So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
So you still accept it then and will not try and reverse it
I am not saying what you suggest that I am saying.
Yes you are, either you campaign to reverse it or you don't.
You're missing the significance of the word "yet".
So you are expecting the 52% of Leave voters to fall into the Remain camp without lifting a finger, much as you barely lifted a finger to campaign for Remain in the EU referendum then?
I'm not sure what sort of campaign you expect a nobody off the internet to launch. But no, that's not what I'm expecting.
Did you deliver one leaflet, man one stall, knock on one door or donate even £1 to the Remain camp in the referendum campaign? If not I expect your apathy will lead to the same result.
As polls consistently show it was sovereignty and immigration which were the key factors behind the Leave vote.
You only read the Twitter comment and hadn't read the open letter and now I've pointed out what it actually said you've gone into defensive ad-hom mode.
This is more about what a toy subject Eng lit actually is. It is difficult to imagine a campaign for a course on quantum electrodynamics to teach more of the work of BME quantum electrodynamicists
There is a very famous example. In 1965 the Home Secretary rejected an impassioned plea from Sir Frank Soskice, a leading opposition front bencher, for an enquiry into the Timothy Evans case.
However, the plea by Sir Frank Soskice was made in 1963, and in 1964 there was a change of government. So the Home Secretary who rejected the plea of Sir Frank Soskice was - Sir Frank Soskice!
If they've cut their assumption about immigration based on the two quarters after the referendum, I think that might be a mistake.
Of course, making longish term forecasts is always difficult.
I think the most interesting thing in there is that they've cut their life expectancies.
The way an actuary explained this to me is that they have not cut life expectancy but they have reduced the rate at which they expect it to increase. It seemed that this was being driven by drug dependency and suicide rates amongst young men in particular.
You only read the Twitter comment and hadn't read the open letter and now I've pointed out what it actually said you've gone into defensive ad-hom mode.
This is more about what a toy subject Eng lit actually is. It is difficult to imagine a campaign for a course on quantum electrodynamics to teach more of the work of BME quantum electrodynamicists
If they've cut their assumption about immigration based on the two quarters after the referendum, I think that might be a mistake.
Of course, making longish term forecasts is always difficult.
I think the most interesting thing in there is that they've cut their life expectancies.
The way an actuary explained this to me is that they have not cut life expectancy but they have reduced the rate at which they expect it to increase. It seemed that this was being driven by drug dependency and suicide rates amongst young men in particular.
That's what I understand too. Life expectancy is still projected to increase, just not as rapidly as previously thought. Actuaries had got slightly ahead of themselves.
There is also a suspicion that the interwar generation might have been particularly healthy (thanks to the war diet and exercise), so may be an outlier on the upside of the general trend of increasing life expectancy.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
Brexiteers need to be made to eat their own dog food for a while first, but the time will come when they can no longer mask the taste.
There are more quality restrictions of manufacture of dog food (which is 80% vegetal protein anyway) than on human food processing
Let them eat dog food effectively says a Leaver.
You are Marie Antoinette and I claim my five Francs.
Surely that should be five louis d'or? The franc was a revolutionary currency!
You only read the Twitter comment and hadn't read the open letter and now I've pointed out what it actually said you've gone into defensive ad-hom mode.
This is more about what a toy subject Eng lit actually is. It is difficult to imagine a campaign for a course on quantum electrodynamics to teach more of the work of BME quantum electrodynamicists
Not at all difficult. We need to increase the opportunity for, availability of and remove the impediments to education for many BME children.
Which makes @CopperSulphate's fatuous comment probably quite accurate.
If Theresa May wants to be a success as PM and of Brexit, she needs to sack David Davis.
I nominate Michael Gove as his replacement.
I am a Michael Gove fan. He is a proper libertarian (his set to with that prat Leveson almost made that farce worthwhile), he is a clear thinker, he has an excellent wit which can deflate pomposity well and he has no problem at all with taking on vested interests. But if he were our negotiator the range of possible options may have to include fairly major warfare, possibly nuclear.
Despite being a lefty - I have a soft spot for Michael Gove. I think appointing him would be a clear sign of the end of 'cake and eat it' negotiation.
He wouldn't declare war - but definitely possible, perhaps likely, he would abandon negotiations and take us out of the EU before March 2019.
He has a rare talent for getting some peoples' backs up. Teachers come to mind, even if there was a lot of initial support for many of his ideas. I am also not sure that abandoning the negotiations is the way forward, albeit being credible about the possibility may well be the best prospect of progress.
I'm not sure the talent is all that rare... what is rare perhaps is he sometimes seems to manage it almost unintentionally, and then struggles to get a hearing afterwards.
Legal friends tell me he did well at justice - particularly since he followed Grayling. At education he obviously made some very bad mistakes (and was far too bone headed to admit them), but at the same time some of his reforms I think will bear fruit.
He was indeed excellent at Justice. I would like to see him replace Hammond myself.
1) white men feeling they are victims in today's Britain 2) older people moaning about students
This story neatly combined the two.
The ludicrous brouhaha over trigger warnings at university was offensive in its stupidity by the people taking offence.
