If Corbyn himself really wanted to Remain I’m sure he’d find a way to come out for this, regardless of what Labour voters want. But I don’t think he does. So they’re whistling in the wind these MPs.
Fantastic Derby btw!
This is the core truth of it. People like Corbyn and Mcdonell are hugely in favour of Brexit. They never wanted us to join in the first place. A capitalist club that inhibits their capacity to control the commanding heights of the economy.
Although Brexit is very definitely a problem, it mostly isn't the EU's problem (unlike Italy which really is s a big threat to the EU). The EU will happily accept the UK as a "vassal". On the assumption that Leave voters also prefer to be a "vassal" of the EU than to go back on their vote, Brexit will go ahead.
Leave voters will only get a chance to go back on their vote if Leave members of the cabinet decide they are more afraid of the political consequences for them of leading the country to vassal status, than they are of the political consequences of a second referendum.
If we get to that point, it will be a completely new vote, and "we said Leave and we meant it" won't gain much traction when it means accepting a concrete deal.
Brexit will only be cancelled if Leave voters urgently change their minds. So far they haven't. The implication is that they prefer to be "vassals" of the EU than to be members of it. They probably think they were vassals already and with Brexit they make a point. It should become clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that we will end up with.a arrangement that is significantly worse than what we had while losing a big say over what happens to us. But, hey.
The moment when the final text of the withdrawal agreement is revealed will be a big political event that is quite likely to lead to a backlash. The best way for the government to make the political weather would be simultaneously to announce that there will be a referendum. I think they can afford to take a punt on which way public opinion will go, and May will try to rise above the fray.
If there's a backlash among Leave voters over the settlement, then I agree, we really could see a reversal. But surely that backlash should have started by now? Brexit very obviously isn't going smoothly. I am not hearing Leave voices saying, Brexit really isn't smart, is it?
There isn't a fray Mrs May is capable of rising above. And certainly not this one.
At the moment there's a taboo about reversal that can only be broken when one of the people with a hand on the steering wheel says that there's a problem, or when the agreement is there in black and white being dissected by the press. It's amazing how many people still think the negotiations are all posturing.
I agree with this. Brexit really is dumb. Sadly it's still dumb even if you don't like the EU much and would prefer not to have anything to do with it.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Typical many faced Tory, fill their own pockets , look after themselves and p**s on the public, foolish sheeple who vote them in. How they must laugh at the plebs from their mansions and country houses.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Its bitterness caused by things not falling apart as they predicted and/or wanted on a range of issues from the economy not being in recession to strawberries filling the shelves in Asda.
Similar things happen to the fanatics of every defeated political cause.
The collapse of Brexit would be the final admission that if voting changed anything they'd abolish it and the greatest national humiliation in British history.
... unless of course Brexit was voted down by the British people once they'd seen the final offer.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Typical many faced Tory, fill their own pockets , look after themselves and p**s on the public, foolish sheeple who vote them in. How they must laugh at the plebs from their mansions and country houses.
Dear me Malcy you forgot to mention about setting their kids up in top jobs
I agree with this. Brexit really is dumb. Sadly it's still dumb even if you don't like the EU much and would prefer not to have anything to do with it.
It would just get harder and harder to leave as it became more integrated. So if you prefer not to have anything to do with it, leaving now is the best course of action.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Typical many faced Tory, fill their own pockets , look after themselves and p**s on the public, foolish sheeple who vote them in. How they must laugh at the plebs from their mansions and country houses.
Dear me Malcy you forgot to mention about setting their kids up in top jobs
For sure , I am slipping. They will soon be wanting to put poor kids up chimneys again.
Although Brexit is very definitely a problem, it mostly isn't the EU's problem (unlike Italy which really is s a big threat to the EU). The EU will happily accept the UK as a "vassal". On the assumption that Leave voters also prefer to be a "vassal" of the EU than to go back on their vote, Brexit will go ahead.
Leave voters will only get a chance to go back on their vote if Leave members of the cabinet decide they are more afraid of the political consequences for them of leading the country to vassal status, than they are of the political consequences of a second referendum.
If we get to that point, it will be a completely new vote, and "we said Leave and we meant it" won't gain much traction when it means accepting a concrete deal.
Brexit will only be cancelled if Leave voters urgently change their minds. So far they haven't. The implication is that they prefer to be "vassals" of the EU than to be members of it. They probably think they were vassals already and with Brexit they make a point. It should become clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that we will end up with.a arrangement that is significantly worse than what we had while losing a big say over what happens to us. But, hey.
