Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Merkel doesn't get to rest on her laurels. Instead, she gets a chance to prove herself against more clearly defined challenges than she has ever faced.
I see the Labour leadership contest as a pivotal moment in the long and bloody war between the bitterly opposed wings of British socialism - a Battle of Corbyngrad between the true socialists on the side of of the Union Politburo, and the evil Blairite socialists on the other (Blairzis may be an appropriate term for them). If General JerCorv can persuade the Politburo to send enough troops from the East then the combined might of the Blairzi forces, currently somewhat unsteadily headed by von Küper, von Kändell and von Burnheim, could be surrounded and destroyed.
Comrades, call your brothers in from the cold reaches of political Siberia they've been confined to while the Blairzis have been on top. Urge them to pay the £3 so they too can man the barricades of Corbyngrad and help end the scourge of Blairzism once and for all!
At the same conference fringe event, former broadcaster Paul Mason warned the first six months of a Corbyn government would be "like Stalingrad", with attacks from the establishment. Mr McDonnell said the party was trying to "answer the question about what happens when, or if, they come for us". "People want to know we're ready, and they want to know we've got a response to anything that could happen.
... For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. ...
There is an apposite observation on that point in the comments to a Guardian article on Corbyn's Brexit policy, by someone posting under the name HeraldEurybates:
He [Corbyn] has told you [what his Brexit policy is].
He is a hard Brexiter who wants the UK out of the single market.
He told you that on 24/06/16 when he called for Art 50 to the triggered immediately.
He told you that when he promised unequivocal support for May triggering Art 50.
He told you that when he sabotaged his own paroles amendments on the single market and citizens rights.
He told you that when he whipped his party to defeat amendments on the single market.
He told you that when he sacked shadow ministers for voting for the single market amendments.
He told you that in the Labour manifesto, where the end to free movement was promised.
He told you that in interviews yesterday when he (dishonestly or ignorantly) said that the single market would stop Labour implementing its policies.
He told you that when he proposed a Brexit policy that was functionaly identical to the Tories hard Brexit.
Don't forget his lifelong hatred of the EU, which he regards as a capitalist club.
What more evidence do you need?
Seriously?
I don't think the 'dishonestly or ignorantly' bit is right, but the rest is spot on. Pro-EU Labour moderates are being conned, or, to be more accurate, are conning themselves, because Corbyn and McDonnell haven't hidden their views.
Yes they can be relied on to turnout especially if there is a real chance of Corbyn becoming PM. The lower turnout in June was caused by May's dementia tax and the belief that the Tories would win anyway. Next time it will be different. As a Labour supporter I would say that Corbyn's defeat is essential for Labour to survive as a political force. A Corbyn government would be such a catastrophe that it would toxify Labour for decades.
I see the Labour leadership contest as a pivotal moment in the long and bloody war between the bitterly opposed wings of British socialism - a Battle of Corbyngrad between the true socialists on the side of of the Union Politburo, and the evil Blairite socialists on the other (Blairzis may be an appropriate term for them). If General JerCorv can persuade the Politburo to send enough troops from the East then the combined might of the Blairzi forces, currently somewhat unsteadily headed by von Küper, von Kändell and von Burnheim, could be surrounded and destroyed.
Comrades, call your brothers in from the cold reaches of political Siberia they've been confined to while the Blairzis have been on top. Urge them to pay the £3 so they too can man the barricades of Corbyngrad and help end the scourge of Blairzism once and for all!
At the same conference fringe event, former broadcaster Paul Mason warned the first six months of a Corbyn government would be "like Stalingrad", with attacks from the establishment. Mr McDonnell said the party was trying to "answer the question about what happens when, or if, they come for us". "People want to know we're ready, and they want to know we've got a response to anything that could happen.
Except that, under your model, India and Ireland would be part of the Empire and the ANC a footnote in history
The right to an occasional vote on independence is inalienable. The Spanish constitution strips the Catalans of that freedom
Ireland is a different case but had those seeking independence kept to the rule of law, there's a good chance that Home Rule would have been delivered in the early 1920s (which might admittedly have provoked violence from protestants in the north in response). Whether that would then have drifted to independence is an open question and would have probably depended on the political skill of the respective leaders.
Similarly, India was already on the route to Responsible Government in the 1930s. Would that have happened had campaigning kept to petitions, letter-writing and lobbying? Who knows - but the fact that the protests were overwhelmingly peaceful gave them considerable power, so a peaceful, lawful campaign might have ended up somewhere similar, if not quite so quickly. Dominion status followed by full independence would probably have come, even without WWII and the winds of change.
As for the ANC, did their violence in the 1980s help or hinder their campaign? I suspect the latter. An international campaign based on the injustice of apartheid would probably have been more effective if the cynical, the worried and the closet racists didn't have the argument that it was a necessary evil because the ANC's antics proved that blacks couldn't be trusted with power - an argument that carried some weight both inside and outside the country. Internal and international pressure would almost certainly have brought apartheid to an end anyway.
Similarly, if the referendum is disallowed, I can't see how politics-as-normal can be resumed and the injustice will find endless ways of burnishing the division between the Catalans and Madrid.
There was a chance for India to become a fully self-governing dominion, like Australia, South Africa, Canada and NZ, as many Indians expected post WWI, and that chance ended in 1919.
You are right to imply India probably would have ditched the King-Emperor and Maharajas eventually, anyway, but probably not until the 1950s/1960s. The path would have been smoother and more peaceful, and we'd have had an even closer relationship with them today.
Ireland is very hard to call. But I think it might have been possible to prevent full Republicanism and a split in the island of Ireland, provided the right constitutional settlement had been devised, but the 1916 uprising, the British response, and the Irish War of 1920-1921 put an end to that for good.
McDonnell on video talking about how their radical agenda will be like nothing seen before and outlining how he would try to mitigrate runs on the pound and the flight of capital.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
No. I am increasingly convinced the government will blunder into a car crash Brexit which will cause severe economic and political damage to the UK. Nothing Corbyn might do could come close to that.
Brexit is a renegotiation of a more detached political and economic relationship with our neighbours; it has a number of possible outcomes, and risks defaulting to "zero" due to extremists on both sides, but Corbyn's programme is crack-suicide squad for the entire British economy.
McDonnell on video talking about how their radical agenda will be like nothing seen before and outlining how he would try to mitigrate runs on the pound and the flight of capital.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
Scary
Luckily from his point of view if we've left the EU he'll be able to reintroduce exchange controls. Just like old times.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
But they are proving to be electorally much more popular than anyone expected. Corbyn has shown an ability to moderate his previous positions to widen his appeal, most recently in the acceptance of an EEA "transition" period, which about 95% of Labour members hope will become permanent. The policies that have been unveiled this week, whilst further to the left than the new Labour years, are not a reprise of the 1980s - they are nowhere near as extreme as the Alternative Economic Strategy was then. And doorstep encounters with voters give me the strong impression that people do not want more of the same - they are tired of identikit posh boy politicians like Cameron (and Miliband) - a great deal of Corbyn's appeal lies in his ordinariness and in the fact that he is completely unassociated with what is now seen as the failures of the past two decades.
Labour moderates have neither the leaders or the policies to challenge the Corbynites. And, crucially, there is no evidence that a moderate leader would be more electorally successful. The conventional wisdom that elections are always won from the centre no longer holds IMO. And the example of the SDP shows that even a well-supported breakaway by senior figures is not likely to advance the moderate cause.
