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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay deserves to be congratulated for at least making a decisi

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited June 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay deserves to be congratulated for at least making a decision on LHR

By a walloping Commons majority last night, 415 votes to 119, the ongoing procrastination over the expansion of Heathrow has been resolved and at last the indecision over the airport’s future is over.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Burst.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    ydoethur said:

    We will not always have coal. We will not always have gas. We won't always have uranium and we have to import it from places we can't be sure will stay friendly. We don't always have wind, or sunlight.

    But as long as we have a moon we have tides.

    As dumbarse decisions go, this is an impressive one.

    (And @Hyufd - I lived in Aberystwyth for far longer than a year. Believe me, they'll be pissed off.)

    We always have wind, and sunlight, unless you are going to sample over silly periods - and if you are going to do that, we don't always have tides either, we have slack water about 25% of the time. And we have batteries. The undisputed fact that tidal lagoons are a lovely, hoopy and froody idea is trumped by the fact that they are prohibitively expensive, if they are. If they aren't, let's see the figures establishing that they aren't.
    We have sunlight at night? Or winds in flat calms? (Indeed, they have to shut the rotors down in gales as well.)

    One of the issues with the Rance system is that it operates at 28% efficiency not 90% like nuclear. Against that the technology dates from before Dr Who - literally. I think there is a possibility of improving on that.

    I love my solar panels. Can run the washing machine off them if I'm careful. But at this moment with just the lights on I'm using more mains electricity than I did to run the oven earlier. Doesn't that rather underline solar's chief shortcoming?
    Nuclear, which works by boiling water to generate steam, also only has a 30% thermal efficiency
    ...and also produces deadly toxic waste.
    Ah, the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    Wow, a huge majority. Why the delay?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Great decision, albeit about two decades too late. Now get on and build the bloody runway!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Somewhat predictably, the putative trade war is raising risk premiums across the board. And in particular is driving the safe haven currency - aka the US Dollar - higher. Trump's new tariffs, therefore will have only a limited impact on the current account

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Rejoice! Rejoice!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    @HYUFD - did you really live in Aberystwyth at any time? Because you're talking total nonsense.

    My suspicion is that you spent a couple of semesters at the university, living solely in PJM with a load of other English interlopers, did your shopping at the Co-op on the Waun, and went into town about once a month. That doesn't give you the capacity to judge what feelings will be like in the town.

    I lived there for seven years, four of them in a flat in Morfa Mawr and two in Gray's Inn Road, was choirmaster and organist of one of the local churches, sat on the board of a local charity and worked in several different bars as well as spending three years as a lecturer at the university.

    Yes, there is a 'them and us' mentality. Often, people in Aber get bent out by Cardiff. But they will have wanted this. Aber is famously the greenest town in the UK, for many years it was the only town to have elected a Green MP, and there has always been a push to enhance energy efficiency and cleanliness.

    Moreover, if they look at Cardiff with suspicion they look at London with hatred. When London clashes with Cardiff they will only want one winner.

    Feel free to disagree based on your minimal knowledge of the town. Just be aware that you're completely wrong.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    @rpjs - I take it from your remarks about 'second best' you haven't been following recent sad events in Lampeter very closely?

    Not that Aberystwyth is in a good way either after 14 years of chronic mismanagement.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    On topic, although Parliament has spoken I have no doubt that is that start of five years of legal wrangling rather than the moment we start getting ready to cut the sod.

    I have a feeling this is one of those projects that will never be cancelled but will never actually happen.
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192
    ydoethur said:

    On topic, although Parliament has spoken I have no doubt that is that start of five years of legal wrangling rather than the moment we start getting ready to cut the sod.

    I have a feeling this is one of those projects that will never be cancelled but will never actually happen.

    Heathrow finally get the decision they wanted. Sadly Brexit is just around the corner, and knowing their luck our no deal crash brexit so damages the uk economy that the demand for flights into the English Patient drops enough to smash the business case.

    Desperate to sell more tat (Heathrow Airport's primary business) they instead open duty free shops across Britain's decimated high streets offering purfume and cartons of fags to the residents of Freeport England
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    ydoethur said:

    On topic, although Parliament has spoken I have no doubt that is that start of five years of legal wrangling rather than the moment we start getting ready to cut the sod.

    I have a feeling this is one of those projects that will never be cancelled but will never actually happen.

    That would be the worst of all worlds: no extra runways built anywhere and Heathrow and Gatwick remaining at, and near, capacity for a decade or more.

    The economic damage caused by this would be very severe, as would the image around the word of the UK as being a backward country that can't organise a piss-up in a brewery.

    The protesters really need to grow up and think of the good of the country rather than their own narrow interests.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The protesters really need to grow up and think of the good of the country rather than their own narrow interests.

    Like Boris...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Scott_P said:

    The protesters really need to grow up and think of the good of the country rather than their own narrow interests.

    Like Boris...
    Well, yes. Just look at the expensive mess that was Boris' Garden Bridge: a classic example of a brain-dead project that the rest of us had to pay for.

