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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It seems the only exiting going on at the Department for Exiti

SystemSystem Posts: 12,259
edited September 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It seems the only exiting going on at the Department for Exiting the European Union is the staff exiting

UK’s Brexit shuffle suggests Theresa May is very much in command https://t.co/kRXhfSMayI

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,139
    First :)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,849
    Why the surety that DD can "turn things around"? He's much more likely to flounce back to the backbenches. With the added bonus of a valedictory by-election.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited September 2017
    "Although I’m sure David Davis will be able to turn things around through these challenging times with the help of his current Chief of Staff, Stewart Jackson......."

    So at last some good news......

    I'm sure we'll all sleep more soundly knowing Stewart Jackson's silky smooth diplomatic skills have been brought to the party
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Do the odds of a 2018 election now look a bit shorter, are we starting to see the unravelling of the Tory government 12 weeks after the GE
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    Dura_Ace said:

    Why the surety that DD can "turn things around"? He's much more likely to flounce back to the backbenches. With the added bonus of a valedictory by-election.

    Perish the thought but I wonder if TSE is being sarcastic.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,774
    swing_voter said:

    Do the odds of a 2018 election now look a bit shorter, are we starting to see the unravelling of the Tory government 12 weeks after the GE

    I doubt it. The fixed term parliament act means it's much more difficult for oppositions to bring down a government, it would probably require a massive act of Tory self immolation. Any replacement for May will see the Brexit negotiations as their potential saviour - get a good deal against the odds and go off the back of it. Conversely, calling another election before getting a deal is potential suicide. Their ready made excuse too is that another election would be an indulgence mid-talks.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,230
    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Hard to disagree with that.

    His only weakness was to bear grudges against those he felt had crossed him in the past, like Davis.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,881
    What was the quote from The Importance of Being Ernest..... To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    Oh dear

    once again our remainers get themselves all worked up about very little
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Part of the trouble is the time wasted creating a DExEU in the first place, it could and should have been done by the FCO. There was no need for departmental reorganisation.

    The other part of the problem is David Davis only wanting good news. No wonder it is a car crash.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    edited September 2017
    meanwhile, it looks like some other people have been getting carried away too

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/09/18/immediacy-threat-climate-change-exaggerated-faulty-models/
  • eekeek Posts: 28,779
    slightly off topic but Yellowsubmarine was talking about personal debt in the last thread and I pulled this information out last night when checking something

    If you want to know why we voted for Brexit everything you need to know can be seen in the following 4 facts
    In 2004 the average gross household disposable income per Capita in County Durham was £12232 in 2015 it was £15496 (from https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/regionalaccounts/grossdisposablehouseholdincome/datasets/regionalgrossdisposablehouseholdincomegdhibylocalauthorityintheuk)
    Unfortunately in 2015 after inflation you needed £16,940.45 to purchase £12232 of goods at 2004 prices... (from http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/default.aspx)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,399
    What's Theresa May going to do differently from David Davis? He has all along been hamstrung by the contradictions of Mrs May's positions, which are those of the Leave Campaign.

    You either accept what the EU demands, in which case it raises not for the first time the question of why we are going through all this pain, or you reject them entirely, which guarantees Brexit failure.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Cameron was hands off and didn't reshuffle excessively (limited by coalition there).
    But the fact that he ended up with a massive NHS reorganisation he (reportedly) didn't want is pretty damning...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    FF43 said:

    What's Theresa May going to do differently from David Davis? He has all along been hamstrung by the contradictions of Mrs May's positions, which are those of the Leave Campaign.

    You either accept what the EU demands, in which case it raises not for the first time the question of why we are going through all this pain, or you reject them entirely, which guarantees Brexit failure.

    I sincerely hope your employer never lets you near a negotiation
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 463
    FF43 said:

    What's Theresa May going to do differently from David Davis? He has all along been hamstrung by the contradictions of Mrs May's positions, which are those of the Leave Campaign.

    You either accept what the EU demands, in which case it raises not for the first time the question of why we are going through all this pain, or you reject them entirely, which guarantees Brexit failure.

    Or you negotiate. It isn't (or, at least, shouldn't be) all or nothing. The EU wants things from us. It is perfectly normal to insist that we get something in return. Both sides should be aiming to end up with an agreement that is somewhere between their starting positions. That is what negotiation is about.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Slightly off topic, but Jezza just pulled a classic on Piers Morgan.

    https://twitter.com/HectorBellerin/status/909856300804268032
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Morning all,

    I have a rotten cold, so apologies in advance that I may be more grumpy than usual :-)

    I can also here the words 'but nothing has changed' ringing in my ears...
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    Jesus, what a mess.

    We know how good Theresa is at managing complex problems:

    Exhibit A: Home Office
    Exhibit B: GE 2017

    We're staring into the abyss. We need time, honesty and a more moderate approach.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Monksfield said:

    Jesus, what a mess.

    We know how good Theresa is at managing complex problems:

    Exhibit A: Home Office
    Exhibit B: GE 2017

    We're staring into the abyss. We need time, honesty and a more moderate approach.

    I wonder whether Cam/Os should have made far more of the obvious splits on the Leave side as to what Brexit actually means.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    In her speech in Florence on Friday, the prime minister is supposed to be unveiling her route map but even now, Whitehall sources say, the text is being rewritten and recalibrated as a weak and incompetent leader tries to balance the competing forces around her. Although she is said to be finally consulting colleagues, if it feels like anarchy it’s because there is no agreement.

    Crucially, and potentially catastrophically for the prime minister, the government’s position on Brexit has still not been agreed by senior ministers. In fact, there has been no substantive cabinet discussion on our future relationship with the EU, nor any agreement around the top table about the trade-offs that should be made between access to the single market and immigration controls. That is not only astonishing but outrageous.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/may-is-so-weak-that-boris-was-forced-to-lead-z7lqhl57w
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,338
    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Hard to disagree with that.

    His only weakness was to bear grudges against those he felt had crossed him in the past, like Davis.
    The grudge was entirely from DD's side.