You can tell Leavers think it’s a shitshow because they’ve all started talking about house prices instead. As if that’s going to restore the reputation of politicians that wallowed in xenophobic lies to cut Britain off from the rest of Europe with younger voters.
Are you back to 'xenophobic lies' ranting after making yourself look stupid re strawberries ?
Still if you want xenophobic lies how about this one from a London Remainer MP:
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed. '
Although Brexit is very definitely a problem, it mostly isn't the EU's problem (unlike Italy which really is s a big threat to the EU). The EU will happily accept the UK as a "vassal". On the assumption that Leave voters also prefer to be a "vassal" of the EU than to go back on their vote, Brexit will go ahead.
Leave voters will only get a chance to go back on their vote if Leave members of the cabinet decide they are more afraid of the political consequences for them of leading the country to vassal status, than they are of the political consequences of a second referendum.
If we get to that point, it will be a completely new vote, and "we said Leave and we meant it" won't gain much traction when it means accepting a concrete deal.
Brexit will only be cancelled if Leave voters urgently change their minds. So far they haven't. The implication is that they prefer to be "vassals" of the EU than to be members of it. They probably think they were vassals already and with Brexit they make a point. It should become clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that we will end up with.a arrangement that is significantly worse than what we had while losing a big say over what happens to us. But, hey.
The moment when the final text of the withdrawal agreement is revealed will be a big political event that is quite likely to lead to a backlash. The best way for the government to make the political weather would be simultaneously to announce that there will be a referendum. I think they can afford to take a punt on which way public opinion will go, and May will try to rise above the fray.
If there's a backlash among Leave voters over the settlement, then I agree, we really could see a reversal. But surely that backlash should have started by now? Brexit very obviously isn't going smoothly. I am not hearing Leave voices saying, Brexit really isn't smart, is it?
There isn't a fray Mrs May is capable of rising above. And certainly not this one.
At the moment there's a taboo about reversal that can only be broken when one of the people with a hand on the steering wheel says that there's a problem, or when the agreement is there in black and white being dissected by the press. It's amazing how many people still think the negotiations are all posturing.
I remember when Charles used to intone he knew a man in the ministry who assured him it was all going exceedingly well.
If Corbyn himself really wanted to Remain I’m sure he’d find a way to come out for this, regardless of what Labour voters want. But I don’t think he does. So they’re whistling in the wind these MPs.
Fantastic Derby btw!
This is the core truth of it. People like Corbyn and Mcdonell are hugely in favour of Brexit. They never wanted us to join in the first place. A capitalist club that inhibits their capacity to control the commanding heights of the economy.
Think this is close to the truth but not quite correct. Neither are devoted to Brexit like the right of the Tory Party is - or Corbyn's mentor Tony Benn. They just don't particularly see the EU issue as important economically or socially - as even many leavers do, and admit leaving will hit the economy, but claim the hit will be wiped out elsewhere by whatever grand Brexit plan they favour. Corbyn differs in that his view of the world is primarily Marxist but it's mutated into something more woolly - what you might call Declarative Socialism - that any problem can be solved by a virtuous socialist government committed to 'doing the right thing'. As such, technical arguments about how various types of Brexit will hit the economy, or tilt political possibilities to the right (the reason most of his MPs in their heart of hearts, even the ones nominally supporting him, think Brexit is a terrible idea) don't interest him. But yeah, as far as he takes an interest in the EU it is to worry that as a club it has an interest in protecting a status quo he wants to break. But it's lack of interest and understanding in the details and potential consequences that make him indifferent, and therefore happy to support Brexit as a political necessity - even as many of his MPs try to warn him that in its current form it will actually make the party's more practical left-wing policies harder to implement - like a spending splurge predicated on a corporation tax hike, much more difficult to implement.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Typical many faced Tory, fill their own pockets , look after themselves and p**s on the public, foolish sheeple who vote them in. How they must laugh at the plebs from their mansions and country houses.
Dear me Malcy you forgot to mention about setting their kids up in top jobs
For sure , I am slipping. They will soon be wanting to put poor kids up chimneys again.
I agree with this. Brexit really is dumb. Sadly it's still dumb even if you don't like the EU much and would prefer not to have anything to do with it.
