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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » BJohnson now clear betting favourite to succeed TMay

SystemSystem Posts: 12,258
edited October 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » BJohnson now clear betting favourite to succeed TMay

The former Mayor and current foreign secretary is now clear favourite to be the next CON leader but his odds are nothing like as strong as they were in the weekend after the general election.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited October 2017
    First. Unlike Boris in the MP ballot!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763
    Tory party is in utter chaos.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,138

    First. Unlike Boris in the MP ballot!

    Damn.. almost made four in a row :(
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    Tory party is in utter chaos.

    When it reaches the point that Boris is the best answer we have to be wondering if we are asking the right question!
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited October 2017
    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,633
    I prefer the even money that Boris will remain FS to the new year with Lads
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,138
    edited October 2017
    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    I find that hard to believe. This story suggests discussions have been underway since last year.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/18/theresa-may-given-stark-warning-about-leaving-customs-union
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    I find that hard to believe. This story suggests discussions have been underway since last year.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/18/theresa-may-given-stark-warning-about-leaving-customs-union
    I think you must be right. How could they avoid it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518
    Lay the favourite, as always in this market.

    Thanks to Mr Herdson for a very good last thread BTW.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,820

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    I find that hard to believe. This story suggests discussions have been underway since last year.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/18/theresa-may-given-stark-warning-about-leaving-customs-union
    I think you must be right. How could they avoid it?
    There’s a distinction between the Brexit subcommittee and the full cabinet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,947
    edited October 2017

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Could Boris do an 'only Nixon could go to China' style reverse ferret on Brexit? He would handily be able to claim that having written articles both in favour and against, he was swayed by new evidence to stay in.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    I don't think there is a single Tory on here who hasn't criticised her in the past 6 months, myself included.

    The fact that she is still around os a huge testament to her sense of duty, and a sad indictment of the limited options we have until Brexit is complete.

    But the drubbing she is getting on the media isn't being reflected in reality. Most people have more empathy than political commentators. She is earning respect. The rest of her government, not so much...

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,947
    Oldham Fried Chicken - a remarkable Twitter thread -
    https://mobile.twitter.com/GwilymLockwood/status/918221653389213696
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518
    Mortimer said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    I don't think there is a single Tory on here who hasn't criticised her in the past 6 months, myself included.

    The fact that she is still around os a huge testament to her sense of duty, and a sad indictment of the limited options we have until Brexit is complete.

    But the drubbing she is getting on the media isn't being reflected in reality. Most people have more empathy than political commentators. She is earning respect. The rest of her government, not so much...

    :+1:
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    I find that hard to believe. This story suggests discussions have been underway since last year.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/18/theresa-may-given-stark-warning-about-leaving-customs-union
    I think you must be right. How could they avoid it?
    There’s a distinction between the Brexit subcommittee and the full cabinet.
    The Brexit subcommittee has 12 members, so a big share of the Cabinet. It does have a Leaver majority though.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/new-brexit-cabinet-committee-packed-with-pro-leave-mps_uk_5800e659e4b0010a7f3e7f38
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Alas, what options the nation faces. May, Boris, Corbyn.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    Thatcher wasn't v. keen on debate either. It appears that unless you stood up to her you lost. Blair only liked debate with his cronies.

    We have a unwritten constitution but it seems to allow some precedents. Why can't custom and practice set a precedent that a) decisions must be taken by the full cabinet b) proceedings must be minuted? That forces 'elected dictators' like Thatcher, Blair or May to consult colleagues more, like other PMs did.

    Three PMs of this kind in the last 40 years is too many. It could be even worse, imagine May with a majority of 50.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Nigelb said:

    Oldham Fried Chicken - a remarkable Twitter thread -
    https://mobile.twitter.com/GwilymLockwood/status/918221653389213696

    Remarkable!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited October 2017

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    Thatcher wasn't v. keen on debate either. It appears that unless you stood up to her you lost. Blair only liked debate with his cronies.

    We have a unwritten constitution but it seems to allow some precedents. Why can't custom and practice set a precedent that a) decisions must be taken by the full cabinet b) proceedings must be minuted? That forces 'elected dictators' like Thatcher, Blair or May to consult colleagues more, like other PMs did.

    Three PMs of this kind in the last 40 years is too many. It could be even worse, imagine May with a majority of 50.
    Maggie did however keep people with different beliefs in her cabinet though. She was not afraid of debate, but anyone doing so needed to stand on firm ground.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Alas, what options the nation faces. May, Boris, Corbyn.

    Or Thornberry or Stewart, if you look on the brighter side and either party sees sense.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,397
    edited October 2017
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    I find that hard to believe. This story suggests discussions have been underway since last year.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/18/theresa-may-given-stark-warning-about-leaving-customs-union
    That's from a year ago however, when the government was still in its "have cake and eat it" mindset and before the EU published its negotiating schedule. The quoted anonymous cabinet member lists three specific and very major things that were excluded from discussion. I am not aware of a reason to disbelieve them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,947

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Alas, what options the nation faces. May, Boris, Corbyn.

    Or Thornberry or Stewart, if you look on the brighter side and either party sees sense.
    Stewart seems a very decent guy, but I get the strong impression that his ability to make decisions might make Mrs May look decisive.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    I don't think there is a single Tory on here who hasn't criticised her in the past 6 months, myself included.