It's as if all the news paper columnists raging about completely non existent censorship had never ever heard the phrase "this news report contains scenes some viewers may find disturbing" ever before in their life.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
Brexiteers need to be made to eat their own dog food for a while first, but the time will come when they can no longer mask the taste.
There are more quality restrictions of manufacture of dog food (which is 80% vegetal protein anyway) than on human food processing
Let them eat dog food effectively says a Leaver.
You are Marie Antoinette and I claim my five Francs.
Surely that should be five louis d'or? The franc was a revolutionary currency!
A rare historical mistake by me.
A career as a history consultant for American war movies beckons for me.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
Brexiteers need to be made to eat their own dog food for a while first, but the time will come when they can no longer mask the taste.
There are more quality restrictions of manufacture of dog food (which is 80% vegetal protein anyway) than on human food processing
Let them eat dog food effectively says a Leaver.
You are Marie Antoinette and I claim my five Francs.
Surely that should be five louis d'or? The franc was a revolutionary currency!
A rare historical mistake by me.
A career as a history consultant for American war movies beckons for me.
Didn't know Caesar fought in America. Or will they be Armorican war movies?
I just think the politics make it impossible. Ain't gonna happen. No major party will support it (unless Brexit sends the economy very very clearly and quickly down the khazi, which does not seem likely, now).
I think there is an element of self-correction going on there.
The more likely Brexit looks, the greater the economic harm, which makes retreating from Brexit more likely
Nissan agreed to stay in the UK when the government assured them no change. Now change is more likely, Toyota are making noises again.
We're never gonna agree on Brexit, but this is just wishful thinking. Car manufacturers may whinge, but it takes years to move factories etc (if it happens at all). There just won't be enough pressure on the Commons, to make MPs take the epochal step of calling a 2nd vote, before we Leave.
Personally I'd quite like a 2nd vote, between Soft and Hard Brexit - EEA v WTO, say - and I'd go for Soft. But sadly even that is very unlikely.
It will likely be a 2 year transition deal then ultimately a Canada style FTA as even Barnier has projected.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
Brexiteers need to be made to eat their own dog food for a while first, but the time will come when they can no longer mask the taste.
There are more quality restrictions of manufacture of dog food (which is 80% vegetal protein anyway) than on human food processing
Let them eat dog food effectively says a Leaver.
You are Marie Antoinette and I claim my five Francs.
What I was actually saying is that @williamglenn knows less about pet food than I do
If they've cut their assumption about immigration based on the two quarters after the referendum, I think that might be a mistake.
Of course, making longish term forecasts is always difficult.
I think the most interesting thing in there is that they've cut their life expectancies.
The way an actuary explained this to me is that they have not cut life expectancy but they have reduced the rate at which they expect it to increase. It seemed that this was being driven by drug dependency and suicide rates amongst young men in particular.
That's what I understand too. Life expectancy is still projected to increase, just not as rapidly as previously thought. Actuaries had got slightly ahead of themselves.
There is also a suspicion that the interwar generation might have been particularly healthy (thanks to the war diet and exercise), so may be an outlier on the upside of the general trend of increasing life expectancy.
Yes, and (looking down and wincing slightly) the modern scourge of obesity and related health problems is playing a part.
Both Leavers and Remainers need a "transition" so both accept Brexit will happen and it will be crap. Leavers seem to be coming to the view that Brexit is still good but the implementation is woeful. They may eventually realise that "implementation bad" and "Brexit bad" is a distinction without a difference. Once they are there - Brexit will happen and it will be crap - everyone is on the same page. Then it is all about damage limitation and keeping things as much the same as possible. The "transition" is about hanging onto stuff rather than moving to a new place.
At the moment Remainers see Leavers who haven't done a single thing to make their project a success, as well as the unfolding clusterfuck that they don't think they have a responsibility for. They are not going to commit. It's a race against time.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
Brexiteers need to be made to eat their own dog food for a while first, but the time will come when they can no longer mask the taste.
There are more quality restrictions of manufacture of dog food (which is 80% vegetal protein anyway) than on human food processing
Let them eat dog food effectively says a Leaver.
You are Marie Antoinette and I claim my five Francs.
Surely that should be five louis d'or? The franc was a revolutionary currency!
A rare historical mistake by me.
A career as a history consultant for American war movies beckons for me.
Didn't know Caesar fought in America. Or will they be Armorican war movies?
How could he possibly have won the Gallic wars without the US Marine Corps?
And in case your maths is as bad as your belief in democracy, 61% of 48% is still less than 30% of those who voted in the referendum.
Those of us reading a political betting and polling website care.
If you don't, then take your scared, bad-winner, aggressive, nervous that Brexit may not happen, snide comments elsewhere and leave the grown-up conversation to the adults.
We don't count. That is the point. We are insignificant in the overall scheme of things as is shown by the fact that some Remainers on here are making a big thing out of the fact that less than 30% of the people who voted in the referendum want to reverse the decision or have a second vote.
Sorry if that doesn't massage your ego but since you apparently consider yourself a 'grown up' and yet get upset about these comments I suggest you have quite enough of an ego already.
