Thirty Trains with only one driver is called Northern Rail
2200 cancelled trains in a fortnight due to lack of drivers
AIUI, in Northern's case lack of drivers is not a root cause of the problems, but a consequence of other failures.
In Northern's case it's almost all the fault of nationalised Network Rail and the mandarins at the DfT. Over-running works by the nationalised Network Rail means that Northern have been unable to train enough drivers for the timetable service that the DfT promised. Northern are not blameless, but AIUI they're more sinned against than sinning.
And the people who have failed are exactly the people you want running the entire railway ...
(The situation on GTR is similar, although GTR do share more of the blame than Northern do for their respective woes.)
BTW Northern Rail is owned by Deutsche Bahn which is the German railway company. Headquartered in Berlin, it is a private joint-stock company, with the Federal Republic of Germany being its single shareholder.
I am well aware of that. It is also utterly irrelevant.
"Gab is a Philadelphia, Pennsylvania-based social networking service formerly based in Austin, Texas.[5][1] It was created as an alternative to Twitter and promotes itself as supporting free speech.[6] Gab has been described as a platform for white supremacists and the alt-right."
I'm not surprised Apple blocked the Gab app as they are rather careful about the content they allow into their walled garden, but it takes something special for Google Play to block the app as well.
Thirty Trains with only one driver is called Northern Rail
2200 cancelled trains in a fortnight due to lack of drivers
AIUI, in Northern's case lack of drivers is not a root cause of the problems, but a consequence of other failures.
In Northern's case it's almost all the fault of nationalised Network Rail and the mandarins at the DfT. Over-running works by the nationalised Network Rail means that Northern have been unable to train enough drivers for the timetable service that the DfT promised. Northern are not blameless, but AIUI they're more sinned against than sinning.
And the people who have failed are exactly the people you want running the entire railway ...
(The situation on GTR is similar, although GTR do share more of the blame than Northern do for their respective woes.)
Thirty Trains with only one driver is called Northern Rail
2200 cancelled trains in a fortnight due to lack of drivers
AIUI, in Northern's case lack of drivers is not a root cause of the problems, but a consequence of other failures.
In Northern's case it's almost all the fault of nationalised Network Rail and the mandarins at the DfT. Over-running works by the nationalised Network Rail means that Northern have been unable to train enough drivers for the timetable service that the DfT promised. Northern are not blameless, but AIUI they're more sinned against than sinning.
And the people who have failed are exactly the people you want running the entire railway ...
(The situation on GTR is similar, although GTR do share more of the blame than Northern do for their respective woes.)
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I wish things had been different in the negotiations but the UK has screwed up and it is the leadership, in collective cabinet responsibility who have made a mess of this.
We look like we are going to get a worse deal than the one we had. The argument of the Brexiteers, that trade will continue what ever the outcome is a double edged sword. Maybe the Germans to cite his example are extoling the virtue of his argument in reverse? I think it is utter madness and Boris should act like a leader and say we tried the re-negotiation route but the deal was not as good as the one we had, so should just stay on the original terms. Several governments from the 1980s onward have fashioned from within a community of co-operating economic interests to mutual benefit. Remember Thatcher was a key advocate of the single market and various tweaks since have built on those foundations.
America and the rest of the world are not going to ride to the rescue, Brexit shows populism does not work and the US are heading for the same calamitous precipice through different pressures.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
It's just a little bit more complicated than that Ben. Unfamiliarity with routes (including the aforementioned use of bus drivers) led to the following unfortunate incidents:
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
It's just a little bit more complicated than that Ben. Unfamiliarity with routes (including the aforementioned use of bus drivers) led to the following unfortunate incidents:
I knew there would be a serious point behind it and as a regular user of the West of England line (largely single track beyond Salisbury) I am very pleased to know that the drivers receive full route training!
There's a certain irony that Trump has singled out the German car maker that is probably most committed to manufacturing in the US.
Yes, that was a silly example to choose. I’d guess that only the high end S-class and AMG models sold in the US are made in Germany, Mercedes is quite likely to be a net exporter of cars from the US.
Car Imports into the United States
Below are the top 15 suppliers from which the United States imported the highest dollar value worth of cars during 2017. Within parenthesis is the percentage change in value for each supplying country since 2013.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
Appreciate all that. Some obvious questions arise however.
If drivers weren't trained in time (and, as you say it takes a while, so could not have been entirely unforeseen), and upgrades hadn't been completed (again not exactly Breaking News), meaning some services could not run, why did they blithely include them with the new timetable?
If drivers couldn't get to depots, are there no taxis?
Why is the situation worsening, rather than improving, after 13 days to iron out at least some of the issues?
Grayling should certainly accept he has made a pig's ear of all this.
He may have a point about Network Rail, and the Unions responsibility in this, but he is the Transport Minister after all.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
There's a certain irony that Trump has singled out the German car maker that is probably most committed to manufacturing in the US.
Yes, that was a silly example to choose. I’d guess that only the high end S-class and AMG models sold in the US are made in Germany, Mercedes is quite likely to be a net exporter of cars from the US.
Car Imports into the United States
Below are the top 15 suppliers from which the United States imported the highest dollar value worth of cars during 2017. Within parenthesis is the percentage change in value for each supplying country since 2013.
The listed 15 countries shipped 98.6% of all American cars imports in 2017.
Finland???
I thought I knew the automotive space pretty well. But I have literally no idea who manufactures cars in Finland.
Possibly Valmet Automotive which is a sub contract vehicle assembler.
Valmet's total sales are €400m, so I can't see them doing $1.2bn of exports to the US.
That being said, thank you for pointing them out to me. I now know that Valmet makes some Mercedes A Class and GLC Class cars for Daimler.
Thinking about it, it's possible that the €400m of revenues understates Valmet's importance. If Mercedes Benz supplies all the parts and Valmet just does assembly, then they could produce a lot more cars than the top line number suggests.
That being said, part two, Mercedes already makes the GLC in the US, and I don't reckon the market for the A Class is that big over here...
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
I just saw that Platosays has been suspended from Twitter.
Her journey from centre-right to further-right to alt-right to mentalist-right was fun to watch. What did she do?
In the very earliest days of PB she was a Tony Blair supporter.
That might have been her crime.
I was on from pretty early, and don't actually remember her ever saying she currently supported Tony Blair. It was always a miasmal state perceived in the rear mirror as she accelerated away.
But what on earth did she say to make Twitter ban her? Isn't it full of loudmouths abusing each other without sanction?
I think they will fudge and rebrand it sufficiently. For most Leavers I think it is mainly the symbolism, and that they were listened to. For Remainers it is minimisng the economic and political damage.
If there were a referendum on CU/SM (+ fudge FOM) for the foreseeable future outside the EU versus remaining in the EU, which do you think would win?
CUSMFFOM (aka "BINO") would beat Remain. But there probably won't be a referendum with those two options. The major parties might as well blow a whistle and call pitchfork time.
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
I think they will fudge and rebrand it sufficiently. For most Leavers I think it is mainly the symbolism, and that they were listened to. For Remainers it is minimisng the economic and political damage.
