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  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited September 2017

    I do see it as a positive but I respect your alternative view. We will see in time
    Indeed. Let us hope that I am wrong and you are right because the other way round ....
  • I like Starbucks coffee. I'm a big fan of their caramel macchiato and toffee nut latte that they do during the Christmas period. Starbucks' tea is pretty terrible though. Costa is streets ahead of them in that regard.

    Pret-A-Manager appears to be the go place for middle-class city workers. I'm not into the food offered there at all, so I don't go there.
  • They appear to have very, very little practical experience in areas where they should have some. Almost none of them seem to have any disciplined approach to coding, software development or problem analysis. "Agile" is the rage and seems to mean (to them) "keep running it until it works then stick it live".

    We tried retraining a couple in-house but they lacked fundamental basics and just programmed themselves into holes that they they spent days digging themselves out of to deliver poor, unreliable solutions. When we showed them what they should have done they were baffled.

    Oddly enough, the very best trainee we had through the door was a 17 year old that we took on a A-level placement scheme, but he did not want to work in IT, he wanted to go to do a Business degree. He was streets ahead of the graduates.

    I was seeing this as long ago as 20-25 years back. I was fairly convinced that some of the 'good' universities were teaching all the wrong things to prospective software engineers.

    I'm sad that the situation may not have improved.
  • Starbucks is diabolical. Their coffee is disgusting. Burnt gerbil stuff. The food is even worse.

    Surprised no-one has mentioned Pret A Manger. Coffee is very good, much better than the other chains, and the bigger ones are great for business meetings.

    Shout out to Angel Espresso, on the Pentonville Road. Used to be my local, and great for chemistry interviews with job candidates.

    Edit: Yes, McDonald's is not half bad for coffee.

    I think Pret a Manger has the best choice of food of any coffee chain. Not sure about the coffee as I always have the Peach Green Tea.
  • Yorkcity said:

    I like that big g.No it is been driven but they are fighting over the steering wheel.
    I do think a sense of humour helps these days
  • HYUFD said:

    If the Tories win the next general election Corbyn would probably resign though and a more moderate leader may then replace him, Umunna, Cooper etc. You are right that the last time the Tories won most seats 4 general elections in a row they were out for 13 years after losing the next general election

    It's hard to see Corbyn staying if Labour doesn't win next time, but even harder to see who would succeed him. I doubt it will be Chuka. My guess is that it will be someone from the softish left as there does not seem to be any genuine, electable Corbynite out there to take the flame forward. So much of Corbyn's support is linked to him personally, rather than to a slavish devotion to his beliefs. That makes his position very strong, but the far-left's generally quite weak - hence their obsession with gaining control of internal levers of power.

  • Corbyn has been relentlessly attacked by the media and the Tories for a good while now, and it didn't stop what happened in June. The voters who the Tories need to win over don't pay attention to the Tory Press and the Conservatives are undermining their image with their incompetence now. Why would any of Corbyn's 2017 voters listen to what an incompetence government has to say?

    I doubt that those who didn't vote Tory in 2017 will see the government as 'moderating' Corbyn's extremes. Many of those who voted for Corbyn are tax payers - and it is them which voted for Corbyn's manifesto promising to scrap tuition fees and it is many of them who don't want their kids coming out of uni with debt.
    So they want the 60% who do not go to Uni and end up earning less pay more tax for those who do go.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,189

    I think Pret a Manger has the best choice of food of any coffee chain. Not sure about the coffee as I always have the Peach Green Tea.
    Their filter coffee is also a bargain. Got me through many an early morning and long night when I was working in consulting.....
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited September 2017
    @HYUFD If Tory party members are really thinking like you are, then the Tories really are doomed.

    Of course the Tories need to win over voters. The idea that this situation is remotely desirable for the party is hilarious. They did not call a GE to lose their majority and be put into a situation where they have to rely on the DUP to cobble together a knife-edge majority. This situation has meant that they've had to drop much of the agenda in that they wanted to go forward with in government and instead have to cede ground to Labour. Parties want to get into government so that they can implement their agenda - right now the Tories are a party in government but not in power.

    And while Corbyn needs to win over voters, he's in much better situation to do so than the Tories are. The Conservatives at this stage have very little ace cards over Corbyn and that's situation looks set to get worse.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017
    edited September 2017
    Deleted.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,340
    Yorkcity said:

    Who is driving the car to Brexit and what type of car is it ? It looks to me the car has L plates on and dual controls and about to go on the motorway for the first time.