    He genuinely thought he could waltz back into the shadow cabinet after that by election.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Cameron was hands off and didn't reshuffle excessively (limited by coalition there).
    But the fact that he ended up with a massive NHS reorganisation he (reportedly) didn't want is pretty damning...
    I seem to recall that some of that was a (misplaced) old loyalty to Lansley, his former boss.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited September 2017
    eek said:

    slightly off topic but Yellowsubmarine was talking about personal debt in the last thread and I pulled this information out last night when checking something

    If you want to know why we voted for Brexit everything you need to know can be seen in the following 4 facts
    In 2004 the average gross household disposable income per Capita in County Durham was £12232 in 2015 it was £15496 (from https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/regionalaccounts/grossdisposablehouseholdincome/datasets/regionalgrossdisposablehouseholdincomegdhibylocalauthorityintheuk)
    Unfortunately in 2015 after inflation you needed £16,940.45 to purchase £12232 of goods at 2004 prices... (from http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/default.aspx)

    Would the public sector pay cap have anything to do with that? After all, Durham University and the Student Loan Company in Darlington are major employers in the area, as is English Heritage and the Tourist Board.

    The reason why I am wondering about this is because I simply cannot imagine the lecturers at Durham voting Leave, so I am thinking the comparison may be simplistic.

    On the other hand, I can imagine many employed in the tourist industry voting leave, counterintuitive though that may seem.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Part of the trouble is the time wasted creating a DExEU in the first place, it could and should have been done by the FCO. There was no need for departmental reorganisation.

    The other part of the problem is David Davis only wanting good news. No wonder it is a car crash.

    FCO not trusted, as institutionally they didn't want Brexit?
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    Are all these highly mobile folk migrating from the DExEU for other jobs " Citizens of Nowhere " ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,379
    Scott_P said:

    In her speech in Florence on Friday, the prime minister is supposed to be unveiling her route map but even now, Whitehall sources say, the text is being rewritten and recalibrated as a weak and incompetent leader tries to balance the competing forces around her. Although she is said to be finally consulting colleagues, if it feels like anarchy it’s because there is no agreement.

    Crucially, and potentially catastrophically for the prime minister, the government’s position on Brexit has still not been agreed by senior ministers. In fact, there has been no substantive cabinet discussion on our future relationship with the EU, nor any agreement around the top table about the trade-offs that should be made between access to the single market and immigration controls. That is not only astonishing but outrageous.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/may-is-so-weak-that-boris-was-forced-to-lead-z7lqhl57w

    Clearly we need a Labour government to do a decent job of negotiating a Brexit deal in the best interest of the British people. Jog on Tezzie - give Jezza a chance.

    In all seriousness, wouldn't PB's Conservatives prefer to have Sir Kier leading the negotiations rather than DD?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    On topic, the BF 'next Cabinet member to leave' is pretty broken. Not enough interest I guess.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    rottenborough said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Cameron was hands off and didn't reshuffle excessively (limited by coalition there).
    But the fact that he ended up with a massive NHS reorganisation he (reportedly) didn't want is pretty damning...
    I seem to recall that some of that was a (misplaced) old loyalty to Lansley, his former boss.
    Interesting - I didn't know he used to work for Lansley.
    I'd also tack on - his big society idea didn't seem to get much buy-in from colleagues.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Good morning, everyone.

    The Florence speech will be an interesting moment, regardless of the actual content. It'll be noteworthy for moving things or along, or failing to do so.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    edited September 2017
    SandyRentool said:

    Scott_P said:

    In her speech in Florence on Friday, the prime minister is supposed to be unveiling her route map but even now, Whitehall sources say, the text is being rewritten and recalibrated as a weak and incompetent leader tries to balance the competing forces around her. Although she is said to be finally consulting colleagues, if it feels like anarchy it’s because there is no agreement.

    Crucially, and potentially catastrophically for the prime minister, the government’s position on Brexit has still not been agreed by senior ministers. In fact, there has been no substantive cabinet discussion on our future relationship with the EU, nor any agreement around the top table about the trade-offs that should be made between access to the single market and immigration controls. That is not only astonishing but outrageous.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/may-is-so-weak-that-boris-was-forced-to-lead-z7lqhl57w

    Clearly we need a Labour government to do a decent job of negotiating a Brexit deal in the best interest of the British people. Jog on Tezzie - give Jezza a chance.

    In all seriousness, wouldn't PB's Conservatives prefer to have Sir Kier leading the negotiations rather than DD?
    I can't answer for the Conservatives, but I certainly wouldn't. Starmer talks well but even leaving aside the rumours about him, his time at the CPS was one of scandal and mismanagement (admittedly this is true of most DPPs).

    Not that it is likely to make any difference as it is becoming painfully clear the EU have no intention of negotiating.

    Edited because autocorrect changed 'Starmer' to 'Starter,' amusingly.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,941
    SandyRentool said:

    Scott_P said:

    In her speech in Florence on Friday, the prime minister is supposed to be unveiling her route map but even now, Whitehall sources say, the text is being rewritten and recalibrated as a weak and incompetent leader tries to balance the competing forces around her. Although she is said to be finally consulting colleagues, if it feels like anarchy it’s because there is no agreement.

    Crucially, and potentially catastrophically for the prime minister, the government’s position on Brexit has still not been agreed by senior ministers. In fact, there has been no substantive cabinet discussion on our future relationship with the EU, nor any agreement around the top table about the trade-offs that should be made between access to the single market and immigration controls. That is not only astonishing but outrageous.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/may-is-so-weak-that-boris-was-forced-to-lead-z7lqhl57w

    Clearly we need a Labour government to do a decent job of negotiating a Brexit deal in the best interest of the British people. Jog on Tezzie - give Jezza a chance.

    In all seriousness, wouldn't PB's Conservatives prefer to have Sir Kier leading the negotiations rather than DD?
    I know that David Cameron would have preferred it if things were different, nevertheless this mess is his legacy. No wonder he's retreated to his shed.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Hard to disagree with that.

    His only weakness was to bear grudges against those he felt had crossed him in the past, like Davis.
    Perhaps he saw the deficiencies in Davis long before the rest of us?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Hague urges two year transition:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/18/no-point-tories-arguing-should-pm-rate-will-jeremy-corbyn/
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rottenborough said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Part of the trouble is the time wasted creating a DExEU in the first place, it could and should have been done by the FCO. There was no need for departmental reorganisation.