If there were a referendum on CU/SM (+ fudge FOM) for the foreseeable future outside the EU versus remaining in the EU, which do you think would win?
CUSMFFOM (aka "BINO") would beat Remain. But there probably won't be a referendum with those two options. The major parties might as well blow a whistle and call pitchfork time.
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
And while you're at it, can you let me know what this week's winning lottery number are please?
I just saw that Platosays has been suspended from Twitter.
Her journey from centre-right to further-right to alt-right to mentalist-right was fun to watch. What did she do?
In the very earliest days of PB she was a Tony Blair supporter.
That might have been her crime.
I was on from pretty early, and don't actually remember her ever saying she currently supported Tony Blair. It was always a miasmal state perceived in the rear mirror as she accelerated away.
But what on earth did she say to make Twitter ban her? Isn't it full of loudmouths abusing each other without sanction?
Given Twitter is OK with users posting the claim that a 10 year old George Soros was an SS Member who rounded up Jews and made millions stealing their money, one has to assume that it was pretty outrageous.
Appreciate all that. Some obvious questions arise however.
If drivers weren't trained in time (and, as you say it takes a while, so could not have been entirely unforeseen), and upgrades hadn't been completed (again not exactly Breaking News), meaning some services could not run, why did they blithely include them with the new timetable?
If drivers couldn't get to depots, are there no taxis?
Why is the situation worsening, rather than improving, after 13 days to iron out at least some of the issues?
Grayling should certainly accept he has made a pig's ear of all this.
He may have a point about Network Rail, and the Unions responsibility in this, but he is the Transport Minister after all.
Okay, please note IANAE on this, but AIUI:
The rail timetables are usually agreed three months in advance, and the major timetable change of the year is in May, in time for summer. This gives the operators three months to prepare and passengers plenty of notice of changes.
This year's timetable change is massive, especially for GTR who are starting to take advantage of the new Thameslink infrastructure and new trains - it has been claimed it is the biggest set if timetable changes since nationalisation (yes, that's seventy years). And it is just the start of a whole series of changes over the next few years.
Unfortunately, the new timetables relies on NR completing infrastructure enhancements, such as the electrification of some northern routes or Thameslink works. Thameslink's timetable in particular depends on a very ambitious number of trains through the core of the network.
These works were not completed in time, meaning that the timetabling team - apparently part of NR - had to replan for the infrastructure that was not complete. This meant that some operators were only given their final timetables a week - or even a few days - before the change. And even then NR did not complete some of the work in time. This meant the operators were desperately having to catch up in terms of training.
The DfT's role is to run the process, amongst other things, and they've utterly failed in that. And yes, Grayling's essentially in charge. They're particularly to blame in the case of GTR's woes, as they specified the minimum number of trains required to operate the service and specified too low a number of drivers in the franchise. They should also be talking to all stakeholders to ensure the process runs smoothly.
Now, as to why things are getting worse. I don't know, but I can make a few (un?)educated guesses. Firstly, the timetable planners are trying to catch up with a fluid situation. Secondly, the cancellations and delays mean that stock is never where it is needed to run other services, causing a cascade of delays and services (this can be seen after a major incident, when it can take many hours for services to run to timetable again). Thirdly, staff will be utterly demoralised.
And to get back to how I started on this topic: this would have happened with nationalised operators.
It's an absolute bloody mess, but anyone blindly blaming the operators is wrong. Whilst everyone shares the blame, from what I know at the moment the lion's share would have to go on NR and the DfT.
I think they will fudge and rebrand it sufficiently. For most Leavers I think it is mainly the symbolism, and that they were listened to. For Remainers it is minimisng the economic and political damage.
If there were a referendum on CU/SM (+ fudge FOM) for the foreseeable future outside the EU versus remaining in the EU, which do you think would win?
CUSMFFOM (aka "BINO") would beat Remain. But there probably won't be a referendum with those two options. The major parties might as well blow a whistle and call pitchfork time.
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
As @HYUFD has posted, the single most important part of the Brexit vote is immigration. The second most important part is sovereignty.
Now, if the UK had a system like the US does for Canadians, where you need a sponsoring company before a work permit is issued, then that *might* be enough. It would certainly restrict the number of speculative and low skilled economic migrants.
As far as sovereignty, the ECJ would only have jurisdiction over single market issues, not over things like votes for prisoners. So, again, it might work.
I think - however - that if were to do this, then it would probably need to be time limited, so that if it wasn't acceptable to the UK population, then we could move on from it in a reasonable fashion.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
I think they will fudge and rebrand it sufficiently. For most Leavers I think it is mainly the symbolism, and that they were listened to. For Remainers it is minimisng the economic and political damage.
If there were a referendum on CU/SM (+ fudge FOM) for the foreseeable future outside the EU versus remaining in the EU, which do you think would win?
CUSMFFOM (aka "BINO") would beat Remain. But there probably won't be a referendum with those two options. The major parties might as well blow a whistle and call pitchfork time.
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
As @HYUFD has posted, the single most important part of the Brexit vote is immigration. The second most important part is sovereignty.
Now, if the UK had a system like the US does for Canadians, where you need a sponsoring company before a work permit is issued, then that *might* be enough. It would certainly restrict the number of speculative and low skilled economic migrants.
As far as sovereignty, the ECJ would only have jurisdiction over single market issues, not over things like votes for prisoners. So, again, it might work.
I think - however - that if were to do this, then it would probably need to be time limited, so that if it wasn't acceptable to the UK population, then we could move on from it in a reasonable fashion.
The Northern Ireland backstop can’t be time limited. If we decide to “move on”, it can’t create the conditions for economic divergence on the island of Ireland. So whatever the deal, the backstop needs to get through parliament.
I think they will fudge and rebrand it sufficiently. For most Leavers I think it is mainly the symbolism, and that they were listened to. For Remainers it is minimisng the economic and political damage.
If there were a referendum on CU/SM (+ fudge FOM) for the foreseeable future outside the EU versus remaining in the EU, which do you think would win?
CUSMFFOM (aka "BINO") would beat Remain. But there probably won't be a referendum with those two options. The major parties might as well blow a whistle and call pitchfork time.
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
As @HYUFD has posted, the single most important part of the Brexit vote is immigration. The second most important part is sovereignty.
Now, if the UK had a system like the US does for Canadians, where you need a sponsoring company before a work permit is issued, then that *might* be enough. It would certainly restrict the number of speculative and low skilled economic migrants.
As far as sovereignty, the ECJ would only have jurisdiction over single market issues, not over things like votes for prisoners. So, again, it might work.
I think - however - that if were to do this, then it would probably need to be time limited, so that if it wasn't acceptable to the UK population, then we could move on from it in a reasonable fashion.
Where does access to welfare fit into this vision? Because that was certainly an issue although bluntly it said as much about our welfare system as it did about FOM.
Now, as to why things are getting worse. I don't know, but I can make a few (un?)educated guesses. Firstly, the timetable planners are trying to catch up with a fluid situation. Secondly, the cancellations and delays mean that stock is never where it is needed to run other services, causing a cascade of delays and services (this can be seen after a major incident, when it can take many hours for services to run to timetable again). Thirdly, staff will be utterly demoralised.
