It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
Come off it, it's got absolute b-all to do with wealth and privilege. You could just as well (or to be more precise, just as irrationally) accuse many of those such as Nick Clegg and David Cameron who campaigned for Remain as being shielded from the consequences by their wealth and privilege - which is much more than DD's however you measure it.
Here's a thought: maybe DD honestly and reasonably believes that leaving the EU is good for the whole country. Have you considered this extraordinary possibility, even if you think he is wrong?
I am sure he believes it. As I say, he is intellectually lazy.
More or less intellectually lazy than someone that sees all possible faults in Leavers and desperately avoids criticising Remainers? Your glasshouse is exceedingly brittle.
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
Here's a thought: maybe DD honestly and reasonably believes that leaving the EU is good for the whole country. Have you considered this extraordinary possibility, even if you think he is wrong?
As so often, lefties view righties as bad people righties view lefties as people with bad ideas...
I am not sure Jeremy Corbyn could be classed a rightie.
Launched a couple of hours ago, on the back of the Victoria Derbyshire programme yesterday and a big Parliament Square rally with 5 Conservative MPs last week, which I was involved in organising (obviously with my non-partisan hat). Gove has expressed sympathy so it may actually happen - most farmers are not really keen on shipping their animals overseas so there isn't a huge lobby on the other side.
You think a Senior Govt Minister is poor and unprivileged?
No, but he hardly comes from a background of 'wealth and privilege', unlike Jeremy Corbyn for example. Presumably Southam would rule out Sir Keir Starmer as well, given his career.
Only Remainers could claim that someone who grew up with a single mum in a council house is privileged.
You think a Senior Govt Minister is poor and unprivileged?
No, but he hardly comes from a background of 'wealth and privilege', unlike Jeremy Corbyn for example. Presumably Southam would rule out Sir Keir Starmer as well, given his career.
Only Remainers could claim that someone who grew up with a single mum in a council house is privileged.
Only Leavers focus on the past, not the present.
It is Remainers that push forward a vision from the 1950s to address the problems of the 1930s. Leavers are more focused on emerging markets that are already out competing the bloated welfare states of the West.
But that doesn't change the idiocy of claiming a man that grew up in dirt poverty, went through military training and achieved high ministerial office is stupid and lazy.
The Minister for Winging It is being found out. David Davis had years to learn how the EU works, to understand how complex leaving would be and to research what dynamics drive international trade agreements. But he could not be bothered. He found it much more agreeable to wave Union Jacks and to talk airily about the tyranny of Brussels.
What seems to unite the right-wing Brexit elite is a complete aversion to detail, hard work and preparation. The UK will pay the price economically and in terms of our global standing. If you give power to plastic patriots shielded from real life by wealth and privilege that's what happens.
I'm confused now. You're saying that all Brexiteers are wealthy and privileged, while @williamglenn says we're all stupid and poor?
Could it maybe be that people of all backgrounds voted were split between both sides last year and that while there are some trends, drawing a crude caricature of supporters is a dumb idea?
A point well made.
Brexiteers can't simultaneously be privileged folks who are shielded from the consequences from their votes, and at the same time thick and poor.
By the way you seem to know what you're talking about, in your opinion how are the negotiations with the EU are going? What do you think the end result will be?
I can't claim any special insight beyond what has been in the media. Based on that, I think the signals are mixed; the biggest uncertainty isn't actually the UK end, but whether the EU are interested in a deal.
The end result is quite uncertain IMO. I think there are broadly three possible outcomes:
1. We agree a deal whereby we remain effectively in the single market and customs union (but probably not formally so) for 2-3 years during which time we pay something similar to what we pay at the moment, followed by a trade deal covering goods but probably not services. There would be some smallish on-going payments for participation in EU programmes, and we'd be quite tied up in EU regulations indefinitely. Call this the 'minimum disruption' scenario. If it happens, short-term economic damage will be small.
2. We agree amicably to part to WTO terms. That would involve some bribe (possibly quite a large bribe) to the EU for their cooperation in smoothing over the transition, in all sorts of nitty-gritty ways such as air travel. Call this the 'controlled WTO' scenario. Economic damage would be substantial, but not disastrous except for a few specific industries, such as car manufacturing.
3. Worst case, we crash out in acrimony, don't pay them a bean, and they are extremely unhelpful in the transition. Economic damage would be huge for us and quite large for them (which in turn doesn't help us, of course); in this scenario, expect a financial crash comparable to 2008/9. Call this the 'chaotic crash-out' scenario.
