Speaking as one of the 28%, my position is as follows:
1. We had a referendum, which I supported. Of course I respect the result, so I think we should now leave the EU.
2. That doesn't mean that I have changed my view on the merits of leaving. It's still a big risk, and the benefits of leaving strike me as not worth the risk. The only thing which has perhaps changed is that the risk of leaving looks even bigger now, because Brexit+Corbyn together is a seriously nasty prospect by any measure.
3. In any case, even if I did decide that we should try to stop Brexit, there is no party offering that in any coherent form. The LibDems seem to be proposing a bizarre second referendum where the choices would be accepting whatever deal is on offer, or crashing out with no deal at all. I applaud their pro-EU integrity in one sense (or at least I would if they had voted against holding the referendum), but the practicalities are bonkers.
4. Well, I'm not going to vote Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne/Lansman under any circumstances whatsoever, am I, but in any case Labour aren't offering anything different to the Conservatives on this, so Brexit is totally irrelevant to anyone who might be tempted to switch from the Tories to Labour.
As always, I try to deal with the world as it is. Yes, of course, if there were a scenario where I could vote for a Cameron/Osborne government, remaining in the EU with Dave's rather good if maligned deal, then I would do. That's not on offer, Brexit is going to happen, it's time to draw a line under the referendum and get on with crafting a post-Brexit Britain which is economically sensible and which reflects the values I would support.
Point 2 is a very strong one indeed. That's why I am with you on not wasting time on a referendum. Best to get the Brexit deal right. That will not happen until the Tory head-bangers are abandoned to howl at the moon. A bad Brexit, of course, is Corbyn's best friend.
Not my fault if you're unable to remove the scales from your eyes.
What is your fault is that you have deliberately sought to spread entirely false statements about me, even when corrected, simply because you are uncomfortable with my world view.
An apology is in order.
Jog on. You deserve none and you will get none.
You insist you labelling anyone who engages with you on the EU from the Leave side as a "typical Leaver" (or worse) because this allows you to be ruder to them, and denigrate them.
Your comments have shown you up to be ignorant, arrogant and ill-informed, and you refuse to admit it.
Not my fault if you're unable to remove the scales from your eyes.
What is your fault is that you have deliberately sought to spread entirely false statements about me, even when corrected, simply because you are uncomfortable with my world view.
An apology is in order.
Jog on. You deserve none and you will get none.
You insist you labelling anyone who engages with you on the EU from the Leave side as a "typical Leaver" (or worse) because this allows you to be ruder to them, and denigrate them.
Your comments have shown you up to be ignorant, arrogant and ill-informed, and you refuse to admit it.
You should be apologising to me.
So you're quite comfortable telling deliberate untruths about other posters because it suits your agenda.
@Casino_Royale - You've said in the past that you have been surprised to discover since the referendum that there are people who passionately support the EU, having previously believed that the British were all secretly uncomfortable with it even if they went along with it for pragmatic reasons.
That's not quite right. I said I've been surprise at how divisive and strong the reaction against it has been. I didn't expect it to get this bitter. But that includes a lot of people who don't hold much love for the EU but are pissed off over its short-term negative economic consequences.
No doubt there are those that passionately support the EU, but I'd put this at between 15-20% of the population, not 48%.
Before the referendum about 10% - 15% at a push - loved the EU and passionately supported our membership. The referendum probably didn't push that figure much higher but did energise a cohort of people who've decided Brexit is a Very Bad Thing because some politicians they don't like supported it.
@Casino_Royale - You've said in the past that you have been surprised to discover since the referendum that there are people who passionately support the EU, having previously believed that the British were all secretly uncomfortable with it even if they went along with it for pragmatic reasons.
That's not quite right. I said I've been surprise at how divisive and strong the reaction against it has been. I didn't expect it to get this bitter. But that includes a lot of people who don't hold much love for the EU but are pissed off over its short-term negative economic consequences.
No doubt there are those that passionately support the EU, but I'd put this at between 15-20% of the population, not 48%.
Before the referendum about 10% - 15% at a push - loved the EU and passionately supported our membership. The referendum probably didn't push that figure much higher but did energise a cohort of people who've decided Brexit is a Very Bad Thing because some politicians they don't like supported it.
There's a fairly high percentage who've seen the deliberate deceit (shown on this thread) that many Leavers practised, indeed revelled in, and were appalled by that.
I feel much like you. But I think Britain needs - if it were to vote Remain (and the EU is far less worrying to me, even with all its faults, than Corbyn/McDonnell and co) - to take a proper, strategic, sensible and involved role in the EU in a way it has never done in the past.
