Re: the Simon Bruni tweet it does represent a strand of left-wing default anti-British thought and probably reflects JC's views at least before he became leader. However, I can see no relation to the Remain/Leave axis of any significance.
I can claim an element of neutrality regarding the World cup as football is of zero interest to me. Most of the players are over-hyped, over-sexed and over-paid whatever their racial, class or religious backgrounds.
There may be a connection yet to uncovered between Mr Bruni and Emily Thornbury of course. Get on it Guido!
Labour has also called for a bank holiday to celebrate England's inevitable victory on Sunday week.
The link with Simon Bruni you have missed is both Bruni and Corbyn are fluent in Spanish.
No rush - there was evidence only yesterday that he has likened support for England with Nazi Germany. I have not the link but it was on here and in some papers. The fluency in Spanish is unconnected with anything relevant.
I think some people might get confused with criticising papers and criticising fans supporting England...
Purely accidental, I'm sure they just didn't read the text of the EDM... for some reason....
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Having said that, I wish the England team well and hope we win, as it matters so much to so many of my fellow countrymen. I might even watch and England final.
I've been deliberately avoiding this topic (except when I get brilliant set-ups for my awesome puns a la Benpointer about the Swedes on the last thread). That is because I am not Emma Dent Coad and don't spend months protesting loudly to show how little I care about something.
However, if I do have a sneaking hope England are not champions it's not because I'm Welsh but because I can't bear the thought of the months and months of obsessing about it that will inevitably follow. Isn't Brexit bad enough?
Re: the Simon Bruni tweet it does represent a strand of left-wing default anti-British thought and probably reflects JC's views at least before he became leader. However, I can see no relation to the Remain/Leave axis of any significance.
I can claim an element of neutrality regarding the World cup as football is of zero interest to me. Most of the players are over-hyped, over-sexed and over-paid whatever their racial, class or religious backgrounds.
There may be a connection yet to uncovered between Mr Bruni and Emily Thornbury of course. Get on it Guido!
Labour has also called for a bank holiday to celebrate England's inevitable victory on Sunday week.
The link with Simon Bruni you have missed is both Bruni and Corbyn are fluent in Spanish.
No rush - there was evidence only yesterday that he has likened support for England with Nazi Germany. I have not the link but it was on here and in some papers. The fluency in Spanish is unconnected with anything relevant.
I think some people might get confused with criticising papers and criticising fans supporting England...
Purely accidental, I'm sure they just didn't read the text of the EDM... for some reason....
Was that the EDM that compared the newspapers to Hitler?
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Re: the Simon Bruni tweet it does represent a strand of left-wing default anti-British thought and probably reflects JC's views at least before he became leader. However, I can see no relation to the Remain/Leave axis of any significance.
I can claim an element of neutrality regarding the World cup as football is of zero interest to me. Most of the players are over-hyped, over-sexed and over-paid whatever their racial, class or religious backgrounds.
There may be a connection yet to uncovered between Mr Bruni and Emily Thornbury of course. Get on it Guido!
Labour has also called for a bank holiday to celebrate England's inevitable victory on Sunday week.
The link with Simon Bruni you have missed is both Bruni and Corbyn are fluent in Spanish.
No rush - there was evidence only yesterday that he has likened support for England with Nazi Germany. I have not the link but it was on here and in some papers. The fluency in Spanish is unconnected with anything relevant.
I think some people might get confused with criticising papers and criticising fans supporting England...
Purely accidental, I'm sure they just didn't read the text of the EDM... for some reason....
Was that the EDM that compared the newspapers to Hitler?
The EDM 'deplores the jingoism and nationalism in sections of the tabloid press... snip... reminiscent of Hitler's use of sport to enhance his evel regime in the 1930s.'
Presumably all of the papers and most of the public were supporting England rather than just sections of the tabloid press... so the natural conclusion would be they were comparing the jingoistic and nationalistic sections of the tabloid press to Hitler's use of sport for bad things.
Admittedly it might have been a sneaky way to declare that they want every British persons first born to die and that they want Netherlands to win the competition but absent of proof of that I think we should go with the actual wording.
Edit: We had a very small amount of rain in South Wales yesterday... not complaining about the lovely weather though, we'll have months of crap weather soon, I love the sun.
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Not an accusation that could be levelled against Formula 1.
A fair few years back I got rather depressed at the level of 'sport' and the amount of politicking in F1. Then I realised that it was not so much a sport, as business masquerading as a sport.
After that revelation I became much happier. Bernie was superb at ensuring there was always a story to fill the media, and ensuring that a great deal of money swilled around the businesses (and some more than others).
F1 is a circus, and Berrnie was the ringmaster. But it is not really a sport in any traditional sense (and that is why I 'like' other branches of motorsport more).
The EDM 'deplores the jingoism and nationalism in sections of the tabloid press... snip... reminiscent of Hitler's use of sport to enhance his evel regime in the 1930s.'