    It's a P reg Rover 200 with an odd coloured door. The creature trying to drive it is a human centipede formed from Boris, DD and Fox. (In that order). Cheering leave voters line the road and paw at their genitals through their grubby tracksuits.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,838
    I think Mercedes just destroyed Hamilton's chances of winning this race.
  • @HYUFD If Tory party members are really thinking like you are, then the Tories really are doomed.

    Of course the Tories need to win over voters. The idea that this situation is remotely desirable for the party is hilarious. They did not call a GE to lose their majority and be put into a situation where they have to rely on the DUP to cobble together a knife-edge majority. This situation has meant that they've had to drop much of the agenda in that they wanted to go forward with in government and instead have to cede ground to Labour. Parties want to get into government so that they can implement their agenda - right now the Tories are a party in government but not in power.

    And while Corbyn needs to win over voters, he's in much better situation to do so than the Tories are. The Conservatives at this stage have very little ace cards over Corbyn and that's situation looks set to get worse.

    You are entitled to your view but I genuinely believe we are at or near peak Corbyn
  • HYUFD said:

    The Tories don't need to win over any voters, just hold all those who voted for them in June as they currently have a majority with DUP support. It is Corbyn who needs to win Tory voters to get Labour as largest party let alone win a majority.
    You make it sound as if June represented the Tories' glass floor. Although it clearly didn't fool everyone, I suspect many were impressed by 'Strong and Stable' and felt that Theresa was an optimal pre-Brexit solution. But if the Tories decide to go cliff-edge (as seems likely) then any obligation for the electorate to endorse nuance, caution and steadiness vanishes. Many will just say 'what the hell' and give Jezza a run.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    I was seeing this as long ago as 20-25 years back. I was fairly convinced that some of the 'good' universities were teaching all the wrong things to prospective software engineers.

    I'm sad that the situation may not have improved.
    They seem to think that if you follow a methodology and implement via a framework then success is guaranteed. Like you I used to see the same problems 20 odd years ago except back then it was SSADM and OOP... everyone babbled on about singleton instances or polymorphic coding or role/function matrices but actually finding people who could turn out workable, maintainable code was difficult.

    Getting anyone to use abstraction or refinement of the problem as a basis for the structure of the solution was an anathema to most of them. They seemed to prefer sitting at the keyboard and bashing out lines of code without any clear idea of the problem they were trying to solve.
  • I don't think I've been in McDonalds in five years, so I can't comment. I have heard others say that the coffee in McDonalds is surprisingly good though.
    At McDonald's and Burger King in Edinburgh they charged 5p for paper bags (as opposed to plastic). Is that just within the city or Scotland-wide?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Did anyone bet on most laps led being by Bernd Maylander? ;)
  • They seem to think that if you follow a methodology and implement via a framework then success is guaranteed. Like you I used to see the same problems 20 odd years ago except back then it was SSADM and OOP... everyone babbled on about singleton instances or polymorphic coding or role/function matrices but actually finding people who could turn out workable, maintainable code was difficult.

    Getting anyone to use abstraction or refinement of the problem as a basis for the structure of the solution was an anathema to most of them. They seemed to prefer sitting at the keyboard and bashing out lines of code without any clear idea of the problem they were trying to solve.
    They seemed to prefer sitting at the keyboard and bashing out lines of code without any clear idea of the problem they were trying to solve.

    If you paid by results instead of by the hour...

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    edited September 2017

    You are entitled to your view but I genuinely believe we are at or near peak Corbyn
    Sadly not.
    As it stands, all things being equal, Corbyn will win the next election.

    The Tories have no economic policy, nothing to offer anyone under the age of 45 (not just 25), and are not even united on the crisis of the day, Brexit.

    Even moderates are reluctantly concluding that Corbynism is the only way to disrupt what looks to be an exhausted economic and political settlement.
  • Are there any odds on a by-election in Uxbridge?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    I don't know anything about computers, so can't comment on the quality of graduates, but what I do know is that even now demand far outstrips supply. Our IT team is increasingly non-British and very fluid. We're outsourcing a lot more than we used to because it's the only way we can manage. And we're not sending work to UK-based businesses. Brexit is clearly going to intensify that process.