    The other part of the problem is David Davis only wanting good news. No wonder it is a car crash.

    FCO not trusted, as institutionally they didn't want Brexit?
    Therein lies the problem. If you see traitors everywhere then it becomes an internal battle.

    There were plenty at the FCO that voted Leave. They rather liked taking back foreign policy from the EU.

    Now we have squabbling fiefdoms at the court of May, and everyone plotting.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,779
    edited September 2017
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    slightly off topic but Yellowsubmarine was talking about personal debt in the last thread and I pulled this information out last night when checking something

    If you want to know why we voted for Brexit everything you need to know can be seen in the following 4 facts
    In 2004 the average gross household disposable income per Capita in County Durham was £12232 in 2015 it was £15496 (from https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/regionalaccounts/grossdisposablehouseholdincome/datasets/regionalgrossdisposablehouseholdincomegdhibylocalauthorityintheuk)
    Unfortunately in 2015 after inflation you needed £16,940.45 to purchase £12232 of goods at 2004 prices... (from http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/default.aspx)

    Would the public sector pay cap have anything to do with that? After all, Durham University and the Student Loan Company in Darlington are major employers in the area, as is English Heritage and the Tourist Board.

    The reason why I am wondering about this is because I simply cannot imagine the lecturers at Durham voting Leave, so I am thinking the comparison may be simplistic.

    On the other hand, I can imagine many employed in the tourist industry voting leave, counterintuitive though that may seem.
    To be honest County Durham could be replaced with virtually any Brexit part of the country the reason I picked it is because House prices there are the same now (in £) as in 2004 and I was pulling the information for a different reason.. It just so happened that County Durham was the first example to hand...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,881
    edited September 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Cameron was hands off and didn't reshuffle excessively (limited by coalition there).
    But the fact that he ended up with a massive NHS reorganisation he (reportedly) didn't want is pretty damning...
    If that’s true, then he’s even further ahead in tbe Lord North Chase!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Roger said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Hard to disagree with that.

    His only weakness was to bear grudges against those he felt had crossed him in the past, like Davis.
    Perhaps he saw the deficiencies in Davis long before the rest of us?
    Hold on, wasn't Davis ensconced as Shad Home Secretary when he walked out and caused a by-election? Or am I misremembering?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    On topic - I think the risk for Theresa is if she centralises control she will share more of the blame if things go wrong, and will have annoyed/sidelined Davis who is a future challenger.

    I'm slightly surprised Boris remains in place.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,338
    PeterC said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Why the surety that DD can "turn things around"? He's much more likely to flounce back to the backbenches. With the added bonus of a valedictory by-election.

    Perish the thought but I wonder if TSE is being sarcastic.
    *Innocent Face*
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    He left a useless person I'm charge of the home office. Big black mark against him.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,779
    rottenborough said:

    Monksfield said:

    Jesus, what a mess.

    We know how good Theresa is at managing complex problems:

    Exhibit A: Home Office
    Exhibit B: GE 2017

    We're staring into the abyss. We need time, honesty and a more moderate approach.

    I wonder whether Cam/Os should have made far more of the obvious splits on the Leave side as to what Brexit actually means.
    It would have been a better argument than look how much poorer you could be to people already poorer than they were...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The Florence speech will be an interesting moment, regardless of the actual content. It'll be noteworthy for moving things or along, or failing to do so.

    I pretty sure it will be the latter.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Hard to disagree with that.

    His only weakness was to bear grudges against those he felt had crossed him in the past, like Davis.
    The grudge was entirely from DD's side.

    He genuinely thought he could waltz back into the shadow cabinet after that by election.
    He could have if Cameron had allowed him to. The by-election was triggered to embarrass Labour (though it didn't really work, he did ultimately succeed in halting 42 day detention). Considering it was Cameron's policy to go against 42 day detention and Davis called the by-election on an issue Cameron agreed with he could have rolled with it.

    Of course Davis should never have called the by-election without making sure Cameron was 100% on board with it first.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    SandyRentool said:

    Scott_P said:

    In her speech in Florence on Friday, the prime minister is supposed to be unveiling her route map but even now, Whitehall sources say, the text is being rewritten and recalibrated as a weak and incompetent leader tries to balance the competing forces around her. Although she is said to be finally consulting colleagues, if it feels like anarchy it’s because there is no agreement.

    Crucially, and potentially catastrophically for the prime minister, the government’s position on Brexit has still not been agreed by senior ministers. In fact, there has been no substantive cabinet discussion on our future relationship with the EU, nor any agreement around the top table about the trade-offs that should be made between access to the single market and immigration controls. That is not only astonishing but outrageous.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/may-is-so-weak-that-boris-was-forced-to-lead-z7lqhl57w

    Clearly we need a Labour government to do a decent job of negotiating a Brexit deal in the best interest of the British people. Jog on Tezzie - give Jezza a chance.

    In all seriousness, wouldn't PB's Conservatives prefer to have Sir Kier leading the negotiations rather than DD?
    No. We simply wouldn't really leave. He hasn't appeared to be as talented as people think he is and he's almost totally isolated from his own leadership. In fact, there's nothing solid to assume that he wouldn't be even more swallowed up by the civil service than Davis appears to have been, or even be shuffled out of the way by Corbyn and replaced with someone more ideologically pure.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    foxinsoxuk said:

    rottenborough said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Part of the trouble is the time wasted creating a DExEU in the first place, it could and should have been done by the FCO. There was no need for departmental reorganisation.

    The other part of the problem is David Davis only wanting good news. No wonder it is a car crash.

    FCO not trusted, as institutionally they didn't want Brexit?
    Therein lies the problem. If you see traitors everywhere then it becomes an internal battle.

    There were plenty at the FCO that voted Leave. They rather liked taking back foreign policy from the EU.

