@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve heard of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
Harriet Line - @HarriLine: Government suffers its first defeat in the House of Lords over the EU (Withdrawal) Bill after peers vote in favour of a customs union amendment by 348 to 225
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
May I be the first to say that we leave The Apocalypse alone on this thread. All that contorting and twisting in the wind is likely to put his back out.
His? EDIT: Doh! Beaten to it!!
Interesting that he/she assumes I’m a man. Why?
I get the feeling that most people on here are male.
I work on the basis of visualising everyone as a 20 stone heavy goods driver from the north just to keep up a consistency of response.
Of course in the high days of the Herd, this could be frowned upon as being beastly to the weak and feeble females of that species.
Mr. Barnesian, pathos is the way of leading the weak of will and mind, tugging on heartstrings rather than applying reason and logic.
Dr. Foxy, Morris Dancer has no diversity training. Morris Dancer needs no diversity training.
[+5 fantasy points to anyone who gets the reference, from which almost all the words have been changed].
Aristotle's Rhetoric - logos, pathos and ethos - should be read and understood by all political leaflet writers.
Pathos works - "imagine it was your own mother who ...." Logos gives spurious legitimacy but is boring and unconvincing except to the already convinced. Ethos is the last resort. "Experts say ..." "The Government says ..." "Decent people ..."
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Yep. Imagine Damian Green with a touch of aristocratic class.
A business associate of mine knows someone who worked at a Rolls Royce dealership through which Clark was buying a new Rolls....he apparently ordered it with all these special tailor made extras then when it was delivered brazenly said "I don't want it any more and I'm not paying for it".
Clark was also famous for enjoying humiliating waiters and refusing to give any tips....the latter (though not the former) quite unusual in the Mayfair circles he moved in.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve heard of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
You are joking? He even conceded himself that he was a cad over the 'Harkness' affair x 3!
"The Jewish lobby is very powerful not just in the Labour Party. One solution I’ve heard is that the Labour Party should aim for 50% Jewish MP’s and 51% shadow cabinet members with a proviso that the Shadow Foreign Minister and Defence Minister be Jewish. A more radical view from some is that the Party should impose a cap on Muslim members so it is never more than the Jewish quota."
"Obviously their loyalty is to Israel than to Labour party, Labour members or working class. They would do anything to perpetuate the apartheid regime of Israel! History would judge them the way it would judge people and regimes who supported South Africa and designated Mandela a terrorist."
"The anti-semitism 'problem' also can be solved by simply having all MP's declare when they are running for office, or seeking re-election if they are a 'friend of Israel'"
Barnesian would no doubt claim they are all Tory trolls...
Point of order. The article is in the Independent not the Guardian.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve heard of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
You are joking? He even conceded himself that he was a cad over the 'Harkness' affair x 3!
I believe his wife out it a little more forthrightly than that!
Mr. Barnesian, imagine my mother thought you were entirely incorrect.
That's an irrelevance. My mother, whilst delightful, is frequently wrong. And I haven't contracted out my critical faculties to her, or anyone else. Why anyone would not seek to employ their powers of reason when considering a matter is beyond me.
I agree that ethos is lame. Not quite as lame as pathos, though.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
His father was Kenneth Clark, art historian and the first chairman of ITV who became the presenter of 'Civilisation', a wonderful 1960s colour series about European civilisation, which is currently available on BBC iPlayer.
If the Commissioner says Hunts error was not a big deal, then fine, but it looks incompetent even if it is not.
So, having been away from the internet most of the day and seeing only the BBC headline 'May hits back at Labour over Windrush landing cards' has the government managed to solve the mess it's in, draw Labour into the mess, or deflect from it, or none of the above?
If the Commissioner says Hunts error was not a big deal, then fine, but it looks incompetent even if it is not.
So, having been away from the internet most of the day and seeing only the BBC headline 'May hits back at Labour over Windrush landing cards' has the government managed to solve the mess it's in, draw Labour into the mess, or deflect from it, or none of the above?
The PM pointed out that a crucial decision was taken in 2009, when Labour were in government.
The latest Labour spin line is "Yes, the Tories should have fixed our cockup after they came to power. They didn't. Their fault..."
