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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the sexual harassment scandal continues to dominate politic

SystemSystem Posts: 12,258
edited November 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the sexual harassment scandal continues to dominate politics PB cartoonist, Marf, gives her take

Marf Tweets at @marfcartoonist

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,912
    First to take offence.
  • Rather bears out Cyclefree's comments on previous thread.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720
    The MP who says "If only you were a boy" presumably went to boarding school.
  • Once again I'm glad I never went into politics.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    FPT

    This farce is rapidly approaching the situation where a man claims sexual harrasement against a woman saying she asked to have sex with him.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,777
    @Morris_dancer from the previous thread

    Supposedly the next agreement is treating Ferrari as an equal to the other teams rather than as something special (as is currently the case). I reckon Ferrari's behaviour with the media (or complete lack of it) has a lot to do with it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,072
    edited November 2017
    Mr. Eek, hmm, that must be post-2021, for which I've read they have a veto.

    It would actually explain their dummy-spitting. My view would be they can accept equality, or sod off. The lopsided, unfair financial and regulatory approach currently in operation is indefensible.

    Edited extra bit: and thanks for that info.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Great cartoon Marf!

    Glad to have you back.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,263
    FPT:
    brendan16 said:

    RobD said:

    brendan16 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Harriet Harman on This Week.

    I don't think Andrew Neil will be inviting her back - she has just upset him big time.
    What did she say?
    She was saying how people always thought she had no sense of humour because she objected to tasteless humour.

    She then quoted a joke she objected to at a local student union many years ago - and claimed people 'like Andrew (Neil)' would have found it funny and accused her of having a sense of humour by pass for objecting to it.

    She then told the joke - how do you fit 100 Jewish people in a taxi being the opening line. I won't give the punchline but it involved an ashtray.

    Neil then got very angry with her to put it mildly! Indeed she was annoying him the whole show as she wouldn't shut up and allow him to move on to the next segment.

    It didn't help that earlier in the show she announced that she was now a fully paid up member of the Jezza fan club.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,397
    The problem isn't so much a government of sleaze. This one doesn't seem any worse than the others on this score at least. It's the sense that politicians are fiddling - in more than way - while Rome burns.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    brendan16 said:

    RobD said:

    brendan16 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Harriet Harman on This Week.

    I don't think Andrew Neil will be inviting her back - she has just upset him big time.
    What did she say?
    She was saying how people always thought she had no sense of humour because she objected to tasteless humour.

    She then quoted a joke she objected to at a local student union many years ago - and claimed people 'like Andrew (Neil)' would have found it funny and accused her of having a sense of humour by pass for objecting to it.

    She then told the joke - how do you fit 100 Jewish people in a taxi being the opening line. I won't give the punchline but it involved an ashtray.

    Neil then got very angry with her to put it mildly! Indeed she was annoying him the whole show as she wouldn't shut up and allow him to move on to the next segment.

    It didn't help that earlier in the show she announced that she was now a fully paid up member of the Jezza fan club.
    Given the high positions that Harman held in the Labour Party when certain allegations were being made, she would be better advised to keep well away from the outrage bus at the moment. But she just can't help herself - like many of her colleagues. It only reinforces the impression of hypocrisy.
  • Petronella Wyatt.

    Fckn hell.

    She and Boris deserved every ounce of each other.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    One difficulty in all this is the level of proof. My father was on a jury in a case where someone was accused of indecent assault for pressing against someone on a crowded Tube train. She claimed it was unnecessarily close, he claimed it wasn't. Without video footage in those days, the jury felt they couldn't decide, and acquitted him. Similar issues arise with all kinds of brief physical contact, cf. the "was it perhaps the tableloth rather than his hand?" defence reported yesterday. And when it moves on to verbal comments, it's even harder - without being privy to the whole exchange and the exact tone, the same remark can sound like anything from genuinely harmless to seriously intrusive.

    In most contexts, innocence is assumed, but in the current climate there is a tendency for guilt to be assumed, not least because in a political environment there are people with a direct interest in assuming the worst. Possibly the best way to guess the truth is to look for multiple reports - Weinstein is widely regarded as probably guilty because there are so many similar accounts.
  • Petronella Wyatt.

    Fckn hell.

    She and Boris deserved every ounce of each other.

    Have I missed something?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,263

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    brendan16 said:

    RobD said:

    brendan16 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Harriet Harman on This Week.

    I don't think Andrew Neil will be inviting her back - she has just upset him big time.
    What did she say?
    She was saying how people always thought she had no sense of humour because she objected to tasteless humour.

    She then quoted a joke she objected to at a local student union many years ago - and claimed people 'like Andrew (Neil)' would have found it funny and accused her of having a sense of humour by pass for objecting to it.

    She then told the joke - how do you fit 100 Jewish people in a taxi being the opening line. I won't give the punchline but it involved an ashtray.

    Neil then got very angry with her to put it mildly! Indeed she was annoying him the whole show as she wouldn't shut up and allow him to move on to the next segment.