It would just get harder and harder to leave as it became more integrated. So if you prefer not to have anything to do with it, leaving now is the best course of action.
Maybe and definitely for some people, I guess. It seems like an after the fact justification though. The question, "Should we leave the EU?" is a bit like "should I give up work?" A lot of people hate work and might say, Yes. But what are the alternatives? If you need the money, the question wasn't a helpful one. Your explanation only really kicks in if you have already decided to leave but are considering the timing. More like retirement, I suppose.
I agree with this. Brexit really is dumb. Sadly it's still dumb even if you don't like the EU much and would prefer not to have anything to do with it.
It would just get harder and harder to leave as it became more integrated. So if you prefer not to have anything to do with it, leaving now is the best course of action.
Maybe and definitely for some people, I guess. It seems like an after the fact justification though. The question, "Should we leave the EU?" is a bit like "should I give up work?" A lot of people hate work and might say, Yes. But what are the alternatives? If you need the money, the question wasn't a helpful one. Your explanation only really kicks in if you have already decided to leave but are considering the timing. More like retirement, I suppose.
You make it sound like the world is going to end when the UK leaves. A closer analogy might be you are moving to a different job where the pay may be a tiny bit worse but you don't have to deal with your insufferable old boss.
Fine in theory when you are a city state like Singapore and mainly built on financial services, less so when you still have a significant manufacturing and farming industry whose products other countries like the USA are imposing tariffs on.
Unilateral free trade would work for London not the rest of the country and it was the latter which voted for Brexit while London was happy with free movement of people as well as services and goods
No its fine for anyone that's ever tried it. New Zealand unilaterally abolished its agriculture tariffs and slashed its subsidies and far from killing its agriculture industry it since boomed.
Name any nation that has failed after slashing its protectionism. Protectionism simply doesn't work.
The biggest reason why Trump etc have imposed tariffs is cheap imports of manufactured goods, particularly from Asia and Mexico for example, undermining domestic producers. New Zealand has a strong exporting industry for New Zealand lamb while being too small a country to target for many agricultural exporters elsewhere.
No cheap imports have led to low inflation and helped us be the wealthiest we've ever been. People who blame China etc are no better than other ignoramuses who blame things on the "others" who are to be blamed for all their ills. It doesn't make them right.
Cheap imports are fine if you work in services industries and just want cheap products to buy, less fine if you worked in previously relatively well paid manufacturing jobs which have been lost as a result of cheap imports from China.
You may be right that in future if we are to have a manufacturing industry it will have to be based on a small number of very highly skilled jobs and in areas in which we still do well like aerospace or pharmaceuticals. However for those who worked in mass manufacturing areas in the North and Midlands and South Wales and the rustbelt in the US there are clearly many who are sympathetic to tariffs and protectionism
Although Brexit is very definitely a problem, it mostly isn't the EU's problem (unlike Italy which really is s a big threat to the EU). The EU will happily accept the UK as a "vassal". On the assumption that Leave voters also prefer to be a "vassal" of the EU than to go back on their vote, Brexit will go ahead.
Leave voters will only get a chance to go back on their vote if Leave members of the cabinet decide they are more afraid of the political consequences for them of leading the country to vassal status, than they are of the political consequences of a second referendum.
If we get to that point, it will be a completely new vote, and "we said Leave and we meant it" won't gain much traction when it means accepting a concrete deal.
Brexit will only be cancelled if Leave voters urgently change their minds. So far they haven't. The implication is that they prefer to be "vassals" of the EU than to be members of it. They probably think they were vassals already and with Brexit they make a point. It should become clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that we will end up with.a arrangement that is significantly worse than what we had while losing a big say over what happens to us. But, hey.
You can tell Leavers think it’s a shitshow because they’ve all started talking about house prices instead. As if that’s going to restore the reputation of politicians that wallowed in xenophobic lies to cut Britain off from the rest of Europe with younger voters.
Are you back to 'xenophobic lies' ranting after making yourself look stupid re strawberries ?
Still if you want xenophobic lies how about this one from a London Remainer MP:
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed. '
Have you changed your user pic for today's topic or was it always a class 37 (and where's it passing through?)
I've had that for a bit now. It's in the bay platform 6 at Woking in between measurement train duties.
Cheers. That would explain why I didn't recognise where it was!
Is there any significance to the picture?
Not really, I just know how popular trains are on here!
And what a great choice. I love the Class 37s - if I was to buy a diesel locomotive (*), it would either be a class 37 or a 58. Both great locos.