Off the top of my head, putting probabilities to them, I'd guess something like:
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
This is the Nick Clegg that claimed the European Army now being pushed forwards by Juncker was a figment of eurosceptic's imagination? The one that claimed there would be a recession when we left? The one that pushed EU integration, opposed a democratic referendum and has the nerve to call himself a liberal democrat? Plenty of intellectual laziness there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
Funnily enough, Europhiles are not heavily represented in the current government - the one that is utterly dysfunctional and is making a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations. This is a mess entirely made by right wing Brexiteers who never bothered to engage with reality. They own it entirely.
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
This is the Nick Clegg that claimed the European Army now being pushed forwards by Juncker was a figment of eurosceptic's imagination? The one that claimed there would be a recession when we left? The one that pushed EU integration, opposed a democratic referendum and has the nerve to call himself a liberal democrat? Plenty of intellectual laziness there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
I'm happy to criticise Clegg. I think his style of dissembling and not being straight with people has contributed greatly to ending up in this mess. We need more pro-Europeans like Clarke who are not afraid of a genuine argument.
Hear hear. Clarke is the only MP (AFAIK) who has dared to question whether a referendum decision should always be sacrosanct and criticism of it tantamount to treason.
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
This is the Nick Clegg that claimed the European Army now being pushed forwards by Juncker was a figment of eurosceptic's imagination? The one that claimed there would be a recession when we left? The one that pushed EU integration, opposed a democratic referendum and has the nerve to call himself a liberal democrat? Plenty of intellectual laziness there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
I'm happy to criticise Clegg. I think his style of dissembling and not being straight with people has contributed greatly to ending up in this mess. We need more pro-Europeans like Clarke who are not afraid of a genuine argument.
What about Keir Starmer, who said Labour would support leaving the single market before u-turning? Even now he won't say whether Labour wants us there long term. How is that not dissembling?
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
This is the Nick Clegg that claimed the European Army now being pushed forwards by Juncker was a figment of eurosceptic's imagination? The one that claimed there would be a recession when we left? The one that pushed EU integration, opposed a democratic referendum and has the nerve to call himself a liberal democrat? Plenty of intellectual laziness there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
Funnily enough, Europhiles are not heavily represented in the current government - the one that is utterly dysfunctional and is making a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations. This is a mess entirely made by right wing Brexiteers who never bothered to engage with reality. They own it entirely.
There you go again. Avoiding the arguments on Clegg because dealing with them would force you to confront your own inconsistencies. You just withdraw to to your anti-Brexit comfort blanket.
You think a Senior Govt Minister is poor and unprivileged?
No, but he hardly comes from a background of 'wealth and privilege', unlike Jeremy Corbyn for example. Presumably Southam would rule out Sir Keir Starmer as well, given his career.
Only Remainers could claim that someone who grew up with a single mum in a council house is privileged.
Only Leavers focus on the past, not the present.
It is Remainers that push forward a vision from the 1950s to address the problems of the 1930s. Leavers are more focused on emerging markets that are already out competing the bloated welfare states of the West.
But that doesn't change the idiocy of claiming a man that grew up in dirt poverty, went through military training and achieved high ministerial office is stupid and lazy.
There's a lot to be said for being in the right places at the right times. What do you call a government minister who thought we could do individual FTAs with Germany, France and Italy?
The Minister for Winging It is being found out. David Davis had years to learn how the EU works, to understand how complex leaving would be and to research what dynamics drive international trade agreements. But he could not be bothered. He found it much more agreeable to wave Union Jacks and to talk airily about the tyranny of Brussels.
What seems to unite the right-wing Brexit elite is a complete aversion to detail, hard work and preparation. The UK will pay the price economically and in terms of our global standing. If you give power to plastic patriots shielded from real life by wealth and privilege that's what happens.
I'm confused now. You're saying that all Brexiteers are wealthy and privileged, while @williamglenn says we're all stupid and poor?
Could it maybe be that people of all backgrounds voted were split between both sides last year and that while there are some trends, drawing a crude caricature of supporters is a dumb idea?
A point well made.
Brexiteers can't simultaneously be privileged folks who are shielded from the consequences from their votes, and at the same time thick and poor.
A distinction must be made between the Brexit Elite - a coterie of moneyed posh boys who loathe the dynamism and egalitarianism that EU membership brings and long for a return to the Ealing Britain of the 1950s when they were in charge - and the poor, wretched masses they duped into voting for their own doom.