    It didn't help that earlier in the show she announced that she was now a fully paid up member of the Jezza fan club.
    Given the high positions that Harman held in the Labour Party when certain allegations were being made, she would be better advised to keep well away from the outrage bus at the moment. But she just can't help herself - like many of her colleagues. It only reinforces the impression of hypocrisy.
    In a way, such is the seriousness of the allegations involving Bex Bailey, the Labour Party is getting off lightly. The media can't really talk about it because, presumably, there will be a police investigation.
  • Petronella Wyatt.

    Fckn hell.

    She and Boris deserved every ounce of each other.

    Have I missed something?
    Last 5 minutes of today's Today programme.
  • There was an interview on 5 live last night with a bar maid of twenty years experience who said that you become used to dealing with inappropriate behaviour but commented that whenever a young man worked behind the bar he was targeted with every bit as much inappropriate behaviour by the women customers.

    Later a caller commented how he had held a door open for a female who said she was perfectly capable of opening the door herself and a couple of days later he received a call from his HR department and received a warning over his conduct.

    And now this morning 5 live had a report that Caroline Lucas wants compulsory training for MP's to teach them about consent.

    Also last night's 5 live alleged that Jeremy Corbyn has real questions to answer over Kelvin Hopkins both in his promotion to the Shadow Cabinet following the complaint of sexual abuse and that his Office covered it up until this week .

    I do not know where this will end as the genie is out of the bottle but it does make you despair that 'touching knees' is taking over the narrative when the narrative should focus on the serious accusations of rape and sexual assault.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844

    One difficulty in all this is the level of proof. My father was on a jury in a case where someone was accused of indecent assault for pressing against someone on a crowded Tube train. She claimed it was unnecessarily close, he claimed it wasn't. Without video footage in those days, the jury felt they couldn't decide, and acquitted him. Similar issues arise with all kinds of brief physical contact, cf. the "was it perhaps the tableloth rather than his hand?" defence reported yesterday. And when it moves on to verbal comments, it's even harder - without being privy to the whole exchange and the exact tone, the same remark can sound like anything from genuinely harmless to seriously intrusive.

    In most contexts, innocence is assumed, but in the current climate there is a tendency for guilt to be assumed, not least because in a political environment there are people with a direct interest in assuming the worst. Possibly the best way to guess the truth is to look for multiple reports - Weinstein is widely regarded as probably guilty because there are so many similar accounts.

    With multiple reports, what you can often get is people reinterpreting events to fit the prevailing narrative - which muddies the waters further. What they may have dismissed as inoffensive at the time can then get re-examined and they decide that it actually was offensive and thus make a complaint.

    And sadly you will get those who see an opportunity for personal gain and leap on the bandwagon - just as that fraudster did in the aftermath of Grenfell.

    No, I am not saying that anyone so far has made up an allegation of sexual abuse or assault - but I would not rule it out as a possibility.

    What we need to see is a culture where harassment and assault allegations can be reported without fear and that investigations are concluded swiftly and fairly for all involved. The problem with reporting things months or years after the events is that obtaining evidence gets harder and harder and thus findings of guilt are more difficult to obtain.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Petronella Wyatt.

    Fckn hell.

    She and Boris deserved every ounce of each other.

    Have I missed something?
    A story that has been public knowledge for 20 years?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Gosh - stonking services PMI today after yesterday's Manufacturing one this is pretty good.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited November 2017

    One difficulty in all this is the level of proof. My father was on a jury in a case where someone was accused of indecent assault for pressing against someone on a crowded Tube train. She claimed it was unnecessarily close, he claimed it wasn't. Without video footage in those days, the jury felt they couldn't decide, and acquitted him. Similar issues arise with all kinds of brief physical contact, cf. the "was it perhaps the tableloth rather than his hand?" defence reported yesterday. And when it moves on to verbal comments, it's even harder - without being privy to the whole exchange and the exact tone, the same remark can sound like anything from genuinely harmless to seriously intrusive.

    In most contexts, innocence is assumed, but in the current climate there is a tendency for guilt to be assumed, not least because in a political environment there are people with a direct interest in assuming the worst. Possibly the best way to guess the truth is to look for multiple reports - Weinstein is widely regarded as probably guilty because there are so many similar accounts.

    With multiple reports, what you can often get is people reinterpreting events to fit the prevailing narrative - which muddies the waters further. What they may have dismissed as inoffensive at the time can then get re-examined and they decide that it actually was offensive and thus make a complaint.

    And sadly you will get those who see an opportunity for personal gain and leap on the bandwagon - just as that fraudster did in the aftermath of Grenfell.

    No, I am not saying that anyone so far has made up an allegation of sexual abuse or assault - but I would not rule it out as a possibility.

    What we need to see is a culture where harassment and assault allegations can be reported without fear and that investigations are concluded swiftly and fairly for all involved. The problem with reporting things months or years after the events is that obtaining evidence gets harder and harder and thus findings of guilt are more difficult to obtain.
    The ridiculous thing is that this has now reached a stage where it becomes easy to make career destroying allegation without requiring any proof whatsover, and with no comeback to making false allegations. When an ill-judged remark or extremely minor level of (non sexual) contact (unless you define any contact between men and women as 'sexual') is now a resigning offence making allegations is easy, and a willing press will lap it up. And there is absolutely no way the "offence" can be challenged except by questioning the motives of the person making the allegation. But in politics every allegation of this level is likely to come with 'motives'.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844

    There was an interview on 5 live last night with a bar maid of twenty years experience who said that you become used to dealing with inappropriate behaviour but commented that whenever a young man worked behind the bar he was targeted with every bit as much inappropriate behaviour by the women customers.

