Just seen the Telegraph front page, on which Corbyn apparently has called for Ireland to be united. Hmm, frankly. Reminds me of that buffoon (his name escapes me, alas) from Labour who kept wibbling about giving Gibraltar to Spain.
Peter Hain? (He's also the one who called Lisbon a 'tidying up exercise,' so I was a bit surprised to see the claim on a previous thread that the Labour minister in question had subsequently been convicted of fraud.)
The SQA has once again covered itself in glory by giving a source piece which got the date of death of Mary Queen of Scots wrong by 20 years in the National 5 this year, claiming it happened in 1567. Children (at least those who noticed) were allegedly deeply traumatised which may say even more about how their educational experience is preparing them for life. It seems incredible to me that this sort of thing is not picked up.
You're joking, surely? I mean if even Wikipedia can get that right...
At least however they probably have marking criteria. Ours is still provisional and the exam is a week on Monday.
I think I know what happened actually. Google shows the first paragraph of her Wiki entry, which says she 'reigned over Scotland' until 24th July 1567. Which is of course true. But some idiot has taken the dates of her reign to be coterminous with her life, whereas actually in a line underneath it correctly gives the date of her death as February 1587.
But my goodness, what an error. That cannot be the examiner, it must be a clerk of some description, but to fail to pick it up in proof is just extraordinary.
Mr. Doethur/Mr. L, that's the idiot I was thinking of!
Thanks. For some reason I kept thinking of Peter Hague/Haig, but I knew that was wrong.
My favourite Peter Hain moment was when, on being challenged about Wales' abject performance in just about every measure compared to England, he snapped that it was much better off compared to Rwanda and many other places.
It's a bit worrying when the only country your politicians can measure you against had a civil war and genocide less than 15 years before!
I think I know what happened actually. Google shows the first paragraph of her Wiki entry, which says she 'reigned over Scotland' until 24th July 1567. Which is of course true. But some idiot has taken the dates of her reign to be coterminous with her life, whereas actually in a line underneath it correctly gives the date of her death as February 1587.
But my goodness, what an error. That cannot be the examiner, it must be a clerk of some description, but to fail to pick it up in proof is just extraordinary.
That's a painfully plausible explanation. I am not sure if this reflects SNP policy that once you go furth of Scotland you are a non person. It seems a missed opportunity for yet another grievance.
No it wasn't. The bill was never 100bn; this was just thrown out there to make the British feel better about the eventual climbdown.
The UK agreed to pay EVERYTHING that the EU asked for
I really don't know if you are just ignorant and making shit up, or actually mendacious.
I'm going to assume the former.
Did the EU ever think it would get €100bn plus transition payments? No.
But everything the EU demanded, and the rational, is all in the public domain. I also have pretty good inside knowledge of what happened. The EU was engaged in anchoring, but David Davis held firm on a large number of issues:
- we ended up with no contingent liabilities associated with Ireland and Ukraine - we ended up less than a fifth of what was asked for with regard to post 2020/21 'commitments' - pensions numbers were based around our (sensible) discount rate, and not their one
Given we asked for a transition period, the real bill was c. £20bn - which is barely more than our share of the net asset deficit of the EU (€18bn). David Davis did a pretty good job.
Davis has been underestimated by the left and the EU since taking on the role.
He was described to me as "the only adult in the room"* in a meeting between him, Johnson, Fox, and Hammond.
Given he claimed in the same discussion to have (I think) 1100 civil servants working on the two plans, that's rather odd....
Indeed, but that factor of 20 would actually bring the costs down into the same region as what I'm quite sure the Swiss customs facilitation are. About 0.05% of GDP. If the EU also insists on collecting customs duty for imports that go via the EU it will be another 0.05% of GDP so a total cost of about £2bn per year.
No it wasn't. The bill was never 100bn; this was just thrown out there to make the British feel better about the eventual climbdown.
The UK agreed to pay EVERYTHING that the EU asked for
I really don't know if you are just ignorant and making shit up, or actually mendacious.
I'm going to assume the former.
Did the EU ever think it would get €100bn plus transition payments? No.
But everything the EU demanded, and the rational, is all in the public domain. I also have pretty good inside knowledge of what happened. The EU was engaged in anchoring, but David Davis held firm on a large number of issues:
- we ended up with no contingent liabilities associated with Ireland and Ukraine - we ended up less than a fifth of what was asked for with regard to post 2020/21 'commitments' - pensions numbers were based around our (sensible) discount rate, and not their one
Given we asked for a transition period, the real bill was c. £20bn - which is barely more than our share of the net asset deficit of the EU (€18bn). David Davis did a pretty good job.
Davis has been underestimated by the left and the EU since taking on the role.
He was described to me as "the only adult in the room"* in a meeting between him, Johnson, Fox, and Hammond.
Admittedly a low bar.
As the only adult in the room is a saloon bar braggart, it does not bode well!
