I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Don't pay them well?
Average UK income: £27,271 MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
I expect the best opportunities for politicians to earn the big money comes after they have left front line politics and start taking up directorships etc.
Though those opportunities are mostly restricted to former Prime Ministers and Cabinet Ministers not your average backbencher
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Completely wrong, and an opinion that could only originate from London
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
According to Wikipedia, the media for full time employees was £27,000 in 2014, so it seems reasonable to assume the current median is probably £29,000 or so.
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
Like I said the other day within days of a no deal Brexit, Leavers will be either forced to recant their Brexit beliefs or be thrown into the sea with concrete shoes.
I would hope you'd accept a profuse apology and some kind of non lethal penance. Even if the highest risk scenario was a greater chance than I should have realised in my foolishness it doesn't retrospectively become a certainty, as even most remainers didn't expect no deal.
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
According to Wikipedia, the media for full time employees was £27,000 in 2014, so it seems reasonable to assume the current median is probably £29,000 or so.
So how exactly is Michael Gove supposed to sell a deal to parliament without a majority? Has he a clever solution for the Northern Ireland border conundrum in his back pocket. He may have that ideological enthusiasm for Brexit that Theresa May has never convinced on - but surely he'd be stuck with all the same constraints.
Unless he felt like another snap General Election might help things.
Apparently his plan is to breach EU rules by signing trade deals. No doubt Liam Fox has a stack of them just waiting for a PM with the guts to sign...
Surely that will be against the law as we signed to be in the EU unless we will now renege on existing and legally binding treaties even if some Britons we do not like them!
Yes, I am sure many nations will be falling over themselves to sign a trade deal with a country that reneges on its legally binding treaties.
I would hope you'd accept a profuse apology and some kind of non lethal penance. Even if the highest risk scenario was a greater chance than I should have realised in my foolishness it doesn't retrospectively become a certainty, as even most remainers didn't expect no deal.
No.
Before the vote, Remainers said this is a BAD idea and BAD things will happen.
If, as a result of your vote, BAD things happen, you can't plead innocence.
So how exactly is Michael Gove supposed to sell a deal to parliament without a majority? Has he a clever solution for the Northern Ireland border conundrum in his back pocket. He may have that ideological enthusiasm for Brexit that Theresa May has never convinced on - but surely he'd be stuck with all the same constraints.
Unless he felt like another snap General Election might help things.
Apparently his plan is to breach EU rules by signing trade deals. No doubt Liam Fox has a stack of them just waiting for a PM with the guts to sign...
Surely that will be against the law as we signed to be in the EU unless we will now renege on existing and legally binding treaties even if some Britons we do not like them!
Yes, I am sure many nations will be falling over themselves to sign a trade deal with a country that reneges on its legally binding treaties.
If Brexit fails it will because of the incompetence of the Tories... And they will deserve everything they have coming to them when Corbyn turfs them out.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Completely wrong, and an opinion that could only originate from London
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
That is not really a second job just a promotion, if you manage something you often still have to do most of the job you were previously doing as well
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Completely wrong, and an opinion that could only originate from London
Like I said the other day within days of a no deal Brexit, Leavers will be either forced to recant their Brexit beliefs or be thrown into the sea with concrete shoes.
I would hope you'd accept a profuse apology and some kind of non lethal penance. Even if the highest risk scenario was a greater chance than I should have realised in my foolishness it doesn't retrospectively become a certainty, as even most remainers didn't expect no deal.
Nope, you were warned beforehand by myself and others this was a very strong possibility.
Whenever I want a good laugh I go back and read the abuse Alastair received when he wrote a pre referendum thread that doing a deal within 2-3 years was unlikely given how long it took to sort out other deals.
We need a de-Leaverifaction process like West Germany did with the Nazis post WWII the poison needs to be drained lest it come back and take the whole body.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can y.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Completely wrong, and an opinion that could only originate from London
OK. What was the average or median pay in , say, 1968 and 2018 ? What was the MPs pay in 1968 and 2018 ?
An MP is a potential Cabinet Minister or even PM. Do we really want them to be average ?
An Irish TD [ 120 of them in a country of 5 million ] earns € 93599. The Taoiseach earns aroung € 190,000.
Top 5% for even backbenchers isn't "average" and that's for backbenchers. Cabinet Ministers and PMs earn far more.
The PM though should be paid at least £170 000 which would take them into the top 1% and Cabinet Ministers should be paid a bit more too. Backbenchers are probably paid about right
Like I said the other day within days of a no deal Brexit, Leavers will be either forced to recant their Brexit beliefs or be thrown into the sea with concrete shoes.
I would hope you'd accept a profuse apology and some kind of non lethal penance. Even if the highest risk scenario was a greater chance than I should have realised in my foolishness it doesn't retrospectively become a certainty, as even most remainers didn't expect no deal.
Nope, you were warned beforehand by myself and others this was a very strong possibility.
Whenever I want a good laugh I go back and read the abuse Alastair received when he wrote a pre referendum thread that doing a deal within 2-3 years was unlikely given how long it took to sort out other deals.
We need a de-Leaverifaction process like West Germany did with the Nazis post WWII the poison needs to be drained lest it come back and take the whole body.
How about a de-Godwinification process for TSE's PB comments?
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
That is not really a second job just a promotion, if you manage something you often still have to do most of the job you were previously doing as well
No it's a second job. Over a hundred Ministers manage to fit their MP work into a fraction of their weekly work, what makes their weekly work Full Time for non-Ministers?
Parliament doesn't even sit Full Time hours, the statutory leave requirement is 28 days per year (5 weeks and 3 days) with Parliament off for far more than that.
So how exactly is Michael Gove supposed to sell a deal to parliament without a majority? Has he a clever solution for the Northern Ireland border conundrum in his back pocket. He may have that ideological enthusiasm for Brexit that Theresa May has never convinced on - but surely he'd be stuck with all the same constraints.
Unless he felt like another snap General Election might help things.
Apparently his plan is to breach EU rules by signing trade deals. No doubt Liam Fox has a stack of them just waiting for a PM with the guts to sign...
Surely that will be against the law as we signed to be in the EU unless we will now renege on existing and legally binding treaties even if some Britons we do not like them!
Yes, I am sure many nations will be falling over themselves to sign a trade deal with a country that reneges on its legally binding treaties.
Like Germany and its car emissions ?
Interesting point (though of course Germany is not seeking trade deals around the world).
Can you point me at a summary of how Germany has broken legally binding treaties over 'dieselgate' (as opposed to German manufacturers fraudulently manipulating emissions results)? It's a genuine question - I suspect you will have some evidence, I am just not up to speed on the topic. Thanks.