    The report into that shows exactly why he be nowhere near taxpayers' money; note his refusal to cooperate:
    https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/md2108_appendix_garden_bridge_review.pdf

    And on another matter,
    "Bridge schemes should be supported by infrastructure experts rather than “attention-seeking” foreign secretary Boris Johnson, a leading bridge engineer has said. "

    https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/boris-johnson-told-to-leave-bridges-to-the-experts/10032133.article

    LOL. :)
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    "The SNP was accused of putting “nationalist interests before the national interest” by abstaining on a vote on Monday evening to approve expansion of Heathrow, despite the Scottish Government signing off on the case for a third runway at the airport."

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-abstain-on-heathrow-expansion-vote-despite-scottish-government-backing-1-4759680
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    The decision is about 15-20 years too late but is still to be welcomed. I would suggest that a generous package of compensation (say pre Blight valuation +25%) should be offered on the condition that all legal challenges are dropped. We absolutely need to get on with this and the last thing we want is protracted legal wrangling going over all of the environmental issues yet again.

    We should start the planning for expanding Gatwick the day the first sod is cut at Heathrow. I have never understood why they were thought to be alternatives.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    ydoethur said:

    On topic, although Parliament has spoken I have no doubt that is that start of five years of legal wrangling rather than the moment we start getting ready to cut the sod.

    I have a feeling this is one of those projects that will never be cancelled but will never actually happen.

    Sadly you may be right, certainly about all the legal wrangling. As a country we need to change our attitude to major infrastructure projects, yesterday’s vote in Parliament should be the final say on the matter and we should be sending out CPOs next week with the bulldozers not far behind.

    PS good to see from your earlier post that the conflight between town and gown in Aber hasn’t changed much since I was there two decades ago ;)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Scott_P said:

    The protesters really need to grow up and think of the good of the country rather than their own narrow interests.

    Like Boris...
    Definitely like Boris. The PM should have marched him through the lobby yesterday with the rest of the government.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    Definitely like Boris. The PM should have marched him through the lobby yesterday with the rest of the government.

    https://twitter.com/Cartoon4sale/status/1011355202094497792
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    The protesters really need to grow up and think of the good of the country rather than their own narrow interests.

    Like Boris...
    Definitely like Boris. The PM should have marched him through the lobby yesterday with the rest of the government.
    In cutting him down to size what she did was far more effective. I think that there is little doubt that a free vote would have passed handily but she chose not to. It is pretty obvious why.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    The protesters really need to grow up and think of the good of the country rather than their own narrow interests.

    Like Boris...
    Definitely like Boris. The PM should have marched him through the lobby yesterday with the rest of the government.
    In cutting him down to size what she did was far more effective. I think that there is little doubt that a free vote would have passed handily but she chose not to. It is pretty obvious why.
    Yeah, a potential challenger further weakened.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    Yes, but it’s only a motion (or a decision-in-principle, if you will).

    As I understand it there’s still no full Bill before the Commons for the necessary powers, and I understand that won’t be the case until 2020.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    I wonder if we'll end up with a Where's Boris? book to rival Wally.

    The Welsh tidal lagoon decision seems peculiar. As the ITV segment suggested, there's a risk this, again, looks like being money for the south-east/London (Heathrow) and none for the Rest of the Country.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283
    edited June 2018
    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917

    Yes, but it’s only a motion (or a decision-in-principle, if you will).

    As I understand it there’s still no full Bill before the Commons for the necessary powers, and I understand that won’t be the case until 2020.

    Why on earth does it take two years to get to the next stage.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994
    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    The Mini factory in the Netherlands is going to two shifts in other nothing-to-do-with-Brexit news.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    One way that might shorten the legal battles would be to insist that all vehicles within the envelope of the airport have to be at least hybrid and only use their electrical source of power there. The NO2 levels around the airport are already illegal and since it is thought to be even more dangerous than the dihydrogen monoxide that Robert was highlighting this morning something needs to be done about it.

    Insisting all taxis and buses were hybrid would also have beneficial effects in other parts of London too as well as giving a significant boost to the development of the technology. If this was announced now there is time for a whole generation of vehicles to come into being before the new, expanded terminals are open. I have little doubt that in 20 years people are going to look back at the idea of diesels being used in built up areas with simple astonishment. What on earth were we thinking?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    What do they know?

    Our local car manufacturing experts will be along shortly to put them straight...
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    Pulpstar said:

    Yes, but it’s only a motion (or a decision-in-principle, if you will).

    As I understand it there’s still no full Bill before the Commons for the necessary powers, and I understand that won’t be the case until 2020.

    Why on earth does it take two years to get to the next stage.
    We are a democracy.

    Also, a lot of details now need to be worked through on the plans, compensation and various planning and legal issues to get the necessary powers.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    Working link:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283
    edited June 2018

    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    Working link:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003
    :smile:

    And I'm sure the rozzers will shortly be round to the SMMT's chairman to arrest him for treason for daring to suggest the UK should stay in the Customs Union.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    DavidL said:

    One way that might shorten the legal battles would be to insist that all vehicles within the envelope of the airport have to be at least hybrid and only use their electrical source of power there. The NO2 levels around the airport are already illegal and since it is thought to be even more dangerous than the dihydrogen monoxide that Robert was highlighting this morning something needs to be done about it.