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve heard of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
You are joking? He even conceded himself that he was a cad over the 'Harkness' affair x 3!
I believe his wife out it a little more forthrightly than that!
IIRC Jane did refer to Alan using the 'B' word but didn't she also support her husband considering the ladies to be at fault?
I know how well thought of Khan and Trudeau are on here after all so I’d thought I post this *innocent face*
I’m a big fan of Trudeau. A convert to FPTP.
PBTories for Trudeau? Who would have thought it? Him keeping FPTP was one of his more side eye worthy decisions IMO.
Certainly it was one of those decisions that looks oh so convenient now that he has won without it, and the explanation for lacking agreement on what to replace it with didn't hold much water, since that never prevented promising to get rid of it in the first place.
I was mostly worried people despondent about Obama not being president were going to over egg Trudeau (and later Macron).
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
He was the ultimate proof that women have terrible taste in men.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve heard of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
You are joking? He even conceded himself that he was a cad over the 'Harkness' affair x 3!
I said I’ve heard of him, not that I knew that much about him! I’m googling the Harkness affair right now for a start!
Re the BBC and The Telegraph’s reporting of PMQs from your earlier post, the BBC’s article on their website seems pretty fair to me.
I know how well thought of Khan and Trudeau are on here after all so I’d thought I post this *innocent face*
I’m a big fan of Trudeau. A convert to FPTP.
PBTories for Trudeau? Who would have thought it? Him keeping FPTP was one of his more side eye worthy decisions IMO.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Very odd I agree. Some unconscious bias going on I think.
But I had a similar reaction at work. I would sometimes be accused of being ruthless because I would point out facts - unshorn of emotion - and why that meant that certain - difficult - action needed to be taken. It was as if people expected me as a woman to focus on touchy feely emotional stuff.
Reminds me of a bit where the CEO of General Motors, a woman, was in some hot water over cars causing deaths, and there were at least some instances of pundits criticising her stock CEO response on the basis that 'She's a mom' and thus expecting more, well, emotion out of it. As the comic reporting on it put it 'Right, because everyone knows people without kids don't give a shit when 13 people die'.
If the Commissioner says Hunts error was not a big deal, then fine, but it looks incompetent even if it is not.
So, having been away from the internet most of the day and seeing only the BBC headline 'May hits back at Labour over Windrush landing cards' has the government managed to solve the mess it's in, draw Labour into the mess, or deflect from it, or none of the above?
The PM pointed out that a crucial decision was taken in 2009, when Labour were in government.
The latest Labour spin line is "Yes, the Tories should have fixed our cockup after they came to power. They didn't. Their fault..."
Bit weak, that. Particularly when the narrative, rightly, has been so hostile on the govnerment's position, it certainly undermines at least part of the partisan angle.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
He was the ultimate proof that women have terrible taste in men.
A friend of mine is a lot like Alan Clark*.
Absolute bastard, but women like him.
*Even got a Douglas at Christ Church, Oxford, tried his hand at law, realised it wasn't for him.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
He also had 2 Alsatians, with Nazi names.
He was certainly a larger than life character, and quite disinhibited. I do wonder whether this was in part due to his slow growing Brain Tumour in his frontal lobe. Certainly this could explain one of his last appearances on Newsnight, when he advocated extrajudicial death squads as a way to bring peace to Northern Ireland.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve heard of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
You are joking? He even conceded himself that he was a cad over the 'Harkness' affair x 3!
I said I’ve heard of him, not that I knew that much about him! I’m googling the Harkness affair right now for a start!
Re the BBC and The Telegraph’s reporting of PMQs from your earlier post, the BBC’s article on their website seems pretty fair to me.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
He also had 2 Alsatians, with Nazi names.
He was certainly a larger than life character, and quite disinhibited. I do wonder whether this was in part due to his slow growing Brain Tumour in his frontal lobe. Certainly this could explain one of his last appearances on Newsnight, when he advocated extrajudicial death squads as a way to bring peace to Northern Ireland.
Alan Clark was a shock jock. He used to say outrageous things just for the look on the face of people he had outraged.