For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. This will not be done by droning on about the single market on every conceivable occasion or by premature calls for a second referendum. And it certainly won't be done by splitting the Labour Party and leaving the field to the Tories. The fact is that the country faces a choice between the divisive and destructive incompetence of the government and a Labour Party which, whilst far from perfect, just might offer a way out of the ghastly mess in which we find ourselves. The choice we face is certain disaster with the Tories or the possibly of something better with Corbyn. So Corbyn it will be.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
No. I am increasingly convinced the government will blunder into a car crash Brexit which will cause severe economic and political damage to the UK. Nothing Corbyn might do could come close to that.
Corbyn would deliver the coup de grace to the UK in just a few months in Office as the pound and pension investments collapse, interest rates rise and the IMF walk in once again
Ireland is a different case but had those seeking independence kept to the rule of law, there's a good chance that Home Rule would have been delivered in the early 1920s. Whether that would then have drifted to independence is an open question and would have probably depended on the political skill of the respective leaders.
Similarly, India was already on the route to Responsible Government in the 1930s. Would that have happened had campaigning kept to petitions, letter-writing and lobbying? Who knows - but the fact that the protests were overwhelmingly peaceful gave them considerable power, so a peaceful, lawful campaign might have ended up somewhere similar, if not quite so quickly. Dominion status followed by full independence would probably have come, even without WWII and the winds of change.
As for the ANC, did their violence in the 1980s help or hinder their campaign? I suspect the latter. An international campaign based on the injustice of apartheid would probably have been more effective if the cynical, the worried and the closet racists didn't have the argument that it was a necessary evil because the ANC's antics proved that blacks couldn't be trusted with power - an argument that carried some weight both inside and outside the country. Internal and international pressure would almost certainly have brought apartheid to an end anyway.
Similarly, if the referendum is disallowed, I can't see how politics-as-normal can be resumed and the injustice will find endless ways of burnishing the division between the Catalans and Madrid.
There was a chance for India to become a fully self-governing dominion, like Australia, South Africa, Canada and NZ, as many Indians expected post WWI, and that chance ended in 1919.
You are right to imply India probably would have ditched the King-Emperor and Maharajas eventually, anyway, but probably not until the 1950s/1960s. The path would have been smoother and more peaceful, and we'd have had an even closer relationship with them today.
Ireland is very hard to call. But I think it might have been possible to prevent full Republicanism and a split in the island of Ireland, provided the right constitutional settlement had been devised, but the 1916 uprising, the British response, and the Irish War of 1920-1921 put an end to that for good.
On Ireland, a less extreme response to the Easter 1916 events could well have seen the IRA marginalised and split, leading to no Sinn Fein landslide, de facto independence or civil war. Home Rule would have been necessary though. Easy in hindsight; harder to do in the middle of a world war.
I'm not convinced the window closed on India in 1919 - though that was clearly one opportunity. The India Act was putting the pieces in place for the move to Responsible Government in the mid-1930s but WWII overtook its implementation.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
But they are proving to be electorally much more popular than anyone expected. Corbyn has shown an ability to moderate his previous positions to widen his appeal, most recently in the acceptance of an EEA "transition" period, which about 95% of Labour members hope will become permanent. The policies that have been unveiled this week, whilst further to the left than the new Labour years, are not a reprise of the 1980s - they are nowhere near as extreme as the Alternative Economic Strategy was then. And doorstep encounters with voters give me the strong impression that people do not want more of the same - they are tired of identikit posh boy politicians like Cameron (and Miliband) - a great deal of Corbyn's appeal lies in his ordinariness and in the fact that he is completely unassociated with what is now seen as the failures of the past two decades.
Labour moderates have neither the leaders or the policies to challenge the Corbynites. And, crucially, there is no evidence that a moderate leader would be more electorally successful. The conventional wisdom that elections are always won from the centre no longer holds IMO. And the example of the SDP shows that even a well-supported breakaway by senior figures is not likely to advance the moderate cause.
For most Labour party moderates (and most Corbynites as well) the overriding objective is to ensure the softest possible Brexit, and ideally reverse the process completely. This will not be done by droning on about the single market on every conceivable occasion or by premature calls for a second referendum. And it certainly won't be done by splitting the Labour Party and leaving the field to the Tories. The fact is that the country faces a choice between the divisive and destructive incompetence of the government and a Labour Party which, whilst far from perfect, just might offer a way out of the ghastly mess in which we find ourselves. The choice we face is certain disaster with the Tories or the possibly of something better with Corbyn. So Corbyn it will be.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I see the Labour leadership contest as a pivotal moment in the long and bloody war between the bitterly opposed wings of British socialism - a Battle of Corbyngrad between the true socialists on the side of of the Union Politburo, and the evil Blairite socialists on the other (Blairzis may be an appropriate term for them). If General JerCorv can persuade the Politburo to send enough troops from the East then the combined might of the Blairzi forces, currently somewhat unsteadily headed by von Küper, von Kändell and von Burnheim, could be surrounded and destroyed.
Comrades, call your brothers in from the cold reaches of political Siberia they've been confined to while the Blairzis have been on top. Urge them to pay the £3 so they too can man the barricades of Corbyngrad and help end the scourge of Blairzism once and for all!
At the same conference fringe event, former broadcaster Paul Mason warned the first six months of a Corbyn government would be "like Stalingrad", with attacks from the establishment. Mr McDonnell said the party was trying to "answer the question about what happens when, or if, they come for us". "People want to know we're ready, and they want to know we've got a response to anything that could happen.
McD seems to be pretty much accepting they'll be a run on the pound.
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
The UK has got itself into a situation where it has no good choices. The worst government and the worst opposition in living memory at a time of maximum peacetime need and exposure. What a mess.
IDS was worse in opposition for sure I think.
I think you're a bit harsh on TM also - she was left a really tough situation by Cam and Osborne... I'd argue their government from 2015 was worse in many ways.
Arguably we are also a very long way off the Major government of 95-97, or even the Callaghan government of 77-79 after the IMF bailout. Perhaps the dog days of the Macmillan government - the Night of the Long Knives and Profumo - could be added as well. At least things are currently stable even if in Sir Humphrey's words it's a rather unstable sort of stability.
There's still time to match/exceed those governments of course, but those are the obvious low points.
The difference is that in the grand scheme of things none of those situations, though grave and all-consuming at the time, was as consequential as Brexit. What happens over the next two or three years will set the UK's course for decades to follow.
As did the IMF rescue of 1976. As did Maastricht/Black Wednesday.
I think the comparisons are valid and in many crucial respects those governments were weaker than this one. For a start, they all faced imminent elections against united and potent opposition....
Did Maastricht/Black Wednesday really 'set the UK's course for decades to follow' ?
It seems to me that from 1997, the UK government had the best part of a decade when it could have pursued more or less any policy it chose in respect of Europe and/or the euro. Likewise they were singularly unecumbered by any economic fallout of the Black Wednesday embarrassment.
Those events certainly had deep repercussions for the Tories, but as for limiting Blair's freedom of action, I don't buy it.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
No. I am increasingly convinced the government will blunder into a car crash Brexit which will cause severe economic and political damage to the UK. Nothing Corbyn might do could come close to that.
It undoubtedly could. A cliff-edge Brexit in 2019 would produce a temporary but severe disruption to trade and economic activity. It'd probably produce a recession as things worked themselves out. But there would be a far side and we would recover. By contrast, significantly changing the rules of the game in tax, borrowing, industrial relations, state ownership etc would produce an ongoing, and probably worsening, climate in which to do business. The damage from that could - and if embedded deeply enough, would - be far worse.
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
Labour Govt., Day One: complete ban on transfer of capital out of the UK. Back to taking a tenner a day spending money on holiday.
Day Two: the start of the biggest buyer's remorse in the history of democracy.
No. I am increasingly convinced the government will blunder into a car crash Brexit which will cause severe economic and political damage to the UK. Nothing Corbyn might do could come close to that.