    Insisting all taxis and buses were hybrid would also have beneficial effects in other parts of London too as well as giving a significant boost to the development of the technology. If this was announced now there is time for a whole generation of vehicles to come into being before the new, expanded terminals are open. I have little doubt that in 20 years people are going to look back at the idea of diesels being used in built up areas with simple astonishment. What on earth were we thinking?

    A nice idea, but isn't the M25 going to be within the expanded airport's envelope (if below it) ?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    It should be contemptible when politicians run away. Most of all, it should be embarrassing for them, more than it is for other people. Somehow, Johnson manages to make it more embarrassing for everybody else. His jaunt to Afghanistan is an amazing quintuple whammy; indifferent to his constituents, scornful of his government, contemptuous of parliament, disdainful of his role as Britain’s foremost envoy and insulting to the Afghans whom he makes his stooge.

    There’s no feigning regret here, no pretence that he was going anyway, no masquerading that it is all anything other than a big old game he wants to win. It’s bad when they lie to you, but it’s so much worse when they don’t. Whether or not he ever lies down in the dirt, that’s where he’s dragging the rest of us. Sack him, for all of our sakes. This is mortifying.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/for-runaway-boris-there-s-nowhere-to-hide-8xwk986x2
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I doubt it will change anything other than put the final nail in Boris Johnson’s leadership ambitions. The government is paralysed, the opposition totally split. We’ll all be hearing the same arguments in 2028.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235

    DavidL said:

    One way that might shorten the legal battles would be to insist that all vehicles within the envelope of the airport have to be at least hybrid and only use their electrical source of power there. The NO2 levels around the airport are already illegal and since it is thought to be even more dangerous than the dihydrogen monoxide that Robert was highlighting this morning something needs to be done about it.

    Insisting all taxis and buses were hybrid would also have beneficial effects in other parts of London too as well as giving a significant boost to the development of the technology. If this was announced now there is time for a whole generation of vehicles to come into being before the new, expanded terminals are open. I have little doubt that in 20 years people are going to look back at the idea of diesels being used in built up areas with simple astonishment. What on earth were we thinking?

    A nice idea, but isn't the M25 going to be within the expanded airport's envelope (if below it) ?
    I think you would still have to exclude that pro tem but many parts of the M25 also breach NO2 levels. We're going to need a lot more electrical power. If only there was some major, very reliable, ultra green source that we had the option of expanding....
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    "The SNP was accused of putting “nationalist interests before the national interest” by abstaining on a vote on Monday evening to approve expansion of Heathrow, despite the Scottish Government signing off on the case for a third runway at the airport."

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-abstain-on-heathrow-expansion-vote-despite-scottish-government-backing-1-4759680

    Taking their lead from Boris...
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    DavidL said:

    One way that might shorten the legal battles would be to insist that all vehicles within the envelope of the airport have to be at least hybrid and only use their electrical source of power there. The NO2 levels around the airport are already illegal and since it is thought to be even more dangerous than the dihydrogen monoxide that Robert was highlighting this morning something needs to be done about it.

    Insisting all taxis and buses were hybrid would also have beneficial effects in other parts of London too as well as giving a significant boost to the development of the technology. If this was announced now there is time for a whole generation of vehicles to come into being before the new, expanded terminals are open. I have little doubt that in 20 years people are going to look back at the idea of diesels being used in built up areas with simple astonishment. What on earth were we thinking?

    All new cars will be electric by 2040.

    It’d be cheaper and easier to just develop new cleaner fuels, though heaven knows how you decarbonise aviation.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Meeks, to be fair, if this nonsense ends Boris' premiership hopes, then it's a worthy act (if committed in the most obviously self-serving and slippery fashion to try and achieve the opposite result).
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Pulpstar said:

    Yes, but it’s only a motion (or a decision-in-principle, if you will).

    As I understand it there’s still no full Bill before the Commons for the necessary powers, and I understand that won’t be the case until 2020.

    Why on earth does it take two years to get to the next stage.
    We are a democracy.

    Also, a lot of details now need to be worked through on the plans, compensation and various planning and legal issues to get the necessary powers.
    More thought has gone into the runway than Brexit.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    Working link:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003
    :smile:

    And I'm sure the rozzers will shortly be round to the SMMT's chairman to arrest him for treason for daring to suggest the UK should stay in the Customs Union.
    At the very least, Charles should be branding them 'inappropriate'.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    I've just had a look at the Hinkley vfm assesment
    Not a single mention of decommissioning
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    The Mini factory in the Netherlands is going to two shifts in other nothing-to-do-with-Brexit news.
    Now you're just being relentlessly negative.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235

    DavidL said:

    One way that might shorten the legal battles would be to insist that all vehicles within the envelope of the airport have to be at least hybrid and only use their electrical source of power there. The NO2 levels around the airport are already illegal and since it is thought to be even more dangerous than the dihydrogen monoxide that Robert was highlighting this morning something needs to be done about it.

