So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
While I think they will lose the next election, if the polls are right they might well be remembered by remaining the most popular political party in the United Kingdom. Not ideal if there is no majority or even a Labour coalition, but the strength of your ire does not seem matched by the fact that despite the shambles they remain, even if by default, popular enough to be in with a shout of winning most seats four elections in a row despite austerity and Brexit, which is pretty remarkable.
So I don't really know that your faith in the buck stopping with them holds much water. It's another thing that might be reasonable to happen but no certainty.
I am certainly not a May fan and would not vote for her but Ben's view of the Tory party seems to be very similar to the left wing view of Trump. Because they hate him so much they think that he must surely be hugely unpopular with everyone else and cannot possibly win another term. Now I wish they were right but looking at the current polling it does seem to me that as long as his luck holds with the economy (and it has been pure luck until now) he may well win again in 2020. I fear the same may be true for May if she lasts that long.
This was the mindset of David Davis and the Leavers straight after the referendum was won. No Deal wasn't an option in their minds, they thought it was just Project Fear.
Sharp operator Barnier vs. certified moron Davis - was the result ever in doubt? Jeez!
You really should be wary of thinking a picture defines a situation - a lot of inept people are quite capable of appearing to be sharp and eloquent while being neither. It happens with actors all the time, and no doubt plenty of politicians and officials manage it too.
That is very true. However, in this case the picture seems (perhaps by chance) to provide an accurate definition.
Davis was of the crowd claiming it would be easy, which was always bollocks (though I was quite wrong about how hard it would prove, even thinking it would be hard), so that's quite true, but it's not a good idea to start down the path of thinking a good photo proves a point!
The worst part is that the government should have started to prepare for a very narrow trade deal with the EU and begun the laborious process of getting our regulatory bodies international recognition so that the planes still flew and nuclear plants stayed on after Brexit day. These technical details seem to have been completely ignored by May and Hammond. They seem so interested in winning the air war they neglected to remember that it's ground troops that give one a lasting victory.
Brexiteers told them these things were not important
Easiest deal in history...
And Brexiteer rewriting of history to make those who warned and campaigned against it the villains is as doomed as the project itself
You didn't campaign, and your "warning" consisted of twatting about on here in a manner calculated to drive people into the L:eave camp. The more you now bang on about how obvious it always was to clever people like you how pear-shaped it was all going to go, the more you condemn yourself as a spineless wazzock for not having done anything constructive about it while you had the chance.
Oh , this is the brilliant "It's all your fault - you should have done more to stop us self-harming" defence.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
The remainer PM and Chancellor are most culpable.
Gove, Davis and Johnson are most culpable, on two counts: a) for spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy in the first place and b) for rank cowardice in not being prepared to challenge May if (as I am sure they will claim in future) they felt Brexit was not being run optimally.
Yes, if they think it is so terrible, that she is leading everyone down a terrible path (as they continually leak) then they should do something about it, not indulge more can kicking, then no doubt still whinge about it, then seek to advance their personal positions later. I don't believe they are concerned about the path May is taking, they care enough to keep her in place long enough to (they hope) shoulder most of the blame.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
The remainer PM and Chancellor are most culpable.
Gove, Davis and Johnson are most culpable, on two counts: a) for spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy in the first place and b) for rank cowardice in not being prepared to challenge May if (as I am sure they will claim in future) they felt Brexit was not being run optimally.
Bollocks on point a. You lost to a bus. Get over it.
On point b I agree, they should have challenged May just now and resigned en masse. Her fudge with fudge is not working for anyone except the EU.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
The remainer PM and Chancellor are most culpable.
Gove, Davis and Johnson are most culpable, on two counts: a) for spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy in the first place and b) for rank cowardice in not being prepared to challenge May if (as I am sure they will claim in future) they felt Brexit was not being run optimally.
Bollocks on point a. You lost to a bus. Get over it.
On point b I agree, they should have challenged May just now and resigned en masse. Her fudge with fudge is not working for anyone except the EU.
Don't be silly! It was all about the Leave campaign playing the xenophobic card to perfection.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
Rubbish. The Conservative government are delivering the Brexit those Leave voters voted for ie regaining sovereignty as far as possible and reducing immigration by ending free movement by leaving the single market, policies also supported by Corbyn while also leaving the customs union to allow the trade deals the Leave campaign promised.
At the same time the government has also agreed to pay an exit bill, protect citizens' rights and agree regulatory alignment to try and get a FTA with the EU and resolve the Irish border. No government could have done much better in trying to combine respecting the Leave vote and getting an exit deal, a transition period and ultimately a FTA with the EU
Before the vote it was going to be brilliant. Freedom. Prosperity. A beacon to the World.
Then not quite as bad as the Black Death.
Now, worse than staying,
And all the while, for 2 years, the steady monotone whine of "It's not our fault"
Yes, it fucking is.
You wanted it. You voted for it. You own it.
Yet we still haven't had the immediate guaranteed recession, car factories close down, City relocate to Frankfurt, stock market crash, refugee camps at Dover and crops rotting in the fields and all the other things we were told would happen in all those pasted tweets.
All we've discovered is that our politicians, Sir Humphreys and 'expert' diplomats are even more crap than we thought they were.
Though we would have discovered that under any circumstances.
The worst part is that the government should have started to prepare for a very narrow trade deal with the EU and begun the laborious process of getting our regulatory bodies international recognition so that the planes still flew and nuclear plants stayed on after Brexit day. These technical details seem to have been completely ignored by May and Hammond. They seem so interested in winning the air war they neglected to remember that it's ground troops that give one a lasting victory.
Brexiteers told them these things were not important
Easiest deal in history...
And Brexiteer rewriting of history to make those who warned and campaigned against it the villains is as doomed as the project itself
Brexiteers pointed out many of these issues. The Remainers in charge ignored them.
How long do you think Mrs May’s government would have lasted if she had announced a multi-billion pound programme on buying land in Dover just to increase her bargaining power?