If Brexit fails it will because of the incompetence of the Tories... And they will deserve everything they have coming to them when Corbyn turfs them out.
It is May trying to sort out the mess Brexiteers made of campaigning for Brexit without doing enough of the detailed preparation for a Leave vote.
As for Corbyn he will have to manage the impossible combination in the event of a bad Brexit of working class Labour Leave voters and urban graduate Labour Remain voters.
Plus of course the Tories would swiftly recover with Corbyn and McDonnell at the helm of the economy
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
Oh, I guess as long as the SNP still sees independence from the UK as a realistic goal there's hope for severance of UK from the EU.
If it proves impossible to unpick a 40-year alliance, it's hard to see how we're going to unpick a 300-year one.
That's the thing; it would not be impossible to unpick our relationship with the EU.
It would take a decade (at least) and cost a fortune, but we could do it.
That's not Brexit though. Brexit, as voted for by the Great British Public, is quick, simple and painless. Those are the contradictions which are suffocating it.
I did notice it was around the time a lot of Russian troll accounts got purged.
But Plato was a real person - was she some sort of deep lying Russian agent ?
I did occasionally wonder if Plato were actually two people but then part of the appeal of the internet is no-one knows you're a Russian troll dog. Did she ever attend a pb meeting?
She was definitely a real person and not a paid troll. AFAIK she attended some pb meet-ups and also was in the early days very open about her whole personal history / circumstances (and was never caught out that they were incorrect in any way). Not exactly the MO of a Russian troll bot.
So how exactly is Michael Gove supposed to sell a deal to parliament without a majority? Has he a clever solution for the Northern Ireland border conundrum in his back pocket. He may have that ideological enthusiasm for Brexit that Theresa May has never convinced on - but surely he'd be stuck with all the same constraints.
Unless he felt like another snap General Election might help things.
Apparently his plan is to breach EU rules by signing trade deals. No doubt Liam Fox has a stack of them just waiting for a PM with the guts to sign...
Surely that will be against the law as we signed to be in the EU unless we will now renege on existing and legally binding treaties even if some Britons we do not like them!
Yes, I am sure many nations will be falling over themselves to sign a trade deal with a country that reneges on its legally binding treaties.
Like Germany and its car emissions ?
Interesting point (though of course Germany is not seeking trade deals around the world).
Can you point me at a summary of how Germany has broken legally binding treaties over 'dieselgate' (as opposed to German manufacturers fraudulently manipulating emissions results)? It's a genuine question - I suspect you will have some evidence, I am just not up to speed on the topic. Thanks.
There are PBers far more knowledgeable about the story than I am but a quick google:
' Meeting minutes, correspondence and conversation records that SPIEGEL ONLINE and the Swedish daily Svenska Dagbladet have obtained now show that the European Commission and member states knew, since 2010 at the latest, that the extremely harmful emissions from diesel cars were strikingly higher than legal levels.
But apparently none of the officials wanted the automakers to tell them why this was the case. According to EU officials, pressure from countries with a strong auto industry, most notably Germany, significantly reduced interest in an investigation. Instead of doing something about the environmental policy violation, the Commission and the member states passed the buck to each other. This undignified back-and-forth even continued after the VW scandal about manipulated diesel cars in the United States was exposed in September 2015. '
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
That is not really a second job just a promotion, if you manage something you often still have to do most of the job you were previously doing as well
No it's a second job. Over a hundred Ministers manage to fit their MP work into a fraction of their weekly work, what makes their weekly work Full Time for non-Ministers?
Parliament doesn't even sit Full Time hours, the statutory leave requirement is 28 days per year (5 weeks and 3 days) with Parliament off for far more than that.
They don't as being a backbencher requires you ask questions to Ministers whereas being a Minister you answer them instead.
Ministers still do their constituency work too but a lot of that they can do at weekends in the constituency and like backbenchers they have staff to help on it in the week
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
That is not really a second job just a promotion, if you manage something you often still have to do most of the job you were previously doing as well
No it's a second job. Over a hundred Ministers manage to fit their MP work into a fraction of their weekly work, what makes their weekly work Full Time for non-Ministers?
Parliament doesn't even sit Full Time hours, the statutory leave requirement is 28 days per year (5 weeks and 3 days) with Parliament off for far more than that.
Just put your fingers in your ears and go 'La La La' and you will have completed the look.
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
It depends how it ends. May could yet look like the heroine who tested Brexit to destruction while avoiding actually Brexitting.
They got it going again but they'll do well to nurse it back to London.
TfL Rail is now running the local stopping service to Heathrow Airport (inc. Terminal 4), with the new Class 345. Means that Heathrow Central main line station is finally Oystercard/Contactless compatible
Oh, I guess as long as the SNP still sees independence from the UK as a realistic goal there's hope for severance of UK from the EU.
If it proves impossible to unpick a 40-year alliance, it's hard to see how we're going to unpick a 300-year one.
This is a category error. Brexit isn't secession from a sovereign state but withdrawal from a treaty organisation accompanied by demands to renegotiate the benefits of what we already have on our own terms.
In comparison Scottish independence is tangible and deliverable.
Apparently his plan is to breach EU rules by signing trade deals. No doubt Liam Fox has a stack of them just waiting for a PM with the guts to sign...
Surely that will be against the law as we signed to be in the EU unless we will now renege on existing and legally binding treaties even if some Britons we do not like them!
Yes, I am sure many nations will be falling over themselves to sign a trade deal with a country that reneges on its legally binding treaties.
Like Germany and its car emissions ?
Interesting point (though of course Germany is not seeking trade deals around the world).
Can you point me at a summary of how Germany has broken legally binding treaties over 'dieselgate' (as opposed to German manufacturers fraudulently manipulating emissions results)? It's a genuine question - I suspect you will have some evidence, I am just not up to speed on the topic. Thanks.
There are PBers far more knowledgeable about the story than I am but a quick google:
' Meeting minutes, correspondence and conversation records that SPIEGEL ONLINE and the Swedish daily Svenska Dagbladet have obtained now show that the European Commission and member states knew, since 2010 at the latest, that the extremely harmful emissions from diesel cars were strikingly higher than legal levels.
But apparently none of the officials wanted the automakers to tell them why this was the case. According to EU officials, pressure from countries with a strong auto industry, most notably Germany, significantly reduced interest in an investigation. Instead of doing something about the environmental policy violation, the Commission and the member states passed the buck to each other. This undignified back-and-forth even continued after the VW scandal about manipulated diesel cars in the United States was exposed in September 2015. '
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
It depends how it ends. May could yet look like the heroine who tested Brexit to destruction while avoiding actually Brexitting.