Harriet Line - @HarriLine: Government suffers its first defeat in the House of Lords over the EU (Withdrawal) Bill after peers vote in favour of a customs union amendment by 348 to 225
Some defeats are inevitable. Ultimately all accept the Commons has primacy, so it's about how far can May hold her people together, and how far are some Lords willing to take this.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
Mr Clark said: 'I deserve to be horsewhipped. I have changed my ways and I am now a reformed character.'
Earlier, Mr Clark said horsewhipping would be a fitting punishment because 'it's nice and old fashioned'. He then admitted with characteristic understatement: 'I probably have a different sense of morality to most people.'
It was a different time, the 90s. I feel unfortunate to have missed it in the first instance, though if memory serves there was a whole piece on it on the first HIGNFY compilation, as I certainly recall seeing Ian Hislop recounting the story in animated fashion.
A friend of mine* was in a relationship, concurrently he was sleeping her sister, and her sister in law.
He managed to keep it up (fnarr fnarr) until he couldn't remember which of the three he had invited away for a weekend away at a wedding. Turns out he had invited all three.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
He also had 2 Alsatians, with Nazi names.
He was certainly a larger than life character, and quite disinhibited. I do wonder whether this was in part due to his slow growing Brain Tumour in his frontal lobe. Certainly this could explain one of his last appearances on Newsnight, when he advocated extrajudicial death squads as a way to bring peace to Northern Ireland.
Nazi names? Blimey.
I don’t even know what say about his solution to bringing peace in Northern Ireland. It sounds like he was always an oddball though.
BBC News Report not good for the govt so like the Radio report Pulpstar mentioned.
Mr. Barnesian, imagine my mother thought you were entirely incorrect.
That's an irrelevance. My mother, whilst delightful, is frequently wrong. And I haven't contracted out my critical faculties to her, or anyone else. Why anyone would not seek to employ their powers of reason when considering a matter is beyond me.
I agree that ethos is lame. Not quite as lame as pathos, though.
Ah. I thought we were talking about persuading others (Aristotle's Rhetoric) where pathos frequently works better than logos.
If you're talking about persuading yourself, logos works every time. We decide on emotion or prejudice, then justify it to ourselves with dubious logic which only works on ourselves.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
Mr Clark said: 'I deserve to be horsewhipped. I have changed my ways and I am now a reformed character.'
Earlier, Mr Clark said horsewhipping would be a fitting punishment because 'it's nice and old fashioned'. He then admitted with characteristic understatement: 'I probably have a different sense of morality to most people.'
It was a different time, the 90s. I feel unfortunate to have missed it in the first instance, though if memory serves there was a whole piece on it on the first HIGNFY compilation, as I certainly recall seeing Ian Hislop recounting the story in animated fashion.
I can imagine Hislop and Merton having a lot of fun with that story.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Yep. Imagine Damian Green with a touch of aristocratic class.
A business associate of mine knows someone who worked at a Rolls Royce dealership through which Clark was buying a new Rolls....he apparently ordered it with all these special tailor made extras then when it was delivered brazenly said "I don't want it any more and I'm not paying for it".
Clark was also famous for enjoying humiliating waiters and refusing to give any tips....the latter (though not the former) quite unusual in the Mayfair circles he moved in.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Yep. Imagine Damian Green with a touch of aristocratic class.
A business associate of mine knows someone who worked at a Rolls Royce dealership through which Clark was buying a new Rolls....he apparently ordered it with all these special tailor made extras then when it was delivered brazenly said "I don't want it any more and I'm not paying for it".
Clark was also famous for enjoying humiliating waiters and refusing to give any tips....the latter (though not the former) quite unusual in the Mayfair circles he moved in.
Sounds like a prize arsehole.
Even though he lived in a castle and he and his father gave themselves airs, there was nothing remotely aristocratic about him. His grandfather made the family money, my dears, in trade!
Clark may have thought himself upper crust but in his showing off, ostentatious philandering and rudeness to people he considered beneath him he was behaving very vulgarly. Rather than aristocratically.
Mr. Barnesian, I agree with you that many times conclusions are reached by gut instinct and then rationalised.
Pathos may work for persuading others, but for me it's the exact opposite. Guilt-tripping is a rancid tactic that makes me recoil.
There is a wonderful quote in the film The Big Chill. Two of the friends are arguing about which is more important to people: sex or rationalisation.