I must have read that short story about 40 years ago and I still remember it vividly. Clarke, like a lot of early Sci-Fi writers, was much better at short stories based around a single idea than novels although Childhoods End was brilliant.
Indeed.
Clarke's work in the 1950s was brilliantly interesting and highly readable.
He had another creative splurge in the 1970s with Rendezvous with Rama and The Fountains of Paradise. The latter in particular may well come true one day.
Yeah the Tories are going to finish behind the Lib Dems in Lewisham, and probably finish behind the OMRLP. Who on earth thought sending the disgraced Liam Fox to campaign in a by election was a good idea?
Lewisham is currently a one party state and people feel they are being taken for granted by Labour.
This sort of thing gets trotted out in safe seats and one party councils all the time, from all sides. You hear people like the Greens all the time talking about how 'people are tired of being taken for granted' by the big two or the like.
But it never seems to be true. Or if they do feel like they are being taken for granted, they don't mind it as much as the prospect of someone else taking over. More likely, they like the one party state they have. So it is just a lazy cliche really.
Alternatively they view their state as being the UK and not Lewisham, their government as the national government not the local Council and thus they're not in a one party state.
The problem with Tories campaigning for change like that is that Lewisham residents likely won't view themselves as being in a Labour state. They'll view the government as being a Tory government and thus a Labour vote is a vote for change.
I am certainly not a May fan and would not vote for her but Ben's view of the Tory party seems to be very similar to the left wing view of Trump. Because they hate him so much they think that he must surely be hugely unpopular with everyone else and cannot possibly win another term. Now I wish they were right but looking at the current polling it does seem to me that as long as his luck holds with the economy (and it has been pure luck until now) he may well win again in 2020. I fear the same may be true for May if she lasts that long.
It could happen. I do trot out the 'most popular' party thing quite a bit because while they certainly don't arouse passion, and they've been a clear incompetent shambles as has been shown in the last 6 months especially (I sharn't be voting for them next time), when people talk as though they are toxic, or about to be tossed on their ear or something, it bears reminding that actually a lot of people are still backing them, grudgingly or not.
Now of course it is true that Corbyn and co are also very popular, it's pretty close between them and who knows what a campaign would bring, but no matter how much people hate May/Corbyn Tories/Labour or how bad we all think they are, there's little sign at the moment that the general public think they are so bad that they will face serious electoral consequences for it.
At the moment the most likely outcome if we had another GE would be either someone with a slim majority and a party divided on major issues, or an unstable coalition or confidence and supply agreement. And that outcome doesn't scream 'this party is terrible and toxic to the public' to me.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
It looks like a mash-up of Just A Minute with I’m Sorry I Haven’t A Clue.
They should try Blankety Blank.
"A treaty to align customs policies to avoid rules of origin bureaucracy and trade friction is called a customs blank?"
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
The worst part is that the government should have started to prepare for a very narrow trade deal with the EU and begun the laborious process of getting our regulatory bodies international recognition so that the planes still flew and nuclear plants stayed on after Brexit day. These technical details seem to have been completely ignored by May and Hammond. They seem so interested in winning the air war they neglected to remember that it's ground troops that give one a lasting victory.
Brexiteers told them these things were not important
Easiest deal in history...
And Brexiteer rewriting of history to make those who warned and campaigned against it the villains is as doomed as the project itself
Brexiteers pointed out many of these issues. The Remainers in charge ignored them.
How long do you think Mrs May’s government would have lasted if she had announced a multi-billion pound programme on buying land in Dover just to increase her bargaining power?
I don't think she'd have to, I think she'd need to start serious contingency planning on how to react like that if it became necessary. Having a Plan B doesn't mean implementing it, it means preparing for it so that you can action it if necessary.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
It is utterly baffling. Mr Cameron refused to allow contingency plans for a Leave vote. Mrs May doesn't learn from the experience.
What are these people thinking of?
Dave made contingencies for a Leave vote.
But couldn't do much because the experts in the civil service said what Vote Leave were promising was undeliverable and contradictory.
Two years on and they were right, Leavers still haven't worked out what type of Leave they want.
This is because we weren't allowed a vote on the repulsively imprisoning Article 50. That, it turns out, was the key in the lock of the prison cell. Ever since we have been like jailbirds trying to escape in a laundry van.
In retrospect, Cameron should have done a Wilson, allowed a referendum on Lisbon (after the event) and then gone back to Brussels, and said: I need change or next time we are OUT.
Indeed, Dave could easily have held a referendum campaigned against Lisbon, won and then "unratified" it and dared the EU to stop him. He would have won a majority in 2010 if he hadn't gone back on his cast iron guarantee, he would have got real and serious concessions from the EU by threatening to unratify Lisbon and that would have been enough to win leavers like myself over.
He was, unfortunately, without enough vision and backbone and the virulent EUphiles in the civil service always start with what isn't possible wrt to the EU.
How long do you think Mrs May’s government would have lasted if she had announced a multi-billion pound programme on buying land in Dover just to increase her bargaining power?
It's instructive to consider what the reaction from Brexiteers would have been. I think they'd have said it was all unnecessary and was weakening our hand. If your dream is to face down the EU in a game of chicken, any preparation would just be a sign of weakness.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
The remainer PM and Chancellor are most culpable.
Gove, Davis and Johnson are most culpable, on two counts: a) for spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy in the first place and b) for rank cowardice in not being prepared to challenge May if (as I am sure they will claim in future) they felt Brexit was not being run optimally.
Bollocks on point a. You lost to a bus. Get over it.
On point b I agree, they should have challenged May just now and resigned en masse. Her fudge with fudge is not working for anyone except the EU.
I submit as evidence in support of point a) 'spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy':
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
The remainer PM and Chancellor are most culpable.
Gove, Davis and Johnson are most culpable, on two counts: a) for spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy in the first place and b) for rank cowardice in not being prepared to challenge May if (as I am sure they will claim in future) they felt Brexit was not being run optimally.
Bollocks on point a. You lost to a bus. Get over it.
On point b I agree, they should have challenged May just now and resigned en masse. Her fudge with fudge is not working for anyone except the EU.