If I was to have a steam loco, I'd buy the hulk of 9F 92219 or 92245 (heck, why not both?) , restore it as a Franco-Crosti and paint it in North Staffs Madder Lake just to give the rivet counters heart attacks ...
(*) Which I won't. Not only would Mrs J frown, but my neighbours wouldn't like it - especially as it would take over not only my garden, but the next two along as well!
(There was a gent in Nottinghamshire who had an ex-Barry steam locomotive in his front garden...)
And now everyone who is not a utter railway nut has just disappeared ...
For me it would have to be the Class 55 Deltics. They used to run past the playing fields of my school on the East Coast Line and you could always tell when it was a Deltic coming by the sound long before you saw it.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
It’s a touch hypocritical to enjoy the benefits of living in the EU whilst campaigning to deny them to the folks back home.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
It’s a touch hypocritical to enjoy the benefits of living in the EU whilst campaigning to deny them to the folks back home.
So a retiree that has worked all her life should not support state pensions being contribution based? After all she would be enjoying the benefit of a pension while supporting denying them to others. If you want a left wing example, you could have someone on a low income supporting higher taxes on the rich.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
It’s a touch hypocritical to enjoy the benefits of living in the EU whilst campaigning to deny them to the folks back home.
What benefit is Lawson getting that others in this country cannot also experience?
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
It’s a touch hypocritical to enjoy the benefits of living in the EU whilst campaigning to deny them to the folks back home.
How is he having extra rights ?
He'll be treated in the same way as other British citizens who want to reside in France.
If the French government are happy to have him or other people then they will be allowed to live there, if not then its au revoir to Lawson and any others.
I agree with this. Brexit really is dumb. Sadly it's still dumb even if you don't like the EU much and would prefer not to have anything to do with it.
It would just get harder and harder to leave as it became more integrated. So if you prefer not to have anything to do with it, leaving now is the best course of action.
Maybe and definitely for some people, I guess. It seems like an after the fact justification though. The question, "Should we leave the EU?" is a bit like "should I give up work?" A lot of people hate work and might say, Yes. But what are the alternatives? If you need the money, the question wasn't a helpful one. Your explanation only really kicks in if you have already decided to leave but are considering the timing. More like retirement, I suppose.
You make it sound like the world is going to end when the UK leaves. A closer analogy might be you are moving to a different job where the pay may be a tiny bit worse but you don't have to deal with your insufferable old boss.
I didn't say anything about the world ending. The analogy creaks a bit, but the point is there is no other job or boss. That was a false impression from the Leave.side. There is this boss and this job or there is no boss and no job. If the first is intolerable, you are stuck. Hence the mess.
Although Brexit is very definitely a problem, it mostly isn't the EU's problem (unlike Italy which really is s a big threat to the EU). The EU will happily accept the UK as a "vassal". On the assumption that Leave voters also prefer to be a "vassal" of the EU than to go back on their vote, Brexit will go ahead.
Leave voters will only get a chance to go back on their vote if Leave members of the cabinet decide they are more afraid of the political consequences for them of leading the country to vassal status, than they are of the political consequences of a second referendum.
If we get to that point, it will be a completely new vote, and "we said Leave and we meant it" won't gain much traction when it means accepting a concrete deal.
Brexit will only be cancelled if Leave voters urgently change their minds. So far they haven't. The implication is that they prefer to be "vassals" of the EU than to be members of it. They probably think they were vassals already and with Brexit they make a point. It should become clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that we will end up with.a arrangement that is significantly worse than what we had while losing a big say over what happens to us. But, hey.
You can tell Leavers think it’s a shitshow because they’ve all started talking about house prices instead. As if that’s going to restore the reputation of politicians that wallowed in xenophobic lies to cut Britain off from the rest of Europe with younger voters.
Are you back to 'xenophobic lies' ranting after making yourself look stupid re strawberries ?
Still if you want xenophobic lies how about this one from a London Remainer MP:
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed. '
Although Brexit is very definitely a problem, it mostly isn't the EU's problem (unlike Italy which really is s a big threat to the EU). The EU will happily accept the UK as a "vassal". On the assumption that Leave voters also prefer to be a "vassal" of the EU than to go back on their vote, Brexit will go ahead.
Leave voters will only get a chance toal consequences of a second referendum.