I am very much in agreement with the first part of that, but I think you unduly optimistic about the second bit...
No. I am increasingly convinced the government will blunder into a car crash Brexit which will cause severe economic and political damage to the UK. Nothing Corbyn might do could come close to that.
It undoubtedly could. A cliff-edge Brexit in 2019 would produce a temporary but severe disruption to trade and economic activity. It'd probably produce a recession as things worked themselves out. But there would be a far side and we would recover. By contrast, significantly changing the rules of the game in tax, borrowing, industrial relations, state ownership etc would produce an ongoing, and probably worsening, climate in which to do business. The damage from that could - and if embedded deeply enough, would - be far worse.
Serious Conservative strategists should look very closely at the option of colluding with the SNP to deliver Scottish independence.
No. I am increasingly convinced the government will blunder into a car crash Brexit which will cause severe economic and political damage to the UK. Nothing Corbyn might do could come close to that.
I am very much in agreement with the first part of that, but I think you unduly optimistic about the second bit...
The one thing that has become apparent that over the summer Corbyn has become a cult figure that has revitalised the youth and with the help of momentum has seen him grow in confidence to follow his hard left agenda.
However, this is the first time I have witnessed anything like this and it is possible Corbyn, McDonnell et al have put too much faith in how much the voting public will endorse them.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
Except that, under your model, India and Ireland would be part of the Empire and the ANC a footnote in history
The right to an occasional vote on independence is inalienable. The Spanish constitution strips the Catalans of that freedom
The Spanish constitution - approved by 91% of Catalan voters in the 1978 referendum - states that any changes to the territorial integrity of the Spanish state can only be approved by Spaniards as a whole. That sets a high bar for independence, but it does not make it impossible. Given that Catalonia itself is split on separation, that is probably no bad thing. Going it alone on the back of 50% plus one is not necessarily going to end well.
In the meantime, the Catalans have a high level of autonomy and, with a change of government in Madrid, the prospect of more. That does not look like India under British rule. Ireland may be different, but it is arguably the British response to the Easter Rising that led to Irish independence. The British reacted just as the separatists wished them to. In the same way, the Partido Popular government in Madrid is doing exactly as the Catalan separatists want now. As has been the case for the last 10 years, the PP is the best friend the Barcelona government has.
In yet more news, a shit-storm of epic proportions is brewing in Spain. Across the country units of the Guardia Civil are being cheered by large crowds as they set off to Catalonia in advance of Sunday's illegal referendum. This is one such scene, in Santander:
It's interesting but here in the south where many Spaniards have relatives in Catalonia very little is said about it at all.
There have been plenty of departures from Guardia Civil centres in Andalucia, too. All with enthusiastic crowds. Here's one:
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
Labour Govt., Day One: complete ban on transfer of capital out of the UK. Back to taking a tenner a day spending money on holiday.
Day Two: the start of the biggest buyer's remorse in the history of democracy.
I suspect money has already started to be squirrelled out of the country in preparation.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
Labour Govt., Day One: complete ban on transfer of capital out of the UK. Back to taking a tenner a day spending money on holiday.
Day Two: the start of the biggest buyer's remorse in the history of democracy.
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
What will the EU do - just carry on and ignore an independent Catalonia? I suspect they have to. It will certainly make the SNP's blithe assurances that Scotland would be welcomed with open arms rather more difficult to sustain.
If it goes ahead, surely turnout will be poor, despite their claims are they really going to declare based on that,? And won't the police just prevent counting?
There are two police forces now operating in Catalonia: the Mossos, which are loyal to the Generalitat, and the Guardia Civil/Policia Nacional, which are controlled by Madrid. Both are armed. All it will take is one officer on one side losing his/her cool and making one bad decision, and hey presto. It could very easily happen.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Spot on prediction. All the complaining by Tories during the GE, that Labour were making up promises and ignoring economics rang hollow given their own willingness to use the same tactics during the Referendum.
It will be ironic that the Tories will achieve Brexit but it will be it will be Corbyn that shapes what type of Brexit we have.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
The one thing that has become apparent that over the summer Corbyn has become a cult figure that has revitalised the youth and with the help of momentum has seen him grow in confidence to follow his hard left agenda.
However, this is the first time I have witnessed anything like this and it is possible Corbyn, McDonnell et al have put too much faith in how much the voting public will endorse them.
Unless they get the youth to vote early and vote often, which would be a Northern Ireland-scale scandal I don't think they'll get a majority of 50. Hung parliament but the reverse of the current Tory/Labour split?
If Labour is the largest party, it still has to get its programme past Lib.Dems, Greens, Plaid, SNP ... and the House of Lords. The Lords have a reasonable record of trying to block mad legislation.
"As a senior Labour politician recently told me: "There is simply no historical model anywhere in the world for what we want to do, which has been successful. A left government being elected in a post-industrial society and then successfully managing to transition into a major new settlement, whether a new form of capitalism or socialism: this is not easy to achieve."
Ireland is a different case but had those seeking independence kept to the rule of law, there's a good chance that Home Rule would have been delivered in the early 1920s. Whether that would then have drifted to independence is an open question and would have probably depended on the political skill of the respective leaders.
Similarly, India was already on the route to Responsible Government in the 1930s. Would that have happened had campaigning kept to petitions, letter-writing and lobbying? Who knows - but the fact that the protests were overwhelmingly peaceful gave them considerable power, so a peaceful, lawful campaign might have ended up somewhere similar, if not quite so quickly. Dominion status followed by full independence would probably have come, even without WWII and the winds of change.
Similarly, if the referendum is disallowed, I can't see how politics-as-normal can be resumed and the injustice will find endless ways of burnishing the division between the Catalans and Madrid.
There was a chance for India to become a fully self-governing dominion, like Australia, South Africa, Canada and NZ, as many Indians expected post WWI, and that chance ended in 1919.
You are right to imply India probably would have ditched the King-Emperor and Maharajas eventually, anyway, but probably not until the 1950s/1960s. The path would have been smoother and more peaceful, and we'd have had an even closer relationship with them today.
Ireland is very hard to call. But I think it might have been possible to prevent full Republicanism and a split in the island of Ireland, provided the right constitutional settlement had been devised, but the 1916 uprising, the British response, and the Irish War of 1920-1921 put an end to that for good.
On Ireland, a less extreme response to the Easter 1916 events could well have seen the IRA marginalised and split, leading to no Sinn Fein landslide, de facto independence or civil war. Home Rule would have been necessary though. Easy in hindsight; harder to do in the middle of a world war.
I'm not convinced the window closed on India in 1919 - though that was clearly one opportunity. The India Act was putting the pieces in place for the move to Responsible Government in the mid-1930s but WWII overtook its implementation.
I think 1919 (and Amritsar in particular) was the turning point.
Up until then the INC, and Ghandi, had been agitating for more respect, equality between the races, and internal self-governance, but were broadly loyal to the Empire.
The one thing that has become apparent that over the summer Corbyn has become a cult figure that has revitalised the youth and with the help of momentum has seen him grow in confidence to follow his hard left agenda.
However, this is the first time I have witnessed anything like this and it is possible Corbyn, McDonnell et al have put too much faith in how much the voting public will endorse them.
Unless they get the youth to vote early and vote often, which would be a Northern Ireland-scale scandal I don't think they'll get a majority of 50. Hung parliament but the reverse of the current Tory/Labour split?
If Labour is the largest party, it still has to get its programme past Lib.Dems, Greens, Plaid, SNP ... and the House of Lords. The Lords have a reasonable record of trying to block mad legislation.
Lords will be first to be dealt with. I expect 'reform' to be announced on day one of Labour government, minutes after the Bank of England is bought back under Chancellor's wing.
McD has let the cat out of bag. They are wargaming how to implement hard left socialism. The manifesto is a total ruse in my opinion. Within months of gaining power they will be saying, we have looked at the books and reviewed the situation and... we need to go much further in our socialist policies comrades.
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
Labour Govt., Day One: complete ban on transfer of capital out of the UK. Back to taking a tenner a day spending money on holiday.
Day Two: the start of the biggest buyer's remorse in the history of democracy.
Can I Godwin that one? Can I? Pleeease.
The restoration of Exchange Controls was in Labour's 1987 Manifesto so it would hardly be new territory at all.In the 1960s the need to support the pound under the Bretton Woods system did lead to tight control on how much currency could be taken out of the UK , but most people felt able to live with that despite the associated inconveniences.
The one thing that has become apparent that over the summer Corbyn has become a cult figure that has revitalised the youth and with the help of momentum has seen him grow in confidence to follow his hard left agenda.
However, this is the first time I have witnessed anything like this and it is possible Corbyn, McDonnell et al have put too much faith in how much the voting public will endorse them.
Hung parliament but the reverse of the current Tory/Labour split?
If Labour is the largest party, it still has to get its programme past Lib.Dems, Greens, Plaid, SNP ... and the House of Lords. The Lords have a reasonable record of trying to block mad legislation.
This is probably why a lot of centrists will be ok with voting for Labour in the end. They are unlikely to win an outright majority and there are enough roadblocks to Corbyn (within and outside his party) carrying out his crazier policies.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
Large scale nationalisation and taking back PFI contracts at less than market value, massive increases in public spending on wages, hospitals, schools, abolition of student fees and the 20 billion annual freebee for social care all add up to countless billions of borrowing or tax.
The increase to 50 top rate will raise peanuts and increasing corporation tax at the time we are Brexiting is suicidal especially with Ireland at 12.5% and Trump about to reduce to between 15 -20%.
The fact McDonnell has to openly talk about his policies crashing the pound and large scale capital flight tells it all. And the thing is, if it looks like they may be near power, the pounds crash and capital flight will already have happened
"As a senior Labour politician recently told me: "There is simply no historical model anywhere in the world for what we want to do, which has been successful. A left government being elected in a post-industrial society and then successfully managing to transition into a major new settlement, whether a new form of capitalism or socialism: this is not easy to achieve."
In Spain, it is hard to see climbdown. One does wonder what we'd have done if the Scottish parliament had said they'd do a poll and declare independence if it were won, regardless of Westminster approval.
In Scotland they respect the rule of law, so it would not have happened. The Catalan stand-off involves two sides egging each other on and one side that has decided that it can pick and choose which laws it will observe.
Except that, under your model, India and Ireland would be part of the Empire and the ANC a footnote in history
The right to an occasional vote on independence is inalienable. The Spanish constitution strips the Catalans of that freedom
The Spanish constitution - approved by 91% of Catalan voters in the 1978 referendum - states that any changes to the territorial integrity of the Spanish state can only be approved by Spaniards as a whole. That sets a high bar for independence, but it does not make it impossible. Given that Catalonia itself is split on separation, that is probably no bad thing. Going it alone on the back of 50% plus one is not necessarily going to end well.
In the meantime, the Catalans have a high level of autonomy and, with a change of government in Madrid, the prospect of more. That does not look like India under British rule. Ireland may be different, but it is arguably the British response to the Easter Rising that led to Irish independence. The British reacted just as the separatists wished them to. In the same way, the Partido Popular government in Madrid is doing exactly as the Catalan separatists want now. As has been the case for the last 10 years, the PP is the best friend the Barcelona government has.
How we reacted to the Easter Rising was wrong, and, at the same time, it wasn't unusual within the context of the time.
The fear of revolution was very strong, both domestically and overseas, and this was at a time when capital punishment was widely accepted, and British soldiers were (legally) shot for desertion.
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
Labour Govt., Day One: complete ban on transfer of capital out of the UK. Back to taking a tenner a day spending money on holiday.
Day Two: the start of the biggest buyer's remorse in the history of democracy.
Can I Godwin that one? Can I? Pleeease.
The restoration of Exchange Controls was in Labour's 1987 Manifesto so it would hardly be new territory at all.In the 1960s the need to support the pound under the Bretton Woods system did lead to tight control on how much currency could be taken out of the UK , but most people felt able to live with that despite the associated inconveniences.
Are Exchange Controls allowed under EU? We may still be in transition by time Labour come to power.
Could this be happening? We leave EU, just as we find we need its protection from a hard left, anti-democratic leadership cult.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
And the electorate today is further to the left than it has been for several decades - there is a widespread view that the unbridled market economy has led to the unjustified enrichment of those at the top at the expense of everybody else. Employment is insecure and poorly paid. Privatised utilities and railways etc are no more efficient or responsive than the old nationalised industries used to be. And anyway many of them are still run by the state - in many cases the French state or the German state rather than the British state.
Condemning Corbyn's economic policies as extreme will be m no more effective for the Tories than condemning his IRA links proved at the general election.
The one thing that has become apparent that over the summer Corbyn has become a cult figure that has revitalised the youth and with the help of momentum has seen him grow in confidence to follow his hard left agenda.
However, this is the first time I have witnessed anything like this and it is possible Corbyn, McDonnell et al have put too much faith in how much the voting public will endorse them.
Unless they get the youth to vote early and vote often, which would be a Northern Ireland-scale scandal I don't think they'll get a majority of 50. Hung parliament but the reverse of the current Tory/Labour split?
If Labour is the largest party, it still has to get its programme past Lib.Dems, Greens, Plaid, SNP ... and the House of Lords. The Lords have a reasonable record of trying to block mad legislation.
I agree with but would include the conservatives and the DUP in both houses and also the prospect of countless appeals to the High Courts as per Gina Miller on rights over share values etc
The restoration of Exchange Controls was in Labour's 1987 Manifesto so it would hardly be new territory at all.In the 1960s the need to support the pound under the Bretton Woods system did lead to tight control on how much currency could be taken out of the UK , but most people felt able to live with that despite the associated inconveniences.
Nothing to do with Bretton Woods. Some of us still remember exchange controls from the 1970s, swept away, thanks goodness, by Maggie. What a liberation that was - I wonder how the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' crowd of young metropolitan high-earners will enjoy the 1970s retro experience.
McDonnell on video talking about how their radical agenda will be like nothing seen before and outlining how he would try to mitigrate runs on the pound and the flight of capital.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
Scary
Luckily from his point of view if we've left the EU he'll be able to reintroduce exchange controls. Just like old times.
TSE will probably laugh at this, but I could see the Conservative Party crying out for Osborne to return and play a Mandelson-type role around about 2021.
I don't know what Osborne would do. He might (on balance) just stick two-fingers up, but I think he also might enjoy the contrition, and May (or her successor) crawling back to him, whilst at the same time genuinely wanting to help out stop it out of a sense of public duty.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
Labour is only likely to win the next general election if Brexit goes tits up. If that happens, markets will already be in deep despondency. Their reaction to a Labour victory will not be pretty.
Large scale nationalisation and taking back PFI contracts at less than market value, massive increases in public spending on wages, hospitals, schools, abolition of student fees and the 20 billion annual freebee for social care all add up to countless billions of borrowing or tax.
The increase to 50 top rate will raise peanuts and increasing corporation tax at the time we are Brexiting is suicidal especially with Ireland at 12.5% and Trump about to reduce to between 15 -20%.
The fact McDonnell has to openly talk about his policies crashing the pound and large scale capital flight tells it all. And the thing is, if it looks like they may be near power, the pounds crash and capital flight will already have happened
Brexit has already crashed the pound. It will crash a great deal further if it's a car crash Brexit.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
I do not remember Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan attending pro Hamas and anti Israel rallies like Corbyn
McDonnell on video talking about how their radical agenda will be like nothing seen before and outlining how he would try to mitigrate runs on the pound and the flight of capital.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
Scary
Luckily from his point of view if we've left the EU he'll be able to reintroduce exchange controls. Just like old times.
TSE will probably laugh at this, but I could see the Conservative Party crying out for Osborne to return and play a Mandelson-type role around about 2021.
I don't know what Osborne would do. He might (on balance) just stick two-fingers up, but I think he also might enjoy the contrition, and May (or her successor) crawling back to him, whilst at the same time genuinely wanting to help out stop it out of a sense of public duty.
George has moved on from politics, he’s done his bit for party and country.
Only way he’d ever come back is for a new Cameron ministry or in a WWII/Great Depression National emergency.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Nothing to do with Bretton Woods. Some of us still remember exchange controls from the 1970s, swept away, thanks goodness, by Maggie. What a liberation that was - I wonder how the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' crowd of young metropolitan high-earners will enjoy the 1970s retro experience.
Yes their usual concerns about low tax revenues and ZHC went right out the window when the ban on Uber operating in London was announced. I suspect they have a view of what a Corbyn run Britain would be like that will be wildly different from reality.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
'Large scale nationalisation and taking back PFI contracts at less than market value, massive increases in public spending on wages, hospitals, schools, abolition of student fees and the 20 billion annual freebee for social care all add up to countless billions of borrowing or tax.
The increase to 50 top rate will raise peanuts and increasing corporation tax at the time we are Brexiting is suicidal especially with Ireland at 12.5% and Trump about to reduce to between 15 -20%.
The fact McDonnell has to openly talk about his policies crashing the pound and large scale capital flight tells it all. And the thing is, if it looks like they may be near power, the pounds crash and capital flight will already have happened'
I repeat my point that the renationalisation and taxation proposals are not as radical - or left wing - as the Manifestos on which Labour fought both of the 1974 elections.Ireland has a low corporation tax rate, but rates in other EU - and non-EU - countries are much higher.Bringing back exchange controls has always been a policy option and was openly advocated by Labour in its 1987 Manifesto when that extreme neo-Marxist Roy Hattersley was the Shadow Chancellor!
On topic: The Conservative Party needs to start now on doing what it do disastrously failed to do during the election campaign: challenge the absurdities and internal contradictions of Corbyn and McDonnell on economics. Because so much has been allowed to go unchallenged, as a result of the political incompetence of Theresa May and her advisers, we have got to a very bad position where even intelligent youngsters think that a vote for Corbyn wouldn't be hugely damaging to their prospects. It's going to be a long haul refocusing the minds of voters on realities.
Sadly, I don't yet see much evidence that the Conservative leadership are really rising to this challenge. One can only hope that they will find some new George Osborne to craft the messages we need to get across, starting soon, and doing it consistently until the next GE.
That strategy worked well on the Brexit campaign didn't it?
I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Are you forgetting the vast swathe of WWC Labour voters who voted Brexit because...because...well I wouldn't dare to presume why they voted Brexit. Perhaps on account of droite de suite and they were angry because it threatened London's position in the global art market. Who knows?
And there are lots of such people in the Labour Party.
Corbyn won the 2016 local elections before Brexit and lost the 2017 local and general elections after Brexit it was anti austerity that drove his rise not Brexit
McDonnell on video talking about how their radical agenda will be like nothing seen before and outlining how he would try to mitigrate runs on the pound and the flight of capital.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
Scary
Luckily from his point of view if we've left the EU he'll be able to reintroduce exchange controls. Just like old times.
TSE will probably laugh at this, but I could see the Conservative Party crying out for Osborne to return and play a Mandelson-type role around about 2021.
I don't know what Osborne would do. He might (on balance) just stick two-fingers up, but I think he also might enjoy the contrition, and May (or her successor) crawling back to him, whilst at the same time genuinely wanting to help out stop it out of a sense of public duty.
George has moved on from politics, he’s done his bit for party and country.
Only way he’d ever come back is for a new Cameron ministry or in a WWII/Great Depression National emergency.
Item 2 of your shopping basket is out for delivery.
The restoration of Exchange Controls was in Labour's 1987 Manifesto so it would hardly be new territory at all.In the 1960s the need to support the pound under the Bretton Woods system did lead to tight control on how much currency could be taken out of the UK , but most people felt able to live with that despite the associated inconveniences.
Nothing to do with Bretton Woods. Some of us still remember exchange controls from the 1970s, swept away, thanks goodness, by Maggie. What a liberation that was - I wonder how the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' crowd of young metropolitan high-earners will enjoy the 1970s retro experience.
They will blame anyone but Corbyn. That's how it works. But Corbyn can only get into power if the Tories lose it. And the Tories will only lose it if they carry on making huge unforced errors over Brexit and other issues, such as calling completely unnecessary elections.
Good Energy have spent years building a 100% renewable electricity supply. Most of the shareholders are little guys and customers.
This could be gone within minutes of a Labour government.
Is this really what the Glastonbury crowd want? Buyers remorse awaits big time.
There seems to be a massive gulf between my interpretation of what the likes of Corbyn are saying and what "young people" think he is saying. I have no doubt that a Corbyn government would absolutely trash many of the things young people like most.
McDonnell on video talking about how their radical agenda will be like nothing seen before and outlining how he would try to mitigrate runs on the pound and the flight of capital.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
Scary
Luckily from his point of view if we've left the EU he'll be able to reintroduce exchange controls. Just like old times.
TSE will probably laugh at this, but I could see the Conservative Party crying out for Osborne to return and play a Mandelson-type role around about 2021.
I don't know what Osborne would do. He might (on balance) just stick two-fingers up, but I think he also might enjoy the contrition, and May (or her successor) crawling back to him, whilst at the same time genuinely wanting to help out stop it out of a sense of public duty.
George has moved on from politics, he’s done his bit for party and country.
Only way he’d ever come back is for a new Cameron ministry or in a WWII/Great Depression National emergency.
For now. People thought the same about Mandelson.
Osborne loves politics. And he will love even more his party being desperate for his skills.
McDonnell on video talking about how their radical agenda will be like nothing seen before and outlining how he would try to mitigrate runs on the pound and the flight of capital.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
Scary
Luckily from his point of view if we've left the EU he'll be able to reintroduce exchange controls. Just like old times.
TSE will probably laugh at this, but I could see the Conservative Party crying out for Osborne to return and play a Mandelson-type role around about 2021.
I don't know what Osborne would do. He might (on balance) just stick two-fingers up, but I think he also might enjoy the contrition, and May (or her successor) crawling back to him, whilst at the same time genuinely wanting to help out stop it out of a sense of public duty.
George has moved on from politics, he’s done his bit for party and country.
Only way he’d ever come back is for a new Cameron ministry or in a WWII/Great Depression National emergency.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Wrong in 180 degrees. We still have a Conservative Prime Minister. We still have a Labour Leader of the Opposition. You were wronger than Wrongy McWrong of Wrongsville, on the wrongest day of the year.
The restoration of Exchange Controls was in Labour's 1987 Manifesto so it would hardly be new territory at all.In the 1960s the need to support the pound under the Bretton Woods system did lead to tight control on how much currency could be taken out of the UK , but most people felt able to live with that despite the associated inconveniences.
Nothing to do with Bretton Woods. Some of us still remember exchange controls from the 1970s, swept away, thanks goodness, by Maggie. What a liberation that was - I wonder how the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' crowd of young metropolitan high-earners will enjoy the 1970s retro experience.
H L Mencken: "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
The restoration of Exchange Controls was in Labour's 1987 Manifesto so it would hardly be new territory at all.In the 1960s the need to support the pound under the Bretton Woods system did lead to tight control on how much currency could be taken out of the UK , but most people felt able to live with that despite the associated inconveniences.
Nothing to do with Bretton Woods. Some of us still remember exchange controls from the 1970s, swept away, thanks goodness, by Maggie. What a liberation that was - I wonder how the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' crowd of young metropolitan high-earners will enjoy the 1970s retro experience.
The restrictions on foreign currency imposed in the 1960s owed a great deal to our Balance of Payments problem and the need to prop up the pound as required under the Bretton Woods system. The US broke up the latter in the early 1970s and in June 1972 the Heath Govt allowed the pound to float.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Corbyn was elected as leader way before the Referendum, back in 2015, and there are signs in other Anglosphere countries (New Zealand, USA, and Canada) of the appeal of the populist Left, so I certainly don't agree Brexit was the cause.
It probably did get him a few extra votes, though, and Brexit will (undoubtedly) give him more latitude to do more damage.
Good Energy have spent years building a 100% renewable electricity supply. Most of the shareholders are little guys and customers.
This could be gone within minutes of a Labour government.
Is this really what the Glastonbury crowd want? Buyers remorse awaits big time.
There seems to be a massive gulf between my interpretation of what the likes of Corbyn are saying and what "young people" think he is saying. I have no doubt that a Corbyn government would absolutely trash many of the things young people like most.
I don't believe it Charlotte!! I'm suppose to be flying to Barcelona for the weekend for a city break with Oliver, and I can only get €100 out at the airport.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Wrong in 180 degrees. We still have a Conservative Prime Minister. We still have a Labour Leader of the Opposition. You were wronger than Wrongy McWrong of Wrongsville, on the wrongest day of the year.
As with Brexit.
Brexit, with its sunny uplands and no downsides, paved the way for Cake And Eat It politics. The Labour party's leadership learned an important lesson from a campaign they played no part in: when people feel alienated and their living standards are slipping, if you tell them what they want to hear, they will vote for you; cry Project Fear and promise the world, and you have every chance of success.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Wrong in 180 degrees. We still have a Conservative Prime Minister. We still have a Labour Leader of the Opposition. You were wronger than Wrongy McWrong of Wrongsville, on the wrongest day of the year.
As with Brexit.
Brexit, with its sunny uplands and no downsides, paved the way for Cake And Eat It politics. The Labour party's leadership learned an important lesson from a campaign they played no part in: when people feel alienated and their living standards are slipping, if you tell them what they want to hear, they will vote for you; cry Project Fear and promise the world, and you have every chance of success.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Brexit has given a boost to Corbyn's vote, but it's not the cause of his rise.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
I do not remember Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan attending pro Hamas and anti Israel rallies like Corbyn
Would be quite an achievement had they done so. Hamas was founded in 1987.
Good Energy have spent years building a 100% renewable electricity supply. Most of the shareholders are little guys and customers.
This could be gone within minutes of a Labour government.
Is this really what the Glastonbury crowd want? Buyers remorse awaits big time.
There seems to be a massive gulf between my interpretation of what the likes of Corbyn are saying and what "young people" think he is saying. I have no doubt that a Corbyn government would absolutely trash many of the things young people like most.
I don't believe it Charlotte!! I'm suppose to be flying to Barcelona for the weekend for a city break with Oliver, and I can only get €100 out at the airport.
Into the lions den I dont think I'd go to Barcelona this weekendyou may find yourself in the middle of a riot
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Wrong in 180 degrees. We still have a Conservative Prime Minister. We still have a Labour Leader of the Opposition. You were wronger than Wrongy McWrong of Wrongsville, on the wrongest day of the year.
As with Brexit.
Brexit, with its sunny uplands and no downsides, paved the way for Cake And Eat It politics. The Labour party's leadership learned an important lesson from a campaign they played no part in: when people feel alienated and their living standards are slipping, if you tell them what they want to hear, they will vote for you; cry Project Fear and promise the world, and you have every chance of success.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Brexit has given a boost to Corbyn's vote, but it's not the cause of his rise.
I agree. My point is that the referendum campaign showed that you could win by promising the world and crying Project Fear when challenged. Populism is the name of the game now.
Good Energy have spent years building a 100% renewable electricity supply. Most of the shareholders are little guys and customers.
This could be gone within minutes of a Labour government.
Is this really what the Glastonbury crowd want? Buyers remorse awaits big time.
There seems to be a massive gulf between my interpretation of what the likes of Corbyn are saying and what "young people" think he is saying. I have no doubt that a Corbyn government would absolutely trash many of the things young people like most.
I don't believe it Charlotte!! I'm suppose to be flying to Barcelona for the weekend for a city break with Oliver, and I can only get €100 out at the airport.
That message sent using Facebook Messenger on their iPhone, whilst streaming Spotify, the holiday booked using Kayak, and they plan to user Uber at the airport when they arrive.
The very things young people love most are created by businesses that look for low regulation, low taxes, and an ease of raising capital. Things that make a country an attractive place to invest, and things that will cease to be if Corbyn become PM.
< I am doubtful even the worst excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell could even begin to provoke the amount of damage on the country as the Tory wreckers have done with Brexit.
Exactly.
I am a long-standing Labour moderate, I have been in the party since the 1970s and remember well the battles against the left the last time round in the 80s and early 90s. I have grave doubts about Corbyn and McDonnell in policy terms and also about their competence.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
I do not remember Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan attending pro Hamas and anti Israel rallies like Corbyn
Would be quite an achievement had they done so. Hamas was founded in 1987.
Black September and other Palestinian terrorist groups were certainly around then
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Wrong in 180 degrees. We still have a Conservative Prime Minister. We still have a Labour Leader of the Opposition. You were wronger than Wrongy McWrong of Wrongsville, on the wrongest day of the year.
As with Brexit.
Brexit, with its sunny uplands and no downsides, paved the way for Cake And Eat It politics. The Labour party's leadership learned an important lesson from a campaign they played no part in: when people feel alienated and their living standards are slipping, if you tell them what they want to hear, they will vote for you; cry Project Fear and promise the world, and you have every chance of success.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Brexit has given a boost to Corbyn's vote, but it's not the cause of his rise.
It's not the cause of his rise, but it's the reason why the Conservatives are fairly powerless to oppose it. When the Tories lose their minds over Europe, they leave the field clear for Labour. It was the same in the 90s. Only a united pro-European Tory party can deliver stable centre-right government.
Good Energy have spent years building a 100% renewable electricity supply. Most of the shareholders are little guys and customers.
This could be gone within minutes of a Labour government.
Is this really what the Glastonbury crowd want? Buyers remorse awaits big time.
There seems to be a massive gulf between my interpretation of what the likes of Corbyn are saying and what "young people" think he is saying. I have no doubt that a Corbyn government would absolutely trash many of the things young people like most.
I don't believe it Charlotte!! I'm suppose to be flying to Barcelona for the weekend for a city break with Oliver, and I can only get €100 out at the airport.
That message sent using Facebook Messenger on their iPhone, whilst streaming Spotify, the holiday booked using Kayak, and they plan to user Uber at the airport when they arrive.
The very things young people love most are created by businesses that look for low regulation, low taxes, and an ease of raising capital. Things that make a country an attractive place to invest, and things that will cease to be if Corbyn become PM.
McDonnell on video talking about how their radical agenda will be like nothing seen before and outlining how he would try to mitigrate runs on the pound and the flight of capital.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
Scary
Luckily from his point of view if we've left the EU he'll be able to reintroduce exchange controls. Just like old times.
TSE will probably laugh at this, but I could see the Conservative Party crying out for Osborne to return and play a Mandelson-type role around about 2021.
I don't know what Osborne would do. He might (on balance) just stick two-fingers up, but I think he also might enjoy the contrition, and May (or her successor) crawling back to him, whilst at the same time genuinely wanting to help out stop it out of a sense of public duty.
George has moved on from politics, he’s done his bit for party and country.
Only way he’d ever come back is for a new Cameron ministry or in a WWII/Great Depression National emergency.
For now. People thought the same about Mandelson.
Osborne loves politics. And he will love even more his party being desperate for his skills.
So I rule nothing out.
Mentioning Mandelson, the same route really ought to be open to George. Sack Boris, stick Osborne in the Lords and make him Foreign Secretary.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Wrong in 180 degrees. We still have a Conservative Prime Minister. We still have a Labour Leader of the Opposition. You were wronger than Wrongy McWrong of Wrongsville, on the wrongest day of the year.
As with Brexit.
Brexit, with its sunny uplands and no downsides, paved the way for Cake And Eat It politics. The Labour party's leadership learned an important lesson from a campaign they played no part in: when people feel alienated and their living standards are slipping, if you tell them what they want to hear, they will vote for you; cry Project Fear and promise the world, and you have every chance of success.
Corbyn is the same beneficiary of anti austerity populism as Bernie Sanders, Tsipras, Melenchon, Jacinda Ardern, Die Linke and Podemos. Brexit was the same beneficiary of anti immigration populism as Trump, Le Pen, Pauline Hanson, the AdD and Wilders. Brexit did not cause Corbyn anti austerity did
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Wrong in 180 degrees. We still have a Conservative Prime Minister. We still have a Labour Leader of the Opposition. You were wronger than Wrongy McWrong of Wrongsville, on the wrongest day of the year.
As with Brexit.
Brexit, with its sunny uplands and no downsides, paved the way for Cake And Eat It politics. The Labour party's leadership learned an important lesson from a campaign they played no part in: when people feel alienated and their living standards are slipping, if you tell them what they want to hear, they will vote for you; cry Project Fear and promise the world, and you have every chance of success.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Brexit has given a boost to Corbyn's vote, but it's not the cause of his rise.
It's not the cause of his rise, but it's the reason why the Conservatives are fairly powerless to oppose it. When the Tories lose their minds over Europe, they leave the field clear for Labour. It was the same in the 90s. Only a united pro-European Tory party can deliver stable centre-right government.
The Tories have long since given up on the centre ground. Like Labour, they are moving to their extreme. The hole in the middle is huge.
Maybe, but the intention of Brexit is not to stifle such things. On the other hand with McDonnell and Corbyn you get the strong impression that they fundamentally oppose private enterprise.
Tories not as good on the economy as they think they are. I remember when only the Tories could save our AAA rating. Oh dear.
After 2007 nothing could save our AAA rating. The country is deep in the brown stuff and it will take a generation to recover from that man's incompetence.
Or several, if Corbyn gets in.
People tried to warn conservatives like you where this was heading.
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Er.. there was no Corbyn majority in the quick general election after winning the referendum. So you were wrong - as ever.
Wrong only in degree. In fact I wish I'd stuck to my guns because when the election was first called I got carried away with thinking it would be a Tory landslide.
Wrong in 180 degrees. We still have a Conservative Prime Minister. We still have a Labour Leader of the Opposition. You were wronger than Wrongy McWrong of Wrongsville, on the wrongest day of the year.
As with Brexit.
Brexit, with its sunny uplands and no downsides, paved the way for Cake And Eat It politics. The Labour party's leadership learned an important lesson from a campaign they played no part in: when people feel alienated and their living standards are slipping, if you tell them what they want to hear, they will vote for you; cry Project Fear and promise the world, and you have every chance of success.
Corbyn is the same beneficiary of anti austerity populism as Bernie Sanders, Tsipras, Melenchon, Jacinda Ardern, Die Linke and Podemos. Brexit was the same beneficiary of anti immigration populism as Trump, Le Pen, Pauline Hanson, the AdD and Wilders. Brexit did not cause Corbyn anti austerity did
I know. Anti-immigration populism is also a consequence of stagnating and falling living standards. It is not a solution to them, of course.
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
Labour Govt., Day One: complete ban on transfer of capital out of the UK. Back to taking a tenner a day spending money on holiday.
Day Two: the start of the biggest buyer's remorse in the history of democracy.
Can I Godwin that one? Can I? Pleeease.
The restoration of Exchange Controls was in Labour's 1987 Manifesto so it would hardly be new territory at all.In the 1960s the need to support the pound under the Bretton Woods system did lead to tight control on how much currency could be taken out of the UK , but most people felt able to live with that despite the associated inconveniences.
We're in a very different world from 1987 now though. I'm not sure how practical it would even be to impose exchange controls at short notice. How would if affect the use of debit and credit cards, for example - things which people take absolutely for granted now but which were all but unusable abroad (if you had them at all) thirty years ago?
The Tories have long since given up on the centre ground. Like Labour, they are moving to their extreme. The hole in the middle is huge.
see, I'd argue that the essential - fundamental - weakness of the 2017 Tory campaign was their attempts to be more central and more redistributive - never going to beat Moonbat Labour on that front and then got skewered by misrepresentation.
Having the turning circle of Queen Mary II compounded the issue but remember where the breaks came off.
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
Labour Govt., Day One: complete ban on transfer of capital out of the UK. Back to taking a tenner a day spending money on holiday.
Day Two: the start of the biggest buyer's remorse in the history of democracy.
Can I Godwin that one? Can I? Pleeease.
The restoration of Exchange Controls was in Labour's 1987 Manifesto so it would hardly be new territory at all.In the 1960s the need to support the pound under the Bretton Woods system did lead to tight control on how much currency could be taken out of the UK , but most people felt able to live with that despite the associated inconveniences.
We're in a very different world from 1987 now though. I'm not sure how practical it would even be to impose exchange controls at short notice. How would if affect the use of debit and credit cards, for example - things which people take absolutely for granted now but which were all but unusable abroad (if you had them at all) thirty years ago?
The 20th September is hardly old and it is the latest Survation poll
The fieldwork commenced on 15th September. Survation also had a poll in the last Mail on Sunday which had figures of Lab 42 Con 38 - LD 8. Not sure of the fieldwork dates though.
Comments
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-24/merkel-s-lackluster-win-is-good-for-germany
Merkel doesn't get to rest on her laurels. Instead, she gets a chance to prove herself against more clearly defined challenges than she has ever faced.
By this from Labour today; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41393021
He [Corbyn] has told you [what his Brexit policy is].
He is a hard Brexiter who wants the UK out of the single market.
He told you that on 24/06/16 when he called for Art 50 to the triggered immediately.
He told you that when he promised unequivocal support for May triggering Art 50.
He told you that when he sabotaged his own paroles amendments on the single market and citizens rights.
He told you that when he whipped his party to defeat amendments on the single market.
He told you that when he sacked shadow ministers for voting for the single market amendments.
He told you that in the Labour manifesto, where the end to free movement was promised.
He told you that in interviews yesterday when he (dishonestly or ignorantly) said that the single market would stop Labour implementing its policies.
He told you that when he proposed a Brexit policy that was functionaly identical to the Tories hard Brexit.
Don't forget his lifelong hatred of the EU, which he regards as a capitalist club.
What more evidence do you need?
Seriously?
I don't think the 'dishonestly or ignorantly' bit is right, but the rest is spot on. Pro-EU Labour moderates are being conned, or, to be more accurate, are conning themselves, because Corbyn and McDonnell haven't hidden their views.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/26/labour-brexit-corbyn-momentum-eurosceptic-bennite
As a Labour supporter I would say that Corbyn's defeat is essential for Labour to survive as a political force. A Corbyn government would be such a catastrophe that it would toxify Labour for decades.
McD seems to be pretty much accepting they'll be a run on the pound.
You are right to imply India probably would have ditched the King-Emperor and Maharajas eventually, anyway, but probably not until the 1950s/1960s. The path would have been smoother and more peaceful, and we'd have had an even closer relationship with them today.
Ireland is very hard to call. But I think it might have been possible to prevent full Republicanism and a split in the island of Ireland, provided the right constitutional settlement had been devised, but the 1916 uprising, the British response, and the Irish War of 1920-1921 put an end to that for good.
The fact he is openly admitting this in a fringe meeting demonstrates just how far he wants to take UK down the Venezeula route.
Scary
I hope the media (such as Peston) ask more difficult questions than "Will you keep your allotment?" next time.
Brexit is a renegotiation of a more detached political and economic relationship with our neighbours; it has a number of possible outcomes, and risks defaulting to "zero" due to extremists on both sides, but Corbyn's programme is crack-suicide squad for the entire British economy.
I'm not convinced the window closed on India in 1919 - though that was clearly one opportunity. The India Act was putting the pieces in place for the move to Responsible Government in the mid-1930s but WWII overtook its implementation.
Having committed to buying back the PFI deals on the nation's credit card yesterday (on top of the earlier policies and the likely withdrawal of overseas investment in e.g. London property), that seems a fair expectation.
It seems to me that from 1997, the UK government had the best part of a decade when it could have pursued more or less any policy it chose in respect of Europe and/or the euro.
Likewise they were singularly unecumbered by any economic fallout of the Black Wednesday embarrassment.
Those events certainly had deep repercussions for the Tories, but as for limiting Blair's freedom of action, I don't buy it.
E.g. me on June 5th 2016:
http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1083093/#Comment_1083093
The Brexit campaign, with its anti-politics demagoguery, is laying the ground for an unexpected Corbyn majority if they're hubristic enough to go for a quick general election after winning the referendum.
Day Two: the start of the biggest buyer's remorse in the history of democracy.
However, this is the first time I have witnessed anything like this and it is possible Corbyn, McDonnell et al have put too much faith in how much the voting public will endorse them.
In the meantime, the Catalans have a high level of autonomy and, with a change of government in Madrid, the prospect of more. That does not look like India under British rule. Ireland may be different, but it is arguably the British response to the Easter Rising that led to Irish independence. The British reacted just as the separatists wished them to. In the same way, the Partido Popular government in Madrid is doing exactly as the Catalan separatists want now. As has been the case for the last 10 years, the PP is the best friend the Barcelona government has.
https://twitter.com/thespainreport/status/912637270016086016
It will be ironic that the Tories will achieve Brexit but it will be it will be Corbyn that shapes what type of Brexit we have.
Did you see that the Strolls are seemingly thwarting the chance of Kubica getting a seat at Williams ?
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/di-resta-s-f1-return-hopes
Not terrifically sporting, perhaps ?
If Labour is the largest party, it still has to get its programme past Lib.Dems, Greens, Plaid, SNP ... and the House of Lords. The Lords have a reasonable record of trying to block mad legislation.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/09/why-labour-wise-use-war-game-planning-government
Up until then the INC, and Ghandi, had been agitating for more respect, equality between the races, and internal self-governance, but were broadly loyal to the Empire.
That changed into the 1920s, for good.
McD has let the cat out of bag. They are wargaming how to implement hard left socialism. The manifesto is a total ruse in my opinion. Within months of gaining power they will be saying, we have looked at the books and reviewed the situation and... we need to go much further in our socialist policies comrades.
I agree with that. Labour is not as far to the left today as it was back in 1974 - never mind 1983.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
Large scale nationalisation and taking back PFI contracts at less than market value, massive increases in public spending on wages, hospitals, schools, abolition of student fees and the 20 billion annual freebee for social care all add up to countless billions of borrowing or tax.
The increase to 50 top rate will raise peanuts and increasing corporation tax at the time we are Brexiting is suicidal especially with Ireland at 12.5% and Trump about to reduce to between 15 -20%.
The fact McDonnell has to openly talk about his policies crashing the pound and large scale capital flight tells it all. And the thing is, if it looks like they may be near power, the pounds crash and capital flight will already have happened
The fear of revolution was very strong, both domestically and overseas, and this was at a time when capital punishment was widely accepted, and British soldiers were (legally) shot for desertion.
He misses the last two matches, reportedly with a damaged hand.
Alex Hales also out of the matches to help the rozzers with their investigations.
If Stokes misses The Ashes....
Could this be happening? We leave EU, just as we find we need its protection from a hard left, anti-democratic leadership cult.
Condemning Corbyn's economic policies as extreme will be m no more effective for the Tories than condemning his IRA links proved at the general election.
I don't know what Osborne would do. He might (on balance) just stick two-fingers up, but I think he also might enjoy the contrition, and May (or her successor) crawling back to him, whilst at the same time genuinely wanting to help out stop it out of a sense of public duty.
Only way he’d ever come back is for a new Cameron ministry or in a WWII/Great Depression National emergency.
With the greatest of respect they are putting forward the most hard left marxist style programme for government I have ever seen, only equalled by Hatton when Kinnock won that battle.
I am sorry but I disagree. What Labour is proposing would still leave the public sector significantly smaller than was the case in 1974. Increasing the top rate of Income Tax to 50% is a very modest commitment - well below the 60% level considered acceptable by Thatcher until 1988. There are no proposals to take over the Top 100 companies such as Tony Benn mooted before the 1974 elections. In what way is Labour policy more left wing today than in the early to mid 1970s?
'Large scale nationalisation and taking back PFI contracts at less than market value, massive increases in public spending on wages, hospitals, schools, abolition of student fees and the 20 billion annual freebee for social care all add up to countless billions of borrowing or tax.
The increase to 50 top rate will raise peanuts and increasing corporation tax at the time we are Brexiting is suicidal especially with Ireland at 12.5% and Trump about to reduce to between 15 -20%.
The fact McDonnell has to openly talk about his policies crashing the pound and large scale capital flight tells it all. And the thing is, if it looks like they may be near power, the pounds crash and capital flight will already have happened'
I repeat my point that the renationalisation and taxation proposals are not as radical - or left wing - as the Manifestos on which Labour fought both of the 1974 elections.Ireland has a low corporation tax rate, but rates in other EU - and non-EU - countries are much higher.Bringing back exchange controls has always been a policy option and was openly advocated by Labour in its 1987 Manifesto when that extreme neo-Marxist Roy Hattersley was the Shadow Chancellor!
This could be gone within minutes of a Labour government.
Is this really what the Glastonbury crowd want? Buyers remorse awaits big time.
Osborne loves politics. And he will love even more his party being desperate for his skills.
So I rule nothing out.
As with Brexit.
It probably did get him a few extra votes, though, and Brexit will (undoubtedly) give him more latitude to do more damage.
Brexit has given a boost to Corbyn's vote, but it's not the cause of his rise.
Hamas was founded in 1987.
The very things young people love most are created by businesses that look for low regulation, low taxes, and an ease of raising capital. Things that make a country an attractive place to invest, and things that will cease to be if Corbyn become PM.
That gave Labour a 5% lead.
Having the turning circle of Queen Mary II compounded the issue but remember where the breaks came off.