And to get back to how I started on this topic: this would have happened with nationalised operators.
It's an absolute bloody mess, but anyone blindly blaming the operators is wrong. Whilst everyone shares the blame, from what I know at the moment the lion's share would have to go on NR and the DfT.
Fair enough. I apologise for firing a list of questions at you.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
I think they will fudge and rebrand it sufficiently. For most Leavers I think it is mainly the symbolism, and that they were listened to. For Remainers it is minimisng the economic and political damage.
If there were a referendum on CU/SM (+ fudge FOM) for the foreseeable future outside the EU versus remaining in the EU, which do you think would win?
CUSMFFOM (aka "BINO") would beat Remain. But there probably won't be a referendum with those two options. The major parties might as well blow a whistle and call pitchfork time.
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
As @HYUFD has posted, the single most important part of the Brexit vote is immigration. The second most important part is sovereignty.
Now, if the UK had a system like the US does for Canadians, where you need a sponsoring company before a work permit is issued, then that *might* be enough. It would certainly restrict the number of speculative and low skilled economic migrants.
As far as sovereignty, the ECJ would only have jurisdiction over single market issues, not over things like votes for prisoners. So, again, it might work.
I think - however - that if were to do this, then it would probably need to be time limited, so that if it wasn't acceptable to the UK population, then we could move on from it in a reasonable fashion.
Where does access to welfare fit into this vision? Because that was certainly an issue although bluntly it said as much about our welfare system as it did about FOM.
Switzerland requires all residents to have paid Health Care, but restricts the cheapest plans to Swiss citizens, so I suspect there's some kind of wiggle room there.
As an aside, a wholesale redesign of Housing Benefit (aka the greatest buy to let subsidy in the world) would be a good start.
Now, as to why things are getting worse. I don't know, but I can make a few (un?)educated guesses. Firstly, the timetable planners are trying to catch up with a fluid situation. Secondly, the cancellations and delays mean that stock is never where it is needed to run other services, causing a cascade of delays and services (this can be seen after a major incident, when it can take many hours for services to run to timetable again). Thirdly, staff will be utterly demoralised.
And to get back to how I started on this topic: this would have happened with nationalised operators.
It's an absolute bloody mess, but anyone blindly blaming the operators is wrong. Whilst everyone shares the blame, from what I know at the moment the lion's share would have to go on NR and the DfT.
Fair enough. I apologise for firing a list of questions at you.
No problem. It allowed me to get my thoughts in order as well. And I quite enjoyed it.
Well, that is certainly the line of Grayling and the Govt. However, were that to be the case, surely, by the 13th day of the new timetable, logic would dictate that the problems would be gradually easing? Instead, today is the worst yet. So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory. The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
I just saw that Platosays has been suspended from Twitter.
Her journey from centre-right to further-right to alt-right to mentalist-right was fun to watch. What did she do?
In the very earliest days of PB she was a Tony Blair supporter.
That might have been her crime.
I was on from pretty early, and don't actually remember her ever saying she currently supported Tony Blair. It was always a miasmal state perceived in the rear mirror as she accelerated away.
But what on earth did she say to make Twitter ban her? Isn't it full of loudmouths abusing each other without sanction?
Given Twitter is OK with users posting the claim that a 10 year old George Soros was an SS Member who rounded up Jews and made millions stealing their money, one has to assume that it was pretty outrageous.
I’ll never forget the time she confused uranium with plutonium when trying to push the alt-right “Uranium One” conspiracy
I think they will fudge and rebrand it sufficiently. For most Leavers I think it is mainly the symbolism, and that they were listened to. For Remainers it is minimisng the economic and political damage.
If there were a referendum on CU/SM (+ fudge FOM) for the foreseeable future outside the EU versus remaining in the EU, which do you think would win?
CUSMFFOM (aka "BINO") would beat Remain. But there probably won't be a referendum with those two options. The major parties might as well blow a whistle and call pitchfork time.
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
As @HYUFD has posted, the single most important part of the Brexit vote is immigration. The second most important part is sovereignty.
Now, if the UK had a system like the US does for Canadians, where you need a sponsoring company before a work permit is issued, then that *might* be enough. It would certainly restrict the number of speculative and low skilled economic migrants.
As far as sovereignty, the ECJ would only have jurisdiction over single market issues, not over things like votes for prisoners. So, again, it might work.
I think - however - that if were to do this, then it would probably need to be time limited, so that if it wasn't acceptable to the UK population, then we could move on from it in a reasonable fashion.
The Northern Ireland backstop can’t be time limited. If we decide to “move on”, it can’t create the conditions for economic divergence on the island of Ireland. So whatever the deal, the backstop needs to get through parliament.
There’s no chance of a majority in Parliament for what amounts to the EU annexing NI and putting a full customs border in the Irish Sea.
Given that the EU seem determined to offer the binary choice of the Irish Sea border or no deal, then its looking increasingly like no deal.
As I always say, I hope that the adults are working through the issues behind the scenes.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
You should have been a word with Richard Branson; after the Grayrigg crash he said:
"Our driver could have run from his seat and dashed to the next carriage, where he might well have been safe,' said Sir Richard. "Instead, he tried to steer the train to safety. "
You cannot train train drivers up quickly - route learning alone takes a while, yet alone getting used to new rolling stock. A little history: at the dawn of privatisation, one of the two large bus companies (I forget which one) took over and sacked a lot of train drivers, thinking they could operate as leanly as they do with busses. They soon learnt that train drivers require much more training that bus drivers. ISTR it caused more than a little chaos.
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
I'm sure those are all very valid and serious points but the concept of 'route learning' for train drivers always makes me smile - after all, it's not as if they ever have to decide which line to take at any junctions, do they?
It’s a two stage process, firstly the drivers get trained on their equipment (the type of train they will drive), then they get trained on their route (signal position, junctions, stations etc.) in their train type.
Which means they’re SOL if the infrastructure to run the new trains isn’t ready, as none of the drivers will know the routes. Even if they’d worked similar routes in other types of train previously, the infrastructure changes will mean the route needs relearning and revalidating, the drivers won’t be ‘current’ on the trains or the routes if they’ve not been down them for a while etc.
It can very quickly snowball, even before problems like getting drivers to depots to pick up trains in the morning.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
I just saw that Platosays has been suspended from Twitter.
Her journey from centre-right to further-right to alt-right to mentalist-right was fun to watch. What did she do?
In the very earliest days of PB she was a Tony Blair supporter.
That might have been her crime.
I was on from pretty early, and don't actually remember her ever saying she currently supported Tony Blair. It was always a miasmal state perceived in the rear mirror as she accelerated away.
But what on earth did she say to make Twitter ban her? Isn't it full of loudmouths abusing each other without sanction?
Given Twitter is OK with users posting the claim that a 10 year old George Soros was an SS Member who rounded up Jews and made millions stealing their money, one has to assume that it was pretty outrageous.