I submit as evidence in support of point a) 'spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy':
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
And their confidence is justified and will be rewarded.
The best case Brexit was a terminal clusterfuck that would stagnate the economy, knock points off trade and cause bitterness and resentment for a generation.
And the government are working night and day to deliver that.
The bitterness and resentment is just because a generation of metropolitan types were brought up to always get their own way and then screamed and wailed when they lost.
Once we actually get out and can sign our own trade deals, we will be in a position to cushion ourselves from the next Eurocrash, and give a better shot to the working class by no longer undercutting them with dirt cheap labour.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
This continual micawber strategy isn’t going to fly much longer. Feels like the PCP know this too...
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
It is utterly baffling. Mr Cameron refused to allow contingency plans for a Leave vote. Mrs May doesn't learn from the experience.
What are these people thinking of?
Dave made contingencies for a Leave vote.
But couldn't do much because the experts in the civil service said what Vote Leave were promising was undeliverable and contradictory.
Two years on and they were right, Leavers still haven't worked out what type of Leave they want.
That explains quite a lot.
So the experts in the Civil Service took their definition of leaving the EU from the prospectus of an ad hoc group without any great resources, and did no other thinking around the subject?
They (and Mr Cameron also) were planning all along to have the government of whatever colour roll over and give up the attempt to leave.
Once we actually get out and can sign our own trade deals, we will be in a position to cushion ourselves from the next Eurocrash, and give a better shot to the working class by no longer undercutting them with dirt cheap labour.
You think Rees Mogg and Aaron banks want Brexit because they care about the working class?
I am certainly not a May fan and would not vote for her but Ben's view of the Tory party seems to be very similar to the left wing view of Trump. Because they hate him so much they think that he must surely be hugely unpopular with everyone else and cannot possibly win another term. Now I wish they were right but looking at the current polling it does seem to me that as long as his luck holds with the economy (and it has been pure luck until now) he may well win again in 2020. I fear the same may be true for May if she lasts that long.
It could happen. I do trot out the 'most popular' party thing quite a bit because while they certainly don't arouse passion, and they've been a clear incompetent shambles as has been shown in the last 6 months especially (I sharn't be voting for them next time), when people talk as though they are toxic, or about to be tossed on their ear or something, it bears reminding that actually a lot of people are still backing them, grudgingly or not.
Now of course it is true that Corbyn and co are also very popular, it's pretty close between them and who knows what a campaign would bring, but no matter how much people hate May/Corbyn Tories/Labour or how bad we all think they are, there's little sign at the moment that the general public think they are so bad that they will face serious electoral consequences for it.
At the moment the most likely outcome if we had another GE would be either someone with a slim majority and a party divided on major issues, or an unstable coalition or confidence and supply agreement. And that outcome doesn't scream 'this party is terrible and toxic to the public' to me.
Here's an idea.
People don't expect or even want politicians to be too competent.
But think of it as some BGT show with oddballs and novelty acts and dismal failures who get voted off.
May and Hammond are the worst peacetime leadership duo we have ever had. Worse than Blair and Brown.
They aren't glorious. However they have been handed a very difficult task that is, frankly, perhaps beyond any leader. But they could certainly have done better.
She failed to do the most basic thing that would have prevented No Deal which was to prepare for No Deal.
In order to be taken seriously in a negotiation you need the other party to think you are prepared to walk away. That no deal would be better than a bad deal. You don't do that by hollow platitudes that simply piss off people but achieve nothing you do that by preparing for a Plan B.
Having a Plan B doesn't mean that is your desired outcome. It just means you're not screwed if you don't get Plan A.
We didn't do that so now the EU quite frankly are looking at us like vultures do ... and who can blame them?
The alternative to a deal is WTO terms, whether you prepare for it or not it will make little difference to the economy beyond the immediate practicalities.
The main issue with WTO terms is not the WTO it's the certifications etc that we haven't prepared for. Keeping the planes flying, nuclear, medicines etc all need certification by an internationally recognised body. 2 years getting our bodies recognised or an alternative sorted would have solved there issues but who's done that?
But it is also the EU;s problem. Just to take planes will not fly. Correct but Aviation manufacturing is in EASA as well. So yes planes will not fly and Airbus will go bust in a week or two with no deal as well. I know the reamainers say the EU has all the power, etc, etc. But no deal is in certain areas mutually assured destruction of industries.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
It is utterly baffling. Mr Cameron refused to allow contingency plans for a Leave vote. Mrs May doesn't learn from the experience.
What are these people thinking of?
Dave made contingencies for a Leave vote.
But couldn't do much because the experts in the civil service said what Vote Leave were promising was undeliverable and contradictory.
Two years on and they were right, Leavers still haven't worked out what type of Leave they want.
This is because we weren't allowed a vote on the repulsively imprisoning Article 50. That, it turns out, was the key in the lock of the prison cell. Ever since we have been like jailbirds trying to escape in a laundry van.
In retrospect, Cameron should have done a Wilson, allowed a referendum on Lisbon (after the event) and then gone back to Brussels, and said: I need change or next time we are OUT.
Indeed, Dave could easily have held a referendum campaigned against Lisbon, won and then "unratified" it and dared the EU to stop him. He would have won a majority in 2010 if he hadn't gone back on his cast iron guarantee, he would have got real and serious concessions from the EU by threatening to unratify Lisbon and that would have been enough to win leavers like myself over.
He was, unfortunately, without enough vision and backbone and the virulent EUphiles in the civil service always start with what isn't possible wrt to the EU.
No he couldn't that's utterly ridiculous. The changes had already happened, you can't unilaterally reverse them. He'd have been laughed off, trying to undo the Lisbon changes was impossible without all 28 nations unanimously passing a Treaty to reverse them.
The only options once Lisbon was ratified was to remain in the EU, to get a Treaty unanimously ratified to change the EU or vote to Leave the EU.
Ultimately Dave went for the second option, the EU said no so he backed the first and we said no and went for the third.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
The remainer PM and Chancellor are most culpable.