I just think the politics make it impossible. Ain't gonna happen. No major party will support it (unless Brexit sends the economy very very clearly and quickly down the khazi, which does not seem likely, now).
I think there is an element of self-correction going on there.
The more likely Brexit looks, the greater the economic harm, which makes retreating from Brexit more likely
Nissan agreed to stay in the UK when the government assured them no change. Now change is more likely, Toyota are making noises again.
We're never gonna agree on Brexit, but this is just wishful thinking. Car manufacturers may whinge, but it takes years to move factories etc (if it happens at all). There just won't be enough pressure on the Commons, to make MPs take the epochal step of calling a 2nd vote, before we Leave.
Personally I'd quite like a 2nd vote, between Soft and Hard Brexit - EEA v WTO, say - and I'd go for Soft. But sadly even that is very unlikely.
It will likely be a 2 year transition deal then ultimately a Canada style FTA as even Barnier has projected.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
The words you are eliding over are: then ultimately. That period of probably many years is where the cliff edge happens.
Edit. Preferential Trade Agreements are uncertain, take years to negotiate, will be far less comprehensive than the arrangements we had as a member of the EU and the Single Market and may not even happen at all. The EU has more PTAs than anyone else but even they don't have a comprehensive trade agreement yet with economies as big as the USA, Japan, China and India.
I suspect the UK PTA will never happen. The pressure to find another quicker and better arrangement will be too strong.
You know, whatever the faults of some old-time Labour MPs of whom Skinner and Corbyn are among the last, I really can't imagine one of them doing something like this:
For all her arrogance I think she's got a lot to learn about public service and what that involves, which includes not buggering off to Italy for several days because she feels she's earned a 30th birthday treat.
(And that goes for the idiot Tory who decided to referee a football match in Spain mid-session as well.)
At the moment Remainers see Leavers who haven't done a single thing to make their project a success, as well as the unfolding clusterfuck that they don't think they have a responsibility for. They are not going to commit. It's a race against time.
But the narrative among the Brexiteers is that it is those who warned, campaigned and voted against Brexit who have not done enough to make the project a success...
Both Leavers and Remainers need a "transition" so both accept Brexit will happen and it will be crap. Leavers seem to be coming to the view that Brexit is still good but the implementation is woeful. They may eventually realise that "implementation bad" and "Brexit bad" is a distinction without a difference. Once they are there - Brexit will happen and it will be crap - everyone is on the same page. Then it is all about damage limitation and keeping things as much the same as possible. The "transition" is about hanging onto stuff rather than moving to a new place.
At the moment Remainers see Leavers who haven't done a single thing to make their project a success, as well as the unfolding clusterfuck that they don't think they have a responsibility for. They are not going to commit. It's a race against time.
No you are focused on believing Brexit will be terrible regardless, Leavers mostly believe leaving the EU for a Canada style FTA with a points system replacing free movement from the EU will ultimately do nicely
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
Brexiteers need to be made to eat their own dog food for a while first, but the time will come when they can no longer mask the taste.
There are more quality restrictions of manufacture of dog food (which is 80% vegetal protein anyway) than on human food processing
Let them eat dog food effectively says a Leaver.
You are Marie Antoinette and I claim my five Francs.
Surely that should be five louis d'or? The franc was a revolutionary currency!
A rare historical mistake by me.
A career as a history consultant for American war movies beckons for me.
Didn't know Caesar fought in America. Or will they be Armorican war movies?
How could he possibly have won the Gallic wars without the US Marine Corps?
But did he get the Gauls' tanks, or did they just tell him not to mention it?
I just think the politics make it impossible. Ain't gonna happen. No major party will support it (unless Brexit sends the economy very very clearly and quickly down the khazi, which does not seem likely, now).
I think there is an element of self-correction going on there.
The more likely Brexit looks, the greater the economic harm, which makes retreating from Brexit more likely
Nissan agreed to stay in the UK when the government assured them no change. Now change is more likely, Toyota are making noises again.
We're never gonna agree on Brexit, but this is just wishful thinking. Car manufacturers may whinge, but it takes years to move factories etc (if it happens at all). There just won't be enough pressure on the Commons, to make MPs take the epochal step of calling a 2nd vote, before we Leave.
Personally I'd quite like a 2nd vote, between Soft and Hard Brexit - EEA v WTO, say - and I'd go for Soft. But sadly even that is very unlikely.
It will likely be a 2 year transition deal then ultimately a Canada style FTA as even Barnier has projected.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
But does the Canada deal cover financial services ?
And in case your maths is as bad as your belief in democracy, 61% of 48% is still less than 30% of those who voted in the referendum.
It matters because we might well be in an implementation transition period at the time of the next election and we really have no idea what Lab's view on the EU will be at that time. Or now, for that matter, but that's fine because it's their job to oppose atm.
Unless there is a specific agreement from all 27 EU states plus a request from the UK we are leaving in March 2019. It doesn't matter whether there is then a transition period, we will already have left and would have to go through the whole accession process again.
So unless you think you can stop Brexit in the next 17 1/2 months it doesn't matter what the Remainers or Labour want. We will already have left before the next GE.