I’ll never forget the time she confused uranium with plutonium when trying to push the alt-right “Uranium One” conspiracy
My favourite was when she thought 'Lenny' Riefenstahl was a bloke. I was put on the misogynist bully naughty step for correcting that misapprehension.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
Somehow those are evil things (I'd not seen them before so thanks). I rather like railways, and something that uses railways to destroy them isn't playing the game.
I think they will fudge and rebrand it sufficiently. For most Leavers I think it is mainly the symbolism, and that they were listened to. For Remainers it is minimisng the economic and political damage.
If there were a referendum on CU/SM (+ fudge FOM) for the foreseeable future outside the EU versus remaining in the EU, which do you think would win?
CUSMFFOM (aka "BINO") would beat Remain. But there probably won't be a referendum with those two options. The major parties might as well blow a whistle and call pitchfork time.
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
As @HYUFD has posted, the single most important part of the Brexit vote is immigration. The second most important part is sovereignty.
Now, if the UK had a system like the US does for Canadians, where you need a sponsoring company before a work permit is issued, then that *might* be enough. It would certainly restrict the number of speculative and low skilled economic migrants.
As far as sovereignty, the ECJ would only have jurisdiction over single market issues, not over things like votes for prisoners. So, again, it might work.
I think - however - that if were to do this, then it would probably need to be time limited, so that if it wasn't acceptable to the UK population, then we could move on from it in a reasonable fashion.
The Northern Ireland backstop can’t be time limited. If we decide to “move on”, it can’t create the conditions for economic divergence on the island of Ireland. So whatever the deal, the backstop needs to get through parliament.
There’s no chance of a majority in Parliament for what amounts to the EU annexing NI and putting a full customs border in the Irish Sea.
Given that the EU seem determined to offer the binary choice of the Irish Sea border or no deal, then its looking increasingly like no deal.
As I always say, I hope that the adults are working through the issues behind the scenes.
Is there really a 3rd way of any kind? Either a customs border at sea or a border on the Irish mainland. All other options seem fanciful.
The only other option - which so far as I know only Lord Lawson has suggested - is for the ROI to leave the EU. I don't know whether to be impressed by the honesty or appalled at the impertinence.
Now, as to why things are getting worse. I don't know, but I can make a few (un?)educated guesses. Firstly, the timetable planners are trying to catch up with a fluid situation. Secondly, the cancellations and delays mean that stock is never where it is needed to run other services, causing a cascade of delays and services (this can be seen after a major incident, when it can take many hours for services to run to timetable again). Thirdly, staff will be utterly demoralised.
And to get back to how I started on this topic: this would have happened with nationalised operators.
It's an absolute bloody mess, but anyone blindly blaming the operators is wrong. Whilst everyone shares the blame, from what I know at the moment the lion's share would have to go on NR and the DfT.
The only other option - which so far as I know only Lord Lawson has suggested - is for the ROI to leave the EU. I don't know whether to be impressed by the honesty or appalled at the impertinence.
The odds of that happening are approximately the same as the odds of Diane Abbott putting forward numbers that make something vaguely akin to sense.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
Somehow those are evil things (I'd not seen them before so thanks). I rather like railways, and something that uses railways to destroy them isn't playing the game.
I seem to recall footage from the World at War episode on the Holocaust of the retreating Germans using these to rip up the rail lines to the extermination camps, presumably in a vain attempt at a cover up.
Davis has given up trying to make Brexit work. No-one else in government is serious about it. In three months something has to be agreed before we leave the EU. Is this just deflection activity before we inevitably accept client status or is the government grossly negligent about whether there's a deal?
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
Somehow those are evil things (I'd not seen them before so thanks). I rather like railways, and something that uses railways to destroy them isn't playing the game.
I seem to recall footage from the World at War episode on the Holocaust of the retreating Germans using these to rip up the rail lines to the extermination camps, presumably in a vain attempt at a cover up.
Would have thought it was more likely to slow down the advance on the camps to give them more time to destroy them. Railway ploughs don't dismantle a railway, only leave it unusable.
Davis has given up trying to make Brexit work. No-one else in government is serious about it. In three months something has to be agreed before we leave the EU. Is this just deflection activity before we inevitably accept client status or is the government grossly negligent about whether there's a deal?
To quote Sir Richard Evans, 'I would go for the Second of those alternatives.'
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.
They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.
Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.
We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.
I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.
Well, I was beginning to doubt my Brexit vote (not for the first time) until Italy came along, and a Germans eurocrat warned the Italians the markets would teach them what was the "right" way to vote, a German MEP said the Troika would "march on Rome" if Italy tried anything remotely eurosceptic, and Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
At that point the hard Brexit steel re-entered my soul. Clearly you have no soul if you don't find this euro-reich shit slightly chilling.
It saddens me deeply, but we must Leave. It will cost us, but maybe our sacrifice will help Europe in the end.
I offer you this quote from William Pitt the Younger: “England has saved herself by her exertions, and will, as I trust, save Europe by her example.”
... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.
People who scream about how technology will fix a certain problem tend to be either not understand technolowgy, or work for companies that want to make and sell the technology. Sadly, all too often the latter are snake-oil salesmen.
Witness all the current hysteria over how driverless cars will make all truck drivers redundant in ten years (c) SeanT. Here's a hint: no, they won't.
Therefore, if someone offers a technological solution to a problem, make sure that it exists and has been proven. If it does not exist, be very, very wary: it *may* work, but probably won't. And if it does, expect to pay much more than they initially promise.
They will
Well, considering it must be two years since you first said that, I guess we have eight years to go.
Have Tesla's recent woes with Autopilot given you pause for thought? Amongst other problem, the company this is supposed to be bringing driverless cars to the masses cannot even get their cars to brake reliably ...
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
Somehow those are evil things (I'd not seen them before so thanks). I rather like railways, and something that uses railways to destroy them isn't playing the game.
I seem to recall footage from the World at War episode on the Holocaust of the retreating Germans using these to rip up the rail lines to the extermination camps, presumably in a vain attempt at a cover up.
Would have thought it was more likely to slow down the advance on the camps to give them more time to destroy them. Railway ploughs don't dismantle a railway, only leave it unusable.
Call me a bloody minded pedant, but I just checked the WaW Holocaust episode and it shows this towards the end. Of course they may be incorrect, but perhaps logic wasn't a primary element of the Holocaust at any point of its horrible existence.
Not sure I can see it looking good on your stereotypical balding beer bellied England fan...
Yes, not one for the rather more sartorial Dr Foxy. I shall be wearing my England 1990 strip. No beer belly on me then or now
But Nigeria is rapidly growing. It is projected to be the 3rd most populous country in the world, surpassing the USA by 2050. Africa is the young continent, so a massive market for this sort of stuff.
Wow - a whole 18 Labour MPs call for a second referendum - all of them from London.
It must be really brave representing a London seat and backing calls for a second referendum - sorry second 'people's vote' cos they didn't like the result of the first 'people's vote'.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me genuinely wondering why they say it. This is three different eurocrats who have swiftly deleted or retracted what they said, nonetheless they did express it. Why? I see two likely answers:
1. They are in a Federalist, integrationist, Bruxellois bubble: they simply don't realise how badly they come across to ordinary voters, especially in places like Italy which have not prospered in the euro
2. They know exactly how they come across. They are beginning not to care. They see their Federal EU Empire is in sight, so they are angered by last-ditch attempts to halt it, and the anger flares into vision (anger which is then, reluctantly, hidden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
Either way, f*ck ‘em.