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
This is the Nick Clegg that claimed the European Army now being pushed forwards by Juncker was a figment of eurosceptic's imagination? The one that claimed there would be a recession when we left? The one that pushed EU integration, opposed a democratic referendum and has the nerve to call himself a liberal democrat? Plenty of intellectual laziness there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
Funnily enough, Europhiles are not heavily represented in the current government - the one that is utterly dysfunctional and is making a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations. This is a mess entirely made by right wing Brexiteers who never bothered to engage with reality. They own it entirely.
There you go again. Avoiding the arguments on Clegg because dealing with them would force you to confront your own inconsistencies. You just withdraw to to your anti-Brexit comfort blanket.
INTELLECTUALLY LAZY.
Why should I criticise Clegg for the total mess Brexiteers are making of Brexit? He is entirely irrelevant to the process.
You think a Senior Govt Minister is poor and unprivileged?
No, but he hardly comes from a background of 'wealth and privilege', unlike Jeremy Corbyn for example. Presumably Southam would rule out Sir Keir Starmer as well, given his career.
Only Remainers could claim that someone who grew up with a single mum in a council house is privileged.
Only Leavers focus on the past, not the present.
It is Remainers that push forward a vision from the 1950s to address the problems of the 1930s. Leavers are more focused on emerging markets that are already out competing the bloated welfare states of the West.
But that doesn't change the idiocy of claiming a man that grew up in dirt poverty, went through military training and achieved high ministerial office is stupid and lazy.
There's a lot to be said for being in the right places at the right times. What do you call a government minister who thought we could do individual FTAs with Germany, France and Italy?
Non existent because it didn't happen. Apparently you struggle with the concept of words having multiple meanings.
You think a Senior Govt Minister is poor and unprivileged?
No, but he hardly comes from a background of 'wealth and privilege', unlike Jeremy Corbyn for example. Presumably Southam would rule out Sir Keir Starmer as well, given his career.
Only Remainers could claim that someone who grew up with a single mum in a council house is privileged.
Only Leavers focus on the past, not the present.
It is Remainers that push forward a vision from the 1950s to address the problems of the 1930s. Leavers are more focused on emerging markets that are already out competing the bloated welfare states of the West.
But that doesn't change the idiocy of claiming a man that grew up in dirt poverty, went through military training and achieved high ministerial office is stupid and lazy.
There's a lot to be said for being in the right places at the right times. What do you call a government minister who thought we could do individual FTAs with Germany, France and Italy?
Non existent because it didn't happen. Apparently you struggle with the concept of words having multiple meanings.
So when he said we'd do a deal with Germany he didn't mean it? I see :-D
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
This is the Nick Clegg that claimed the European Army now being pushed forwards by Juncker was a figment of eurosceptic's imagination? The one that claimed there would be a recession when we left? The one that pushed EU integration, opposed a democratic referendum and has the nerve to call himself a liberal democrat? Plenty of intellectual laziness there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
Funnily enough, Europhiles are not heavily represented in the current government - the one that is utterly dysfunctional and is making a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations. This is a mess entirely made by right wing Brexiteers who never bothered to engage with reality. They own it entirely.
There you go again. Avoiding the arguments on Clegg because dealing with them would force you to confront your own inconsistencies. You just withdraw to to your anti-Brexit comfort blanket.
INTELLECTUALLY LAZY.
Why should I criticise Clegg for the total mess Brexiteers are making of Brexit? He is entirely irrelevant to the process.
Because the only criticism we should ever give to anyone should be Brexiteers over Brexit? Why don't you just summon up the mild intellectual work needed to apply to the criticisms you dish out to your own side? It would pull back a small amount of the credibility you've lost by claiming a man got from a council estate to a top five role in government by sheer luck.
You think a Senior Govt Minister is poor and unprivileged?
No, but he hardly comes from a background of 'wealth and privilege', unlike Jeremy Corbyn for example. Presumably Southam would rule out Sir Keir Starmer as well, given his career.
Only Remainers could claim that someone who grew up with a single mum in a council house is privileged.
Only Leavers focus on the past, not the present.
It is Remainers that push forward a vision from the 1950s to address the problems of the 1930s. Leavers are more focused on emerging markets that are already out competing the bloated welfare states of the West.
But that doesn't change the idiocy of claiming a man that grew up in dirt poverty, went through military training and achieved high ministerial office is stupid and lazy.
There's a lot to be said for being in the right places at the right times. What do you call a government minister who thought we could do individual FTAs with Germany, France and Italy?