Yes that is a (small I think) possibility. But "no deal is better than a bad deal" will surely rank with "peace in our time" as one of the most myopic and deluded political declarations ever made by a British PM.
Oh, I guess as long as the SNP still sees independence from the UK as a realistic goal there's hope for severance of UK from the EU.
If it proves impossible to unpick a 40-year alliance, it's hard to see how we're going to unpick a 300-year one.
This is a category error. Brexit isn't secession from a sovereign state but withdrawal from a treaty organisation accompanied by demands to renegotiate the benefits of what we already have on our own terms.
In comparison Scottish independence is tangible and deliverable.
Scotland exports more to the UK than the UK does to the EU and has centuries of UK statues affecting it unlike less than 50 years of EU law affecting the UK
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
It depends how it ends. May could yet look like the heroine who tested Brexit to destruction while avoiding actually Brexitting.
Yes that is a (small I think) possibility. But "no deal is better than a bad deal" will surely rank with "peace in our time" as one of the most myopic and deluded political declarations ever made by a British PM.
She can reframe it as meaning "no Brexit" and say she had to keep her true intentions close to her chest in order to avoid a putsch.
Oh, I guess as long as the SNP still sees independence from the UK as a realistic goal there's hope for severance of UK from the EU.
If it proves impossible to unpick a 40-year alliance, it's hard to see how we're going to unpick a 300-year one.
This is a category error. Brexit isn't secession from a sovereign state but withdrawal from a treaty organisation accompanied by demands to renegotiate the benefits of what we already have on our own terms.
In comparison Scottish independence is tangible and deliverable.
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
Surely on that comparison it was appeasers who were the problem and only Churchill who was willing to take on the Nazis, so Blair, Brown and Cameron and maybe May were the appeasers and the equivalents of Macdonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain and Boris or Mogg is the Churchill willing to stand up to the EU?
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
That is not really a second job just a promotion, if you manage something you often still have to do most of the job you were previously doing as well
No it's a second job. Over a hundred Ministers manage to fit their MP work into a fraction of their weekly work, what makes their weekly work Full Time for non-Ministers?
Parliament doesn't even sit Full Time hours, the statutory leave requirement is 28 days per year (5 weeks and 3 days) with Parliament off for far more than that.
Just put your fingers in your ears and go 'La La La' and you will have completed the look.
Ooops sorry @Philip_Thompson! That was supposed to go into an unrelated WhatsApp conversation :-( Multitasking not my strongpoint!
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
That is not really a second job just a promotion, if you manage something you often still have to do most of the job you were previously doing as well
No it's a second job. Over a hundred Ministers manage to fit their MP work into a fraction of their weekly work, what makes their weekly work Full Time for non-Ministers?
Parliament doesn't even sit Full Time hours, the statutory leave requirement is 28 days per year (5 weeks and 3 days) with Parliament off for far more than that.
Just put your fingers in your ears and go 'La La La' and you will have completed the look.
Ooops sorry @Philip_Thompson! That was supposed to go into an unrelated WhatsApp conversation :-( Multitasking not my strongpoint!
OK. What was the average or median pay in , say, 1968 and 2018 ? What was the MPs pay in 1968 and 2018 ?
An MP is a potential Cabinet Minister or even PM. Do we really want them to be average ?
An Irish TD [ 120 of them in a country of 5 million ] earns € 93599. The Taoiseach earns aroung € 190,000.
Can't find the figures for 1968 but in 1996 the average earnings was £23,000 a year and MPs pay was £34,000 a year.
Today the average earnings has risen to £27,000 a year and MPs pay has risen to £76,000 a year.
So since 1996 Average pay has gone up by 17% and MPs pay has gone up by 123%.
You are having me on. So the average earnings went up 17% in 22 years ? I thought it went up 2.8% in the last year alone.
Ok. How does it compare to inflation ?
I am not sure why you think this is wrong. I know the public sector complain about having lower than inflation payrises or no payrises but in the private sector in the last decade real cuts in pay have been very common if not the norm. In the oil industry since 2014 the average staff pay has dropped by almost 20%. Contractor rates are down by an average of 40%. I am sure there are many other businesses with similar stories if not so extreme.
I would expect that there was a pretty steady rise in pay up until 2008 and that since then average earnings have not really changed that much or have only recovered the drop they suffered.
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
That is not really a second job just a promotion, if you manage something you often still have to do most of the job you were previously doing as well
No it's a second job. Over a hundred Ministers manage to fit their MP work into a fraction of their weekly work, what makes their weekly work Full Time for non-Ministers?
Parliament doesn't even sit Full Time hours, the statutory leave requirement is 28 days per year (5 weeks and 3 days) with Parliament off for far more than that.
Just put your fingers in your ears and go 'La La La' and you will have completed the look.
Ooops sorry @Philip_Thompson! That was supposed to go into an unrelated WhatsApp conversation :-( Multitasking not my strongpoint!
I was a little confused LOL.
Not as confused as I appear to be... gonna blame it on having driven 280 miles back and forth across the south coast today to take my mum out to lunch. Off to bed now before I commit any more faux pas!
OK. What was the average or median pay in , say, 1968 and 2018 ? What was the MPs pay in 1968 and 2018 ?
An MP is a potential Cabinet Minister or even PM. Do we really want them to be average ?
An Irish TD [ 120 of them in a country of 5 million ] earns € 93599. The Taoiseach earns aroung € 190,000.
Can't find the figures for 1968 but in 1996 the average earnings was £23,000 a year and MPs pay was £34,000 a year.
Today the average earnings has risen to £27,000 a year and MPs pay has risen to £76,000 a year.
So since 1996 Average pay has gone up by 17% and MPs pay has gone up by 123%.
You are having me on. So the average earnings went up 17% in 22 years ? I thought it went up 2.8% in the last year alone.
Ok. How does it compare to inflation ?
I am not sure why you think this is wrong. I know the public sector complain about having lower than inflation payrises or no payrises but in the private sector in the last decade real cuts in pay have been very common if not the norm. In the oil industry since 2014 the average staff pay has dropped by almost 20%. Contractor rates are down by an average of 40%. I am sure there are many other businesses with similar stories if not so extreme.
I would expect that there was a pretty steady rise in pay up until 2008 and that since then average earnings have not really changed that much or have only recovered the drop they suffered.
I can't find figures for 1996 but this article gives figures for 1995 and 2000 that dispute your figure.
Average earnings in UK (London in brackets) 1980: £5,720 (£6,604) 1985: £8,890 (£10,660) 1990: £13,760(£17,470) 1995: £17,470 (£22,830) 1999: £20,800(£29,210)
OK. What was the average or median pay in , say, 1968 and 2018 ? What was the MPs pay in 1968 and 2018 ?