One friend says "Sex, of course".
And the other replies: "Really? Have you ever gone a week without sex?"
"Yes, of course."
"OK. Have you ever gone a week without rationalising something?"
End of argument.
Pathos is often misunderstood, IMO. It should not about guilt tripping. But if you want to make people change something they are doing they don't just need to understand with the brain why, they also need to feel in their heart why they need to do something. You cannot, as the great Edmund Burke put it, reason people into doing good.
Faisal seems a bit excited about this 'thumping majority'. Pace yourself man, until we see if they dare do the same if(once) the Commons pings it back. Even a government defeat, while interesting, is not immediately significant if it is merely the first part of some parliamentary ping pong which the Lords then back down on.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Yep. Imagine Damian Green with a touch of aristocratic class.
A business associate of mine knows someone who worked at a Rolls Royce dealership through which Clark was buying a new Rolls....he apparently ordered it with all these special tailor made extras then when it was delivered brazenly said "I don't want it any more and I'm not paying for it".
Clark was also famous for enjoying humiliating waiters and refusing to give any tips....the latter (though not the former) quite unusual in the Mayfair circles he moved in.
Sounds like a prize arsehole.
Even though he lived in a castle and he and his father gave themselves airs, there was nothing remotely aristocratic about him. His grandfather made the family money, my dears, in trade!
Clark may have thought himself upper crust but in his showing off, ostentatious philandering and rudeness to people he considered beneath him he was behaving very vulgarly. Rather than aristocratically.
His diaries, though, are a very good read.
I could never understand why Clark thought himself as aristocratic. Surely his surname alone makes clear that he was descended from some Bob Cratchit figure.
Every living former cabinet secretary voted against the government on the customs union this afternoon (Lords Armstrong, Butler, Wilson, Turnbull and O'Donnell)
Lord Kerr, who proposed the amendment, is a former chief civil servant at the Foreign Office. He was joined in voting against the government by his two successors, Lord Jay and Lord Ricketts
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Yep. Imagine Damian Green with a touch of aristocratic class.
A business associate of mine knows someone who worked at a Rolls Royce dealership through which Clark was buying a new Rolls....he apparently ordered it with all these special tailor made extras then when it was delivered brazenly said "I don't want it any more and I'm not paying for it".
Clark was also famous for enjoying humiliating waiters and refusing to give any tips....the latter (though not the former) quite unusual in the Mayfair circles he moved in.
Sounds like a prize arsehole.
Even though he lived in a castle and he and his father gave themselves airs, there was nothing remotely aristocratic about him. His grandfather made the family money, my dears, in trade!
Clark may have thought himself upper crust but in his showing off, ostentatious philandering and rudeness to people he considered beneath him he was behaving very vulgarly. Rather than aristocratically.
His diaries, though, are a very good read.
I could never understand why Clark thought himself as aristocratic. Surely his surname alone makes clear that he was descended from some Bob Cratchit figure.
Like too many people with money in the 80's and 90's he thought (wrongly) that having lots of money gave him class.
His brother, Colin, worked on The Prince and The Showgirl, the only film with both Laurence Olivier and Marilyn Monroe. He wrote a very good diary about that too. Arthur Miller does not come out of it well.
And if they do she is implicitly calling them cowards. Which may be true, but I wonder how many 'privately agree' and if it is as many as tell her they agree. If they won't do it publicly, it is immaterial.
At the least his PM ambitions seem shot. The defence is either 'I (or my accountant) cannot handle simple adminstrative tasks' or 'it's no big deal', neither of which looks great.
He's been surprisingly steady and, as far as I can recall, not getting a level of antipathy you'd think for a longstanding Health Secretary ( I think Foxy has said he is not the worst they have had, for instance), but we shall see what the Commissioner thinks.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Yep. Imagine Damian Green with a touch of aristocratic class.
A business associate of mine knows someone who worked at a Rolls Royce dealership through which Clark was buying a new Rolls....he apparently ordered it with all these special tailor made extras then when it was delivered brazenly said "I don't want it any more and I'm not paying for it".
Clark was also famous for enjoying humiliating waiters and refusing to give any tips....the latter (though not the former) quite unusual in the Mayfair circles he moved in.