Non existent because it didn't happen. Apparently you struggle with the concept of words having multiple meanings.
So when he said we'd do a deal with Germany he didn't mean it? I see :-D
No when he said we'd do a deal with Germany, that didn't refer to an FTA. It referred to an agreement in what was in their interest to get their support for an overall EU FTA. Did you even bother reading my second sentence?
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
This is the Nick Cleggss there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
Funnily enough, Europhiles are not heavily represented in the current government - the one that is utterly dysfunctional and is making a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations. This is a mess entirely made by right wing Brexiteers who never bothered to engage with reality. They own it entirely.
There you go again. Avoiding the arguments on Clegg because dealing with them would force you to confront your own inconsistencies. You just withdraw to to your anti-Brexit comfort blanket.
INTELLECTUALLY LAZY.
Why should I criticise Clegg for the total mess Brexiteers are making of Brexit? He is entirely irrelevant to the process.
Because the only criticism we should ever give to anyone should be Brexiteers over Brexit? Why don't you just summon up the mild intellectual work needed to apply to the criticisms you dish out to your own side? It would pull back a small amount of the credibility you've lost by claiming a man got from a council estate to a top five role in government by sheer luck.
When talking about the complete mess the government is making of Brexit I am unlikely to criticise Nick Clegg, it is true. That's because he is entirely irrelevant. If you cannot see that, it's you who has the problem, not me. Yes, Davis has got very lucky. His abilities do not match his responsibilities.
The problem with political rhetoric - of whichever persuasion - is that it always gets found out when its disconnected from reality. I know that the hardcore Brexiteers believe that Europe will/must cave into our demands because we're BRITAIN and BMW still want to sell us cars. And thats nice for them. In practice BMW also want to sell cars to everywhere else, and stop China importing rip-off competitors, and that means upholding the rules of the market. Which means a hard external EU border. Which means full customs checks.
I could stomach a WTO Brexit if we were planning for it. But our new customs computer gets switched on just 6 weeks before we leave, has a maximum capacity 40% below what we'd need, and we're 5 years away from a system that could do the job in a WTO environment. I feel like Ed Harris in Apollo 13 pointing to the two separate crosses on the blackboard saying "spacecraft runs out of air there, can't re-enter until here, how do we get from there to here?" And rhetoric won't cover the gap. The EU won't/can't roll over. We either stay in the single market or we set up for a hard border. And we don't have time to do the latter...
And THIS is why a mass sacking is needed. I get the sense that the likes of BoJo are in utter denial about the politics and wilfully ignorant of the practicalities. I am not interested in the political blame game or even who is the government if indulging in these means that we cripple this country economically and leave the door open to the risk of food riots.
And yes, I am saying food riots. Although the various players are trying to tread carefully as its politically sensitive we need to ask the experts. Ask HMRC about their customs computer/infrastructure/staff. Ask food manufacturers about supply. Ask supermarkets, wholesalers, farmers about where our food comes from. Ask manufacturers of any size about their plans for Q2 2019 onwards. Industry is shitting itself at what happens as this goes wrong. And every week that goes by where the political divisions widen and the chance of any practical deal narrow is it going wrong.
A political extinction level event for any politician and party associated with it. Sane Tories need to get rid of these clowns now. Whilst there is still time.
I see the ranting Europhobes are out in force, angry that their heroes are out of their depth and drowning. Screaming about Remain supporters might be cathartic but doesn't make the progress of Brexit any more impressive.
You think a Senior Govt Minister is poor and unprivileged?
No, but he hardly comes from a background of 'wealth and privilege', unlike Jeremy Corbyn for example. Presumably Southam would rule out Sir Keir Starmer as well, given his career.
Only Remainers could claim that someone who grew up with a single mum in a council house is privileged.
Only Leavers focus on the past, not the present.
It is Remainers that push forward a vision from the 1950s to address the problems of the 1930s. Leavers are more focused on emerging markets that are already out competing the bloated welfare states of the West.
But that doesn't change the idiocy of claiming a man that grew up in dirt poverty, went through military training and achieved high ministerial office is stupid and lazy.
There's a lot to be said for being in the right places at the right times. What do you call a government minister who thought we could do individual FTAs with Germany, France and Italy?
Non existent because it didn't happen. Apparently you struggle with the concept of words having multiple meanings.
