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Comments

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Leave did:

    “While we’re in the EU, the UK can’t make trade deals on our own. This means we currently have no trade deals with key allies such as Australia, New Zealand or the USA - or important growing economies like India, China or Brazil. Instead of making a deal which is best for the UK, we have to wait for 27 other countries to agree it”

    https://fullfact.org/europe/vote-leave-facts-leaflet-trade/

    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    We know how things turned out:
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/986173457959391233
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU. EU trade deals being very slow and cumbersome, entrenching protectionism rather than encouraging more trade, and they can't even complete their own single market in services, let alone negotiate one with others.
    Each of those sentences are classic Leaver myths.

    As we have painfully discovered, the EU has more trade deals than any other national or international entity under the sun.

    Not to mention the core trade deal (which is to say the single market) among members themselves.

    If the EU is slow it is because trade deals are slow, and a single market in services is a lot harder than it looks. I’m not even sure the USA is a pure single market for services.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Bleak overview of latest IMF report by AEP:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/18/imf-savages-trumps-debt-rampage-fears-global-dollar-funding/

    Brexit and Corbyn could arrive just as the world economy does another 2007.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    If taking back control means anything surely it means getting to grips with a Home Office and migration policy which has not been fit for purpose for a generation or more.
    Its simply not possible without a significant amnesty which removes the backlog and allows the HO to process new claims where rights have not accrued.
    You’re probably right. So be it.
    Let’s be honest with each other (as a country) for a change.
    I could not agree more and if the Windrush and Labour's Anti Semitic issues have demonstrated we all need to be much kinder to one another
    It is also about having a system that is capable of dealing with EU citizens going forward. Of course EU citizens already here, and quite possibly those who come in the transition period, will have rights to be here. We don't know yet what the conditionality will be for those going forward but it is hard to conceive of an outcome that does not significantly increase the HO workload.
    I honestly believe that the right response to Windrush is to have an amnesty. It would be politically astute, it would allow the HO to get some sort of a grip and it would allow us to have a system capable of handling a post Brexit future.
    Yes. But May’s not the grand gesture kind of politician. Mind you, neither was Merkel.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Leave did:

    “While we’re in the EU, the UK can’t make trade deals on our own. This means we currently have no trade deals with key allies such as Australia, New Zealand or the USA - or important growing economies like India, China or Brazil. Instead of making a deal which is best for the UK, we have to wait for 27 other countries to agree it”

    https://fullfact.org/europe/vote-leave-facts-leaflet-trade/

    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    Not well. But that doesn’t give Leave a mandate for things it didn’t campaign for. If Britain ends up in the customs union, Leavers will have nothing to complain about. If it mattered to them, they should have mentioned it properly at the time.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU.
    Not so. You have not a single shred of evidence for that risible claim. Xenophobia and being beastly to our European friends was a driver. A disgusting lie about public spending on the health service was a driver. Trade deals were not.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,098
    edited April 2018

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    You won. Just own it already.

    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Leave did:

    “While we’re in the EU, the UK can’t make trade deals on our own. This means we currently have no trade deals with key allies such as Australia, New Zealand or the USA - or important growing economies like India, China or Brazil. Instead of making a deal which is best for the UK, we have to wait for 27 other countries to agree it”

    https://fullfact.org/europe/vote-leave-facts-leaflet-trade/

    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    Not well. But that doesn’t give Leave a mandate for things it didn’t campaign for. If Britain ends up in the customs union, Leavers will have nothing to complain about. If it mattered to them, they should have mentioned it properly at the time.
    It was, of course, mentioned properly at the time.

    No time to waste on political tennis (or dodgy indentations), though, today.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU. EU trade deals being very slow and cumbersome, entrenching protectionism rather than encouraging more trade, and they can't even complete their own single market in services, let alone negotiate one with others.
    Each of those sentences are classic Leaver myths.

    As we have painfully discovered, the EU has more trade deals than any other national or international entity under the sun.

    Not to mention the core trade deal (which is to say the single market) among members themselves.

    If the EU is slow it is because trade deals are slow, and a single market in services is a lot harder than it looks. I’m not even sure the USA is a pure single market for services.
    A lot of what is in the EU's trade deals is either stuff that the UK doesn't care about, or stuff that we don't want - such as maintaining high tariffs on imports of things we don't produce. Saying that we have a load of trade deals through the EU means nothing if those trade deals are of no use to us.

    The Canada deal is a great example, it took a decade or so to negotiate yet there's almost nothing on financial services, which is the UK's biggest export market. Trudeau has already said he will talk to us on the first day possible to secure a bespoke trade deal with the UK that's in both parties' interests. Win-win, as he said.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,098

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU. EU trade deals being very slow and cumbersome, entrenching protectionism rather than encouraging more trade, and they can't even complete their own single market in services, let alone negotiate one with others.
    Each of those sentences are classic Leaver myths.

    As we have painfully discovered, the EU has more trade deals than any other national or international entity under the sun.

    Not to mention the core trade deal (which is to say the single market) among members themselves.

    If the EU is slow it is because trade deals are slow, and a single market in services is a lot harder than it looks. I’m not even sure the USA is a pure single market for services.
    Disagree.

    The EU is slow because it is a disfunctional, apparently irreformable, organisation pursuing some agendas whilst claiming otherwise.

    It took them about 3 decades to make even token progress on reforming their requirement for fisherman to throw a large chunk of their catch back into the sea mainly because of paperwork issues (ffs).
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited April 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    ontrol of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    We know how things turned out:
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/986173457959391233
    Daniel Hannah is a twat.

    Project fear’s assumptions were predicated on the immediate exercising of A50, as indeed Corbyn argued for.

    By delaying and hemming and hawing and sliding into a Brexity fudge, we’ve avoided that significant economic shock. We had instead a minor collapse in the pound, which - alongside good growth in our trade partners - has lifted exports. Growth however has underperformed, Brexit has turned us into global laggards.

    I actually see nothing wrong with the economic predictions in Project Fear.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU.
    Not so. You have not a single shred of evidence for that risible claim. Xenophobia and being beastly to our European friends was a driver. A disgusting lie about public spending on the health service was a driver. Trade deals were not.
    LOL! You're even more monomanic than Mr Meeks on this one, and that's truly saying something. Not worth even trying to engage with you on the subject either.
  • Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Sandpit said:

    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU.
    Not so. You have not a single shred of evidence for that risible claim. Xenophobia and being beastly to our European friends was a driver. A disgusting lie about public spending on the health service was a driver. Trade deals were not.
    LOL! You're even more monomanic than Mr Meeks on this one, and that's truly saying something. Not worth even trying to engage with you on the subject either.
    Clearly the truth hurts.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    If taking back control means anything surely it means getting to grips with a Home Office and migration policy which has not been fit for purpose for a generation or more.
    Its simply not possible without a significant amnesty which removes the backlog and allows the HO to process new claims where rights have not accrued.
    You’re probably right. So be it.
    Let’s be honest with each other (as a country) for a change.
    I could not agree more and if the Windrush and Labour's Anti Semitic issues have demonstrated we all need to be much kinder to one another
    It is also about having a system that is capable of dealing with EU citizens going forward. Of course EU citizens already here, and quite possibly those who come in the transition period, will have rights to be here. We don't know yet what the conditionality will be for those going forward but it is hard to conceive of an outcome that does not significantly increase the HO workload.
    I honestly believe that the right response to Windrush is to have an amnesty. It would be politically astute, it would allow the HO to get some sort of a grip and it would allow us to have a system capable of handling a post Brexit future.
    I agree with that - we must show a kinder side but still be firm on illegal immigration.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU. EU trade deals being very slow and cumbersome, entrenching protectionism rather than encouraging more trade, and they can't even complete their own single market in services, let alone negotiate one with others.
    Each of those sentences are classic Leaver myths.

