Mr. Max, quite. Picking up boats just off the Libyan shore and ferrying undocumented migrants with no pretence of following the legal process for migration and then calling it a 'crisis' is ridiculous. It isn't a crisis. It's a choice.
Why is it so hard for the law to treat these NGOs and "charities" as what they are - people traffickers?
Well Salvini seems like he's just done it. I think there is going to be an almighty reckoning over this in the next few weeks. Spain won't be able to handle their new open ports position for long and they will have to take the same action, Greece will most likely follow suit which effectively closes the external European border against the wishes of the richer northern EU nations from where most of the "charity" boats originate.
I note that one barely ever sees an arab or berber amongst the migrants departing from Libya.
Indeed. The action necessary is simple (but tough to follow through on). Arrest the charity workers, seize the boats, load up the migrants and dump them back on the coast of Libya and pay the Libyans off. Have a massive PR campaign across Africa that this is the end result and all that will happen is they will be $5000 worse off and stuck somewhere in Libya if they try and illegally enter Europe.
What crime have the charity workers committed?
Make an agreement with Lybia that the migrants must be dropped off back there and then compel the charities to do that, but until then the charities are following our laws not breaking them.
The allegation is that the NGO;s are in contact with the smugglers via mobile phone. The people smugglers phone the NGO with the position of the migrants. The NGO ships are tracked by AIS and the Italian authorities noted they always seem to sail in a direct line to the pick up point, no searching required. If this is going on then they are just another link in the people smuggling network.
Mr. Max, quite. Picking up boats just off the Libyan shore and ferrying undocumented migrants with no pretence of following the legal process for migration and then calling it a 'crisis' is ridiculous. It isn't a crisis. It's a choice.
Why is it so hard for the law to treat these NGOs and "charities" as what they are - people traffickers?
Well Salvini seems like he's just done it. I think there is going to be an almighty reckoning over this in the next few weeks. Spain won't be able to handle their new open ports position for long and they will have to take the same action, Greece will most likely follow suit which effectively closes the external European border against the wishes of the richer northern EU nations from where most of the "charity" boats originate.
I note that one barely ever sees an arab or berber amongst the migrants departing from Libya.
Indeed. The action necessary is simple (but tough to follow through on). Arrest the charity workers, seize the boats, load up the migrants and dump them back on the coast of Libya and pay the Libyans off. Have a massive PR campaign across Africa that this is the end result and all that will happen is they will be $5000 worse off and stuck somewhere in Libya if they try and illegally enter Europe.
What crime have the charity workers committed?
Make an agreement with Lybia that the migrants must be dropped off back there and then compel the charities to do that, but until then the charities are following our laws not breaking them.
Mr. Max, quite. Picking up boats just off the Libyan shore and ferrying undocumented migrants with no pretence of following the legal process for migration and then calling it a 'crisis' is ridiculous. It isn't a crisis. It's a choice.
Why is it so hard for the law to treat these NGOs and "charities" as what they are - people traffickers?
Well Salvini seems like he's just done it. I think there is going to be an almighty reckoning over this in the next few weeks. Spain won't be able to handle their new open ports position for long and they will have to take the same action, Greece will most likely follow suit which effectively closes the external European border against the wishes of the richer northern EU nations from where most of the "charity" boats originate.
I note that one barely ever sees an arab or berber amongst the migrants departing from Libya.
Indeed. The action necessary is simple (but tough to follow through on). Arrest the charity workers, seize the boats, load up the migrants and dump them back on the coast of Libya and pay the Libyans off. Have a massive PR campaign across Africa that this is the end result and all that will happen is they will be $5000 worse off and stuck somewhere in Libya if they try and illegally enter Europe.
What crime have the charity workers committed?
Make an agreement with Lybia that the migrants must be dropped off back there and then compel the charities to do that, but until then the charities are following our laws not breaking them.