    The fact that she is still around os a huge testament to her sense of duty, and a sad indictment of the limited options we have until Brexit is complete.

    But the drubbing she is getting on the media isn't being reflected in reality. Most people have more empathy than political commentators. She is earning respect. The rest of her government, not so much...

    :+1:
    True, and the majority political commentators are generally of one mind - they are against Brexit. So she becomes an easy target for their Brexit frustrations. Peston/Faisal/Kunesberg/O'Brien/Rigby/Marr/Hodges/Ganesh/Jones/Coates/Nelson and many others - plus the editorial staff of the Today Program/C4 News/Sky News.

    As against the very few commentators who are pro brexit - Andrew Neil, Iain Dale, Warner, Moore, Heath, Kirkup - few of whom get much broadcast time and mostly only behind he paywall at the telegraph.

    TV and Radio leads opinion now, plus the internet.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    TonyE said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    I don't think there is a single Tory on here who hasn't criticised her in the past 6 months, myself included.

    The fact that she is still around os a huge testament to her sense of duty, and a sad indictment of the limited options we have until Brexit is complete.

    But the drubbing she is getting on the media isn't being reflected in reality. Most people have more empathy than political commentators. She is earning respect. The rest of her government, not so much...

    :+1:
    True, and the majority political commentators are generally of one mind - they are against Brexit. So she becomes an easy target for their Brexit frustrations. Peston/Faisal/Kunesberg/O'Brien/Rigby/Marr/Hodges/Ganesh/Jones/Coates/Nelson and many others - plus the editorial staff of the Today Program/C4 News/Sky News.

    As against the very few commentators who are pro brexit - Andrew Neil, Iain Dale, Warner, Moore, Heath, Kirkup - few of whom get much broadcast time and mostly only behind he paywall at the telegraph.

    TV and Radio leads opinion now, plus the internet.
    Quite so, and given the relentless barrage of anti Brexit and anti May narrative in the media it's remarkable that the Tories and "right to leave" are still so high in the polls.
  • dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,947

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,336
    edited October 2017
    On topic, if Mrs May is gone by Christmas, she needs to go next week if it is going to the members to allow for the MPs vote, and the vote of members (IIRC the ERS said they need 6 to 7 weeks to run the contest last time.)

    I can't see a coronation happening.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,336
    edited October 2017
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508

    On topic, if Mrs May is gone by Christmas, she needs to go next week if it is going to the members to allow for the MPs voter, and the vote of members (IIRC the ERS said they need 6 to 7 weeks to run the contest last time.)

    I can't see a coronation happening.

    Good Oh, let's get on with it. I've got a reasonable amount of cash stuck in the next leader market :-)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Jonathan said:

    Tory party is in utter chaos.

    (Strong and stable my Arse)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    On topic, if Mrs May is gone by Christmas, she needs to go next week if it is going to the members to allow for the MPs vote, and the vote of members (IIRC the ERS said they need 6 to 7 weeks to run the contest last time.)

    I can't see a coronation happening.

    Another coronation would only happen if one of the final two did a Leadsome and withdrew.
  • Nigelb said:

    Oldham Fried Chicken - a remarkable Twitter thread -
    https://mobile.twitter.com/GwilymLockwood/status/918221653389213696

    Remarkable!
    I went to college in Oldham - my 6th form college is in the top of the shot when I streetview Georgia / Kansas / Orlando / Virginia / Dallas Fried Chicken establishments. And I used to catch the bus home just up from Montana / Florida / Michigan / California Fried Chicken...
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    Thatcher wasn't v. keen on debate either. It appears that unless you stood up to her you lost. Blair only liked debate with his cronies.

    We have a unwritten constitution but it seems to allow some precedents. Why can't custom and practice set a precedent that a) decisions must be taken by the full cabinet b) proceedings must be minuted? That forces 'elected dictators' like Thatcher, Blair or May to consult colleagues more, like other PMs did.

    Three PMs of this kind in the last 40 years is too many. It could be even worse, imagine May with a majority of 50.
    Maggie did however keep people with different beliefs in her cabinet though. She was not afraid of debate, but anyone doing so needed to stand on firm ground.
    I read Alan Clarke MP said she used to ask , what members of the government thought was important ,on one occasion he replied to her he was concerned about live animal exports.She just looked bewildered.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    Quite. Even the most enthusiastic see her as a stopgap against worse alternatives. I cannot see any other leader maintaining a majority to push through a Brexit deal - and that would mean a Corbyn Brexit which he would also probably lack the numbers to push through. The critics of May are in truth those who want a political breakdown which will stop Brexit. They simply do not care what the consequences of that would be - hoping/assuming perhaps that the 52% will simply accept it and go away. As one of the 48% I would not be happy with that.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    Thatcher wasn't v. keen on debate either. It appears that unless you stood up to her you lost. Blair only liked debate with his cronies.

    We have a unwritten constitution but it seems to allow some precedents. Why can't custom and practice set a precedent that a) decisions must be taken by the full cabinet b) proceedings must be minuted? That forces 'elected dictators' like Thatcher, Blair or May to consult colleagues more, like other PMs did.