Gove, Davis and Johnson are most culpable, on two counts: a) for spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy in the first place and b) for rank cowardice in not being prepared to challenge May if (as I am sure they will claim in future) they felt Brexit was not being run optimally.
Bollocks on point a. You lost to a bus. Get over it.
On point b I agree, they should have challenged May just now and resigned en masse. Her fudge with fudge is not working for anyone except the EU.
I submit as evidence in support of point a) 'spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy':
How can global trade deals be sorted quickly when Remainers are fighting tooth and nail to keep us shackled to EU trade policy, forcing various fudges. You argue and argue for a compromise Brexit and then when those compromises prevent the Leave vision, you blame Leave.
Once we actually get out and can sign our own trade deals, we will be in a position to cushion ourselves from the next Eurocrash, and give a better shot to the working class by no longer undercutting them with dirt cheap labour.
Some left wing Brexiteers sound like bullying union bosses who act like anyone coming to work in the UK is a scab who's undermining the closed shop.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
Rubbish. The Conservative government are delivering the Brexit those Leave voters voted for ie regaining sovereignty as far as possible and reducing immigration by ending free movement by leaving the single market, policies also supported by Corbyn while also leaving the customs union to allow the trade deals the Leave campaign promised.
At the same time the government has also agreed to pay an exit bill, protect citizens' rights and agree regulatory alignment to try and get a FTA with the EU and resolve the Irish border. No government could have done much better in trying to combine respecting the Leave vote and getting an exit deal, a transition period and ultimately a FTA with the EU
Just so long a you recognise you are amongst a very small percentage who think Brexit is going well.
The worst part is that the government should have started to prepare for a very narrow trade deal with the EU and begun the laborious process of getting our regulatory bodies international recognition so that the planes still flew and nuclear plants stayed on after Brexit day. These technical details seem to have been completely ignored by May and Hammond. They seem so interested in winning the air war they neglected to remember that it's ground troops that give one a lasting victory.
Brexiteers told them these things were not important
Easiest deal in history...
And Brexiteer rewriting of history to make those who warned and campaigned against it the villains is as doomed as the project itself
You didn't campaign, and your "warning" consisted of twatting about on here in a manner calculated to drive people into the L:eave camp. The more you now bang on about how obvious it always was to clever people like you how pear-shaped it was all going to go, the more you condemn yourself as a spineless wazzock for not having done anything constructive about it while you had the chance.
Oh , this is the brilliant "It's all your fault - you should have done more to stop us self-harming" defence.
No it isn't. I feel guilty that all I did for the Remain cause was to vote for it, and if I had my time again I'd have been out knocking on doors. But then I do not perceive myself as being as clever as Scott perceives Scott to be (not by a factor of about 1,000), so I don't feel that guilty. the referendum wasn't won by Leave, it was lost by complacent Remain arsehats.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
It looks like a mash-up of Just A Minute with I’m Sorry I Haven’t A Clue.
They should try Blankety Blank.
"A treaty to align customs policies to avoid rules of origin bureaucracy and trade friction is called a customs blank?"
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
Agreed. She is not stupid but she seems to have no idea of what she wants. This is a problem.
I think her role model is Angela Merkel. She sees herself as someone who can bring people together and get a deal. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be true.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
The remainer PM and Chancellor are most culpable.
Gove, Davis and Johnson are most culpable, on two counts: a) for spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy in the first place and b) for rank cowardice in not being prepared to challenge May if (as I am sure they will claim in future) they felt Brexit was not being run optimally.
Bollocks on point a. You lost to a bus. Get over it.
On point b I agree, they should have challenged May just now and resigned en masse. Her fudge with fudge is not working for anyone except the EU.
I submit as evidence in support of point a) 'spinning a fantasy that Brexit would be easy':
How can global trade deals be sorted quickly when Remainers are fighting tooth and nail to keep us shackled to EU trade policy, forcing various fudges. You argue and argue for a compromise Brexit and then when those compromises prevent the Leave vision, you blame Leave.
Ok sorry, got it now. Brexit is not Leave's fault. Right...
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
Rubbish. The Conservative government are delivering the Brexit those Leave voters voted for ie regaining sovereignty as far as possible and reducing immigration by ending free movement by leaving the single markeperiod and ultimately a FTA with the EU
Just so long a you recognise you are amongst a very small percentage who think Brexit is going well.
What a pointless argument.
Remainers think Brexit is not going well as we are leaving the single market and customs union, Leavers think Brexit is not going well as we are paying an exit bill and having regulatory alignment (despite that being the only way to get a FTA with the EU) and a transition period.
The government is trying its best to appease both sides but it is logically impossible to do Brexit in any way which will not see a vast section of the electorate complaining.
Yeah the Tories are going to finish behind the Lib Dems in Lewisham, and probably finish behind the OMRLP. Who on earth thought sending the disgraced Liam Fox to campaign in a by election was a good idea?
Lewisham is currently a one party state and people feel they are being taken for granted by Labour.
This sort of thing gets trotted out in safe seats and one party councils all the time, from all sides. You hear people like the Greens all the time talking about how 'people are tired of being taken for granted' by the big two or the like.
But it never seems to be true. Or if they do feel like they are being taken for granted, they don't mind it as much as the prospect of someone else taking over. More likely, they like the one party state they have. So it is just a lazy cliche really.
Alternatively they view their state as being the UK and not Lewisham, their government as the national government not the local Council and thus they're not in a one party state. .
It's not a Lewisham thing though. Parties always claim about the others' strongholds that the public are sick of being taken for granted or whatever, but in almost all cases it remains, well, a stronghold. Clearly people in a stronghold are content, even if they are taken for granted.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
Competent enough to get by day to day, and steady enough to outlast the rivals.
Alternatively puts me in mind of a character from Ben Elton's book Blast from the Past, a military man who kept rising through the ranks despite being very mostly useless because they were so dull they never got into any scandals. IIRC at the end they become Chief of the Defence Staff, then President.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voters are not ballsing up the leave process, nor is Corbyn; the Conservative government, and only the Conservative government is doing that.