    I agree and IT is a fairly universal discipline with the same tools and frameworks available anywhere in the world. There are no geographic boundaries to the supply of IT skills.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141
    edited September 2017

    You make it sound as if June represented the Tories' glass floor. Although it clearly didn't fool everyone, I suspect many were impressed by 'Strong and Stable' and felt that Theresa was an optimal pre-Brexit solution. But if the Tories decide to go cliff-edge (as seems likely) then any obligation for the electorate to endorse nuance, caution and steadiness vanishes. Many will just say 'what the hell' and give Jezza a run.
    41% are still voting Tory with Opinium today barely unchanged from June.

    43% with ORB last week put immigration control over free trade as the priority for the Brexit talks, so 41 to 43% would vote for a hard Brexit strategy in 2019/20 in a general election soon after Brexit talks at least in the short term
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited September 2017

    They seemed to prefer sitting at the keyboard and bashing out lines of code without any clear idea of the problem they were trying to solve.

    If you paid by results instead of by the hour...

    We DO pay "by results". If you consistently fail to produce working code we fire you.

    Also, an hour spent understanding what you are supposed to be doing often shortens and simplifies the work to be done
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    It's hard to see Corbyn staying if Labour doesn't win next time, but even harder to see who would succeed him. I doubt it will be Chuka. My guess is that it will be someone from the softish left as there does not seem to be any genuine, electable Corbynite out there to take the flame forward. So much of Corbyn's support is linked to him personally, rather than to a slavish devotion to his beliefs. That makes his position very strong, but the far-left's generally quite weak - hence their obsession with gaining control of internal levers of power.

    The Labour members poll from June on who they want to succeed Corbyn had Cooper tied with McDonnell on 27% with Umunna and Starmer just a point behind on 26%
  • Sadly not.
    As it stands, all things being equal, Corbyn will win the next election.

    The Tories have no economic policy, nothing to offer anyone under the age of 45 (not just 25), and are not even united on the crisis of the day, Brexit.

    Even moderates are reluctantly concluding that Corbynism is the only way to disrupt what looks to be an exhausted economic and political settlement.
    Not evidenced in any of the recent polling. There are far too many imponderables to come to any conclusion about the next GE but I am far from convinced Corbyn is labour's answer
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pret coffee is absolutely disgusting. It is horrific.

    It makes Starbucks seem drinkable.

    Their sandwiches and other food are very good.

    However, their coffee is a crime.
  • HYUFD said:

    The Labour members poll from June on who they want to succeed Corbyn had Cooper tied with McDonnell on 27% with Umunna and Starmer just a point behind on 26%

    A lot will depend on who Momentum goes for. Their candidates now win all party-wide, balloted Labour elections. They won't go for Chuka. Of those you name, only Starmer is likely to stand.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    @HYUFD If Tory party members are really thinking like you are, then the Tories really are doomed.

    Of course the Tories need to win over voters. The idea that this situation is remotely desirable for the party is hilarious. They did not call a GE to lose their majority and be put into a situation where they have to rely on the DUP to cobble together a knife-edge majority. This situation has meant that they've had to drop much of the agenda in that they wanted to go forward with in government and instead have to cede ground to Labour. Parties want to get into government so that they can implement their agenda - right now the Tories are a party in government but not in power.

    And while Corbyn needs to win over voters, he's in much better situation to do so than the Tories are. The Conservatives at this stage have very little ace cards over Corbyn and that's situation looks set to get worse.

    Actually Corbyn doing better than expected last time may well have given the Tories one more term in power.

    As Corbyn sympathisers like you are now going for the 'one more heave' strategy you are making no effort to appeal to the 42% who voted Tory just consolidating the 40% you got and the current polls reflect that. If the Tories had got a majority last time and Labour replaced Corbyn with a more electable and moderate leader the Tories would probably be in a more precarious position
  • NEW THREAD

  • HYUFD said:

    Actually Corbyn doing better than expected last time may well have given the Tories one more term in power.

    As Corbyn sympathisers like you are now going for the 'one more heave' strategy you are making no effort to appeal to the 42% who voted Tory just consolidating the 40% you got and the current polls reflect that. If the Tories had got a majority last time and Labour replaced Corbyn with a more electable and moderate leader the Tories would probably be in a more precarious position
    Agree with this and would delete 'probably'
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    A lot will depend on who Momentum goes for. Their candidates now win all party-wide, balloted Labour elections. They won't go for Chuka. Of those you name, only Starmer is likely to stand.

    The Momentum candidate got only a quarter of the votes in that poll and if Corbyn loses and resigns Momentum's energy and raison d'etre goes with him.