We need to join the Euro. It is the only way to get back to the top table.
They should opinion poll that........
"Should Britain be at the top table of European nations?"
We never have been before. Why should that change now?
What were we doing at the Congress of Vienna then?
And at Utrecht, Paris, Versailles ... answer in all cases: we got there by winning wars, not signing up to currencies.
If you think of it in those terms, the way to win the 'war' in this context is to convince your electorate to move faster on integration so that you can use your first-mover advantage to define the terms that later apply to all. That's what Macron is currently trying to do.
You misunderstand me: I am not saying that we need to be at the top table and giving Johnny Foreigner a bloody nose is the way to get there, I am saying that top-tableism is essentially militaristic, as your choice of conference shows, and I would therefore be happier without it.
I think the number of Brits who are active supporters of the EU is significantly higher than before the referendum, mainly because many more people are far better informed about the true impact of membership on our governance, economy et al. They are therefore much better informed about the sheer level of disruption that would be caused if we were to leave without some kind of deal and insufficient preparation.
@Casino_Royale - You've said in the past that you have been surprised to discover since the referendum that there are people who passionately support the EU, having previously believed that the British were all secretly uncomfortable with it even if they went along with it for pragmatic reasons.
That's not quite right. I said I've been surprise at how divisive and strong the reaction against it has been. I didn't expect it to get this bitter. But that includes a lot of people who don't hold much love for the EU but are pissed off over its short-term negative economic consequences.
No doubt there are those that passionately support the EU, but I'd put this at between 15-20% of the population, not 48%.
Before the referendum about 10% - 15% at a push - loved the EU and passionately supported our membership. The referendum probably didn't push that figure much higher but did energise a cohort of people who've decided Brexit is a Very Bad Thing because some politicians they don't like supported it.
I suspect that prior to the referendum a lot of people had not really given much thought to their identity and what it means to them to be British and European. Having done so, quite a few found out they were more European than they thought they were - especially when it became clear that rights they had enjoyed - even if they had not been exercised - were going to be taken away from them and their families. To an extent I'd say that applies to me. I am gong to lose something it turns out was quite important to me: my EU citizenship. Much of my fury at the clowns who led the Leave campaign without having any idea about what would happen next is that they sold a Brexit vision that turns out to be completely false - leaving is not easy, they do not need us more than we need them, there are downsides and German car manufacturers are not beating down anyone's doors to demand a deal is done.
@Casino_Royale - You've said in the past that you have been surprised to discover since the referendum that there are people who passionately support the EU, having previously believed that the British were all secretly uncomfortable with it even if they went along with it for pragmatic reasons.
That's not quite right. I said I've been surprise at how divisive and strong the reaction against it has been. I didn't expect it to get this bitter. But that includes a lot of people who don't hold much love for the EU but are pissed off over its short-term negative economic consequences.
No doubt there are those that passionately support the EU, but I'd put this at between 15-20% of the population, not 48%.
Before the referendum about 10% - 15% at a push - loved the EU and passionately supported our membership. The referendum probably didn't push that figure much higher but did energise a cohort of people who've decided Brexit is a Very Bad Thing because some politicians they don't like supported it.
I suspect that prior to the referendum a lot of people had not really given much thought to their identity and what it means to them to be British and European. Having done so, quite a few found out they were more European than they thought they were - especially when it became clear that rights they had enjoyed - even if they had not been exercised - were going to be taken away from them and their families. To an extent I'd say that applies to me. I am gong to lose something it turns out was quite important to me: my EU citizenship. Much of my fury at the clowns who led the Leave campaign without having any idea about what would happen next is that they sold a Brexit vision that turns out to be completely false - leaving is not easy, they do not need us more than we need them, there are downsides and German car manufacturers are not beating down anyone's doors to demand a deal is done.
The 28% of Conservative supporters who support Remain must be at least as up for grabs as any Labour supporters. It's very hard to see what they're getting out of their historical loyalty at present, given the headlong rush to car crash Brexit.
Their disappointment at leaving the EU doesn't mean these Tories suddenly become relaxed about Corbyn trashing the UK economy. Do you actually know any Tories?
The world does not divide starkly into black and white, Mr Mark, though that is how you seem to see it. There is also a large patch of glowing sun-like orange, which ought to be attractive to former Conservative voters who wish to remain in the EU.
The fact that you cannot see it, does not mean that it does not exist.
That would be why Tim Farron increased his majority from 9,000 to 777 !
The 28% of Conservative supporters who support Remain must be at least as up for grabs as any Labour supporters. It's very hard to see what they're getting out of their historical loyalty at present, given the headlong rush to car crash Brexit.