Indeed we will have but there may be a big groundswell of opinion for a synthetic Norway-style arrangement whereby we submit ourselves to the transition period in perpetuity. Lab needs to know the current mood so that it can gauge its approach appropriately.
Again it doesn't matter. When we leave we leave on the terms that have been negotiated (or in the case of no deal without any terms) by the end of March 2019. Anything after that is simply creating a new position outside the EU. It will not magically bring us back into some sort of semi-detached relationship unless we have already negotiated that in the next 17 or so months.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
Brexiteers need to be made to eat their own dog food for a while first, but the time will come when they can no longer mask the taste.
There are more quality restrictions of manufacture of dog food (which is 80% vegetal protein anyway) than on human food processing
Let them eat dog food effectively says a Leaver.
You are Marie Antoinette and I claim my five Francs.
Surely that should be five louis d'or? The franc was a revolutionary currency!
A rare historical mistake by me.
A career as a history consultant for American war movies beckons for me.
Didn't know Caesar fought in America. Or will they be Armorican war movies?
How could he possibly have won the Gallic wars without the US Marine Corps?
Captain Hamill: You got to take Caen so you can take Saint Lo.
Captain Miller: You've got to take Saint Lo to take Valognes.
I just think the politics make it impossible. Ain't gonna happen. No major party will support it (unless Brexit sends the economy very very clearly and quickly down the khazi, which does not seem likely, now).
I think there is an element of self-correction going on there.
The more likely Brexit looks, the greater the economic harm, which makes retreating from Brexit more likely
Nissan agreed to stay in the UK when the government assured them no change. Now change is more likely, Toyota are making noises again.
We're never gonna agree on Brexit, but this is just wishful thinking. Car manufacturers may whinge, but it takes years to move factories etc (if it happens at all). There just won't be enough pressure on the Commons, to make MPs take the epochal step of calling a 2nd vote, before we Leave.
Personally I'd quite like a 2nd vote, between Soft and Hard Brexit - EEA v WTO, say - and I'd go for Soft. But sadly even that is very unlikely.
It will likely be a 2 year transition deal then ultimately a Canada style FTA as even Barnier has projected.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
But does Canada deal cover financial services ?
Kinda important no?
There will likely be some key financial regulations implemented by the UK government to ensure some access for UK financial services to the EEA much as they have done with GDPR but most Leave voters do not work in the City and put control of immigration and leaving the single market and ending free movement above whatever the City wants
I just think the politics make it impossible. Ain't gonna happen. No major party will support it (unless Brexit sends the economy very very clearly and quickly down the khazi, which does not seem likely, now).
I think there is an element of self-correction going on there.
The more likely Brexit looks, the greater the economic harm, which makes retreating from Brexit more likely
Nissan agreed to stay in the UK when the government assured them no change. Now change is more likely, Toyota are making noises again.
We're never gonna agree on Brexit, but this is just wishful thinking. Car manufacturers may whinge, but it takes years to move factories etc (if it happens at all). There just won't be enough pressure on the Commons, to make MPs take the epochal step of calling a 2nd vote, before we Leave.
Personally I'd quite like a 2nd vote, between Soft and Hard Brexit - EEA v WTO, say - and I'd go for Soft. But sadly even that is very unlikely.
It will likely be a 2 year transition deal then ultimately a Canada style FTA as even Barnier has projected.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
But does Canada deal cover financial services ?
Kinda important no?
There will likely be some key financial regulations implemented by the UK government to ensure some access for UK financial services to the EEA much as they have done with GDPR but most Leave voters do not work in the city and put control of immigration and leaving the single market and ending free movement above whatever the City wants
So that’s a no then.
Given the revenues the Treasury earns from financial services, Leave voters will care.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
So you still accept it then and will not try and reverse it
I am not saying what you suggest that I am saying.
Yes you are, either you campaign to reverse it or you don't.
You're missing the significance of the word "yet".
So you are expecting the 52% of Leave voters to fall into the Remain camp without lifting a finger, much as you barely lifted a finger to campaign for Remain in the EU referendum then?
I'm not sure what sort of campaign you expect a nobody off the internet to launch. But no, that's not what I'm expecting.
Did you deliver one leaflet, man one stall, knock on one door or donate even £1 to the Remain camp in the referendum campaign? If not I expect your apathy will lead to the same result.....
Can't win with you guys. I the same thread you excoriate Remainers for caring about the issue - and then again for being apathetic about it. There really is little point in arguing with one so obtuse.
I sincerely hope Tory remain MPs are not going to put embarrassing their own government ahead of the nation. Note that applies equally to diehard Brexiters who could baulk at the final bill.
No matter what Davis comes back with (And he'll arrive back with a deal of sorts), Tory MPs need to troop through the lobbies to support it so it passes.
Crashing out with no deal could be ruinous to our economy.
You know, whatever the faults of some old-time Labour MPs of whom Skinner and Corbyn are among the last, I really can't imagine one of them doing something like this:
For all her arrogance I think she's got a lot to learn about public service and what that involves, which includes not buggering off to Italy for several days because she feels she's earned a 30th birthday treat.