Presumably all of the papers and most of the public were supporting England rather than just sections of the tabloid press... so the natural conclusion would be they were comparing the jingoistic and nationalistic sections of the tabloid press to Hitler's use of sport for bad things.
Admittedly it might have been a sneaky way to declare that they want every British persons first born to die and that they want Netherlands to win the competition but absent of proof of that I think we should go with the actual wording.
Edit: We had a very small amount of rain in South Wales yesterday... not complaining about the lovely weather though, we'll have months of crap weather soon, I love the sun.
That EDM is terrible, and the names who signed it are sadly unsurprising. Your defence of it is also rather stupid.
And if its a choice of Mr Nice Guy and a QF defeat or a braggart who wins the WC ?
The biggest braggart I've seen as a football manager was Brian Clough but fans loved him and he was said to be the 'peoples choice' to be England manager.
Braggarts are idolised if they are able to make good their brags on your behalf.
The key point is delivery. If you do that you move beyond braggart status.
In any case, Southgate has delivered: he’s built a team that makes English people feel good about themselves and their country. That is not an achievement to be sniffed at given how rarely it has happened.
Yes, I agree. Southgate has built a team with a certain likeability that has been absent in England teams for years. A bit of harmless sporting patriotism doesn't go amis at a time when jingoism over Brexit is the staple.
Most of us, whatever our political views, like to feel part of something bigger than ourselves. It can’t be mandated from on high (get behind this or that, you traitors), it has to come from within. And just for a while, perhaps because of everything else that is happening, the England team is having that effect. It reflects things about our country that we like. Of course, it will not last, but we should enjoy it while we can. International sport does this like few other things can.
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Not an accusation that could be levelled against Formula 1.
Indeed!
For all their corruption and dark arts, FIFA and Putin's Russia have put on a great show.
Partly because of their dark arts. Have you noticed the complete absence of the universally-feared Russian football hooligans? Not to mention the remarkable fitness and stamina of the Russian team.
The EDM 'deplores the jingoism and nationalism in sections of the tabloid press... snip... reminiscent of Hitler's use of sport to enhance his evel regime in the 1930s.'
Presumably all of the papers and most of the public were supporting England rather than just sections of the tabloid press... so the natural conclusion would be they were comparing the jingoistic and nationalistic sections of the tabloid press to Hitler's use of sport for bad things.
Admittedly it might have been a sneaky way to declare that they want every British persons first born to die and that they want Netherlands to win the competition but absent of proof of that I think we should go with the actual wording.
Edit: We had a very small amount of rain in South Wales yesterday... not complaining about the lovely weather though, we'll have months of crap weather soon, I love the sun.
That EDM is terrible, and the names who signed it are sadly unsurprising. Your defence of it is also rather stupid.
I realise logic isn't one of your strong points but claiming that sections of the tabloid press means general support of England is a bit of a stretch....
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Not an accusation that could be levelled against Formula 1.
Indeed!
For all their corruption and dark arts, FIFA and Putin's Russia have put on a great show.
Partly because of their dark arts. Have you noticed the complete absence of the universally-feared Russian football hooligans? Not to mention the remarkable fitness and stamina of the Russian team.
The EDM 'deplores the jingoism and nationalism in sections of the tabloid press... snip... reminiscent of Hitler's use of sport to enhance his evel regime in the 1930s.'
Presumably all of the papers and most of the public were supporting England rather than just sections of the tabloid press... so the natural conclusion would be they were comparing the jingoistic and nationalistic sections of the tabloid press to Hitler's use of sport for bad things.
Admittedly it might have been a sneaky way to declare that they want every British persons first born to die and that they want Netherlands to win the competition but absent of proof of that I think we should go with the actual wording.
Edit: We had a very small amount of rain in South Wales yesterday... not complaining about the lovely weather though, we'll have months of crap weather soon, I love the sun.
That EDM is terrible, and the names who signed it are sadly unsurprising. Your defence of it is also rather stupid.
It's quite amusing to see that Ken Livingstone who has just been expelled from Labour for essentially Fascism and Holocaust Denial, signed that motion.
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Not an accusation that could be levelled against Formula 1.
Indeed!
For all their corruption and dark arts, FIFA and Putin's Russia have put on a great show.
Partly because of their dark arts. Have you noticed the complete absence of the universally-feared Russian football hooligans? Not to mention the remarkable fitness and stamina of the Russian team.
And if its a choice of Mr Nice Guy and a QF defeat or a braggart who wins the WC ?
The biggest braggart I've seen as a football manager was Brian Clough but fans loved him and he was said to be the 'peoples choice' to be England manager.
Braggarts are idolised if they are able to make good their brags on your behalf.
The key point is delivery. If you do that you move beyond braggart status.
In any case, Southgate has delivered: he’s built a team that makes English people feel good about themselves and their country. That is not an achievement to be sniffed at given how rarely it has happened.
Yes, I agree. Southgate has built a team with a certain likeability that has been absent in England teams for years. A bit of harmless sporting patriotism doesn't go amis at a time when jingoism over Brexit is the staple.