The Leave voters were entitled to think their elected government would exercise a degree of competence in executing the referendum result.
Rubbish. The Conservative government are delivering the Brexit those Leave voters voted for ie regaining sovereignty as far as possible and reducing immigration by ending free movement by leaving the single markeperiod and ultimately a FTA with the EU
Just so long a you recognise you are amongst a very small percentage who think Brexit is going well.
What a pointless argument.
Remainers think Brexit is not going well as we are leaving the single market and customs union, Leavers think Brexit is not going well as we are paying an exit bill and having regulatory alignment and a transition period.
The government is trying its best to appease both sides but it is logically impossible to do Brexit in any way which will not see a vast section of the electorate complaining.
On that point I do agree. No one will be very happy at the end of it.
But then I do not perceive myself as being as clever as Scott perceives Scott to be (not by a factor of about 1,000), so I don't feel that guilty. the referendum wasn't won by Leave, it was lost by complacent Remain arsehats.
LOL
I don't perceive my influence on the campaign to have been as great as you claim it to have been (not by a factor of about 1,000), so I don't feel that guilty
Yeah the Tories are going to finish behind the Lib Dems in Lewisham, and probably finish behind the OMRLP. Who on earth thought sending the disgraced Liam Fox to campaign in a by election was a good idea?
Lewisham is currently a one party state and people feel they are being taken for granted by Labour.
This sort of thing gets trotted out in safe seats and one party councils all the time, from all sides. You hear people like the Greens all the time talking about how 'people are tired of being taken for granted' by the big two or the like.
But it never seems to be true. Or if they do feel like they are being taken for granted, they don't mind it as much as the prospect of someone else taking over. More likely, they like the one party state they have. So it is just a lazy cliche really.
Alternatively they view their state as being the UK and not Lewisham, their government as the national government not the local Council and thus they're not in a one party state. .
It's not a Lewisham thing though. Parties always claim about the others' strongholds that the public are sick of being taken for granted or whatever, but in almost all cases it remains, well, a stronghold. Clearly people in a stronghold are content, even if they are taken for granted.
Because parties are wrong in their interpretation, and probably don't even believe it but think its the most effective campaigning line they can use.
Or people don't view their own stronghold in isolation. They view the changes back and forth in national elections and take that into account. A Labour voter in Lewisham doesn't think they're being taken for granted by a Labour government. They oppose the Tory government.
So when the PM stopped the government from planning for no deal Brexit and the Chancellor refused to set aside money for it in 2016, they were leavers?
Clueless as every Scott. I keep saying it, you need to stick to copying from twatter. You can't do original thought.
David Davis was Brexit Secretary 8 months before Mrs May triggered Article 50.
You Leavers own this.
He should have forced the issue and resigned. However, the buck stops with May and she's a remainer.
The buck stops with the Conservative government - the whole fecking incompetent bunch of them! They will all be remembered for this shambles.
The buck actually stops with the 17 million voters who voted Leave despite the Conservative government of the time warning of the difficulties of implementing the Leave campaign's promises.
In terms of implementing Brexit Corbyn's policy is virtually identical to May's
The 17 milllion Leave voter
Rubbish. The Conservative government are delivering the Brexit those Leave voters voted for ie regaining sovereignty as far as possible and reducing immigration by ending free movement by leaving the single markeperiod and ultimately a FTA with the EU
Just so long a you recognise you are amongst a very small percentage who think Brexit is going well.
What a pointless argument.
Remainers think Brexit is not going well as we are leaving the single market and customs union, Leavers think Brexit is not going well as we are paying an exit bill and having regulatory alignment and a transition period.
The government is trying its best to appease both sides but it is logically impossible to do Brexit in any way which will not see a vast section of the electorate complaining.
On that point I do agree. No one will be very happy at the end of it.
Despite my earlier words I will be happy if we can all have a great big helping of fudge at the end of this. That at least seemed plausible initially, but no deal is looking more likely by the day.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
This continual micawber strategy isn’t going to fly much longer. Feels like the PCP know this too...
I had hoped that Wednesday would be it but it appears not. Hey ho.
Despite my earlier words I will be happy if we can all have a great big helping of fudge at the end of this. That at least seemed plausible initially, but no deal is looking more likely by the day.
Whatever it is we shall survive, and be out of the project. Once we've undocked, it doesn't matter how slowly we diverge, or even if we merely steam alongside in convoy.
But then I do not perceive myself as being as clever as Scott perceives Scott to be (not by a factor of about 1,000), so I don't feel that guilty. the referendum wasn't won by Leave, it was lost by complacent Remain arsehats.
LOL
I don't perceive my influence on the campaign to have been as great as you claim it to have been (not by a factor of about 1,000), so I don't feel that guilty
Ah the "Aw shucks, no one gonna pay no nevermind to little ol' me" argument. Do you refrain from voting in elections and referendums on the same basis? Do you think the thousands of people in the country who do campaign politically do it out of delusions of grandeur, or in the belief that if something is really important to them, doing a tiny bit for it is better than doing absolutely nothing? And if you seriously think that your opinions are utterly without interest or merit of any kind - and I'm not going to argue with you - had you thought of keeping them to yourself?
Bomb Dublin. What would they do? Invade us with their theme pubs?
Irish theme pubs? a bit nineties methinks. We get their crappy cider now too.
Anyone who thinks that the Irish are going to pull our nuts out of the fire is deluded. They are enjoying seeing our government humiliated. The history of the last 100 years shows that.
Brexiteers want Parliament to be Sovereign, just not right now...
I remain baffled why you keep pursuing that line of argument as though it is clever - If parliament chooses, in a vote, to not do something, it is still parliament choosing what to do even if it is what the executive wants it to do. If Parliament has a genuine choice, then it is sovereign no matter the outcome. The government trying to trigger article 50 was, it turns out, trying to keep sovereignty away from parliament. Parliament having the option to do something but voting to take a different option? Not losing sovereignty.