If we get to that point, it will be a completely new vote, and "we said Leave and we meant it" won't gain much traction when it means accepting a concrete deal.
Brexit will only be cancelled if Leave voters urgently change their minds. So far they haven't. The implication is that they prefer to be "vassals" of the EU than to be members of it. They probably think they were vassals already and with Brexit they make a point. It should become clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that we will end up with.a arrangement that is significantly worse than what we had while losing a big say over what happens to us. But, hey.
The moment when the final text of the withdrawal agreement is revealed will be a big political event that is quite likely to lead to a backlash. The best way for the government to make the political weather would be simultaneously to announce that there will be a referendum. I think they can afford to take a punt on which way public opinion will go, and May will try to rise above the fray.
If there's a backlash among Leave voters over the settlement, then I agree, we really could see a reversal. But surely that backlash should have started by now? Brexit very obviously isn't going smoothly. I am not hearing Leave voices saying, Brexit really isn't smart, is it?
There isn't a fray Mrs May is capable of rising above. And certainly not this one.
At the moment there's a taboo about reversal that can only be broken when one of the people with a hand on the steering wheel says that there's a problem, or when the agreement is there in black and white being dissected by the press. It's amazing how many people still think the negotiations are all posturing.
I remember when Charles used to intone he knew a man in the ministry who assured him it was all going exceedingly well.
A false memory - or not me.
The only direct feedback of that nature was the French reaction to Cameron’s renegotiation.
I have said that I expect (or hope) there are serious discussions going on behind the scenes and a lot of the noise is for show / to sell papers.
I agree - that’s an awful tweet. She’s proved herself to be a deeply unpleasant human being
Unlike many people, Lord Lawson is unlikely to be in a position where he has to worry about irritating paperwork related issues and any monetary consequences they may have.
Although Brexit is very definitely a problem, it mostly isn't the EU's problem (unlike Italy which really is s a big threat to the EU). The EU will happily accept the UK as a "vassal". On the assumption that Leave voters also prefer to be a "vassal" of the EU than to go back on their vote, Brexit will go ahead.
Leave voters will only get a chance to go back on their vote if Leave members of the cabinet decide they are more afraid of the political consequences for them of leading the country to vassal status, than they are of the political consequences of a second referendum.
If we get to that point, it will be a completely new vote, and "we said Leave and we meant it" won't gain much traction when it means accepting a concrete deal.
Brexit will only be cancelled if Leave voters urgently change their minds. So far they haven't. The implication is that they prefer to be "vassals" of the EU than to be members of it. They probably think they were vassals already and with Brexit they make a point. It should become clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that we will end up with.a arrangement that is significantly worse than what we had while losing a big say over what happens to us. But, hey.
You can tell Leavers think it’s a shitshow because they’ve all started talking about house prices instead. As if that’s going to restore the reputation of politicians that wallowed in xenophobic lies to cut Britain off from the rest of Europe with younger voters.
Are you back to 'xenophobic lies' ranting after making yourself look stupid re strawberries ?
Still if you want xenophobic lies how about this one from a London Remainer MP:
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed. '
Its a 'xenophobic lie' in the manner of that idiotic term.
Of course if Eastern European criminals are behind the rise of London's violent crime then the unlimited migration from Eastern Europe which David Lammy supports is a fundamental feature to it.
I agree with this. Brexit really is dumb. Sadly it's still dumb even if you don't like the EU much and would prefer not to have anything to do with it.
It would just get harder and harder to leave as it became more integrated. So if you prefer not to have anything to do with it, leaving now is the best course of action.
Maybe and definitely for some people, I guess. It seems like an after the fact justification though. The question, "Should we leave the EU?" is a bit like "should I give up work?" A lot of people hate work and might say, Yes. But what are the alternatives? If you need the money, the question wasn't a helpful one. Your explanation only really kicks in if you have already decided to leave but are considering the timing. More like retirement, I suppose.
You make it sound like the world is going to end when the UK leaves. A closer analogy might be you are moving to a different job where the pay may be a tiny bit worse but you don't have to deal with your insufferable old boss.
I didn't say anything about the world ending. The analogy creaks a bit, but the point is there is no other job or boss. That was a false impression from the Leave.side. There is this boss and this job or there is no boss and no job. If the first is intolerable, you are stuck. Hence the mess.
Actually it is just like starting your own business. You become your own boss as far as your business is concerned. I have no idea but wonder if more self employed (I mean the real ones not those using the state as a crutch in a non profitable business) were in favour of Brexit?
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Who will pay the healthcare costs of Brits in the Costa del Sol after Brexit ?
I did notice it was around the time a lot of Russian troll accounts got purged.
But Plato was a real person - was she some sort of deep lying Russian agent ?
I did occasionally wonder if Plato were actually two people but then part of the appeal of the internet is no-one knows you're a Russian troll dog. Did she ever attend a pb meeting?
I did notice it was around the time a lot of Russian troll accounts got purged.
But Plato was a real person - was she some sort of deep lying Russian agent ?
I did occasionally wonder if Plato were actually two people but then part of the appeal of the internet is no-one knows you're a Russian troll dog. Did she ever attend a pb meeting?
I never met her, but I believe she did attend various meet ups.
I did notice it was around the time a lot of Russian troll accounts got purged.
But Plato was a real person - was she some sort of deep lying Russian agent ?
I did occasionally wonder if Plato were actually two people but then part of the appeal of the internet is no-one knows you're a Russian troll dog. Did she ever attend a pb meeting?
I never met her, but I believe she did attend various meet ups.
I did notice it was around the time a lot of Russian troll accounts got purged.
But Plato was a real person - was she some sort of deep lying Russian agent ?
I did occasionally wonder if Plato were actually two people but then part of the appeal of the internet is no-one knows you're a Russian troll dog. Did she ever attend a pb meeting?
I think she did, IIRC some photos were posted a few years ago.
But then people could claim to be someone they're not at a PB meeting.
I did notice it was around the time a lot of Russian troll accounts got purged.
But Plato was a real person - was she some sort of deep lying Russian agent ?
I did occasionally wonder if Plato were actually two people but then part of the appeal of the internet is no-one knows you're a Russian troll dog. Did she ever attend a pb meeting?
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I agree with this. Brexit really is dumb. Sadly it's still dumb even if you don't like the EU much and would prefer not to have anything to do with it.
It would just get harder and harder to leave as it became more integrated. So if you prefer not to have anything to do with it, leaving now is the best course of action.
Maybe and definitely for some people, I guess. It seems like an after the fact justification though. The question, "Should we leave the EU?" is a bit like "should I give up work?" A lot of people hate work and might say, Yes. But what are the alternatives? If you need the money, the question wasn't a helpful one. Your explanation only really kicks in if you have already decided to leave but are considering the timing. More like retirement, I suppose.
You make it sound like the world is going to end when the UK leaves. A closer analogy might be you are moving to a different job where the pay may be a tiny bit worse but you don't have to deal with your insufferable old boss.
I didn't say anything about the world ending. The analogy creaks a bit, but the point is there is no other job or boss. That was a false impression from the Leave.side. There is this boss and this job or there is no boss and no job. If the first is intolerable, you are stuck. Hence the mess.
Actually it is just like starting your own business. You become your own boss as far as your business is concerned. I have no idea but wonder if more self employed (I mean the real ones not those using the state as a crutch in a non profitable business) were in favour of Brexit?
Possibly but not many people would prefer to run their own business rather than have a job and if you don't like working in a job, most of the time you won't want to run your business, which is a lot harder work. Even though I think the EU is a good thing and I also enjoy working, I do think you should be prepared to pack it in if you're not happy. But there are implications and it's stupid not to consider them.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
Somebody wealthy is somebody that's done five times as well as me. It therefore shifts with my net asset value.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
A few years ago he was going out with a divorcee worth £122 million.
So how exactly is Michael Gove supposed to sell a deal to parliament without a majority? Has he a clever solution for the Northern Ireland border conundrum in his back pocket. He may have that ideological enthusiasm for Brexit that Theresa May has never convinced on - but surely he'd be stuck with all the same constraints.
Unless he felt like another snap General Election might help things.
So how exactly is Michael Gove supposed to sell a deal to parliament without a majority? Has he a clever solution for the Northern Ireland border conundrum in his back pocket. He may have that ideological enthusiasm for Brexit that Theresa May has never convinced on - but surely he'd be stuck with all the same constraints.
Unless he felt like another snap General Election might help things.
Apparently his plan is to breach EU rules by signing trade deals. No doubt Liam Fox has a stack of them just waiting for a PM with the guts to sign...
So how exactly is Michael Gove supposed to sell a deal to parliament without a majority? Has he a clever solution for the Northern Ireland border conundrum in his back pocket. He may have that ideological enthusiasm for Brexit that Theresa May has never convinced on - but surely he'd be stuck with all the same constraints.