Most of us, whatever our political views, like to feel part of something bigger than ourselves. It can’t be mandated from on high (get behind this or that, you traitors), it has to come from within. And just for a while, perhaps because of everything else that is happening, the England team is having that effect. It reflects things about our country that we like. Of course, it will not last, but we should enjoy it while we can. International sport does this like few other things can.
I agree: many (most?) people like to b part of a 'club' or 'group'. Something bigger to belong to. It could be a church, or a club. It could be working as a volunteer at the local charity shop, or cheering on your team. Or several such things.
TBH, I think I'm an exception, and know that Mrs J is. I think this is why my main hobby is such a solitary one, and Mrs J has assimilated so well into the UK.
The only sport I really follow are various strands of motorsport, and I don't really have any 'favourite' teams or drivers - though I do quite like a couple of teams where acquaintances work.
(I am not saying I'm in any way better, or worse, for this)
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Not an accusation that could be levelled against Formula 1.
Indeed!
For all their corruption and dark arts, FIFA and Putin's Russia have put on a great show.
Partly because of their dark arts. Have you noticed the complete absence of the universally-feared Russian football hooligans? Not to mention the remarkable fitness and stamina of the Russian team.
It appears that the men in dark glasses have had a long word in the ear of the local football ‘fans’ with regard to any trouble while the world’s TV cameras are in town. I’m sure normal ‘service’ will be resumed as the Russian local leagues restart in a month or so, once all the foreigners have left town.
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
The EDM 'deplores the jingoism and nationalism in sections of the tabloid press... snip... reminiscent of Hitler's use of sport to enhance his evel regime in the 1930s.'
Presumably all of the papers and most of the public were supporting England rather than just sections of the tabloid press... so the natural conclusion would be they were comparing the jingoistic and nationalistic sections of the tabloid press to Hitler's use of sport for bad things.
Admittedly it might have been a sneaky way to declare that they want every British persons first born to die and that they want Netherlands to win the competition but absent of proof of that I think we should go with the actual wording.
Edit: We had a very small amount of rain in South Wales yesterday... not complaining about the lovely weather though, we'll have months of crap weather soon, I love the sun.
That EDM is terrible, and the names who signed it are sadly unsurprising. Your defence of it is also rather stupid.
I realise logic isn't one of your strong points but claiming that sections of the tabloid press means general support of England is a bit of a stretch....
I agree: many (most?) people like to b part of a 'club' or 'group'. Something bigger to belong to. It could be a church, or a club. It could be working as a volunteer at the local charity shop, or cheering on your team. Or several such things.
TBH, I think I'm an exception, and know that Mrs J is. I think this is why my main hobby is such a solitary one, and Mrs J has assimilated so well into the UK.
The only sport I really follow are various strands of motorsport, and I don't really have any 'favourite' teams or drivers - though I do quite like a couple of teams where acquaintances work.
(I am not saying I'm in any way better, or worse, for this)
It's an interesting thing and your attitude is becoming more common as the ability to be part of an internet community (like PB) has diminished the perceived need to be part of a joint local activity. Many mass-participation sports are in decline, as are traditional gathering points like pubs. Local newspapers struggle partly because many people genuinely don't care whether church X is having a bazaar or council Y is pondering library opening hours.
For football, there's polling showing that more than half the population aren't very interested, but a successful run in the World Cup does draw in some of them to get involved in the fun (as well as provoking some contrarian reactions from people alienated by rah-rah patriotism).
An interesting view of the England vs Colombia match from the Danes. My son, who lives in Copenhagen says the locals were disgusted by the Colombians' cheating, and began cheering the English.
However, they wondered why the South Americans didn't concentrate on football instead because in the second half, they showed they could play the game better than we could. I can understand that but "the English, the English, the English are best. I wouldn't give you tuppence for all of the rest."
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Not an accusation that could be levelled against Formula 1.
Indeed!
For all their corruption and dark arts, FIFA and Putin's Russia have put on a great show.
Partly because of their dark arts. Have you noticed the complete absence of the universally-feared Russian football hooligans? Not to mention the remarkable fitness and stamina of the Russian team.
Does football have drug testing?
As Lance once observed; a drug test is basically an IQ test.
I did predict to some of my friends that I thought the predicted 'trouble' aspect in Russia might be being over-played. French or British rozzers and the prospect of a night in jail might be in a different league to Putin's henchmen with a PR coup to maintain.
The EDM 'deplores the jingoism and nationalism in sections of the tabloid press... snip... reminiscent of Hitler's use of sport to enhance his evel regime in the 1930s.'
Presumably all of the papers and most of the public were supporting England rather than just sections of the tabloid press... so the natural conclusion would be they were comparing the jingoistic and nationalistic sections of the tabloid press to Hitler's use of sport for bad things.
Admittedly it might have been a sneaky way to declare that they want every British persons first born to die and that they want Netherlands to win the competition but absent of proof of that I think we should go with the actual wording.