This sort of thing makes me want to vote for Brexit ten times all over again.
Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.
They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.
Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.
We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.
I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.
Well, I was beginning to doubt my Brexit vote (not for the first time) until Italy came along, and a Germans eurocrat warned the Italians the markets would teach them what was the "right" way to vote, a German MEP said the Troika would "march on Rome" if Italy tried anything remotely eurosceptic, and Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
At that point the hard Brexit steel re-entered my soul. Clearly you have no soul if you don't find this euro-reich shit slightly chilling.
It saddens me deeply, but we must Leave. It will cost us, but maybe our sacrifice will help Europe in the end.
I offer you this quote from William Pitt the Younger: “England has saved herself by her exertions, and will, as I trust, save Europe by her example.”
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me genuinely wondering why they say it. This is three different eurocrats who have swiftly deleted or retracted what they said, nonetheless they did express it. Why? I see two likely answers:
1. They are in a Federalist, integrationist, Bruxellois bubble: they simply don't realise how badly they come across to ordinary voters, especially in places like Italy which have not prospered in the euro
2. They know exactly how they come across. They are beginning not to care. They see their Federal EU Empire is in sight, so they are angered by last-ditch attempts to halt it, and the anger flares into vision (anger which is then, reluctantly, hidden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
It's odd. A federal Europe could be to Italy's advantage. We've talked a lot on here about needing money flow from richer to poor parts of the currency union. So in that respect the people who should be worried by the Brussels bureaucrats.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me genuinely wondering why they say it. This is three different eurocrats who have swiftly deleted or retracted what they said, nonetheless they did express it. Why? I see two likely answers:
1. They are in a Federalist, integrationist, Bruxellois bubble: they simply don't realise how badly they come across to ordinary voters, especially in places like Italy which have not prospered in the euro
2. They know exactly how they come across. They are beginning not to care. They see their Federal EU Empire is in sight, so they are angered by last-ditch attempts to halt it, and the anger flares into vision (anger which is then, reluctantly, hidden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
Either way, f*ck ‘em.
This sort of thing makes me want to vote for Brexit ten times all over again.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me genuinely wondering why they say it. This is three different eurocrats who have swiftly deleted or retracted what they said, nonetheless they did express it. Why? I see two likely answers:
1. They are in a Federalist, integrationist, Bruxellois bubble: they simply don't realise how badly they come across to ordinary voters, especially in places like Italy which have not prospered in the euro
2. They know exactly how they come across. They are beginning not to care. They see their Federal EU Empire is in sight, so they are angered by last-ditch attempts to halt it, and the anger flares into vision (anger which is then, reluctantly, hidden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
Either way, f*ck ‘em.
This sort of thing makes me want to vote for Brexit ten times all over again.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
Somehow those are evil things (I'd not seen them before so thanks). I rather like railways, and something that uses railways to destroy them isn't playing the game.
I seem to recall footage from the World at War episode on the Holocaust of the retreating Germans using these to rip up the rail lines to the extermination camps, presumably in a vain attempt at a cover up.
Would have thought it was more likely to slow down the advance on the camps to give them more time to destroy them. Railway ploughs don't dismantle a railway, only leave it unusable.
Call me a bloody minded pedant, but I just checked the WaW Holocaust episode and it shows this towards the end. Of course they may be incorrect, but perhaps logic wasn't a primary element of the Holocaust at any point of its horrible existence.
I'm not disputing it happened, just doubtful whether the reason you offered for it met the case. From that point of view, I demand the right to be PB's premier bloody-minded pedant
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me genuinely wondering why they say it. This is three different eurocrats who have swiftly deleted or retracted what they said, nonetheless they did express it. Why? I see two likely answers:
1. They are in a Federalist, integrationist, Bruxellois bubble: they simply don't realise how badly they come across to ordinary voters, especially in places like Italy which have not prospered in the euro
2. They know exactly how they come across. They are beginning not to care. They see their Federal EU Empire is in sight, so they are angered by last-ditch attempts to halt it, and the anger flares into vision (anger which is then, reluctantly, hidden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
Either way, f*ck ‘em.
This sort of thing makes me want to vote for Brexit ten times all over again.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me genuinely wondering why they say it. This is three different eurocrats who have swiftly deleted or retracted what they said, nonetheless they did express it. Why? I see two likely answers:
1. They are in a Federalist, integrationist, Bruxellois bubble: they simply don't realise how badly they come across to ordinary voters, especially in places like Italy which have not prospered in the euro
2. They know exactly how they come across. They are beginning not to care. They see their Federal EU Empire is in sight, so they are angered by last-ditch attempts to halt it, and the anger flares into vision (anger which is then, reluctantly, hidden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
Either way, f*ck ‘em.
This sort of thing makes me want to vote for Brexit ten times all over again.
You want another 10 referendums?!
10 more, 10 more wins for leave. Maybe you remainers will finally accept the result!
Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.
We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.
I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.
.
At that point the hard Brexit steel re-entered my soul. Clearly you have no soul if you don't find this euro-reich shit slightly chilling.
It saddens me deeply, but we must Leave. It will cost us, but maybe our sacrifice will help Europe in the end.
I offer you this quote from William Pitt the Younger: “England has saved herself by her exertions, and will, as I trust, save Europe by her example.”
Think about it rationally before going into a rant.
Nobody forced Italy to join the Euro or the EU or the EEC. They joined and they knew the rules, they have in the past broken the rules and been fined for it IIRC. Personally I think Italy joining the Euro was ill advised for them as a nation and for the Euro area overall. I am glad the UK never joined the Euro and would Never have supported it in the past or in alternative circumstances in the future as Monetary policy is such a diverse and heavy weapon when the shit hits the fan economically i.e. 2008!
In terms of the EU and its legislation,the UK has never deliberately broken the rules to my knowledge and has implemented the directives as they have been instigated. Sure environmental standards have been missed but is it really a bad thing forcing emitters of pollution to minimise the toxins being discharged into the environment?
The Germans are in a minority in the EU as are any other Nation state. The EU works by consensus. Germany gets dictated to as much as any other EU state if you look at it objectively from nationalistic perspectives. The EU is not perfect but neither is being outside it for trade purposes once you have locked into it as the UK has done for decades. It is alright saying it does not matter if your job, home, assets or relationships are not affected but we live in an increasingly sophisticated society where social disruption has an acute impact on the lives of many who do not have the means to negate any massive shock.
But we should all be in no doubt, the era of the human-driven petrol-fuelled car is coming to an end. We are about to see what it was like to live 1895-1920, when horses gave way to internal combustion.
I actually saw a dog-cart in Shifnal on Wednesday evening. Was so astonished I stared, and nearly drove into it.
Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.
We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.
I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.
.
At that point the hard Brexit steel re-entered my soul. Clearly you have no soul if you don't find this euro-reich shit slightly chilling.
