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Guardian

Read the full story here

CarlottaVance

First! Like Leave & May.....

Roger

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

Casino_Royale

How low can she go?

Casino_Royale

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41394267

Just lost the punters vote..

ydoethur

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

TheScreamingEagles

No wonder Phil Hammond said publicly he doesn't want her leading the Tories, after a fashion.

SouthamObserver

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

AlastairMeeks

EDITED OUT BRAINDEAD COMMENT

ydoethur

TheScreamingEagles said:

No wonder Phil Hammond said publicly he doesn't want her leading the Tories, after a fashion.

Was that 'said it after a fashion', 'publicly after a fashion' or 'leading after a fashion'?

Her leadership is certainly not fashionable...

ydoethur

AlastairMeeks said:

EDITED OUT BRAINDEAD COMMENT

That would be unusual for you. What did you say? Something about the brilliance, vision, tolerance and humanity of the Labour Party under a Corbyn?

TheScreamingEagles

ydoethur said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

No wonder Phil Hammond said publicly he doesn't want her leading the Tories, after a fashion.

Was that 'said it after a fashion', 'publicly after a fashion' or 'leading after a fashion'?

Her leadership is certainly not fashionable...

Philip Hammond, the UK chancellor, has raised further doubts about Theresa May’s future by failing to support her plans to fight the next election as Conservative leader, describing her prospects post-Brexit as “not an issue for today”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/25/hammond-raises-further-doubts-about-mays-future-as-tory-leader

ydoethur

TheScreamingEagles said:

ydoethur said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

No wonder Phil Hammond said publicly he doesn't want her leading the Tories, after a fashion.

Was that 'said it after a fashion', 'publicly after a fashion' or 'leading after a fashion'?

Her leadership is certainly not fashionable...

Philip Hammond, the UK chancellor, has raised further doubts about Theresa May’s future by failing to support her plans to fight the next election as Conservative leader, describing her prospects post-Brexit as “not an issue for today”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/25/hammond-raises-further-doubts-about-mays-future-as-tory-leader

So 'said it after a fashion' then?

foxinsoxuk

AlastairMeeks said:

EDITED OUT BRAINDEAD COMMENT

Now don't go setting precedents...

rkrkrk

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

ydoethur

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

SouthamObserver

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

AlastairMeeks

Theresa May was initially wildly overpraised and now is being overdamned. She has some virtues. She has a good analytical brain for a start. She would, however, do well to widen her circle of advisers to include people who will tell her unwelcome truths as well as those who defend her from harsh criticism.

kle4

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

I get the impression your underwhelmed by the current offering.

Recidivist

I was expecting a sort of convergence on reality. Corbyn couldn't ever be as bad as his critics made him out to be and May got the top job by a fluke. We've got a couple of leaders who were never really cut out for the roles that history served up to them. They are both a bit out of their depth, but they are also both learning on the job and growing into their roles. Of the two I'd say that Corbyn was doing better but it is a pretty even match.

SouthamObserver

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

The difference is that in the grand scheme of things none of those situations, though grave and all-consuming at the time, was as consequential as Brexit. What happens over the next two or three years will set the UK's course for decades to follow.

rottenborough

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

What worries me a lot is Corbyn's cult-like aspects. This is in danger of turning into something very dangerous and intolerant (not been unknown with the far left in history).

I need convincing that these people (Corbyn, McD, Abbott, Milne, Lansmans etc) actually truly believe in parliamentary democracy if it fails to deliver what they want.

kle4

Recidivist said:

I was expecting a sort of convergence on reality. Corbyn couldn't ever be as bad as his critics made him out to be and May got the top job by a fluke. We've got a couple of leaders who were never really cut out for the roles that history served up to them. They are both a bit out of their depth, but they are also both learning on the job and growing into their roles. Of the two I'd say that Corbyn was doing better but it is a pretty even match.

Well as tough a job as it is, it is still an easier job to grow into than the job of pm.

SouthamObserver

rottenborough said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

What worries me a lot is Corbyn's cult-like aspects. This is in danger of turning into something very dangerous and intolerant (not been unknown with the far left in history).

I need convincing that these people (Corbyn, McD, Abbott, Milne, Lansmans etc) actually truly believe in parliamentary democracy if it fails to deliver what they want.

The good news is that the Brexit bill establishes new and exciting ways for them to by-pass Parliamentary scrutiny.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Key to this is how much it's anti-May and how much it's pro-Corbyn.

F1: still entirely possible there'll be lots of rain on both Saturday and Sunday.

View_From_Cumbria

AlastairMeeks said:

Theresa May was initially wildly overpraised and now is being overdamned. She has some virtues. She has a good analytical brain for a start. She would, however, do well to widen her circle of advisers to include people who will tell her unwelcome truths as well as those who defend her from harsh criticism.

One of us mustn't be feeling very well as I agree with every word !