Edit: We had a very small amount of rain in South Wales yesterday... not complaining about the lovely weather though, we'll have months of crap weather soon, I love the sun.
That EDM is terrible, and the names who signed it are sadly unsurprising. Your defence of it is also rather stupid.
I realise logic isn't one of your strong points but claiming that sections of the tabloid press means general support of England is a bit of a stretch....
That's not what I'm claiming.
You said my defence of it is stupid.
This is the original comment I responded to. 'No rush - there was evidence only yesterday that he has likened support for England with Nazi Germany.'
The crux of my defence is the fact the EDM mentions sections of the tabloid press which does not mean all supporters of England.
If my argument is stupid it must be because the crux of it, that sections of the tabloid press doesn't mean general support for England, is wrong. That clearly isn't wrong.
You can of course say Corbvn / The left / These MPs secretly want England to fail because they hate England, but anyone can accuse their opponents of secretly wanting bad things, the statement I originally answered is not proven by that EDM, I'm not sure that is really debatable.
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Not an accusation that could be levelled against Formula 1.
Indeed!
For all their corruption and dark arts, FIFA and Putin's Russia have put on a great show.
Partly because of their dark arts. Have you noticed the complete absence of the universally-feared Russian football hooligans? Not to mention the remarkable fitness and stamina of the Russian team.
Does football have drug testing?
As Lance once observed; a drug test is basically an IQ test.
Hi Dura. Who's the new avatar? Looks like something from Buffy (not Sarah or Alyson, obviously)!
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Midlands-Yorkshire border area .. nowt.
And the rain forecast yesterday for us later today has now been deleted from the forecast. We’re going away on Sunday and my wife is being very negative about how the garden will look when we get back. The positive is that the lawn won’t have grown too much!
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Midlands-Yorkshire border area .. nowt.
And the rain forecast yesterday for us later today has now been deleted from the forecast. We’re going away on Sunday and my wife is being very negative about how the garden will look when we get back. The positive is that the lawn won’t have grown too much!
I'm not even going away and my garden's suffering!
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Midlands-Yorkshire border area .. nowt.
And the rain forecast yesterday for us later today has now been deleted from the forecast. We’re going away on Sunday and my wife is being very negative about how the garden will look when we get back. The positive is that the lawn won’t have grown too much!
The positive is the panels have produced 164 Kilowatts in the last week
The solar panels are certainly doing well, so thanks to that wonderful Ed Miliband who decided that HMG had more money than sense, but the lawn has been reduced to straw.
Here in the NW of England, the arsonists are having a field day.
The solar panels are certainly doing well, so thanks to that wonderful Ed Miliband who decided that HMG had more money than sense, but the lawn has been reduced to straw.
Here in the NW of England, the arsonists are having a field day.
Ba-boom Tish!
You're right about the solar panels though. I've hardly used any mains power in the last month.
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Midlands-Yorkshire border area .. nowt.
And the rain forecast yesterday for us later today has now been deleted from the forecast. We’re going away on Sunday and my wife is being very negative about how the garden will look when we get back. The positive is that the lawn won’t have grown too much!
The positive is the panels have produced 164 Kilowatts in the last week
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Midlands-Yorkshire border area .. nowt.
And the rain forecast yesterday for us later today has now been deleted from the forecast. We’re going away on Sunday and my wife is being very negative about how the garden will look when we get back. The positive is that the lawn won’t have grown too much!
The positive is the panels have produced 164 Kilowatts in the last week
Indeed; I thought it would have been a good idea to fit them but there were other considerations.
The solar panels are certainly doing well, so thanks to that wonderful Ed Miliband who decided that HMG had more money than sense, but the lawn has been reduced to straw.
Here in the NW of England, the arsonists are having a field day.
If caught, some of them are going to have a LONG time to ‘repent at leisure’!
This is the original comment I responded to. 'No rush - there was evidence only yesterday that he has likened support for England with Nazi Germany.'
The crux of my defence is the fact the EDM mentions sections of the tabloid press which does not mean all supporters of England.
If my argument is stupid it must be because the crux of it, that sections of the tabloid press doesn't mean general support for England, is wrong. That clearly isn't wrong.
You can of course say Corbvn / The left / These MPs secretly want England to fail because they hate England, but anyone can accuse their opponents of secretly wanting bad things, the statement I originally answered is not proven by that EDM, I'm not sure that is really debatable.
Oh, come on. Your last paragraph is just ridiculous hyperbole, and the rest is almost as bad.
I'll put it simply: 'Hitler' is rather controversial. He can be discussed sanely and rationally, but care needs to be taken. You really need to take care when comparing things, institutions or people to Hitler. This is more so if you are a politician, and doubly if you support, and support in the future, other dictatorial regimes just because you agree with their political leanings.
That EDM also fails to see which 'sections' of the tabloid press the are accusing. The proposers and signatories of that EDM knew full well what they were doing, and how their supporters would react.
As is sadly often the case, you are defending stupidity stupidly.
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Midlands-Yorkshire border area .. nowt.