An MP is a potential Cabinet Minister or even PM. Do we really want them to be average ?
An Irish TD [ 120 of them in a country of 5 million ] earns € 93599. The Taoiseach earns aroung € 190,000.
Can't find the figures for 1968 but in 1996 the average earnings was £23,000 a year and MPs pay was £34,000 a year.
Today the average earnings has risen to £27,000 a year and MPs pay has risen to £76,000 a year.
So since 1996 Average pay has gone up by 17% and MPs pay has gone up by 123%.
You are having me on. So the average earnings went up 17% in 22 years ? I thought it went up 2.8% in the last year alone.
Ok. How does it compare to inflation ?
I am not sure why you think this is wrong. I know the public sector complain about having lower than inflation payrises or no payrises but in the private sector in the last decade real cuts in pay have been very common if not the norm. In the oil industry since 2014 the average staff pay has dropped by almost 20%. Contractor rates are down by an average of 40%. I am sure there are many other businesses with similar stories if not so extreme.
I would expect that there was a pretty steady rise in pay up until 2008 and that since then average earnings have not really changed that much or have only recovered the drop they suffered.
I can't find figures for 1996 but this article gives figures for 1995 and 2000 that dispute your figure.
Average earnings in UK (London in brackets) 1980: £5,720 (£6,604) 1985: £8,890 (£10,660) 1990: £13,760(£17,470) 1995: £17,470 (£22,830) 1999: £20,800(£29,210)
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
Surely on that comparison it was appeasers who were the problem and only Churchill who was willing to take on the Nazis, so Blair, Brown and Cameron and maybe May were the appeasers and the equivalents of Macdonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain and Boris or Mogg is the Churchill willing to stand up to the EU?
But I don't think many people believe that the EU is a modern incarnation of Nazi Germany. The danger that Cameron & Co ignored was Brexit - they pretended that leaving the EU was a realistic proposition and gave credence to the Farages and Rees Moggs even though they knew (or should have known) that this could ultimately be disastrous for the nation. Just as the leaders of the 1930s gave credence to appeasement,even though in its later stages it was clear that this was not going to prevent war.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
OK. What was the average or median pay in , say, 1968 and 2018 ? What was the MPs pay in 1968 and 2018 ?
An MP is a potential Cabinet Minister or even PM. Do we really want them to be average ?
An Irish TD [ 120 of them in a country of 5 million ] earns € 93599. The Taoiseach earns aroung € 190,000.
Can't find the figures for 1968 but in 1996 the average earnings was £23,000 a year and MPs pay was £34,000 a year.
Today the average earnings has risen to £27,000 a year and MPs pay has risen to £76,000 a year.
So since 1996 Average pay has gone up by 17% and MPs pay has gone up by 123%.
You are having me on. So the average earnings went up 17% in 22 years ? I thought it went up 2.8% in the last year alone.
Ok. How does it compare to inflation ?
I am not sure why you think this is wrong. I know the public sector complain about having lower than inflation payrises or no payrises but in the private sector in the last decade real cuts in pay have been very common if not the norm. In the oil industry since 2014 the average staff pay has dropped by almost 20%. Contractor rates are down by an average of 40%. I am sure there are many other businesses with similar stories if not so extreme.
I would expect that there was a pretty steady rise in pay up until 2008 and that since then average earnings have not really changed that much or have only recovered the drop they suffered.
I can't find figures for 1996 but this article gives figures for 1995 and 2000 that dispute your figure.
Average earnings in UK (London in brackets) 1980: £5,720 (£6,604) 1985: £8,890 (£10,660) 1990: £13,760(£17,470) 1995: £17,470 (£22,830) 1999: £20,800(£29,210)
If being a backbench MP is a full time job how do over a hundred MPs manage to hold second jobs as Ministers?
Good point.
Ministers get assistance with constituency work, at least the senior ones.
The job is essentially a bottomless pit but with good job security for the 75% or so of MPs who don't have marginal seats. If you do, or if you take the job seriously, you can literally fill every waking minute with it - there is always one more constituent you can respond to personally (about 100 per day), one more Bill to peruse, one more question time coming up. If you're safe and lazy I suppose you could delegate the correspondence and pursue other interests. But it's not that easy to get into Parliament, so I don't think many MPs are genuinely lazy.
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
Surely on that comparison it was appeasers who were the problem and only Churchill who was willing to take on the Nazis, so Blair, Brown and Cameron and maybe May were the appeasers and the equivalents of Macdonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain and Boris or Mogg is the Churchill willing to stand up to the EU?
But I don't think many people believe that the EU is a modern incarnation of Nazi Germany. The danger that Cameron & Co ignored was Brexit - they pretended that leaving the EU was a realistic proposition and gave credence to the Farages and Rees Moggs even though they knew (or should have known) that this could ultimately be disastrous for the nation. Just as the leaders of the 1930s gave credence to appeasement,even though in its later stages it was clear that this was not going to prevent war.
I would not be so sure if you read many of the Leaver rants pre referendum the EU was all a German plot to take over Europe in peacetime rather than war and certainly the Greek and Italian populist revolts against the EU have all been based on the Eurozone being set up to benefit the German economy while Southern Europe is hit by austerity, low growth and high unemployment.
It was the British people who voted for Brexit after decades of concessions of more and more powers and laws and regulations to be made in Brussels and a lack of control over our own borders.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
What caused all those odd shortages after we joined the Common Market? Loo paper, bread ... I seem to remember hearing about wine lakes & butter mountains when there was none in the shops.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No wonder arch hypocrite Lord Lawson is so keen to secure permanent residency rights in France.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No suspension/pause of Article 50, remember Farage will don his khaki and grab his rifle in that scenario.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
Have they?
One reason they might care is because of the large numbers of EU citizens in the country. Another might be the effect on financial markets. A third might be common humanity. And a fourth might be that it does not reflect well on them if the EU and Britain are not able to come to some arrangement which then results in there being no food in Britain (even if our government seems, as far as I can tell, to be making a total hash of things).
Personally, I think if it got to this stage we would need to rethink matters here.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
Have they?
One reason they might care is because of the large numbers of EU citizens in the country. Another might be the effect on financial markets. A third might be common humanity. And a fourth might be that it does not reflect well on them if the EU and Britain are not able to come to some arrangement which then results in there being no food in Britain (even if our government seems, as far as I can tell, to be making a total hash of things).
Personally, I think if it got to this stage we would need to rethink matters here.
Bit late for a rethink. I’ve come to the conclusion that were now fucked if we leave and fucked if we remain. There is no good outcome. Just a chance to find the least bad.