Sounds like a prize arsehole.
Even though he lived in a castle and he and his father gave themselves airs, there was nothing remotely aristocratic about him. His grandfather made the family money, my dears, in trade!
Clark may have thought himself upper crust but in his showing off, ostentatious philandering and rudeness to people he considered beneath him he was behaving very vulgarly. Rather than aristocratically.
His diaries, though, are a very good read.
I could never understand why Clark thought himself as aristocratic. Surely his surname alone makes clear that he was descended from some Bob Cratchit figure.
Listened to the news report of PMQs - bad for the govt I'm afraid (R5L)
Yes the ,6 news on BBC the same.
Thats the end of that subject then.
So were the landing cards shredded by the same administration that brought in the requirement to use them or not? We know when the decision was made to shred, but if the actual shredding and approval for the shredding to go ahead was done by the same administration that made those documents relevant then we are on the train from mere callous to malicious.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
He also had 2 Alsatians, with Nazi names.
He was certainly a larger than life character, and quite disinhibited. I do wonder whether this was in part due to his slow growing Brain Tumour in his frontal lobe. Certainly this could explain one of his last appearances on Newsnight, when he advocated extrajudicial death squads as a way to bring peace to Northern Ireland.
Clark also frequently and approvingly referred to 'Wolf' (AH) in his diaries, often aspiring to his man of destiny qualities. His 'Barbarossa' had the unusual proposition that Hitler was in fact a strategic genius and was let down by his ineffectual generals.
He was a fantastically entertaining writer and character; our contemporary Fascist mountebanks aren't a patch on him. I suspect his Nazi sympathies were more or less sincere, and the 'it's all a joke, I'm just tweaking the noses of the prim' stuff was the falsehood.
A good summary of the case for the prosecution against the government on the Windrush affair (though it would have been much better as a short comment piece):
Listened to the news report of PMQs - bad for the govt I'm afraid (R5L)
Yes the ,6 news on BBC the same.
Thats the end of that subject then.
So were the landing cards shredded by the same administration that brought in the requirement to use them or not? We know when the decision was made to shred, but if the actual shredding and approval for the shredding to go ahead was done by the same administration that made those documents relevant then we are on the train from mere callous to malicious.
In future GDPR might involve more data destruction because you’re not supposed to hold on to information on the off chance you might need it in future. Lawyers delight of course being cynical.
Faisal seems a bit excited about this 'thumping majority'. Pace yourself man, until we see if they dare do the same if(once) the Commons pings it back. Even a government defeat, while interesting, is not immediately significant if it is merely the first part of some parliamentary ping pong which the Lords then back down on.
Why would the Lords back down on something as important as this?
The Government can use the Parliament Acts to reintroduce the bill in the next session (this is an extra long session) and force it through but that will take until after March 2019.
The Lords have resisted the Commons on seven occasions requiring the use of the Parliament Acts:
Government of Ireland Act 1914 Welsh Church Act 1914 Parliament Act 1949 War Crimes Act 1991 European Parliament Elections Act 1999 Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000 Hunting Act 2004
From what I've been reading (which may admittedly be biased) the Tesla factory sounds a basketcase at the moment. Cars being delivered to dealers to be reworked, staff moving off other projects onto the production line, and uality control all over the place.
They may fix it, but their scale-up plan must be in shreds.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
Listened to the news report of PMQs - bad for the govt I'm afraid (R5L)
Yes the ,6 news on BBC the same.
Thats the end of that subject then.
So were the landing cards shredded by the same administration that brought in the requirement to use them or not? We know when the decision was made to shred, but if the actual shredding and approval for the shredding to go ahead was done by the same administration that made those documents relevant then we are on the train from mere callous to malicious.
I am minded of my local MP Sheerman's defence of the very early PPI deal that has horribly nobbled our local Acute Trust. Though Labour have the final go ahead, the responsibility in his eyes was on Ken Clarke, who drew up the plans.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
@Cyclefree It’s really odd someone said you argue like a man, I’ve never thought the way people argue could be distinguished into male and female styles.
Alan Clark famously said (referring to Maggie Thatcher) that it was impossible to win an argument with a woman - the female tactic being to keep going round and round in circles until the man gets fed up and accepts defeat. Like many (most?) married men I can definitely see the grain of truth in that though it was a typically sexist and simplistic comment from AC.