    Now we have squabbling fiefdoms at the court of May, and everyone plotting.
    Surely it was more that Boris needed a top job, but with as little responsibility as possible?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,379
    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,717
    rkrkrk said:

    rottenborough said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Cameron was hands off and didn't reshuffle excessively (limited by coalition there).
    But the fact that he ended up with a massive NHS reorganisation he (reportedly) didn't want is pretty damning...
    I seem to recall that some of that was a (misplaced) old loyalty to Lansley, his former boss.
    Interesting - I didn't know he used to work for Lansley.
    I'd also tack on - his big society idea didn't seem to get much buy-in from colleagues.
    No wonder it was a crap idea from a muddled millionaire who had never experienced real life.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,881
    Alistair said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    He left a useless person I'm charge of the home office. Big black mark against him.
    Underlines the view I had of the Coalition;
    Clegg should have insisted on one of the Great Offices, and AFAIR nothing was promised to May, as it was to Osborne and Hague.

    You can, of cpourse, wonder as to how good Clegg would have been........
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,157
    rottenborough said:

    Roger said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Hard to disagree with that.

    His only weakness was to bear grudges against those he felt had crossed him in the past, like Davis.
    Perhaps he saw the deficiencies in Davis long before the rest of us?
    Hold on, wasn't Davis ensconced as Shad Home Secretary when he walked out and caused a by-election? Or am I misremembering?
    No, you're correct. Moreover I think he was the only one of Howard's first shadow cabinet in 2003 still in the same post, due to his impressive performance in the role opposing Tony Blair's madder ideas on locking people up indefinitely without charge, never mind trial.

    The flounce was the more inexplicable and stupid because he was more or less guaranteed the Home Office in two years had he stayed, whereupon he could have undone the damage. Instead after a brief interval of Dominic Grieve we got first Grayling and then May, who were nothing like as switched on to the issues of principle and caved in on just about everything.

    It was a really, really dumb thing to do and still leaves questions over his judgement.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    malcolmg said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rottenborough said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Cameron was hands off and didn't reshuffle excessively (limited by coalition there).
    But the fact that he ended up with a massive NHS reorganisation he (reportedly) didn't want is pretty damning...
    I seem to recall that some of that was a (misplaced) old loyalty to Lansley, his former boss.
    Interesting - I didn't know he used to work for Lansley.
    I'd also tack on - his big society idea didn't seem to get much buy-in from colleagues.
    No wonder it was a crap idea from a muddled millionaire who had never experienced real life.
    I'm not so sceptical. The massive problem was that at the same time as talking about the virtues of third sector and voluntary organizations, Cameron and co, were slashing all their budgets via cuts to local councils. I was working for local voluntary place, part-time, as a volunteer when the blitz hit. Nearly closed the place.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    Which is probably why not much will happen until Merkel is re-elected.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    eek said:

    slightly off topic but Yellowsubmarine was talking about personal debt in the last thread and I pulled this information out last night when checking something

    If you want to know why we voted for Brexit everything you need to know can be seen in the following 4 facts
    In 2004 the average gross household disposable income per Capita in County Durham was £12232 in 2015 it was £15496 (from https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/regionalaccounts/grossdisposablehouseholdincome/datasets/regionalgrossdisposablehouseholdincomegdhibylocalauthorityintheuk)
    Unfortunately in 2015 after inflation you needed £16,940.45 to purchase £12232 of goods at 2004 prices... (from http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/default.aspx)

    Which is why the change in the personal allowance was so important
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    rkrkrk said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    rottenborough said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Part of the trouble is the time wasted creating a DExEU in the first place, it could and should have been done by the FCO. There was no need for departmental reorganisation.

    The other part of the problem is David Davis only wanting good news. No wonder it is a car crash.

    FCO not trusted, as institutionally they didn't want Brexit?
    Therein lies the problem. If you see traitors everywhere then it becomes an internal battle.

    There were plenty at the FCO that voted Leave. They rather liked taking back foreign policy from the EU.

    Now we have squabbling fiefdoms at the court of May, and everyone plotting.
    Surely it was more that Boris needed a top job, but with as little responsibility as possible?
    :lol: ...and out of the country as much as possible!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SandyRentool said:

    Clearly we need a Labour government to do a decent job of negotiating a Brexit deal in the best interest of the British people. Jog on Tezzie - give Jezza a chance.

    In all seriousness, wouldn't PB's Conservatives prefer to have Sir Kier leading the negotiations rather than DD?

    We could use another election.

    Something needs to happen. The current zombie government lurches on with no idea where it is going or why.

    Boris is itching to resign, but won't. May needs to sack him, but can't. DeXEU is apparently more dysfunctional than the Home Office. The cabinet is split top to bottom. There is no Parliamentary majority for any flavour of Brexit, or none.

    Meanwhile the boss of JLR talks about the giant factory they are building in the EU, and the Brexiteers still haven't realised how bad this is going to be for UK industry
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    ydoethur said:

    rottenborough said:

    Roger said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Hard to disagree with that.

    His only weakness was to bear grudges against those he felt had crossed him in the past, like Davis.
    Perhaps he saw the deficiencies in Davis long before the rest of us?
    Hold on, wasn't Davis ensconced as Shad Home Secretary when he walked out and caused a by-election? Or am I misremembering?
    No, you're correct. Moreover I think he was the only one of Howard's first shadow cabinet in 2003 still in the same post, due to his impressive performance in the role opposing Tony Blair's madder ideas on locking people up indefinitely without charge, never mind trial.

    The flounce was the more inexplicable and stupid because he was more or less guaranteed the Home Office in two years had he stayed, whereupon he could have undone the damage. Instead after a brief interval of Dominic Grieve we got first Grayling and then May, who were nothing like as switched on to the issues of principle and caved in on just about everything.