Their disappointment at leaving the EU doesn't mean these Tories suddenly become relaxed about Corbyn trashing the UK economy.
Do you actually know any Tories?
All the Tories I knew are now ex-Tories, having concluded that they don't want to stay on a bus being driven off a cliff. Meanwhile, those staying on board are raucously singing Summer Holiday.
So the answer is you dont know any of those 28% who are "up for grabs". Thank you for clearing that up.
Given how aggressively Conservative Leavers deride anyone who supports Remain, one can observe with confidence that they don't have much of a handle on the Conservative Remainers.
My father and his friends were Remain Conservatives, who might vote Lib Dem in secondary elections, but detest the politics of Jeremy Corbyn, and would vote Conservative at a general election to keep him out. I expect a lot of the 28% think similarly.
All of which points to the Conservatives having a rather obvious key man risk.
If indeed Labour were led by someone closer to the centre, then I think people like my father might contemplate giving them a chance. But, Corbyn seems firmly in charge.
@Casino_Royale - You've said in the past that you have been surprised to discover since the referendum that there are people who passionately support the EU, having previously believed that the British were all secretly uncomfortable with it even if they went along with it for pragmatic reasons.
That's not quite right. I said I've been surprise at how divisive and strong the reaction against it has been. I didn't expect it to get this bitter. But that includes a lot of people who don't hold much love for the EU but are pissed off over its short-term negative economic consequences.
No doubt there are those that passionately support the EU, but I'd put this at between 15-20% of the population, not 48%.
Bitterness was inevitable when the nation was split more or less evenly, yet was going to be treated as a landslide endorsement.
It may well be unresolvable as LINO satisfies neither side. I accept the result but am pissed off with my country as a result.
I think the number of Brits who are active supporters of the EU is significantly higher than before the referendum, mainly because many more people are far better informed about the true impact of membership on our governance, economy et al. They are therefore much better informed about the sheer level of disruption that would be caused if we were to leave without some kind of deal and insufficient preparation.
Pre-referendum Nat Cen surveys consistently showed the favoured position among the public was EU membership, with powers returned to national governments. But, that was never on offer. The Referendum gave a binary choice, and hardened opinion at both ends of the spectrum. Most eurosceptics became more so, while lukewarm supporters of the EU became more committed.
Not my fault if you're unable to remove the scales from your eyes.
What is your fault is that you have deliberately sought to spread entirely false statements about me, even when corrected, simply because you are uncomfortable with my world view.
An apology is in order.
Jog on. You deserve none and you will get none.
You insist you labelling anyone who engages with you on the EU from the Leave side as a "typical Leaver" (or worse) because this allows you to be ruder to them, and denigrate them.
Your comments have shown you up to be ignorant, arrogant and ill-informed, and you refuse to admit it.
You should be apologising to me.
Get a room, guys. We're interested in your opinions on Brexit, not your opinions on each other.
Mike, as much as I like your website, you MUST learn to write better English. Your title should read 'If there were to be,' rather than if there was to be. We call the former construction 'subjunctive.' Such mistakes seriously devalue your work.
@RoyalBlue " The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church " as St Cyprian rightly observed. It would have been exactly the same if a 52/48 Remain vote had been interpreted as a mandate for Schengen and Euro membership. But as it was 52/48 Leave we're stuck with the consequences of that not the hypothetical. But what's become clearer by the day is that Hard Brexiters have over played their hand. In that sense in softening it in the short term May has done Brexit a long term favour.
Condemns all violence including by the Govt and its President
Straight answer IMO
LOL! A straight answer which had to be extracted under duress, heavily qualified by utter waffle about a non-existent democratic process, and - most tellingly of all - blaming Venezuela's economic problems purely on the fall in the oil price. Which is unsurprising, given that Maduro's and Chavez's policies are ones which he regards as a model, "an inspiration to all of us fighting back against austerity and neoliberal economics in Europe”
@Casino_Royale - You've said in the past that you have been surprised to discover since the referendum that there are people who passionately support the EU, having previously believed that the British were all secretly uncomfortable with it even if they went along with it for pragmatic reasons.
That's not quite right. I said I've been surprise at how divisive and strong the reaction against it has been. I didn't expect it to get this bitter. But that includes a lot of people who don't hold much love for the EU but are pissed off over its short-term negative economic consequences.
No doubt there are those that passionately support the EU, but I'd put this at between 15-20% of the population, not 48%.
Bitterness was inevitable when the nation was split more or less evenly, yet was going to be treated as a landslide endorsement.
It may well be unresolvable as LINO satisfies neither side. I accept the result but am pissed off with my country as a result.