Indeed, I can't remember anything like it.
The weather turned warm at the end of April for the Tour de Yorkshire and I'm not sure if it has rained since then.
Two more weeks of hot, sunny and dry on the way according to the BBC.
This sums up Brexit (or at least May's Brexit) for me. So sad.
This comment BTL at The Times seems appropriate
You can but worry about the future of Democracy in the UK.
Brexit has to be it’s low point.
A mish mash of interests resolved by one simple vote apparently with no option for correction, with no time limit, no safety valve and no measurement system, based on half a business case.
I’m not clear this is any sort of Democracy.
It feels more like playing a game called Democracy with a bad hand rather than it being the real thing.
So it is only under Tory PMs that we win penalty shoot-outs:
1996 v. Spain (PM Major) 2018 v. Colombia (PM May)
Bloody hell Sunil, have you been resaerching that for the past 24 hours? - hope you took some down time
Especially given the fact that a stunning 100% of our WC wins came under a Labour government.
There is still time. Friday's Chequers meeting could see mass resignations from the Cabinet, next week a vote of no confidence triggered by JRM's ERG, May resigns, and Her Majesty sends for Jezza on Friday 13th, just in time for Sunday's World Cup Final.
I wonder if Corbyn would consider doing a Mandela and turning up in an England shirt?*
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Midlands-Yorkshire border area .. nowt.
Indeed, I can't remember anything like it.
The weather turned warm at the end of April for the Tour de Yorkshire and I'm not sure if it has rained since then.
Two more weeks of hot, sunny and dry on the way according to the BBC.
I don't like football, and think it's a corrupt cesspit from the very top down.
Not an accusation that could be levelled against Formula 1.
Indeed!
For all their corruption and dark arts, FIFA and Putin's Russia have put on a great show.
Partly because of their dark arts. Have you noticed the complete absence of the universally-feared Russian football hooligans? Not to mention the remarkable fitness and stamina of the Russian team.
Does football have drug testing?
As Lance once observed; a drug test is basically an IQ test.
Hi Dura. Who's the new avatar? Looks like something from Buffy (not Sarah or Alyson, obviously)!
Gavin Alexander Williamson MP, CBE and a right twat.
Democracy for me doesn't mean getting what you want. It means getting what most people prefer. Your particular preferences/prejudices do not get special treatment.
Democracy for me doesn't mean getting what you want. It means getting what most people prefer. Your particular preferences/prejudices do not get special treatment.
The problem with that statement is that the Brexit we end up with is not what most people prefer.
So by your definition Brexit is not democratic. On that we agree.
Historians are on dangerous ground when they try to make these kind of leaps.
British foreign policy was predicated on avoiding domination of the continent by a single power because of the military and economic threat to our independence that would represent. If we entangle ourselves in a continental union to the extant that we have ceased to be an independent state, as Mr Harris appears to desire, that argument is moot.
This sums up Brexit (or at least May's Brexit) for me. So sad.
This comment BTL at The Times seems appropriate
You can but worry about the future of Democracy in the UK.
Brexit has to be it’s low point.
A mish mash of interests resolved by one simple vote apparently with no option for correction, with no time limit, no safety valve and no measurement system, based on half a business case.
I’m not clear this is any sort of Democracy.
It feels more like playing a game called Democracy with a bad hand rather than it being the real thing.
And your solution is.......?
I'm all for democrats bemoaning the referendum but it was the result of the wholly inadequate state of British democracy.
Historians are on dangerous ground when they try to make these kind of leaps.
British foreign policy was predicated on avoiding domination of the continent by a single power because of the military and economic threat to our independence that would represent. If we entangle ourselves in a continental union to the extant that we have ceased to be an independent state, as Mr Harris appears to desire, that argument is moot.
We ceased to be an independent power years ago, before we joined the EU.
We had a General Election. May pitched a vision of Brexit, and lost her majority. Where is the democracy is pursuing that?
Even the fuckers who campaigned their entire career for Brexit likes Hannan and Carswell are pitching a vision of Brexit they can't get, and bemoaning whatever we will get
Whatever we end up with will not be "what most people prefer" (sic)
Historians are on dangerous ground when they try to make these kind of leaps.
British foreign policy was predicated on avoiding domination of the continent by a single power because of the military and economic threat to our independence that would represent. If we entangle ourselves in a continental union to the extant that we have ceased to be an independent state, as Mr Harris appears to desire, that argument is moot.
We ceased to be an independent power years ago, before we joined the EU.
One of my fears about Brexit is that it will be incredibly difficult to be an 'independent' power - we will be too small to cope with the might of other large countries and groupings - e.g. the US, China, and the EU. Basically our bargaining power will be reduced.
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
It was clearly raining very hard on the ITV ‘NHS at 70’ singalong (or whatever it was called last night. Which I think was live. And Eldest Granddaughter reported rain in East Yorks when she rang to check on her Granny yesterday midday.
Midlands-Yorkshire border area .. nowt.