    Later a caller commented how he had held a door open for a female who said she was perfectly capable of opening the door herself and a couple of days later he received a call from his HR department and received a warning over his conduct.

    And now this morning 5 live had a report that Caroline Lucas wants compulsory training for MP's to teach them about consent.

    Also last night's 5 live alleged that Jeremy Corbyn has real questions to answer over Kelvin Hopkins both in his promotion to the Shadow Cabinet following the complaint of sexual abuse and that his Office covered it up until this week .

    I do not know where this will end as the genie is out of the bottle but it does make you despair that 'touching knees' is taking over the narrative when the narrative should focus on the serious accusations of rape and sexual assault.

    Consent 'education' has forced its way in the induction process for most universities.

    The driving force for this has been the statistic (from the US) that 20% of female students experience non-consensual sexual contact during their time on campus.

    This statistic has been widely discredited and official figures show that universities are safer than the rest of society when it comes to these sorts of incidents. However the perception created by these false numbers has meant that it is now deemed necessary to 'teach people how not sexually assault'

    It is now part of our student culture - along with safe spaces, no platforming and restrictions on freedom of speech.

    Welcome to the new puritanism
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Sodom and Gomorrah con't

    We're confusing far too many issues here and are in danger of changing the relationships between men and women for the worse. I can see a time where the only dating will be online. Anything more traditional will require a lawyer present.

    What has happened with children where men are reluctant to even smile in their direction will soon apply to male/female contacts. Which man hasn't made a pass at a woman or vice versa? Sometimes they might read the signals wrongly but that shouldn't be a police matter or a case for dismissal.

    I was with my little niece at a fair recently and she was on a ride. When it finished she was left on her own because the man running the ride wouldn't pick her up and bring her to me. I had to clambour over the machinery and pick her up myself. I was embarrassed for him.

    In Italy and Spain and to a lesser extent France it's completely different. The females at the companies I work for hug you when they greet you link arms when they walk beside you kiss you when they like something you've done and go to sleep on you on airoplanes......

    ...And they love children. It's a nice cheerful environment to work in

    My Spanish producer tells what she considers the hilarious story of when she met the family of her Old Etonian English boyfriend. He shook hands with his Mother!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879
    The best guide to content is something published on youtube by Thames Valley Police. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,669
    Fallon resigned because politics is about power and it is damned tough. There's no room for fair when you're photographed eating a bacon sandwich badly. Same here. That's the game. It's not a game of dry objective merit. Vide BJ.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    alex. said:

    <

    The ridiculous thing is that this has now reached a stage where it becomes easy to make career destroying allegation without requiring any proof whatsover, and with no comeback to making false allegations. When an ill-judged remark or extremely minor level of (non sexual) contact (unless you define any contact between men and women as 'sexual') is now a resigning offence making allegations is easy, and a willing press will lap it up. And there is absolutely no way the "offence" can be challenged except by questioning the motives of the person making the allegation. But in politics every allegation of this level is likely to come with 'motives'.

    Quite so. I'm sure it is entirely coincidental that the person who lost the race for PM has made allegations against a prominent supporter of the person who won the race for PM, and whose fall weakens the PM. There could not possibly be any ulterior political motive behind this.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    The best guide to content is something published on youtube by Thames Valley Police. youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ

    :+1:

    I always urge those who seem to think that "No" means "Yes" to watch this.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056
    edited November 2017
    EPG said:

    Fallon resigned because politics is about power and it is damned tough. There's no room for fair when you're photographed eating a bacon sandwich badly. Same here. That's the game. It's not a game of dry objective merit. Vide BJ.

    Yes, hard to argue with that. Someone else called it "a rough trade" once and he wasn't wrong. As to whether we have anything approaching the full story of Fallon's departure, I don't know. The scheming of Williamson, the revenge of Leadsom, neither sound complete or plausible.

    There's been a lot of common sense talked on the whole topic and as part of a wider debate it's all very welcome. There's also been an element of "my side are bad, your side are worse" about it but that's par for the course.

    I'm going to devote some time to the Breeders Cup and wishing I was at the gorgeous Del Mar racecourse north of San Diego, one of the most beautiful places to watch racing in the world.

    I don't have any answers.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,081
    edited November 2017
    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    The best guide to content is something published on youtube by Thames Valley Police. youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ

    :+1:

    I always urge those who seem to think that "No" means "Yes" to watch this.
    That's all very well, but the 'scandal' has reached a different level, where mildly sexualised comments, or minor levels of contact are being held up to be hanging offences. Questions of consent are surely not designed for this.

    "I would like to make a slightly lewd joke, do you consent?"
    "OK"
    "[lewd joke]"
    "That's disgusting, i've changed my mind" (ps. I can now damage your career at any time).

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    EPG said:

    Fallon resigned because politics is about power and it is damned tough. There's no room for fair when you're photographed eating a bacon sandwich badly. Same here. That's the game. It's not a game of dry objective merit. Vide BJ.