I’ve of Alan Clark before, I didn’t know he was sexist though.
A pretty horrible human being, I imagine, but a great diarist.
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
Wow.
Alan Clark was a charmer.
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
In other words, do whatever is necessary to get cars out of their new factory, which has a massive backlog of orders and lots of teething problems with the scale-up of production.
Faisal seems a bit excited about this 'thumping majority'. Pace yourself man, until we see if they dare do the same if(once) the Commons pings it back. Even a government defeat, while interesting, is not immediately significant if it is merely the first part of some parliamentary ping pong which the Lords then back down on.
Why would the Lords back down on something as important as this?
The Government can use the Parliament Acts to reintroduce the bill in the next session (this is an extra long session) and force it through but that will take until after March 2019.
The Lords have resisted the Commons on seven occasions requiring the use of the Parliament Acts:
Government of Ireland Act 1914 Welsh Church Act 1914 Parliament Act 1949 War Crimes Act 1991 European Parliament Elections Act 1999 Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000 Hunting Act 2004
This may be the eighth and most important.
Whereas in practice what will happen is it will keep being sent back to the Lords until they approve it, under a three line Commons whip. If no Bill passes before March, we don’t Remain in the EU, we crash out.
A good summary of the case for the prosecution against the government on the Windrush affair (though it would have been much better as a short comment piece):
The key point is number 7: In addition, various actors in the migration sector issued clear warning to the government that the hostile environment policies would generate difficulties for groups like the Windrush migrants and others - difficulties just like the ones that have hit recent headlines.
He states that without evidence. He might be right, but since it is the crucial point, some evidence is required.
The other point, which no one except me seems to have noticed, is that the problem should have shown up from 2008. Why didn't it? Or perhaps it did, but wasn't taken heed of?
A friend of mine* was in a relationship, concurrently he was sleeping her sister, and her sister in law.
He managed to keep it up (fnarr fnarr) until he couldn't remember which of the three he had invited away for a weekend away at a wedding. Turns out he had invited all three.
Faisal seems a bit excited about this 'thumping majority'. Pace yourself man, until we see if they dare do the same if(once) the Commons pings it back. Even a government defeat, while interesting, is not immediately significant if it is merely the first part of some parliamentary ping pong which the Lords then back down on.
Why would the Lords back down on something as important as this?
The Government can use the Parliament Acts to reintroduce the bill in the next session (this is an extra long session) and force it through but that will take until after March 2019.
The Lords have resisted the Commons on seven occasions requiring the use of the Parliament Acts:
Government of Ireland Act 1914 Welsh Church Act 1914 Parliament Act 1949 War Crimes Act 1991 European Parliament Elections Act 1999 Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000 Hunting Act 2004
This may be the eighth and most important.
It might, it is a very important issue, and as I've said before if there are MPs who think it will be disastrous (not merely sub optimal) to go down the route we are, they absolutely should do something even if they pay a political price for it like a Corbyn government.
That;s why I said earlier the real question is how far are all the Lords willing to go on this. We won't really know until the Commons send it back, and I cannot see how the Commons won't want to test that out by sending it back unamended, rather than given in first.
Michael Gove is going to be last man standing. If there’s a contest in the next 18 months he’s got to be the favourite.
Nah, even his fans think he is a c***.
It won’t be Michael Gove for a very simple and blunt reason, he’s pissed off far too many people in the Tory party. He’s annoyed people like David Davis with his actions over Brexit to the point David Davis contemplated resigning over Gove’s actions.
The Cameroon wing which has substantial numbers in Parliament still hasn’t forgiven Gove for going against Cameron in the referendum. When David Cameron goes pheasant shooting he likes to name the pheasants Michael Gove because when he shoots the pheasants called Gove it makes Cameron feel better. Pathetic and childish from David Cameron? Maybe, but it does display the animus for Gove.
Gove has also annoyed supporters of Boris Johnson when Gove ended Boris Johnson’s leadership ambitions in 2016, Ben Wallace, a Boris supporter, publicly announced he wanted to go all Game of Thrones and remove Gove’s penis. As an aside Ben Wallace is tipped to join the cabinet in the next major reshuffle.