Indeed, I can't remember anything like it.
The weather turned warm at the end of April for the Tour de Yorkshire and I'm not sure if it has rained since then.
Two more weeks of hot, sunny and dry on the way according to the BBC.
Christ, think of what it might do to the existing fervid, swollen-headed, flag-waving nationalists.
lol. Fair point.
But then, imagine what such footballing success might do to the more atavistic of your Scotch Nationalist friends. Really. The kind of guys that march on Bannockburn with Saltires and snarls. Luckily, the chances of Scotland ever progressing beyond a thrashing by the Scilly Isles are about 0.0000%, but still.
Imagine.
Decades of football defeat have expunged triumphalism from the Scottish psyche. England otoh always seems to be a rice pudding skin (or penalty shoot out) away from swagger.
The thing is, England DESERVE to swagger, you guys just don't. Sorry. You come from a sometimes very beautiful, if often rather bleak, post-industrial little country which failed to colonise PANAMA. Let that sink in (and I speak as a Cornishman, so I know what insignificance allied with peripheral beauty feels like)
England, a mid sized European country, created the greatest empire in history, made the world speak its own language, invented the industrial revolution, significantly helped to win the most important war in human times, and even now arguably exerts more soft power, per capita, than any country its size.
England will never again rule the world. But the world was ruled by us, and now speaks our language, uses our laws, and - by the by - plays our sports. The English are allowed to brag, just a tad. Though I can see how it irritates the fuck out of inferior or unluckier neighbours, such as the Scotch.
Anyway, soon we will all be ruled by robots and this will ALL be irrelevant.
Let's hope we Scotch are never reduced to living on past glories and getting current thrills from jizzing over 'inferior or unluckier neighbours'. Indy wouldn't be worth a fig in that case.
I also think Scots were full partners in the Union at the time. Great thinkers on both sides of the border.
Full partners you say? Happy days.
'During the debate Mr Mundell took issue with a description of Scotland as an equal partner in the United Kingdom. Responding he said: “Scotland is not a partner of the United Kingdom, Scotland is a part of a United Kingdom.”'
If we entangle ourselves in a continental union to the extant that we have ceased to be an independent state
We didn't
We were always Sovereign...
Independence and sovereignty are not the same.
Independence is about freedom of action, which we manifestly don’t have on a host of policy areas as part of the EU. Sovereignty is about supreme authority, and while of course EU members retain sovereignty de jure by virtue of their right to withdraw from the EU under Article 50, members of the Eurozone have forfeited sovereignty de facto because they could only do so at the cost of blowing up their economies.
All the politicians and experts are wrong yet again because they say we can't.
Its a pity that Cameron didn't have you advising him because you could have told him how to end FoM and he could have fulfilled his 'no ifs no buts' immigration pledge, he would still be PM and we wouldn't be leaving the EU.
This is the original comment I responded to. 'No rush - there was evidence only yesterday that he has likened support for England with Nazi Germany.'
The crux of my defence is the fact the EDM mentions sections of the tabloid press which does not mean all supporters of England.
If my argument is stupid it must be because the crux of it, that sections of the tabloid press doesn't mean general support for England, is wrong. That clearly isn't wrong.
You can of course say Corbvn / The left / These MPs secretly want England to fail because they hate England, but anyone can accuse their opponents of secretly wanting bad things, the statement I originally answered is not proven by that EDM, I'm not sure that is really debatable.
Oh, come on. Your last paragraph is just ridiculous hyperbole, and the rest is almost as bad.
I'll put it simply: 'Hitler' is rather controversial. He can be discussed sanely and rationally, but care needs to be taken. You really need to take care when comparing things, institutions or people to Hitler. This is more so if you are a politician, and doubly if you support, and support in the future, other dictatorial regimes just because you agree with their political leanings.
That EDM also fails to see which 'sections' of the tabloid press the are accusing. The proposers and signatories of that EDM knew full well what they were doing, and how their supporters would react.
As is sadly often the case, you are defending stupidity stupidly.
Oh, and they cannot spell 'evel'. LOL.
So your argument is that they did secretly mean general support for England and not sections of the tabloid press as the EDM said.
Ok sure, do you have any proof of that other than just, you know left = bad so it must be true?!
I don't mind people being criticised for what they said, did or put their name too but criticising them for what you secretly think they meant is bordering on conspiracy theorist.
This is the original comment I responded to. 'No rush - there was evidence only yesterday that he has likened support for England with Nazi Germany.'
The crux of my defence is the fact the EDM mentions sections of the tabloid press which does not mean all supporters of England.
If my argument is stupid it must be because the crux of it, that sections of the tabloid press doesn't mean general support for England, is wrong. That clearly isn't wrong.
You can of course say Corbvn / The left / These MPs secretly want England to fail because they hate England, but anyone can accuse their opponents of secretly wanting bad things, the statement I originally answered is not proven by that EDM, I'm not sure that is really debatable.
Oh, come on. Your last paragraph is just ridiculous hyperbole, and the rest is almost as bad.