On topic: excellent article, good to see the idea of strategic dithering getting currency, from my viewpoint Theresa is playing a blinder at the moment but, my Lord, what a way to have to go about things.
The ERG doesn't even nearly have the votes to topple Theresa within the party, even if they might eventually pull her into a confidence vote (that she should win) when there is no more to lose.
Within parliament may be different if Labour are whipped effectively to vote against whatever comes onto the table. This is May's second challenge, getting enough opposition remainy moderates onside with her eventual version of Hard Bino (Hard Bino is one where points 1-10 say we are leaving everything, but 10 (a) 3 (iii) and its fellow sublevel paragraphs make clear that many things are in name only). For that they need to choose between no deal Brexit and GE/ possible Corbyn Vs Hard Bino and no GE.
That should not be beyond the wit of woman, there should be enough tail end of career Labour moderates to line up behind the vote. I don't know when and how she will boil the remain centrist frog, but I suspect holding firm that the vote will be between the deal and WTO (and not entertaining a second referendum) will be a part of it.
Morning all I see our ex-pat PB Brexiters are fighting like cats in a sack over what exactly they passionately voted for.
The one thing we can be sure of is that whatever transpires by way of Brexit will turn out to be something that mysteriously no-one will say that they actually voted for.
This article makes the case that while a national rail monopoly is not possible under EU rules, it would be possible to, for instance, have a state-owned company for track and one for trains, as in Spain or the Netherlands. Other options for publicly run railways also available.
Yes, splitting the operators and infrastructure, yet having both nationalised, is fine - as has always been known. Unfortunately that structure may not quite gain the advantages the EU wanted, which is exactly why SNCF and DB squealed when the EU tried to go further.
Although quite why you'd want to renationalise railway services, when the part of the current network that is failing is nationalised, is another question.
(It's also fairly clear that the dead hand of the DfT have a great deal to answer for NR's and the railway's travails. Witness the ludicrous and disastrous IEP trains...)
The main current problems with the railways lie not with the privatised operators, but with the nationalised sections and the DfT. Quite why people want to extend control to those organisations is mind-boggling. Well, it isn't really: its down to broken ideological dogma.
Just seen the Telegraph front page, on which Corbyn apparently has called for Ireland to be united. Hmm, frankly. Reminds me of that buffoon (his name escapes me, alas) from Labour who kept wibbling about giving Gibraltar to Spain.
Peter Hain? (He's also the one who called Lisbon a 'tidying up exercise,' so I was a bit surprised to see the claim on a previous thread that the Labour minister in question had subsequently been convicted of fraud.)
The SQA has once again covered itself in glory by giving a source piece which got the date of death of Mary Queen of Scots wrong by 20 years in the National 5 this year, claiming it happened in 1567. Children (at least those who noticed) were allegedly deeply traumatised which may say even more about how their educational experience is preparing them for life. It seems incredible to me that this sort of thing is not picked up.
You're joking, surely? I mean if even Wikipedia can get that right...
At least however they probably have marking criteria. Ours is still provisional and the exam is a week on Monday.
The Scottish government wants to be judged on its record on education so it was fitting that it was the first big theme to be addressed by the first minister when she delivered her programme for government.
Education, Ms Sturgeon claims, is the government's number one priority.
The £20 billion a year cost to British industry quoted yesterday for conformance to Max Fac, excluding actual customs duties is based on an average processing cost of £37 per consignment. KPMG came up with an estimated processing cost of €78 to €128 per shipment for the Dutch government. So the total cost could be a lot higher than €20 billion a year.
IFS and Health Foundation say the NHS and social care need an increase of 4% in funds each year to be funded by a rise of 3p in the £ in income tax, VAT and national insurance as well as higher property and business taxes
Start of a thread, next tweet indicates the HMRC guess is 5%, which, compared to 0.1%, just looks in the wrong ball park. Later cites a WTO suggestion of 0.7%.
No actually he has not said that, he just said he would need to align with some of the single market rules and regulations not actually remain a member of it which if we remained worse after years of negotiation
You are deluding yourself. For the CU to solve the NI border the way the EU wants, we would have to abide by ALL the SM regulations - otherwise there would still need to be border checks according to the EU. Which will mean:
1. Ongoing contributions to Brussels - against May's red line 2. ECJ jurisdiction - against May's red line 3. FOM (dressed up as something else - shall we use the term 'work permits'?) - against May's red line.
I know that you are a Tory and thus used to selling the country down the river on Europe - Heath, Maastricht, Lisbon Treaty non-referendum, Cameron's fake 're-negotiation' and now Brexit. But just be honest about what you are doing rather than pretending that you are in any way trying to carry out the referendum result.
May has always been clear she would replace FoM with work permits so there is no breaching of her red lines there. The referendum result to Leave the EU is also being carried out.