    As we have painfully discovered, the EU has more trade deals than any other national or international entity under the sun.

    Not to mention the core trade deal (which is to say the single market) among members themselves.

    If the EU is slow it is because trade deals are slow, and a single market in services is a lot harder than it looks. I’m not even sure the USA is a pure single market for services.
    A lot of what is in the EU's trade deals is either stuff that the UK doesn't care about, or stuff that we don't want - such as maintaining high tariffs on imports of things we don't produce. Saying that we have a load of trade deals through the EU means nothing if those trade deals are of no use to us.

    The Canada deal is a great example, it took a decade or so to negotiate yet there's almost nothing on financial services, which is the UK's biggest export market. Trudeau has already said he will talk to us on the first day possible to secure a bespoke trade deal with the UK that's in both parties' interests. Win-win, as he said.
    Actually, all he’s said is he wants a trade deal to flip over the day the U.K. leaves the EU and hence CETA.

    In other words, the status quo.

    It’s a win win perhaps if you are a Leaver desperately needing a “Potemkin” trade deal to buttress your crumbling agenda.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    ontrol of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    We know how things turned out:
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/986173457959391233
    Daniel Hannah is a twat.

    Project fear’s assumptions were predicated on the immediate exercising of A50, as indeed Corbyn argued for.

    By delaying and hemming and hawing and sliding into a Brexity fudge, we’ve avoided that significant economic shock. We had instead a minor collapse in the pound, which - alongside good growth in our trade partners - has lifted exports. Growth however has underperformed, Brexit has turned us into global laggards.

    I actually see nothing wrong with the economic predictions in Project Fear.
    Even Scott stopped claiming that many months ago.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She certainly gives that impression.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU. EU trade deals being very slow and cumbersome, entrenching protectionism rather than encouraging more trade, and they can't even complete their own single market in services, let alone negotiate one with others.
    If the EU is slow it is because trade deals are slow, and a single market in services is a lot harder than it looks. I’m not even sure the USA is a pure single market for services.
    Disagree.

    The EU is slow because it is a disfunctional, apparently irreformable, organisation pursuing some agendas whilst claiming otherwise.

    It took them about 3 decades to make even token progress on reforming their requirement for fisherman to throw a large chunk of their catch back into the sea mainly because of paperwork issues (ffs).
    Trade deals do tend to involve lots of agendas. Not just bilateral agendas, but competing interests within trading nations. This can’t be magicked away.

    On fishing, it seems the main issue is that we in the U.K. decided to sell all our quotas. That’s our problem, nothing to do with EU paperwork.
  • Anazina said:

    Does anyone else find John Mann to be an odious sanctimonious prat?

    I would suggest that is out of order.

    He is someone who has suffered the most outrageous abuse as has his wife and he will receive the support from the vast numbers of the population who see labour's anti Semitic problem as a cancer in the labour party
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Retail sales predicted to have fallen by only 0.5% in March:

    https://www.forexfactory.com/

    Given the weather and the retail apocalypse reported in the media I would expect a much larger fall to have happened.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:
    Each of those sentences are classic Leaver myths.

    As we have painfully discovered, the EU has more trade deals than any other national or international entity under the sun.

    Not to mention the core trade deal (which is to say the single market) among members themselves.

    If the EU is slow it is because trade deals are slow, and a single market in services is a lot harder than it looks. I’m not even sure the USA is a pure single market for services.
    A lot of what is in the EU's trade deals is either stuff that the UK doesn't care about, or stuff that we don't want - such as maintaining high tariffs on imports of things we don't produce. Saying that we have a load of trade deals through the EU means nothing if those trade deals are of no use to us.

    The Canada deal is a great example, it took a decade or so to negotiate yet there's almost nothing on financial services, which is the UK's biggest export market. Trudeau has already said he will talk to us on the first day possible to secure a bespoke trade deal with the UK that's in both parties' interests. Win-win, as he said.
    Actually, all he’s said is he wants a trade deal to flip over the day the U.K. leaves the EU and hence CETA.

    In other words, the status quo.

    It’s a win win perhaps if you are a Leaver desperately needing a “Potemkin” trade deal to buttress your crumbling agenda.
    That's not what he said at all. He said he wants to flip over the existing deal on day 1 then negotiate a more comprehensive deal at the first opportunity.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5605729/Brexit-means-UK-better-larger-trade-deal-Canada-says-Justin-Trudeau.html
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812


    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    ontrol of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    We know how things turned out:
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/986173457959391233
    Daniel Hannah is a twat.

    Project fear’s assumptions were predicated on the immediate exercising of A50, as indeed Corbyn argued for.

    By delaying and hemming and hawing and sliding into a Brexity fudge, we’ve avoided that significant economic shock. We had instead a minor collapse in the pound, which - alongside good growth in our trade partners - has lifted exports. Growth however has underperformed, Brexit has turned us into global laggards.

    I actually see nothing wrong with the economic predictions in Project Fear.
    Even Scott stopped claiming that many months ago.
    Maybe. I’m not wrong though.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Fraser Nelson is appalled:

    https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/986841764936876032?s=21

    But he doesn’t make the connection to the viciously anti-immigration campaign that the referendum was won on. Far from this being the wrong Brexit, it was the Brexit voted for.

    It is interesting how quickly Brexiteers have gone from being part of a brutally racist campaign to the staunchest opponents of the Windrush deportations and Labour's anti-Semitism. I think it's called cognitive dissonance. Guido and his disciples would make good case studies
    It's called taking decisions based on their merits.
    No, Roger is right. You can’t pick-n-mix xenophobia, relishing in scaring people about some foreigners then profess horror when other groups are targeted. At some point this will dawn on Leavers and they will come to appreciate the beast they have helped to create until that point, the country will continue to decline and become more divided.
    No you're wrong. I both support Brexit, and oppose the deportation of people who are lawfully here. It really isn't the case that if you support Brexit, you have to be in favour of deportation of lawful residents. And, so far as one can tell, that's a widespread opinion.

  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078

    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    Wow- you got that medical qualification so quickly.Did you apply by post?
  • Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    Wow- you got that medical qualification so quickly.Did you apply by post?
    Don't be silly. It is meant to be compassionate - she looks really stressed and ill at ease
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Fraser Nelson is appalled:

    https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/986841764936876032?s=21

    But he doesn’t make the connection to the viciously anti-immigration campaign that the referendum was won on. Far from this being the wrong Brexit, it was the Brexit voted for.

    It is interesting how quickly Brexiteers have gone from being part of a brutally racist campaign to the staunchest opponents of the Windrush deportations and Labour's anti-Semitism. I think it's called cognitive dissonance. Guido and his disciples would make good case studies
    I think that the cognitive dissonance over immigration extends much deeper. Being tough on immigration has been a vote winner since the 1959 Notting Hill race riots, and even before then. Yet ordinary Britons are generally a fairly welcoming bunch to individual immigrants. Indeed, they are often the first to be up in arms when friends, neighbours or work colleagues are getting a hard time from officialdom. Britons often dislike immigrants on principle, yet like all the ones that they have been introduced to.

    The public genuinely resent people who take the piss (eg criminals who conduct one appeal after another); they dislike the feeling that the whole system is overwhelmed. That's compatible with liking many immigrants.
  • Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585
    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting question - why are Trump’s advisers (including his former attorney) all talking as though they assume Trump is a criminal in serious legal jeopardy, when discussing the Cohen case ?
    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/04/trumps-lawyer-cohen-forgets-to-pretend-trump-is-innocent.html

    They know he's guilty. But will there be clear cut evidence?
    Will Republicans (particularly in the Senate) care?
    There is quite likely clear cut evidence - the real question is how many of Cohen's seized documents the current legal proceedings will allow the US Attorneys' Office for the Southern District of New York to have access to.

    I think it fairly likely that Cohen will be facing the prospect of a long prison term - as far as Trump is concerned, it could drag on for years, or be over quite quickly. Your guess is as good as mine.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Leave did:

    “While we’re in the EU, the UK can’t make trade deals on our own. This means we currently have no trade deals with key allies such as Australia, New Zealand or the USA - or important growing economies like India, China or Brazil. Instead of making a deal which is best for the UK, we have to wait for 27 other countries to agree it”

    https://fullfact.org/europe/vote-leave-facts-leaflet-trade/

    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    We know how things turned out:
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/986173457959391233
    TBH the economy is not doing that well and the rise in sterling is definately not helpful.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU.
    Trade deals were not.
    So why did Vote Leave put it in their leaflet?

    However much you'd like to paint the Leave vote as solely the result of xenophobia, it doesn't wash.....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited April 2018

    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
    I do not think that is widely known and does add weight to the assertion that she is not well. TM makes diabetes look easy but it is not, as I can testify through my own diabetes which I have managed to control without medication for the last 8 years
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
    Diabetes can be like a rollercoaster at times. Having it / controlling it can create very different effects in people, both untreated and treated.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:
    Each of those sentences are classic Leaver myths.

    As we have painfully discovered, the EU has more trade deals than any other national or international entity under the sun.

    Not to mention the core trade deal (which is to say the single market) among members themselves.

    If the EU is slow it is because trade deals are slow, and a single market in services is a lot harder than it looks. I’m not even sure the USA is a pure single market for services.
    A lot of what is in the EU's trade deals is either stuff that the UK doesn't care about, or stuff that we don't want - such as maintaining high tariffs on imports of things we don't produce. Saying that we have a load of trade deals through the EU means nothing if those trade deals are of no use to us.

    The Canada deal is a great example, it took a decade or so to negotiate yet there's almost nothing on financial services, which is the UK's biggest export market. Trudeau has already said he will talk to us on the first day possible to secure a bespoke trade deal with the UK that's in both parties' interests. Win-win, as he said.
    Actually, all he’s said is he wants a trade deal to flip over the day the U.K. leaves the EU and hence CETA.

    In other words, the status quo.

    It’s a win win perhaps if you are a Leaver desperately needing a “Potemkin” trade deal to buttress your crumbling agenda.
    That's not what he said at all. He said he wants to flip over the existing deal on day 1 then negotiate a more comprehensive deal at the first opportunity.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5605729/Brexit-means-UK-better-larger-trade-deal-Canada-says-Justin-Trudeau.html
    That article is a mishmash, collating things he said in Britain and in Ireland. I suspect more is made of this than actual comments imply.

    However, I am happy to concede you are right, he does call for a further deepening beyond CETA.
  • Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
    Diabetes can be like a rollercoaster at times. Having it / controlling it can create very different effects in people, both untreated and treated.
    Tell me about it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Have we not established that the lies about and to Turkey were from Cameron ?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11283924/David-Cameron-I-still-want-Turkey-to-join-EU-despite-migrant-fears.html

    "7:51PM GMT 09 Dec 2014"

    "David Cameron has said that he still “very much supports” Turkey joining the European Union, despite his Government's inability to control numbers of EU migrants coming to the UK."

    "He added that he wanted to "pave the road" for Turkey to join the EU, saying the country was "vital for our economy, vital for our security and vital for our diplomacy".

    A European Union without Turkey at its heart was “not stronger but weaker... not more secure but less... not richer but poorer”."


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/25/eu-urged-to-call-off-turkish-accession-talks

    "EU minister says Turkey still on track to join bloc despite calls to stop accession"

    Daniel Boffey in Brussels

    Tue 25 Jul 2017 19.32 BST First published on Tue 25 Jul 2017 12.24 BST



  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Dianne Abbott lives very close to me.
    Sometimes she walks past my house on the way to the bus. She’s surprisingly diminutive in real life.

    I quite like her, although I disagree with everything she’s ever stood for. She’s a fighter and a survivor. (I like Harriet Harman for the same reason).

    I do wonder if the reason she struggles is that she’s frankly left in the dark by the coterie around Corbyn.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585
    DavidL said:

    Getting meaningful numbers for immigration is hard. Migration watch says that in 2016 39,636 people were removed from the UK or left voluntarily after removal proceedings were initiated:http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/deportations-removals-and-voluntary-departures-from-the-uk/

    This number includes 6,171 foreign offenders and the procedures for dealing with prisoners on release have probably got even more vigorous since then. This is one area where the Home Office have sharpened up.

    On the other hand the Home Office estimates the number of illegal immigrants at 150,000 a year. Estimates of the number of illegal immigrants vary widely. The Staggers quotes an estimate of 430,000 way back in 2001: https://www.newstatesman.com/2017/02/how-many-illegal-immigrants-are-uk

    If the estimate of incomers is anything like close that figure is likely to have at least doubled by now although many illegal immigrants leave without Home Office intervention.

    What we have is a system where there is a backlog of 10-20 years to be dealt with. This in itself causes problems because people do not sit around waiting in that period, they form relationships, have children, acquire Article 8 rights etc making their removal more difficult. The system is also bogged down with those who have been determined to have no right to be here but whom we cannot deport because their country is deemed dangerous either generally or because of some characteristic that they have. The number of converted Christians and gays amongst those threatened with deportation is remarkable.

    So those that think that the HO officials sit there carefully adjudicating individual claims are deluding themselves. It is a system that is just totally overwhelmed and may be becoming more so. The pressure to make decisions and get through the appeals process as quickly as possible is immense. Such a system will inevitably make decisions that seem unreasonable or harsh or plain stupid. Its baked in. If the press want to run with stories of this type on the back of WIndrush there will literally be no end of them.

    I agree with much of that, but this - "The pressure to make decisions and get through the appeals process as quickly as possible is immense..." doesn't really reflect the reality.
    Both anecdote, and the figures, suggest that the Home Office forces people to go through lengthy and expensive appeals even in the cases where official have made clear errors.
    The sheer number of appeals (over half of which have been upheld in favour of the appellants), compared to the numbers actually deported, convincingly demonstrates this.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967


    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:


    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?

    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    ontrol of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    We know how things turned out:
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/986173457959391233
    Daniel Hannah is a twat.

    Project fear’s assumptions were predicated on the immediate exercising of A50, as indeed Corbyn argued for.

    By delaying and hemming and hawing and sliding into a Brexity fudge, we’ve avoided that significant economic shock. We had instead a minor collapse in the pound, which - alongside good growth in our trade partners - has lifted exports. Growth however has underperformed, Brexit has turned us into global laggards.

    I actually see nothing wrong with the economic predictions in Project Fear.
    Even Scott stopped claiming that many months ago.
    Maybe. I’m not wrong though.
    LOL

    You remind me of those people who said that leaving the ERM would be a disaster and then invented excuses when it wasn't.

    And those people who said that not joining the Euro would be a disaster and then invented excuses when it wasn't.

    The idea that delaying the activation of A50 by a few months had such a huge effect on the economy is bollox and you know that.

    After all if it was the activation of A50 which was decisive why didn't the economy plunge into immediate recession a year ago ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Retail sales predicted to have fallen by only 0.5% in March:

    https://www.forexfactory.com/

    Given the weather and the retail apocalypse reported in the media I would expect a much larger fall to have happened.

    Retail sales can be growing, but the growth in online sales would still be killing some chains.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    They might, they might not but I've a right to be cynical and a right to ask questions. I'm delighted the Skripals and DS Bailey are recovering but we still seem in the dark as to how, when, where and by whom they were infected. As for Douma, "something" clearly happened and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585
    Sandpit said:

    That -- Theresa May's triumph -- is indeed what is meant to have happened, but unfortunately it all unravelled within an hour as the details became murkier and murkier. Fortunately for the Prime Minister, a right-wing cabal at MI5 arranged a celebrity death to wipe the whole mess off the front pages while Amber Rudd set up some sort of appeals hotline.
    Jacqui Smith has, IIRC, been quoted as saying she knew nothing about it (I know, I know). Has Alan Johnson said anything?
    Jacqui Smith, who was Labour home secretary until replaced by Alan Johnson in June 2009, told the BBC that it was "not a policy decision she had made". Mr Johnson also said he "had absolutely no recollection at all of being involved" in the landing card decision.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710
    Such decisions were very unlikely to get to ministerial level, unless there had been an outcry from someone at the time (which there wasn't), although clearly the minister is still accountable for what happens in their department even if they don't know about it.

    Corbyn's absolute determination to pin the scandal on Mrs May was what backfired yesterday, for two reasons:

    1. Don't ask a question to which you don't know the answer - that's the obvious one, his team should have researched the history of the issue and given the LotO a question which wouldn't be so easily deflected by a PM who had obviously done her research.

    2. Corbyn can't react to the answers. It's his biggest weakness at PMQs. There have been several situations where he's ignored an open goal in favour of Debbie from Lincolnshire asking about her tax credits, and others such as yesterday where he doubled down on the same line of questioning having been given a dead straight answer to the first one.

    Mrs May isn't one for thinking on her feet, she prefers to take time over things, and compared to her predecessor isn't a politician suited to the format. Corbyn seems to almost help her along sometimes though, with his complete unwillingness to deviate from his own script.
    The other reason he failed is that he can't see the wood for the trees.
    The document destruction, while clearly wrong, is very much a secondary matter compared to the overall nature of the Home Office's pursuit of undocumented immigrants. And the responsibility for the latter is entirely clearcut.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Fascinating article, on how young people are being conned online to bet on binary currency options.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/19/wolves-of-instagram-jordan-belmont-social-media-traders
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724


    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
    I do not think that is widely known and does add weight to the assertion that she is not well. TM makes diabetes look easy but it is not, as I can testify through my own diabetes which I have managed to control without medication for the last 8 years
    TM was diagnosed in 2012 and has a body shape which probably is more amenable to control Diane Abbott was diagnosed in 2015 and doesn’t.
    For the avoidance of doubt I’m not casting aspesions on DA’s lifestyle; some people are naturally one shape, some another.I ’d have to live on about 300 calories a day to really look ‘slim'.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Fascinating article, on how young people are being conned online to bet on binary currency options.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/19/wolves-of-instagram-jordan-belmont-social-media-traders

    "How to make £30,000 a month"

    Answer: sell people the idea of making £30,000 a month.

    It's an old idea and a new audience.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Fascinating article, on how young people are being conned online to bet on binary currency options.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/19/wolves-of-instagram-jordan-belmont-social-media-traders

    "How to make £30,000 a month"

    Answer: sell people the idea of making £30,000 a month.

    It's an old idea and a new audience.
    Right it is a new spin on an old con, just i didn't know it was done via these binary currency betting platforms.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082


    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
    I do not think that is widely known and does add weight to the assertion that she is not well. TM makes diabetes look easy but it is not, as I can testify through my own diabetes which I have managed to control without medication for the last 8 years
    It depends. There are probably 5 types of Diabetes, and each has different problems. I suspect yours is type 5, and not generally a big problem. I suspect that TM has SIDD (2 in this classification) and Dianne Abbott 3. Afro carribeans do manifest different aspects of the condition, with hypertension, kidney and cerebrovascular disease particularly problematic.

    https://www.nhs.uk/news/diabetes/are-there-actually-5-types-diabetes/
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883
    edited April 2018

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    The intellectually threadbare psychodrama of Brexit has a long way to go yet. Nobody is going to be "moving on" after the nakba next March.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812


    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:


    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?

    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    ontrol of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....
    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    We know how things turned out:
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/986173457959391233
    Daniel Hannah is a twat.

    Project fear’s assumptions were predicated on the immediate exercising of A50, as indeed Corbyn argued for.

    By delaying and hemming and hawing and sliding into a Brexity fudge, we’ve avoided that significant economic shock. We had instead a minor collapse in the pound, which - alongside good growth in our trade partners - has lifted exports. Growth however has underperformed, Brexit has turned us into global laggards.

    I actually see nothing wrong with the economic predictions in Project Fear.
    Even Scott stopped claiming that many months ago.
    Maybe. I’m not wrong though.
    LOL

    You remind me of those people who said that leaving the ERM would be a disaster and then invented excuses when it wasn't.

    And those people who said that not joining the Euro would be a disaster and then invented excuses when it wasn't.

    The idea that delaying the activation of A50 by a few months had such a huge effect on the economy is bollox and you know that.

    After all if it was the activation of A50 which was decisive why didn't the economy plunge into immediate recession a year ago ?
    Because the phlegmatic British consumer and business owner decided, probably rightly, that we were heading for fudge rather than the immediate and chaotic rupture implicitly promised by many in the Leave camp and modelled by Treasury.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Danny565 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Has anyone seen Sean T since Viagra went "over the counter" at Boots?

    TSE seems to have "away" quite a lot too now I come to think of it... ;)

    I just spat my tea out :D
    Over the counter might have some unfortunate connotations in this case
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387


    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
    I do not think that is widely known and does add weight to the assertion that she is not well. TM makes diabetes look easy but it is not, as I can testify through my own diabetes which I have managed to control without medication for the last 8 years
    TM was diagnosed in 2012 and has a body shape which probably is more amenable to control Diane Abbott was diagnosed in 2015 and doesn’t.
    For the avoidance of doubt I’m not casting aspesions on DA’s lifestyle; some people are naturally one shape, some another.I ’d have to live on about 300 calories a day to really look ‘slim'.
    She has type 2 diabetes where lifestyle is a considerable, but by no means only, factor, but in principle should be easier to control.