    Insisting all taxis and buses were hybrid would also have beneficial effects in other parts of London too as well as giving a significant boost to the development of the technology. If this was announced now there is time for a whole generation of vehicles to come into being before the new, expanded terminals are open. I have little doubt that in 20 years people are going to look back at the idea of diesels being used in built up areas with simple astonishment. What on earth were we thinking?

    All new cars will be electric by 2040.

    It’d be cheaper and easier to just develop new cleaner fuels, though heaven knows how you decarbonise aviation.
    I think at the current rate of progress 2040 looks optimistic but we could use Heathrow to give the development of the technology and the infrastructure a big push.

    I wondered if the car technology will develop batteries to the extent that having planes use them in their approach might become a possibility. Weight would be the issue now but that would solve a lot of problems.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    Scott_P said:
    The ideal would clearly be a trade deal signed off with the EU at the forthcoming summit in 2 days time. Unfortunately October looks the more likely for that and there is no doubt that uncertainty about the shape of that deal is detrimental to both sides, particularly us.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Scott_P said:
    Good on that woman.

    We still haven’t eliminated the deficit.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    Scott_P said:

    It should be contemptible when politicians run away. Most of all, it should be embarrassing for them, more than it is for other people. Somehow, Johnson manages to make it more embarrassing for everybody else. His jaunt to Afghanistan is an amazing quintuple whammy; indifferent to his constituents, scornful of his government, contemptuous of parliament, disdainful of his role as Britain’s foremost envoy and insulting to the Afghans whom he makes his stooge.

    There’s no feigning regret here, no pretence that he was going anyway, no masquerading that it is all anything other than a big old game he wants to win. It’s bad when they lie to you, but it’s so much worse when they don’t. Whether or not he ever lies down in the dirt, that’s where he’s dragging the rest of us. Sack him, for all of our sakes. This is mortifying.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/for-runaway-boris-there-s-nowhere-to-hide-8xwk986x2

    Gove did us all a favour.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    RoyalBlue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Good on that woman.

    We still haven’t eliminated the deficit.
    We're close to doing so, though, which is why ministers are now making spending bids.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    One way that might shorten the legal battles would be to insist that all vehicles within the envelope of the airport have to be at least hybrid and only use their electrical source of power there. The NO2 levels around the airport are already illegal and since it is thought to be even more dangerous than the dihydrogen monoxide that Robert was highlighting this morning something needs to be done about it.

    Insisting all taxis and buses were hybrid would also have beneficial effects in other parts of London too as well as giving a significant boost to the development of the technology. If this was announced now there is time for a whole generation of vehicles to come into being before the new, expanded terminals are open. I have little doubt that in 20 years people are going to look back at the idea of diesels being used in built up areas with simple astonishment. What on earth were we thinking?

    All new cars will be electric by 2040.

    It’d be cheaper and easier to just develop new cleaner fuels, though heaven knows how you decarbonise aviation.
    I think at the current rate of progress 2040 looks optimistic but we could use Heathrow to give the development of the technology and the infrastructure a big push.

    I wondered if the car technology will develop batteries to the extent that having planes use them in their approach might become a possibility. Weight would be the issue now but that would solve a lot of problems.
    Electric planes are coming along,.though there is no electric 747 or big airbus yet. I think the only vehicle that NEEDS chemical combustion is a rocket..
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    edited June 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    One way that might shorten the legal battles would be to insist that all vehicles within the envelope of the airport have to be at least hybrid and only use their electrical source of power there. The NO2 levels around the airport are already illegal and since it is thought to be even more dangerous than the dihydrogen monoxide that Robert was highlighting this morning something needs to be done about it.

    Insisting all taxis and buses were hybrid would also have beneficial effects in other parts of London too as well as giving a significant boost to the development of the technology. If this was announced now there is time for a whole generation of vehicles to come into being before the new, expanded terminals are open. I have little doubt that in 20 years people are going to look back at the idea of diesels being used in built up areas with simple astonishment. What on earth were we thinking?

    All new cars will be electric by 2040.

    It’d be cheaper and easier to just develop new cleaner fuels, though heaven knows how you decarbonise aviation.
    I think at the current rate of progress 2040 looks optimistic but we could use Heathrow to give the development of the technology and the infrastructure a big push.

    I wondered if the car technology will develop batteries to the extent that having planes use them in their approach might become a possibility. Weight would be the issue now but that would solve a lot of problems.
    Electric planes are coming along,.though there is no electric 747 or big airbus yet. I think the only vehicle that NEEDS chemical combustion is a rocket..
    Again hybrids seem to be the answer. If planes went to electric for the last 75 miles or so then noise and pollution largely cease to be an issue. Takeoff would be more difficult.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    The Mini factory in the Netherlands is going to two shifts in other nothing-to-do-with-Brexit news.
    Now you're just being relentlessly negative.
    I think business - on both sides of the channel - are very frustrated at the lack of progress and clarity on the post Brexit situation, with just 9 months left to go.