    I suspect there is far more in the back catalogue for Fallon.
  • I take it that, in the light of the new prudery, the Court of Public Opinion is going to decide that Harriet Harman should be hounded out of the Labour Party for her tasteless remark some years ago that 'When a woman says No, she means No'. Clearly that belittled rape and was extremely offensive to survivors.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I can see how much you're enjoying this.

  • alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    How can Bercow order political parties around?
  • alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    If Fallon made a pass at Andrea Leadsom then his judgement isn't sound.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,937

    Mr. Eek, hmm, that must be post-2021, for which I've read they have a veto.

    It would actually explain their dummy-spitting. My view would be they can accept equality, or sod off. The lopsided, unfair financial and regulatory approach currently in operation is indefensible....

    Ferrari's threats perhaps fall into the same be careful what you wish for category as Mr Perez' latest demand, Mr.D...
    Perez: Force India must drop team orders now (Autosport)...

    Either could conceivably end up hoist on their own petard. Which might not be the occasion for uncontrollable grief.
  • stodge said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I can see how much you're enjoying this.

    That is out of order - the point I am making is that it is in all parties but until now the spotlight has not included labour
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,737
    edited November 2017
    This is all going to go away pretty soon. It will not change a single vote and everyone will get bored of it.

    That said, as a very definite alpha-beta male, I do find it extraordinary that some blokes feel they have the right to make sexually-charged comments to female colleagues and acquaintances. It really would not cross my mind to do it and I can see why the assumption that it is OK would annoy the hell out of many women.

    Should it be career-ending? That seems mightily OTT to me. But if you are going to do it, be prepared to be called out on it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,937

    This is all going to go away pretty soon. It will not change a single vote and everyone will get bored of it.

    That said, as a very definite alpha-beta male, I do find it extraordinary that some blokes feel they have the right to make sexually-charged comments to female colleagues and acquaintances. It really would not cross my mind to do it and I can see why the assumption that it is OK would annoy the hell out of many women.

    Should it be career-ending? That seems mightily OTT to me. But if you are going to do it, be prepared to be called out on it.

    I don't think it is. It is not only about politicians.
  • This is all going to go away pretty soon. It will not change a single vote and everyone will get bored of it.

    That said, as a very definite alpha-beta male, I do find it extraordinary that some blokes feel they have the right to make sexually-charged comments to female colleagues and acquaintances. It really would not cross my mind to do it and I can see why the assumption that it is OK would annoy the hell out of many women.

    Should it be career-ending? That seems mightily OTT to me. But if you are going to do it, be prepared to be called out on it.

    I do not think this is going away soon as more accusations come to light but it will depend on the severity and number of resignations or police charges
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108
    edited November 2017
    Roger said:

    If Fallon made a pass at Andrea Leadsom then his judgement isn't sound.

    vile sexist pig
  • Mr. B, been very impressed with Ocon this year. Had a small run in with Manor for part of last year, and has been fast and reliable this season.

    The only weak spot has been the conflict with Perez (particularly galling as I'd backed Perez each way to win Azerbaijan at 201, and it was very likely to have come off but for that stupid collision).
  • alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056

    stodge said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I can see how much you're enjoying this.

    That is out of order - the point I am making is that it is in all parties but until now the spotlight has not included labour
    Yes it has - there have been any number of allegations about Labour MPs, Councillors and Councils. The spotlight has intended turned on the Conservatives this week and clearly some of that Party's members aren't enjoying the scrutiny and are desperate to look elsewhere.

    Why do you think Fallon resigned ? Should Damian Green resign as well ?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587



    What we need to see is a culture where harassment and assault allegations can be reported without fear and that investigations are concluded swiftly and fairly for all involved. The problem with reporting things months or years after the events is that obtaining evidence gets harder and harder and thus findings of guilt are more difficult to obtain.

    Yes, I think that's right. The process could reasonably be initially confidential both ways, so that in grey areas the independent service could look into it without either the complainant getting publicity or the criticised person being instantly ruined. There could also, as you say, be cases where the complainant actually isn't sure whether the behaviour was really offensive or not, and discussing it with an advice service could be helpful.

    Obviously none of this applies where there's a clear case with evidence that a crime has been committed: just calling in the police is the right option there.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879
    alex. said:

    The best guide to content is something published on youtube by Thames Valley Police. youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ

    :+1:

    I always urge those who seem to think that "No" means "Yes" to watch this.
    That's all very well, but the 'scandal' has reached a different level, where mildly sexualised comments, or minor levels of contact are being held up to be hanging offences. Questions of consent are surely not designed for this.

    "I would like to make a slightly lewd joke, do you consent?"
    "OK"
    "[lewd joke]"
    "That's disgusting, i've changed my mind" (ps. I can now damage your career at any time).

    Well, lewd jokes are rarely funny, even in single sex company. Too many ‘comedians’, both professional and amateur, though, seem to think they are.

    However, having said that, when a student EVER so many years ago I had a summer job selling candy floss, and would occasioanly ask a group of girls.... never, IIRC one her own...... if they’d like a big pink one. That usually got a number of ‘horrified’ giggles and often a sale or two!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Eek, hmm, that must be post-2021, for which I've read they have a veto.