I think the number of Brits who are active supporters of the EU is significantly higher than before the referendum, mainly because many more people are far better informed about the true impact of membership on our governance, economy et al. They are therefore much better informed about the sheer level of disruption that would be caused if we were to leave without some kind of deal and insufficient preparation.
Pre-referendum Nat Cen surveys consistently showed the favoured position among the public was EU membership, with powers returned to national governments. But, that was never on offer. The Referendum gave a binary choice, and hardened opinion at both ends of the spectrum. Most eurosceptics became more so, while lukewarm supporters of the EU became more committed.
Not my fault if you're unable to remove the scales from your eyes.
What is your fault is that you have deliberately sought to spread entirely false statements about me, even when corrected, simply because you are uncomfortable with my world view.
An apology is in order.
Jog on. You deserve none and you will get none.
You insist you labelling anyone who engages with you on the EU from the Leave side as a "typical Leaver" (or worse) because this allows you to be ruder to them, and denigrate them.
Your comments have shown you up to be ignorant, arrogant and ill-informed, and you refuse to admit it.
You should be apologising to me.
So you're quite comfortable telling deliberate untruths about other posters because it suits your agenda.
Noted.
Mr Meeks holds his views and is robust in his defence but just because he wont come round to your opinion does not make him any of the things you accuse hin of.
@RoyalBlue " The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church " as St Cyprian rightly observed. It would have been exactly the same if a 52/48 Remain vote had been interpreted as a mandate for Schengen and Euro membership. But as it was 52/48 Leave we're stuck with the consequences of that not the hypothetical. But what's become clearer by the day is that Hard Brexiters have over played their hand. In that sense in softening it in the short term May has done Brexit a long term favour.
May is justing getting on with it meeting the Irish PM yesterday and Tusk today with more meeting with leaders later this week. I believe we are edging towards a compromise and hopefully it will suit both sides and we move on. The extreme remainers and leavers will not win as you cannot meet them in the middle
And to state the obvious it's impossible to rerun the referendum. Any further referendum would be in the light of two years of additional information and a much clearer idea what Brexit means in practice. It would also have the psychological hurdle of the nation changing it's mind/giving in*
For instance who would be the Status Quo option n a second referendum ? We are still in. We haven't left. Yet unless we proactively voted Remain we would leave and the government is pro Leave. Which side would be the " protest " vote ?
@RoyalBlue " The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church " as St Cyprian rightly observed. It would have been exactly the same if a 52/48 Remain vote had been interpreted as a mandate for Schengen and Euro membership. But as it was 52/48 Leave we're stuck with the consequences of that not the hypothetical. But what's become clearer by the day is that Hard Brexiters have over played their hand. In that sense in softening it in the short term May has done Brexit a long term favour.
May is justing getting on with it meeting the Irish PM yesterday and Tusk today with more meeting with leaders later this week. I believe we are edging towards a compromise and hopefully it will suit both sides and we move on. The extreme remainers and leavers will not win as you cannot meet them in the middle
@RoyalBlue " The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church " as St Cyprian rightly observed. It would have been exactly the same if a 52/48 Remain vote had been interpreted as a mandate for Schengen and Euro membership. But as it was 52/48 Leave we're stuck with the consequences of that not the hypothetical. But what's become clearer by the day is that Hard Brexiters have over played their hand. In that sense in softening it in the short term May has done Brexit a long term favour.
To be brutally honest, I don't think there is a majority for Hard Brexit if it results in material economic disruption and a sustained fall in purchasing power for the medium term. There is absolutely no majority for Eurofederalism, but as long we remain a member of EU we will keep being dragged toward the final objective.
For this reason, I think EEA membership best represents the settled will of the British people. It is certainly not my first preference, but it is the only option that can command the support of 60%+. Personally speaking, I would much rather that Europe was settled as an issue in British politics, and that this awful division start to subside, than get my ideal model of UK-Europe relations.
If only we could have a quick referendum on EEA vs Hard Brexit.
Condemns all violence including by the Govt and its President
Straight answer IMO
LOL! A straight answer which had to be extracted under duress, heavily qualified by utter waffle about a non-existent democratic process, and - most tellingly of all - blaming Venezuela's economic problems purely on the fall in the oil price. Which is unsurprising, given that Maduro's and Chavez's policies are ones which he regards as a model, "an inspiration to all of us fighting back against austerity and neoliberal economics in Europe”
This is true. However, the headline clearly states "Corbyn snaps". He doesn't. Which is why many dismiss anything in The Sun as "fake news." The niceties of what he did or did not say will not register. And they (the newspapers in general) wonder why their influence is declining.