I'll put it simply: 'Hitler' is rather controversial. He can be discussed sanely and rationally, but care needs to be taken. You really need to take care when comparing things, institutions or people to Hitler. This is more so if you are a politician, and doubly if you support, and support in the future, other dictatorial regimes just because you agree with their political leanings.
That EDM also fails to see which 'sections' of the tabloid press the are accusing. The proposers and signatories of that EDM knew full well what they were doing, and how their supporters would react.
As is sadly often the case, you are defending stupidity stupidly.
Oh, and they cannot spell 'evel'. LOL.
So your argument is that they did secretly mean general support for England and not sections of the tabloid press as the EDM said.
Ok sure, do you have any proof of that other than just, you know left = bad so it must be true?!
I don't mind people being criticised for what they said, did or put their name too but criticising them for what you secretly think they meant is bordering on conspiracy theorist.
I'm pretty sure the other JJ isn't saying that at all. Anyone with reading comprehension skills can see it. The argument has moved well beyond your pointing out that someone had wrongly referenced the edm as being against supporters, not the papers as it in fact was. He's saying stop defending the edm at all. It was a stupid publicity stunt by the loony left, as proved by their needless and moronic comparison of the press to Nazis.
Oh, come on. Your last paragraph is just ridiculous hyperbole, and the rest is almost as bad.
I'll put it simply: 'Hitler' is rather controversial. He can be discussed sanely and rationally, but care needs to be taken. You really need to take care when comparing things, institutions or people to Hitler. This is more so if you are a politician, and doubly if you support, and support in the future, other dictatorial regimes just because you agree with their political leanings.
That EDM also fails to see which 'sections' of the tabloid press the are accusing. The proposers and signatories of that EDM knew full well what they were doing, and how their supporters would react.
As is sadly often the case, you are defending stupidity stupidly.
Oh, and they cannot spell 'evel'. LOL.
So your argument is that they did secretly mean general support for England and not sections of the tabloid press as the EDM said.
Ok sure, do you have any proof of that other than just, you know left = bad so it must be true?!
I don't mind people being criticised for what they said, did or put their name too but criticising them for what you secretly think they meant is bordering on conspiracy theorist.
I'm pretty sure the other JJ isn't saying that at all. Anyone with reading comprehension skills can see it. The argument has moved well beyond your pointing out that someone had wrongly referenced the edm as being against supporters, not the papers as it in fact was. He's saying stop defending the edm at all. It was a stupid publicity stunt by the loony left, as proved by their needless and moronic comparison of the press to Nazis.
And your man signed it.
Where did I ever disagree with any of that? I may disagree with some parts but where did I say that?
I was pointing out the stupidity of saying that Corbyn is a hypocrite for supporting England when he has likened supporting England with Nazi Germany.
Because he has never actually done that.
If you me and Jossia agree on that then my 'stupid' argument is actually quite accurate.
Comments
Purely accidental, I'm sure they just didn't read the text of the EDM... for some reason....
For all their corruption and dark arts, FIFA and Putin's Russia have put on a great show.
However, if I do have a sneaking hope England are not champions it's not because I'm Welsh but because I can't bear the thought of the months and months of obsessing about it that will inevitably follow. Isn't Brexit bad enough?
'Melting road' damages cars in Australia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-44720166
I hope we get some rain soon. My garden's very parched and the water butts are almost empty.
"There was no chemical attack"
"There's no such thing as novichok"
"There is novichok, but this wasn't it"
"It was novichok but it wasn't us"
Presumably all of the papers and most of the public were supporting England rather than just sections of the tabloid press... so the natural conclusion would be they were comparing the jingoistic and nationalistic sections of the tabloid press to Hitler's use of sport for bad things.
Admittedly it might have been a sneaky way to declare that they want every British persons first born to die and that they want Netherlands to win the competition but absent of proof of that I think we should go with the actual wording.
Edit: We had a very small amount of rain in South Wales yesterday... not complaining about the lovely weather though, we'll have months of crap weather soon, I love the sun.
After that revelation I became much happier. Bernie was superb at ensuring there was always a story to fill the media, and ensuring that a great deal of money swilled around the businesses (and some more than others).
F1 is a circus, and Berrnie was the ringmaster. But it is not really a sport in any traditional sense (and that is why I 'like' other branches of motorsport more).
I thought that 'evel' was your spelling mistake, but, no:
https://www.parliament.uk/edm/1995-96/1048
LOL.
Cue jokes about Beckham...
TBH, I think I'm an exception, and know that Mrs J is. I think this is why my main hobby is such a solitary one, and Mrs J has assimilated so well into the UK.
The only sport I really follow are various strands of motorsport, and I don't really have any 'favourite' teams or drivers - though I do quite like a couple of teams where acquaintances work.
(I am not saying I'm in any way better, or worse, for this)
For football, there's polling showing that more than half the population aren't very interested, but a successful run in the World Cup does draw in some of them to get involved in the fun (as well as provoking some contrarian reactions from people alienated by rah-rah patriotism).