    It would actually explain their dummy-spitting. My view would be they can accept equality, or sod off. The lopsided, unfair financial and regulatory approach currently in operation is indefensible....

    Ferrari's threats perhaps fall into the same be careful what you wish for category as Mr Perez' latest demand, Mr.D...
    Perez: Force India must drop team orders now (Autosport)...

    Either could conceivably end up hoist on their own petard. Which might not be the occasion for uncontrollable grief.
    It’s clear that Liberty aren’t going to be afraid to call Ferrari out on their veto. In what other sport do the competitors get to decide the rules and the prize money?

    FOM and FIA should agree the regulations, with the former promoting the events and the latter running them.

    Teams can read the regulations and decide if they wish to enter the competition.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,081
    edited November 2017
    Rachel Sylvester on Boulton suspects there will be further issues and that this has only just started and Steve Richards claims the Sunday papers will be a massive test
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Would you agree that there’s clearly a big difference between having a written policy on something, and how the actions and omissions of those in senior positions within an organisation apply that policy in practice?

    It keeps coming back to this:
    https://twitter.com/bexbailey/status/925726372730949632
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I can see how much you're enjoying this.

    That is out of order - the point I am making is that it is in all parties but until now the spotlight has not included labour
    Yes it has - there have been any number of allegations about Labour MPs, Councillors and Councils. The spotlight has intended turned on the Conservatives this week and clearly some of that Party's members aren't enjoying the scrutiny and are desperate to look elsewhere.

    Why do you think Fallon resigned ? Should Damian Green resign as well ?
    Fallon may well have more to come and yes Damien Green should resign
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Eek, hmm, that must be post-2021, for which I've read they have a veto.

    It would actually explain their dummy-spitting. My view would be they can accept equality, or sod off. The lopsided, unfair financial and regulatory approach currently in operation is indefensible....

    Ferrari's threats perhaps fall into the same be careful what you wish for category as Mr Perez' latest demand, Mr.D...
    Perez: Force India must drop team orders now (Autosport)...

    Either could conceivably end up hoist on their own petard. Which might not be the occasion for uncontrollable grief.
    It’s clear that Liberty aren’t going to be afraid to call Ferrari out on their veto. In what other sport do the competitors get to decide the rules and the prize money?

    FOM and FIA should agree the regulations, with the former promoting the events and the latter running them.

    Teams can read the regulations and decide if they wish to enter the competition.
    Ferrari's 'position' in F1 needs altering. No team should in the modern era, have such a sweetheart deal. But I think they might turn out to be right on the pertinent issue, the homologisation of the drive train and engine mounting systems etc. F1 isn't a spec series and shouldn't be pushed down that route by the route even for what might be perceived to be sound reasons.
  • Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
  • This is all going to go away pretty soon. It will not change a single vote and everyone will get bored of it.

    That said, as a very definite alpha-beta male, I do find it extraordinary that some blokes feel they have the right to make sexually-charged comments to female colleagues and acquaintances. It really would not cross my mind to do it and I can see why the assumption that it is OK would annoy the hell out of many women.

    Should it be career-ending? That seems mightily OTT to me. But if you are going to do it, be prepared to be called out on it.

    I do not think this is going away soon as more accusations come to light but it will depend on the severity and number of resignations or police charges

    I should clarify - it will all go away if what we continue to get are a string of stupid, pissed blokes saying stupid/offensive things. Obviously, if things move beyond that then the story will get a lot bigger. If names are put to more serious allegations and it emerges that there have been cover ups, it's Goodnight Vienna. Just as it should be.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
  • Has there ever been a period in politics like this. You only need to go out for a few minutes and you wonder on your return what else will be 'breaking news'
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    Bercow keeps forgetting that he is the servant of the House and not the boss of it.

    I have no issue with unions being there to support complainants through a process. But that should be the limit of their involvement.
  • Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
    The unions are part of labour and cannot act in Parliament as an independent arbitrator
  • Mr. NorthWales, last year? :p
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879
    edited November 2017

    Mr. NorthWales, last year? :p

    I think Mr G means the period from mid June 2016 onward.

    If so, he’s quite right.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited November 2017

    I take it that, in the light of the new prudery, the Court of Public Opinion is going to decide that Harriet Harman should be hounded out of the Labour Party for her tasteless remark some years ago that 'When a woman says No, she means No'. Clearly that belittled rape and was extremely offensive to survivors.

    Is there more context to this? Because reading it now, I would assume that comment just meant "once women make up their minds, they don't change back and forth" rather than a rape reference.

    (And I think the fuss about the Gove comment was ridiculous btw.)
  • Mr. NorthWales, last year? :p

    When David Cameron announcing his resignation wasn't in the top three stories in 6pm news, you knew June 24th 2016 was an eventful day.
  • Mr. Eagles, what were the other stories?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108
    What a curious phenomenon. Brexiters believe that Brexiters are intelligent. I mean really.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
    The unions are part of labour and cannot act in Parliament as an independent arbitrator
    Not all Unions are affiliated to Labour as you well know.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,335
    edited November 2017

    Mr. Eagles, what were the other stories?