Dyson is developing his electric car in Wiltshire and will 'hoover' up all his competitors
e-trabant, with a range of about 50 miles.
If Dyson is creating this new car, who is going to fund the many charging points and the power generation needed to keep them going? I hope it is an advance on that Enfield design.
@RoyalBlue " The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church " as St Cyprian rightly observed. It would have been exactly the same if a 52/48 Remain vote had been interpreted as a mandate for Schengen and Euro membership. But as it was 52/48 Leave we're stuck with the consequences of that not the hypothetical. But what's become clearer by the day is that Hard Brexiters have over played their hand. In that sense in softening it in the short term May has done Brexit a long term favour.
To be brutally honest, I don't think there is a majority for Hard Brexit if it results in material economic disruption and a sustained fall in purchasing power for the medium term. There is absolutely no majority for Eurofederalism, but as long we remain a member of EU we will keep being dragged toward the final objective.
For this reason, I think EEA membership best represents the settled will of the British people. It is certainly not my first preference, but it is the only option that can command the support of 60%+. Personally speaking, I would much rather that Europe was settled as an issue in British politics, and that this awful division start to subside, than get my ideal model of UK-Europe relations.
If only we could have a quick referendum on EEA vs Hard Brexit.
It is in the process of being settled. Your proposed solution of a quick referendum on EEA vs Hard Brexit (with the EEA winning) would just prevent this process from being seen through to completion.
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
Mike, as much as I like your website, you MUST learn to write better English. Your title should read 'If there were to be,' rather than if there was to be. We call the former construction 'subjunctive.' Such mistakes seriously devalue your work.
We call the construction the protasis of a conditional clause, actually; it is the mood of the verb which, as you rightly say, should be subjunctive.
About 35% of Labour voters voted Leave in the referendum and 40% of Tory voters voted Remain, so now if just 28% of Labour voters would vote Leave and 28% of Tory voters would vote Remain that is actually a bigger shift of Tory voters to Leave than Labour voters to Remain
@RoyalBlue " The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church " as St Cyprian rightly observed. It would have been exactly the same if a 52/48 Remain vote had been interpreted as a mandate for Schengen and Euro membership. But as it was 52/48 Leave we're stuck with the consequences of that not the hypothetical. But what's become clearer by the day is that Hard Brexiters have over played their hand. In that sense in softening it in the short term May has done Brexit a long term favour.
May is justing getting on with it meeting the Irish PM yesterday and Tusk today with more meeting with leaders later this week. I believe we are edging towards a compromise and hopefully it will suit both sides and we move on. The extreme remainers and leavers will not win as you cannot meet them in the middle
What is the middle and is it achievable?
At this stage not sure but I am convinced as the negotiations carry on a way will be arrived at, probably with more upfront cash and some joint legal body to oversee citizens rights.
I really think TM will do this but of course it could go wrong and the political blame could fall on her shoulders or the EU's
The next six months will be very important and let's see where we are by then
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
There are plenty of tribalists here on the Labour side too and to be fair to BigG he voted Labour in 1997 and 2001, so he is not as tribal as you make out. How many Labour posters on here have ever voted Tory?
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
But, to be fair, Williamglenn does the same with the EU.
Strangely my school has more of a problem with nearby homeowners blocking the gate because they think of it as a convenient place to park. Apparently we can't do anything about this as we're not in London.
Oh, and Ben Stokes seems to have played his last match for England.
I see that Survation has a poll out for Labour list with a proper Scottish sample. L,o and behold it confirms Panelbase with the SNP gaining ground at the expense of both Tory and Labour.
It shows Labour 31 seats short of an overall majority with the SNP on 41 including Salmond's seat in Gordon. An early election might well be in the SNP's interests!
Given many Nats on here were scoffing at the idea before the general election the SNP could fall as low as 45 seats a poll showing them getting 41 seats is not much for the SNP to crow about
Dyson is developing his electric car in Wiltshire and will 'hoover' up all his competitors
e-trabant, with a range of about 50 miles.
If Dyson is creating this new car, who is going to fund the many charging points and the power generation needed to keep them going? I hope it is an advance on that Enfield design.
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
Can you suggest anyone who could do it better. And no, Theresa May has no long term future, but for now she needs to get on with it
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
Can you suggest anyone who could do it better. And no, Theresa May has no long term future, but for now she needs to get on with it
David Cameron, George Osborne CH, Ken Clarke, and Ruth Davidson.
On their worst day those four have more political talent in their snot than Mrs May has in her entire body.