You seem to think that if there is option a and option b, and parliament chooses the wrong one, it no longer has sovereignty.
You also trot it out as though parliament not doing something is a lack of sovereignty even on things it has never done and so it has nothing to 'take back'. You really should try not overusing the phrase, as you make it meaningless, and pretend it applies to things it self evidently does not. It's like the silly cries of things being undemocratic that some people randomly throw out when what they mean is 'I don't like this'.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
Agreed. She is not stupid but she seems to have no idea of what she wants. This is a problem.
I think her role model is Angela Merkel. She sees herself as someone who can bring people together and get a deal. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be true.
You think someone else would do better ? The problem's the iceberg, not the person arranging the deckchairs.
So if I am interpreting this correctly, the Tories would prefer to have a leadership election in the autumn than have their summer holiday plans disrupted.
Wales failed to qualify. If they had, then maybe the Biggest Fool in Wales MP could perhaps have usefully commented.
Still, at least Stephen believes that England should be allowed to continue. "Mr Kinnock said pulling England out of the World Cup would have been wrong". It must be a great relief to England fans that Stephen has signed off on their participation.
Kinnock's comments have no relevance -- he might as well offer his opinion on the Belgian or Peruvian team.
Still, it makes a nice break from enriching himself, and presiding over the pauperisation of his desperately poor constituency.
Bomb Dublin. What would they do? Invade us with their theme pubs?
You make more sense when you're sober Sean.
No, I don't. I really don't. I make more sense when I am not bored senseless by tedious Remainery bollocks.
Which is what dullard europhiles like Scott P and Alisder Meeks excrete, day after day. Yes. Brexit is a bitch, and will fuck us up for a while. Why? Because Article 50 makes it deliberately rough and punitive. Why are we signed up to A50? Because it was in the EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty, on which europhiles promised us a referendum (and which eurosceptics would doubtless have won, and therefore nixed) but then they reneged on that promise, and so here we are. Stuck with A50.
Brexiting is awful and painful. Why? Because europhiles lied and forced us into Treaties we didn't want, and which we would have voted down, if the europhiles had possessed an ounce of moral worth and had fulfilled their promises.
Europhiles are lying c*nts, by definition. They are life undeserving of life. Discuss.
NOW I will drink.
Amazing and this is actually more coherent than Tyndall’s views on Brexit.
Bomb Dublin. What would they do? Invade us with their theme pubs?
You make more sense when you're sober Sean.
No, I don't. I really don't. I make more sense when I am not bored senseless by tedious Remainery bollocks.
Which is what dullard europhiles like Scott P and Alisder Meeks excrete, day after day. Yes. Brexit is a bitch, and will fuck us up for a while. Why? Because Article 50 makes it deliberately rough and punitive. Why are we signed up to A50? Because it was in the EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty, on which europhiles promised us a referendum (and which eurosceptics would doubtless have won, and therefore nixed) but then they reneged on that promise, and so here we are. Stuck with A50.
Brexiting is awful and painful. Why? Because europhiles lied and forced us into Treaties we didn't want, and which we would have voted down, if the europhiles had possessed an ounce of moral worth and had fulfilled their promises.
Europhiles are lying c*nts, by definition. They are life undeserving of life. Discuss.
NOW I will drink.
You won and now you are blaming the side that lost! WTF!
You are absolutely spot-on about the consequences of Brexit - a clusterf*ck!
Yet your side lost to it. How shit was the remain campaign?
Now that "they need us more than we need them" has been debunked
Now that "German Car Makers" have evaporated
Now that "they can go whistle" has been reverse-ferreted
All that is left for Leavers is "Yeah it was all lies but we won so ner ner ner ner ner"
So yeah - big pat on the back for winning a referendum.
Now that "there will be an immediate recession" has been debunked.
Now that "the car factories will shut down" has evaporated.
Now that "the City will relocate to Frankfurt" has disappeared.
Now that "there will be refugee camps at Dover" has gone into hiding.
Now that "the crops will rot in the fields" has been laughed at.
All that is left for Remainers is "Your politicians are crap".
So yeah - big pat on the back for stating the bleeding obvious.
None of those will happen. Why? Because the government will realise that we are over the barrel because a decent proportion of MPs and the country believed the fantasy. And the government will give in to Brussels rather than face the apocalypse.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
Agreed. She is not stupid but she seems to have no idea of what she wants. This is a problem.
I think her role model is Angela Merkel. She sees herself as someone who can bring people together and get a deal. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be true.
You think someone else would do better ? The problem's the iceberg, not the person arranging the deckchairs.
If Brexit is the iceberg it is only because the EU was the Titanic which was being so badly steered in the first place. Personally I think the British are the lucky ones who got to the lifeboats first.
Yet your side lost to it. How shit was the remain campaign?
Now that "they need us more than we need them" has been debunked
Now that "German Car Makers" have evaporated
Now that "they can go whistle" has been reverse-ferreted
All that is left for Leavers is "Yeah it was all lies but we won so ner ner ner ner ner"
So yeah - big pat on the back for winning a referendum.
Now that "there will be an immediate recession" has been debunked.
Now that "the car factories will shut down" has evaporated.
Now that "the City will relocate to Frankfurt" has disappeared.
Now that "there will be refugee camps at Dover" has gone into hiding.
Now that "the crops will rot in the fields" has been laughed at.
All that is left for Remainers is "Your politicians are crap".
So yeah - big pat on the back for stating the bleeding obvious.
None of those will happen. Why? Because the government will realise that we are over the barrel because a decent proportion of MPs and the country believed the fantasy. And the government will give in to Brussels rather than face the apocalypse.
According to the Remainiacs they were all supposed to have happened already.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
Competent enough to get by day to day, and steady enough to outlast the rivals.
Alternatively puts me in mind of a character from Ben Elton's book Blast from the Past, a military man who kept rising through the ranks despite being very mostly useless because they were so dull they never got into any scandals. IIRC at the end they become Chief of the Defence Staff, then President.
Yet your side lost to it. How shit was the remain campaign?