    IIRC

    1) The Result

    2) The Sterling and the FTSE 100 plummeting

    3) Leave and Remain talking heads on what June 23rd meant and the way forward
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
    The unions are part of labour and cannot act in Parliament as an independent arbitrator
    And Staff Associations are part of the administration and are never seen as independent...Whenever advancement and pay are at the discretion of the employers...
  • TOPPING said:

    What a curious phenomenon. Brexiters believe that Brexiters are intelligent. I mean really.
    Yet get all sensitive when you point out the educational attainment of Remainers vs Leavers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518
    TonyE said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Eek, hmm, that must be post-2021, for which I've read they have a veto.

    It would actually explain their dummy-spitting. My view would be they can accept equality, or sod off. The lopsided, unfair financial and regulatory approach currently in operation is indefensible....

    Ferrari's threats perhaps fall into the same be careful what you wish for category as Mr Perez' latest demand, Mr.D...
    Perez: Force India must drop team orders now (Autosport)...

    Either could conceivably end up hoist on their own petard. Which might not be the occasion for uncontrollable grief.
    It’s clear that Liberty aren’t going to be afraid to call Ferrari out on their veto. In what other sport do the competitors get to decide the rules and the prize money?

    FOM and FIA should agree the regulations, with the former promoting the events and the latter running them.

    Teams can read the regulations and decide if they wish to enter the competition.
    Ferrari's 'position' in F1 needs altering. No team should in the modern era, have such a sweetheart deal. But I think they might turn out to be right on the pertinent issue, the homologisation of the drive train and engine mounting systems etc. F1 isn't a spec series and shouldn't be pushed down that route by the route even for what might be perceived to be sound reasons.
    I agree that F1 is a construction and development formula, and the regulators need to be careful about too much standardisation of key parts, there always needs to be room for innovation. It’s a fine line between that and allowing the biggest pockets to buy the championship though - look at how many millions of fans (and their money) the sport lost when Schumacher then Vettel dominated. Thank God Mercedes has let their drivers race each other in equal machinery for the past few years.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Mr. Eagles, what were the other stories?

    IIRC

    1) The Result

    2) The Sterling and the FTSE 100 plummeting

    3) Leave and Remain talking heads on what June 23rd meant and the way forward
    There was also Sturgeon putting indyref2 "on the table", Sinn Fein calling for a Northern Ireland border poll, the Tory runners and riders limbering up for the leadership contest, and a motion of no confidence against Corbyn being tabled.

    Twas an interesting day!
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Roger said:

    Sodom and Gomorrah con't

    We're confusing far too many issues here and are in danger of changing the relationships between men and women for the worse. I can see a time where the only dating will be online. Anything more traditional will require a lawyer present.

    What has happened with children where men are reluctant to even smile in their direction will soon apply to male/female contacts. Which man hasn't made a pass at a woman or vice versa? Sometimes they might read the signals wrongly but that shouldn't be a police matter or a case for dismissal.

    I was with my little niece at a fair recently and she was on a ride. When it finished she was left on her own because the man running the ride wouldn't pick her up and bring her to me. I had to clambour over the machinery and pick her up myself. I was embarrassed for him.

    In Italy and Spain and to a lesser extent France it's completely different. The females at the companies I work for hug you when they greet you link arms when they walk beside you kiss you when they like something you've done and go to sleep on you on airoplanes......

    ...And they love children. It's a nice cheerful environment to work in

    My Spanish producer tells what she considers the hilarious story of when she met the family of her Old Etonian English boyfriend. He shook hands with his Mother!

    Yes interesting. as I said the other night we don't want to breed a society where if you're male being a cold fish is the only way to get on. Fallon is apparently a sociable fellow and sometimes work can be very mundane so a few risque remarks to relieve the underlying tenseness of the situation is no crime in my book. Leadsom although loathsome in the eyes of Remainers is also known to be quite sociable and have a sense of humour. So this latest story still raises more questions than answers.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
    The unions are part of labour and cannot act in Parliament as an independent arbitrator
    An independent staff association would be fine. My union is affiliated with the TUC but not a political party, but even those that are affilited have seperate workforce and political arms.

    Both Ronald Reagan and Norman Tebbit started as union activists. Unions are ont nessecarily left wing.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    There must be a counter reaction to this. It must come from somewhere. Otherwise we really are in deep trouble. We have far more important things to worry about as a nation.

    To me, pussygate was the most interesting aspect of Trumps rise. The allegations of outrageous things kept coming and it made no difference, people still voted for him.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,879
    OchEye said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
    The unions are part of labour and cannot act in Parliament as an independent arbitrator
    And Staff Associations are part of the administration and are never seen as independent...Whenever advancement and pay are at the discretion of the employers...
    There’s an ongoing fight going on in Boots over that at the moment.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,263

    TOPPING said:

    What a curious phenomenon. Brexiters believe that Brexiters are intelligent. I mean really.
    Yet get all sensitive when you point out the educational attainment of Remainers vs Leavers.
    Normalised by age?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844
    edited November 2017
    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
    The unions are part of labour and cannot act in Parliament as an independent arbitrator
    Not all Unions are affiliated to Labour as you well know.
    But they should still be part of the support for complainants rather that part of the judicial process
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I can see how much you're enjoying this.