Hope I’m wrong. But question the competence of the current govt or opposition. Bad things don’t happen, until they do.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No suspension/pause of Article 50, remember Farage will don his khaki and grab his rifle in that scenario.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
I missed prominent Leavers defending Tommy Robinson. Who on earth has done that?
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
Surely on that comparison it was appeasers who were the problem and only Churchill who was willing to take on the Nazis, so Blair, Brown and Cameron and maybe May were the appeasers and the equivalents of Macdonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain and Boris or Mogg is the Churchill willing to stand up to the EU?
But I don't think many people believe that the EU is a modern incarnation of Nazi Germany. The danger that Cameron & Co ignored was Brexit - they pretended that leaving the EU was a realistic proposition and gave credence to the Farages and Rees Moggs even though they knew (or should have known) that this could ultimately be disastrous for the nation. Just as the leaders of the 1930s gave credence to appeasement,even though in its later stages it was clear that this was not going to prevent war.
I would not be so sure if you read many of the Leaver rants pre referendum the EU was all a German plot to take over Europe in peacetime rather than war and certainly the Greek and Italian populist revolts against the EU have all been based on the Eurozone being set up to benefit the German economy while Southern Europe is hit by austerity, low growth and high unemployment.
It was the British people who voted for Brexit after decades of concessions of more and more powers and laws and regulations to be made in Brussels and a lack of control over our own borders.
The British people voted for an imaginary and unattainable world in which they got all the benefits of EU membership and none of the costs. They were effectively told that 2 plus 2 could be made to equal 5 merely by voting for it to be so.
I'm sure this is right. Many of today's political leaders will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in the 1930s. MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain were popular and respected in their day but with hindsight it became clear that they had ignored the dangers of fascism and pretended that there was an easy way out - appeasement would lead to peace in our time. History has judged them accordingly. The architects of Brexit - Cameron, Johnson and May - will be similarly condemned.
Surely on that comparison it was appeasers who were the problem and only Churchill who was willing to take on the Nazis, so Blair, Brown and Cameron and maybe May were the appeasers and the equivalents of Macdonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain and Boris or Mogg is the Churchill willing to stand up to the EU?
But I don't think many people believe that the EU is a modern incarnation of Nazi Germany. The danger that Cameron & Co ignored was Brexit - they pretended that leaving the EU was a realistic proposition and gave credence to the Farages and Rees Moggs even though they knew (or should have known) that this could ultimately be disastrous for the nation. Just as the leaders of the 1930s gave credence to appeasement,even though in its later stages it was clear that this was not going to prevent war.
I would not be so sure if you read many of the Leaver rants pre referendum the EU was all a German plot to take over Europe in peacetime rather than war and certainly the Greek and Italian populist revolts against the EU have all been based on the Eurozone being set up to benefit the German economy while Southern Europe is hit by austerity, low growth and high unemployment.
It was the British people who voted for Brexit after decades of concessions of more and more powers and laws and regulations to be made in Brussels and a lack of control over our own borders.
The British people voted for an imaginary and unattainable world in which they got all the benefits of EU membership and none of the costs. They were effectively told that 2 plus 2 could be made to equal 5 merely by voting for it to be so.
The British people voted to regain sovereignty and gain greater control over immigration, whatever form Brexit takes those key factors must be delivered
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
Have they?
One reason they might care is because of the large numbers of EU citizens in the country. Another might be the effect on financial markets. A third might be common humanity. And a fourth might be that it does not reflect well on them if the EU and Britain are not able to come to some arrangement which then results in there being no food in Britain (even if our government seems, as far as I can tell, to be making a total hash of things).
Personally, I think if it got to this stage we would need to rethink matters here.
A no deal scenario would hit the EU economy too but we would not run out of food completely, contrary to popular belief there are still plenty of farmers in the UK and we also import plenty of food from outside the EU
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No suspension/pause of Article 50, remember Farage will don his khaki and grab his rifle in that scenario.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
I missed prominent Leavers defending Tommy Robinson. Who on earth has done that?
Gerard Batten (current leader of UKIP) and Lord Pearson to name but two.
The former is a fan of Tommy Robinson and hosted events with him.
Sadly Gerard Batten has yet to reply to me after I asked him why he was focussing on Sajid Javid and not David Gauke, the man responsible for the Justice and Prison system in the country.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
That is just absurd hyperbole, even on WTO terms we are not going to run completely out of food and medicine nor descend into anarchy even if we have to pay tariffs on Brie, Mercedes and Cabinet Sauvignon and in turn EU consumers have to pay tariffs on UK goods
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No suspension/pause of Article 50, remember Farage will don his khaki and grab his rifle in that scenario.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
Some of my Jewish friends feel like that now and have plans to leave if Corbyn becomes PM. They seriously worry about whether there would be a future for them in this country in that eventuality.
If we have a deal, it's scaremongering. Point is, it eliminates any credibility from the we will walk away ploy. We can get a deal that is worse than we have but a lot better than nothing and where we lose our input into the decision making but do what are told. Or we stay as members with a better deal and real influence. This is coming to a head very soon.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
Have they?
One reason they might care is because of the large numbers of EU citizens in the country. Another might be the effect on financial markets. A third might be common humanity. And a fourth might be that it does not reflect well on them if the EU and Britain are not able to come to some arrangement which then results in there being no food in Britain (even if our government seems, as far as I can tell, to be making a total hash of things).
Personally, I think if it got to this stage we would need to rethink matters here.
Bit late for a rethink. I’ve come to the conclusion that were now fucked if we leave and fucked if we remain. There is no good outcome. Just a chance to find the least bad.
Hope I’m wrong. But question the competence of the current govt or opposition. Bad things don’t happen, until they do.
I hope you’re wrong too! Agree with you re our politicians.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No suspension/pause of Article 50, remember Farage will don his khaki and grab his rifle in that scenario.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
Some of my Jewish friends feel like that now and have plans to leave if Corbyn becomes PM. They seriously worry about whether there would be a future for them in this country in that eventuality.
I think one reason why the antisemitism stuff hasn't badly hurt Labour is that nobody thinks for a second that there would be issues for Jewish people living here if Labour get into power. That's not to condone the twats in Momentum and Labour, of course.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No suspension/pause of Article 50, remember Farage will don his khaki and grab his rifle in that scenario.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
I missed prominent Leavers defending Tommy Robinson. Who on earth has done that?
Gerard Batten (current leader of UKIP) and Lord Pearson to name but two.
The former is a fan of Tommy Robinson and hosted events with him.
Sadly Gerard Batten has yet to reply to me after I asked him why he was focussing on Sajid Javid and not David Gauke, the man responsible for the Justice and Prison system in the country.
Thanks. I would not classify anyone from UKIP as “prominent” unless “arses” was the following word. Pretty disgraceful all the same.