MarqueeMark

AlastairMeeks said:

Theresa May was initially wildly overpraised and now is being overdamned. She has some virtues. She has a good analytical brain for a start. She would, however, do well to widen her circle of advisers to include people who will tell her unwelcome truths as well as those who defend her from harsh criticism.

A good point. And Corbyn was initially overdamned and is now being overpraised....

Roger

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Recidivist

rottenborough said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

What worries me a lot is Corbyn's cult-like aspects. This is in danger of turning into something very dangerous and intolerant (not been unknown with the far left in history).

I need convincing that these people (Corbyn, McD, Abbott, Milne, Lansmans etc) actually truly believe in parliamentary democracy if it fails to deliver what they want.

I think that is a pretty unfounded fear. I'm worried by the lack of experience in government and even in management of the people at the top of the Labour Party. But organising an enthusiastic party conference ought to be their key skill. It obviously is. Big meetings engaging lots of ordinary people is the very life blood of democracy and Labour is very good at it. It's the Tories' reliance on sound bites, managing the news and big cheques from wealthy donors that is the threat to democracy. I'd suggest they dig out John Major's old soap box and try some real campaigning. It might do them and the rest of us a lot of good.

ydoethur

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

The difference is that in the grand scheme of things none of those situations, though grave and all-consuming at the time, was as consequential as Brexit. What happens over the next two or three years will set the UK's course for decades to follow.

As did the IMF rescue of 1976. As did Maastricht/Black Wednesday.

I think the comparisons are valid and in many crucial respects those governments were weaker than this one. For a start, they all faced imminent elections against united and potent opposition.

It is possible maybe even probable of course that May will surpass them but we're not there yet.

I have to go. Have a good morning.

SouthamObserver

kle4 said:

Recidivist said:

I was expecting a sort of convergence on reality. Corbyn couldn't ever be as bad as his critics made him out to be and May got the top job by a fluke. We've got a couple of leaders who were never really cut out for the roles that history served up to them. They are both a bit out of their depth, but they are also both learning on the job and growing into their roles. Of the two I'd say that Corbyn was doing better but it is a pretty even match.

Well as tough a job as it is, it is still an easier job to grow into than the job of pm.

Corbyn does politics better than May, but who doesn't? What he is also presiding over, though, is an increasingly intolerant Labour party with a set of policies that will be immensely damaging. Labour nevertalks about how to create the wealth it eants to redistribute. And that's because it does not understand that wealth does not just happen - it has to be built and increased on a constant basis.

Scott_P

rottenborough said:

What worries me a lot is Corbyn's cult-like aspects. This is in danger of turning into something very dangerous and intolerant (not been unknown with the far left in history).

I need convincing that these people (Corbyn, McD, Abbott, Milne, Lansmans etc) actually truly believe in parliamentary democracy if it fails to deliver what they want.

SouthamObserver said:

The good news is that the Brexit bill establishes new and exciting ways for them to by-pass Parliamentary scrutiny.

And they are practising at conference...

Yorkcity

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

+1 The conservatives own the mess , they even made the possibility of a Corbyn government.Due to Mays own vanity regarding the non requirement of a snap election.It is about time the top of the conservative government thought less about their own personal position and more about the needs of the country and its people.

Nigelb

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

What was so bad about the Major government ? Utterly lacklustre, and without any sense of real direction, but left the country in a pretty decent shape.
IDS was hopeless, but unlike Corbyn never had any prospect of actually being prime minister.
Callaghan - no argument from me.

As for May, she put herself forward to take charge of the 'tough situation', but appears to have little or no idea how to deal with it. And not much time left before the deadline.

SouthamObserver

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

The difference is that in the grand scheme of things none of those situations, though grave and all-consuming at the time, was as consequential as Brexit. What happens over the next two or three years will set the UK's course for decades to follow.

As did the IMF rescue of 1976. As did Maastricht/Black Wednesday.

I think the comparisons are valid and in many crucial respects those governments were weaker than May's. For a start, they all faced imminent elections against united and potent opposition.

It is possible maybe even probable of course that May will surpass them but we're not there yet.

I have to go. Have a good morning.

No, the IMF bailout was the end of something; as was Black Wrdnesday. We're at the start of something with Brexit.

ydoethur

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

We're all agreeing with each other! It's unnerving! What's happening to good old PB? I'm off before the shark appears and I have to jump it...

Hwyl a pob bendith i gyd.

Dura_Ace

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

As Uncle Monty says in Withnail and I, "the country is shit on by the tories and shovelled up by Labour."

View_From_Cumbria

The German elections surely add another straw to the camel's back against polling methods. It is hardly a surprise that people aren't entirely honest with pollsters - some can't be honest with their partners - or even sometimes themselves.

That political opinion polls sometimes get it wrong - or sometimes only get it right because of the laws of probability - is hardly serious. BUT if the methodology or underlying logic is wrong for that then what of the logic and methodology behind the whole of the advertising industry ?

Even internet predictive advertising is crap - every space here and on Guido is either trying to persuade me to sign up as a pupil at Sedbergh School - I am 57 - or else book a hotel in Besancon. Now, It thinks I need the latter because I booked one yesterday. Like I'm going to need another hotel room AFTER I've booked ???