However, they wondered why the South Americans didn't concentrate on football instead because in the second half, they showed they could play the game better than we could. I can understand that but "the English, the English, the English are best. I wouldn't give you tuppence for all of the rest."
https://twitter.com/nickmacpherson2/status/1014760666463424512?s=21
As Lance once observed; a drug test is basically an IQ test.
I did predict to some of my friends that I thought the predicted 'trouble' aspect in Russia might be being over-played. French or British rozzers and the prospect of a night in jail might be in a different league to Putin's henchmen with a PR coup to maintain.
This is the original comment I responded to.
'No rush - there was evidence only yesterday that he has likened support for England with Nazi Germany.'
The crux of my defence is the fact the EDM mentions sections of the tabloid press which does not mean all supporters of England.
If my argument is stupid it must be because the crux of it, that sections of the tabloid press doesn't mean general support for England, is wrong. That clearly isn't wrong.
You can of course say Corbvn / The left / These MPs secretly want England to fail because they hate England, but anyone can accuse their opponents of secretly wanting bad things, the statement I originally answered is not proven by that EDM, I'm not sure that is really debatable.
The positive is that the lawn won’t have grown too much!
Here in the NW of England, the arsonists are having a field day.
You're right about the solar panels though. I've hardly used any mains power in the last month.
https://twitter.com/robert___harris/status/1014594402373832705?s=21
I'll put it simply: 'Hitler' is rather controversial. He can be discussed sanely and rationally, but care needs to be taken. You really need to take care when comparing things, institutions or people to Hitler. This is more so if you are a politician, and doubly if you support, and support in the future, other dictatorial regimes just because you agree with their political leanings.
That EDM also fails to see which 'sections' of the tabloid press the are accusing. The proposers and signatories of that EDM knew full well what they were doing, and how their supporters would react.
As is sadly often the case, you are defending stupidity stupidly.
Oh, and they cannot spell 'evel'.
The weather turned warm at the end of April for the Tour de Yorkshire and I'm not sure if it has rained since then.
Two more weeks of hot, sunny and dry on the way according to the BBC.
I'm surprised we're not getting drought warnings.
You can but worry about the future of Democracy in the UK.
Brexit has to be it’s low point.
A mish mash of interests resolved by one simple vote apparently with no option for correction, with no time limit, no safety valve and no measurement system, based on half a business case.
I’m not clear this is any sort of Democracy.
It feels more like playing a game called Democracy with a bad hand rather than it being the real thing.
*if England get there of course.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-44621769
But we've had some years of good rainfall so reserves are high. No need to panic yet.
Democracy for me doesn't mean getting what you want. It means getting what most people prefer. Your particular preferences/prejudices do not get special treatment.
So by your definition Brexit is not democratic. On that we agree.
British foreign policy was predicated on avoiding domination of the continent by a single power because of the military and economic threat to our independence that would represent. If we entangle ourselves in a continental union to the extant that we have ceased to be an independent state, as Mr Harris appears to desire, that argument is moot.
We were always Sovereign...
I'm all for democrats bemoaning the referendum but it was the result of the wholly inadequate state of British democracy.
Because if we can't then we're not sovereign.
We had a General Election. May pitched a vision of Brexit, and lost her majority. Where is the democracy is pursuing that?
Even the fuckers who campaigned their entire career for Brexit likes Hannan and Carswell are pitching a vision of Brexit they can't get, and bemoaning whatever we will get
Whatever we end up with will not be "what most people prefer" (sic)
I hope I'm wrong about that.
So I'll ask the question again:
Can the UK today end FoM from the EU ?
If the answer is no then the UK isn't sovereign.
So I'll ask the question for a third time:
Can the UK today end FoM from the EU ?
If the answer is no then the UK isn't sovereign.
Scotland is partners with *England*
Both are part of the United Kingdom
Neither are partners with the United Kingdom
Independence is about freedom of action, which we manifestly don’t have on a host of policy areas as part of the EU. Sovereignty is about supreme authority, and while of course EU members retain sovereignty de jure by virtue of their right to withdraw from the EU under Article 50, members of the Eurozone have forfeited sovereignty de facto because they could only do so at the cost of blowing up their economies.
All the politicians and experts are wrong yet again because they say we can't.
Its a pity that Cameron didn't have you advising him because you could have told him how to end FoM and he could have fulfilled his 'no ifs no buts' immigration pledge, he would still be PM and we wouldn't be leaving the EU.
Go Raheem!
Ok sure, do you have any proof of that other than just, you know left = bad so it must be true?!
I don't mind people being criticised for what they said, did or put their name too but criticising them for what you secretly think they meant is bordering on conspiracy theorist.
And your man signed it.
I was pointing out the stupidity of saying that Corbyn is a hypocrite for supporting England when he has likened supporting England with Nazi Germany.
Because he has never actually done that.
If you me and Jossia agree on that then my 'stupid' argument is actually quite accurate.