@TSE - I think there’s a missing ‘not’ in your last sentence.
I’m not convinced. If the Commons rejects the deal, a second referendum will be almost irresistible for May. The Brexiteers might want a general election, but I don’t think they’ll get one.
OK. Suppose May gets a deal in October. Personally, I think December is more likely and there's a reasonable chance it could go well into 2019 but let's run with a best-case.
The summit is on 18 October. May brings it to parliament later the same month and it's then voted down. Let's also assume that the referendum has to be held by mid-March, to give a little time to clear up the admin afterwards. Let's also suppose a four-week campaign, starting in mid-February.
All of these dates are pushing things to the limit and even then, it only gives three and a half months to pass the legislation, and for the campaign organisations to be created and registered with the Electoral Commission.
That timescale might, just about, be possible. In reality though, it wouldn't work like that. If parliament voted down the deal in October, either May would go back and try to renegotiate and come up with something else at the December summit, or she'd resign, there'd be a Tory leadership election and someone else would go to Brussels. Either way, the time would not be used putting in place the legally-essential framework for a referendum - and without that, it couldn't happen.
You can do this kind of thing much faster if there's a genuine emergency. Greece did their bailout deal referendum on a weeks's notice.
Failing that, she could ask the other member states for an extension. They would grant this, because they generally think Brexit is retarded and would like to see it cancelled.
The practical problem isn't there, it's whether she could get it done before the Conservative Party string her up from a lamppost.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
The level of delusion is incredible. Nobody argues that WTO Brexit at this stage will not cause disruption, but the meltdown of society? Are you really that naive that you believe this stuff?
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
I did notice it was around the time a lot of Russian troll accounts got purged.
But Plato was a real person - was she some sort of deep lying Russian agent ?
I did occasionally wonder if Plato were actually two people but then part of the appeal of the internet is no-one knows you're a Russian troll dog. Did she ever attend a pb meeting?
She was definitely a real person and not a paid troll. AFAIK she attended some pb meet-ups and also was in the early days very open about her whole personal history / circumstances (and was never caught out that they were incorrect in any way). Not exactly the MO of a Russian troll bot.
I don’t think MPs or ministers are paid nearly enough. While it’s true that being an MP does not need to be a full time job, you need to offer a decent package to get good quality people into Westminster who can then go on to be ministers.
I’m sure I read in Johnson’s biography of Churchill that his salary as PM would be the equivalent of about £500k today.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
That is just absurd hyperbole, even on WTO terms we are not going to run completely out of food and medicine nor descend into anarchy even if we have to pay tariffs on Brie, Mercedes and Cabinet Sauvignon and in turn EU consumers have to pay tariffs on UK goods
If food starts running out - or even if there are shortages, queues, delays at Dover etc - I would not be as sanguine as you about the prospect of there being no civil unrest. Look how quickly we ended up with riots in London a few years back.
The government really does need to face down the loons who are preventing a transition deal. Whether you’re for or against Brexit, it is undeniable that disentangling a 40-year plus relationship will take time - and we need that time.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No suspension/pause of Article 50, remember Farage will don his khaki and grab his rifle in that scenario.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
I missed prominent Leavers defending Tommy Robinson. Who on earth has done that?
Gerard Batten (current leader of UKIP) and Lord Pearson to name but two.
The former is a fan of Tommy Robinson and hosted events with him.
Sadly Gerard Batten has yet to reply to me after I asked him why he was focussing on Sajid Javid and not David Gauke, the man responsible for the Justice and Prison system in the country.
Thanks. I would not classify anyone from UKIP as “prominent” unless “arses” was the following word. Pretty disgraceful all the same.
I ran into some supporters of Tommy Robinson yesterday in Leeds, after the end of the cricket I went to Leeds City Centre and his supporters had been protesting outside Leeds Court.
With the deft political leadership of May, Boris, Corbyn and McDonald at home and the statesmanship of Juncker, Trump and Putin abroad, what can possibly go wrong? We’ve never had it so good.
I don’t think MPs or ministers are paid nearly enough. While it’s true that being an MP does not need to be a full time job, you need to offer a decent package to get good quality people into Westminster who can then go on to be ministers.
I’m sure I read in Johnson’s biography of Churchill that his salary as PM would be the equivalent of about £500k today.
Do you think if we paid them more we'd have a different set of politicians? I don't.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
The level of delusion is incredible. Nobody argues that WTO Brexit at this stage will not cause disruption, but the meltdown of society? Are you really that naive that you believe this stuff?
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
Project Fear has morphed into Project Psychosis.
I’m not normally accused of being naive. I’m merely commenting on the ST article based on a government analysis which suggests that it would take no more than 2 weeks for such a stage to be reached. If it is I wonder what the consequences are likely to be.
Personally, I’d have thought that we’d see concerns being expressed long before that date.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
The level of delusion is incredible. Nobody argues that WTO Brexit at this stage will not cause disruption, but the meltdown of society? Are you really that naive that you believe this stuff?
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
Project Fear has morphed into Project Psychosis.
I’m not normally accused of being naive. I’m merely commenting on the ST article based on a government analysis which suggests that it would take no more than 2 weeks for such a stage to be reached. If it is I wonder what the consequences are likely to be.
Personally, I’d have thought that we’d see concerns being expressed long before that date.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
What caused all those odd shortages after we joined the Common Market? Loo paper, bread ... I seem to remember hearing about wine lakes & butter mountains when there was none in the shops.
Most of these shortages were caused by rumours, followed by panic buying which cleared out the shops. I remember the shortage of table salt. The demand and supply of table salt is very stable but, following a rumour, salt sold out in the shops and none was available. ICI was the main supplier and refused to put on extra shifts to dig more out and refine it as it would lead to surplus stock in a few weeks time. It gradually sorted itself out.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
The level of delusion is incredible. Nobody argues that WTO Brexit at this stage will not cause disruption, but the meltdown of society? Are you really that naive that you believe this stuff?
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
Project Fear has morphed into Project Psychosis.
I am currently reading Michael Lewis's book "The Undoing Project" which I strongly recommend.
I had not understand how the human mind perceives utility and value - and how important regret is to the process of rationalising decision making and forecasting. It is clear that the Brexit result and ongoing process cannot be viewed objectively by many of us because of the interplay of our identity, financial concerns and view of history. For me the lesson of the book (so far) is that simple post-referendum rationalisation of what happened or is happening, who to blame for what elements we don't like and forecasting of future state is effectively pointless. We all have insufficient information, there is way too much uncertainty and we all need to realise that scaring each other with this is actually beneath all of us. Keep calm and carry on, people.
The level of delusion is incredible. Nobody argues that WTO Brexit at this stage will not cause disruption, but the meltdown of society? Are you really that naive that you believe this stuff?