Yes I am a Tory, I am not UKIP, if people want ultra hard Brexit ie out of the Customs Union, out of the Single Market, no regulatory alignment and a hard border in Ireland and no FTA and WTO terms they can still vote for them
We did vote for it. That was the Vote Leave manifesto.
The Vote Leave manifesto was not WTO terms and the general election result was quite clear on that too
The Vote Leave manifesto, and that of your own party, was full control of our borders, full control of our trade policy and full control of our laws. That means leaving the SM and CU and having the ability to make our own trade rules and regulations.
Both groups wanted an FTA with the EU if possible on these terms. If not possible both groups discussed WTO as the fallback.
None of this is going to be delivered by the Tories.
Which May is still aiming to deliver including leaving the single market and ending free movement, a Customs Partnership that enables new trade deals and a FTA but if Parliament votes to stay in the Customs Union thanks to Labour, the LDs, the SNP and Tory rebels from Remain seats there is not much she can do about it as she lacks an overall majority. May would probably have needed a landslide of at least 100 seats last June to guarantee a hard Brexit.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification.
No actually he has not said that, he just said he would need to align with some of the single market rules and regulations not actually remain a member of it which if we remained worse after years of negotiation
You are deluding yourself. For the CU to solve the NI border the way the EU wants, we would have to abide by ALL the SM regulations - otherwise there would still need to be border checks according to the EU. Which will mean:
1. Ongoing contributions to Brussels - against May's red line 2. ECJ jurisdiction - against May's red line 3. FOM (dressed up as something else - shall we use the term 'work permits'?) - against May's red line.
I know that you are a Tory and thus used to selling the country down the river on Europe - Heath, Maastricht, Lisbon Treaty non-referendum, Cameron's fake 're-negotiation' and now Brexit. But just be honest about what you are doing rather than pretending that you are in any way trying to carry out the referendum result.
May has always been clear she would replace FoM with work permits so there is no breaching of her red lines there. The referendum result to Leave the EU is also being carried out.
Yes I am a Tory, I am not UKIP, if people want ultra hard Brexit ie out of the Customs Union, out of the Single Market, no regulatory alignment and a hard border in Ireland and no FTA and WTO terms they can still vote for them
We did vote for it. That was the Vote Leave manifesto.
The Vote Leave manifesto was not WTO terms and the general election result was quite clear on that too
The Vote Leave manifesto, and that of your own party, was full control of our borders, full control of our trade policy and full control of our laws. That means leaving the SM and CU and having the ability to make our own trade rules and regulations.
Both groups wanted an FTA with the EU if possible on these terms. If not possible both groups discussed WTO as the fallback.
None of this is going to be delivered by the Tories.
Which May is still aiming to deliver including a Customs Partnership that enables new trade deals and a FTA but if Parliament votes to stay in the Customs Union thanks to Labour, the LDs, the SNP and Tory rebels from Remain seats there is not much she can do about it as she lacks an overall majority. May would probably have needed a landslide of at least 100 seats last June to guarantee a hard Brexit.
Yes as @Richard_Nabavi points out often and wisely, the voters chose this; we refused to give May the type of majority she needed for any type of Brexit in particular.
Start of a thread, next tweet indicates the HMRC guess is 5%, which, compared to 0.1%, just looks in the wrong ball park. Later cites a WTO suggestion of 0.7%.
Switzerland has a very different level of alignment with the single market. The whole point is that the UK government has rejected what Switzerland has.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
Current Temporarily Reintroduced Border Controls
Temporarily reintroduced border controls in the context of foreseeable events:
France (30 April 2018 – 30 October 2018) persistent terrorist threat; all internal borders Austria (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; land borders with Hungary and with Slovenia; Germany (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; land border with Austria; Denmark (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; all internal borders with an initial focus on the land border with Germany and ports with connection to Germany; Sweden (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) continuous serious threat to public policy and internal security; all internal borders; Norway (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; all internal borders with an initial focus on ferry connections with DK, DE and SE;
As they supposedly used to say in Liverpool, "Calm down, calm down", you Remainers.
Most people just want May to get on with it, but the EU negotiates exceedingly slowly and often backtracks. That's the curse of a bureaucracy. Nothing concrete will emerge until there is a deadline they cannot ignore, and even then it's likely to be a fudge.
Best go outside for a deep breath and put things in perspective. You might be dead tomorrow.
The ERG doesn't even nearly have the votes to topple Theresa within the party, even if they might eventually pull her into a confidence vote (that she should win) when there is no more to lose.
Frankly, I am amazed that a few noise-makers have held the Tories to ransom for years. Personally I would have told them to clear off and join UKIP or form their own party. A few public "executions" pour encourager les autres and I feel that the problem would have been largely solved.
Start of a thread, next tweet indicates the HMRC guess is 5%, which, compared to 0.1%, just looks in the wrong ball park. Later cites a WTO suggestion of 0.7%.
I can't read PowerPoint presentations on this device. Nevertheless an estimated customs processing cost of £2.50 per consignment is ridiculously low.