    That is out of order - the point I am making is that it is in all parties but until now the spotlight has not included labour
    Yes it has - there have been any number of allegations about Labour MPs, Councillors and Councils. The spotlight has intended turned on the Conservatives this week and clearly some of that Party's members aren't enjoying the scrutiny and are desperate to look elsewhere.

    Why do you think Fallon resigned ? Should Damian Green resign as well ?
    Fallon may well have more to come and yes Damien Green should resign
    Because?

    Of an allegation which is even disputed, and is of a doubtful level of severity anyway (and even if all happened could amount to nothing more than a misunderstanding)? I think if something like this is to be a resigning matter, there at least has to be evidence that it represents a pattern of behaviour, which we are all I think assuming is the situation in the Fallon case.

  • Danny565 said:

    Mr. Eagles, what were the other stories?

    IIRC

    1) The Result

    2) The Sterling and the FTSE 100 plummeting

    3) Leave and Remain talking heads on what June 23rd meant and the way forward
    There was also Sturgeon putting indyref2 "on the table", Sinn Fein calling for a Northern Ireland border poll, the Tory runners and riders limbering up for the leadership contest, and a motion of no confidence against Corbyn being tabled.

    Twas an interesting day!
    Indeed, in my lifetime I've seen three PMs resign mid parliament, and the first two dominated the news for days and weeks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,937

    Mr. B, been very impressed with Ocon this year. Had a small run in with Manor for part of last year, and has been fast and reliable this season.

    The only weak spot has been the conflict with Perez (particularly galling as I'd backed Perez each way to win Azerbaijan at 201, and it was very likely to have come off but for that stupid collision).

    Ocon at least has the excuse of inexperience - Perez not so much.
    And yes, I've been very impressed by Ocon too, Mr.D.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,403
    Roger said:

    Sodom and Gomorrah con't

    We're confusing far too many issues here and are in danger of changing the relationships between men and women for the worse. I can see a time where the only dating will be online. Anything more traditional will require a lawyer present.

    What has happened with children where men are reluctant to even smile in their direction will soon apply to male/female contacts. Which man hasn't made a pass at a woman or vice versa? Sometimes they might read the signals wrongly but that shouldn't be a police matter or a case for dismissal.

    I was with my little niece at a fair recently and she was on a ride. When it finished she was left on her own because the man running the ride wouldn't pick her up and bring her to me. I had to clambour over the machinery and pick her up myself. I was embarrassed for him.

    In Italy and Spain and to a lesser extent France it's completely different. The females at the companies I work for hug you when they greet you link arms when they walk beside you kiss you when they like something you've done and go to sleep on you on airoplanes......

    ...And they love children. It's a nice cheerful environment to work in

    My Spanish producer tells what she considers the hilarious story of when she met the family of her Old Etonian English boyfriend. He shook hands with his Mother!

    You are in John Humphreys territory here and his claim is absurd. The usual rules of courting still apply, ask politely to break the ice, if the offer is declined desist. In the late 70s and 80s my peers, middle class grammar school boys saw initial rejection as a challenge, that should have been unacceptable then, it is now!

    I was brought up to realise the antics of Hopkins are grossly unacceptable, O'Mara cowardly (as he hid behind electronic anonymity) and Fallon rude and boorish. All are wrong and they always were, even if once they were brushed off as merely 'boys will be boys'!

    Fallon should be suspended by the party for being a dick!
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    Once again I'm glad I never went into politics.

    +1
  • Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
    The unions are part of labour and cannot act in Parliament as an independent arbitrator
    Not all Unions are affiliated to Labour as you well know.
    Most are and no doubt it would be the civil service union who is as fas as I am aware

    Independent means means no political influence from any source
  • This is like a wildfire. It will burn it's self out and we'll adjust to the new ecology surprisingly quickly. The only variable in play is how much dry scrub there is and the length of the fire. But these burns are part of a natural cycle. Power corrupts, the pendulum abruptly swings to a corrective extreme then a new equilibrium is found.

    What's interesting is the interplay with the May/Brexit crisis. The currently inexplicable Fallon departure increasingly looks like an intra conservative hit job. It'll be interesting to see how the Patel story develops.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518

    ttps://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/926407175475531776

    The story there is the minor parties (especially UKIP) creeping back up.
  • Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I see the Guardian have a story "Bercow forces Tories to publish harassment policies". The actual story "Bercow writes to all party leaders ordering them to publish harassment policies".
    Yes I read that but the Guardian has it's own agenda
    No, I wondered about that, but reading the story the point is that Labour and the LibDems have published theirs already. Not sure about the minor parties.
    Bercow has his own agenda but no doubt the conservatives will publish their policies
    Or Bercow is trying to distract from the way the Parliamentary authorities dealt with a serious sexual assault of a young staffer by an MP that was reported to them recently?
    And Bercow acting as pompous as ever does not help - It is to be hoped that TM and the leaders can agree a fully independent forum to address these issues but I do not buy into the unions being involved as they are not independent from political influence
    These sort of issues are why everyone should be in a union or staff association. They are the workers advocates against abuses of position.

    If I were involved in such a case (on either side) the union would be my first point of contact for advice
    The unions are part of labour and cannot act in Parliament as an independent arbitrator
    An independent staff association would be fine. My union is affiliated with the TUC but not a political party, but even those that are affilited have seperate workforce and political arms.