    They want both the EU and the UK to hear that message for the European Council later this week.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2018
    It's good that a decision has been made but I think Boris Island would have been the better option in the long-term.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    One way that might shorten the legal battles would be to insist that all vehicles within the envelope of the airport have to be at least hybrid and only use their electrical source of power there. The NO2 levels around the airport are already illegal and since it is thought to be even more dangerous than the dihydrogen monoxide that Robert was highlighting this morning something needs to be done about it.

    Insisting all taxis and buses were hybrid would also have beneficial effects in other parts of London too as well as giving a significant boost to the development of the technology. If this was announced now there is time for a whole generation of vehicles to come into being before the new, expanded terminals are open. I have little doubt that in 20 years people are going to look back at the idea of diesels being used in built up areas with simple astonishment. What on earth were we thinking?

    A nice idea, but isn't the M25 going to be within the expanded airport's envelope (if below it) ?
    I think you would still have to exclude that pro tem but many parts of the M25 also breach NO2 levels. We're going to need a lot more electrical power. If only there was some major, very reliable, ultra green source that we had the option of expanding....
    A barrage is not necessarily fully green in CO2 terms, in the fact it uses oodles of concrete in construction - but then almost all construction requires hydraulic cement.

    Interestingly, a new British developmemnt migth reduce that:
    https://www.newcivilengineer.com/tech-excellence/graphene-super-concrete-could-cut-carbon-emissions/10030402.article

    Although it looks as though they'll probably use pozzolanic (Roman) concrete.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    The Mini factory in the Netherlands is going to two shifts in other nothing-to-do-with-Brexit news.
    It's not a BMW factory, it's a subcontract assembler all car manufacturers use subcontract assemblers when for specific short run models or production overflow.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. P, on Truss: I saw the other day that she had quite a nice line about not approving of the EU's meme-banning idiotic proposal, as a meme herself. Not a huge deal, but did get her some credit, aligns with anti-EU sentiment, and is entirely sensible regarding a damned silly set of internet-buggering proposals.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    What stupid rubbish. I decried the reduction in manufacturing throughout that time, even if I didn't have any easy answers. And I decry this as well.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    car investment is cyclical shock

    the same was said when we wouldn't join the Euro, this is just the SMMT doing their special pleading act as they always do.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    Approving the third runway was the right decision. Heathrow is the only hub airport and the largest port in the UK for non UK exports and post Brexit the UK will need to look open for business
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    What stupid rubbish. I decried the reduction in manufacturing throughout that time, even if I didn't have any easy answers. And I decry this as well.
    oh good weve got one convert
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283

    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    car investment is cyclical shock

    the same was said when we wouldn't join the Euro, this is just the SMMT doing their special pleading act as they always do.
    Everything is fine in this best of all possible worlds.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986

    I doubt it will change anything other than put the final nail in Boris Johnson’s leadership ambitions. The government is paralysed, the opposition totally split. We’ll all be hearing the same arguments in 2028.

    By no means has it put the final nail in Boris' leadership ambitions, he did not vote for the expansion thus representing his constituents and he did not vote against either this keeping his place in Cabinet and a top tier leadership contender as Foreign Secretary.

    After May a candidate with charisma and a committed Brexiteer like Boris will always be in contention and he should not be counted out
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    I've worked in manufacturing since the eighties. My tears are anything but crocodile ones. Investment is the key to improving productivity, and if it falls we are going to have problems.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    car investment is cyclical shock

    the same was said when we wouldn't join the Euro, this is just the SMMT doing their special pleading act as they always do.
    Everything is fine in this best of all possible worlds.
    of course, our new economy of financial services will pay for everything
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    "The SNP was accused of putting “nationalist interests before the national interest” by abstaining on a vote on Monday evening to approve expansion of Heathrow, despite the Scottish Government signing off on the case for a third runway at the airport."

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-abstain-on-heathrow-expansion-vote-despite-scottish-government-backing-1-4759680

    The bbc write up said they have been longstanding supporters of the expansion, it's odd they suddenly found reasons to abstain at the last minute if that is the case.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    What stupid rubbish. I decried the reduction in manufacturing throughout that time, even if I didn't have any easy answers. And I decry this as well.
    oh good weve got one convert
    Don't be a silly sausage,. My views on this sort of thing are pretty much the same as they have been for a couple of decades.

    And it's an interesting choice of words: 'convert'. Brexit really is a religion for some, which is why otherwise intelligent people on both sides seem to lose all sense when it comes to it.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    kle4 said:

    "The SNP was accused of putting “nationalist interests before the national interest” by abstaining on a vote on Monday evening to approve expansion of Heathrow, despite the Scottish Government signing off on the case for a third runway at the airport."

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-abstain-on-heathrow-expansion-vote-despite-scottish-government-backing-1-4759680

    The bbc write up said they have been longstanding supporters of the expansion, it's odd they suddenly found reasons to abstain at the last minute if that is the case.
    Indeed. They make Boris look principled. ;)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    ydoethur said:

    @HYUFD - did you really live in Aberystwyth at any time? Because you're talking total nonsense.

    My suspicion is that you spent a couple of semesters at the university, living solely in PJM with a load of other English interlopers, did your shopping at the Co-op on the Waun, and went into town about once a month. That doesn't give you the capacity to judge what feelings will be like in the town.