    Three PMs of this kind in the last 40 years is too many. It could be even worse, imagine May with a majority of 50.
    Maggie did however keep people with different beliefs in her cabinet though. She was not afraid of debate, but anyone doing so needed to stand on firm ground.
    As does May to be fair.
  • May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    But once they have changed their leader, thats it until the general election. And Johnson would not be in honeymoon mode once that election comes.
    It would be more sensible to wait a few years, have a new younger leader, and go for an election while he or she is popular.
    Johnson would almost certainly result in another hung parliament. Corbyn will never have an overall majority, but that doesnt mean the Tories will either.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    IMO Charles Blondin would not be able to succeed even without a cough
  • Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
  • Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    You'd have to ask him.

    I suspect not, the Tories trebled university fees and went from a minority to a majority.

    If the policy is well defended, it shouldn't be a problem, Mrs May's narcissistic campaign made sure the economy wasn't discussed as it should have been during the campaign.

    Martin Lewis made a better defence of the fees than any Tory this campaign.

    There was no 'long term economic plan' during this campaign, there was no mention of Liam Byrne's note.

    I know you're no fan of George Osborne, but even you know, as Chancellor or PM he would have hammered Corbyn and McDonnell on the economy, he'd have been relentless, he'd have nailed Corbyn on his vagueness on student debts.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    Don't you mean that you wish all of PB's Tories would acknowledge her failing - since a large proportion have already done so quite vocally ?

    Quite. Even the most enthusiastic see her as a stopgap against worse alternatives. I cannot see any other leader maintaining a majority to push through a Brexit deal - and that would mean a Corbyn Brexit which he would also probably lack the numbers to push through. The critics of May are in truth those who want a political breakdown which will stop Brexit. They simply do not care what the consequences of that would be - hoping/assuming perhaps that the 52% will simply accept it and go away. As one of the 48% I would not be happy with that.
    But, the question arises. How can she push through a Brexit deal if she doesn't know what parameters the rest of the Cabinet are prepared to work within? Or is she prepared to negotiate a deal and attempt to ram it through at the risk of several resignations?
    She doesn't look strong enough to survive such a scenario.
    Are any Cabinet members unwilling to stomach any continued payments?
    Or continued ECJ jurisdiction?
    Would any balk at EEA membership?

    If she doesn't know their opinions on these questions then that is a fearful dereliction of duty.

    Sadly, it would not surprise me at all.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,774
    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    The defining trait of Brexiteers - it's never your fault, however badly you've cocked things up. It's always everyone else's for not agreeing that yes, fairies do exist and they'll make everything wonderful.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    edited October 2017

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority a
    No he didn't - as a joke it shows any of his judgement on her is suspect because he is so emotional about it, which detracts from quite legitimate criticism. If someone, for example, were to rant about May being a bitch all the time, we'd take any other criticism from them with a pinch of salt, so his attitude undermines anything else about her he may say, and so make fixing the problems harder. All he had to do was politically condemn her without violently personal jokes. Certainly he need not go easy on her, but his manner of going after her hasn't helped him or the party, at least from this outsider's perspective.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2017

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    Or for the negative nasty referendum campaign he promoted which contributed to the leave victory.

    Or cutting social care funding by 40 per cent contributing to the need for an alternative - which led to the dementia tax - while promoting massive amounts of corporate welfare such as help to buy for developers

    Or for cutting police budgets and fire budgets and housing budgets which contributed to rising crime, the housing mess and the lack of capacity to respond to major incidents

    Or his just generally being a spiteful nasty piece of work as evidenced by his endless tweeting and carping against the current government from the security of his well paid role at the Standard found for him by an oligarch who did so well like many others from his policies.

    May may just be useless - but Osborne has contributed to the alienation from politics of so many voters who feel they or more significantly their kids have no future in this country.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    brendan16 said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    Or for the negative nasty referendum campaign he promoted which contributed to the leave victory.

    Or cutting social care funding by 40 per cent contributing to the need for an alternative - which led to the dementia tax - while promoting massive amounts of corporate welfare such as help to buy for developers

    Or for cutting police budgets and fire budgets and housing budgets which contributed to rising crime, the housing mess and the lack of capacity to respond to major incidents

    Or his just generally being a spiteful nasty piece of work as evidenced by his endless tweeting and carping against the current government from the security of his well paid role at the Standard found for him by an oligarch who did so well like many others from his policies.

    May may just be useless - but Osborne has contributed to the alienation from politics of so many voters who feel they or more significantly their kids have no future in this country.
    Wasn't george opposed to the referendum in private?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I cannot believe the Tories would want to replace Mrs May as PM. She is the best of the present bunch.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MJW said:

    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    The defining trait of Brexiteers - it's never your fault, however badly you've cocked things up. It's always everyone else's for not agreeing that yes, fairies do exist and they'll make everything wonderful.
    It is really the defining thing about Populism. Simplistic solutions that disintegrate in contact with government.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    surbiton said:

    I cannot believe the Tories would want to replace Mrs May as PM. She is the best of the present bunch.

    I suspect Boris would both make leavers feel better and also be more popular with the country than May.
  • MJW said:

    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    The defining trait of Brexiteers - it's never your fault, however badly you've cocked things up. It's always everyone else's for not agreeing that yes, fairies do exist and they'll make everything wonderful.
    It is really the defining thing about Populism. Simplistic solutions that disintegrate in contact with government.
    No one is after simplistic solutions, they just want to leave the EU.