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
Project Fear has morphed into Project Psychosis.
I think it's expectation management. If we withdraw and zombies don't stalk the streets as we cower under the wreckage of our homes, the idea is that we'll feel Mrs May has really done quite well.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
The level of delusion is incredible. Nobody argues that WTO Brexit at this stage will not cause disruption, but the meltdown of society? Are you really that naive that you believe this stuff?
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
Project Fear has morphed into Project Psychosis.
I am currently reading Michael Lewis's book "The Undoing Project" which I strongly recommend.
I had not understand how the human mind perceives utility and value - and how important regret is to the process of rationalising decision making and forecasting. It is clear that the Brexit result and ongoing process cannot be viewed objectively by many of us because of the interplay of our identity, financial concerns and view of history. For me the lesson of the book (so far) is that simple post-referendum rationalisation of what happened or is happening, who to blame for what elements we don't like and forecasting of future state is effectively pointless. We all have insufficient information, there is way too much uncertainty and we all need to realise that scaring each other with this is actually beneath all of us. Keep calm and carry on, people.
We have plenty of information about the calibre of our political leaders. It’s not hugely encouraging.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
No suspension/pause of Article 50, remember Farage will don his khaki and grab his rifle in that scenario.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
Some of my Jewish friends feel like that now and have plans to leave if Corbyn becomes PM. They seriously worry about whether there would be a future for them in this country in that eventuality.
I think one reason why the antisemitism stuff hasn't badly hurt Labour is that nobody thinks for a second that there would be issues for Jewish people living here if Labour get into power. That's not to condone the twats in Momentum and Labour, of course.
Well, some Jewish people do worry that there might be issues for them. One mentioned whether the government would continue to fund security for Jewish places of worship and schools (one Momentum person had questioned whether government money should be spent on this) or whether they’d be forbidden from having Israeli citizenship. Maybe they are wrong to worry but the worry is there. It comes from the tone adopted by many of Corbyn’s supporters. They don’t feel welcome. And they know that words can lead to worse. Not necessarily by the government but by some of its supporters.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
The level of delusion is incredible. Nobody argues that WTO Brexit at this stage will not cause disruption, but the meltdown of society? Are you really that naive that you believe this stuff?
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
Project Fear has morphed into Project Psychosis.
I am currently reading Michael Lewis's book "The Undoing Project" which I strongly recommend.
I had not understand how the human mind perceives utility and value - and how important regret is to the process of rationalising decision making and forecasting. It is clear that the Brexit result and ongoing process cannot be viewed objectively by many of us because of the interplay of our identity, financial concerns and view of history. For me the lesson of the book (so far) is that simple post-referendum rationalisation of what happened or is happening, who to blame for what elements we don't like and forecasting of future state is effectively pointless. We all have insufficient information, there is way too much uncertainty and we all need to realise that scaring each other with this is actually beneath all of us. Keep calm and carry on, people.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
That is just absurd hyperbole, even on WTO terms we are not going to run completely out of food and medicine nor descend into anarchy even if we have to pay tariffs on Brie, Mercedes and Cabinet Sauvignon and in turn EU consumers have to pay tariffs on UK goods
If food starts running out - or even if there are shortages, queues, delays at Dover etc - I would not be as sanguine as you about the prospect of there being no civil unrest. Look how quickly we ended up with riots in London a few years back.
The government really does need to face down the loons who are preventing a transition deal. Whether you’re for or against Brexit, it is undeniable that disentangling a 40-year plus relationship will take time - and we need that time.
Why should food run out? Plus of course it was the British people themselves who voted to Leave the EU against the advice of the PM and government of the day and British voters are notoriously stubborn, if the EU play hardball so will they
I don’t think MPs or ministers are paid nearly enough. While it’s true that being an MP does not need to be a full time job, you need to offer a decent package to get good quality people into Westminster who can then go on to be ministers.
I’m sure I read in Johnson’s biography of Churchill that his salary as PM would be the equivalent of about £500k today.
It's difficult to put a single figure on it - what do you use as comparison: prices, earnings, earnings of top executives?
However, Churchill was paid £10k pa as PM (which was the salary set in 1937 - double that of most other cabinet ministers, or of the LotO). I don't think that Johnson's estimate is unreasonable.
So given the likelihood of no deal, at least according to this forum, at what point do I start stocking up on loo paper, non-perishable foods etc and turning the garden over to vegetable growing?
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
Why do you think the EU care? They’ve tolerated worse elsewhere in the EU.
The EU wants to ensure that the UK is seen to suffer through its decision to leave. Even more so given recent developments in Italy. They are not going to save us from the consequences of our own stupidity.
To the extent of having starving Britons or people dying from lack of medecines? Really?
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
The level of delusion is incredible. Nobody argues that WTO Brexit at this stage will not cause disruption, but the meltdown of society? Are you really that naive that you believe this stuff?
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
Project Fear has morphed into Project Psychosis.
I’m not normally accused of being naive. I’m merely commenting on the ST article based on a government analysis which suggests that it would take no more than 2 weeks for such a stage to be reached. If it is I wonder what the consequences are likely to be.
Personally, I’d have thought that we’d see concerns being expressed long before that date.
Like the concerns being expressed now?
Yes - but accompanied by some real effects: in the financial markets, say, or some prominent company closing a plant or supermarkets saying something. Maybe we’re not seeing the full picture but we seem to be sleep-walking towards, well God knows what, and politicians are still fannying around with customs ideas which have already been rejected.
Comments
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom
Before the vote, Remainers said this is a BAD idea and BAD things will happen.
If, as a result of your vote, BAD things happen, you can't plead innocence.
If Brexit fails it will because of the incompetence of the Tories... And they will deserve everything they have coming to them when Corbyn turfs them out.
OK. What was the average or median pay in , say, 1968 and 2018 ? What was the MPs pay in 1968 and 2018 ?
An MP is a potential Cabinet Minister or even PM. Do we really want them to be average ?
An Irish TD [ 120 of them in a country of 5 million ] earns € 93599. The Taoiseach earns aroung € 190,000.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U54867/2018/06/02/advanced
They got it going again but they'll do well to nurse it back to London.
Whenever I want a good laugh I go back and read the abuse Alastair received when he wrote a pre referendum thread that doing a deal within 2-3 years was unlikely given how long it took to sort out other deals.
We need a de-Leaverifaction process like West Germany did with the Nazis post WWII the poison needs to be drained lest it come back and take the whole body.
Parliament doesn't even sit Full Time hours, the statutory leave requirement is 28 days per year (5 weeks and 3 days) with Parliament off for far more than that.