Unless he felt like another snap General Election might help things.
Apparently his plan is to breach EU rules by signing trade deals. No doubt Liam Fox has a stack of them just waiting for a PM with the guts to sign...
Surely that will be against the law as we signed to be in the EU unless we will now renege on existing and legally binding treaties even if some Britons we do not like them!
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Like I said the other day within days of a no deal Brexit, Leavers will be either forced to recant their Brexit beliefs or be thrown into the sea with concrete shoes.
I did notice it was around the time a lot of Russian troll accounts got purged.
But Plato was a real person - was she some sort of deep lying Russian agent ?
I did occasionally wonder if Plato were actually two people but then part of the appeal of the internet is no-one knows you're a Russian troll dog. Did she ever attend a pb meeting?
She certainly attached her own photo in one of her posts.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
An MP is certainly paid well above average but not even the PM is in the top 1% of earners, the richest MPs either tended to make their money before entering politics like Hammond or inherited it like Goldsmith
Like I said the other day within days of a no deal Brexit, Leavers will be either forced to recant their Brexit beliefs or be thrown into the sea with concrete shoes.
Like I said the other day within days of a no deal Brexit, Leavers will be either forced to recant their Brexit beliefs or be thrown into the sea with concrete shoes.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Don't pay them well?
Average UK income: £27,271 MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Don't pay them well?
Average UK income: £27,271 MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
One would hope, though, that our MPs were of above median ability.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Completely wrong, and an opinion that could only originate from London
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Don't pay them well?
Average UK income: £27,271 MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
One would hope, though, that our MPs were of above median ability.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Don't pay them well?
Average UK income: £27,271 MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
One would hope, though, that our MPs were of above median ability.
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Don't pay them well?
Average UK income: £27,271 MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
One would hope, though, that our MPs were of above median ability.
Perhaps, do we have any evidence for that?
Most have an above median ability to blow their own trumpet & avoid answering a question.
In fairness the current cabinet is genuinely way above median - Hunt, Javid, Hammond, May - all are very intelligent individuals. OTOH the red team...
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Don't pay them well?
Average UK income: £27,271 MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
One would hope, though, that our MPs were of above median ability.
You would hope that but of course the only criteria to be an MP is to get enough nominations, pay a deposit and then get most votes in your constituency.
In the early 1980s a few left-wing Labour MPs like Dave Nellist only took a 'workers wage' equivalent to the average salary
Although Brexit is very definitely a problem, it mostly isn't the EU's problem (unlike Italy which really is s a big threat to the EU). The EU will happily accept the UK as a "vassal". On the assumption that Leave voters also prefer to be a "vassal" of the EU than to go back on their vote, Brexit will go ahead.
Leave voters will only get a chance to go back on their vote if Leave members of the cabinet decide they are more afraid of the political consequences for them of leading the country to vassal status, than they are of the political consequences of a second referendum.
If we get to that point, it will be a completely new vote, and "we said Leave and we meant it" won't gain much traction when it means accepting a concrete deal.
Brexit will only be cancelled if Leave voters urgently change their minds. So far they haven't. The implication is that they prefer to be "vassals" of the EU than to be members of it. They probably think they were vassals already and with Brexit they make a point. It should become clear to anyone paying the slightest attention that we will end up with.a arrangement that is significantly worse than what we had while losing a big say over what happens to us. But, hey.
You can tell Leavers think it’s a shitshow because they’ve all started talking about house prices instead. As if that’s going to restore the reputation of politicians that wallowed in xenophobic lies to cut Britain off from the rest of Europe with younger voters.
Are you back to 'xenophobic lies' ranting after making yourself look stupid re strawberries ?
Still if you want xenophobic lies how about this one from a London Remainer MP:
' Drug gangs controlled by Eastern European criminals are fuelling the rising tide of violent crime in London, a Labour MP has claimed. '
I think complaining about a referendum campaign being divisive is a good working definition of stupidity.
This detracts from the underlying validity of her point.
Has Lawson bribed the French to get his residency? If not, I don't get what all the fuss is about.
Indeed - he has had a home there for many years and is following general advice given by the French authorities. As a Remain voter I'm appalled at the unpleasant tone of these kind of attacks.