PS it's possible Hugh Bennett is talking only about the actual duties, not the processing costs. He's pretty vague.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
Get a grip man, however bad a decision people may think it was when you wax lyrical about the horror of it like that it just comes across as silly, and thus ineffective in terms of criticism. The next generation will have the opportunity to undo it if they want, after all we keep being told how easy it would be to remain, and if the sun falls from the sky and society becomes mad max style rejoining will be damn easy too.
Some private school pupils have bursaries and scholarships as their parents would otherwise not have afforded the fees
Yes, but I think its a bit of a stretch to call them 'disadvantaged'....
Not necessarily it is not unknown for even some major private schools now to have boarders whose parents live on council estates on full scholarships if they pass the scholarship exam or have exceptional sporting or musical or dramatic talent
Start of a thread, next tweet indicates the HMRC guess is 5%, which, compared to 0.1%, just looks in the wrong ball park. Later cites a WTO suggestion of 0.7%.
I can't read PowerPoint presentations on this device. Nevertheless an estimated customs processing cost of £2.50 per consignment is ridiculously low.
Maybe not if you are a de facto part of the single market, like Switzerland is.
No it wasn't. The bill was never 100bn; this was just thrown out there to make the British feel better about the eventual climbdown.
The UK agreed to pay EVERYTHING that the EU asked for
I really don't know if you are just ignorant and making shit up, or actually mendacious.
I'm going to assume the former.
Did the EU ever think it would get €100bn plus transition payments? No.
But everything the EU demanded, and the rational, is all in the public domain. I also have pretty good inside knowledge of what happened. The EU was engaged in anchoring, but David Davis held firm on a large number of issues:
- we ended up with no contingent liabilities associated with Ireland and Ukraine - we ended up less than a fifth of what was asked for with regard to post 2020/21 'commitments' - pensions numbers were based around our (sensible) discount rate, and not their one
Given we asked for a transition period, the real bill was c. £20bn - which is barely more than our share of the net asset deficit of the EU (€18bn). David Davis did a pretty good job.
That was perhaps the best bit of negotiating with the EU since Thatcher getting the Rebate in 1984.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
I wouldn't bother worrying about a soft border checks,the next hundred years could see our country heading towards a Bosnia type situation,lucky I won't be around to see it.
The £20 billion a year cost to British industry quoted yesterday for conformance to Max Fac, excluding actual customs duties is based on an average processing cost of £37 per consignment. KPMG came up with an estimated processing cost of €78 to €128 per shipment for the Dutch government. So the total cost could be a lot higher than €20 billion a year.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
Current Temporarily Reintroduced Border Controls
Temporarily reintroduced border controls in the context of foreseeable events:
France (30 April 2018 – 30 October 2018) persistent terrorist threat; all internal borders Austria (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; land borders with Hungary and with Slovenia; Germany (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; land border with Austria; Denmark (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; all internal borders with an initial focus on the land border with Germany and ports with connection to Germany; Sweden (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) continuous serious threat to public policy and internal security; all internal borders; Norway (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; all internal borders with an initial focus on ferry connections with DK, DE and SE;
The £20 billion a year cost to British industry quoted yesterday for conformance to Max Fac, excluding actual customs duties is based on an average processing cost of £37 per consignment. KPMG came up with an estimated processing cost of €78 to €128 per shipment for the Dutch government. So the total cost could be a lot higher than €20 billion a year.
Why can the Swiss do it for a fraction of that ?
Because they are a de facto member of the single market. If we took the Swiss route it would certainly make things a whole lot easier and cheaper.
Start of a thread, next tweet indicates the HMRC guess is 5%, which, compared to 0.1%, just looks in the wrong ball park. Later cites a WTO suggestion of 0.7%.
I can't read PowerPoint presentations on this device. Nevertheless an estimated customs processing cost of £2.50 per consignment is ridiculously low.
PS it's possible Hugh Bennett is talking only about the actual duties, not the processing costs. He's pretty vague.
I don't see why if things are done in bulk and efficiently. Not every consignment needs inspecting, for many the customs declaration ought to cost as much as a stamp.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
Get a grip man, however bad a decision people may think it was when you wax lyrical about the horror of it like that it just comes across as silly, and thus ineffective in terms of criticism. The next generation will have the opportunity to undo it if they want, after all we keep being told how easy it would be to remain, and if the sun falls from the sky and society becomes mad max style rejoining will be damn easy too.
Perhaps you haven't had the pleasure of being part of the single currency and shengen as most Europeans have? Or perhaps you have the sensitivity of John Redwood and Peter Bone?
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
The Boomers have a lot to answer for ...
What are 'Boomers'?
Baby-Boomers. Those born before 1960 who got
- Free university education - Affordable mortgages - Good pension provision - Benefited from massive house price inflation
May has deferred for as long as possible, and the Cabinet has not been able to form a consensus on this. Thus, she needs Parliament to vote one way or another. Probably she is “relaxed” about the outcome, she can live in, our out, of a customs union.
It does increasingly feels like the ERG - or perhaps Johnson - are preparing for a challenge, though.
And, come the parliamentary vote, if Corbyn smells blood, surely he’d take the opportunity to depose May, even if it means allowing a free vote on the single market? Deposing May is his quickest route to a Labour government.
If the price of the key to Number 10 is staying in the SM (at least agreeing to do so...) Jezza and John would jump at it.
Except it isn't as such a policy would keep free movement in place and see working class Labour Leave voters in key Midlands and Northern marginal seats abandon the party in droves
Maybe, Maybe not. Lets do it and see.
No ifs or buts about it, leaving free movement in place would see a significant number of Labour Leave seats in the Midlands and North fall to the Tories or even a revived UKIP and Corbyn knows it which is why while he is prepared to stay in the Customs Union he will not agree to stay in the Single Market. Not forgetting Corbyn is also ideologically opposed to the Single Market unlike the Customs Union as it will stop him pushing through the nationalisations he wants to undertake if he becomes PM
I have read this latter point in several places, yet if it is true, how have we
a) just renationalised the East Coast Mainline b) are building the largest construction project in Europe under public ownership (Crossrail) and c) have the world’s fifth largest employer within the public sector (the NHS)
This article makes the case that while a national rail monopoly is not possible under EU rules, it would be possible to, for instance, have a state-owned company for track and one for trains, as in Spain or the Netherlands. Other options for publicly run railways also available.
Funnily enough, I think this is one poll that actually makes sense. If it is accurate (and what polls are??) then the public is broadly right about which services should be in the public sector and which in the private sector.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
Get a grip man, however bad a decision people may think it was when you wax lyrical about the horror of it like that it just comes across as silly, and thus ineffective in terms of criticism. The next generation will have the opportunity to undo it if they want, after all we keep being told how easy it would be to remain, and if the sun falls from the sky and society becomes mad max style rejoining will be damn easy too.
Perhaps you haven't had the pleasure of being part of the single currency and shengen as most Europeans have? Or perhaps you have the sensitivity of John Redwood and Peter Bone?
On the contrary, I have great sympathy with people for whom the decision to leave has hit them hard, and as someone experiencing plenty of Bregret right now I am quite worried at how poorly things have gotten. I do not dismiss the concerns people have or even emotional toil.
But you've been essentially crying about the death of all culture and the end of civilization for 2 years now. Its hard to take that seriously. How much sensitivity is reasonable to expect in such a scenario? You are so over the top with it, in my view undermining the point you want to make.
So no, I don't think i have been particularly insensitive. I will grant you my phrasing was brusque, though I would hope others woukd accept not rude, but I while I also hope we are all civil and sensitive, I should hope most would agree that blunt dismissal of dramatically maudlin ruminations is hardly unreasonable, any more than puncturing an overly optimistic pronouncement.
If you want to be all dramatic, that's your choice. Am I obliged not to think you are overdoing it even for an arch Remainer? It is insensitive to think your chosen style is ineffective or unwarranted? It might be wrong but it's insensitive?
We did vote for it. That was the Vote Leave manifesto.
The Vote Leave manifesto was not WTO terms and the general election result was quite clear on that too
The Vote Leave manifesto, and that of your own party, was full control of our borders, full control of our trade policy and full control of our laws. That means leaving the SM and CU and having the ability to make our own trade rules and regulations.
Both groups wanted an FTA with the EU if possible on these terms. If not possible both groups discussed WTO as the fallback.
None of this is going to be delivered by the Tories.
Which May is still aiming to deliver including leaving the single market and ending free movement, a Customs Partnership that enables new trade deals and a FTA but if Parliament votes to stay in the Customs Union thanks to Labour, the LDs, the SNP and Tory rebels from Remain seats there is not much she can do about it as she lacks an overall majority. May would probably have needed a landslide of at least 100 seats last June to guarantee a hard Brexit.
It is not Parliament that is driving May - this is just another Tory excuse. The civil service have driven her agenda and the fact she is a Remainer and utterly gutless when negotiating.
Any sensible look at the Parliamentary arithmetic suggest it will be a lot easier for May to whip her Tory CU rebels to vote down the Lords amendments (which after all, is what was in her manifesto and they already voted it down once) than for her to somehow pass the Withdrawal Agreement bill if the ERG vote it down. Labour and SNP will oppose regardless (they are not going to take responsibility for the exit agreement) so how is May going to ever pass this bill if even a small number of the ERG vote it down, to say nothing of the DUP?
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
Life in the West is a paradise for anyone who is rich.
The ERG doesn't even nearly have the votes to topple Theresa within the party, even if they might eventually pull her into a confidence vote (that she should win) when there is no more to lose.
Frankly, I am amazed that a few noise-makers have held the Tories to ransom for years. Personally I would have told them to clear off and join UKIP or form their own party. A few public "executions" pour encourager les autres and I feel that the problem would have been largely solved.
Well, the Tories decided to take on their 'noise-makers' by calling their bluff and having an in/out referendum. Turned out they were the majority. Awkward that.
The £20 billion a year cost to British industry quoted yesterday for conformance to Max Fac, excluding actual customs duties is based on an average processing cost of £37 per consignment. KPMG came up with an estimated processing cost of €78 to €128 per shipment for the Dutch government. So the total cost could be a lot higher than €20 billion a year.
Why can the Swiss do it for a fraction of that ?
Maybe they don't. Are they talking about duties or total processing costs?
Edit. Switzerland is also I the single market and will avoid much of the conformance checks.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
Get a grip man, however bad a decision people may think it was when you wax lyrical about the horror of it like that it just comes across as silly, and thus ineffective in terms of criticism. The next generation will have the opportunity to undo it if they want, after all we keep being told how easy it would be to remain, and if the sun falls from the sky and society becomes mad max style rejoining will be damn easy too.
Perhaps you haven't had the pleasure of being part of the single currency and shengen as most Europeans have? Or perhaps you have the sensitivity of John Redwood and Peter Bone?
On the contrary, I have great sympathy with people for whom the decision to leave has hit them hard, and as someone experiencing plenty of Bregret right now I am quite worried at how poorly things have gotten. I do not dismiss the concerns people have or even emotional toil.
But you've been essentially crying about the death of all culture and the end of civilization for 2 years now. Its hard to take that seriously. How much sensitivity is reasonable to expect in such a scenario? You are so over the top with it, in my view undermining the point you want to make.
So no, I don't think i have been particularly insensitive. I will grant you my phrasing was brusque, though I would hope others woukd accept not rude, but I while I also hope we are all civil and sensitive, I should hope most would agree that blunt dismissal of dramatically maudlin ruminations is hardly unreasonable, any more than puncturing an overly optimistic pronouncement.
If you want to be all dramatic, that's your choice. Am I obliged not to think you are overdoing it even for an arch Remainer? It is insensitive to think your chosen style is ineffective or unwarranted? It might be wrong but it's insensitive?
FYI i woukd be happy to be in the single market so your seeming assumption of where my criticism was coming from appears to be wrong.
The £20 billion a year cost to British industry quoted yesterday for conformance to Max Fac, excluding actual customs duties is based on an average processing cost of £37 per consignment. KPMG came up with an estimated processing cost of €78 to €128 per shipment for the Dutch government. So the total cost could be a lot higher than €20 billion a year.
Why can the Swiss do it for a fraction of that ?
Because they are a de facto member of the single market. If we took the Swiss route it would certainly make things a whole lot easier and cheaper.
It is pretty easy to see lies, if you want to see them. HMRC say maxfac will cost an insane amount of money but the customs partnership, which everyone acknowledges will be insanely complex and bureaucratic (and internally was dismissed by the civil service last year for exactly this reason), suddenly costs nothing.
Need to be serious. The UK imports about twice the value of goods from the EU as Australia does in total. The total cost of the entire Australian department of Immigration and Border Control is GBP2.25bn, but this includes the whole immigration section as well. Also, Australia inspects for quarantine at the border in a very major way. Australia does not have regulatory alignment with anyone.
The idea that this will cost the UK 20bn is just laughable.
I was thinking yesterday as I travelled the thirty five minutes from Beaulieu through Monaco to Menton and accross the invisble border to the market at Ventimiglia what cultural vandalism the timidity of our politicians have wrought on us.
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
The Boomers have a lot to answer for ...
What are 'Boomers'?
Baby-Boomers. Those born before 1960 who got
- Free university education - Affordable mortgages - Good pension provision - Benefited from massive house price inflation
etc....
My parents didn't get a free university education.
"Life in the West is a paradise for anyone who is rich."
Exactly so.
These Boomers of whom people speak who had it all. I think the young ones mistake the well-off middle class for the majority.
They had mortgages, but we had council houses. We all had the risk of polio and tuberculosis, but they had foreign holidays (fiendishly expensive), fridges, carpets, passports, telly, washing machines, and sometimes for the very best - heating that sometimes kept you warm.
As I told the four Yorkshiremen, the modern generation don't know they're born. They run out of things to worry about so they invent a few.
Last note, but with all leaks from the Cabinet I'm surprised May doesn't tell them different things individually so she can easily determine who leaks what.
We did vote for it. That was the Vote Leave manifesto.
The Vote Leave manifesto was not WTO terms and the general election result was quite clear on that too
The Vote Leave manifesto, and that of your own party, was full control of our borders, full control of our trade policy and full control of our laws. That means leaving the SM and CU and having the ability to make our own trade rules and regulations.
Both groups wanted an FTA with the EU if possible on these terms. If not possible both groups discussed WTO as the fallback.
None of this is going to be delivered by the Tories.
Which May is still aiming to deliver including leaving the single market and ending free movement, a Customs Partnership that enables new trade deals and a FTA but if Parliament votes to stay in the Customs Union thanks to Labour, the LDs, the SNP and Tory rebels from Remain seats there is not much she can do about it as she lacks an overall majority. May would probably have needed a landslide of at least 100 seats last June to guarantee a hard Brexit.
It is not Parliament that is driving May - this is just another Tory excuse. The civil service have driven her agenda and the fact she is a Remainer and utterly gutless when negotiating.
Any sensible look at the Parliamentary arithmetic suggest it will be a lot easier for May to whip her Tory CU rebels to vote down the Lords amendments (which after all, is what was in her manifesto and they already voted it down once) than for her to somehow pass the Withdrawal Agreement bill if the ERG vote it down. Labour and SNP will oppose regardless (they are not going to take responsibility for the exit agreement) so how is May going to ever pass this bill if even a small number of the ERG vote it down, to say nothing of the DUP?
Corbyn is still committed to leaving the EU and the single market given over a third of his voters and most Labour seats voted Leave even if he wants to stay in a Customs Union
"Life in the West is a paradise for anyone who is rich."
Exactly so.
These Boomers of whom people speak who had it all. I think the young ones mistake the well-off middle class for the majority.
They had mortgages, but we had council houses. We all had the risk of polio and tuberculosis, but they had foreign holidays (fiendishly expensive), fridges, carpets, passports, telly, washing machines, and sometimes for the very best - heating that sometimes kept you warm.
As I told the four Yorkshiremen, the modern generation don't know they're born. They run out of things to worry about so they invent a few.
I think you are confusing the over 80s - who experienced war and rationing and real struggle - with those in their late 50s and 60s who really didn't,
No one said that generation all had it easy but it was possible to build a life and a secure future and retirement even on modest means. My father never earned the average London wage but could buy a 3 bed house in London on one wage with a 1.5 times salary mortgage. University education was Free, final salary pensions were the norm, you could walk out of a job and find another within a day.
I don't deny they worked hard but the fact my parents house is now worth more than 100 times what they paid for it in 1971 was down to luck and government and changing banking policies. He also got a final salary pension. An ordinary couple on two average wages would never be able to build the security they had today.
Yes there are more material things now - but the basics like a secure home you can rent or own for life and bring your family up in, a guaranteed income in retirement, and a secure job for life don't exist anymore for many. Material things are nice but they are far more valuable.
Comments
Bit like customs union itself!
At least however they probably have marking criteria. Ours is still provisional and the exam is a week on Monday.
Edit - shit, you're not. That's really, really poor:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/pupils-upset-after-exam-board-s-blunder-over-mary-queen-of-scots-1-4742945
Thanks. For some reason I kept thinking of Peter Hague/Haig, but I knew that was wrong.
But my goodness, what an error. That cannot be the examiner, it must be a clerk of some description, but to fail to pick it up in proof is just extraordinary.
It's a bit worrying when the only country your politicians can measure you against had a civil war and genocide less than 15 years before!
Still, happy days when Labour had mere dingbats in the Cabinet rather than socialists dominating the front bench.
Edited extra bit: sorry, people's vote*.
The ERG doesn't even nearly have the votes to topple Theresa within the party, even if they might eventually pull her into a confidence vote (that she should win) when there is no more to lose.
Within parliament may be different if Labour are whipped effectively to vote against whatever comes onto the table. This is May's second challenge, getting enough opposition remainy moderates onside with her eventual version of Hard Bino (Hard Bino is one where points 1-10 say we are leaving everything, but 10 (a) 3 (iii) and its fellow sublevel paragraphs make clear that many things are in name only). For that they need to choose between no deal Brexit and GE/ possible Corbyn Vs Hard Bino and no GE.
That should not be beyond the wit of woman, there should be enough tail end of career Labour moderates to line up behind the vote. I don't know when and how she will boil the remain centrist frog, but I suspect holding firm that the vote will be between the deal and WTO (and not entertaining a second referendum) will be a part of it.
Although quite why you'd want to renationalise railway services, when the part of the current network that is failing is nationalised, is another question.
(It's also fairly clear that the dead hand of the DfT have a great deal to answer for NR's and the railway's travails. Witness the ludicrous and disastrous IEP trains...)
The main current problems with the railways lie not with the privatised operators, but with the nationalised sections and the DfT. Quite why people want to extend control to those organisations is mind-boggling. Well, it isn't really: its down to broken ideological dogma.
Education, Ms Sturgeon claims, is the government's number one priority.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41164700
But no! Lets talk about IndyRef2.....out today, how Scotland can be like Singapore or Hong Kong!
https://twitter.com/AmandaFBelfast/status/999431743332671490
https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/999176814412156928
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-sixth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_Bill_2018_(Ireland)
I'd guess some will appear today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44230033
Mr. 43, on the other hand:
https://twitter.com/HughRBennett/status/999313848506159104
Start of a thread, next tweet indicates the HMRC guess is 5%, which, compared to 0.1%, just looks in the wrong ball park. Later cites a WTO suggestion of 0.7%.
https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/999549057331757056
Different language different feel a currency that works everywhere and no bureaucrats demanding passports or identification. It's a paradise.