You simply cannot annoy people to that level and expect to become Leader. When I said Michael Gove was a lot like Judas Iscariot the retort I was given was ‘Gove’s nothing like Judas, Judas had the decency to commit suicide after his betrayal.’
Making changes and sending this back is part of the job. It's how far they will defy the will of the elected chamber which is the relevant point (and at what point the elected chamberblinks first). It might be all the way, but we shall see.
A good summary of the case for the prosecution against the government on the Windrush affair (though it would have been much better as a short comment piece):
The key point is number 7: In addition, various actors in the migration sector issued clear warning to the government that the hostile environment policies would generate difficulties for groups like the Windrush migrants and others - difficulties just like the ones that have hit recent headlines.
He states that without evidence. He might be right, but since it is the crucial point, some evidence is required.
Yes, 2013/2014 was not pre-internet so I am sure there must be lots of links out there...
Reading Corbyn's comments from the time about the bill, his main concern appeared to be the removal of citizenship from terrorists.
It might, it is a very important issue, and as I've said before if there are MPs who think it will be disastrous (not merely sub optimal) to go down the route we are, they absolutely should do something even if they pay a political price for it like a Corbyn government.
That;s why I said earlier the real question is how far are all the Lords willing to go on this. We won't really know until the Commons send it back, and I cannot see how the Commons won't want to test that out by sending it back unamended, rather than given in first.
We're not there yet, because this particular motion only requires the government to produce a statement to parliament. Of course, it might be that more proscriptive amendments will be passed by the Lords later.
Comments
The sort of man who might be described (by those of my mother’s generation) as NSIT - Not Safe in Taxis.
https://twitter.com/B_PellScholes/status/986644200086220801
PS - Theresa if you need to create a batch of new working peers I'm happy to serve, though I don't want no minor peerage, I want a Royal Dukedom.
The Duke of Sheffield or the Duke of Yorkshire will do me.
“I was fighting for a vote and then I won the vote, and heaven knows I’m miserable now.”
Mr. Eagles, once the octo-lemur exclusively occupy the Upper House, this sort of thing will never happen again.
Of course in the high days of the Herd, this could be frowned upon as being beastly to the weak and feeble females of that species.
Pathos works - "imagine it was your own mother who ...."
Logos gives spurious legitimacy but is boring and unconvincing except to the already convinced.
Ethos is the last resort. "Experts say ..." "The Government says ..." "Decent people ..."
A business associate of mine knows someone who worked at a Rolls Royce dealership through which Clark was buying a new Rolls....he apparently ordered it with all these special tailor made extras then when it was delivered brazenly said "I don't want it any more and I'm not paying for it".
Clark was also famous for enjoying humiliating waiters and refusing to give any tips....the latter (though not the former) quite unusual in the Mayfair circles he moved in.
There is still a risk of parliament triggering a complete disaster, with no deal.
A deal = Temporary Brexit in name only.
Brexit is dead.
That's an irrelevance. My mother, whilst delightful, is frequently wrong. And I haven't contracted out my critical faculties to her, or anyone else. Why anyone would not seek to employ their powers of reason when considering a matter is beyond me.
I agree that ethos is lame. Not quite as lame as pathos, though.
So, having been away from the internet most of the day and seeing only the BBC headline 'May hits back at Labour over Windrush landing cards' has the government managed to solve the mess it's in, draw Labour into the mess, or deflect from it, or none of the above?
The latest Labour spin line is "Yes, the Tories should have fixed our cockup after they came to power. They didn't. Their fault..."
I was mostly worried people despondent about Obama not being president were going to over egg Trudeau (and later Macron).
You have to admire any man who manages to have affairs with a woman and two of her daughters, concurrently.
Re the BBC and The Telegraph’s reporting of PMQs from your earlier post, the BBC’s article on their website seems pretty fair to me.
Absolute bastard, but women like him.
*Even got a Douglas at Christ Church, Oxford, tried his hand at law, realised it wasn't for him.
He was certainly a larger than life character, and quite disinhibited. I do wonder whether this was in part due to his slow growing Brain Tumour in his frontal lobe. Certainly this could explain one of his last appearances on Newsnight, when he advocated extrajudicial death squads as a way to bring peace to Northern Ireland.