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
Can you suggest anyone who could do it better. And no, Theresa May has no long term future, but for now she needs to get on with it
Just did a poll by Conhome with a list of next leaders of the party.
The list was long and to be honest, at present, and looking at all on the list, Boris seemed the only one who would be up for a fight so I voted for him rather surprising myself
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
Can you suggest anyone who could do it better. And no, Theresa May has no long term future, but for now she needs to get on with it
David Cameron, George Osborne CH, Ken Clarke, and Ruth Davidson.
On their worst day those four have more political talent in their snot that Mrs May has in her entire body.
Dyson is developing his electric car in Wiltshire and will 'hoover' up all his competitors
e-trabant, with a range of about 50 miles.
If Dyson is creating this new car, who is going to fund the many charging points and the power generation needed to keep them going? I hope it is an advance on that Enfield design.
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
Can you suggest anyone who could do it better. And no, Theresa May has no long term future, but for now she needs to get on with it
David Cameron, George Osborne CH, Ken Clarke, and Ruth Davidson.
On their worst day those four have more political talent in their snot that Mrs May has in her entire body.
Well David C and George O lost, Ken Clarke is too remain but is very respected but the choice of course would be Ruth but she is not on the radar at present and is unlikely to be anytime soon
@Big_G_NorthWales If Earth was about to be destroyed by an asteroid you'd pop up on here to assure us that who ever happened to leader of the Conservative Party at the time was handling it well. Which is far enough and I've learned the hard way that folk like you have their uses in politics. But with respect it adds nothing to a reflexive discussion site past reminding us that slavish tribalists like yourself exist in good number.
Can you suggest anyone who could do it better. And no, Theresa May has no long term future, but for now she needs to get on with it
David Cameron, George Osborne CH, Ken Clarke, and Ruth Davidson.
On their worst day those four have more political talent in their snot that Mrs May has in her entire body.
The first 2 have already done it, did better than May in 2015 albeit not as well as May in 2010 and went after losing the EU referendum, the third was Chancellor before the Tories lost by a landslide, lost the leadership election 3 times and is not going to run again (in any case he would probably make a better LD leader than Vince Cable rather than trying again for the Tories), the last had done an excellent job as Scottish leader and has zero interest in being UK leader
Considering how angry and desirous for change everyone seems to be this was surprising:
' "Average ratings of life satisfaction and happiness were at their highest levels in the year ending March 2017 since we began measuring personal well-being in 2011," said the ONS. '
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing? Or Ashworth and Macdonnell put forward entirely contradictory policies 24 hours apart? Or let Emma Dent Coad, a woman who served on Kensington's housing committee and seems mysteriously reluctant to let any investigation into Grenfell go ahead, loose to demonstrate that she's actually got the intellect of a rather junior parish councillor?
Dyson is developing his electric car in Wiltshire and will 'hoover' up all his competitors
e-trabant, with a range of about 50 miles.
If Dyson is creating this new car, who is going to fund the many charging points and the power generation needed to keep them going? I hope it is an advance on that Enfield design.
Honestly, I don't know what I'd do in such a referendum. I don't think I could inflict Britain in its current enervated state on the rest of the EU. But I can't line up with the xenophobic Leavers.
I'd be changing my mind hourly.
How about lining up with the not xenophobic Leavers?
@RoyalBlue " The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church " as St Cyprian rightly observed. It would have been exactly the same if a 52/48 Remain vote had been interpreted as a mandate for Schengen and Euro membership. But as it was 52/48 Leave we're stuck with the consequences of that not the hypothetical. But what's become clearer by the day is that Hard Brexiters have over played their hand. In that sense in softening it in the short term May has done Brexit a long term favour.
May is justing getting on with it meeting the Irish PM yesterday and Tusk today with more meeting with leaders later this week. I believe we are edging towards a compromise and hopefully it will suit both sides and we move on. The extreme remainers and leavers will not win as you cannot meet them in the middle
What is the middle and is it achievable?
At this stage not sure but I am convinced as the negotiations carry on a way will be arrived at, probably with more upfront cash and some joint legal body to oversee citizens rights.
I really think TM will do this but of course it could go wrong and the political blame could fall on her shoulders or the EU's
The next six months will be very important and let's see where we are by then
I do agree that we should leave this arguament alone for six months until there is something to discuss.
Well that is meaningless as who is to determine the existing liabilities
Presumably the EU also has assets we should also get a share of.
If Hungary or Poland ever opt to leave will the EU insist those countries should be paid tens of billions of euros as an exit payment as they were net recipients?
Honestly, I don't know what I'd do in such a referendum. I don't think I could inflict Britain in its current enervated state on the rest of the EU. But I can't line up with the xenophobic Leavers.