Now that "they need us more than we need them" has been debunked
Now that "German Car Makers" have evaporated
Now that "they can go whistle" has been reverse-ferreted
All that is left for Leavers is "Yeah it was all lies but we won so ner ner ner ner ner"
So yeah - big pat on the back for winning a referendum.
Now that "there will be an immediate recession" has been debunked.
Now that "the car factories will shut down" has evaporated.
Now that "the City will relocate to Frankfurt" has disappeared.
Now that "there will be refugee camps at Dover" has gone into hiding.
Now that "the crops will rot in the fields" has been laughed at.
All that is left for Remainers is "Your politicians are crap".
So yeah - big pat on the back for stating the bleeding obvious.
None of those will happen. Why? Because the government will realise that we are over the barrel because a decent proportion of MPs and the country believed the fantasy. And the government will give in to Brussels rather than face the apocalypse.
You must have missed a thousand pasted tweets two years ago.
All of those things were supposed to have happened already.
Bomb Dublin. What would they do? Invade us with their theme pubs?
You make more sense when you're sober Sean.
No, I don't. I really don't. I make more sense when I am not bored senseless by tedious Remainery bollocks.
Which is what dullard europhiles like Scott P and Alisder Meeks excrete, day after day. Yes. Brexit is a bitch, and will fuck us up for a while. Why? Because Article 50 makes it deliberately rough and punitive. Why are we signed up to A50? Because it was in the EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty, on which europhiles promised us a referendum (and which eurosceptics would doubtless have won, and therefore nixed) but then they reneged on that promise, and so here we are. Stuck with A50.
Brexiting is awful and painful. Why? Because europhiles lied and forced us into Treaties we didn't want, and which we would have voted down, if the europhiles had possessed an ounce of moral worth and had fulfilled their promises.
Europhiles are lying c*nts, by definition. They are life undeserving of life. Discuss.
NOW I will drink.
Amazing and this is actually more coherent than Tyndall’s views on Brexit.
Topping you are simply too fucking dumb to understand anyone's views on Brexit. Most of the time I am amazed you even know how to use a keyboard.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
Agreed. She is not stupid but she seems to have no idea of what she wants. This is a problem.
I think her role model is Angela Merkel. She sees herself as someone who can bring people together and get a deal. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be true.
You think someone else would do better ? The problem's the iceberg, not the person arranging the deckchairs.
If Brexit is the iceberg it is only because the EU was the Titanic which was being so badly steered in the first place. Personally I think the British are the lucky ones who got to the lifeboats first.
Very ignoble view of your fellow Brits there Richard we’re not all like you scrabbling to escape when the going gets tough. Not surprising, that said.
Good. Let's hope the EU-rocrats finally believe this. And start shitting themselves.
Negotiations might start getting somewhere then.
The brown trousers are on this side of the table. The EU27 seem quite sanguine, and bemused by our passive aggressive tantrum.
It is now six months to go, and from what I see all we seem to have discussed is what we signed up to last December. If it was poorly understood then, why did we sign.
9 months to go, and no visible progress seems to put the default No Deal Brexit in pole position.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Yes, either that or it is meaningless and worthless.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
Agreed. She is not stupid but she seems to have no idea of what she wants. This is a problem.
I think her role model is Angela Merkel. She sees herself as someone who can bring people together and get a deal. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be true.
You think someone else would do better ? The problem's the iceberg, not the person arranging the deckchairs.
If Brexit is the iceberg it is only because the EU was the Titanic which was being so badly steered in the first place. Personally I think the British are the lucky ones who got to the lifeboats first.
Very ignoble view of your fellow Brits there Richard we’re not all like you scrabbling to escape when the going gets tough. Not surprising, that said.
The country as a whole has had the sense to abandon the ship. Just be grateful we found room for you in spite of your desire to sink beneath the icy waters.
I'm not sure what the above means but if Stephen Hammond, Morgan, Mogg and Bill Cash have all signed it (A wide variety of Tory views) then May should probably go with it.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean anything. It buys time but to what purpose? What does May want other than for this to all go away?
May really is an enigma.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
Agreed. She is not stupid but she seems to have no idea of what she wants. This is a problem.
I think her role model is Angela Merkel. She sees herself as someone who can bring people together and get a deal. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be true.
You think someone else would do better ? The problem's the iceberg, not the person arranging the deckchairs.
If Brexit is the iceberg it is only because the EU was the Titanic which was being so badly steered in the first place. Personally I think the British are the lucky ones who got to the lifeboats first.
Very ignoble view of your fellow Brits there Richard we’re not all like you scrabbling to escape when the going gets tough. Not surprising, that said.
The country as a whole has had the sense to abandon the ship. Just be grateful we found room for you in spite of your desire to sink beneath the icy waters.
Those in steerage are going to find it a bit chilly.
Will it be another 'Garden Bridge' like the last half-arsed scheme he championed?
He also championed a bridge from England to France. Perhaps we might combine all three projects and build a garden bridge from Kilkeel to Dieppe by way of Stranraer.
Comments
On point b I agree, they should have challenged May just now and resigned en masse. Her fudge with fudge is not working for anyone except the EU.
At the same time the government has also agreed to pay an exit bill, protect citizens' rights and agree regulatory alignment to try and get a FTA with the EU and resolve the Irish border. No government could have done much better in trying to combine respecting the Leave vote and getting an exit deal, a transition period and ultimately a FTA with the EU
All we've discovered is that our politicians, Sir Humphreys and 'expert' diplomats are even more crap than we thought they were.
Though we would have discovered that under any circumstances.
The problem with Tories campaigning for change like that is that Lewisham residents likely won't view themselves as being in a Labour state. They'll view the government as being a Tory government and thus a Labour vote is a vote for change.
Now of course it is true that Corbyn and co are also very popular, it's pretty close between them and who knows what a campaign would bring, but no matter how much people hate May/Corbyn Tories/Labour or how bad we all think they are, there's little sign at the moment that the general public think they are so bad that they will face serious electoral consequences for it.