(And that goes for the idiot Tory who decided to referee a football match in Spain mid-session as well.)
Personally I think its a bit of a shame that the old rules on Pairing seem to have fallen into desuetude. It is ridiculous to measure the utility of an MP by the amount of time he or she sits braying in the Chamber. I would like our politicians to have more of a life and more life experience. Jobs outside Parliament should be encouraged not discouraged for back benchers so that they at least occasionally know what they are talking about. Obsessive Social Work interventions on behalf of constituents should be discouraged.
You know, whatever the faults of some old-time Labour MPs of whom Skinner and Corbyn are among the last, I really can't imagine one of them doing something like this:
For all her arrogance I think she's got a lot to learn about public service and what that involves, which includes not buggering off to Italy for several days because she feels she's earned a 30th birthday treat.
(And that goes for the idiot Tory who decided to referee a football match in Spain mid-session as well.)
Personally I think its a bit of a shame that the old rules on Pairing seem to have fallen into desuetude. It is ridiculous to measure the utility of an MP by the amount of time he or she sits braying in the Chamber. I would like our politicians to have more of a life and more life experience. Jobs outside Parliament should be encouraged not discouraged for back benchers so that they at least occasionally know what they are talking about. Obsessive Social Work interventions on behalf of constituents should be discouraged.
Jobs I wouldn't mind so much about. That might be useful as long as no conflict of interest is involved.
I just think the politics make it impossible. Ain't gonna happen. No major party will support it (unless Brexit sends the economy very very clearly and quickly down the khazi, which does not seem likely, now).
I think there is an element of self-correction going on there.
The more likely Brexit looks, the greater the economic harm, which makes retreating from Brexit more likely
Nissan agreed to stay in the UK when the government assured them no change. Now change is more likely, Toyota are making noises again.
We're never gonna agree on Brexit, but this is just wishful thinking. Car manufacturers may whinge, but it takes years to move factories etc (if it happens at all). There just won't be enough pressure on the Commons, to make MPs take the epochal step of calling a 2nd vote, before we Leave.
Personally I'd quite like a 2nd vote, between Soft and Hard Brexit - EEA v WTO, say - and I'd go for Soft. But sadly even that is very unlikely.
It will likely be a 2 year transition deal then ultimately a Canada style FTA as even Barnier has projected.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
But does Canada deal cover financial services ?
Kinda important no?
There will likely be some key financial regulations implemented by the UK government to ensure some access for UK financial services to the EEA much as they have done with GDPR but most Leave voters do not work in the city and put control of immigration and leaving the single market and ending free movement above whatever the City wants
So that’s a no then.
Given the revenues the Treasury earns from financial services, Leave voters will care.
Leave voters in the North and Midlands and Wales will care if they get none of the immigration controls they were promised to make a few more millions for City workers in London and the South East.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
So you still accept it then and will not try and reverse it
I am not saying what you suggest that I am saying.
Yes you are, either you campaign to reverse it or you don't.
You're missing the significance of the word "yet".
So you are expecting the 52% of Leave voters to fall into the Remain camp without lifting a finger, much as you barely lifted a finger to campaign for Remain in the EU referendum then?
I'm not sure what sort of campaign you expect a nobody off the internet to launch. But no, that's not what I'm expecting.
Did you deliver one leaflet, man one stall, knock on one door or donate even £1 to the Remain camp in the referendum campaign? If not I expect your apathy will lead to the same result.....
Can't win with you guys. I the same thread you excoriate Remainers for caring about the issue - and then again for being apathetic about it. There really is little point in arguing with one so obtuse.
No I have never excoriated Remainers for caring about it, I would rather a complaining Remainer who is an active campaigner than one who just whines about how awful Brexit is and does not move from his keyboard
And in case your maths is as bad as your belief in democracy, 61% of 48% is still less than 30% of those who voted in the referendum.
It matters because we might well be in an implementation transition period at the time of the next election and we really have no idea what Lab's view on the EU will be at that time. Or now, for that matter, but that's fine because it's their job to oppose atm.
Unless there is a specific agreement from all 27 EU states plus a request from the UK we are leaving in March 2019. It doesn't matter whether there is then a transition period, we will already have left and would have to go through the whole accession process again.
So unless you think you can stop Brexit in the next 17 1/2 months it doesn't matter what the Remainers or Labour want. We will already have left before the next GE.
Indeed we will have but there may be a big groundswell of opinion for a synthetic Norway-style arrangement whereby we submit ourselves to the transition period in perpetuity. Lab needs to know the current mood so that it can gauge its approach appropriately.
Again it doesn't matter. When we leave we leave on the terms that have been negotiated (or in the case of no deal without any terms) by the end of March 2019. Anything after that is simply creating a new position outside the EU. It will not magically bring us back into some sort of semi-detached relationship unless we have already negotiated that in the next 17 or so months.
Makes no sense. We are unlikely to know the terms for post-Brexit (ie post-transition deal) until some time into the transition deal. After that, I can only see there being another transition deal to implement the new deal. The government inaccurately calls the transition deal (actually a moratorium) an implementation deal and then in the same breath says nothing will change for two years.
So which is it?
Which brings us back to the views of Remainers. I think it unlikely that in April 2021 we will be in any position to step into a new relationship with the EU (or anyone else) because that would be a cliff-edge. So there will be a *********ion period. And during this *******ion period, we will have a GE and the new govt might decide that it will maintain that status until further notice. Yes we will be out of the EU, but we will look, feel, and indeed quack like we are still in.
Presumably the actual motion will be "Do you approve the Government's deal?" So sulky remainers could vote no without supporting no deal - and it sounds like there's a head of steam building up about legislating for this scenario in the EU Withdrawal Bill.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
If you consider that I'm one of the 13% who think that Brexit should continue as now, I wouldn't be interpreting these results as showing much equanimity acquiescing with the Leave vote among Remain supporters.
If you want to continue with Brexit as now fine, you accept the result and leave it at that.
You accept you lost.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
So you still accept it then and will not try and reverse it
I am not saying what you suggest that I am saying.
Yes you are, either you campaign to reverse it or you don't.
You're missing the significance of the word "yet".
So you are expecting the 52% of Leave voters to fall into the Remain camp without lifting a finger, much as you barely lifted a finger to campaign for Remain in the EU referendum then?
I'm not sure what sort of campaign you expect a nobody off the internet to launch. But no, that's not what I'm expecting.
Did you deliver one leaflet, man one stall, knock on one door or donate even £1 to the Remain camp in the referendum campaign? If not I expect your apathy will lead to the same result.....
Can't win with you guys. I the same thread you excoriate Remainers for caring about the issue - and then again for being apathetic about it. There really is little point in arguing with one so obtuse.
Good point, provided you equate whining like a bitch on social meejah with the actual doorknocking GOTV which wins elections. Otherwise, not.
Presumably the actual motion will be "Do you approve the Government's deal?" So sulky remainers could vote no without supporting no deal - and it sounds like there's a head of steam building up about legislating for this scenario in the EU Withdrawal Bill.
The Gov'ts deal will be the only game in town. I hope MPs think seriously before voting against, the consequences for the sake of embarrasing the gov't could be very severe indeed.
I just think the politics make it impossible. Ain't gonna happen. No major party will support it (unless Brexit sends the economy very very clearly and quickly down the khazi, which does not seem likely, now).
I think there is an element of self-correction going on there.
The more likely Brexit looks, the greater the economic harm, which makes retreating from Brexit more likely
Nissan agreed to stay in the UK when the government assured them no change. Now change is more likely, Toyota are making noises again.
We're never gonna agree on Brexit, but this is just wishful thinking. Car manufacturers may whinge, but it takes years to move factories etc (if it happens at all). There just won't be enough pressure on the Commons, to make MPs take the epochal step of calling a 2nd vote, before we Leave.
Personally I'd quite like a 2nd vote, between Soft and Hard Brexit - EEA v WTO, say - and I'd go for Soft. But sadly even that is very unlikely.
It will likely be a 2 year transition deal then ultimately a Canada style FTA as even Barnier has projected.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
But does Canada deal cover financial services ?
Kinda important no?
There will likely be some key financial regulations implemented by the UK government to ensure some access for UK financial services to the EEA much as they have done with GDPR but most Leave voters do not work in the City and put control of immigration and leaving the single market and ending free movement above whatever the City wants
whatever the City wants = 7% of the UK's GVA. Yeah..who cares as long as the foreigners are kept out. Why even Polly wants to stop them buying property in the UK.
I just think the politics make it impossible. Ain't gonna happen. No major party will support it (unless Brexit sends the economy very very clearly and quickly down the khazi, which does not seem likely, now).
I think there is an element of self-correction going on there.
The more likely Brexit looks, the greater the economic harm, which makes retreating from Brexit more likely
Nissan agreed to stay in the UK when the government assured them no change. Now change is more likely, Toyota are making noises again.
We're never gonna agree on Brexit, but this is just wishful thinking. Car manufacturers may whinge, but it takes years to move factories etc (if it happens at all). There just won't be enough pressure on the Commons, to make MPs take the epochal step of calling a 2nd vote, before we Leave.
Personally I'd quite like a 2nd vote, between Soft and Hard Brexit - EEA v WTO, say - and I'd go for Soft. But sadly even that is very unlikely.
It will likely be a 2 year transition deal then ultimately a Canada style FTA as even Barnier has projected.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
But does Canada deal cover financial services ?
Kinda important no?
There will likely be some key financial regulations implemented by the UK government to ensure some access for UK financial services to the EEA much as they have done with GDPR but most Leave voters do not work in the City and put control of immigration and leaving the single market and ending free movement above whatever the City wants
whatever the City wants = 7% of the UK's GVA. Yeah..who cares as long as the foreigners are kept out. Why even Polly wants to stop them buying property in the UK.
What a time to be alive.
So 93% of the UK's GVA is not in the city. Though as I said the government will likely implement enough EU regulations to ensure some City access to the EEA but not the full single market membership it wants which would require full free movement and prevent any of the immigration controls and new points system Leave voters voted for.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
So you still accept it then and will not try and reverse it
I am not saying what you suggest that I am saying.