I'd be changing my mind hourly.
How about lining up with the not xenophobic Leavers?
Apparently even they are somehow xenophobes or something. Basically, there is no such thing as a good leaver.
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing? Or Ashworth and Macdonnell put forward entirely contradictory policies 24 hours apart? Or let Emma Dent Coad, a woman who served on Kensington's housing committee and seems mysteriously reluctant to let any investigation into Grenfell go ahead, loose to demonstrate that she's actually got the intellect of a rather junior parish councillor?
CCHQ has probably learnt from last time and is storing up a raft of future negative ads on Corbyn Labour from comments this week
Dyson is developing his electric car in Wiltshire and will 'hoover' up all his competitors
e-trabant, with a range of about 50 miles.
If Dyson is creating this new car, who is going to fund the many charging points and the power generation needed to keep them going? I hope it is an advance on that Enfield design.
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing?
I cannot recall ever seeing portraits of Harold Wilson or Clement Attlee being carried around of a conference hall with such enthusiasm and chanting.
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing?
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing? Or Ashworth and Macdonnell put forward entirely contradictory policies 24 hours apart? Or let Emma Dent Coad, a woman who served on Kensington's housing committee and seems mysteriously reluctant to let any investigation into Grenfell go ahead, loose to demonstrate that she's actually got the intellect of a rather junior parish councillor?
CCHQ has probably learnt from last time and is storing up a raft of future negative ads on Corbyn Labour from comments this week
Video of McDonnell openly admitting labour policies may cause the currency to tank and with it capital flight is a gift - it was just astonishing
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing? Or Ashworth and Macdonnell put forward entirely contradictory policies 24 hours apart? Or let Emma Dent Coad, a woman who served on Kensington's housing committee and seems mysteriously reluctant to let any investigation into Grenfell go ahead, loose to demonstrate that she's actually got the intellect of a rather junior parish councillor?
CCHQ has probably learnt from last time and is storing up a raft of future negative ads on Corbyn Labour from comments this week
I am quite heartened by Lab conference. The "bring on the sterling crisis if you think you're 'ard enough" stuff is honest, but surely so demented that the electorate will not go for it if offered anything better than TMay.
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing? Or Ashworth and Macdonnell put forward entirely contradictory policies 24 hours apart? Or let Emma Dent Coad, a woman who served on Kensington's housing committee and seems mysteriously reluctant to let any investigation into Grenfell go ahead, loose to demonstrate that she's actually got the intellect of a rather junior parish councillor?
CCHQ has probably learnt from last time and is storing up a raft of future negative ads on Corbyn Labour from comments this week
And to state the obvious it's impossible to rerun the referendum. Any further referendum would be in the light of two years of additional information and a much clearer idea what Brexit means in practice. It would also have the psychological hurdle of the nation changing it's mind/giving in*
For instance who would be the Status Quo option n a second referendum ? We are still in. We haven't left. Yet unless we proactively voted Remain we would leave and the government is pro Leave. Which side would be the " protest " vote ?
We have served article 50 - we cannot just stay in as that requires the consent of all 27 other states. What price might they seek to extract for our humiliating change of heart?
It comes back to the point - what is the question in this supposed second referendum?
Accept the deal or leave with no deal is surely the only question which would work - to force voters to deliver the 'right' answer as most remainers and some leavers would surely back the deal.
Honestly, I don't know what I'd do in such a referendum. I don't think I could inflict Britain in its current enervated state on the rest of the EU. But I can't line up with the xenophobic Leavers.
I'd be changing my mind hourly.
How about lining up with the not xenophobic Leavers?
He doesn't believe there are any. If we can still support leave, even though the farage poster, we must all be racists.
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing? Or Ashworth and Macdonnell put forward entirely contradictory policies 24 hours apart? Or let Emma Dent Coad, a woman who served on Kensington's housing committee and seems mysteriously reluctant to let any investigation into Grenfell go ahead, loose to demonstrate that she's actually got the intellect of a rather junior parish councillor?
CCHQ has probably learnt from last time and is storing up a raft of future negative ads on Corbyn Labour from comments this week
I am quite heartened by Lab conference. The "bring on the sterling crisis if you think you're 'ard enough" stuff is honest, but surely so demented that the electorate will not go for it if offered anything better than TMay.