So when he said we'd do a deal with Germany he didn't mean it? I see :-D
No when he said we'd do a deal with Germany, that didn't refer to an FTA. It referred to an agreement in what was in their interest to get their support for an overall EU FTA. Did you even bother reading my second sentence?
So an agreement with Germany, but not a free trade one? Got it. When will it happen?
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
This is the Nick Cleggss there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
Funnily enough, Europhiles are not heavily represented in the current government - the one that is utterly dysfunctional and is making a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations. This is a mess entirely made by right wing Brexiteers who never bothered to engage with reality. They own it entirely.
There you go again. Avoiding the arguments on Clegg because dealing with them would force you to confront your own inconsistencies. You just withdraw to to your anti-Brexit comfort blanket.
INTELLECTUALLY LAZY.
Why should I criticise Clegg for the total mess Brexiteers are making of Brexit? He is entirely irrelevant to the process.
Because the only criticism we should ever give to anyone should be Brexiteers over Brexit? Why don't you just summon up the mild intellectual work needed to apply to the criticisms you dish out to your own side? It would pull back a small amount of the credibility you've lost by claiming a man got from a council estate to a top five role in government by sheer luck.
When talking about the complete mess the government is making of Brexit I am unlikely to criticise Nick Clegg, it is true. That's because he is entirely irrelevant. If you cannot see that, it's you who has the problem, not me. Yes, Davis has got very lucky. His abilities do not match his responsibilities.
I pointed out your criticisms applied more strongly to your own side. You can't even address those arguments because it would force you out your intellectually safe bubble. Even after being called on it you can't challenge yourself. Sad and pathetic. And lazy.
I see the ranting Europhobes are out in force, angry that their heroes are out of their depth and drowning. Screaming about Remain supporters might be cathartic but doesn't make the progress of Brexit any more impressive.
Oh look. A Europhile angrily ranting about others angrily ranting, with nary a point in substance I sight. Never seen that before.
I'm afraid I've used up my time pointing out Remainder hypocrisy today. This will have to wait until tomorrow!
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
This is the Nick Cleggss there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
Funnily enough, Europhiles are not heavily represented in the current government - the one that is utterly dysfunctional and is making a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations. This is a mess entirely made by right wing Brexiteers who never bothered to engage with reality. They own it entirely.
There you go again. Avoiding the arguments on Clegg because dealing with them would force you to confront your own inconsistencies. You just withdraw to to your anti-Brexit comfort blanket.
INTELLECTUALLY LAZY.
Why should I criticise Clegg for the total mess Brexiteers are making of Brexit? He is entirely irrelevant to the process.
Because the only criticism we should ever give to anyone should be Brexiteers over Brexit? Why don't you just summon up the mild intellectual work needed to apply to the criticisms you dish out to your own side? It would pull back a small amount of the credibility you've lost by claiming a man got from a council estate to a top five role in government by sheer luck.
When talking about the complete mess the government is making of Brexit I am unlikely to criticise Nick Clegg, it is true. That's because he is entirely irrelevant. If you cannot see that, it's you who has the problem, not me. Yes, Davis has got very lucky. His abilities do not match his responsibilities.
I pointed out your criticisms applied more strongly to your own side. You can't even address those arguments because it would force you out your intellectually safe bubble. Even after being called on it you can't challenge yourself. Sad and pathetic. And lazy.
"My side" is not negotiating Brexit. Your side is. If you do not understand that, don't blame me.
Yep - he is a very well paid minister, with a safe seat, a large expense account, a generous pension package and an address book full of contacts. He may have started life at the bottom, but that's not where he is now. He is immensely privileged. Brexit will do no damage to him.
And so are all the politicians who are players in this. You are letting your prejudice blind you. Why would your description not fit Nick Clegg or Keir Starmer?
It would. Bur neither Clegg nor Starmer spent years railing against the EU and saying leaving would be a piece of cake and that we'd be agreeing free trade deals left, right and centre within months of triggering Article 50. I don't begrudge Davis his wealth and privilege, I criticise him for his intellectual laziness and aversion to hard work. The wealth and privilege shield him from the consequences. Exactly the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn, of course.
This is the Nick Clegg that claimed the European Army now being pushed forwards by Juncker was a figment of eurosceptic's imagination? The one that claimed there would be a recession when we left? The one that pushed EU integration, opposed a democratic referendum and has the nerve to call himself a liberal democrat? Plenty of intellectual laziness there. And his taxpayer funded wealth allows him to put his kids in private schools unaffected by mass migration.
Of course, Europhiles are out of scope for your criticism.