    It was a really, really dumb thing to do and still leaves questions over his judgement.
    While that might be correct and it ended up not looking a very smart move - had Cameron thought he were about to win an election, Davis would probably have been shipped off to Rural Affairs. Being allowed to shadow something doesn't mean you'll get the job if power is bestowed on your boss.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    Even if that were true, if May inked a backroom deal like that, she still couldn't sell it to her cabinet, never mind anyone else
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @politicshome: Tory grandee Ken Clarke says Boris Johnson's agitation over Brexit is part of a leadership campaign and an "irrelevant nuisance". #r4today

    @JamesTapsfield: Ken Clarke says in 'normal' times Boris would be sacked
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Slightly off topic, but Jezza just pulled a classic on Piers Morgan.

    https://twitter.com/HectorBellerin/status/909856300804268032

    Actually it sounds like he was just unpleasantly rude to someone

    Deliberately excluding someone from a conversation like that is petty and ungracious
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Bing.Bang. Bosh. Boris Johnson gets duffing up by Ken Clarke for peddling "simplistic and dishonest" claims @BBCr4today
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    rottenborough said:

    malcolmg said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rottenborough said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Cameron was hands off and didn't reshuffle excessively (limited by coalition there).
    But the fact that he ended up with a massive NHS reorganisation he (reportedly) didn't want is pretty damning...
    I seem to recall that some of that was a (misplaced) old loyalty to Lansley, his former boss.
    Interesting - I didn't know he used to work for Lansley.
    I'd also tack on - his big society idea didn't seem to get much buy-in from colleagues.
    No wonder it was a crap idea from a muddled millionaire who had never experienced real life.
    I'm not so sceptical. The massive problem was that at the same time as talking about the virtues of third sector and voluntary organizations, Cameron and co, were slashing all their budgets via cuts to local councils. I was working for local voluntary place, part-time, as a volunteer when the blitz hit. Nearly closed the place.
    I'm a town councillor now, and I have to say that our budgets are pretty tight and we don't splash much about. Probably though at our level it was ever thus.

    However, if you want to see profligacy and waste, just head up the road to the District and County councils, who cry they have money for absolutely nothing but refuse to raise a penny in taxation while organising every daft jolly from here to Tibet.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: If Theresa May wasn't so weak Boris Johnson wd have been sacked - Ken Clarke @BBCr4today
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Slightly off topic, but Jezza just pulled a classic on Piers Morgan.

    https://twitter.com/HectorBellerin/status/909856300804268032

    Actually it sounds like he was just unpleasantly rude to someone

    Deliberately excluding someone from a conversation like that is petty and ungracious
    Piers Morgan described himself as interrupting.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JolyonMaugham: "All this 'if you jump off a cliff and spread your wings you'll find yourself flying into the blue yonder,' that's not a policy": Ken Clarke
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SandyRentool said:

    Scott_P said:

    In her speech in Florence on Friday, the prime minister is supposed to be unveiling her route map but even now, Whitehall sources say, the text is being rewritten and recalibrated as a weak and incompetent leader tries to balance the competing forces around her. Although she is said to be finally consulting colleagues, if it feels like anarchy it’s because there is no agreement.

    Crucially, and potentially catastrophically for the prime minister, the government’s position on Brexit has still not been agreed by senior ministers. In fact, there has been no substantive cabinet discussion on our future relationship with the EU, nor any agreement around the top table about the trade-offs that should be made between access to the single market and immigration controls. That is not only astonishing but outrageous.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/may-is-so-weak-that-boris-was-forced-to-lead-z7lqhl57w

    Clearly we need a Labour government to do a decent job of negotiating a Brexit deal in the best interest of the British people. Jog on Tezzie - give Jezza a chance.

    In all seriousness, wouldn't PB's Conservatives prefer to have Sir Kier leading the negotiations rather than DD?
    Sir Keir would be as focused as Richard Neville was in his negotiations with France
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Tory grandee Ken Clarke says Boris Johnson's agitation over Brexit is part of a leadership campaign and an "irrelevant nuisance". #r4today

    @JamesTapsfield: Ken Clarke says in 'normal' times Boris would be sacked

    Can't argue with Ken on these points.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,270
    Charles said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Slightly off topic, but Jezza just pulled a classic on Piers Morgan.

    https://twitter.com/HectorBellerin/status/909856300804268032

    Actually it sounds like he was just unpleasantly rude to someone

    Deliberately excluding someone from a conversation like that is petty and ungracious
    Bellerin should spend less time on Twitter and more time practising his crossing.
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    This is what happens when you don't triangulate after a 52%/48% referendum result. Not only did May do too little too late to separate Brexit its self from the Leave phenomenon she ramped things up. " Citizens of Nowhere " " The promise of Brexit ".

    We're an old country. Our institutions are at least a thousand years old. Our church in England is 1400 years old. We're approaching the Bimillennium of our capital. Yet this Brexit/Leave stuff has got as bad as the quasi religious Exodus mythology in US politics. But the US is a much younger country, is vastly more religious and was partly born out of an Exodus.

    Any sucessful Brexit involved calming down, planning and ditching most of the unhinged mythology of the Leave event. It would have been mushy bitter compromise but would have been deliverable.

    Instead entirely driven by the internal politics of the Tory Party we've engaged in the world's most complex negotiation as a form of national psychotherapy. The Therapist who is 9 times our size and looking at the clock is increasingly irritated and bewildered.

    But unusually the status quo isn't an option. Usually this sort of psychological dysfunction leads to paralysis. But A50 means one of the options definitely happens by default in 18 months time.



  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Hard to disagree with that.

    His only weakness was to bear grudges against those he felt had crossed him in the past, like Davis.
    That isn't a weakness.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    I agree with that - she is hosting a joint conference with Macron in New York on terrorism later this week

    This thread is the same as ever with those wanting to remain all doom and gloom - I cannot see any of our politicians doing any better at present. Certainly not Starmer or labour as they are as split as anyone and if put in the spotlight would inherit the same impases.

    Ironically, it looks as if Boris has united the party behind Theresa and the Florence speech is the biggest moment for her and the country. I have no idea at this stage what she is going to say and how she delivers it but she will either succeed or fail depending on the response to it, not just in the UK but in Europe. She is raising the negotiations to head of states level

    Let both sides of the argument calm down and realise compromise will happen
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    , It is fairly fundamental to negotiation that we do not get to pick the other team.

    Macron and Merkel are not going to knife their chief negotiator. That is the sort of thing the Brits do.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,881
    edited September 2017
    Toytally O/t.... although it might turn out not to be. If it is finally decided that the monetary deal with the DUP needs Parliamentary approval, will said DUP be allowed to vote?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Charles said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Slightly off topic, but Jezza just pulled a classic on Piers Morgan.

    https://twitter.com/HectorBellerin/status/909856300804268032

    Actually it sounds like he was just unpleasantly rude to someone

    Deliberately excluding someone from a conversation like that is petty and ungracious
    It was Piers Morgan. What would you do?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    foxinsoxuk said:

    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    , It is fairly fundamental to negotiation that we do not get to pick the other team.