The next generation are not going to forgive us
Temporarily reintroduced border controls in the context of foreseeable events:
France (30 April 2018 – 30 October 2018) persistent terrorist threat; all internal borders
Austria (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; land borders with Hungary and with Slovenia;
Germany (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; land border with Austria;
Denmark (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; all internal borders with an initial focus on the land border with Germany and ports with connection to Germany;
Sweden (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) continuous serious threat to public policy and internal security; all internal borders;
Norway (12 May 2018 – 11 November 2018) security situation in Europe and threats resulting from the continuous significant secondary movements; all internal borders with an initial focus on ferry connections with DK, DE and SE;
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en
As they supposedly used to say in Liverpool, "Calm down, calm down", you Remainers.
Most people just want May to get on with it, but the EU negotiates exceedingly slowly and often backtracks. That's the curse of a bureaucracy. Nothing concrete will emerge until there is a deadline they cannot ignore, and even then it's likely to be a fudge.
Best go outside for a deep breath and put things in perspective. You might be dead tomorrow.
PS it's possible Hugh Bennett is talking only about the actual duties, not the processing costs. He's pretty vague.
Possibly better than that even.
Refugees on the Pass of Death between Italy and France
On the path with young Eritrean refugees hiking from Italy to France along the Cote D'Azure.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/07/refugees-pass-death-italy-france-170726055256553.html
- Free university education
- Affordable mortgages
- Good pension provision
- Benefited from massive house price inflation
etc....
Funnily enough, I think this is one poll that actually makes sense. If it is accurate (and what polls are??) then the public is broadly right about which services should be in the public sector and which in the private sector.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/19/nationalisation-vs-privatisation-public-view/
But you've been essentially crying about the death of all culture and the end of civilization for 2 years now. Its hard to take that seriously. How much sensitivity is reasonable to expect in such a scenario? You are so over the top with it, in my view undermining the point you want to make.
So no, I don't think i have been particularly insensitive. I will grant you my phrasing was brusque, though I would hope others woukd accept not rude, but I while I also hope we are all civil and sensitive, I should hope most would agree that blunt dismissal of dramatically maudlin ruminations is hardly unreasonable, any more than puncturing an overly optimistic pronouncement.
If you want to be all dramatic, that's your choice. Am I obliged not to think you are overdoing it even for an arch Remainer? It is insensitive to think your chosen style is ineffective or unwarranted? It might be wrong but it's insensitive?
Any sensible look at the Parliamentary arithmetic suggest it will be a lot easier for May to whip her Tory CU rebels to vote down the Lords amendments (which after all, is what was in her manifesto and they already voted it down once) than for her to somehow pass the Withdrawal Agreement bill if the ERG vote it down. Labour and SNP will oppose regardless (they are not going to take responsibility for the exit agreement) so how is May going to ever pass this bill if even a small number of the ERG vote it down, to say nothing of the DUP?
Edit. Switzerland is also I the single market and will avoid much of the conformance checks.
But I have to get to work. Ciao
Need to be serious. The UK imports about twice the value of goods from the EU as Australia does in total. The total cost of the entire Australian department of Immigration and Border Control is GBP2.25bn, but this includes the whole immigration section as well. Also, Australia inspects for quarantine at the border in a very major way. Australia does not have regulatory alignment with anyone.
The idea that this will cost the UK 20bn is just laughable.
"Life in the West is a paradise for anyone who is rich."
Exactly so.
These Boomers of whom people speak who had it all. I think the young ones mistake the well-off middle class for the majority.
They had mortgages, but we had council houses. We all had the risk of polio and tuberculosis, but they had foreign holidays (fiendishly expensive), fridges, carpets, passports, telly, washing machines, and sometimes for the very best - heating that sometimes kept you warm.
As I told the four Yorkshiremen, the modern generation don't know they're born. They run out of things to worry about so they invent a few.
NEW THREAD
No one said that generation all had it easy but it was possible to build a life and a secure future and retirement even on modest means. My father never earned the average London wage but could buy a 3 bed house in London on one wage with a 1.5 times salary mortgage. University education was Free, final salary pensions were the norm, you could walk out of a job and find another within a day.
I don't deny they worked hard but the fact my parents house is now worth more than 100 times what they paid for it in 1971 was down to luck and government and changing banking policies. He also got a final salary pension. An ordinary couple on two average wages would never be able to build the security they had today.
Yes there are more material things now - but the basics like a secure home you can rent or own for life and bring your family up in, a guaranteed income in retirement, and a secure job for life don't exist anymore for many. Material things are nice but they are far more valuable.