It will be interesting to see the polling after the Tory conference, I certainly don't think Labour will get much bounce from this week, once the Tories have had theirs May could even have a small lead
It's not often I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail. However, is anyone, even a really tribal Labour loyalist, willing to defend Labour at this moment? Even leaving aside the calls for mass murder and the removal of certain racial groups, the whole approach to policy has been a shambles - did Corbyn really mean to tell everyone that his government would inevitably cause economic chaos and that this was a good thing? Or Ashworth and Macdonnell put forward entirely contradictory policies 24 hours apart? Or let Emma Dent Coad, a woman who served on Kensington's housing committee and seems mysteriously reluctant to let any investigation into Grenfell go ahead, loose to demonstrate that she's actually got the intellect of a rather junior parish councillor?
CCHQ has probably learnt from last time and is storing up a raft of future negative ads on Corbyn Labour from comments this week
Yes, because that really worked last time.
No good if the Tories don't have a positive vision for us.
Dyson is developing his electric car in Wiltshire and will 'hoover' up all his competitors
e-trabant, with a range of about 50 miles.
If Dyson is creating this new car, who is going to fund the many charging points and the power generation needed to keep them going? I hope it is an advance on that Enfield design.
Dyson is developing it as are all the car manufacturers - the power points is a matter for governments around the world
One positive about the (slowish) shift to electric vehicles is that 'pollution' won't be a factor against development of road networks.
Scotland has announced the A9 - Perth to Inverness will be their first fully electric road
That's probably quite clever, because there was a socking great cable thingy installed to pipe the power down from Dounreay, which now has all the windfarms plugged into it, and which I imagine is usefully accessible from the A9.
Comments
You insist you labelling anyone who engages with you on the EU from the Leave side as a "typical Leaver" (or worse) because this allows you to be ruder to them, and denigrate them.
Your comments have shown you up to be ignorant, arrogant and ill-informed, and you refuse to admit it.
You should be apologising to me.
A similar point was made in this podcast ^
Noted.
March of the Brexiters
No, me neither.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/james-dyson-electric-car-2020
The notion that a product has to be produced locally is not accepted in other mainstream products so why for cars?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/video/news/jeremy-corbyn-snaps-after-hes-compared-to-donald-trump-on-venezuela/
http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/brexiteer-dyson-warns-government-not-cut-farm-subsidies.htm
It may well be unresolvable as LINO satisfies neither side. I accept the result but am pissed off with my country as a result.
Then they post a Video where he doesnt
It woz The Sun wot lost it (Tory Maj.)
Straight answer IMO
For instance who would be the Status Quo option n a second referendum ? We are still in. We haven't left. Yet unless we proactively voted Remain we would leave and the government is pro Leave. Which side would be the " protest " vote ?
For this reason, I think EEA membership best represents the settled will of the British people. It is certainly not my first preference, but it is the only option that can command the support of 60%+. Personally speaking, I would much rather that Europe was settled as an issue in British politics, and that this awful division start to subside, than get my ideal model of UK-Europe relations.
If only we could have a quick referendum on EEA vs Hard Brexit.
However, the headline clearly states "Corbyn snaps".
He doesn't.
Which is why many dismiss anything in The Sun as "fake news."
The niceties of what he did or did not say will not register.
And they (the newspapers in general) wonder why their influence is declining.
If Dyson is creating this new car, who is going to fund the many charging points and the power generation needed to keep them going? I hope it is an advance on that Enfield design.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enfield_8000
I really think TM will do this but of course it could go wrong and the political blame could fall on her shoulders or the EU's
The next six months will be very important and let's see where we are by then
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41399134
Strangely my school has more of a problem with nearby homeowners blocking the gate because they think of it as a convenient place to park. Apparently we can't do anything about this as we're not in London.
Oh, and Ben Stokes seems to have played his last match for England.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mp-mocks-prince-harrys-11240409.amp
On their worst day those four have more political talent in their snot than Mrs May has in her entire body.
The list was long and to be honest, at present, and looking at all on the list, Boris seemed the only one who would be up for a fight so I voted for him rather surprising myself
Winner takes all in the next one.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-41398199
#Terminator_reference
https://twitter.com/Romakka/status/912663620189859841
' "Average ratings of life satisfaction and happiness were at their highest levels in the year ending March 2017 since we began measuring personal well-being in 2011," said the ONS. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41397407
If Hungary or Poland ever opt to leave will the EU insist those countries should be paid tens of billions of euros as an exit payment as they were net recipients?
Other politicians would lie.
Jeremy tells it like it is.
It comes back to the point - what is the question in this supposed second referendum?
Accept the deal or leave with no deal is surely the only question which would work - to force voters to deliver the 'right' answer as most remainers and some leavers would surely back the deal.
It isn't Brexit or remain surely?
No good if the Tories don't have a positive vision for us.