    Macron and Merkel are not going to knife their chief negotiator. That is the sort of thing the Brits do.
    But they do not have a negotiator. Barnier and Juncker have no intention of negotiating
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    OldKingCole said:

    Toytally O/t.... although it might turn out not to be. If it is finally decided that the monetary deal with the DUP needs Parliamentary approval, will said DUP be allowed to vote?

    Good point and I have no idea
  • eekeek Posts: 28,779
    Charles said:

    eek said:

    slightly off topic but Yellowsubmarine was talking about personal debt in the last thread and I pulled this information out last night when checking something

    If you want to know why we voted for Brexit everything you need to know can be seen in the following 4 facts
    In 2004 the average gross household disposable income per Capita in County Durham was £12232 in 2015 it was £15496 (from https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/regionalaccounts/grossdisposablehouseholdincome/datasets/regionalgrossdisposablehouseholdincomegdhibylocalauthorityintheuk)
    Unfortunately in 2015 after inflation you needed £16,940.45 to purchase £12232 of goods at 2004 prices... (from http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/default.aspx)

    Which is why the change in the personal allowance was so important
    Given that I'm talking about disposable income (i.e. after tax) the best you can say is that the changes in personal allowances wasn't enough.
  • ZeitgeistZeitgeist Posts: 43
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41313312

    Britain one of the biggest consumers of extremist material online in the world thanks to Blair's open borders. Now Yvette Cooper and Jeremy Corbyn want to let in even more from the Middle East. They do not have the interests of the British first in mind.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,379
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    , It is fairly fundamental to negotiation that we do not get to pick the other team.

    Macron and Merkel are not going to knife their chief negotiator. That is the sort of thing the Brits do.
    But they do not have a negotiator. Barnier and Juncker have no intention of negotiating
    And they do not appear to have any consideration of what result would be best for Germany and France.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OldKingCole said:

    Toytally O/t.... although it might turn out not to be. If it is finally decided that the monetary deal with the DUP needs Parliamentary approval, will said DUP be allowed to vote?

    Of course.

    All money bills need Parliamentary approval and the DUP deal will most likely simply be included in the budget - which of course the DUP gets to vote on. There won't be a separate DUP-only money bill.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    The Guardian has moved on from pulling down statues of Robert E. Lee & causing Cecil Rhodes to fall.

    http://tinyurl.com/y8l9aqlg

    Now, we need to be pulling down statues of H G Wells, and renaming the Crick Institute and the James Watson Institute.

    Goodness knows what will happen when the Guardian discovers that Einstein was a serial philanderer.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    YellowSubmarine said:

    This is what happens when you don't triangulate after a 52%/48% referendum result. Not only did May do too little too late to separate Brexit its self from the Leave phenomenon she ramped things up. " Citizens of Nowhere " " The promise of Brexit ".

    We're an old country. Our institutions are at least a thousand years old. Our church in England is 1400 years old. We're approaching the Bimillennium of our capital. Yet this Brexit/Leave stuff has got as bad as the quasi religious Exodus mythology in US politics. But the US is a much younger country, is vastly more religious and was partly born out of an Exodus.

    Any sucessful Brexit involved calming down, planning and ditching most of the unhinged mythology of the Leave event. It would have been mushy bitter compromise but would have been deliverable.

    Instead entirely driven by the internal politics of the Tory Party we've engaged in the world's most complex negotiation as a form of national psychotherapy. The Therapist who is 9 times our size and looking at the clock is increasingly irritated and bewildered.

    But unusually the status quo isn't an option. Usually this sort of psychological dysfunction leads to paralysis. But A50 means one of the options definitely happens by default in 18 months time.



    Yep, the mistake was pretending this was a huge victory on Day 1. It was not.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    edited September 2017
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    OldKingCole said:

    Toytally O/t.... although it might turn out not to be. If it is finally decided that the monetary deal with the DUP needs Parliamentary approval, will said DUP be allowed to vote?

    Good point and I have no idea
    Yes.

    Because we don't live in a la la land.

    They're MPs, and the money is for NI. Do you think Welsh MPs don't vote on issues where there is money for Wales?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    Scott_P said:

    @JolyonMaugham: "All this 'if you jump off a cliff and spread your wings you'll find yourself flying into the blue yonder,' that's not a policy": Ken Clarke

    Icarus falls.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    I agree with that - she is hosting a joint conference with Macron in New York on terrorism later this week

    This thread is the same as ever with those wanting to remain all doom and gloom - I cannot see any of our politicians doing any better at present. Certainly not Starmer or labour as they are as split as anyone and if put in the spotlight would inherit the same impases.

    Ironically, it looks as if Boris has united the party behind Theresa and the Florence speech is the biggest moment for her and the country. I have no idea at this stage what she is going to say and how she delivers it but she will either succeed or fail depending on the response to it, not just in the UK but in Europe. She is raising the negotiations to head of states level

    Let both sides of the argument calm down and realise compromise will happen
    Nothing T says on Friday will change anything is my guess. Because the fundamentals won't change. Dave C opened Pandora's Box.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    , It is fairly fundamental to negotiation that we do not get to pick the other team.

    Macron and Merkel are not going to knife their chief negotiator. That is the sort of thing the Brits do.
    But they do not have a negotiator. Barnier and Juncker have no intention of negotiating
    They have parked the bus fairly effectively, but that is their agreed position, ratified by all the EU27 including France and Germany. It is not going to change because Theresa no mates wants it to change.

    The default is WTO hard Brexit on 30 March 2019. Our team have not prepared for that.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    YellowSubmarine said:

    This is what happens when you don't triangulate after a 52%/48% referendum result. Not only did May do too little too late to separate Brexit its self from the Leave phenomenon she ramped things up. " Citizens of Nowhere " " The promise of Brexit ".

    We're an old country. Our institutions are at least a thousand years old. Our church in England is 1400 years old. We're approaching the Bimillennium of our capital. Yet this Brexit/Leave stuff has got as bad as the quasi religious Exodus mythology in US politics. But the US is a much younger country, is vastly more religious and was partly born out of an Exodus.