Yes you are, either you campaign to reverse it or you don't.
You're missing the significance of the word "yet".
So you are expecting the 52% of Leave voters to fall into the Remain camp without lifting a finger, much as you barely lifted a finger to campaign for Remain in the EU referendum then?
I'm not sure what sort of campaign you expect a nobody off the internet to launch. But no, that's not what I'm expecting.
Did you deliver one leaflet, man one stall, knock on one door or donate even £1 to the Remain camp in the referendum campaign? If not I expect your apathy will lead to the same result.....
Can't win with you guys. I the same thread you excoriate Remainers for caring about the issue - and then again for being apathetic about it. There really is little point in arguing with one so obtuse.
Good point, provided you equate whining like a bitch on social meejah with the actual doorknocking GOTV which wins elections. Otherwise, not.
If there's one thing we learned from the last election, it's that "whining like a bitch on social meejah" is what wins elections these days.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
As a Remainer (and who campaigned for it in 1975) I want to stay, but, recognising the political realities I’m somewhere between seeking a softer Brexit and a second referendum.
Add together soft Brexit and as now Brexit backers (about 28% of Remainers ie about 12% of the EU referendum voters) to the 52% who voted Leave and you get 64% of EU referendum voters now accepting Brexit.
I think most remainers, myself included, would bite your hand off for a soft Brexit - single market and customs union, as something that would avert the worst consequences and the only way out of a pretty dreadful mess. If halting Brexit became a serious prospect though, you'd see people reverting to their pre-referendum camps, and it would be roughly as before. We see all sorts of polling on various questions around Brexit, but the most consistent pattern is that the country is pretty much split down the middle on whether it's on balance a bad or good idea. Genuinely put it to the country again in a meaningful way and you'll see a similar result - with minor shifts depending on circumstances and who's blamed for cocking things up.
Most people are pragmatic, they take their view on the options available - at the moment the prospect of fully reversing Brexit seems remote, and the events that would make it a political possibility (a collapse in talks followed by the inevitable economic shock) aren't ones you can wish for or campaign for. Others don't follow the politics that intensely so "accept" it because it's happening, and don't spend their time fretting over trade data or agreements on nuclear material. You think it's bad and find those now plastering the airwaves singing its praises distasteful to say the least, but hey ho, life goes on - just as it does when you vote for the loser in a general election.
So you "accept" Brexit, but it doesn't mean you're in any way happy about it and, as we saw at the last election go out of your way to punish those bringing it about when you get the chance at the ballot box.
So less than a third of even Remainers want to reverse Brexit, another third want a second referendum and over 10% want to continue with Brexit as now.
As a Remainer (and who campaigned for it in 1975) I want to stay, but, recognising the political realities I’m somewhere between seeking a softer Brexit and a second referendum.
Add together soft Brexit and as now Brexit backers (about 28% of Remainers ie about 12% of the EU referendum voters) to the 52% who voted Leave and you get 64% of EU referendum voters now accepting Brexit.
I think most remainers, myself included, would bite your hand off for a soft Brexit - single market and customs union, as something that would avert the worst consequences and the only way out of a pretty dreadful mess. If halting Brexit became a serious prospect though, you'd see people reverting to their pre-referendum camps, and it would be roughly as before. We see all sorts of polling on various questions around Brexit, but the most consistent pattern is that the country is pretty much split down the middle on whether it's on balance a bad or good idea. Genuinely put it to the country again in a meaningful way and you'll see a similar result - with minor shifts depending on circumstances and who's blamed for cocking things up.
Most people are pragmatic, they take their view on the options available - at the moment the prospect of fully reversing Brexit seems remote, and the events that would make it a political possibility (a collapse in talks followed by the inevitable economic shock) aren't ones you can wish for or campaign for. Others don't follow the politics that intensely so "accept" it because it's happening, and don't spend their time fretting over trade data or agreements on nuclear material. You think it's bad and find those now plastering the airwaves singing its praises distasteful to say the least, but hey ho, life goes on - just as it does when you vote for the loser in a general election.
So you "accept" Brexit, but it doesn't mean you're in any way happy about it and, as we saw at the last election go out of your way to punish those bringing it about when you get the chance at the ballot box.
Very articulate and I would identify with all of that - maybe worth copying to the new thread
Brexiteers will be cheering this. Parliament will be Sovereign, right?
They are going to amend the deal? I assume the EU will just immediately say yes to whatever Parliament proposes?
It’s abundantly clear that MPs making proposals like this have never dealt with a Treaty before. It’s deal or no deal, we can’t unilaterally amend something that’s been painstakingly negotiated with third parties.
The people have spoken. The Leave path needs to be followed until that is blindingly obvious to a public consensus. At the end of it all, the country will be far weaker, meaner and divided than it needed to be. It's a complete disaster.
So you still accept it then.
No, I simply think that the time has not yet been reached where the other options offered are appropriate.
So you still accept it then and will not try and reverse it
I am not saying what you suggest that I am saying.
Yes you are, either you campaign to reverse it or you don't.
You're missing the significance of the word "yet".