Funnily enough, Europhiles are not heavily represented in the current government - the one that is utterly dysfunctional and is making a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations. This is a mess entirely made by right wing Brexiteers who never bothered to engage with reality. They own it entirely.
I love the characterisation of the Government being run by right wing Brexiteers - The Prime Minister supported the Remain campaign and only 6 full members of the cabinet supported the Leave campaign. If you look at the great offices of state only one is held by a Brexiteer and Boris is certainly no right wing nutjob even though he is a buffoon.
Also, did you read the Conservative Party manifesto for the 2017 GE? Take out fox hunting and Brexit and you've found a platform that would have suited New Labour.
Comments
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/george-osborne-defrosts-humble-pie/
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200205
Launched a couple of hours ago, on the back of the Victoria Derbyshire programme yesterday and a big Parliament Square rally with 5 Conservative MPs last week, which I was involved in organising (obviously with my non-partisan hat). Gove has expressed sympathy so it may actually happen - most farmers are not really keen on shipping their animals overseas so there isn't a huge lobby on the other side.
But that doesn't change the idiocy of claiming a man that grew up in dirt poverty, went through military training and achieved high ministerial office is stupid and lazy.
Brexiteers can't simultaneously be privileged folks who are shielded from the consequences from their votes, and at the same time thick and poor.
O/T I just discovered that Stalin murdered his parrot, by hitting it over the head with his pipe.
He didn't like the way that it imitated his hawking and spitting.
The end result is quite uncertain IMO. I think there are broadly three possible outcomes:
1. We agree a deal whereby we remain effectively in the single market and customs union (but probably not formally so) for 2-3 years during which time we pay something similar to what we pay at the moment, followed by a trade deal covering goods but probably not services. There would be some smallish on-going payments for participation in EU programmes, and we'd be quite tied up in EU regulations indefinitely. Call this the 'minimum disruption' scenario. If it happens, short-term economic damage will be small.
2. We agree amicably to part to WTO terms. That would involve some bribe (possibly quite a large bribe) to the EU for their cooperation in smoothing over the transition, in all sorts of nitty-gritty ways such as air travel. Call this the 'controlled WTO' scenario. Economic damage would be substantial, but not disastrous except for a few specific industries, such as car manufacturing.
3. Worst case, we crash out in acrimony, don't pay them a bean, and they are extremely unhelpful in the transition. Economic damage would be huge for us and quite large for them (which in turn doesn't help us, of course); in this scenario, expect a financial crash comparable to 2008/9. Call this the 'chaotic crash-out' scenario.
Off the top of my head, putting probabilities to them, I'd guess something like:
Minimum disruption 50%
Controlled WTO 40%
Chaotic crash-out 10%
I might be being too optimistic, though.
INTELLECTUALLY LAZY.
About the first sensible thing I've heard he did. Parrots are crap.
I could stomach a WTO Brexit if we were planning for it. But our new customs computer gets switched on just 6 weeks before we leave, has a maximum capacity 40% below what we'd need, and we're 5 years away from a system that could do the job in a WTO environment. I feel like Ed Harris in Apollo 13 pointing to the two separate crosses on the blackboard saying "spacecraft runs out of air there, can't re-enter until here, how do we get from there to here?" And rhetoric won't cover the gap. The EU won't/can't roll over. We either stay in the single market or we set up for a hard border. And we don't have time to do the latter...
And THIS is why a mass sacking is needed. I get the sense that the likes of BoJo are in utter denial about the politics and wilfully ignorant of the practicalities. I am not interested in the political blame game or even who is the government if indulging in these means that we cripple this country economically and leave the door open to the risk of food riots.
And yes, I am saying food riots. Although the various players are trying to tread carefully as its politically sensitive we need to ask the experts. Ask HMRC about their customs computer/infrastructure/staff. Ask food manufacturers about supply. Ask supermarkets, wholesalers, farmers about where our food comes from. Ask manufacturers of any size about their plans for Q2 2019 onwards. Industry is shitting itself at what happens as this goes wrong. And every week that goes by where the political divisions widen and the chance of any practical deal narrow is it going wrong.
A political extinction level event for any politician and party associated with it. Sane Tories need to get rid of these clowns now. Whilst there is still time.
I'm afraid I've used up my time pointing out Remainder hypocrisy today. This will have to wait until tomorrow!
Also, did you read the Conservative Party manifesto for the 2017 GE? Take out fox hunting and Brexit and you've found a platform that would have suited New Labour.