    Any sucessful Brexit involved calming down, planning and ditching most of the unhinged mythology of the Leave event. It would have been mushy bitter compromise but would have been deliverable.

    Instead entirely driven by the internal politics of the Tory Party we've engaged in the world's most complex negotiation as a form of national psychotherapy. The Therapist who is 9 times our size and looking at the clock is increasingly irritated and bewildered.

    But unusually the status quo isn't an option. Usually this sort of psychological dysfunction leads to paralysis. But A50 means one of the options definitely happens by default in 18 months time.




    Because those who are used to winning should be able to ignore those used to losing, right, even when the roles are reversed?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,399
    Alanbrooke said:

    FF43 said:

    What's Theresa May going to do differently from David Davis? He has all along been hamstrung by the contradictions of Mrs May's positions, which are those of the Leave Campaign.

    You either accept what the EU demands, in which case it raises not for the first time the question of why we are going through all this pain, or you reject them entirely, which guarantees Brexit failure.

    I sincerely hope your employer never lets you near a negotiation
    I can say with confidence that my employer would never get itself into such unfavourable position in the first place, nor would it make a strategic decision based on a single word, not would it reject the current setup without considering alternatives or at least a general direction. It would not be so profoundly stupid

    Do you sincerely believe May, Davis and/or Johnson are going to pull off a brilliant negotiation? Davis did, but he's being sidelined.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    YellowSubmarine said:

    This is what happens when you don't triangulate after a 52%/48% referendum result. Not only did May do too little too late to separate Brexit its self from the Leave phenomenon she ramped things up. " Citizens of Nowhere " " The promise of Brexit ".

    We're an old country. Our institutions are at least a thousand years old. Our church in England is 1400 years old. We're approaching the Bimillennium of our capital. Yet this Brexit/Leave stuff has got as bad as the quasi religious Exodus mythology in US politics. But the US is a much younger country, is vastly more religious and was partly born out of an Exodus.

    Any sucessful Brexit involved calming down, planning and ditching most of the unhinged mythology of the Leave event. It would have been mushy bitter compromise but would have been deliverable.

    Instead entirely driven by the internal politics of the Tory Party we've engaged in the world's most complex negotiation as a form of national psychotherapy. The Therapist who is 9 times our size and looking at the clock is increasingly irritated and bewildered.

    But unusually the status quo isn't an option. Usually this sort of psychological dysfunction leads to paralysis. But A50 means one of the options definitely happens by default in 18 months time.



    9x? The rest of the EU is less than 4x the size of the UK economy and will only be just over 10% of world GDP when we leave. They are losing more than 20% of their entire output.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    OldKingCole said:

    Alistair said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    He left a useless person I'm charge of the home office. Big black mark against him.
    Underlines the view I had of the Coalition;
    Clegg should have insisted on one of the Great Offices, and AFAIR nothing was promised to May, as it was to Osborne and Hague.

    You can, of cpourse, wonder as to how good Clegg would have been........
    As soon as I heard the Lib Dems did not have a Great Office I knew they were totally fucked.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    DavidL said:



    9x? The rest of the EU is less than 4x the size of the UK economy and will only be just over 10% of world GDP when we leave. They are losing more than 20% of their entire output.

    Where are you getting that from?

    IMF (wiki) says 16-20 trillion for EU (22.8% of global GDP), UK is 2.62 trillion.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,941
    Mortimer said:

    YellowSubmarine said:

    This is what happens when you don't triangulate after a 52%/48% referendum result. Not only did May do too little too late to separate Brexit its self from the Leave phenomenon she ramped things up. " Citizens of Nowhere " " The promise of Brexit ".

    We're an old country. Our institutions are at least a thousand years old. Our church in England is 1400 years old. We're approaching the Bimillennium of our capital. Yet this Brexit/Leave stuff has got as bad as the quasi religious Exodus mythology in US politics. But the US is a much younger country, is vastly more religious and was partly born out of an Exodus.

    Any sucessful Brexit involved calming down, planning and ditching most of the unhinged mythology of the Leave event. It would have been mushy bitter compromise but would have been deliverable.

    Instead entirely driven by the internal politics of the Tory Party we've engaged in the world's most complex negotiation as a form of national psychotherapy. The Therapist who is 9 times our size and looking at the clock is increasingly irritated and bewildered.

    But unusually the status quo isn't an option. Usually this sort of psychological dysfunction leads to paralysis. But A50 means one of the options definitely happens by default in 18 months time.




    Because those who are used to winning should be able to ignore those used to losing, right, even when the roles are reversed?
    Leavers won, but only just. It was pretty much a draw. Mr submarine is correct, the government should have taken the 48% into account.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    OldKingCole said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    He certainly doesn't look like as though he can put together a harmonious team.

    David Cameron was by some way the best manager of a governmental team that I recall as a Prime Minister in my lifetime. It's astonishing that those who knew him seem to have learned so little from him.

    Cameron was hands off and didn't reshuffle excessively (limited by coalition there).
    But the fact that he ended up with a massive NHS reorganisation he (reportedly) didn't want is pretty damning...
    If that’s true, then he’s even further ahead in tbe Lord North Chase!
    "David Cameron did not understand the controversial reforms and George Osborne regrets not having prevented what Downing Street officials call a “huge strategic error”, it can be revealed."

    Given that the NHS is probably in the top 3 most important political issues - I'd say this is a pretty serious case taking your eye off the ball...

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nhs-reforms-our-worst-mistake-tories-admit-tqs6tz55mvk
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Zeitgeist said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41313312

    Britain one of the biggest consumers of extremist material online in the world thanks to Blair's open borders. Now Yvette Cooper and Jeremy Corbyn want to let in even more from the Middle East. They do not have the interests of the British first in mind.

    Round spherical objects! Of course there wasn't any singing of republican songs round many pubs and bars in London between the 70's and 90's, and there certainly wasn't any anarchist books and materials being sold in small bookshops in the 60's and it was all a just a figment of my imagination.