It saddens me deeply, but we must Leave. It will cost us, but maybe our sacrifice will help Europe in the end.
I offer you this quote from William Pitt the Younger: “England has saved herself by her exertions, and will, as I trust, save Europe by her example.”
Think about it rationally before going into a rant.
Nobody forced Italy to join the Euro or the EU or the EEC. They joined and they knew the rules, they have in the past broken the rules and been fined for it IIRC. Personally I think Italy joining the Euro was ill advised for them as a nation and for the Euro area overall. I am glad the UK never joined the Euro and would Never have supported it in the past or in alternative circumstances in the future as Monetary policy is such a diverse and heavy weapon when the shit hits the fan economically i.e. 2008!
In terms of the EU and its legislation,the UK has never deliberately broken the rules to my knowledge and has implemented the directives as they have been instigated. Sure environmental standards have been missed but is it really a bad thing forcing emitters of pollution to minimise the toxins being discharged into the environment?
The Germans are in a minority in the EU as are any other Nation state. The EU works by consensus. Germany gets dictated to as much as any other EU state if you look at it objectively from nationalistic perspectives. The EU is not perfect but neither is being outside it for trade purposes once you have locked into it as the UK has done for decades. It is alright saying it does not matter if your job, home, assets or relationships are not affected but we live in an increasingly sophisticated society where social disruption has an acute impact on the lives of many who do not have the means to negate any massive shock.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me genuinely wondering why they say it. This is three different eurocrats who have swiftly deleted or retracted what they said, nonetheless they did express it. Why? I see two likely answers:
1. They are in a Federalist, integrationist, Bruxellois bubble: they simply don't realise how badly they come across to ordinary voters, especially in places like Italy which have not prospered in the euro
2. They know exactly how they come across. They are beginning not to care. They see their Federal EU Empire is in sight, so they are angered by last-ditch attempts to halt it, and the anger flares into vision (anger which is then, reluctantly, hidden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
Either way, f*ck ‘em.
This sort of thing makes me want to vote for Brexit ten times all over again.
You want another 10 referendums?!
10 more, 10 more wins for leave. Maybe you remainers will finally accept the result!
I accept the result, always have. Just don't expect me to be happy or quiet about the almighty fuck-up that is resulting from that result.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me genuinely wondering why they say it. This is three different eurocrats who have swiftly deleted or retracted what they said, nonetheless they did express it. Why? I see two likely answers:
1. They are in a Federalist, integrationist, Bruxellois bubble: they simply don't realise how badly they come across to ordinary voters, especially in places like Italy which have not prospered in the euro
2. They know exactly how they come across. They are beginning not to care. They see their Federal EU Empire is in sight, so they are angered by last-ditch attempts to halt it, and the anger flares into vision (anger which is then, reluctantly, hidden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
It's odd. A federal Europe could be to Italy's advantage. We've talked a lot on here about needing money flow from richer to poor parts of the currency union. So in that respect the people who should be worried by the Brussels bureaucrats.
A federal Europe that helps the likes of Italy will never exist. Germans will never vote for hundreds of billions of real tax money to be spent on welfare and infrastructure in southern and eastern Europe.
I'm keen to hear Benpointer's view. From the train-driver's perspective.
I think you may be crediting me with skills and experience I do not posses - I wouldn't even know where to find the steering wheel in a train cab.
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
Somehow those are evil things (I'd not seen them before so thanks). I rather like railways, and something that uses railways to destroy them isn't playing the game.
I seem to recall footage from the World at War episode on the Holocaust of the retreating Germans using these to rip up the rail lines to the extermination camps, presumably in a vain attempt at a cover up.
Would have thought it was more likely to slow down the advance on the camps to give them more time to destroy them. Railway ploughs don't dismantle a railway, only leave it unusable.
Call me a bloody minded pedant, but I just checked the WaW Holocaust episode and it shows this towards the end. Of course they may be incorrect, but perhaps logic wasn't a primary element of the Holocaust at any point of its horrible existence.
I'm not disputing it happened, just doubtful whether the reason you offered for it met the case. From that point of view, I demand the right to be PB's premier bloody-minded pedant
'Twas World at War that offered the reason, and since I think it's a bona fide work of art, I accepted it!
Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.
They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.
Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.
We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.
I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.
Well, I was beginning to doubt my Brexit vote (not for the first time) until Italy came along, and a Germans eurocrat warned the Italians the markets would teach them what was the "right" way to vote, a German MEP said the Troika would "march on Rome" if Italy tried anything remotely eurosceptic, and Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
At that point the hard Brexit steel re-entered my soul. Clearly you have no soul if you don't find this euro-reich shit slightly chilling.
It saddens me deeply, but we must Leave. It will cost us, but maybe our sacrifice will help Europe in the end.
I offer you this quote from William Pitt the Younger: “England has saved herself by her exertions, and will, as I trust, save Europe by her example.”
The problem with the EU/Euro is that it gives the Italians and the Greeks someone to blame for problems that are largely of their own making. I often wonder who our politicians are going to blame for things when they can no longer hide behind the EU and blame everything on Brussels
Yeah - I know. Just was fun. My brother actually is a train driver on the underground. He rather likes it, but he'll perhaps retire before the full automation arrives. He has some great tales - in extreme times they potentially use explosives to blow up railway track to prevent even greater dangers for example.
???
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
Somehow those are evil things (I'd not seen them before so thanks). I rather like railways, and something that uses railways to destroy them isn't playing the game.
I seem to recall footage from the World at War episode on the Holocaust of the retreating Germans using these to rip up the rail lines to the extermination camps, presumably in a vain attempt at a cover up.
Would have thought it was more likely to slow down the advance on the camps to give them more time to destroy them. Railway ploughs don't dismantle a railway, only leave it unusable.
Call me a bloody minded pedant, but I just checked the WaW Holocaust episode and it shows this towards the end. Of course they may be incorrect, but perhaps logic wasn't a primary element of the Holocaust at any point of its horrible existence.
I'm not disputing it happened, just doubtful whether the reason you offered for it met the case. From that point of view, I demand the right to be PB's premier bloody-minded pedant
'Twas World at War that offered the reason, and since I think it's a bona fide work of art, I accepted it!
World at War is an absolute TV masterpiece, about which I'd have said they don't make them like that any more... until I watched Ken Burns' The Vietnam War earlier this year.
VISA payment issue down to failed hardware apparently... Expect to see some big budget IT resilience projects kicking off at VISA soon.
PS Can't blame the Russians this time, it seems.
On a separate matter I have been trying to make a payment this evening from my M&S current account to pay off my M&S bank (MasterCard) credit card - but it keeps telling me the recipient cannot accept the funds at this time. The payer and recipient are of course the same bank!
Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.
They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.
Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.
We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.
I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.
Well, I was beginning to doubt my Brexit vote (not for the first time) until Italy came along, and a Germans eurocrat warned the Italians the markets would teach them what was the "right" way to vote, a German MEP said the Troika would "march on Rome" if Italy tried anything remotely eurosceptic, and Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
At that point the hard Brexit steel re-entered my soul. Clearly you have no soul if you don't find this euro-reich shit slightly chilling.