    Both Ronald Reagan and Norman Tebbit started as union activists. Unions are ont nessecarily left wing.
    I cannot see a union being independent even if welll intentioned. The body needs to be able to act completely impartially and have the trust of everyone, not least the public
  • Sandpit said:

    ttps://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/926407175475531776

    The story there is the minor parties (especially UKIP) creeping back up.
    Agreed.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    What's interesting is the interplay with the May/Brexit crisis. The currently inexplicable Fallon departure increasingly looks like an intra conservative hit job. It'll be interesting to see how the Patel story develops.

    It's possible some of the Ultras think that Brexit would be fine if only they were in charge.

    Of course if they take over and it is still a shambles, who do they blame next?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720
    At her best, Marf is a very good cartoonist (I especially enjoyed her one about UKIP's world atlas).
  • alex. said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I can see how much you're enjoying this.

    That is out of order - the point I am making is that it is in all parties but until now the spotlight has not included labour
    Yes it has - there have been any number of allegations about Labour MPs, Councillors and Councils. The spotlight has intended turned on the Conservatives this week and clearly some of that Party's members aren't enjoying the scrutiny and are desperate to look elsewhere.

    Why do you think Fallon resigned ? Should Damian Green resign as well ?
    Fallon may well have more to come and yes Damien Green should resign
    Because?

    Of an allegation which is even disputed, and is of a doubtful level of severity anyway (and even if all happened could amount to nothing more than a misunderstanding)? I think if something like this is to be a resigning matter, there at least has to be evidence that it represents a pattern of behaviour, which we are all I think assuming is the situation in the Fallon case.

    Damien Green is deputy PM and needs to be above suspicion.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720

    Roger said:

    Sodom and Gomorrah con't

    We're confusing far too many issues here and are in danger of changing the relationships between men and women for the worse. I can see a time where the only dating will be online. Anything more traditional will require a lawyer present.

    What has happened with children where men are reluctant to even smile in their direction will soon apply to male/female contacts. Which man hasn't made a pass at a woman or vice versa? Sometimes they might read the signals wrongly but that shouldn't be a police matter or a case for dismissal.

    I was with my little niece at a fair recently and she was on a ride. When it finished she was left on her own because the man running the ride wouldn't pick her up and bring her to me. I had to clambour over the machinery and pick her up myself. I was embarrassed for him.

    In Italy and Spain and to a lesser extent France it's completely different. The females at the companies I work for hug you when they greet you link arms when they walk beside you kiss you when they like something you've done and go to sleep on you on airoplanes......

    ...And they love children. It's a nice cheerful environment to work in

    My Spanish producer tells what she considers the hilarious story of when she met the family of her Old Etonian English boyfriend. He shook hands with his Mother!

    You are in John Humphreys territory here and his claim is absurd. The usual rules of courting still apply, ask politely to break the ice, if the offer is declined desist. In the late 70s and 80s my peers, middle class grammar school boys saw initial rejection as a challenge, that should have been unacceptable then, it is now!

    I was brought up to realise the antics of Hopkins are grossly unacceptable, O'Mara cowardly (as he hid behind electronic anonymity) and Fallon rude and boorish. All are wrong and they always were, even if once they were brushed off as merely 'boys will be boys'!

    Fallon should be suspended by the party for being a dick!
    Being a dick is hardly a reason to suspend someone.

    As to your first paragraph, plenty of people have formed lasting relationships with people who initially turned them down.
  • OchEye said:

    Once again I'm glad I never went into politics.

    +1
    As I think that the world of politics is glad as wee
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720

    alex. said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Sky chasing Corbyn down the street asking if he knew about Kelvin Hopkins. This is at his door now (literally)

    I can see how much you're enjoying this.

    That is out of order - the point I am making is that it is in all parties but until now the spotlight has not included labour
    Yes it has - there have been any number of allegations about Labour MPs, Councillors and Councils. The spotlight has intended turned on the Conservatives this week and clearly some of that Party's members aren't enjoying the scrutiny and are desperate to look elsewhere.

    Why do you think Fallon resigned ? Should Damian Green resign as well ?
    Fallon may well have more to come and yes Damien Green should resign
    Because?

    Of an allegation which is even disputed, and is of a doubtful level of severity anyway (and even if all happened could amount to nothing more than a misunderstanding)? I think if something like this is to be a resigning matter, there at least has to be evidence that it represents a pattern of behaviour, which we are all I think assuming is the situation in the Fallon case.

    Damien Green is deputy PM and needs to be above suspicion.
    Nobody should be thrown under the bus on the basis of a trivial allegation.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2017

    Has there ever been a period in politics like this. You only need to go out for a few minutes and you wonder on your return what else will be 'breaking news'

    It's mostly hot air. Nothing important is happening most of the time.
  • Mr. Eagles, well-remembered, though I'm surprised Cameron's resignation wasn't at least the third item. Still, probably priced in so seen as confirmation rather than news.

    Mr. B, Perez at Belgium was not an example of fine judgement.

    Returning to rules, if Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari all have doubts, then the rule changes will have to be amended.
This discussion has been closed.