    And to remind you, May was in charge of the Home Office from 2010 with orders to cut immigration down to the 10's of thousands - and didn't that work out well? May was also in charge while the Police force was cut by 23,000 since 2010, and May has been part of the Government that has blocked wage rises in the name of Austerity (a political policy, not a sensible economic one), leaving many serving officers financially much worse off than they were in 2010.

    While you have the wisdom to blame people who aren't involved in decisions for the incompetence of those who are.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,941
    Stanislav Petrov, who averted possible nuclear war, dies at 77
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41314948
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    logical_song said:

    Mortimer said:

    YellowSubmarine said:

    This is what happens when you don't triangulate after a 52%/48% referendum result. Not only did May do too little too late to separate Brexit its self from the Leave phenomenon she ramped things up. " Citizens of Nowhere " " The promise of Brexit ".

    We're an old country. Our institutions are at least a thousand years old. Our church in England is 1400 years old. We're approaching the Bimillennium of our capital. Yet this Brexit/Leave stuff has got as bad as the quasi religious Exodus mythology in US politics. But the US is a much younger country, is vastly more religious and was partly born out of an Exodus.

    Any sucessful Brexit involved calming down, planning and ditching most of the unhinged mythology of the Leave event. It would have been mushy bitter compromise but would have been deliverable.

    Instead entirely driven by the internal politics of the Tory Party we've engaged in the world's most complex negotiation as a form of national psychotherapy. The Therapist who is 9 times our size and looking at the clock is increasingly irritated and bewildered.

    But unusually the status quo isn't an option. Usually this sort of psychological dysfunction leads to paralysis. But A50 means one of the options definitely happens by default in 18 months time.




    Because those who are used to winning should be able to ignore those used to losing, right, even when the roles are reversed?
    Leavers won, but only just. It was pretty much a draw. Mr submarine is correct, the government should have taken the 48% into account.
    Remainers have been winning for 4 decades; now the pendulum has swung, they call a loss, one that lies almost entirely at their feet, a draw.

    Unspoffable.
  • ZeitgeistZeitgeist Posts: 43
    OchEye said:

    Zeitgeist said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41313312

    Britain one of the biggest consumers of extremist material online in the world thanks to Blair's open borders. Now Yvette Cooper and Jeremy Corbyn want to let in even more from the Middle East. They do not have the interests of the British first in mind.

    Round spherical objects! Of course there wasn't any singing of republican songs round many pubs and bars in London between the 70's and 90's, and there certainly wasn't any anarchist books and materials being sold in small bookshops in the 60's and it was all a just a figment of my imagination.

    And to remind you, May was in charge of the Home Office from 2010 with orders to cut immigration down to the 10's of thousands - and didn't that work out well? May was also in charge while the Police force was cut by 23,000 since 2010, and May has been part of the Government that has blocked wage rises in the name of Austerity (a political policy, not a sensible economic one), leaving many serving officers financially much worse off than they were in 2010.

    While you have the wisdom to blame people who aren't involved in decisions for the incompetence of those who are.
    Non-EU immigration, especially from Pakistan and Bangladesh, took off under Labour. It fell by a third under May, even though she was limited by the greater number here marrying out. Now Corbyn wants to scrap the family income limit so more people can move here at the expense of the British taxpayer. Cooper wants to take in more like the Parsons Green bomber. They are a direct threat to British security.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,399
    SandyRentool said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    , It is fairly fundamental to negotiation that we do not get to pick the other team.

    Macron and Merkel are not going to knife their chief negotiator. That is the sort of thing the Brits do.
    But they do not have a negotiator. Barnier and Juncker have no intention of negotiating
    And they do not appear to have any consideration of what result would be best for Germany and France.
    That's a misunderstanding. Barnier is tasked with delivering the consensus position of the EU27. We may or may not agree, but that position is the one France and Germany believe to be in their interests.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,849
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    SandyRentool said:

    May needs to sit down with the two people who actually matter - Merkel and Macron - and agree what is going to happen. M&M can then tell the Brussels egos to get in line and do what they are told.

    , It is fairly fundamental to negotiation that we do not get to pick the other team.

    Macron and Merkel are not going to knife their chief negotiator. That is the sort of thing the Brits do.
    But they do not have a negotiator. Barnier and Juncker have no intention of negotiating
    They have parked the bus fairly effectively, but that is their agreed position, ratified by all the EU27 including France and Germany. It is not going to change because Theresa no mates wants it to change.

    The default is WTO hard Brexit on 30 March 2019. Our team have not prepared for that.
    The bypass the EU and deal with the heads of government strategy has never, ever worked and it won't here.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    Mortimer said:

    logical_song said:

    Mortimer said:

    YellowSubmarine said:

    This is what happens when you don't triangulate after a 52%/48% referendum result. Not only did May do too little too late to separate Brexit its self from the Leave phenomenon she ramped things up. " Citizens of Nowhere " " The promise of Brexit ".

    We're an old country. Our institutions are at least a thousand years old. Our church in England is 1400 years old. We're approaching the Bimillennium of our capital. Yet this Brexit/Leave stuff has got as bad as the quasi religious Exodus mythology in US politics. But the US is a much younger country, is vastly more religious and was partly born out of an Exodus.

    Any sucessful Brexit involved calming down, planning and ditching most of the unhinged mythology of the Leave event. It would have been mushy bitter compromise but would have been deliverable.

    Instead entirely driven by the internal politics of the Tory Party we've engaged in the world's most complex negotiation as a form of national psychotherapy. The Therapist who is 9 times our size and looking at the clock is increasingly irritated and bewildered.

    But unusually the status quo isn't an option. Usually this sort of psychological dysfunction leads to paralysis. But A50 means one of the options definitely happens by default in 18 months time.




    Because those who are used to winning should be able to ignore those used to losing, right, even when the roles are reversed?
    Leavers won, but only just. It was pretty much a draw. Mr submarine is correct, the government should have taken the 48% into account.
    Remainers have been winning for 4 decades; now the pendulum has swung, they call a loss, one that lies almost entirely at their feet, a draw.

    Unspoffable.
    It was a loss. But it is also a reasonable expectation that the incoming administration should seek to govern for the whole country. Pretty much as any new government says it will after the GE (says it will, mind - not saying it does).
This discussion has been closed.