    I lived there for seven years, four of them in a flat in Morfa Mawr and two in Gray's Inn Road, was choirmaster and organist of one of the local churches, sat on the board of a local charity and worked in several different bars as well as spending three years as a lecturer at the university.

    Yes, there is a 'them and us' mentality. Often, people in Aber get bent out by Cardiff. But they will have wanted this. Aber is famously the greenest town in the UK, for many years it was the only town to have elected a Green MP, and there has always been a push to enhance energy efficiency and cleanliness.

    Moreover, if they look at Cardiff with suspicion they look at London with hatred. When London clashes with Cardiff they will only want one winner.

    Feel free to disagree based on your minimal knowledge of the town. Just be aware that you're completely wrong.

    I did my Master's in Aberystwyth. I also campaigned in Abeyrstwuth and much of the surrounding area in Ceredigion and of course went to local pubs etc however your 'more Ceredigion than you' argumemt does not change the point.

    This was a project solely for Swansea, North and Mid Wales would have been barely impacted at all and are largely indifferent to South Wales anyway
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Jessop, that does work both ways, though. The zealous are few in number but loud in volume.

    I think most people just want to leave the EU, respect the referendum result, and, if possible, do so in as amicable and smooth a way as possible.

    The incompetence of the Government is not especially helpful in this regard.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986

    Good morning, everyone.

    I wonder if we'll end up with a Where's Boris? book to rival Wally.

    The Welsh tidal lagoon decision seems peculiar. As the ITV segment suggested, there's a risk this, again, looks like being money for the south-east/London (Heathrow) and none for the Rest of the Country.

    Not true as Heathrow expansion is vital for UK exporters from Inverness to Folkestone, a new tidal lagoon in Swansea brings little benefit beyond the Swansea area
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    What stupid rubbish. I decried the reduction in manufacturing throughout that time, even if I didn't have any easy answers. And I decry this as well.
    oh good weve got one convert
    Don't be a silly sausage,. My views on this sort of thing are pretty much the same as they have been for a couple of decades.

    And it's an interesting choice of words: 'convert'. Brexit really is a religion for some, which is why otherwise intelligent people on both sides seem to lose all sense when it comes to it.
    chortle

    convert has nothing to do with Brexit it's got to do with country having a robust manufacturing base and not having a political class which destroys it through neglect.

  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    kle4 said:

    "The SNP was accused of putting “nationalist interests before the national interest” by abstaining on a vote on Monday evening to approve expansion of Heathrow, despite the Scottish Government signing off on the case for a third runway at the airport."

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-abstain-on-heathrow-expansion-vote-despite-scottish-government-backing-1-4759680

    The bbc write up said they have been longstanding supporters of the expansion, it's odd they suddenly found reasons to abstain at the last minute if that is the case.
    I gave them some good reasons in a personal email to each of them :)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. HYUFD, I agree that Heathrow expansion is a good thing, and not just for its immediate area.

    However, there was another recent case (wish I could remember the project, near certain it was transport) where money was splashed in the South at the exact time that the rail woes in the North were making the news.

    I'd add that the lagoon could be a model for similar projects in future, providing us with stable, secure energy (which is also green) and decreasing the requirements from the National Grid.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    it's got to do with country having a robust manufacturing base and not having a political class which destroys it through neglect.

    We have a political class which is intent on destroying our manufacturing base through policy instead
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    HYUFD said:

    I doubt it will change anything other than put the final nail in Boris Johnson’s leadership ambitions. The government is paralysed, the opposition totally split. We’ll all be hearing the same arguments in 2028.

    By no means has it put the final nail in Boris' leadership ambitions, he did not vote for the expansion thus representing his constituents and he did not vote against either this keeping his place in Cabinet and a top tier leadership contender as Foreign Secretary.

    After May a candidate with charisma and a committed Brexiteer like Boris will always be in contention and he should not be counted out
    You seem very convinced. How much are you in for on him
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    Little Labour presence in the legacy prosecutions debate


    https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1011494903900143617
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    I've worked in manufacturing since the eighties. My tears are anything but crocodile ones. Investment is the key to improving productivity, and if it falls we are going to have problems.
    Investment in the automotive industry has always been a bit lumpy, but who could blame a company for holding back in current circumstances?

    In the end we will sign up for Customs Union. There is no real alternative, and Trumps trade war just shows how unlikely any worthwhile FTAs will be.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    What stupid rubbish. I decried the reduction in manufacturing throughout that time, even if I didn't have any easy answers. And I decry this as well.
    oh good weve got one convert
    Don't be a silly sausage,. My views on this sort of thing are pretty much the same as they have been for a couple of decades.

    And it's an interesting choice of words: 'convert'. Brexit really is a religion for some, which is why otherwise intelligent people on both sides seem to lose all sense when it comes to it.
    chortle

    convert has nothing to do with Brexit it's got to do with country having a robust manufacturing base and not having a political class which destroys it through neglect.

    The collapse in investment seems to be down to Brexit putting us out of alignment with the Europe wide trading system we are currently part of. This is down to political decisions to do it the way we are doing it. It is entirely possible to leave the EU but stay in most of the existing arrangements.
  • Options
    OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    One point about all these electric planes, cars and what have you, that I question, is where is all this electricity going to come from?