Those of course criticising Lawson miss the point. The French government and only them should have the right to determine who can live permanently in France and claim entitlements there and the same applies to Britain - not the EU.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Is he a particularly wealthy man? I'm sure he's done OK for himself, but I doubt he's worth that much.
Define wealthy.
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
I don't know about Lawson's wealth - he's certainly more than just comfortable but I do not think an average MP is that rich. We don't pay them well in this country.
I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Don't pay them well?
Average UK income: £27,271 MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
I expect the best opportunities for politicians to earn the big money comes after they have left front line politics and start taking up directorships etc.
Oh and for my figures I apologise but I used the mean average and not the median average income. The median average is considerably lower at around £22,400 - so the MPs salary is 3.5x the median salary.
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
Though that median figure of £22 500 includes part time workers as well as full time workers and being an MP should be a full time job
Comments
Similar things happen to the fanatics of every defeated political cause.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798775/Far-right-leader-describes-Nazi-era-speck-bird-poop-Germanys-history.html
If plod wanted to look either incompetent or suspicious they're going about it right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44336859
You may be right that in future if we are to have a manufacturing industry it will have to be based on a small number of very highly skilled jobs and in areas in which we still do well like aerospace or pharmaceuticals. However for those who worked in mass manufacturing areas in the North and Midlands and South Wales and the rustbelt in the US there are clearly many who are sympathetic to tariffs and protectionism
Good evening, everybody.
https://www.bloomberg.com/energy
Its not a new occurence either - the xenophobic lie of "the locals aren't willing to do the work" has been repeated for years.
I expect Lawson pays rather a lot in taxes as he is a wealthy man. And if he uses the French healthcare system the UK will pick up the costs. So I expect France gets a good deal from him living there as he will never need to claim welfare or be a burden on the state.
Quality not quantity.
Meanwhile in Sarah Wollaston's constituency average house prices are 14 times average earnings.
That's a lot bigger problem for a lot more people.
He'll be treated in the same way as other British citizens who want to reside in France.
If the French government are happy to have him or other people then they will be allowed to live there, if not then its au revoir to Lawson and any others.
The only direct feedback of that nature was the French reaction to Cameron’s renegotiation.
I have said that I expect (or hope) there are serious discussions going on behind the scenes and a lot of the noise is for show / to sell papers.
https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/1002286412597809153
Do you follow more twatterers than Scott does ?
I don't follow him someone I do follow retweeted that with a lot of sarcasm.
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1002918348081025026
Of course if Eastern European criminals are behind the rise of London's violent crime then the unlimited migration from Eastern Europe which David Lammy supports is a fundamental feature to it.
I'd be fun to know what got her the big red card.
He’s a former Holocaust denier who now says Hitler/Nazis were lefties so that’s why he now believes the Holocaust happened.
But then people could claim to be someone they're not at a PB meeting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG5CaF7PZdc
He's no Richard Branson but I'm sure he's well above average as far as wealth and thus taxation is concerned. All MPs are.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2113965/Nigel-Lawson-enjoys-80th-birthday-girlfriend-decade-younger-daughter-Nigella.html
His daughter Nigella is worth £15 million and was worth about £110 million when she was married to Charles Saatchi
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-510913/I-wont-leaving-children-penny-says-Nigella-Lawson.html
Unless he felt like another snap General Election might help things.
Better than a Bad DealDOOMSDAY !!!I am also sure in the last 40 years their average pay increase has been well below average earnings growth.
Brexit will be brilliant.
Brexit will be OK.
Never said Brexit would be brilliant.
Brexit will not be as bad as the Black death.
DOOMSDAY !!!
Average UK income: £27,271
MP's basic income: £77,379
A backbench MP let alone a minister earns more than £50k above the average UK income or roughly 3x the average UK income. If we paid our MPs a median UK salary they'd be taking a dramatic pay cut.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10173107/MPs-pay-rise-how-politicians-pay-has-risen-quicker-than-the-workers.html
The Blitz only destroyed half of our car factories...
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1002980030731964416
I AM THE LAW !!!
In fact a backbencher let alone a minister is in the top 5 percentile for income in this country.
In fairness the current cabinet is genuinely way above median - Hunt, Javid, Hammond, May - all are very intelligent individuals. OTOH the red team...
In the early 1980s a few left-wing Labour MPs like Dave Nellist only took a 'workers wage' equivalent to the average salary
This generation’s “and the dead went unburied” narrative has been written and Leaver Conservatives are oblivious.