What....that whole story is totally insane.
Earlier, Mr Clark said horsewhipping would be a fitting punishment because 'it's nice and old fashioned'. He then admitted with characteristic understatement: 'I probably have a different sense of morality to most people.'
It was a different time, the 90s. I feel unfortunate to have missed it in the first instance, though if memory serves there was a whole piece on it on the first HIGNFY compilation, as I certainly recall seeing Ian Hislop recounting the story in animated fashion.
He managed to keep it up (fnarr fnarr) until he couldn't remember which of the three he had invited away for a weekend away at a wedding. Turns out he had invited all three.
*No really, a friend of mine.
I don’t even know what say about his solution to bringing peace in Northern Ireland. It sounds like he was always an oddball though.
BBC News Report not good for the govt so like the Radio report Pulpstar mentioned.
If you're talking about persuading yourself, logos works every time. We decide on emotion or prejudice, then justify it to ourselves with dubious logic which only works on ourselves.
I love Jane Clark, she was a true snob, this is what she said of the Harkness affairs.
"If you bed people of below-stairs class, they will go to the papers."
Pathos may work for persuading others, but for me it's the exact opposite. Guilt-tripping is a rancid tactic that makes me recoil.
Clark may have thought himself upper crust but in his showing off, ostentatious philandering and rudeness to people he considered beneath him he was behaving very vulgarly. Rather than aristocratically.
His diaries, though, are a very good read.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/986654810236694536
Plus the Duke of Wellington
One friend says "Sex, of course".
And the other replies: "Really? Have you ever gone a week without sex?"
"Yes, of course."
"OK. Have you ever gone a week without rationalising something?"
End of argument.
Pathos is often misunderstood, IMO. It should not about guilt tripping. But if you want to make people change something they are doing they don't just need to understand with the brain why, they also need to feel in their heart why they need to do something. You cannot, as the great Edmund Burke put it, reason people into doing good.
https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/status/986655760095555587
Every living former cabinet secretary voted against the government on the customs union this afternoon (Lords Armstrong, Butler, Wilson, Turnbull and O'Donnell)
Lord Kerr, who proposed the amendment, is a former chief civil servant at the Foreign Office. He was joined in voting against the government by his two successors, Lord Jay and Lord Ricketts
His brother, Colin, worked on The Prince and The Showgirl, the only film with both Laurence Olivier and Marilyn Monroe. He wrote a very good diary about that too. Arthur Miller does not come out of it well.
It could be fun with all the songs.
He's been surprisingly steady and, as far as I can recall, not getting a level of antipathy you'd think for a longstanding Health Secretary ( I think Foxy has said he is not the worst they have had, for instance), but we shall see what the Commissioner thinks.
As ridiculous as some rules can be, I feel like they might discover many people have different views on what constitutes ridiculousness.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43809674
He was a fantastically entertaining writer and character; our contemporary Fascist mountebanks aren't a patch on him. I suspect his Nazi sympathies were more or less sincere, and the 'it's all a joke, I'm just tweaking the noses of the prim' stuff was the falsehood.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/986655825954529280
The Government can use the Parliament Acts to reintroduce the bill in the next session (this is an extra long session) and force it through but that will take until after March 2019.
The Lords have resisted the Commons on seven occasions requiring the use of the Parliament Acts:
Government of Ireland Act 1914
Welsh Church Act 1914
Parliament Act 1949
War Crimes Act 1991
European Parliament Elections Act 1999
Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000
Hunting Act 2004
This may be the eighth and most important.
They may fix it, but their scale-up plan must be in shreds.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/986631015509749760
He states that without evidence. He might be right, but since it is the crucial point, some evidence is required.
The other point, which no one except me seems to have noticed, is that the problem should have shown up from 2008. Why didn't it? Or perhaps it did, but wasn't taken heed of?
That;s why I said earlier the real question is how far are all the Lords willing to go on this. We won't really know until the Commons send it back, and I cannot see how the Commons won't want to test that out by sending it back unamended, rather than given in first.
These are not marginal/tidying-up amendments.
Reading Corbyn's comments from the time about the bill, his main concern appeared to be the removal of citizenship from terrorists.