The allegation is that the NGO;s are in contact with the smugglers via mobile phone. The people smugglers phone the NGO with the position of the migrants. The NGO ships are tracked by AIS and the Italian authorities noted they always seem to sail in a direct line to the pick up point, no searching required. If this is going on then they are just another link in the people smuggling network.
The IRA were in contact with the Police during their bombing campaigns with codes to give warnings prior to them acting. Does that mean that the Police were just another link in the IRA's network?
Davis should have quit the moment Theresa said no to planning for the trade/customs cliff edge. He's a fool and he will go down in history as the fall guy if everything goes wrong.
Mr. Max, quite. Picking up boats just off the Libyan shore and ferrying undocumented migrants with no pretence of following the legal process for migration and then calling it a 'crisis' is ridiculous. It isn't a crisis. It's a choice.
Why is it so hard for the law to treat these NGOs and "charities" as what they are - people traffickers?
Well Salvini seems like he's just done it. I think there is going to be an almighty reckoning over this in the next few weeks. Spain won't be able to handle their new open ports position for long and they will have to take the same action, Greece will most likely follow suit which effectively closes the external European border against the wishes of the richer northern EU nations from where most of the "charity" boats originate.
I note that one barely ever sees an arab or berber amongst the migrants departing from Libya.
Indeed. The action necessary is simple (but tough to follow through on). Arrest the charity workers, seize the boats, load up the migrants and dump them back on the coast of Libya and pay the Libyans off. Have a massive PR campaign across Africa that this is the end result and all that will happen is they will be $5000 worse off and stuck somewhere in Libya if they try and illegally enter Europe.
What crime have the charity workers committed?
Make an agreement with Lybia that the migrants must be dropped off back there and then compel the charities to do that, but until then the charities are following our laws not breaking them.
The allegation is that the NGO;s are in contact with the smugglers via mobile phone. The people smugglers phone the NGO with the position of the migrants. The NGO ships are tracked by AIS and the Italian authorities noted they always seem to sail in a direct line to the pick up point, no searching required. If this is going on then they are just another link in the people smuggling network.
The IRA were in contact with the Police during their bombing campaigns with codes to give warnings prior to them acting. Does that mean that the Police were just another link in the IRA's network?
Funny - I was thinking of exactly the same comparison. Decided not to go there to avoid getting people heated. Now I can watch and see whether I was right not to make the comparison.
Boris and Hunt have got Theresa in a terrible fix. The poor woman now has to go grovelling to the captains of industry to clear up their mess. It's demeaning.
Mr. Max, quite. Picking up boats just off the Libyan shore and ferrying undocumented migrants with no pretence of following the legal process for migration and then calling it a 'crisis' is ridiculous. It isn't a crisis. It's a choice.
Why is it so hard for the law to treat these NGOs and "charities" as what they are - people traffickers?
Well Salvini seems like he's just done it. I think there is going to be an almighty reckoning over this in the next few weeks. Spain won't be able to handle their new open ports position for long and they will have to take the same action, Greece will most likely follow suit which effectively closes the external European border against the wishes of the richer northern EU nations from where most of the "charity" boats originate.
I note that one barely ever sees an arab or berber amongst the migrants departing from Libya.
Indeed. The action necessary is simple (but tough to follow through on). Arrest the charity workers, seize the boats, load up the migrants and dump them back on the coast of Libya and pay the Libyans off. Have a massive PR campaign across Africa that this is the end result and all that will happen is they will be $5000 worse off and stuck somewhere in Libya if they try and illegally enter Europe.
What crime have the charity workers committed?
Make an agreement with Lybia that the migrants must be dropped off back there and then compel the charities to do that, but until then the charities are following our laws not breaking them.
The allegation is that the NGO;s are in contact with the smugglers via mobile phone. The people smugglers phone the NGO with the position of the migrants. The NGO ships are tracked by AIS and the Italian authorities noted they always seem to sail in a direct line to the pick up point, no searching required. If this is going on then they are just another link in the people smuggling network.