At the moment the most likely outcome if we had another GE would be either someone with a slim majority and a party divided on major issues, or an unstable coalition or confidence and supply agreement. And that outcome doesn't scream 'this party is terrible and toxic to the public' to me.
"A treaty to align customs policies to avoid rules of origin bureaucracy and trade friction is called a customs blank?"
He was, unfortunately, without enough vision and backbone and the virulent EUphiles in the civil service always start with what isn't possible wrt to the EU.
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1002541345964216321
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1006274161768058880
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1006274440546660353
No, we didn't mean now
Once we actually get out and can sign our own trade deals, we will be in a position to cushion ourselves from the next Eurocrash, and give a better shot to the working class by no longer undercutting them with dirt cheap labour.
She doesn't seem to have any big ideas, she doesn't seem to have any leadership skills, she doesn't seem to have any people skills and she doesn't seem to be personally ambitious.
It seems odd that she went into politics and then progressed so far up the ladder.
So the experts in the Civil Service took their definition of leaving the EU from the prospectus of an ad hoc group without any great resources, and did no other thinking around the subject?
They (and Mr Cameron also) were planning all along to have the government of whatever colour roll over and give up the attempt to leave.
All falling into place now.
Bless...
The Leavers don't want to own Brexit. WTF!
You own it you thick mother-f*cks. Own it FFS!
Brexit = a calamity
Brexiteers = Idiots!
People don't expect or even want politicians to be too competent.
But think of it as some BGT show with oddballs and novelty acts and dismal failures who get voted off.
So yes planes will not fly and Airbus will go bust in a week or two with no deal as well.
I know the reamainers say the EU has all the power, etc, etc. But no deal is in certain areas mutually assured destruction of industries.
The only options once Lisbon was ratified was to remain in the EU, to get a Treaty unanimously ratified to change the EU or vote to Leave the EU.
Ultimately Dave went for the second option, the EU said no so he backed the first and we said no and went for the third.
Which bit of Parliamentary Sovereignty is confusing you?
https://twitter.com/PhilHoganEU/status/1006216261410402309
I think her role model is Angela Merkel. She sees herself as someone who can bring people together and get a deal. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be true.
Now that "they need us more than we need them" has been debunked
Now that "German Car Makers" have evaporated
Now that "they can go whistle" has been reverse-ferreted
All that is left for Leavers is "Yeah it was all lies but we won so ner ner ner ner ner"
So yeah - big pat on the back for winning a referendum.
Brexit democracy strikes again.
Remainers think Brexit is not going well as we are leaving the single market and customs union, Leavers think Brexit is not going well as we are paying an exit bill and having regulatory alignment (despite that being the only way to get a FTA with the EU) and a transition period.
The government is trying its best to appease both sides but it is logically impossible to do Brexit in any way which will not see a vast section of the electorate complaining.
Brexiteers want Parliament to be Sovereign, just not right now...
Alternatively puts me in mind of a character from Ben Elton's book Blast from the Past, a military man who kept rising through the ranks despite being very mostly useless because they were so dull they never got into any scandals. IIRC at the end they become Chief of the Defence Staff, then President.
I don't perceive my influence on the campaign to have been as great as you claim it to have been (not by a factor of about 1,000), so I don't feel that guilty
That's all that springs to mind.
Or people don't view their own stronghold in isolation. They view the changes back and forth in national elections and take that into account. A Labour voter in Lewisham doesn't think they're being taken for granted by a Labour government. They oppose the Tory government.
Coz pouring petrol on a flame is the best way of putting out a fire...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5831847/West-London-street-closed-two-men-stabbed.html
Now that "the car factories will shut down" has evaporated.
Now that "the City will relocate to Frankfurt" has disappeared.
Now that "there will be refugee camps at Dover" has gone into hiding.
Now that "the crops will rot in the fields" has been laughed at.
All that is left for Remainers is "Your politicians are crap".
So yeah - big pat on the back for stating the bleeding obvious.
Good night all, thanks for the discussions.
Anyone who thinks that the Irish are going to pull our nuts out of the fire is deluded. They are enjoying seeing our government humiliated. The history of the last 100 years shows that.
You seem to think that if there is option a and option b, and parliament chooses the wrong one, it no longer has sovereignty.
You also trot it out as though parliament not doing something is a lack of sovereignty even on things it has never done and so it has nothing to 'take back'. You really should try not overusing the phrase, as you make it meaningless, and pretend it applies to things it self evidently does not. It's like the silly cries of things being undemocratic that some people randomly throw out when what they mean is 'I don't like this'.
And this time really good night.
Why else delay the inevitable?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44442143
Wales failed to qualify. If they had, then maybe the Biggest Fool in Wales MP could perhaps have usefully commented.
Still, at least Stephen believes that England should be allowed to continue. "Mr Kinnock said pulling England out of the World Cup would have been wrong". It must be a great relief to England fans that Stephen has signed off on their participation.
Kinnock's comments have no relevance -- he might as well offer his opinion on the Belgian or Peruvian team.
Still, it makes a nice break from enriching himself, and presiding over the pauperisation of his desperately poor constituency.
Good. Let's hope the EU-rocrats finally believe this. And start shitting themselves.
Negotiations might start getting somewhere then.
You are absolutely spot-on about the consequences of Brexit - a clusterf*ck!
Why?
Because the government will realise that we are over the barrel because a decent proportion of MPs and the country believed the fantasy.
And the government will give in to Brussels rather than face the apocalypse.
https://twitter.com/alliehbnews/status/1006276356693483520?s=21
All of those things were supposed to have happened already.
It is now six months to go, and from what I see all we seem to have discussed is what we signed up to last December. If it was poorly understood then, why did we sign.
9 months to go, and no visible progress seems to put the default No Deal Brexit in pole position.
It.is so depressing and leads nowhere
Persuasive arguments are the way to change minds not torrents of abuse
But either a bridge or a tunnel would be uneconomically expensive, a really poor use of resources.
Unless perhaps a pontoon bridge, which might be worth a flutter.
Tumbleweed...