So you are expecting the 52% of Leave voters to fall into the Remain camp without lifting a finger, much as you barely lifted a finger to campaign for Remain in the EU referendum then?
I'm not sure what sort of campaign you expect a nobody off the internet to launch. But no, that's not what I'm expecting.
Did you deliver one leaflet, man one stall, knock on one door or donate even £1 to the Remain camp in the referendum campaign? If not I expect your apathy will lead to the same result.....
Can't win with you guys. I the same thread you excoriate Remainers for caring about the issue - and then again for being apathetic about it. There really is little point in arguing with one so obtuse.
Good point, provided you equate whining like a bitch on social meejah with the actual doorknocking GOTV which wins elections. Otherwise, not.
If there's one thing we learned from the last election, it's that "whining like a bitch on social meejah" is what wins elections these days.
Comments
As polls consistently show it was sovereignty and immigration which were the key factors behind the Leave vote.
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/923529739251470336
However, the plea by Sir Frank Soskice was made in 1963, and in 1964 there was a change of government. So the Home Secretary who rejected the plea of Sir Frank Soskice was - Sir Frank Soskice!
There is also a suspicion that the interwar generation might have been particularly healthy (thanks to the war diet and exercise), so may be an outlier on the upside of the general trend of increasing life expectancy.
Which makes @CopperSulphate's fatuous comment probably quite accurate.
It's as if all the news paper columnists raging about completely non existent censorship had never ever heard the phrase "this news report contains scenes some viewers may find disturbing" ever before in their life.
A career as a history consultant for American war movies beckons for me.
Hardly the complete fall off the cliff some hard-core Remainers were predicting in the summer.
At the moment Remainers see Leavers who haven't done a single thing to make their project a success, as well as the unfolding clusterfuck that they don't think they have a responsibility for. They are not going to commit. It's a race against time.
Sorry if that doesn't massage your ego but since you apparently consider yourself a 'grown up' and yet get upset about these comments I suggest you have quite enough of an ego already.
Edit. Preferential Trade Agreements are uncertain, take years to negotiate, will be far less comprehensive than the arrangements we had as a member of the EU and the Single Market and may not even happen at all. The EU has more PTAs than anyone else but even they don't have a comprehensive trade agreement yet with economies as big as the USA, Japan, China and India.
I suspect the UK PTA will never happen. The pressure to find another quicker and better arrangement will be too strong.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/laura-pidcock-fails-to-practise-what-her-party-preaches/
For all her arrogance I think she's got a lot to learn about public service and what that involves, which includes not buggering off to Italy for several days because she feels she's earned a 30th birthday treat.
(And that goes for the idiot Tory who decided to referee a football match in Spain mid-session as well.)
I'll get my coat...
Kinda important no?
Captain Miller: You've got to take Saint Lo to take Valognes.
Captain Hamill: Valognes you got Cherbourg.
Captain Miller: Cherbourg you got Paris.
Captain Hamill: Paris you got Berlin.
Captain Miller: And then that big boat home.
http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b1f2aa76-ab15-40ce-9602-bb81badab525
(PS. At one point Rushanara Ali shows that she doesn't understand the different between financial leverage and negotiating leverage.)
Given the revenues the Treasury earns from financial services, Leave voters will care.
I the same thread you excoriate Remainers for caring about the issue - and then again for being apathetic about it. There really is little point in arguing with one so obtuse.
No matter what Davis comes back with (And he'll arrive back with a deal of sorts), Tory MPs need to troop through the lobbies to support it so it passes.
Crashing out with no deal could be ruinous to our economy.
Mr. D, my thoughts exactly.
It'd only ever be a deal or no deal vote.
Holidays are an entirely different matter.
Brexiteers will be cheering this. Parliament will be Sovereign, right?
So which is it?
Which brings us back to the views of Remainers. I think it unlikely that in April 2021 we will be in any position to step into a new relationship with the EU (or anyone else) because that would be a cliff-edge. So there will be a *********ion period. And during this *******ion period, we will have a GE and the new govt might decide that it will maintain that status until further notice. Yes we will be out of the EU, but we will look, feel, and indeed quack like we are still in.
What a time to be alive.
Everyone from those who want to join the single currency to those who want WTO terms could disagree with any deal.
Unrelated point: entirely possible to agree without personal insults etc.
*ahem*
NEW THREAD
Most people are pragmatic, they take their view on the options available - at the moment the prospect of fully reversing Brexit seems remote, and the events that would make it a political possibility (a collapse in talks followed by the inevitable economic shock) aren't ones you can wish for or campaign for. Others don't follow the politics that intensely so "accept" it because it's happening, and don't spend their time fretting over trade data or agreements on nuclear material. You think it's bad and find those now plastering the airwaves singing its praises distasteful to say the least, but hey ho, life goes on - just as it does when you vote for the loser in a general election.
So you "accept" Brexit, but it doesn't mean you're in any way happy about it and, as we saw at the last election go out of your way to punish those bringing it about when you get the chance at the ballot box.
But it literally can't amend them
And in this scenario where there's a ticking clock it's idiocy to pretend otherwise