DecrepitJohnL

Casino_Royale said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41394267

Just lost the punters vote..

Punters hate FOBTs, which are what have caused the upsurge in problem gambling, and which mean betting shops no longer need to take bets from anyone who looks like they might have a clue. Ironically, by sucking money out of the economy in poor areas, FOBTs probably help Labour.

Roger

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

EDITED OUT BRAINDEAD COMMENT

Now don't go setting precedents...

LOL! Talking of 'braindead' was I hallucinating or did I see Diane Abbott chant "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" while standing next to him?

rottenborough

SouthamObserver said:

kle4 said:

Recidivist said:

I was expecting a sort of convergence on reality. Corbyn couldn't ever be as bad as his critics made him out to be and May got the top job by a fluke. We've got a couple of leaders who were never really cut out for the roles that history served up to them. They are both a bit out of their depth, but they are also both learning on the job and growing into their roles. Of the two I'd say that Corbyn was doing better but it is a pretty even match.

Well as tough a job as it is, it is still an easier job to grow into than the job of pm.

Corbyn does politics better than May, but who doesn't? What he is also presiding over, though, is an increasingly intolerant Labour party with a set of policies that will be immensely damaging. Labour nevertalks about how to create the wealth it eants to redistribute. And that's because it does not understand that wealth does not just happen - it has to be built and increased on a constant basis.

Not entirely true. There has been some good stuff about investing in R&D (to 3% GDP), productivity, regions e.g. a national investment bank like Nordic countries.

not_on_fire

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

What was so bad about the Major government ? Utterly lacklustre, and without any sense of real direction, but left the country in a pretty decent shape.

Seriously? Black Wednesday,Major at war with “The Bastards” in his cabinet, sleaze, cash for questions, chaos over Maarstricht, half the parliamentary Tory party caught with their pants down in various “exotic” sexual escapades. Easily the worst government in my lifetime.

Charles

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

You do realise that the "citizens of nowhere" comment meant nothing like it has been portrayed

It was about those who refuse to acknowledge their obligations to their local community/country by claiming "they are citizens of the world"

It was aimed firmly at the tax dodging global super rich who pollute London

not_on_fire

Charles said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

You do realise that the "citizens of nowhere" comment meant nothing like it has been portrayed

It was about those who refuse to acknowledge their obligations to their local community/country by claiming "they are citizens of the world"

It was aimed firmly at the tax dodging global super rich who pollute London

Tough - she should have seen how it would have been presented. It’s like Mandelson’s comment about the filthy rich.

Casino_Royale

Dura_Ace said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

As Uncle Monty says in Withnail and I, "the country is shit on by the tories and shovelled up by Labour."

Other way round.

Casino_Royale

DecrepitJohnL said:

Casino_Royale said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41394267

Just lost the punters vote..

Punters hate FOBTs, which are what have caused the upsurge in problem gambling, and which mean betting shops no longer need to take bets from anyone who looks like they might have a clue. Ironically, by sucking money out of the economy in poor areas, FOBTs probably help Labour.

This will end up being a tax on betting profits.

DecrepitJohnL

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

What was so bad about the Major government ? Utterly lacklustre, and without any sense of real direction, but left the country in a pretty decent shape.
IDS was hopeless, but unlike Corbyn never had any prospect of actually being prime minister.
Callaghan - no argument from me.

As for May, she put herself forward to take charge of the 'tough situation', but appears to have little or no idea how to deal with it. And not much time left before the deadline.

The Major government, with its ERM membership, led to many people losing their homes and many more facing hardship from a combination of high mortgage interest rates and negative equity. What you call leaving the economy in reasonably good shape followed from the complete collapse of the government's economic policy on Black Wednesday. Maastricht is left as an exercise for the reader.

View_From_Cumbria

not_on_fire said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

What was so bad about the Major government ? Utterly lacklustre, and without any sense of real direction, but left the country in a pretty decent shape.

Seriously? Black Wednesday,Major at war with “The Bastards” in his cabinet, sleaze, cash for questions, chaos over Maarstricht, half the parliamentary Tory party caught with their pants down in various “exotic” sexual escapades. Easily the worst government in my lifetime.

There was an assumption within Tory circles that whatever was done no election could be lost - when the reality dawned belatedly no election could be won. But, it wasn't on the whole bad government. The press used the shagging incidents mercilessly and then when we went "Back to Basics" the whole thing was hopeless. I really don't care about who is knocking off who and think Mary Archer got it right when she castigated John Major only for his lack of taste.

A lot of figures mainly Labour have been strong enough in their seats to be able to say "so what ?" That must be good. But as long as we allow what interests the public to be passed off as public interest then we will go on in this direction. Tim Farron's experience is unusual but his supporters haven't always been above casting the first stone.

rkrkrk

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

On TM - she delayed triggering A50 as long as was feasible given her backbenchers. She did have a plan I think - but it was predicated on winning big in the GE.

Appointing Davis, Fox and Johnson was a smart move - as it has allowed them all to see the difficulties of negotiating Brexit firsthand. Fox and Davis have moved significantly on what they used to say as a result and now appear to be backing a further 2 year delay. Both would have been very difficult had they not been placed in Cabinet.

Boris I suspect continues to lie about how easy he thinks it will be for partisan ends.

On Corbyn - I think you're completely wrong, perhaps we could fashion a bet of some sort that comes into effect if Corbyn ever becomes PM?

MarqueeMark

DecrepitJohnL said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

What was so bad about the Major government ? Utterly lacklustre, and without any sense of real direction, but left the country in a pretty decent shape.
IDS was hopeless, but unlike Corbyn never had any prospect of actually being prime minister.
Callaghan - no argument from me.

As for May, she put herself forward to take charge of the 'tough situation', but appears to have little or no idea how to deal with it. And not much time left before the deadline.

The Major government, with its ERM membership, led to many people losing their homes and many more facing hardship from a combination of high mortgage interest rates and negative equity. What you call leaving the economy in reasonably good shape followed from the complete collapse of the government's economic policy on Black Wednesday. Maastricht is left as an exercise for the reader.

Remind the class - what was Labour's position on ERM membership?

And Grdon Brown's reaction on being handed a robust economy in 1997?

foxinsoxuk

Dura_Ace said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

As Uncle Monty says in Withnail and I, "the country is shit on by the tories and shovelled up by Labour."

More accurately public services are shat on by the Tories, the economy by Labour*.

The voters merely decide which is in most need of repair.

*With Brexit the Tories have lost on the economy too.

not_on_fire

View_From_Cumbria said:

not_on_fire said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

What was so bad about the Major government ? Utterly lacklustre, and without any sense of real direction, but left the country in a pretty decent shape.

Seriously? Black Wednesday,Major at war with “The Bastards” in his cabinet, sleaze, cash for questions, chaos over Maarstricht, half the parliamentary Tory party caught with their pants down in various “exotic” sexual escapades. Easily the worst government in my lifetime.

There was an assumption within Tory circles that whatever was done no election could be lost - when the reality dawned belatedly no election could be won. But, it wasn't on the whole bad government. The press used the shagging incidents mercilessly and then when we went "Back to Basics" the whole thing was hopeless. I really don't care about who is knocking off who and think Mary Archer got it right when she castigated John Major only for his lack of taste.

A lot of figures mainly Labour have been strong enough in their seats to be able to say "so what ?" That must be good. But as long as we allow what interests the public to be passed off as public interest then we will go on in this direction. Tim Farron's experience is unusual but his supporters haven't always been above casting the first stone.

It’s true that we lived in more prudish times back then - even being in a homesexual relationship was still viewed as a bit risqué back then. However the sex scandals added to a narrative of a party unfit to govern.

Sean_F

There aren't many great, or even good, political leaders across the Western world. Mediocre is the best we can hope for, right now.

Jonathan

Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.

Charles

not_on_fire said:

Charles said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

You do realise that the "citizens of nowhere" comment meant nothing like it has been portrayed

It was about those who refuse to acknowledge their obligations to their local community/country by claiming "they are citizens of the world"

It was aimed firmly at the tax dodging global super rich who pollute London

Tough - she should have seen how it would have been presented. It’s like Mandelson’s comment about the filthy rich.

So lying is okay and it's May's fault for not anticipating it?

Well, it's a point of view I suppose

MarqueeMark

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

On TM - she delayed triggering A50 as long as was feasible given her backbenchers. She did have a plan I think - but it was predicated on winning big in the GE.

Appointing Davis, Fox and Johnson was a smart move - as it has allowed them all to see the difficulties of negotiating Brexit firsthand. Fox and Davis have moved significantly on what they used to say as a result and now appear to be backing a further 2 year delay. Both would have been very difficult had they not been placed in Cabinet.

Boris I suspect continues to lie about how easy he thinks it will be for partisan ends.

On Corbyn - I think you're completely wrong, perhaps we could fashion a bet of some sort that comes into effect if Corbyn ever becomes PM?

You may need to consider the currency for settlement of that bet if Corbyn ever become PM. It is likely to be strings of seashells, worn around the neck.... The exchange rate will be £4 million to the seashell.....

YBarddCwsc

Sean_F said:

There aren't many great, or even good, political leaders across the Western world. Mediocre is the best we can hope for, right now.

I am not sure May & Corbyn are very different from Heath & Wilson in terms of political skills. They're all very average.

The problems facing the UK today seem significantly harder for politicians to fix & remain electable.

Or, more accurately, there is no easy way of squaring the expectations of voters with what politicians can actually control & deliver in this global world.

HYUFD

Given the previous poll was taken before the general election hardly surprising there has been a shift.

The biggest ones are on pensioners, which the Tories having scrapped the ending of the triple lock and winter fuel allowance have begun to redress and on students where Hammond is set to raise the threshold for fees and likely cut fees for courses with a lower earnings premium and maybe the interest rate too

Sean_F

Jonathan said:

Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.

Contrary to OGH, I think the economy rating is fairly encouraging for the Tories.

With ICM, the Tories have gone from 14-16% ahead at the time of the manifesto launch, to 0-2% behind today, so that's reflected in the ratings on issues.

HYUFD

Sean_F said:

There aren't many great, or even good, political leaders across the Western world. Mediocre is the best we can hope for, right now.

Justin Trudeau is probably the most popular western leader now, though I don't think he can exactly be called great

HYUFD

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

Jonathan

Sean_F said:

Jonathan said:

Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.

Contrary to OGH, I think the economy rating is fairly encouraging for the Tories.

With ICM, the Tories have gone from 14-16% ahead at the time of the manifesto launch, to 0-2% behind today, so that's reflected in the ratings on issues.

The Tories have failed on every objective measure they set themselves.

foxinsoxuk

HYUFD said:

Given the previous poll was taken before the general election hardly surprising there has been a shift.

The biggest ones are on pensioners, which the Tories having scrapped the ending of the triple lock and winter fuel allowance have begun to redress and on students where Hammond is set to raise the threshold for fees and likely cut fees for courses with a lower earnings premium and maybe the interest rate too

I cannot recall such a time when the "winning" party ripped up its manifesto so completely. It is now implementing a very different set of policies. Right or wrong, this is not going to restore faith in the honesty of politicians. It also makes Corbyn look an authentic and sage leader.

HYUFD

ydoethur said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.

There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.

The Heath and Brown governments could also be added. Macmillan's government was actually pretty successful bar Profumo

Morris_Dancer

Chakrabarti setting fire to the tattered remnants of her credibility:
https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/912412501677092864

Sean_F

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

HYUFD

foxinsoxuk said:

HYUFD said:

Given the previous poll was taken before the general election hardly surprising there has been a shift.

The biggest ones are on pensioners, which the Tories having scrapped the ending of the triple lock and winter fuel allowance have begun to redress and on students where Hammond is set to raise the threshold for fees and likely cut fees for courses with a lower earnings premium and maybe the interest rate too

I cannot recall such a time when the "winning" party ripped up its manifesto so completely. It is now implementing a very different set of policies. Right or wrong, this is not going to restore faith in the honesty of politicians. It also makes Corbyn look an authentic and sage leader.

Who cares about honesty? Corbyn doesn't, Tories need to care about winning

HYUFD

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

Without Brexit the majority of the UKIP vote would not have gone Tory too

not_on_fire

Charles said:

not_on_fire said:

Charles said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

You do realise that the "citizens of nowhere" comment meant nothing like it has been portrayed

It was about those who refuse to acknowledge their obligations to their local community/country by claiming "they are citizens of the world"

It was aimed firmly at the tax dodging global super rich who pollute London

Tough - she should have seen how it would have been presented. It’s like Mandelson’s comment about the filthy rich.

So lying is okay and it's May's fault for not anticipating it?

Well, it's a point of view I suppose

Politicians are always quoting each other out of context and mis-representing their opponents’ views.

Any competent strategist would have spotted how the CoN line would have been presented.

Jonathan

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

So many own goals. Like not showing up to a debate or Fox Hunting.

Sean_F

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Jonathan said:

Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.

Contrary to OGH, I think the economy rating is fairly encouraging for the Tories.

With ICM, the Tories have gone from 14-16% ahead at the time of the manifesto launch, to 0-2% behind today, so that's reflected in the ratings on issues.

The Tories have failed on every objective measure they set themselves.

I don't agree. We're in a better place than in May 2010.

logical_song

Sean_F said:

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Jonathan said:

Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.

Contrary to OGH, I think the economy rating is fairly encouraging for the Tories.

With ICM, the Tories have gone from 14-16% ahead at the time of the manifesto launch, to 0-2% behind today, so that's reflected in the ratings on issues.

The Tories have failed on every objective measure they set themselves.

I don't agree. We're in a better place than in May 2010.

... but not 2015.

Roger

OT. Just been listening to a rado discussion on parents getting violent watching their kids at school football matches. It reminded me of a story Romesh Ranganathan told of when he was a maths teacher. One of his pupils was disruptive so the headmaster called the parents in. When they were told of their child's behaviour the father said;

'Why don't you batter him?'.

'We're not allowed to do that' said the headmster

'What if I write a note giving you permission?'

glw

Sean_F said:

There aren't many great, or even good, political leaders across the Western world. Mediocre is the best we can hope for, right now.

I've long believed that the problem is that an honest politician will never prosper. We (and I mean all parties) hate being told that we can not have our cake and eat it. So we end up with politicians trying to appeal to all sides, holding contradictory views, and sitting on the fence, and when they aren't doing that they are usually telling fibs.

HYUFD

Labour would impose a new levy on bookmakers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41394267

Jonathan

Sean_F said:

Jonathan said:

Sean_F said:

Jonathan said:

Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.

Contrary to OGH, I think the economy rating is fairly encouraging for the Tories.

With ICM, the Tories have gone from 14-16% ahead at the time of the manifesto launch, to 0-2% behind today, so that's reflected in the ratings on issues.

The Tories have failed on every objective measure they set themselves.

I don't agree. We're in a better place than in May 2010.

My cat went to a better place. Turned out he was buried in the garden. I see what you mean.

rkrkrk

MarqueeMark said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

On TM - she delayed triggering A50 as long as was feasible given her backbenchers. She did have a plan I think - but it was predicated on winning big in the GE.

Appointing Davis, Fox and Johnson was a smart move - as it has allowed them all to see the difficulties of negotiating Brexit firsthand. Fox and Davis have moved significantly on what they used to say as a result and now appear to be backing a further 2 year delay. Both would have been very difficult had they not been placed in Cabinet.

Boris I suspect continues to lie about how easy he thinks it will be for partisan ends.

On Corbyn - I think you're completely wrong, perhaps we could fashion a bet of some sort that comes into effect if Corbyn ever becomes PM?

You may need to consider the currency for settlement of that bet if Corbyn ever become PM. It is likely to be strings of seashells, worn around the neck.... The exchange rate will be £4 million to the seashell.....

This is the kind of exaggerated thinking I hope to profit off/use to raise money for charity.
Happy to bet in US dollars. Or perhaps you trust gold?

another_richard

Charles said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

You do realise that the "citizens of nowhere" comment meant nothing like it has been portrayed

It was about those who refuse to acknowledge their obligations to their local community/country by claiming "they are citizens of the world"

It was aimed firmly at the tax dodging global super rich who pollute London

London's a 'world city' and tax dodging global super rich are one of its attributes.

But it applies also to the Gus O'Donnell types.

Its ironic that if they'd been rather less keen to 'maximise global welfare not national welfare' Britain wouldn't have voted Leave.

Roger

Morris_Dancer said:

Chakrabarti setting fire to the tattered remnants of her credibility:
https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/912412501677092864

Remember this is the lady who stood shoulder to shoulder with David Davis when he called his pointless byelection. Her judgement was in tatters long before she joined the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' Zombie club

logical_song

View_From_Cumbria said:

The German elections surely add another straw to the camel's back against polling methods. It is hardly a surprise that people aren't entirely honest with pollsters - some can't be honest with their partners - or even sometimes themselves.

That political opinion polls sometimes get it wrong - or sometimes only get it right because of the laws of probability - is hardly serious. BUT if the methodology or underlying logic is wrong for that then what of the logic and methodology behind the whole of the advertising industry ?

Even internet predictive advertising is crap - every space here and on Guido is either trying to persuade me to sign up as a pupil at Sedbergh School - I am 57 - or else book a hotel in Besancon. Now, It thinks I need the latter because I booked one yesterday. Like I'm going to need another hotel room AFTER I've booked ???

"The German elections surely add another straw to the camel's back against polling methods."

INSA Poll 21-22 Sep

CDU 34% (actual 33%)
SPD 21% (actual 20.5%)
AfD 13% (actual 12.6%)
FDP 9% (actual 10.7%)
Linke 11% (actual 9.2%)
Grune 8% (actual 8.9%)

Pretty bloody good!

not_on_fire

logical_song said:

View_From_Cumbria said:

The German elections surely add another straw to the camel's back against polling methods. It is hardly a surprise that people aren't entirely honest with pollsters - some can't be honest with their partners - or even sometimes themselves.

That political opinion polls sometimes get it wrong - or sometimes only get it right because of the laws of probability - is hardly serious. BUT if the methodology or underlying logic is wrong for that then what of the logic and methodology behind the whole of the advertising industry ?

Even internet predictive advertising is crap - every space here and on Guido is either trying to persuade me to sign up as a pupil at Sedbergh School - I am 57 - or else book a hotel in Besancon. Now, It thinks I need the latter because I booked one yesterday. Like I'm going to need another hotel room AFTER I've booked ???

"The German elections surely add another straw to the camel's back against polling methods."

INSA Poll 21-22 Sep

CDU 34% (actual 33%)
SPD 21% (actual 20.5%)
AfD 13% (actual 12.6%)
FDP 9% (actual 10.7%)
Linke 11% (actual 9.2%)
Grune 8% (actual 8.9%)

Pretty bloody good!

Not a single KABOOM in sight

kyf_100

rkrkrk said:

MarqueeMark said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.

IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.

I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.

She triggered Article 50 before having an EU exit strategy and a settled final destination; she labelled those who disagreed with her as citizens of nowhere; stood by as her media cheerleaders labelled judges with the temerity to enforce the law enemies of the people; and then accused the EU of trying to fix the outcome of the totally unnecessary general election she called. What's more she made Boris Johnson foreign secretary and is now too weak to fire him. Her incompetence, embrace of the Tory right and manifest inability to lead has set the UK on a path to a cliff-edge Brexit that will cause seious, sustained damage to our economy and international standing.

And don't start me on the ludicrous Jeremy Corbyn, whose intolerant Labour party will bankrupt Britain and drive away the wealth creators this country so drsperately needs.

What a mess.

On TM - she delayed triggering A50 as long as was feasible given her backbenchers. She did have a plan I think - but it was predicated on winning big in the GE.

Appointing Davis, Fox and Johnson was a smart move - as it has allowed them all to see the difficulties of negotiating Brexit firsthand. Fox and Davis have moved significantly on what they used to say as a result and now appear to be backing a further 2 year delay. Both would have been very difficult had they not been placed in Cabinet.

Boris I suspect continues to lie about how easy he thinks it will be for partisan ends.

On Corbyn - I think you're completely wrong, perhaps we could fashion a bet of some sort that comes into effect if Corbyn ever becomes PM?

You may need to consider the currency for settlement of that bet if Corbyn ever become PM. It is likely to be strings of seashells, worn around the neck.... The exchange rate will be £4 million to the seashell.....

This is the kind of exaggerated thinking I hope to profit off/use to raise money for charity.
Happy to bet in US dollars. Or perhaps you trust gold?

Bullish for bitcoin.

logical_song

not_on_fire said:

logical_song said:

View_From_Cumbria said:

The German elections surely add another straw to the camel's back against polling methods. It is hardly a surprise that people aren't entirely honest with pollsters - some can't be honest with their partners - or even sometimes themselves.

That political opinion polls sometimes get it wrong - or sometimes only get it right because of the laws of probability - is hardly serious. BUT if the methodology or underlying logic is wrong for that then what of the logic and methodology behind the whole of the advertising industry ?

Even internet predictive advertising is crap - every space here and on Guido is either trying to persuade me to sign up as a pupil at Sedbergh School - I am 57 - or else book a hotel in Besancon. Now, It thinks I need the latter because I booked one yesterday. Like I'm going to need another hotel room AFTER I've booked ???

"The German elections surely add another straw to the camel's back against polling methods."

INSA Poll 21-22 Sep

CDU 34% (actual 33%)
SPD 21% (actual 20.5%)
AfD 13% (actual 12.6%)
FDP 9% (actual 10.7%)
Linke 11% (actual 9.2%)
Grune 8% (actual 8.9%)

Pretty bloody good!

Not a single KABOOM in sight

What has a comic book shop in Zurich got to do with polling?
Is this what my kids call a 'meme' ?

SouthamObserver

In very different news, my uncle died yesterday. He was an actor of little distinction who went to the US to make his fortune, but never made it. His lasting contributions to our cultural heritage will be that he played one of O'Reilly's men in The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers and being Blakes lawyer in the first-ever episode if Blake's Seven. On a personal level he was a very funny man who was never very goid at hiding his envy of his more successful friends. I thought he was great when I was younger, but hadn't seen him for close to 15 years.

Anyway, the point is that his death got my Mum, his sister, to talk about her family. The Halseys came from Hertfordshire to Kentish Town in the 1860s. They had been shepherds, they became railwaymen. Her Grandad was an engine driver and had 18 (!!!) children, the youngest of which was my grandad. It turns out that one of my Mum's uncles also had nine kids, one of which was AH Halsey, who advised Tony Crossland on education:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2014/oct/16/ah-halsey

So, basically, comprehensives are all my family's fault!!!

kle4

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:

There aren't many great, or even good, political leaders across the Western world. Mediocre is the best we can hope for, right now.

Justin Trudeau is probably the most popular western leader now, though I don't think he can exactly be called great

Other than his abs.

Jonathan

SouthamObserver said:

In very different news, my uncle died yesterday. He was an actor of little distinction who went to the US to make his fortune, but never made it. His lasting contributions to our cultural heritage will be that he played one of O'Reilly's men in The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers and being Blakes lawyer in the first-ever episode if Blake's Seven. On a personal level he was a very funny man who was never very goid at hiding his envy of his more successful friends. I thought he was great when I was younger, but hadn't seen him for close to 15 years.

Anyway, the point is that his death got my Mum, his sister, to talk about her family. The Halseys came from Hertfordshire to Kentish Town in the 1860s. They had been shepherds, they became railwaymen. Her Grandad was an engine driver and had 18 (!!!) children, the youngest of which was my grandad. It turns out that one of my Mum's uncles also had nine kids, one of which was AH Halsey, who advised Tony Crossland on education:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2014/oct/16/ah-halsey

So, basically, comprehensives are all my family's fault!!!

Comprehensives are cool. Thanks.

kle4

Roger said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Chakrabarti setting fire to the tattered remnants of her credibility:
https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/912412501677092864

Remember this is the lady who stood shoulder to shoulder with David Davis when he called his pointless byelection. Her judgement was in tatters long before she joined the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' Zombie club

She does seem to have tossed aside any principles beyond grubby political toady ing in the bin.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Roger, that was an odd by-election.

F1: no markets beyond winner up on Ladbrokes yet.

Dura_Ace

Charles said:

So lying is okay and it's May's fault for not anticipating it?

Well, it's a point of view I suppose

Of course, it's her fault if she doesn't anticipate how her comments will be interpreted. It was just another demonstration, if any were needed, of how catastrophically bad she is at communicating with anyone who isn't exactly like her: a dreary, middle class, emotionally stunted, hideously white bore.

kle4

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

Agreed.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Observer, my condolences, and I'm sorry your uncle didn't enjoy more success.

kle4

Dura_Ace said:

Charles said:

So lying is okay and it's May's fault for not anticipating it?

Well, it's a point of view I suppose

Of course, it's her fault if she doesn't anticipate how her comments will be interpreted. It was just another demonstration, if any were needed, of how catastrophically bad she is at communicating with anyone who isn't exactly like her: a dreary, middle class, emotionally stunted, hideously white bore.

I shall remember that principle the next time anyone but may moans about their opponents twisting their words.

You cannot anticipate for every interpretation, not least because opponents do it beyond any reason, and will find a way to misinterpret no matter how clear you are. This does happen to Corbyn too, if course, it cones down to judging who gas it worse.

Jonathan

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

Agreed.

She wasn't. She didn't. No flowers.

It wasn't just May, hubris infected the entire Tory party.

kle4

Jonathan said:

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

Agreed.

She wasn't. She didn't. No flowers.

It wasn't just May, hubris infected the entire Tory party.

Oh the campaign was not good all around, certainly., no arguments there.

TOPPING

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

In very different news, my uncle died yesterday. He was an actor of little distinction who went to the US to make his fortune, but never made it. His lasting contributions to our cultural heritage will be that he played one of O'Reilly's men in The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers and being Blakes lawyer in the first-ever episode if Blake's Seven. On a personal level he was a very funny man who was never very goid at hiding his envy of his more successful friends. I thought he was great when I was younger, but hadn't seen him for close to 15 years.

Anyway, the point is that his death got my Mum, his sister, to talk about her family. The Halseys came from Hertfordshire to Kentish Town in the 1860s. They had been shepherds, they became railwaymen. Her Grandad was an engine driver and had 18 (!!!) children, the youngest of which was my grandad. It turns out that one of my Mum's uncles also had nine kids, one of which was AH Halsey, who advised Tony Crossland on education:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2014/oct/16/ah-halsey

So, basically, comprehensives are all my family's fault!!!

Comprehensives are cool. Thanks.

Even the b** s****** ones.

HYUFD

Jonathan said:

kle4 said:

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

ydoethur said:

Roger said:

You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!

No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.

Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.

Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.

Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell

Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit

I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.

But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.

Agreed.

She wasn't. She didn't. No flowers.

It wasn't just May, hubris infected the entire Tory party.

True, just the hubris has now switched to Labour

HYUFD

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:

There aren't many great, or even good, political leaders across the Western world. Mediocre is the best we can hope for, right now.

Justin Trudeau is probably the most popular western leader now, though I don't think he can exactly be called great

Other than his abs.

If you like that sort of thing, he is certainly telegenic

Casino_Royale

SouthamObserver said:

In very different news, my uncle died yesterday. He was an actor of little distinction who went to the US to make his fortune, but never made it. His lasting contributions to our cultural heritage will be that he played one of O'Reilly's men in The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers and being Blakes lawyer in the first-ever episode if Blake's Seven. On a personal level he was a very funny man who was never very goid at hiding his envy of his more successful friends. I thought he was great when I was younger, but hadn't seen him for close to 15 years.

Anyway, the point is that his death got my Mum, his sister, to talk about her family. The Halseys came from Hertfordshire to Kentish Town in the 1860s. They had been shepherds, they became railwaymen. Her Grandad was an engine driver and had 18 (!!!) children, the youngest of which was my grandad. It turns out that one of my Mum's uncles also had nine kids, one of which was AH Halsey, who advised Tony Crossland on education:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2014/oct/16/ah-halsey

So, basically, comprehensives are all my family's fault!!!

Sorry to hear about your Uncle.

kle4

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:

There aren't many great, or even good, political leaders across the Western world. Mediocre is the best we can hope for, right now.

Justin Trudeau is probably the most popular western leader now, though I don't think he can exactly be called great

Other than his abs.

If you like that sort of thing, he is certainly telegenic

I am some what jealous of his handsomeness. Whether he's any good in office in policy terms too early to say probably, although he did drop electoral reform pretty quick as I recall.

Casino_Royale

Sean_F said:

There aren't many great, or even good, political leaders across the Western world. Mediocre is the best we can hope for, right now.

One wonders why.

HYUFD

.

'If you like that sort of thing, he is certainly telegenic
I am some what jealous of his handsomeness. Whether he's any good in office in policy terms too early to say probably, although he did drop electoral reform pretty quick as I recall.'

Given he won a landslide last time not surprising