    Control is a very odd idea. My dad has to explain that however well he keeps everything under control 99% of the time, every so often it will still come and shaft him.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Sean_F said:

    Retail sales predicted to have fallen by only 0.5% in March:

    https://www.forexfactory.com/

    Given the weather and the retail apocalypse reported in the media I would expect a much larger fall to have happened.

    Retail sales can be growing, but the growth in online sales would still be killing some chains.
    Which is why 'mediocre middle' chains likes of ToysRUs and Maplin have shut down.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    They might, they might not but I've a right to be cynical and a right to ask questions. I'm delighted the Skripals and DS Bailey are recovering but we still seem in the dark as to how, when, where and by whom they were infected. As for Douma, "something" clearly happened and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    While treating any government claim with a degree of scepticism is entirely sensible, I wouldn't hold Fisk up as any kind of neutral arbiter, either.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Retail sales predicted to have fallen by only 0.5% in March:

    https://www.forexfactory.com/

    Given the weather and the retail apocalypse reported in the media I would expect a much larger fall to have happened.

    Retail sales fall 1.2% in March.

    Another victory for common sense over the 'experts'.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2018

    Sean_F said:

    Retail sales predicted to have fallen by only 0.5% in March:

    https://www.forexfactory.com/

    Given the weather and the retail apocalypse reported in the media I would expect a much larger fall to have happened.

    Retail sales can be growing, but the growth in online sales would still be killing some chains.
    Which is why 'mediocre middle' chains likes of ToysRUs and Maplin have shut down.
    ToysRUs failure is also in no small part to missing the online shopping boat and decision initially to partner with Amazon. Then when Amazon learned about the toy sector they said bye bye to ToysRUs and Toys were left a million miles behind when it came to online.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Just imagine, if leave had the levers of power on side (Government )the leave percentage could easily have gone to 55%.

    Just admit it remain,you had everything going for you but leave with they own reasons for leaving was ingrained in the vast majority of leavers and it didn't change from dot one.



  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724


    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
    I do not think that is widely known and does add weight to the assertion that she is not well. TM makes diabetes look easy but it is not, as I can testify through my own diabetes which I have managed to control without medication for the last 8 years
    TM was diagnosed in 2012 and has a body shape which probably is more amenable to control Diane Abbott was diagnosed in 2015 and doesn’t.
    For the avoidance of doubt I’m not casting aspesions on DA’s lifestyle; some people are naturally one shape, some another.I ’d have to live on about 300 calories a day to really look ‘slim'.
    She has type 2 diabetes where lifestyle is a considerable, but by no means only, factor, but in principle should be easier to control.

    Control is a very odd idea. My dad has to explain that however well he keeps everything under control 99% of the time, every so often it will still come and shaft him.
    Quite. See also Dr F’s post upthread.
    I’m really sorry for DA. Not up there with Mo Mowlam by any means, but could be a nasty problem.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited April 2018

    Fascinating article, on how young people are being conned online to bet on binary currency options.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/19/wolves-of-instagram-jordan-belmont-social-media-traders

    "How to make £30,000 a month"

    Answer: sell people the idea of making £30,000 a month.

    It's an old idea and a new audience.
    Right it is a new spin on an old con, just i didn't know it was done via these binary currency betting platforms.
    The most surprising part of that article is this "Some companies, such as 500Plus and 24Option, are legitimate"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tyson said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Has anyone seen Sean T since Viagra went "over the counter" at Boots?

    TSE seems to have "away" quite a lot too now I come to think of it... ;)

    I only take viagra to stop myself from rolling out of bed.
    A friend gave me a single viagra some time ago, and I discovered it today whilst searching for my sun cream. My wife is away, and I was tempted to try it on a what the heck, but then bottled out......

    Is viagra something one can take to see what happens? I’ve not researched it, but soemthing tells me there is wealth of experience on pbCOM.....

    As a rule you shouldn’t take pharmaceuticals except when medically necessary. IIRC sildenafil is a nitrate based vasodilator so coukd also have an impact in your heart (the ED impact is just the result of increased blood flow to your nether regions)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    They might, they might not but I've a right to be cynical and a right to ask questions. I'm delighted the Skripals and DS Bailey are recovering but we still seem in the dark as to how, when, where and by whom they were infected. As for Douma, "something" clearly happened and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    There is similar fact evidence. People who offend Putin tend to die in all sorts of nasty ways; they fall out of tall buildings, or get killed in explosions, or get poisoned or strangled. Assad has used chemical weapons on numerous occasions.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited April 2018
    .
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    They might, they might not but I've a right to be cynical and a right to ask questions. I'm delighted the Skripals and DS Bailey are recovering but we still seem in the dark as to how, when, where and by whom they were infected. As for Douma, "something" clearly happened and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    You only need to look at the lying by the Russian government over the OPCW analysis of the chemicals found in Salisbury to see that they are guilty.

    Refusing to make a judgement does not automatically give anyone the moral high ground.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Retail sales predicted to have fallen by only 0.5% in March:

    https://www.forexfactory.com/

    Given the weather and the retail apocalypse reported in the media I would expect a much larger fall to have happened.

    Retail sales fall 1.2% in March.

    Another victory for common sense over the 'experts'.

    Even 1.2% doesn't seem bad, given the weather.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Dianne Abbott lives very close to me.
    Sometimes she walks past my house on the way to the bus. She’s surprisingly diminutive in real life.

    I quite like her, although I disagree with everything she’s ever stood for. She’s a fighter and a survivor. (I like Harriet Harman for the same reason).

    I do wonder if the reason she struggles is that she’s frankly left in the dark by the coterie around Corbyn.

    You've got to put Hazel Blears in that group. Irritating as hell, I disagree with everything she believed in and said, but tremendous respect for her in standing her ground and more often than not steamrolling anyone in her way.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    twitter.com/NickJTimothy/status/986872938283618305

    Once again, Nick Timothy makes it worse.

    He is on a roll...
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    They might, they might not but I've a right to be cynical and a right to ask questions. I'm delighted the Skripals and DS Bailey are recovering but we still seem in the dark as to how, when, where and by whom they were infected. As for Douma, "something" clearly happened and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    ""but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”" (Fisk)

    Sounds nonsense to me. Hypoxia is caused when you swap the air for gasses which are not air. Doesn't have to be poison gas, could be CO2, but I don't see that his dust and wind would do it. There's quite a lot of oxygen in wind. And he is doing a differential diagnosis (hypoxia/poisoning) by eye alone: how does that work? Are the symptoms that different and has he seen enough of bot to tell the difference?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    snip

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    ""but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”" (Fisk)

    Sounds nonsense to me. Hypoxia is caused when you swap the air for gasses which are not air. Doesn't have to be poison gas, could be CO2, but I don't see that his dust and wind would do it. There's quite a lot of oxygen in wind. And he is doing a differential diagnosis (hypoxia/poisoning) by eye alone: how does that work? Are the symptoms that different and has he seen enough of bot to tell the difference?
    I read that article and then looked up symptoms of hypoxia and it did not fit. I'm not a doctor though, nor, obviously, on the scene.

    I then read in yesterdays Guardian that Syrian doctors and their families were receiving all sorts of threats of violence if they started talking about gas attacks.

    So, frankly, I don't think we are any the wiser on all this.

    But as Assad as used chemicals many times, seems pretty open and shut to me.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Fraser Nelson is appalled:

    https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/986841764936876032?s=21

    But he doesn’t make the connection to the viciously anti-immigration campaign that the referendum was won on. Far from this being the wrong Brexit, it was the Brexit voted for.

    It is interesting how quickly Brexiteers have gone from being part of a brutally racist campaign to the staunchest opponents of the Windrush deportations and Labour's anti-Semitism. I think it's called cognitive dissonance. Guido and his disciples would make good case studies
    It's called taking decisions based on their merits.
    No, Roger is right. You can’t pick-n-mix xenophobia, relishing in scaring people about some foreigners then profess horror when other groups are targeted. At some point this will dawn on Leavers and they will come to appreciate the beast they have helped to create until that point, the country will continue to decline and become more divided.
    The Windrush generation are not being [insert emotive word here]

    A general policy of requiring people to provide their right to residency has been inflexibly applied.

    That is a mistake, but a bureaucratic one which has created a political problem. It will be fixed.

    (FWIW when my wife was going for ILR it was a complete PITA despite the fact she’d been here only a few years and we had a specialist lawyer helping us. I can only imagine how much worse it would be for one of the Windrush group)
  • Foxy said:


    Good Morning.

    Good news from Chesterfield. Dianne Abbot replaced by Emily Thornberry on this afternoon's QT recording at the Winding Wheel.

    Liz Truss still representing the Tories.

    I really think Dianne Abbott has health issues. She should take a back seat in politics for her own health
    She was late diagnosed with diabetes, I think she might still be adjusting to it.
    I do not think that is widely known and does add weight to the assertion that she is not well. TM makes diabetes look easy but it is not, as I can testify through my own diabetes which I have managed to control without medication for the last 8 years
    It depends. There are probably 5 types of Diabetes, and each has different problems. I suspect yours is type 5, and not generally a big problem. I suspect that TM has SIDD (2 in this classification) and Dianne Abbott 3. Afro carribeans do manifest different aspects of the condition, with hypertension, kidney and cerebrovascular disease particularly problematic.

    https://www.nhs.uk/news/diabetes/are-there-actually-5-types-diabetes/
    I did lose some weight but for the last few years my regular blood tests have shown that it is in control. without medication. My sister developed it immediately after my Father's sudden death in 1980 and was insulin dependent almost immediately and for the the rest of her life
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    That -- Theresa May's triumph -- is indeed what is meant to have happened, but unfortunately it all unravelled within an hour as the details became murkier and murkier. Fortunately for the Prime Minister, a right-wing cabal at MI5 arranged a celebrity death to wipe the whole mess off the front pages while Amber Rudd set up some sort of appeals hotline.
    Jacqui Smith has, IIRC, been quoted as saying she knew nothing about it (I know, I know). Has Alan Johnson said anything?
    Jacqui Smith, who was Labour home secretary until replaced by Alan Johnson in June 2009, told the BBC that it was "not a policy decision she had made". Mr Johnson also said he "had absolutely no recollection at all of being involved" in the landing card decision.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710
    Such decisions were very unlikely to get to ministerial level, unless there had been an outcry from someone at the time (which there wasn't), although clearly the minister is still accountable for what happens in their department even if they don't know about it.

    Corbyn's absolute determination to pin the scandal on Mrs May was what backfired yesterday, for two reasons:

    1. Don't ask a question to which you don't know the answer - that's the obvious one, his team should have researched the history of the issue and given the LotO a question which wouldn't be so easily deflected by a PM who had obviously done her research.

    2. Corbyn can't react to the answers. It's his biggest weakness at PMQs. There have been several situations where he's ignored an open goal in favour of Debbie from Lincolnshire asking about her tax credits, and others such as yesterday where he doubled down on the same line of questioning having been given a dead straight answer to the first one.

    Mrs May isn't one for thinking on her feet, she prefers to take time over things, and compared to her predecessor isn't a politician suited to the format. Corbyn seems to almost help her along sometimes though, with his complete unwillingness to deviate from his own script.
    The other reason he failed is that he can't see the wood for the trees.
    The document destruction, while clearly wrong, is very much a secondary matter compared to the overall nature of the Home Office's pursuit of undocumented immigrants. And the responsibility for the latter is entirely clearcut.
    Very much so, there’s wide agreement that the situation is a mess - but Corbyn put all his eggs in the one basket of the timing of the destruction of landing cards, in the hope of pinning it to the PM personally. And when that failed he didn’t know which way to look.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,544
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    They might, they might not but I've a right to be cynical and a right to ask questions. I'm delighted the Skripals and DS Bailey are recovering but we still seem in the dark as to how, when, where and by whom they were infected. As for Douma, "something" clearly happened and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    Whilst distrust can be wise, an excess of it can be foolish.

    As ever in such situations, it's a good idea to consider what evidence would be required to convince you of the government's story. What would change your mind?

    Personally, I think the Russian's behaviour over MH17, Litvinenko and other cases shows that they are utterly untrustworthy about such events. *Anything* they say about the events has to be mistrusted, on past experience. Our government is not perfect, but it is an order of magnitude better than the Russian one when it comes to information.

    (And that also goes for people such as myself as well: we need to ask what would persuade us the Russians were not responsible.)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Fraser Nelson is appalled:

    https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/986841764936876032?s=21

    But he doesn’t make the connection to the viciously anti-immigration campaign that the referendum was won on. Far from this being the wrong Brexit, it was the Brexit voted for.

    It is interesting how quickly Brexiteers have gone from being part of a brutally racist campaign to the staunchest opponents of the Windrush deportations and Labour's anti-Semitism. I think it's called cognitive dissonance. Guido and his disciples would make good case studies
    I think that the cognitive dissonance over immigration extends much deeper. Being tough on immigration has been a vote winner since the 1959 Notting Hill race riots, and even before then. Yet ordinary Britons are generally a fairly welcoming bunch to individual immigrants. Indeed, they are often the first to be up in arms when friends, neighbours or work colleagues are getting a hard time from officialdom. Britons often dislike immigrants on principle, yet like all the ones that they have been introduced to.
    They also hate officialdom which is why they will stick up for *any* individual getting a hard time
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Mostly sounds pretty sensible.

    It is absurd how quickly we grant indefinite leave to remain and citizenship in this country. It should be a 10-year wait as Austria is proposing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Neither of the former major constituent parts of 'the lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen.' are going to leave the EU though, and both are looking to take a tough line on extra-EU migration.
    On the other hand we'll be leaving the EU and its not going to make a gnat's fart of difference to our immigration policy or numbers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)
    .

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    They might, they might not but I've a right to be cynical and a right to ask questions. I'm delighted the Skripals and DS Bailey are recovering but we still seem in the dark as to how, when, where and by whom they were infected. As for Douma, "something" clearly happened and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    ""but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”" (Fisk)

    Sounds nonsense to me. Hypoxia is caused when you swap the air for gasses which are not air. Doesn't have to be poison gas, could be CO2, but I don't see that his dust and wind would do it. There's quite a lot of oxygen in wind. And he is doing a differential diagnosis (hypoxia/poisoning) by eye alone: how does that work? Are the symptoms that different and has he seen enough of bot to tell the difference?
    Hypoxia is quite different from poisoning, with the former you just feel a little high then faint as the oxygen diminishes at the brain. Someone who dies of hypoxia won’t know what happened to them, it’s well studied in the fields of aviation and mountaineering. Poisoning on the other hand will likely lead to coughing and spluttering as the chemical affects the nasal region, trachea and lungs, someone who dies of gas poisoning likely suffers horribly in their last moments as they gasp for air.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    ""but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”" (Fisk)

    Sounds nonsense to me. Hypoxia is caused when you swap the air for gasses which are not air. Doesn't have to be poison gas, could be CO2, but I don't see that his dust and wind would do it. There's quite a lot of oxygen in wind. And he is doing a differential diagnosis (hypoxia/poisoning) by eye alone: how does that work? Are the symptoms that different and has he seen enough of bot to tell the difference?
    And pouring water on a has attack victim is precisely what you don't do.

    Has anyone seen verification of the at least 75 dead?

    If not might it not be a good idea to carry out independent autopsies
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    RoyalBlue said:

    Mostly sounds pretty sensible.

    It is absurd how quickly we grant indefinite leave to remain and citizenship in this country. It should be a 10-year wait as Austria is proposing.
    How is stealing money from refugees sensible?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967


    Sandpit said:


    Tough shit, to borrow a rather inelegant expression....

    They frightened the public into Brexit instead.
    As opposed to Remain who tried to frighten the public out of Brexit.....how did that turn out....
    We know how things turned out:
    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/986173457959391233
    Daniel Hannah is a twat.

    Project fear’s assumptions were predicated on the immediate exercising of A50, as indeed Corbyn argued for.

    By delaying and hemming and hawing and sliding into a Brexity fudge, we’ve avoided that significant economic shock. We had instead a minor collapse in the pound, which - alongside good growth in our trade partners - has lifted exports. Growth however has underperformed, Brexit has turned us into global laggards.

    I actually see nothing wrong with the economic predictions in Project Fear.
    Even Scott stopped claiming that many months ago.
    Maybe. I’m not wrong though.
    LOL

    You remind me of those people who said that leaving the ERM would be a disaster and then invented excuses when it wasn't.

    And those people who said that not joining the Euro would be a disaster and then invented excuses when it wasn't.

    The idea that delaying the activation of A50 by a few months had such a huge effect on the economy is bollox and you know that.

    After all if it was the activation of A50 which was decisive why didn't the economy plunge into immediate recession a year ago ?
    Because the phlegmatic British consumer and business owner decided, probably rightly, that we were heading for fudge rather than the immediate and chaotic rupture implicitly promised by many in the Leave camp and modelled by Treasury.
    So you're saying that Cameron and Osborne chose to advocate a policy which they knew to be needlessly and deliberately damaging, ie the immediate activation of A50 upon a Leave win, even though the Leave side weren't advocating that ?

    I'll let you discuss that one with the other PB Remainers.

    Or perhaps Project Fear 2016 was like the Project Fear 1992 - a load of bollox.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    King Cole, being naturally slim is not necessarily a good thing. I recently lost (a little) weight for reasons that are beyond me (I was exercising less than I'd like to).

    Mr. Ace, we'll move on, sooner or later. The sooner the better.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I have to confess since reading the Robert Fisk piece in the Independent, I'm now having "doubts" about events in Douma and the basis on which the albeit limited airstrikes, which I was happy to initially support, were carried out.

    To be honest, I don't trust or believe the Government - it's not necessarily a question of outright lying, it's more misinformation, disinformation and the notion that as a citizen I have to unreservedly trust and believe whatever anyone from the Prime Minister down tells me.

    Before anyone jumps on their partisan bandwagon, I don't trust this Government, I didn't trust the Coalition and I didn't trust the Labour Government. I wouldn't trust a Corbyn Government and I wouldn't even trust a majority LD Government.

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    ""but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”" (Fisk)

    Sounds nonsense to me. Hypoxia is caused when you swap the air for gasses which are not air. Doesn't have to be poison gas, could be CO2, but I don't see that his dust and wind would do it. There's quite a lot of oxygen in wind. And he is doing a differential diagnosis (hypoxia/poisoning) by eye alone: how does that work? Are the symptoms that different and has he seen enough of bot to tell the difference?
    And pouring water on a has attack victim is precisely what you don't do.
    Source?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    TGOHF said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    .

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    If this was important rather than scaring voters with lies about Turks, you should have campaigned about it. You didn’t, so you’re stuck with the limited mandate you’ve got. Tough shit.
    Have we not established that the lies about and to Turkey were from Cameron ?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11283924/David-Cameron-I-still-want-Turkey-to-join-EU-despite-migrant-fears.html

    "7:51PM GMT 09 Dec 2014"

    "David Cameron has said that he still “very much supports” Turkey joining the European Union, despite his Government's inability to control numbers of EU migrants coming to the UK."

    "He added that he wanted to "pave the road" for Turkey to join the EU, saying the country was "vital for our economy, vital for our security and vital for our diplomacy".

    A European Union without Turkey at its heart was “not stronger but weaker... not more secure but less... not richer but poorer”."


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/25/eu-urged-to-call-off-turkish-accession-talks

    "EU minister says Turkey still on track to join bloc despite calls to stop accession"

    Daniel Boffey in Brussels

    Tue 25 Jul 2017 19.32 BST First published on Tue 25 Jul 2017 12.24 BST
    Apparently the line is that Leavers were too stupid to understand that all the talk of Turkey joining the EU (including from the PM, several European leaders and the EU itself, including talks scheduled for the week after the referendum) was total and utter bollocks that was never going to actually happen.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I’m glad to see that Vince Cable has agreed to return donations from convicted fraudster and bail jumper Andrew Green.

    What do you mean he hasn’t? Surely he would apply double standards?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Charles said:

    I’m glad to see that Vince Cable has agreed to return donations from convicted fraudster and bail jumper Andrew Green.

    What do you mean he hasn’t? Surely he would apply double standards?
    How stupid are HMRC?
    Obviously it is not an official criterion. Even as an unofficial criterion, I would bet my bottom dollar that someone at HMRC - and not the Tories/government - has taken it upon themselves to think about it.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    edited April 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Retail sales predicted to have fallen by only 0.5% in March:

    https://www.forexfactory.com/

    Given the weather and the retail apocalypse reported in the media I would expect a much larger fall to have happened.

    Retail sales fall 1.2% in March.

    Another victory for common sense over the 'experts'.

    Even 1.2% doesn't seem bad, given the weather.
    The biggest fall was in vehicle fuel sales, unsurprisingly.

    Overall its the same as the fall which happened between February and March in 2017.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Sandpit said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)
    .

    I don't know when the trust was lost - perhaps I've always had a healthy cynicism or simply, as a citizen, I believe I have the right to know but there's the thing - May, as Cameron and Blair before her, loves hiding behind "national security" and " classified information". We're back to "believe and trust the Government. We know, we're not telling you, but we know."

    They might, they might not but I've a right to be cynical and a right to ask questions. I'm delighted the Skripals and DS Bailey are recovering but we still seem in the dark as to how, when, where and by whom they were infected. As for Douma, "something" clearly happened and initial reports seemed to verify the notion of gas bombs dropped from helicopters but I now read Fisk, a much respected correspondent, and I'm left with questions and concerns.

    It's so much easier to portray the world and everything in it as black and white - we good, Putin bad,. May good, Corbyn bad - but all I see is shades of grey and that worries me because much though I'd like to think I was on the side of what is decent, civilised and ordered, I'm not always convinced that's true.

    ""but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”" (Fisk)

    Sounds nonsense to me. Hypoxia is caused when you swap the air for gasses which are not air. Doesn't have to be poison gas, could be CO2, but I don't see that his dust and wind would do it. There's quite a lot of oxygen in wind. And he is doing a differential diagnosis (hypoxia/poisoning) by eye alone: how does that work? Are the symptoms that different and has he seen enough of bot to tell the difference?
    Hypoxia is quite different from poisoning, with the former you just feel a little high then faint as the oxygen diminishes at the brain. Someone who dies of hypoxia won’t know what happened to them, it’s well studied in the fields of aviation and mountaineering. Poisoning on the other hand will likely lead to coughing and spluttering as the chemical affects the nasal region, trachea and lungs, someone who dies of gas poisoning likely suffers horribly in their last moments as they gasp for air.
    People die of carbon monoxide poisoning without realising, either. There is a degree of confusion in both cases which doesn't help the victim rationalise the solution.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585
    edited April 2018
    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Fraser Nelson is appalled:

    https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/986841764936876032?s=21

    But he doesn’t make the connection to the viciously anti-immigration campaign that the referendum was won on. Far from this being the wrong Brexit, it was the Brexit voted for.

    It is interesting how quickly Brexiteers have gone from being part of a brutally racist campaign to the staunchest opponents of the Windrush deportations and Labour's anti-Semitism. I think it's called cognitive dissonance. Guido and his disciples would make good case studies
    It's called taking decisions based on their merits.
    No, Roger is right. You can’t pick-n-mix xenophobia, relishing in scaring people about some foreigners then profess horror when other groups are targeted. At some point this will dawn on Leavers and they will come to appreciate the beast they have helped to create until that point, the country will continue to decline and become more divided.
    The Windrush generation are not being [insert emotive word here]

    A general policy of requiring people to provide their right to residency has been inflexibly applied.

    That is a mistake, but a bureaucratic one which has created a political problem. It will be fixed.

    (FWIW when my wife was going for ILR it was a complete PITA despite the fact she’d been here only a few years and we had a specialist lawyer helping us. I can only imagine how much worse it would be for one of the Windrush group)
    With all due respect, it was not a bureaucratic mistake; rather a bureaucracy following a very clear lead set by ministers, May at their forefront.

    Sure, the particular Windrush fiasco was an unintended consequence, but the effort to render life impossible for all undocumented immigrants* (amongst whom a significant proportion are entirely entitled to permanent residence, as we have seen) was quite deliberate.

    *along with imperfectly documented immigrants.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    TOPPING said:
    It is very much a bubble story though. Arguing about the process of a PR stunt that happened five years ago is not going to engage the public.

    That's not to say that there won't be some political ramifications but they'll be secondary ones such as the impression that it gives (or reinforces) about May among Con MPs.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    edited April 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Neither of the former major constituent parts of 'the lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen.' are going to leave the EU though, and both are looking to take a tough line on extra-EU migration.
    On the other hand we'll be leaving the EU and its not going to make a gnat's fart of difference to our immigration policy or numbers.
    Even taken together, I think modern-day Austria and Hungary would account for well under 50% of the 1918 Austro-Hungarian empire? Modern-day successor state also include Czech Rep, Slovakia, some of Poland, some of Romania, some of Ukraine, some of Moldova (?), Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegoniva, some of Serbia and some of Italy.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Sean_F said:

    Retail sales predicted to have fallen by only 0.5% in March:

    https://www.forexfactory.com/

    Given the weather and the retail apocalypse reported in the media I would expect a much larger fall to have happened.

    Retail sales fall 1.2% in March.

    Another victory for common sense over the 'experts'.

    Even 1.2% doesn't seem bad, given the weather.
    The biggest fall was in vehicle fuel sales, unsurprisingly.

    Overall its the same as the fall which happened between February and March in 2017.
    People not able to drive out to Debenhams due to the snow.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,754

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    As an aside, those wanting us to permanently remain in the customs union will also permanently make the EU a feature of UK politics and entrench the poisonous atmosphere we have now.

    Leaving properly is the only way to move on.

    If we remain in the customs union because the unelected Lords decide that's the way the vote of the electorate to leave should be handled, then we'll have parties proposing leaving the customs union, and others proposing joining the single market.

    Absurd garbage.

    Being in the continent of Europe and sharing a land border with the EU makes it a permanent feature of U.K. politics.

    The poisonous atmosphere is in part a result of the tendentious lies served up in the name of Brexit (not to mention the racism).

    You won. Just own it already.
    Getting pretty sick of Remainers telling Leavers to own it whilst other Remainers do everything they can to keep us under EU control e.g. in the form of the Customs Union.

    Maybe tell your mates in the HoL to let us own it?
    Unhinged. The customs union is not the EU. If Britain ends up in it, Leavers will have no ground to argue that the referendum vote was not honoured.
    Back to insults I see.

    Lost to a bus. Quelle surprise.

    The Customs union would prevent us having control of our trade policy, as it would be significantly in control of the EU.
    Trade policy was a significant driver of the vote to leave the EU. EU trade deals being very slow and cumbersome, entrenching protectionism rather than encouraging more trade, and they can't even complete their own single market in services, let alone negotiate one with others.
    TTIP was a major factor for me.
    According to the Ashcroft exit poll, 'The belief that when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it' was the most important for only 6% of Leavers - third and fourth most inportant reason at best.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    Charles said:

    The Windrush generation are not being [insert emotive word here]

    A general policy of requiring people to provide their right to residency has been inflexibly applied.

    That is a mistake, but a bureaucratic one which has created a political problem. It will be fixed.

    (FWIW when my wife was going for ILR it was a complete PITA despite the fact she’d been here only a few years and we had a specialist lawyer helping us. I can only imagine how much worse it would be for one of the Windrush group)

    Callous incompetence and arbitrary rejections are features, not bugs, of Mrs May's Hostile Immigration Environment policy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Pulpstar said:

    Fascinating article, on how young people are being conned online to bet on binary currency options.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/19/wolves-of-instagram-jordan-belmont-social-media-traders

    "How to make £30,000 a month"

    Answer: sell people the idea of making £30,000 a month.

    It's an old idea and a new audience.
    Right it is a new spin on an old con, just i didn't know it was done via these binary currency betting platforms.
    The most surprising part of that article is this "Some companies, such as 500Plus and 24Option, are legitimate"
    That just means that they actually offer bets on markets, and have the appropriate licences to operate wherever they’re based.

    As opposed to the young black kid in the story, who seems to derive the majority of his income from subscriptions to a WhatsApp group and referral fees from semi-legitimate companies - while telling the world from a loud platform that he’s making his money from trading currencies.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Pulpstar said:

    Neither of the former major constituent parts of 'the lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen.' are going to leave the EU though, and both are looking to take a tough line on extra-EU migration.
    On the other hand we'll be leaving the EU and its not going to make a gnat's fart of difference to our immigration policy or numbers.
    Even taken together, I think modern-day Austria and Hungary would account for well under 50% of the 1918 Austro-Hungarian empire? Modern-day successor state also include Czech Rep, Slovakia, some of Poland, some of Romania, some of Ukraine, some of Moldova (?), Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegoniva, some of Serbia and some of Italy.
    On a point of order, the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen did not cover Austria. It represented only the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary.
This discussion has been closed.