It saddens me deeply, but we must Leave. It will cost us, but maybe our sacrifice will help Europe in the end.
I offer you this quote from William Pitt the Younger: “England has saved herself by her exertions, and will, as I trust, save Europe by her example.”
The problem with the EU/Euro is that it gives the Italians and the Greeks someone to blame for problems that are largely of their own making. I often wonder who our politicians are going to blame for things when they can no longer hide behind the EU and blame everything on Brussels
No, there is and has always been a wealth gap between southern and northern Europe.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
It's odd. A federal Europe could be to Italy's advantage. We've talked a lot on here about needing money flow from richer to poor parts of the currency union. So in that respect the people who should be worried by the Brussels bureaucrats.
A very good point. I suspect a lot of Italians would happily vote for a truly Federal Europe. Instead, what they see is a dubious EU single currency a which seems designed to benefit German exporters, at the expense of the Italians, north AND south. Meanwhile EU democracy is reduced to a parliament which grows more puissant even as electoral participation sinks far below 50% Europe-wide.
Yeah, If Brexit goes ahead next March we will still be paying the EU and have no representation. A masterstroke!
On a parting note you seem to be conflating the Eurozone and its turmoil with a positive feedback loop on why UK membership of the EU is a bad thing. The two issues are entirely distinct and unrelated. Italy's macroeconomic problems and inability to ease monetary policy further or have an expansionary fiscal policy is nothing to do with the EU and its relationship with the UK.
You seem to think the UK never achieved anything in the EU or EEC before but forget Thatcher's crowning achievement of the Single Market. Just think how the UK has enriched itself in the field of Financial Services amongst many of the other premier league services we export to Europe including legal, management consultancy and the like. So, you think we should jeopardise all of this because the British media have indoctrinated us into thinking somehow we don't get our fair share? You might like your Brexit vote but I think it monumentally stupid as each week the Brexiteers negotiating our withdrawal get butt fucked on every issue.
"Call me a bloody minded pedant, but I just checked the WaW Holocaust episode and it shows this towards the end. Of course they may be incorrect, but perhaps logic wasn't a primary element of the Holocaust at any point of its horrible existence."
****
A sad but intriguing debate.
Some historians have posited the notion that Hitler knew the Holocaust was a gamble, and would weaken the German war effort, threatening defeat. But his overriding cause was anti-Semitism, even more than German nationalism - and he wanted access to the Jewry of Eastern Europe and Russia, so as to kill them - therefore he risked Barbarossa (and in the end Gotterdammerung).
As we all know, he succeeded in killing Eastern Europe's Jews, but he failed in making Germany the global hegemon, and the invasion of Russia was crucial in all that.
For what it is worth, Hitler's final message, which is suffused with Jew-hatred, and contemptuous of the Germany that "failed" him, is quite supportive of this theory.
I think for the 'pure' antisemite their cause is entirely logical, and that Hitler believed that cleansing German industry, science, banking, literature, music etc of Jews would make Germany stronger/the strongest. As you imply his final will is full of self exculpating rage that he was wrong about this.
I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, and though I knew about the small brass plates commemorating individual Jews at their last place of residence before being disappeared, it fair takes your breath away when you see your first one. There were around 70 in the streets round our hotel.
Juncker said Italians should simply "work harder, and be less corrupt" and then retracted this and deleted the video and denied he'd ever said it, even though we all know he did.
If I were Italian hearing those remarks, I would feel as though I had just been lectured by Nicholas Maduro on the importance of running a sound monetary policy.
Some of the insane, Fuck Italy discourse coming from Brussels is so off-the-dial it's got me gedden away, when their advisors look at social media)
Genuinely don't know which is the correct answer.
Either way, f*ck ‘em.
This sort of thing makes me want to vote for Brexit ten times all over again.
You want another 10 referendums?!
10 more, 10 more wins for leave. Maybe you remainers will finally accept the result!
I accept the result, always have. Just don't expect me to be happy or quiet about the almighty fuck-up that is resulting from that result.
I feel and share your pain. I have had grave doubts about Brexit in recent days....
But then, of course, the reason Brexit is proving so painful and demented is that fucking stupid Article 50, which did not exist until we signed the EU Constitution (alias the Lisbon Treaty), a Constitution on which we were promised a vote (by both major parties) and which we would doubtlessly have voted down. However, europhiles on both sides (e.g. Nick Palmer XMP, who literally came on here to chortle, when he voted through the Treaty, sans plebiscite) conspired to deny us a voice. Thus they are reaping what they sowed.
And this could all have been so easily avoided. If we had been given our democratic rights, earlier!
Didn't happen. We were failed by an entire generation of effete europhile wankers.
And now we must deal with what we have. And we must respect the largest vote in British democratic history. And we must Leave.
I've examined my conscience (and my damaged finances) and concluded that, despite all the pain and wankiness, if we had another referendum on the same terms, I would very very reluctantly vote the same way once again: OUT.
Hennig Wehn got it spot on on HIGNFY this evening... if we had another in/out referendum the result would probably be the same, because people don't like to admit they were wrong (either way).
But we have been shamefully misled by the Leave campaigners (e.g. see the Davis quote in the thread header) and then woefully let down by the Government who, it appears, couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag.
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gab_(social_network)
I'm not surprised Apple blocked the Gab app as they are rather careful about the content they allow into their walled garden, but it takes something special for Google Play to block the app as well.
5 years ago she was merely a bit odd.
Instead, today is the worst yet.
So, it may be a contributing, or even major factor, but plucky Northern Rail is not exactly training up drivers at any speed, nor are the trained ones covering themselves in glory.
The more cynical might suspect it is a bit more complicated than the dead-hand of the State thwarting an efficient enterprise.
https://twitter.com/Digbylj/status/1001951256628420609
https://twitter.com/Digbylj/status/1001951260449411073
As an example of the problem this causes (all AIUI): at the start of the new timetable, drivers were given new depots to work from, and this meant some had to travel by train to their workplace. Any that had to travel to their new depot by trains that were cancelled or delayed, caused knock-on delays as they were either late for, or could not get into, work to drive trains...
Besides (again AIUI, and there are several posters on here with insider knowledge), a problem is that a few of the new services are supposed to be operated with 'new' electric trains; except NR's failure to complete upgrades in time means they cannot run. It's hard to train drivers on trains that cannot operate.
It is indeed complex, and I have never claimed that Northern (and especially GTR) are blameless. However the root cause of the problems lie with failings within NR and the DfT.
And BTW, Grayling ought to accept that his department have f***ed up.
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/thameslink-the-musical-act-4-scene-3-the-grayling-letter/
I wish things had been different in the negotiations but the UK has screwed up and it is the leadership, in collective cabinet responsibility who have made a mess of this.
We look like we are going to get a worse deal than the one we had. The argument of the Brexiteers, that trade will continue what ever the outcome is a double edged sword. Maybe the Germans to cite his example are extoling the virtue of his argument in reverse? I think it is utter madness and Boris should act like a leader and say we tried the re-negotiation route but the deal was not as good as the one we had, so should just stay on the original terms. Several governments from the 1980s onward have fashioned from within a community of co-operating economic interests to mutual benefit. Remember Thatcher was a key advocate of the single market and various tweaks since have built on those foundations.