The IRA were in contact with the Police during their bombing campaigns with codes to give warnings prior to them acting. Does that mean that the Police were just another link in the IRA's network?
The NGO's if taking a call should then notify the authorities that illegal activity is going to take place and by whom, of what is planned, so they can try and stop it or the Libyan cost guard "the proper trained authorities with links to the other emergency services if required), can turn up and deal with it.
Mr. Max, quite. Picking up boats just off the Libyan shore and ferrying undocumented migrants with no pretence of following the legal process for migration and then calling it a 'crisis' is ridiculous. It isn't a crisis. It's a choice.
Why is it so hard for the law to treat these NGOs and "charities" as what they are - people traffickers?
Well Salvini seems like he's just done it. I think there is going to be an almighty reckoning over this in the next few weeks. Spain won't be able to handle their new open ports position for long and they will have to take the same action, Greece will most likely follow suit which effectively closes the external European border against the wishes of the richer northern EU nations from where most of the "charity" boats originate.
I note that one barely ever sees an arab or berber amongst the migrants departing from Libya.
Indeed. The action necessary is simple (but tough to follow through on). Arrest the charity workers, seize the boats, load up the migrants and dump them back on the coast of Libya and pay the Libyans off. Have a massive PR campaign across Africa that this is the end result and all that will happen is they will be $5000 worse off and stuck somewhere in Libya if they try and illegally enter Europe.
What crime have the charity workers committed?
Make an agreement with Lybia that the migrants must be dropped off back there and then compel the charities to do that, but until then the charities are following our laws not breaking them.
The allegation is that the NGO;s are in contact with the smugglers via mobile phone. The people smugglers phone the NGO with the position of the migrants. The NGO ships are tracked by AIS and the Italian authorities noted they always seem to sail in a direct line to the pick up point, no searching required. If this is going on then they are just another link in the people smuggling network.
The IRA were in contact with the Police during their bombing campaigns with codes to give warnings prior to them acting. Does that mean that the Police were just another link in the IRA's network?
Funny - I was thinking of exactly the same comparison. Decided not to go there to avoid getting people heated. Now I can watch and see whether I was right not to make the comparison.
Oh don't worry about Max he is probably down the pub and crowd-posting.
The NGO's if taking a call should then notify the authorities that illegal activity is going to take place and by whom, of what is planned, so they can try and stop it or the Libyan cost guard "the proper trained authorities with links to the other emergency services if required), can turn up and deal with it.
That's one option but its not their only one. Given that our authorities aren't dealing with the situation themselves, the charities doing so is not a problem. If our authorities start dropping people back off in Libya or instructing the charities to do so then that would be different but that's not the case at the moment.
Blame the authorities not the charities. Only the authorities can change any of this.
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
Big businesses are also much more likely to export, or have supply chains that cross borders. Small businesses are less likely to have to worry about that directly.
But if there is no deal then small businesses will find that there is less business overall and that should worry them.
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
Do you mean small businesses or small businesses that don't export?. I'm retired now, but as a small business (just me) I providing services. It was seamless within the EU and not elsewhere. I had a complete nightmare dealing with the USA. Prior to this I worked for a large company and this was prior to the current EU trading arrangements and every time I temporarily exported stuff (eg demo equipment) we ran into problems and it usually went pearshaped.
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
I don't think small businesses are any different to big businesses on this issue. Nobody wants unnecessary regulations, but most are both necessary and desirable. And having them harmonised across the globe is a definite plus - so I don't think there is any bonus from avoiding EU regulations. Pointless bureaucracy is by definition without value, but it is not clear to me why we would have less of it from Westminster than Brussels. If anything I'd say that the EU stuff tends to be less objectionable to my business.
The NGO's if taking a call should then notify the authorities that illegal activity is going to take place and by whom, of what is planned, so they can try and stop it or the Libyan cost guard "the proper trained authorities with links to the other emergency services if required), can turn up and deal with it.
That's one option but its not their only one. Given that our authorities aren't dealing with the situation themselves, the charities doing so is not a problem. If our authorities start dropping people back off in Libya or instructing the charities to do so then that would be different but that's not the case at the moment.
Blame the authorities not the charities. Only the authorities can change any of this.
Alternatively, the charity boats can drop off in Germany or the Netherlands where they are based.
I agree with the Italians, there needs to be an Australian style solution to boat arrivals.
The NGO's if taking a call should then notify the authorities that illegal activity is going to take place and by whom, of what is planned, so they can try and stop it or the Libyan cost guard "the proper trained authorities with links to the other emergency services if required), can turn up and deal with it.
That's one option but its not their only one. Given that our authorities aren't dealing with the situation themselves, the charities doing so is not a problem. If our authorities start dropping people back off in Libya or instructing the charities to do so then that would be different but that's not the case at the moment.
Blame the authorities not the charities. Only the authorities can change any of this.
Alternatively, the charity boats can drop off in Germany or the Netherlands where they are based.
I agree with the Italians, there needs to be an Australian style solution to boat arrivals.
Wow, not someone I expected to agree with! Are you sure you're a Lib Dem?!
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
I don't think small businesses are any different to big businesses on this issue. Nobody wants unnecessary regulations, but most are both necessary and desirable. And having them harmonised across the globe is a definite plus - so I don't think there is any bonus from avoiding EU regulations. Pointless bureaucracy is by definition without value, but it is not clear to me why we would have less of it from Westminster than Brussels. If anything I'd say that the EU stuff tends to be less objectionable to my business.
Yep, we are an SME and EU regulations have not held us back.
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
I don't think small businesses are any different to big businesses on this issue. Nobody wants unnecessary regulations, but most are both necessary and desirable. And having them harmonised across the globe is a definite plus - so I don't think there is any bonus from avoiding EU regulations. Pointless bureaucracy is by definition without value, but it is not clear to me why we would have less of it from Westminster than Brussels. If anything I'd say that the EU stuff tends to be less objectionable to my business.
The NGO's if taking a call should then notify the authorities that illegal activity is going to take place and by whom, of what is planned, so they can try and stop it or the Libyan cost guard "the proper trained authorities with links to the other emergency services if required), can turn up and deal with it.
That's one option but its not their only one. Given that our authorities aren't dealing with the situation themselves, the charities doing so is not a problem. If our authorities start dropping people back off in Libya or instructing the charities to do so then that would be different but that's not the case at the moment.
Blame the authorities not the charities. Only the authorities can change any of this.
Alternatively, the charity boats can drop off in Germany or the Netherlands where they are based.
I agree with the Italians, there needs to be an Australian style solution to boat arrivals.
Wow, not someone I expected to agree with! Are you sure you're a Lib Dem?!
No I'm not. Your own link simply shows who is concerned about Brexit not what the impact will be. Your own link also says that 2/3rds of those responding for exporting SMEs and 5/6ths of those responding on behalf of non-exporting SMEs are not concerned about Brexit.
Considering that Remainers make up 50% of the population it appears that SMEs are less concerned about Brexit than the population as a whole.
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
Do you mean small businesses or small businesses that don't export?. I'm retired now, but as a small business (just me) I providing services. It was seamless within the EU and not elsewhere. I had a complete nightmare dealing with the USA. Prior to this I worked for a large company and this was prior to the current EU trading arrangements and every time I temporarily exported stuff (eg demo equipment) we ran into problems and it usually went pearshaped.
TBH, ‘regulations’ are why small businesses join trade associations and shre in the cost of the lawyers and whatever.
The NGO's if taking a call should then notify the authorities that illegal activity is going to take place and by whom, of what is planned, so they can try and stop it or the Libyan cost guard "the proper trained authorities with links to the other emergency services if required), can turn up and deal with it.
That's one option but its not their only one. Given that our authorities aren't dealing with the situation themselves, the charities doing so is not a problem. If our authorities start dropping people back off in Libya or instructing the charities to do so then that would be different but that's not the case at the moment.
Blame the authorities not the charities. Only the authorities can change any of this.
I do not know anything about the law in Libya to say that it is a legal requirement to inform the police if you know a crime will be committed in the future.
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
Do you mean small businesses or small businesses that don't export?. I'm retired now, but as a small business (just me) I providing services. It was seamless within the EU and not elsewhere. I had a complete nightmare dealing with the USA. Prior to this I worked for a large company and this was prior to the current EU trading arrangements and every time I temporarily exported stuff (eg demo equipment) we ran into problems and it usually went pearshaped.
I've just started a small service business selling all over the world. This describes my life very precisely
After 6 months I have yet to come across any problematic EU red tape.
[Opening a bank account was a colossal pain in the arse, but I don't know if the UK or EU are to blame for that!]
Face it, all the "freedom to trade" talk is, and always was, facile bullshit. Anyone still peddling it is either delusional, lying or a fucking moron.
Sovereignty or immigration, I get. I don't agree with, but I understand it. Claiming the UK will be economically better off outside the EU is now just embarrassing.
It’s not only ‘interesting’ it’s sensible and logical.
After all WE STARTED THIS!
How did we start this? It takes two to tango.
They spent decades changing the organisation we had joined away from what it was when we joined it and then rejected Cameron's attempts to resolve British concerns.
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
Do you mean small businesses or small businesses that don't export?. I'm retired now, but as a small business (just me) I providing services. It was seamless within the EU and not elsewhere. I had a complete nightmare dealing with the USA. Prior to this I worked for a large company and this was prior to the current EU trading arrangements and every time I temporarily exported stuff (eg demo equipment) we ran into problems and it usually went pearshaped.
I've just started a small service business selling all over the world. This describes my life very precisely
After 6 months I have yet to come across any problematic EU red tape.
[Opening a bank account was a colossal pain in the arse, but I don't know if the UK or EU are to blame for that!]
Face it, all the "freedom to trade" talk is, and always was, facile bullshit. Anyone still peddling it is either delusional, lying or a fucking moron.
Sovereignty or immigration, I get. I don't agree with, but I understand it. Claiming the UK will be economically better off outside the EU is now just embarrassing.
Me too! I'm also a sole trader, and most of my customers are in Germany and Luxembourg. The EU has made it extremely simple for micro-businesses like mine to access a very large customer base. Every now there comes the chance to do work for a US company, but the bureaucratic overhead means that it's simply not worth it for me.
Brexit is likely to cause me considerable difficulties; I have already lost one customer that requires its suppliers to be EU members. It's quite likely that my little business will no longer be viable after Brexit, and I'll have to find something else to do!
No I'm not. Your own link simply shows who is concerned about Brexit not what the impact will be. Your own link also says that 2/3rds of those responding for exporting SMEs and 5/6ths of those responding on behalf of non-exporting SMEs are not concerned about Brexit.
Considering that Remainers make up 50% of the population it appears that SMEs are less concerned about Brexit than the population as a whole.
Philip, You have been responded to more quickly than I can recall any post before by people who actually export and are small businesses all saying you are wrong. Do you have personal experience to contradict us?
Try selling a service into the USA. I had to complete all sorts of forms to show I wasn't a taxable employee in the US for instance. I was even required to provide evidence embossed with my company stamp. Mind boggling. Nobody has ever asked me to do that before. I think most people would find it difficult to locate it!
I had a nightmare with carnets for demo equipment going in to and out of France twice around 1991. A piece of equipment vital for a bid was held in Cyprus customs for weeks. It could have killed a massive deal for the company I was then working for. It was prior to them joining the EU.
It’s not only ‘interesting’ it’s sensible and logical.
After all WE STARTED THIS!
How did we start this? It takes two to tango.
They spent decades changing the organisation we had joined away from what it was when we joined it and then rejected Cameron's attempts to resolve British concerns.
Changes in which we were willing participants. It really wasn’t a case of the 27 or whatever the number was deciding something, then telling the British 'take it or leave it’. Our Government, our MEP’s (until the arrival of UKIP) were full partiicipants in whatever was done.
Pretty clear we're entering a trade war, with tariffs as a weapon.
And the enemy turns out to be American businesses...
Interested to see where the Harley thing goes. It's easy to explain in words of one syllable that their domestic success is dependent on international sales and manufacturing.
What next, Coca-Cola as a traitor for having the temerity to make American fizzy sugar water in furrin parts. Apple? HP?
It’s not only ‘interesting’ it’s sensible and logical.
After all WE STARTED THIS!
How did we start this? It takes two to tango.
They spent decades changing the organisation we had joined away from what it was when we joined it and then rejected Cameron's attempts to resolve British concerns.
We actually believed that the EU owed us a living and we didn't interact fully. Ever hear the fateful words "semi-detached" to describe the UK's attitude to Europe? By not being fully involved, we ended up with out any power to change things, or friends willing to help us... .
Comments
It is.
You may think it is a bad option but it is an option.
If Number 10/11 have been negligent then why haven’t the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox, Grayling, and Davis quit?
https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1002541345964216321?s=21
It would collapse our economy
Get real
https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1011409127954878464
Boris Johnson should have any problem lying in front of a bulldozer as he has plenty of experience lying in front of a bus.
Big business who can afford teams of lawyers etc can easily navigate regulations and pointless bureaucracy.
Small business gets tangled up in the red tape though.
Shame you don't seem to care about small business.
Blame the authorities not the charities. Only the authorities can change any of this.
But if there is no deal then small businesses will find that there is less business overall and that should worry them.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-latest-news-eu-talks-brussels-uk-theresa-may-a8416076.html
http://theconversation.com/brexits-impact-on-small-businesses-the-experts-may-be-spot-on-after-all-90561
I agree with the Italians, there needs to be an Australian style solution to boat arrivals.
After all WE STARTED THIS!
Considering that Remainers make up 50% of the population it appears that SMEs are less concerned about Brexit than the population as a whole.
With respect to the Coastguard they are doing there job in partnership with the Italian authorities.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/libyan-coastguard-prevents-ngo-boat-from-rescuing-migrants/
After 6 months I have yet to come across any problematic EU red tape.
[Opening a bank account was a colossal pain in the arse, but I don't know if the UK or EU are to blame for that!]
Face it, all the "freedom to trade" talk is, and always was, facile bullshit. Anyone still peddling it is either delusional, lying or a fucking moron.
Sovereignty or immigration, I get. I don't agree with, but I understand it. Claiming the UK will be economically better off outside the EU is now just embarrassing.
https://twitter.com/MarkFieldUK/status/1011282855069143042
They spent decades changing the organisation we had joined away from what it was when we joined it and then rejected Cameron's attempts to resolve British concerns.
Brexit is likely to cause me considerable difficulties; I have already lost one customer that requires its suppliers to be EU members. It's quite likely that my little business will no longer be viable after Brexit, and I'll have to find something else to do!
Try selling a service into the USA. I had to complete all sorts of forms to show I wasn't a taxable employee in the US for instance. I was even required to provide evidence embossed with my company stamp. Mind boggling. Nobody has ever asked me to do that before. I think most people would find it difficult to locate it!
I had a nightmare with carnets for demo equipment going in to and out of France twice around 1991. A piece of equipment vital for a bid was held in Cyprus customs for weeks. It could have killed a massive deal for the company I was then working for. It was prior to them joining the EU.
This is the person Boris is "increasingly admiring"?
What next, Coca-Cola as a traitor for having the temerity to make American fizzy sugar water in furrin parts. Apple? HP?
NEW THREAD
As Alanbrooke said where were they between 2000-2010 when manufacturing was in depression ?