    Yes it is difficult and it is clear we never should have signed up to all this crud.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518
    edited October 2017
    brendan16 said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    Or for the negative nasty referendum campaign he promoted which contributed to the leave victory.

    Or cutting social care funding by 40 per cent contributing to the need for an alternative - which led to the dementia tax - while promoting massive amounts of corporate welfare such as help to buy for developers

    Or for cutting police budgets and fire budgets and housing budgets which contributed to rising crime, the housing mess and the lack of capacity to respond to major incidents

    Or his just generally being a spiteful nasty piece of work as evidenced by his endless tweeting and carping against the current government from the security of his well paid role at the Standard found for him by an oligarch who did so well like many others from his policies.

    May may just be useless - but Osborne has contributed to the alienation from politics of so many voters who feel they or more significantly their kids have no future in this country.
    You missed out the forthcoming Universal Credit fiasco, used by Osborne as cover for cuts in benefit levels, whilst simultaneously cutting the implementation budget to make the changes happen smoothly.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,912
    edited October 2017

    Nigelb said:


    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.

    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    You'd have to ask him.

    I suspect not, the Tories trebled university fees and went from a minority to a majority.

    If the policy is well defended, it shouldn't be a problem, Mrs May's narcissistic campaign made sure the economy wasn't discussed as it should have been during the campaign.

    Martin Lewis made a better defence of the fees than any Tory this campaign.

    There was no 'long term economic plan' during this campaign, there was no mention of Liam Byrne's note.

    I know you're no fan of George Osborne, but even you know, as Chancellor or PM he would have hammered Corbyn and McDonnell on the economy, he'd have been relentless, he'd have nailed Corbyn on his vagueness on student debts.
    The rise and fall of the LibDems showed how many votes were moved by student debt.

    And what had changed since 2015 is Labour having a leader who promised to end tuition fees and Osborne's freezing of the repayment threshold telling students they were to be financially shafted for 30 years.

    The Conservative campaign was dreadful, filled with arrogance and lack of preparation, but there's no denying that they had been creating vulnerabilities for themselves from 2010 onwards.

    And there's a timescale for governments - the Conservatives have been in control for seven years. Once you're into your second term it becomes increasingly hard to blame what you inherited, instead voters judge you on your own record and how it compares to what you said you would do.

    Which, to be frank, isn't particulalry good. Now we can have a discussion as to the reasons why but the facts remain that wage and home onwership levels have been stagnant and government borrowing has been way more than predicted. Meanwhile the likes of Philip Green have discredited capitalism further.

    The economics of Corbyn and his gang might seem mad to you and me but millions of people think they have nothing to lose and millions more think 'time for a change'.

    In a way its fortunate that the general election came this year - a continuation of their policies until 2020 would have led to certain defeat.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    rkrkrk said:

    surbiton said:

    I cannot believe the Tories would want to replace Mrs May as PM. She is the best of the present bunch.

    I suspect Boris would both make leavers feel better and also be more popular with the country than May.
    Agree, undoubtedly with the first part of your statement.
    Part 2 is more questionable. He may, he may not. Stoke and Mansfield are not noted for the love of obscure Classical reference.

    But the real question is could he govern? Would he be prepared to put in the work?
    Would his reaction to difficult questions be to tell Corbyn to Sod off, as he did at the GLA?
    That might be fun once, but twice?
    We know he can campaign.
    We also know he has a tendency not to play nicely with others.
  • The rise and fall of the LibDems showed how many votes were moved by student debt.

    And what had changed since 2015 is Labour having a leader who promised to end tuition fees and Osborne's freezing of the repayment threshold telling students they were to be financially shafted for 30 years.

    The Conservative campaign was dreadful and filled with arrogance and lack of preparation but there's no denying that they had been creating vulnerabilities for themselves from 2010 onwards.

    And there's a timescale for governments - the Conservatives have been in control for seven years. Once you're into your second term it becomes increasingly hard to blame what you inherited, instead voters judge you on your own record and how it compares to what you said you would do.

    Which, to be frank, isn't particulalry good. Now we can have a discussion as to the reasons why but the facts remain that wage and home onwership levels have been stagnant and government borrowing has been way more than predicted. Meanwhile the likes of Philip Green have discredited capitalism further.

    The economics of Corbyn and his gang might seem mad to you and me but millions of people think they have nothing to lose and millions more think 'time for a change'.

    In a way its fortunate that the general election came this year - a continuation of their policies until 2020 would have led to certain defeat.

    There's a slight myth around the Lib Dem collapse, even before the students fees vote, the Lib Dem vote had collapsed, they went from polling 20% plus in May 2010, to around the 9% to 14% range by conference time that year, and the student fees vote was a month or so later.

    The votes shifted when Labour tactical voters realised the Lib Dems weren't a wholly owned subsidiary of the Labour party.
  • May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Get real. Have you looked at "conservative Home" recently.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,774

    MJW said:

    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    The defining trait of Brexiteers - it's never your fault, however badly you've cocked things up. It's always everyone else's for not agreeing that yes, fairies do exist and they'll make everything wonderful.
    It is really the defining thing about Populism. Simplistic solutions that disintegrate in contact with government.
    No one is after simplistic solutions, they just want to leave the EU.