America and the rest of the world are not going to ride to the rescue, Brexit shows populism does not work and the US are heading for the same calamitous precipice through different pressures.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladbroke_Grove_rail_crash
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Fitzwarren_rail_crash_(1940)
And that's without even looking up a list.
That being said, thank you for pointing them out to me. I now know that Valmet makes some Mercedes A Class and GLC Class cars for Daimler.
If drivers weren't trained in time (and, as you say it takes a while, so could not have been entirely unforeseen), and upgrades hadn't been completed (again not exactly Breaking News), meaning some services could not run, why did they blithely include them with the new timetable?
If drivers couldn't get to depots, are there no taxis?
Why is the situation worsening, rather than improving, after 13 days to iron out at least some of the issues?
Grayling should certainly accept he has made a pig's ear of all this.
He may have a point about Network Rail, and the Unions responsibility in this, but he is the Transport Minister after all.
That being said, part two, Mercedes already makes the GLC in the US, and I don't reckon the market for the A Class is that big over here...
http://www.traindriver.org/route-learning.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_knowledge_(rail)
IANATD.
But what on earth did she say to make Twitter ban her? Isn't it full of loudmouths abusing each other without sanction?
Hard Brexit would beat CUSMFFOM.
If it were three-way (which it won't be), Hard Brexit would beat both CUSMFFOM and Remain.
And while you're at it, can you let me know what this week's winning lottery number are please?
Well actually before that, but working by October!
The rail timetables are usually agreed three months in advance, and the major timetable change of the year is in May, in time for summer. This gives the operators three months to prepare and passengers plenty of notice of changes.
This year's timetable change is massive, especially for GTR who are starting to take advantage of the new Thameslink infrastructure and new trains - it has been claimed it is the biggest set if timetable changes since nationalisation (yes, that's seventy years). And it is just the start of a whole series of changes over the next few years.
Unfortunately, the new timetables relies on NR completing infrastructure enhancements, such as the electrification of some northern routes or Thameslink works. Thameslink's timetable in particular depends on a very ambitious number of trains through the core of the network.
These works were not completed in time, meaning that the timetabling team - apparently part of NR - had to replan for the infrastructure that was not complete. This meant that some operators were only given their final timetables a week - or even a few days - before the change. And even then NR did not complete some of the work in time. This meant the operators were desperately having to catch up in terms of training.
The DfT's role is to run the process, amongst other things, and they've utterly failed in that. And yes, Grayling's essentially in charge. They're particularly to blame in the case of GTR's woes, as they specified the minimum number of trains required to operate the service and specified too low a number of drivers in the franchise. They should also be talking to all stakeholders to ensure the process runs smoothly.
(TBC)
And to get back to how I started on this topic: this would have happened with nationalised operators.
It's an absolute bloody mess, but anyone blindly blaming the operators is wrong. Whilst everyone shares the blame, from what I know at the moment the lion's share would have to go on NR and the DfT.
Now, if the UK had a system like the US does for Canadians, where you need a sponsoring company before a work permit is issued, then that *might* be enough. It would certainly restrict the number of speculative and low skilled economic migrants.
As far as sovereignty, the ECJ would only have jurisdiction over single market issues, not over things like votes for prisoners. So, again, it might work.
I think - however - that if were to do this, then it would probably need to be time limited, so that if it wasn't acceptable to the UK population, then we could move on from it in a reasonable fashion.
As an aside, a wholesale redesign of Housing Benefit (aka the greatest buy to let subsidy in the world) would be a good start.
I only hope my answers are correct!
(HIMFISI)
Given that the EU seem determined to offer the binary choice of the Irish Sea border or no deal, then its looking increasingly like no deal.
As I always say, I hope that the adults are working through the issues behind the scenes.
"Our driver could have run from his seat and dashed to the next carriage, where he might well have been safe,' said Sir Richard. "Instead, he tried to steer the train to safety. "
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/train-crash-it-could-have-been-sabotage-7274004.html
Which means they’re SOL if the infrastructure to run the new trains isn’t ready, as none of the drivers will know the routes. Even if they’d worked similar routes in other types of train previously, the infrastructure changes will mean the route needs relearning and revalidating, the drivers won’t be ‘current’ on the trains or the routes if they’ve not been down them for a while etc.
It can very quickly snowball, even before problems like getting drivers to depots to pick up trains in the morning.
I think you might be confused by detonators, which can be placed behind a train to protect it. An oncoming train hits them, they explode, and the driver of the oncoming train hears them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator_(railway)#In_the_United_Kingdom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2neuHr4bwI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_plough
The only other option - which so far as I know only Lord Lawson has suggested - is for the ROI to leave the EU. I don't know whether to be impressed by the honesty or appalled at the impertinence.
https://tinyurl.com/y8kmsh3y/
https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1002605948777652225?s=19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agznZBiK_Bs
Have Tesla's recent woes with Autopilot given you pause for thought? Amongst other problem, the company this is supposed to be bringing driverless cars to the masses cannot even get their cars to brake reliably ...
But Nigeria is rapidly growing. It is projected to be the 3rd most populous country in the world, surpassing the USA by 2050. Africa is the young continent, so a massive market for this sort of stuff.
It must be really brave representing a London seat and backing calls for a second referendum - sorry second 'people's vote' cos they didn't like the result of the first 'people's vote'.
This sort of thing makes me want to vote for Brexit ten times all over again.
Nobody forced Italy to join the Euro or the EU or the EEC. They joined and they knew the rules, they have in the past broken the rules and been fined for it IIRC. Personally I think Italy joining the Euro was ill advised for them as a nation and for the Euro area overall. I am glad the UK never joined the Euro and would Never have supported it in the past or in alternative circumstances in the future as Monetary policy is such a diverse and heavy weapon when the shit hits the fan economically i.e. 2008!
In terms of the EU and its legislation,the UK has never deliberately broken the rules to my knowledge and has implemented the directives as they have been instigated. Sure environmental standards have been missed but is it really a bad thing forcing emitters of pollution to minimise the toxins being discharged into the environment?
The Germans are in a minority in the EU as are any other Nation state. The EU works by consensus. Germany gets dictated to as much as any other EU state if you look at it objectively from nationalistic perspectives. The EU is not perfect but neither is being outside it for trade purposes once you have locked into it as the UK has done for decades. It is alright saying it does not matter if your job, home, assets or relationships are not affected but we live in an increasingly sophisticated society where social disruption has an acute impact on the lives of many who do not have the means to negate any massive shock.
PS Can't blame the Russians this time, it seems.
Five hours after an initial statement, the company said its payment systems were almost back to normal.
Very odd.
I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, and though I knew about the small brass plates commemorating individual Jews at their last place of residence before being disappeared, it fair takes your breath away when you see your first one. There were around 70 in the streets round our hotel.
But we have been shamefully misled by the Leave campaigners (e.g. see the Davis quote in the thread header) and then woefully let down by the Government who, it appears, couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag.