You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!
No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.
Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.
Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.
Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell
Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit
I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.
But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.
Agreed.
She wasn't. She didn't. No flowers.
It wasn't just May, hubris infected the entire Tory party.
True, just the hubris has now switched to Labour
Hubris isn't really the word to describe what's going on in Labour. It's more of a bubble. Where the cult of Corbyn seems to be in a feedback loop. There isn't an air of entitlement, but lots of hype and excitement.
In very different news, my uncle died yesterday. He was an actor of little distinction who went to the US to make his fortune, but never made it. His lasting contributions to our cultural heritage will be that he played one of O'Reilly's men in The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers and being Blakes lawyer in the first-ever episode if Blake's Seven. On a personal level he was a very funny man who was never very goid at hiding his envy of his more successful friends. I thought he was great when I was younger, but hadn't seen him for close to 15 years.
Anyway, the point is that his death got my Mum, his sister, to talk about her family. The Halseys came from Hertfordshire to Kentish Town in the 1860s. They had been shepherds, they became railwaymen. Her Grandad was an engine driver and had 18 (!!!) children, the youngest of which was my grandad. It turns out that one of my Mum's uncles also had nine kids, one of which was AH Halsey, who advised Tony Crossland on education:
Mr. Observer, my condolences, and I'm sorry your uncle didn't enjoy more success.
Thanks. I hardly knew him really. His death got my Mum talking, though, and now I know a bit more about where I'm from and I understand a bit more about why I'm like I am and I think like I do.
The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.
IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.
low points.
Seriously? Black Wednesday,Major at war with “The Bastards” in his cabinet, sleaze, cash for questions, chaos over Maarstricht, half the parliamentary Tory party caught with their pants down in various “exotic” sexual escapades. Easily the worst government in my lifetime.
There was an assumption within Tory circles that whatever was done no election could be lost - when the reality dawned belatedly no election could be won. But, it wasn't on the whole bad government. The press used the shagging incidents mercilessly and then when we went "Back to Basics" the whole thing was hopeless. I really don't care about who is knocking off who and think Mary Archer got it right when she castigated John Major only for his lack of taste.
A lot of figures mainly Labour have been strong enough in their seats to be able to say "so what ?" That must be good. But as long as we allow what interests the public to be passed off as public interest then we will go on in this direction. Tim Farron's experience is unusual but his supporters haven't always been above casting the first stone.
It’s true that we lived in more prudish times back then - even being in a homesexual relationship was still viewed as a bit risqué back then. However the sex scandals added to a narrative of a party unfit to govern.
It added to the general image of a party that was putting its interests ahead of the country, that had lost its way and any sense of ethics. That was a bit unfair, of Ken Clarke in particular, but combined with an incredibly strong opposition leader in Blair they seemed to be hanging on for the sake of it. Alan B'stard caught the mood.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
Mr. NorthWales, you must be mistaken. There is no anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Baroness Chakrabarti's report said so. Please report to Re-Education Camp Twenty-Seven for your wrongthink to be corrected.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
The relative lack of coverage is a bit unimpressive. (I was also surprised to hear of the Kurdish referendum in Iraq yesterday, first time I'd heard anything about it).
Mr. NorthWales, you must be mistaken. There is no anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Baroness Chakrabarti's report said so. Please report to Re-Education Camp Twenty-Seven for your wrongthink to be corrected.
Of course that keeper of integrity Baroness Chahrabarti. To be honest her descent from someone who I genuinely listened to to her place in politics today is a great sadness
The relative lack of coverage is a bit unimpressive. (I was also surprised to hear of the Kurdish referendum in Iraq yesterday, first time I'd heard anything about it).
It will not end well. Violence at some level is looking ever more likely. The PP government's cackhandedness increases the chances that, in the end, Catalonia will achieve some kind of independence, I think. Catalans are being forced to choose.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
No way it goes ahead right? But that hardly resolves things. Stressful times.
The relative lack of coverage is a bit unimpressive. (I was also surprised to hear of the Kurdish referendum in Iraq yesterday, first time I'd heard anything about it).
That one seems to have triggered more criticism even though IIRC that one wouldn't lead immediately to a udi like the catalans say theirs will. But then it is more volatile
Given the previous poll was taken before the general election hardly surprising there has been a shift.
The biggest ones are on pensioners, which the Tories having scrapped the ending of the triple lock and winter fuel allowance have begun to redress and on students where Hammond is set to raise the threshold for fees and likely cut fees for courses with a lower earnings premium and maybe the interest rate too
I cannot recall such a time when the "winning" party ripped up its manifesto so completely. It is now implementing a very different set of policies. Right or wrong, this is not going to restore faith in the honesty of politicians. It also makes Corbyn look an authentic and sage leader.
To converts, perhaps; but not to swing voters. He looks a disorganised clown who can't control his party or decide on Brexit policy.
Remember, his Labour only did well because of a Brexit protest, because the LDs are hopeless and because he wasn't expected to do well. The idea that he'll do well when the choice is between him and A.N. Tory who will likely have been a Sec of State with 5 years experience is far less likely ....
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
Mr. L, at the moment the options appear to be referendum or violence.
Not a happy state of affairs.
Incidentally, I think the UKIP leadership decision is made on Friday. So, a pretty significant week ahead, (not to mention the last Malaysian Grand Prix).
I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.
But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.
I think this attaches too much responsibility to one person, which is dangerous when there are underlying currents at work - it risks having a series of "disappointing" leaders if the underlying trend isn't addressed. The general theme in Western politics at present is that people are fed up and inclined to roll the dice. A platform of dull stability turns even loyal voters off. I don't especially like that trend myself, but we need to see it for what it is.
Condolences to Southam for his family loss. It's good to be remembered by affectionate anecdote like his post. That's what we all want, really, isn't it? When I push off I'd like a few whimsical stories cited and a little reflectionon whether it was a life well lived, rather than any (unlikely) outpouring of grief.
Given the previous poll was taken before the general election hardly surprising there has been a shift.
The biggest ones are on pensioners, which the Tories having scrapped the ending of the triple lock and winter fuel allowance have begun to redress and on students where Hammond is set to raise the threshold for fees and likely cut fees for courses with a lower earnings premium and maybe the interest rate too
I cannot recall such a time when the "winning" party ripped up its manifesto so completely. It is now implementing a very different set of policies. Right or wrong, this is not going to restore faith in the honesty of politicians. It also makes Corbyn look an authentic and sage leader.
To converts, perhaps; but not to swing voters. He looks a disorganised clown who can't control his party or decide on Brexit policy.
Remember, his Labour only did well because of a Brexit protest, because the LDs are hopeless and because he wasn't expected to do well. The idea that he'll do well when the choice is between him and A.N. Tory who will likely have been a Sec of State with 5 years experience is far less likely ....
Except the tories will be tired, divided and in office for up to 12 years. That swings bak to team Corbyn.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
Echos of the Northern units of the Peoples' Liberation Army going to Tiananmen Sq, June 4th 1989.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
Is that patriotism or nationalism? I always get confused by that one.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
In my younger days, I used to be more pro-Arab & sceptical of the need for the state of Israel.
Now that bombs explode in London and Islamic-inspired terrorists stalk the streets of the great cities of Western Europe, I find myself very much more understanding of Israel's plight.
I expect I am not the only one.
Whether you describe someone as a terrorist or a freedom-fighter depends on whether the gun is pointing at you or someone else.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
In my younger days, I used to be more pro-Arab & sceptical of the need for the state of Israel.
Now that bombs explode in London and Islamic-inspired terrorists stalk the streets of the great cities of Western Europe, I find myself very much more understanding of Israel's plight.
I expect I am not the only one.
Whether you describe someone as a terrorist or a freedom-fighter depends on whether the gun is pointing at you or someone else.
It certainly affects your viewpoint but pointing guns at anyone, let alone blowing them up, is not a good thing. I would agree most people's view of the arabs has diminished since 9/11.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Added to this, there will be parts of the country where anti-semitism is politically popular.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.
Given the previous poll was taken before the general election hardly surprising there has been a shift.
The biggest ones are on pensioners, which the Tories having scrapped the ending of the triple lock and winter fuel allowance have begun to redress and on students where Hammond is set to raise the threshold for fees and likely cut fees for courses with a lower earnings premium and maybe the interest rate too
I cannot recall such a time when the "winning" party ripped up its manifesto so completely. It is now implementing a very different set of policies. Right or wrong, this is not going to restore faith in the honesty of politicians. It also makes Corbyn look an authentic and sage leader.
To converts, perhaps; but not to swing voters. He looks a disorganised clown who can't control his party or decide on Brexit policy.
Remember, his Labour only did well because of a Brexit protest, because the LDs are hopeless and because he wasn't expected to do well. The idea that he'll do well when the choice is between him and A.N. Tory who will likely have been a Sec of State with 5 years experience is far less likely ....
Except the tories will be tired, divided and in office for up to 12 years. That swings bak to team Corbyn.
There's no "Buggins' Turn" when that will lead to economic meltdown. The last election was not seen as a choice of Government - even Labour candidates were expecting a drubbing and saying "vote for me, not the party". When everyone was convinced that the election was a foregone conclusion, it was a lot easier to treat their own constituency as a by-election, with an opportunity to take a consequence-free kick at Bishop Brennan's arse.
Next time - not so much. 2017 was as good as it gets for Corbyn and Momentum, by quite a way. Next time, that crass collection of giveaways they called a Manifesto gets some scrutiny. And how!
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
Mr. kle4, powers have continually flowed from the centre to Holyrood, though. The opposite process has recently occurred in Spain/Catalonia. I'm not saying that justifies either side's actions, just that the prerequisite to the current situation never occurred in Scotland.
Although the referendum was testy, it was definitely better than the situation in Catalonia/Spain right now.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In very different news, my uncle died yesterday. He was an actor of little distinction who went to the US to make his fortune, but never made it. His lasting contributions to our cultural heritage will be that he played one of O'Reilly's men in The Builders episode of Fawlty Towers and being Blakes lawyer in the first-ever episode if Blake's Seven. On a personal level he was a very funny man who was never very goid at hiding his envy of his more successful friends. I thought he was great when I was younger, but hadn't seen him for close to 15 years.
Anyway, the point is that his death got my Mum, his sister, to talk about her family. The Halseys came from Hertfordshire to Kentish Town in the 1860s. They had been shepherds, they became railwaymen. Her Grandad was an engine driver and had 18 (!!!) children, the youngest of which was my grandad. It turns out that one of my Mum's uncles also had nine kids, one of which was AH Halsey, who advised Tony Crossland on education:
So, basically, comprehensives are all my family's fault!!!
Sorry to hear about your loss, but what a lovely little anecdote.
Condolences to Southam.
I would have thought, though, that even a ten second appearance in the monumental genius that was Watery Fowls sitcom was a major achievement in life!! :-)
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.
The problem is the fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed, when in reality, people who are on the receiving end of oppression can often be very unpleasant people in their own right.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
Are they really going ahead with the referendum?
Yep - they are going to try. However, they are distributing ballots in advance now and the referendum will not look very much like anything recognisable as a proper vote.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.
That is another good example but the moral blindness at the atrocities in Eastern Europe, for example, or China, always struck me as strange. In my teens I saw the scar of the wall carved through the Hartz mountains with all the security pointing backwards to keep their people in. I have never forgotten it.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
Let them leave. What else could we do?
Spain is showing what they woukd do as an alternative. Thankfully our situation never got to this point.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.
The problem is the fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed, when in reality, people who are on the receiving end of oppression can often be very unpleasant people in their own right.
Otoh the oppressors are almost always very unpleasant people, or very quickly made so by their role as oppressors.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
I imagine they would say the will of the people is the Supreme law. Though I had read support for indy had dimmed, so in part this brinkmanship might have been to keep the flame going.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.
The problem is the fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed, when in reality, people who are on the receiving end of oppression can often be very unpleasant people in their own right.
Otoh the oppressors are almost always very unpleasant people, or very quickly made so by their role as oppressors.
Yes, oppressing people is morally corrupt and damaging to the oppressor as well as the oppressed. I have seen violent spouses furious that their partner drives them to such extremes. Israel often seems like that. They want to be a liberal western democracy but they feel trapped.
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.
The problem is the fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed, when in reality, people who are on the receiving end of oppression can often be very unpleasant people in their own right.
Otoh the oppressors are almost always very unpleasant people, or very quickly made so by their role as oppressors.
Sure, but ethnic conflicts are rarely clear cut examples of good vs evil. Each side oppresses the other when it can.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
Are they really going ahead with the referendum?
Yep - they are going to try. However, they are distributing ballots in advance now and the referendum will not look very much like anything recognisable as a proper vote.
Turnout will be key but who will believe it? The lack of media attention to this is shocking.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
What will the EU do - just carry on and ignore an independent Catalonia? I suspect they have to. It will certainly make the SNP's blithe assurances that Scotland would be welcomed with open arms rather more difficult to sustain.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
What will the EU do - just carry on and ignore an independent Catalonia? I suspect they have to. It will certainly make the SNP's blithe assurances that Scotland would be welcomed with open arms rather more difficult to sustain.
If it goes ahead, surely turnout will be poor, despite their claims are they really going to declare based on that,? And won't the police just prevent counting?
Sky are really having a go on labour's anti-semitism this morning. They are like a dog with a bone and it is not a pretty sight for this so called 'lovely' Jeremy.
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
I was walking past the Socialist Worker table on Saturday. As usual it was a combination of "kick the Tories out" and "Freedom for Palestine". It's been like that for years. There is an obsession with Israel and their somewhat brutal treatment of those they conquered in 1967 which is hard to fathom, there have been many more brutalities over the last 50 years, but this is the tradition that Corbyn has lived in all his adult life.
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Labour were the same towards apartheid South Africa. They have always taken a strong stance against oppression of the weak by the powerful particularly when we appear to be giving unequivocal support to the oppressors. It's one of the reasons Labour still have a strong body of support however bonkers some of their domestic policies seem to be.
The problem is the fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed, when in reality, people who are on the receiving end of oppression can often be very unpleasant people in their own right.
Otoh the oppressors are almost always very unpleasant people, or very quickly made so by their role as oppressors.
Sure, but ethnic conflicts are rarely clear cut examples of good vs evil. Each side oppresses the other when it can.
Well, then we're in the position of judging those who indulge their worst inclinations because they have the whip hand over those who would like to indulge their worst inclinations but can't because they don't have the whip hand. I know who I think should be first in line.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
Are they really going ahead with the referendum?
Yep - they are going to try. However, they are distributing ballots in advance now and the referendum will not look very much like anything recognisable as a proper vote.
Turnout will be key but who will believe it? The lack of media attention to this is shocking.
Those against independence have been advised to ignore the ballot. So turnout will be more interesting than the vote itself. I think <30% kills it off for quite a while, whereas >70% means unstoppable momentum.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
It's interesting but here in the south where many Spaniards have relatives in Catalonia very little is said about it at all.
I think the inexorable march to a minority Corbyn led Govt is as inevitable as the stuttering, procrastinating Brexit we are meshed in.
O/T....I'm going to inflict this earworm on my fellow pbErs. I don't buy into the racist debate, but it's very funny and immature, but like me, some of you will be humming it to yourselves for the rest of the day
Just to add, really sad news about MarkSenior, a true LD stalwart and expert in all things yellow. And he was still posting until very recently. My heartfelt sympathy to his friends and family.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander: https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.
IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.
I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.
Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.
There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.
You could also have added the highly unpopular Labour Government during the mid-1967 - mid-1969 period.Labour was routed at the 1968 Local Elections when the Tories won control of Hackney - Islington -Lambeth and city councils such as Sheffield and Norwich. Labour lost Glasgow too to a Tory/SNP coalition.All the major cities were then Tory controlled - and 1969 was only slightly less disatrous for Labour. It is far too early though to expect this Government to be encountering similar electoral headwinds. There is no precedent for that happening a few months after a General Election.
You would have been second but my post has disappeared. It must have been my use of 'twisted Euro obsessives' or 'Lord of the Flies' or 'Corbyn seems like the cerebral alternative'!
No, it's on a phantom thread. Try the vanilla forums page and you'll see it there. For some reason VF creates double posts of thread headers.
Not if I'm honest that it struck me as a particularly accurate comment. Corbyn does not look like a 'cerebral alternative' to May to anybody who has a functioning cerebrum. He looks like a populist with a big ego and some seriously stupid backers, a number of whom are actually sinister.
Trouble for the Tories is that May doesn't look much better and there is no obvious replacement.
Ah! Thank you. You're absolutely right. A man on an ego trip is more accurate. It's difficult as a serial Labour voter to watch while this phoney is treated like a messiah. But my point wasn't about Corbyn it was about Brexit and how the Tories twisted Euro obsession had created the Frankenstein monster that is jeremy Corbyn and his Fritz John McDonnell
Corbyn was elected Labour leader before Brexit and he also won the 2016 local elections before Brexit, it was continued austerity and rising student fee repayments which Corbyn capitalised on he simply neutralised Brexit
I think Roger's point is that once people had voted against the political establishment over Brexit, it made some of them more willing to do so in an election.
But, if May had been a decent campaigner, I still think she'd have won 350 or so seats.
Agreed.
She wasn't. She didn't. No flowers.
It wasn't just May, hubris infected the entire Tory party.
True, just the hubris has now switched to Labour
Hubris isn't really the word to describe what's going on in Labour. It's more of a bubble. Where the cult of Corbyn seems to be in a feedback loop. There isn't an air of entitlement, but lots of hype and excitement.
Corbyn seems to have adopted the Stalinist behaviour of clapping himself as well.
On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.
IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.
I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.
Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.
There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.
The difference is that in the grand scheme of things none of those situations, though grave and all-consuming at the time, was as consequential as Brexit. What happens over the next two or three years will set the UK's course for decades to follow.
As did the IMF rescue of 1976. As did Maastricht/Black Wednesday.
I think the comparisons are valid and in many crucial respects those governments were weaker than May's. For a start, they all faced imminent elections against united and potent opposition.
It is possible maybe even probable of course that May will surpass them but we're not there yet.
I have to go. Have a good morning.
No, the IMF bailout was the end of something; as was Black Wrdnesday. We're at the start of something with Brexit.
Healey pointed out that following revisions to the initial data available the IMF bailout had not actually been necessary at all!
On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
The left have always been better at language, vocabulary and story telling. The left is far better at enticing people into its vision by the use of vocabulary. That is what needs a counter balance.
On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.
IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.
I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.
Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.
There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.
The difference is that in the grand scheme of things none of those situations, though grave and all-consuming at the time, was as consequential as Brexit. What happens over the next two or three years will set the UK's course for decades to follow.
As did the IMF rescue of 1976. As did Maastricht/Black Wednesday.
I think the comparisons are valid and in many crucial respects those governments were weaker than May's. For a start, they all faced imminent elections against united and potent opposition.
It is possible maybe even probable of course that May will surpass them but we're not there yet.
I have to go. Have a good morning.
No, the IMF bailout was the end of something; as was Black Wrdnesday. We're at the start of something with Brexit.
Healey pointed out that following revisions to the initial data available the IMF bailout had not actually been necessary at all!
That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Of course Corbyn and McDonnell would wreak more damage than Brexit. Quite apart from anything else, it would in addition to any Brexit fallout, and, as we have seen this week, they fully intend to use the addition 'take back control' powers to go the full Venezuela. Unrestrained by EU rules, the damage will be massive.
On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
They are too busy fighting over Brexit.
The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.
The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.
Not so sure about that. The obstruction on the road to Corbynism is Corbynism. The only question is whether voters will see it in time, or crash into it.
The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.
Not so sure about that. The obstruction on the road to Corbynism is Corbynism. The only question is whether voters will see it in time, or crash into it.
Given another 3 or 4 years to mature and develop I wonder what 2020 Corbynism will look like.
The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.
Not so sure about that. The obstruction on the road to Corbynism is Corbynism. The only question is whether voters will see it in time, or crash into it.
Given another 3 or 4 years to mature and develop I wonder what 2020 Corbynism will look like.
The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.
Not so sure about that. The obstruction on the road to Corbynism is Corbynism. The only question is whether voters will see it in time, or crash into it.
Voters only risk big experiments when there's a mood of complacency. A disastrous outcome of the Brexit talks could be just the ticket to sober people up.
The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.
IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.
I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.
Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.
There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.
The difference is that in the grand scheme of things none of those situations, though grave and all-consuming at the time, was as consequential as Brexit. What happens over the next two or three years will set the UK's course for decades to follow.
As did the IMF rescue of 1976. As did Maastricht/Black Wednesday.
I think the comparisons are valid and in many crucial respects those governments were weaker than May's. For a start, they all faced imminent elections against united and potent opposition.
It is possible maybe even probable of course that May will surpass them but we're not there yet.
I have to go. Have a good morning.
No, the IMF bailout was the end of something; as was Black Wrdnesday. We're at the start of something with Brexit.
Healey pointed out that following revisions to the initial data available the IMF bailout had not actually been necessary at all!
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
Except that, under your model, India and Ireland would be part of the Empire and the ANC a footnote in history
The right to an occasional vote on independence is inalienable. The Spanish constitution strips the Catalans of that freedom
On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Are you forgetting the vast swathe of WWC Labour voters who voted Brexit because...because...well I wouldn't dare to presume why they voted Brexit. Perhaps on account of droite de suite and they were angry because it threatened London's position in the global art market. Who knows?
And there are lots of such people in the Labour Party.
The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.
Not so sure about that. The obstruction on the road to Corbynism is Corbynism. The only question is whether voters will see it in time, or crash into it.
Voters only risk big experiments when there's a mood of complacency. A disastrous outcome of the Brexit talks could be just the ticket to sober people up.
Whilst that might be true, that would be countered by the likelihood that the government will get the blame for any Brexit damage.
It's really very unpredictable, and I think anyone who claims to know how it will all turn out is kidding himself. Any outcome from a disastrous Corbyn majority government to a decent Conservative majority can be envisaged on reasonable assumptions. The LibDems could also become a wildcard in the political shenanigans.
The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.
Not so sure about that. The obstruction on the road to Corbynism is Corbynism. The only question is whether voters will see it in time, or crash into it.
Given another 3 or 4 years to mature and develop I wonder what 2020 Corbynism will look like.
Much like the 1978 version, surely.
If they carry on ramping it up at each conference to play to the crowd, then we'll be looking at collectivisation by 2020.
That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Of course Corbyn and McDonnell would wreak more damage than Brexit. Quite apart from anything else, it would in addition to any Brexit fallout, and, as we have seen this week, they fully intend to use the addition 'take back control' powers to go the full Venezuela. Unrestrained by EU rules, the damage will be massive.
It will be ironic, to say the least, to see Brexiteer Tories foaming about what Corbyn is doing which might have been stopped by EU rules.
Frauke Petry has now resigned from the AfF completely.
A clash of personalities and ideologies it seems - and Petry has lost out to Alice Weidel in terms of the female face of the party.
Whatever you think of the politics I do find it a little odd you would get elected on a party platform and within 12 hours of being elected quit the party but keep your seat.
It will be interesting to see how German politics develops - how can Merkel shift right to pick up AfD voters while in coalition with the Greens and Liberals?
On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Are you forgetting the vast swathe of WWC Labour voters who voted Brexit because...because...well I wouldn't dare to presume why they voted Brexit. Perhaps on account of droite de suite and they were angry because it threatened London's position in the global art market. Who knows?
And there are lots of such people in the Labour Party.
That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Of course Corbyn and McDonnell would wreak more damage than Brexit. Quite apart from anything else, it would in addition to any Brexit fallout, and, as we have seen this week, they fully intend to use the addition 'take back control' powers to go the full Venezuela. Unrestrained by EU rules, the damage will be massive.
It will be ironic, to say the least, to see Brexiteer Tories foaming about what Corbyn is doing which might have been stopped by EU rules.
They should argue that now control has been well and truly taken back, it's up to our democratic process to decide the nature of our governments - no matter how baleful - and we don't need the EU to protect us from ourselves.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
But they are proving to be electorally much more popular than anyone expected. Corbyn has shown an ability to moderate his previous positions to widen his appeal, most recently in the acceptance of an EEA "transition" period, which about 95% of Labour members hope will become permanent. The policies that have been unveiled this week, whilst further to the left than the new Labour years, are not a reprise of the 1980s - they are nowhere near as extreme as the Alternative Economic Strategy was then. And doorstep encounters with voters give me the strong impression that people do not want more of the same - they are tired of identikit posh boy politicians like Cameron (and Miliband) - a great deal of Corbyn's appeal lies in his ordinariness and in the fact that he is completely unassociated with what is now seen as the failures of the past two decades.
Labour moderates have neither the leaders or the policies to challenge the Corbynites. And, crucially, there is no evidence that a moderate leader would be more electorally successful. The conventional wisdom that elections are always won from the centre no longer holds IMO. And the example of the SDP shows that even a well-supported breakaway by senior figures is not likely to advance the moderate cause.
For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. This will not be done by droning on about the single market on every conceivable occasion or by premature calls for a second referendum. And it certainly won't be done by splitting the Labour Party and leaving the field to the Tories. The fact is that the country faces a choice between the divisive and destructive incompetence of the government and a Labour Party which, whilst far from perfect, just might offer a way out of the ghastly mess in which we find ourselves. The choice we face is certain disaster with the Tories or the possibly of something better with Corbyn. So Corbyn it will be.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
But they are proving to be electorally much more popular than anyone expected. Corbyn has shown an ability to moderate his previous positions to widen his appeal, most recently in the acceptance of an EEA "transition" period, which about 95% of Labour members hope will become permanent. The policies that have been unveiled this week, whilst further to the left than the new Labour years, are not a reprise of the 1980s - they are nowhere near as extreme as the Alternative Economic Strategy was then. And doorstep encounters with voters give me the strong impression that people do not want more of the same - they are tired of identikit posh boy politicians like Cameron (and Miliband) - a great deal of Corbyn's appeal lies in his ordinariness and in the fact that he is completely unassociated with what is now seen as the failures of the past two decades.
Labour moderates have neither the leaders or the policies to challenge the Corbynites. And, crucially, there is no evidence that a moderate leader would be more electorally successful. The conventional wisdom that elections are always won from the centre no longer holds IMO. And the example of the SDP shows that even a well-supported breakaway by senior figures is not likely to advance the moderate cause.
For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. This will not be done by droning on about the single market on every conceivable occasion or by premature calls for a second referendum. And it certainly won't be done by splitting the Labour Party and leaving the field to the Tories. The fact is that the country faces a choice between the divisive and destructive incompetence of the government and a Labour Party which, whilst far from perfect, just might offer a way out of the ghastly mess in which we find ourselves. The choice we face is certain disaster with the Tories or the possibly of something better with Corbyn. So Corbyn it will be.
Liz Duckworth has died and within minutes the BBC announce Tony Booth had also died
Met Liz Dawn with 3 other Corry cast members in a pub in Manchester quite by chance. She was absolutely lovely! Warm, engaging with a word for everyone. Not at all starry in the slightest. RIP.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
But they are proving to be electorally much more popular than anyone expected. Corbyn has shown an ability to moderate his previous positions to widen his appeal, most recently in the acceptance of an EEA "transition" period, which about 95% of Labour members hope will become permanent. The policies that have been unveiled this week, whilst further to the left than the new Labour years, are not a reprise of the 1980s - they are nowhere near as extreme as the Alternative Economic Strategy was then. And doorstep encounters with voters give me the strong impression that people do not want more of the same - they are tired of identikit posh boy politicians like Cameron (and Miliband) - a great deal of Corbyn's appeal lies in his ordinariness and in the fact that he is completely unassociated with what is now seen as the failures of the past two decades.
Labour moderates have neither the leaders or the policies to challenge the Corbynites. And, crucially, there is no evidence that a moderate leader would be more electorally successful. The conventional wisdom that elections are always won from the centre no longer holds IMO. And the example of the SDP shows that even a well-supported breakaway by senior figures is not likely to advance the moderate cause.
For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. This will not be done by droning on about the single market on every conceivable occasion or by premature calls for a second referendum. And it certainly won't be done by splitting the Labour Party and leaving the field to the Tories. The fact is that the country faces a choice between the divisive and destructive incompetence of the government and a Labour Party which, whilst far from perfect, just might offer a way out of the ghastly mess in which we find ourselves. The choice we face is certain disaster with the Tories or the possibly of something better with Corbyn. So Corbyn it will be.
On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
Yes, I agree with that. Hammond has been a disappointment.
I think Gove as Chancellor with, say, Dominic Raab or Damian Hinds as Chief Secretary could be powerful.
I heard Robert Courts recently, and I thought he was good too.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
Except that, under your model, India and Ireland would be part of the Empire and the ANC a footnote in history
The right to an occasional vote on independence is inalienable. The Spanish constitution strips the Catalans of that freedom
Engaging in civil disobedience in defence of genuine rights is perfectly legitimate *when there is no democratic route available*. The Spanish are in danger of granting that legitimacy. That said, I'm doubtful in all three examples.
Ireland is a different case but had those seeking independence kept to the rule of law, there's a good chance that Home Rule would have been delivered in the early 1920s (which might admittedly have provoked violence from protestants in the north in response). Whether that would then have drifted to independence is an open question and would have probably depended on the political skill of the respective leaders.
Similarly, India was already on the route to Responsible Government in the 1930s. Would that have happened had campaigning kept to petitions, letter-writing and lobbying? Who knows - but the fact that the protests were overwhelmingly peaceful gave them considerable power, so a peaceful, lawful campaign might have ended up somewhere similar, if not quite so quickly. Dominion status followed by full independence would probably have come, even without WWII and the winds of change.
As for the ANC, did their violence in the 1980s help or hinder their campaign? I suspect the latter. An international campaign based on the injustice of apartheid would probably have been more effective if the cynical, the worried and the closet racists didn't have the argument that it was a necessary evil because the ANC's antics proved that blacks couldn't be trusted with power - an argument that carried some weight both inside and outside the country. Internal and international pressure would almost certainly have brought apartheid to an end anyway.
Similarly, if the referendum is disallowed, I can't see how politics-as-normal can be resumed and the injustice will find endless ways of burnishing the division between the Catalans and Madrid.
Liz Duckworth has died and within minutes the BBC announce Tony Booth had also died
Met Liz Dawn with 3 other Corry cast members in a pub in Manchester quite by chance. She was absolutely lovely! Warm, engaging with a word for everyone. Not at all starry in the slightest. RIP.
One less candidate for public voted DG of BBC then. RIP.
Comments
Meanwhile Theresa May entertained the Irish PM at Downing Street yesterday and will meet Donald Tusk there today. She presently has the toughest job in politics and I just cannot see anyone who would either want to or even could do anymore on this almost impossible mission of Brexit.
I am often accused of being Theresa's greatest supporter on here but my support for her is pragmatic and does not include endorsing her to take the party into the next GE. However, she does seem to be the only serious politician at present
https://twitter.com/matthewbennett/status/912595039771152384
The relative lack of coverage is a bit unimpressive. (I was also surprised to hear of the Kurdish referendum in Iraq yesterday, first time I'd heard anything about it).
Remember, his Labour only did well because of a Brexit protest, because the LDs are hopeless and because he wasn't expected to do well. The idea that he'll do well when the choice is between him and A.N. Tory who will likely have been a Sec of State with 5 years experience is far less likely ....
Of course it is possible to disapprove of Israel without being anti Semitic but it must be increasingly more difficult as the years go by. For a start hating Jews more locally who are even aware of your existence must be a temptation. If they look to stand up for Israel it becomes even easier. The far left have got themselves in a difficult place on this.
Not a happy state of affairs.
Incidentally, I think the UKIP leadership decision is made on Friday. So, a pretty significant week ahead, (not to mention the last Malaysian Grand Prix).
Condolences to Southam for his family loss. It's good to be remembered by affectionate anecdote like his post. That's what we all want, really, isn't it? When I push off I'd like a few whimsical stories cited and a little reflectionon whether it was a life well lived, rather than any (unlikely) outpouring of grief.
Now that bombs explode in London and Islamic-inspired terrorists stalk the streets of the great cities of Western Europe, I find myself very much more understanding of Israel's plight.
I expect I am not the only one.
Whether you describe someone as a terrorist or a freedom-fighter depends on whether the gun is pointing at you or someone else.
Next time - not so much. 2017 was as good as it gets for Corbyn and Momentum, by quite a way. Next time, that crass collection of giveaways they called a Manifesto gets some scrutiny. And how!
Although the referendum was testy, it was definitely better than the situation in Catalonia/Spain right now.
I would have thought, though, that even a ten second appearance in the monumental genius that was Watery Fowls sitcom was a major achievement in life!! :-)
But SeanF is right too.
The lack of media attention to this is shocking.
https://twitter.com/PCollinsTimes/status/912598439174778880
https://twitter.com/PCollinsTimes/status/912590435264188416
'From Corbyn to Cameron, we all share blame for Brexit shambles - but no single market access would mean we MUST vote again'
http://tinyurl.com/y9l7ngnc
O/T....I'm going to inflict this earworm on my fellow pbErs. I don't buy into the racist debate, but it's very funny and immature, but like me, some of you will be humming it to yourselves for the rest of the day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0535ESranU
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/912477664535105542
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-41382494
https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/british-politics-news-vince-cable-liberal-democrats-latest-news-97202/
http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/6039421/50-years-ago-today-the-beatles-boast-nos-1-5-on-billboard-hot
Logical...I think Birra was being ever so slightly sarcastic.....
You could also have added the highly unpopular Labour Government during the mid-1967 - mid-1969 period.Labour was routed at the 1968 Local Elections when the Tories won control of Hackney - Islington -Lambeth and city councils such as Sheffield and Norwich. Labour lost Glasgow too to a Tory/SNP coalition.All the major cities were then Tory controlled - and 1969 was only slightly less disatrous for Labour.
It is far too early though to expect this Government to be encountering similar electoral headwinds. There is no precedent for that happening a few months after a General Election.
And perhaps another example of the Corbynista overreach that is happening this week:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/labour-have-been-playing-war-games-to-help-them-get-ready?utm_term=.hyWQqpwJOg#.caD9dA1npo
https://reaction.life/labour-preparing-communist-war-games-financial-chaos-corbyn-wins-power/
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-today-programme-spat-deny-pulled-out-laura-kuenssberg_uk_59ca1653e4b01cc57ff5140a?88q
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
The road to Corbynism seems pretty clear of obstacles at the moment.
The right to an occasional vote on independence is inalienable. The Spanish constitution strips the Catalans of that freedom
http://www.natcen.ac.uk/blog/who-voted-labour-in-2017?_ga=2.1622454.682480170.1506331403-2069454732.1462541675
Corbyn might have picked up some votes as LDs ran lacklustre campaign. Though some Tory voters crossed sides in June.
And there are lots of such people in the Labour Party.
It's really very unpredictable, and I think anyone who claims to know how it will all turn out is kidding himself. Any outcome from a disastrous Corbyn majority government to a decent Conservative majority can be envisaged on reasonable assumptions. The LibDems could also become a wildcard in the political shenanigans.
Whatever you think of the politics I do find it a little odd you would get elected on a party platform and within 12 hours of being elected quit the party but keep your seat.
It will be interesting to see how German politics develops - how can Merkel shift right to pick up AfD voters while in coalition with the Greens and Liberals?
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/912358258052083712
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
But they are proving to be electorally much more popular than anyone expected. Corbyn has shown an ability to moderate his previous positions to widen his appeal, most recently in the acceptance of an EEA "transition" period, which about 95% of Labour members hope will become permanent. The policies that have been unveiled this week, whilst further to the left than the new Labour years, are not a reprise of the 1980s - they are nowhere near as extreme as the Alternative Economic Strategy was then. And doorstep encounters with voters give me the strong impression that people do not want more of the same - they are tired of identikit posh boy politicians like Cameron (and Miliband) - a great deal of Corbyn's appeal lies in his ordinariness and in the fact that he is completely unassociated with what is now seen as the failures of the past two decades.
Labour moderates have neither the leaders or the policies to challenge the Corbynites. And, crucially, there is no evidence that a moderate leader would be more electorally successful. The conventional wisdom that elections are always won from the centre no longer holds IMO. And the example of the SDP shows that even a well-supported breakaway by senior figures is not likely to advance the moderate cause.
For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. This will not be done by droning on about the single market on every conceivable occasion or by premature calls for a second referendum. And it certainly won't be done by splitting the Labour Party and leaving the field to the Tories. The fact is that the country faces a choice between the divisive and destructive incompetence of the government and a Labour Party which, whilst far from perfect, just might offer a way out of the ghastly mess in which we find ourselves. The choice we face is certain disaster with the Tories or the possibly of something better with Corbyn. So Corbyn it will be.
I think Gove as Chancellor with, say, Dominic Raab or Damian Hinds as Chief Secretary could be powerful.
I heard Robert Courts recently, and I thought he was good too.
Ireland is a different case but had those seeking independence kept to the rule of law, there's a good chance that Home Rule would have been delivered in the early 1920s (which might admittedly have provoked violence from protestants in the north in response). Whether that would then have drifted to independence is an open question and would have probably depended on the political skill of the respective leaders.
Similarly, India was already on the route to Responsible Government in the 1930s. Would that have happened had campaigning kept to petitions, letter-writing and lobbying? Who knows - but the fact that the protests were overwhelmingly peaceful gave them considerable power, so a peaceful, lawful campaign might have ended up somewhere similar, if not quite so quickly. Dominion status followed by full independence would probably have come, even without WWII and the winds of change.
As for the ANC, did their violence in the 1980s help or hinder their campaign? I suspect the latter. An international campaign based on the injustice of apartheid would probably have been more effective if the cynical, the worried and the closet racists didn't have the argument that it was a necessary evil because the ANC's antics proved that blacks couldn't be trusted with power - an argument that carried some weight both inside and outside the country. Internal and international pressure would almost certainly have brought apartheid to an end anyway.
Similarly, if the referendum is disallowed, I can't see how politics-as-normal can be resumed and the injustice will find endless ways of burnishing the division between the Catalans and Madrid.