    Yes it is difficult and it is clear we never should have signed up to all this crud.
    You've just entirely proved the point. "Just wanting to leave" is a simplistic nonsense that disintegrates upon contact with reality and detail. Hopefully, one day you'll have the intelligence to feel some shame, but I doubt it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. MJW, insulting someone is unlikely to persuade them.

    A question does arise about why leaving isn't simple, given the influence of the EU was constantly downplayed by the political class (excepting when they wanted to scratch the back of sceptical voters).
  • Time for Boris to deliver the sunlit uplands and Brexit with no downsides he promised. Put Gove in at Number 11 and hold them fully accountable for everything that happens from here on in. It's the only way forward for the Tories and, therefore, for the country.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,336
    edited October 2017

    Mr. MJW, insulting someone is unlikely to persuade them.

    A question does arise about why leaving isn't simple, given the influence of the EU was constantly downplayed by the political class (excepting when they wanted to scratch the back of sceptical voters).

    Leaving is easy.

    Creating a new legal and regulatory framework/system fit for purpose in the modern multi national world is the challenge, Gove and Boris said that would be easy too.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108
    edited October 2017
    The LibDems' vote collapsed when people realised that NOTA parties are great at suggesting improbable feel good policies and wishful thinking but are not actually fit to govern.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Eagles, depends on the approach taken. I've always said that, excepting the customs union, I'm flexible on most aspects of leaving, particularly in a transitional approach.

    However, for any deal or transition to occur the EU has to actually negotiate.
  • Mr. Eagles, depends on the approach taken. I've always said that, excepting the customs union, I'm flexible on most aspects of leaving, particularly in a transitional approach.

    However, for any deal or transition to occur the EU has to actually negotiate.

    We want to have our cake and our eat it approach isn't working, we're the supplicants, remember the nonsense David Davis an others came out before the referendum.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    surbiton said:

    I cannot believe the Tories would want to replace Mrs May as PM. She is the best of the present bunch.

    They could stick with May , park the £350 million red bus in front of the goal.Keep all the cabinet in their own half and run the clock down.
  • MJW said:

    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    The defining trait of Brexiteers - it's never your fault, however badly you've cocked things up. It's always everyone else's for not agreeing that yes, fairies do exist and they'll make everything wonderful.
    It is really the defining thing about Populism. Simplistic solutions that disintegrate in contact with government.
    You really do need to stop using the word populism as if it is bad thing. It is called democracy. Populism is a word used almost exclusively by those who think the average person should not be allowed to make decisions because they are too ignorant.

    The stupid thing is they then say that those decisions should be made by MPs whose only qualification is they were chosen by the very same people who are apparently too stupid to make decisions.

    If you think people should not be allowed to vote and should be ruled by a technocracy then have the courage to say it in plain language instead of using dumb concepts like 'populism'. That way we will all be clear that you are not in favour of democracy.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Nigelb said:

    Oldham Fried Chicken - a remarkable Twitter thread -
    https://mobile.twitter.com/GwilymLockwood/status/918221653389213696

    Remarkable!
    This one has to be the stand out contributionL

    https://mobile.twitter.com/davidsim/status/918426988666343424/photo/1
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Eagles, supplicants is overdoing it. A mutually beneficial deal is to everyone's advantage, and regardless of what's agreed there'll be a degree of economic turbulence for us.

    The EU also has mostly eurozone members, so any 'risk' of other countries toddling off is minimal.

    If the EU persists in being needlessly and self-harmingly intransigent, the result will be lose-lose rather than win-win.
  • rkrkrk said:

    brendan16 said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    Or for the negative nasty referendum campaign he promoted which contributed to the leave victory.

    Or cutting social care funding by 40 per cent contributing to the need for an alternative - which led to the dementia tax - while promoting massive amounts of corporate welfare such as help to buy for developers

    Or for cutting police budgets and fire budgets and housing budgets which contributed to rising crime, the housing mess and the lack of capacity to respond to major incidents

    Or his just generally being a spiteful nasty piece of work as evidenced by his endless tweeting and carping against the current government from the security of his well paid role at the Standard found for him by an oligarch who did so well like many others from his policies.

    May may just be useless - but Osborne has contributed to the alienation from politics of so many voters who feel they or more significantly their kids have no future in this country.
    Wasn't george opposed to the referendum in private?
    Yep. Another one who thinks the electorate are too dumb to take the important decisions. An elitist who would much rather the great unwashed didn't have the vote.
  • rkrkrk said:

    brendan16 said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    Or for the negative nasty referendum campaign he promoted which contributed to the leave victory.

    Or cutting social care funding by 40 per cent contributing to the need for an alternative - which led to the dementia tax - while promoting massive amounts of corporate welfare such as help to buy for developers

    Or for cutting police budgets and fire budgets and housing budgets which contributed to rising crime, the housing mess and the lack of capacity to respond to major incidents

    Or his just generally being a spiteful nasty piece of work as evidenced by his endless tweeting and carping against the current government from the security of his well paid role at the Standard found for him by an oligarch who did so well like many others from his policies.

    May may just be useless - but Osborne has contributed to the alienation from politics of so many voters who feel they or more significantly their kids have no future in this country.
    Wasn't george opposed to the referendum in private?
    Yep. Another one who thinks the electorate are too dumb to take the important decisions. An elitist who would much rather the great unwashed didn't have the vote.
    His view is that of Margaret Thatcher, referendums often become a way of kicking an unpopular government, and the substance of the referendum isn't discussed nearly enough during the campaign.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,820

    You really do need to stop using the word populism as if it is bad thing. It is called democracy. Populism is a word used almost exclusively by those who think the average person should not be allowed to make decisions because they are too ignorant.

    Populism is telling people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.
  • MJW said:

    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    The defining trait of Brexiteers - it's never your fault, however badly you've cocked things up. It's always everyone else's for not agreeing that yes, fairies do exist and they'll make everything wonderful.
    It is really the defining thing about Populism. Simplistic solutions that disintegrate in contact with government.
    You really do need to stop using the word populism as if it is bad thing. It is called democracy. Populism is a word used almost exclusively by those who think the average person should not be allowed to make decisions because they are too ignorant.

    The stupid thing is they then say that those decisions should be made by MPs whose only qualification is they were chosen by the very same people who are apparently too stupid to make decisions.

    If you think people should not be allowed to vote and should be ruled by a technocracy then have the courage to say it in plain language instead of using dumb concepts like 'populism'. That way we will all be clear that you are not in favour of democracy.

    Populism is not the fault of the voters, but of the populists. And their simplistic solutions do collapse in the face of reality. The lesson is not that the vote should be restricted, but that populists should treat voters with more respect and engage with them honestly. The referendum campaign was essentially two sides fibbing to the electorate.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,820

    Election forecast

    "London would see... Lab: 49 (+6) Con: 21 (-7) LDem: 3 (+1) Notable MPs at risk incl. IDS, Justine Greening and Zac Goldsmith."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Observer, whilst I agree on the campaigns, there was much deceit long before that. Powers were frittered away and we were bound ever closer, without consent or consultation, to the EU by people who then claimed such things weren't happening (not unlike Clegg laughing off the idea of an EU army).

    Anyway, I must be off.
  • You really do need to stop using the word populism as if it is bad thing. It is called democracy. Populism is a word used almost exclusively by those who think the average person should not be allowed to make decisions because they are too ignorant.

    Populism is telling people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.
    Which again assumes the population are too dumb to make up their own minds. Anyway unelected technocratic governments seem to be the way forward in your beloved EU. Just look at Italy.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,820

    Powers were frittered away and we were bound ever closer, without consent or consultation, to the EU by people who then claimed such things weren't happening (not unlike Clegg laughing off the idea of an EU army).

    It's astonishing how much of a hate figure Clegg has become despite only ever having a relatively minor role. The way some people talk you'd think he bestrode the political scene like a colossus for a decade.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,429
    Go, Go, Go Bozo.... I mean BoJo.... :D
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,138
    I would enjoy watching the convoy of trucks heading towards Brussels
  • MJW said:

    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    The defining trait of Brexiteers - it's never your fault, however badly you've cocked things up. It's always everyone else's for not agreeing that yes, fairies do exist and they'll make everything wonderful.
    It is really the defining thing about Populism. Simplistic solutions that disintegrate in contact with government.
    You really do need to stop using the word populism as if it is bad thing. It is called democracy. Populism is a word used almost exclusively by those who think the average person should not be allowed to make decisions because they are too ignorant.

    The stupid thing is they then say that those decisions should be made by MPs whose only qualification is they were chosen by the very same people who are apparently too stupid to make decisions.

    If you think people should not be allowed to vote and should be ruled by a technocracy then have the courage to say it in plain language instead of using dumb concepts like 'populism'. That way we will all be clear that you are not in favour of democracy.

    Populism is not the fault of the voters, but of the populists. And their simplistic solutions do collapse in the face of reality. The lesson is not that the vote should be restricted, but that populists should treat voters with more respect and engage with them honestly. The referendum campaign was essentially two sides fibbing to the electorate.

    People are not dumb. They make their own minds up about things and we should allow them to do that without then saying that somehow their decisions are not to be respected. Anyway, as I said, we trust them to make decisions about who represents them in Parliament yet you don't want to trust them to make decisions about specific matters of constitutional importance that decides how they are governed.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    surbiton said:

    I cannot believe the Tories would want to replace Mrs May as PM. She is the best of the present bunch.

    I suspect Boris would both make leavers feel better and also be more popular with the country than May.
    Agree, undoubtedly with the first part of your statement.
    Part 2 is more questionable. He may, he may not. Stoke and Mansfield are not noted for the love of obscure Classical reference.

    But the real question is could he govern? Would he be prepared to put in the work?
    Would his reaction to difficult questions be to tell Corbyn to Sod off, as he did at the GLA?
    That might be fun once, but twice?
    We know he can campaign.
    We also know he has a tendency not to play nicely with others.
    He'd certainly need some very capable people working for him.
  • rkrkrk said:

    brendan16 said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    Or for the negative nasty referendum campaign he promoted which contributed to the leave victory.

    Or cutting social care funding by 40 per cent contributing to the need for an alternative - which led to the dementia tax - while promoting massive amounts of corporate welfare such as help to buy for developers

    Or for cutting police budgets and fire budgets and housing budgets which contributed to rising crime, the housing mess and the lack of capacity to respond to major incidents

    Or his just generally being a spiteful nasty piece of work as evidenced by his endless tweeting and carping against the current government from the security of his well paid role at the Standard found for him by an oligarch who did so well like many others from his policies.

    May may just be useless - but Osborne has contributed to the alienation from politics of so many voters who feel they or more significantly their kids have no future in this country.
    Wasn't george opposed to the referendum in private?
    Yep. Another one who thinks the electorate are too dumb to take the important decisions. An elitist who would much rather the great unwashed didn't have the vote.
    His view is that of Margaret Thatcher, referendums often become a way of kicking an unpopular government, and the substance of the referendum isn't discussed nearly enough during the campaign.
    If you think the substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum then you are clearly mad.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,820

    People are not dumb. They make their own minds up about things and we should allow them to do that without then saying that somehow their decisions are not to be respected. Anyway, as I said, we trust them to make decisions about who represents them in Parliament yet you don't want to trust them to make decisions about specific matters of constitutional importance that decides how they are governed.

    You're in favour of a vote on the deal vs remaining in the EU?
  • If you think the substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum then you are clearly mad.

    The discussion was about his view before the referendum, not after it.
  • People are not dumb. They make their own minds up about things and we should allow them to do that without then saying that somehow their decisions are not to be respected. Anyway, as I said, we trust them to make decisions about who represents them in Parliament yet you don't want to trust them to make decisions about specific matters of constitutional importance that decides how they are governed.

    You're in favour of a vote on the deal vs remaining in the EU?
    I am in favour of a vote on which form of Brexit we have. We already voted on leaving and don't think voting again on the same subject until we 'give the right answer' is the way. But yes I would be happy on a vote on the form of Brexit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518
    RobD said:

    I would enjoy watching the convoy of trucks heading towards Brussels
    We’d need to send a few to Strasbourg too, don’t forget. ;)
  • MJW said:

    Sandpit said:

    May is a bit crap, but the hyperbolic bleatings about her almost all come from remainer losers.

    They see Brexit as so destructive that in their mind anyone trying to carry it out is an absolute disaster regardless of what they do. Hence the non-stop criticism of the government even when it's their beloved EU acting like a complete arse in negotiations.

    Quite. The whole thing is being whipped up by no more than a handful of MPs and a dozen journalists, all of whom think that if they turn the volume up past 11 they’ll be somehow be able to stop Brexit.

    Ironically, the most likely outcome of their actions is a hard, “no-deal” exit from the EU. Maybe they’ll be happy with that, so they can scream that they told us so.
    The defining trait of Brexiteers - it's never your fault, however badly you've cocked things up. It's always everyone else's for not agreeing that yes, fairies do exist and they'll make everything wonderful.
    It is really the defining thing about Populism. Simplistic solutions that disintegrate in contact with government.
    You really do need to stop using the word populism as if it is bad thing. It is called democracy. Populism is a word used almost exclusively by those who think the average person should not be allowed to make decisions because they are too ignorant.

    The stupid thing is they then say that those decisions should be made by MPs whose only qualification is they were chosen by the very same people who are apparently too stupid to make decisions.

    If you think people should not be allowed to vote and should be ruled by a technocracy then have the courage to say it in plain language instead of using dumb concepts like 'populism'. That way we will all be clear that you are not in favour of democracy.

    Populism is not theo the electorate.

    People are not dumb. They make their own minds up about things and we should allow them to do that without then saying that somehow their decisions are not to be respected. Anyway, as I said, we trust them to make decisions about who represents them in Parliament yet you don't want to trust them to make decisions about specific matters of constitutional importance that decides how they are governed.

    No, I didn't say that. What I said was that the referendum campaign was an exercise in dishonesty on both sides. I think voters deserved better.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,518

    rkrkrk said:

    brendan16 said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    Or for the negative nasty referendum campaign he promoted which contributed to the leave victory.

    Or cutting social care funding by 40 per cent contributing to the need for an alternative - which led to the dementia tax - while promoting massive amounts of corporate welfare such as help to buy for developers

    Or for cutting police budgets and fire budgets and housing budgets which contributed to rising crime, the housing mess and the lack of capacity to respond to major incidents

    Or his just generally being a spiteful nasty piece of work as evidenced by his endless tweeting and carping against the current government from the security of his well paid role at the Standard found for him by an oligarch who did so well like many others from his policies.

    May may just be useless - but Osborne has contributed to the alienation from politics of so many voters who feel they or more significantly their kids have no future in this country.
    Wasn't george opposed to the referendum in private?
    Yep. Another one who thinks the electorate are too dumb to take the important decisions. An elitist who would much rather the great unwashed didn't have the vote.
    His view is that of Margaret Thatcher, referendums often become a way of kicking an unpopular government, and the substance of the referendum isn't discussed nearly enough during the campaign.
    Are you seriously suggesting that we didn’t talk enough about the EU before the referendum?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,255
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority a
    No he didn't - as a joke it shows any of his judgement on her is suspect because he is so emotional about it, which detracts from quite legitimate criticism. If someone, for example, were to rant about May being a bitch all the time, we'd take any other criticism from them with a pinch of salt, so his attitude undermines anything else about her he may say, and so make fixing the problems harder. All he had to do was politically condemn her without violently personal jokes. Certainly he need not go easy on her, but his manner of going after her hasn't helped him or the party, at least from this outsider's perspective.
    Spot on. It hasn't helped him with the Party either. If Osborne re-emerges in front-line politics, I suspect it will be with a new Party. He will fit nicely with Blair and Clegg in one easy-to-vote-against grouping.....
  • If you think the substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum then you are clearly mad.

    The discussion was about his view before the referendum, not after it.
    So was my comment. Your comment was that he believed "the substance of the referendum isn't discussed nearly enough during the campaign".

    So again. If you think he substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum campaign then you are clearly mad.
  • If you think the substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum then you are clearly mad.

    The discussion was about his view before the referendum, not after it.
    So was my comment. Your comment was that he believed "the substance of the referendum isn't discussed nearly enough during the campaign".

    So again. If you think he substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum campaign then you are clearly mad.
    I didn't say that, the discussion was talking about why Osborne advised not holding an EU referendum back in 2014.
  • No, I didn't say that. What I said was that the referendum campaign was an exercise in dishonesty on both sides. I think voters deserved better.

    Of course they deserve better. All politicians are dishonest. But the implication is that people are not able to differentiate between facts and spin. Of course the problem is that most of the time the elite wants people to think their spin is indeed fact.
  • If you think the substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum then you are clearly mad.

    The discussion was about his view before the referendum, not after it.
    So was my comment. Your comment was that he believed "the substance of the referendum isn't discussed nearly enough during the campaign".

    So again. If you think he substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum campaign then you are clearly mad.
    I didn't say that, the discussion was talking about why Osborne advised not holding an EU referendum back in 2014.
    Because he didn't trust the people to vote 'the right way'. He was and is an elitist who thinks he and his kind should be left to get on with running the country without all that horrible interference from the voters.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    People are not dumb. They make their own minds up about things and we should allow them to do that without then saying that somehow their decisions are not to be respected. Anyway, as I said, we trust them to make decisions about who represents them in Parliament yet you don't want to trust them to make decisions about specific matters of constitutional importance that decides how they are governed.

    You're in favour of a vote on the deal vs remaining in the EU?
    Why would those be the terms of another referendum?

    We're leaving; all that is up for debate now is the manner of that leaving.
  • rkrkrk said:

    brendan16 said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    No Cabinet discussion? If true, that is a scandal. How are we supposed to negotiate on that basis?
    Utter shambles.

    Mrs. May has never been one for consultation as we saw with her approach to Article 50. She wants to retain all power to make decisions without the tedious business of bringing in others. This is a big weakness and undermines the notion of cabinet government.

    I wish some of PB's Tories would acknowledge her huge failings.
    You want me to start criticising Mrs May?

    I've been quite restrained when I've talked about Mrs May in the past.
    Tell us how you really feel, TSE.
    Now, about that freezer gag....

    On the freezer joke, George Osborne showed admirable restraint towards the women that pissed away the Tory majority and has made Corbyn as PM quite likely.
    A serious question.

    Does George blame himself at all for the student debt shambles and its electoral consequnces ?
    Or for the negative nasty referendum campaign he promoted which contributed to the leave victory.

    Or cutting social care funding by 40 per cent contributing to the need for an alternative - which led to the dementia tax - while promoting massive amounts of corporate welfare such as help to buy for developers

    Or for cutting police budgets and fire budgets and housing budgets which contributed to rising crime, the housing mess and the lack of capacity to respond to major incidents

    Or his just generally being a spiteful nasty piece of work as evidenced by his endless tweeting and carping against the current government from the security of his well paid role at the Standard found for him by an oligarch who did so well like many others from his policies.

    May may just be useless - but Osborne has contributed to the alienation from politics of so many voters who feel they or more significantly their kids have no future in this country.
    Wasn't george opposed to the referendum in private?
    Yep. Another one who thinks the electorate are too dumb to take the important decisions. An elitist who would much rather the great unwashed didn't have the vote.
    His view is that of Margaret Thatcher, referendums often become a way of kicking an unpopular government, and the substance of the referendum isn't discussed nearly enough during the campaign.
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    GIN1138 said:

    Go, Go, Go Bozo.... I mean BoJo.... :D

    Good riddance to the vain blond bombshell from NY - no, I don't mean Trump.

    The swagger and arrogance of Old Etonians and their ilk, and their presumption that they have an inherent right to rule the UK, is not in the interest of most British people. I was delighted that Cameron was humiIiated on 24/6/17 and I'd rather prefer Corbyn as PM to any Tory toff. However, I do hope that May (who, like Thatcher, is not a toff) is not forced from office before April 2019.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    If you think the substance of Brexit was not discussed enough in the referendum then you are clearly mad.

    It wasn't though.

    Point me to the great debate about whether we left the single market or not, and the impact leaving would have on Euratom and the Open Skies agreement.

    Oh...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Mortimer said:

    We're leaving; all that is up for debate now is the manner of that leaving.

    Badly, very badly, catastrophically or cataclysmically...
This discussion has been closed.