    Last year the SNP shouted out that renewables were powering Scotland's homes for all of a couple of weeks in the year. Sounds fine until you realise that the power to homes is only 40% of all the power required, the other 60% is required for business and industry, including for electric trains.

    Hinckley C, the Swansea Lagoons and other renewable technologies will only be able to provide a very small percentage of the power required to power all those new travel technologies, plus the homes, buildings and industries that will need to come into being to support them.

    Do we really want windmills all over our green and pleasant land, fields of solar panels rather than filled with cows, sheep or crops.

    Please do not mention Fusion or some other mythical technologies, unless there is some kind of unexpected amazing wonder breakthrough of the kind we have been promised for the past 50 years we will be stuffed..

    Ps: In mentioning the SNP, I would say that any government would be only too happy to spin the news given half a chance. Just the SNP seems to be able to do spin better than all those e***n windmills.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Scott_P said:

    it's got to do with country having a robust manufacturing base and not having a political class which destroys it through neglect.

    We have a political class which is intent on destroying our manufacturing base through policy instead
    Well that's Osborne for you
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited June 2018

    Mr. HYUFD, I agree that Heathrow expansion is a good thing, and not just for its immediate area.

    However, there was another recent case (wish I could remember the project, near certain it was transport) where money was splashed in the South at the exact time that the rail woes in the North were making the news.

    I'd add that the lagoon could be a model for similar projects in future, providing us with stable, secure energy (which is also green) and decreasing the requirements from the National Grid.

    The government's argument was the Swansea project would coat too much for consumers, so if that was wrong blame Greg Clark
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Scott_P said:
    I take it she doesn't mix with people much
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Well that's Osborne for you

    He's not in Government. Do try and keep up...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. HYUFD, wasn't the asked-for energy price lower than the Chinese nuclear reactor using a model that hasn't worked anywhere so far and is massively delayed and over-budget in another country (France?) where they're trying it?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    What stupid rubbish. I decried the reduction in manufacturing throughout that time, even if I didn't have any easy answers. And I decry this as well.
    oh good weve got one convert
    Don't be a silly sausage,. My views on this sort of thing are pretty much the same as they have been for a couple of decades.

    And it's an interesting choice of words: 'convert'. Brexit really is a religion for some, which is why otherwise intelligent people on both sides seem to lose all sense when it comes to it.
    chortle

    convert has nothing to do with Brexit it's got to do with country having a robust manufacturing base and not having a political class which destroys it through neglect.

    The collapse in investment seems to be down to Brexit putting us out of alignment with the Europe wide trading system we are currently part of. This is down to political decisions to do it the way we are doing it. It is entirely possible to leave the EU but stay in most of the existing arrangements.
    No it isn't. Mark Hawes on the SMMT was just on the beeb saying investment is lumpy. It has to do with when model programmes are launched.

    If you are that worried about UK manufacturing jobs in the automotive sector then why arent you discussing the imminent butchering of GKN by Melrose which that tit Greg Hands is nodding through ?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Mr. HYUFD, I agree that Heathrow expansion is a good thing, and not just for its immediate area.

    However, there was another recent case (wish I could remember the project, near certain it was transport) where money was splashed in the South at the exact time that the rail woes in the North were making the news.

    I'd add that the lagoon could be a model for similar projects in future, providing us with stable, secure energy (which is also green) and decreasing the requirements from the National Grid.

    I know you get a nosebleed if you think about the south, but you might want to recall that at the same time that there were rail woes in the North, there were perhaps worse rail woes on GTR. Which serves... the south.. ;)
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Scott_P said:

    Well that's Osborne for you

    He's not in Government. Do try and keep up...
    No he's whingeing from the sidelines

    at last he has found his level
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    @HYUFD - did you really live in Aberystwyth at any time? Because you're talking total nonsense.

    My suspicion is that you spent a couple of semesters at the university, living solely in PJM with a load of other English interlopers, did your shopping at the Co-op on the Waun, and went into town about once a month. That doesn't give you the capacity to judge what feelings will be like in the town.

    I lived there for seven years, four of them in a flat in Morfa Mawr and two in Gray's Inn Road, was choirmaster and organist of one of the local churches, sat on the board of a local charity and worked in several different bars as well as spending three years as a lecturer at the university.

    Yes, there is a 'them and us' mentality. Often, people in Aber get bent out by Cardiff. But they will have wanted this. Aber is famously the greenest town in the UK, for many years it was the only town to have elected a Green MP, and there has always been a push to enhance energy efficiency and cleanliness.

    Moreover, if they look at Cardiff with suspicion they look at London with hatred. When London clashes with Cardiff they will only want one winner.

    Feel free to disagree based on your minimal knowledge of the town. Just be aware that you're completely wrong.

    I did my Master's in Aberystwyth. I also campaigned in Abeyrstwuth and much of the surrounding area in Ceredigion and of course went to local pubs etc however your 'more Ceredigion than you' argumemt does not change the point.

    This was a project solely for Swansea, North and Mid Wales would have been barely impacted at all and are largely indifferent to South Wales anyway
    Point of order. Wasn't the "Green MP" mentioned in passing actually a one-off Plaid-Green alliance candidate?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    edited June 2018
    Mr. Jessop, it's true that there's been a lot of rail problems in the south (I recall a prolonged period of one operator [Southern Rail?] being thoroughly atrocious). That doesn't change the fact that money to electrify northern rail lines is promised then goes missing, whereas Grayling can find £2bn for a Stonehenge tunnel that many fear will cause huge damage to a unique site.

    Edited extra bit: decided a mild insult against Grayling was unseemly, so removed it.
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    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,897
    edited June 2018
    OchEye said:

    One point about all these electric planes, cars and what have you, that I question, is where is all this electricity going to come from?

    Last year the SNP shouted out that renewables were powering Scotland's homes for all of a couple of weeks in the year. Sounds fine until you realise that the power to homes is only 40% of all the power required, the other 60% is required for business and industry, including for electric trains.

    Hinckley C, the Swansea Lagoons and other renewable technologies will only be able to provide a very small percentage of the power required to power all those new travel technologies, plus the homes, buildings and industries that will need to come into being to support them.

    Do we really want windmills all over our green and pleasant land, fields of solar panels rather than filled with cows, sheep or crops.

    Please do not mention Fusion or some other mythical technologies, unless there is some kind of unexpected amazing wonder breakthrough of the kind we have been promised for the past 50 years we will be stuffed..

    Ps: In mentioning the SNP, I would say that any government would be only too happy to spin the news given half a chance. Just the SNP seems to be able to do spin better than all those e***n windmills.

    There's still a lot of space left in the sea for offshore wind and plenty of roofs without solar panels on. Coping with the intermittent nature of renewables is a bigger challenge than finding space for them!
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,378

    Mr. HYUFD, I agree that Heathrow expansion is a good thing, and not just for its immediate area.

    However, there was another recent case (wish I could remember the project, near certain it was transport) where money was splashed in the South at the exact time that the rail woes in the North were making the news.

    I'd add that the lagoon could be a model for similar projects in future, providing us with stable, secure energy (which is also green) and decreasing the requirements from the National Grid.

    I know you get a nosebleed if you think about the south, but you might want to recall that at the same time that there were rail woes in the North, there were perhaps worse rail woes on GTR. Which serves... the south.. ;)
    He's thinking of Tosspot Grayling willing to spend tens of billions on HS2, Crossrail 2 et al but not a few million on electrifying the Pennine Routes or adding the extra 2 platforms at Piccadilly that were promised.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Some of us on here wittered on about how few would hear the sound of £100m not being invested in the UK post-Brexit.

    Seems the Society of Motor Manufacturers is trying to bring just such a situation to our attention.

    Brexit: Car investment slumps as 'uncertainty bites' http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003

    Edit: can't seem to get the link to work on a phone. The headline says it all, that said.

    Working link:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44609003
    :smile:

    And I'm sure the rozzers will shortly be round to the SMMT's chairman to arrest him for treason for daring to suggest the UK should stay in the Customs Union.
    At the very least, Charles should be branding them 'inappropriate'.
    No. It’s not a threat to try and get a democratically elected government to bend to its will. There’s not much moral difference between the way Airbus and the NUM behaved.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    crocodile tears

    where were the scream as Blair destroyed manufacturing ?

    the same people yelling today are the ones who dismissed everything as Brirish Leyland 10 years ago and said let it go.
    What stupid rubbish. I decried the reduction in manufacturing throughout that time, even if I didn't have any easy answers. And I decry this as well.
    oh good weve got one convert
    Don't be a silly sausage,. My views on this sort of thing are pretty much the same as they have been for a couple of decades.

    And it's an interesting choice of words: 'convert'. Brexit really is a religion for some, which is why otherwise intelligent people on both sides seem to lose all sense when it comes to it.
    chortle

    convert has nothing to do with Brexit it's got to do with country having a robust manufacturing base and not having a political class which destroys it through neglect.
    You see, I don't see the 'political class' as being the cause of manufacturings woes.

    In first place I'd pace banking and investors, who want short-term results and fail to invest in the long term. This has been a real killer.
    In second place I'd put owners and management, who can be far too conservative when it comes to new ideas and investment, often because of the first factor.
    In third place I'd put employees and the unions, who can sometimes act directly against their medium- and long-term interests.

    Politics and politicians would come far down the list. But it's an easy to use them as a hate figure and miss the real issues.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Those motor industry investment figures are bad enough on their own, but they are just one example from across manufacturing. We really need to stop digging the Brexit hole and work out how we get out of it.

    So far Leave advocates have fallen in behind xenophobic lies, attacked the judiciary, attacked the civil service, attacked the House of Lords, attacked the media, attacked any business leader who has expressed qualms about the progress of Brexit, attacked the governor of the Bank of England and attacked the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The idea that they are going to change course because Brexit might be profoundly damaging to British industry is for the birds. Their paramount concern is to give free rein to their bottomless irrational hatred of the EU. Nothing else matters.
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