Can you point me at a summary of how Germany has broken legally binding treaties over 'dieselgate' (as opposed to German manufacturers fraudulently manipulating emissions results)? It's a genuine question - I suspect you will have some evidence, I am just not up to speed on the topic. Thanks.
As for Corbyn he will have to manage the impossible combination in the event of a bad Brexit of working class Labour Leave voters and urban graduate Labour Remain voters.
Plus of course the Tories would swiftly recover with Corbyn and McDonnell at the helm of the economy
If it proves impossible to unpick a 40-year alliance, it's hard to see how we're going to unpick a 300-year one.
It would take a decade (at least) and cost a fortune, but we could do it.
That's not Brexit though. Brexit, as voted for by the Great British Public, is quick, simple and painless. Those are the contradictions which are suffocating it.
Today the average earnings has risen to £27,000 a year and MPs pay has risen to £76,000 a year.
So since 1996 Average pay has gone up by 17% and MPs pay has gone up by 123%.
' Meeting minutes, correspondence and conversation records that SPIEGEL ONLINE and the Swedish daily Svenska Dagbladet have obtained now show that the European Commission and member states knew, since 2010 at the latest, that the extremely harmful emissions from diesel cars were strikingly higher than legal levels.
But apparently none of the officials wanted the automakers to tell them why this was the case. According to EU officials, pressure from countries with a strong auto industry, most notably Germany, significantly reduced interest in an investigation. Instead of doing something about the environmental policy violation, the Commission and the member states passed the buck to each other. This undignified back-and-forth even continued after the VW scandal about manipulated diesel cars in the United States was exposed in September 2015. '
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/volkswagen-how-officials-ignored-years-of-emissions-evidence-a-1108325.html
here's something similar from the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/20/european-commission-warned-car-maker-suspected-cheating-five-years-vw-scandal
Laws, treaties and the like get ignored when it suits governmental organisations to do so.
Ministers still do their constituency work too but a lot of that they can do at weekends in the constituency and like backbenchers they have staff to help on it in the week
Ok. How does it compare to inflation ?
In comparison Scottish independence is tangible and deliverable.
Yes 45%
I would expect that there was a pretty steady rise in pay up until 2008 and that since then average earnings have not really changed that much or have only recovered the drop they suffered.
Average earnings in UK (London in brackets)
1980: £5,720 (£6,604)
1985: £8,890 (£10,660)
1990: £13,760(£17,470)
1995: £17,470 (£22,830)
1999: £20,800(£29,210)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/593477.stm
Looking back the warnings about a housing bust to come look rather bemusing.
Seriously, if this becomes real doesn’t any responsible government have to ask for a suspension of Article 50 or a pause? Civil unrest is certainly not in our interest and I can’t imagine the EU would be best pleased either.
The job is essentially a bottomless pit but with good job security for the 75% or so of MPs who don't have marginal seats. If you do, or if you take the job seriously, you can literally fill every waking minute with it - there is always one more constituent you can respond to personally (about 100 per day), one more Bill to peruse, one more question time coming up. If you're safe and lazy I suppose you could delegate the correspondence and pursue other interests. But it's not that easy to get into Parliament, so I don't think many MPs are genuinely lazy.
http://bankofengland.education/inflationcalculator/
It was the British people who voted for Brexit after decades of concessions of more and more powers and laws and regulations to be made in Brussels and a lack of control over our own borders.
I've already made plans to move to Canada if we get no deal.
Amusingly I'm getting ads asking me to move to France.
With a lot of prominent Leavers happy to use anti-Semitic tropes and/or defend Tommy Robinson as a paragon of free speech and justice for the first time in my life I feel like an outsider in my own country.
We all know if we get no deal they'll blame the rootless cosmopolitan and the Muslim rather than themselves for selling the public a pup.
One reason they might care is because of the large numbers of EU citizens in the country. Another might be the effect on financial markets. A third might be common humanity. And a fourth might be that it does not reflect well on them if the EU and Britain are not able to come to some arrangement which then results in there being no food in Britain (even if our government seems, as far as I can tell, to be making a total hash of things).
Personally, I think if it got to this stage we would need to rethink matters here.
Hope I’m wrong. But question the competence of the current govt or opposition. Bad things don’t happen, until they do.
Wanting to make clear that non-membership is less favourable than membership is one thing. Having a country which hosts the main financial centre in Europe descend into anarchy is quite another.
The former is a fan of Tommy Robinson and hosted events with him.
https://twitter.com/GerardBattenMEP/status/1000722509518528512
https://twitter.com/GerardBattenMEP/status/1001086094971195392
Sadly Gerard Batten has yet to reply to me after I asked him why he was focussing on Sajid Javid and not David Gauke, the man responsible for the Justice and Prison system in the country.
https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1002968937955553281
the embedded tweet is this:
https://twitter.com/MarkJLittlewood/status/1002968030593343488
Failing that, she could ask the other member states for an extension. They would grant this, because they generally think Brexit is retarded and would like to see it cancelled.
The practical problem isn't there, it's whether she could get it done before the Conservative Party string her up from a lamppost.
Virtually every other country in the World manages its own borders, sets its own tariffs and manages imports and customs arrangements, most of it under WTO rules, including agricultural goods. Yet if the UK try to do it, the end of days will result.
Project Fear has morphed into Project Psychosis.
I’m sure I read in Johnson’s biography of Churchill that his salary as PM would be the equivalent of about £500k today.
The government really does need to face down the loons who are preventing a transition deal. Whether you’re for or against Brexit, it is undeniable that disentangling a 40-year plus relationship will take time - and we need that time.
Charming people.
Personally, I’d have thought that we’d see concerns being expressed long before that date.
I had not understand how the human mind perceives utility and value - and how important regret is to the process of rationalising decision making and forecasting. It is clear that the Brexit result and ongoing process cannot be viewed objectively by many of us because of the interplay of our identity, financial concerns and view of history. For me the lesson of the book (so far) is that simple post-referendum rationalisation of what happened or is happening, who to blame for what elements we don't like and forecasting of future state is effectively pointless. We all have insufficient information, there is way too much uncertainty and we all need to realise that scaring each other with this is actually beneath all of us. Keep calm and carry on, people.
Which is also a point about Plato.
She could hold a real-time (if deranged) argument in up-to-date colloquial British-English.
The surest sign of not-a-bot.
Which is probably even more worrying.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Undoing-Project-Friendship-Changed-World/dp/0141983043/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527980657&sr=8-1&keywords=the+undoing+project
However, Churchill was paid £10k pa as PM (which was the salary set in 1937 - double that of most other cabinet ministers, or of the LotO). I don't think that Johnson's estimate is unreasonable.
It’s not hugely encouraging.
Anyway night all.