    Once Corbyn has gone both Umunna and Cooper would probably stand as well as Starmer
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I'm not a coffee drinker (can't stand the stuff) but a friend of mine who is recommends McDonalds. Can that be right?
    Yes, it is good. far better than most takeaways and cheaper too.

    I always drink it black, but they will put in a couple of icecubes to cool it if you ask.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    Agree with this and would delete 'probably'
    You could say even certainly yes
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382








    A lot will depend on who Momentum goes for. Their candidates now win all party-wide, balloted Labour elections. They won't go for Chuka. Of those you name, only Starmer is likely to stand.



    I have had a punt on Jon Ashworth .Seems one of the best in the shadow cabinet.However my main bet is Emily Thornberry who had a good GE campaign as it is about time they had a permanent female leader.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited September 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Actually Corbyn doing better than expected last time may well have given the Tories one more term in power.

    As Corbyn sympathisers like you are now going for the 'one more heave' strategy you are making no effort to appeal to the 42% who voted Tory just consolidating the 40% you got and the current polls reflect that. If the Tories had got a majority last time and Labour replaced Corbyn with a more electable and moderate leader the Tories would probably be in a more precarious position
    LOL I'm not a Corbyn sympathiser. I've been pretty critical of him on here for the most part.

    Your first point runs on the line that people voted Labour only because they thought the party weren't going to win. Given the degree of support for many of Corbyn's policies and the rise in his personal ratings, this is doubtful.

    I'm not going one for one heave strategy. It's Momentum and Corbyn that are doing that. And it's not true they are making no effort to appeal to Tories - Momentum/Labour activists are already campaigning in Tory areas now trying to build up support. They were recently in Grant Shapps' constituency.

    This idea that a Blair style Labour leader would have done better than Corbyn at this stage is foolhardy. There is deep dissatisfaction with the current economic status quo, a Blairite centrist who supports that status quo isn't going to gain as much support as someone who challenges it. That is why Corbyn did so well among under 45s.

    The polls also told us a few months before the GE that May was going to win a big/significant majority. Opinium and many other polls with the exception of Survation and YouGov also told us the Tories were on course to win a majority and look how that turned out.
  • HYUFD said:

    The Momentum candidate got only a quarter of the votes in that poll and if Corbyn loses and resigns Momentum's energy and raison d'etre goes with him.

    Once Corbyn has gone both Umunna and Cooper would probably stand as well as Starmer

    In actual Labour-wide ballots candidates endorsed by Momentum always win.

  • I agree and IT is a fairly universal discipline with the same tools and frameworks available anywhere in the world. There are no geographic boundaries to the supply of IT skills.
    Yet British IT graduates are paying £30k for a university education which is failing them.

    Something is going very wrong somewhere.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    In actual Labour-wide ballots candidates endorsed by Momentum always win.

    As Corbyn is leader and the same poll put Corbyn clearly in front of all potential rivals, once Corbyn goes Momentum's power and influence goes too
  • HYUFD said:

    As Corbyn is leader and the same poll put Corbyn clearly in front of all potential rivals, once Corbyn goes Momentum's power and influence goes too

    Hmmmm

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,141

    LOL I'm not a Corbyn sympathiser. I've been pretty critical of him on here for the most part.

    Your first point runs on the line that people voted Labour only because they thought the party weren't going to win. Given the degree of support for many of Corbyn's policies and the rise in his personal ratings, this is doubtful.

    I'm not going one for one heave strategy. It's Momentum and Corbyn that are doing that. And it's not true they are making no effort to appeal to Tories - Momentum/Labour activists are already campaigning in Tory areas now trying to build up support. They were recently in Grant Shapps' constituency.

    This idea that a Blair style Labour leader would have done better than Corbyn at this stage is foolhardy. There is deep dissatisfaction with the current economic status quo, a Blairite centrist who supports that status quo isn't going to gain as much support as someone who challenges it. That is why Corbyn did so well among under 45s.

    The polls also told us a few months before the GE that May was going to win a big/significant majority. Opinium and many other polls with the exception of Survation and YouGov also told us the Tories were on course to win a majority and look how that turned out.
    You are an anti Tory so that is Corbyn sympathiser enough.

    Even today Corbyn can do no more than the the Tories so my point holds, there is a big anti Corbyn vote.

    Momentum and Corbyn run Labour at the moment and there were plenty of Momentum activists in Tory held seats last time too, it was failure to appeal to Tories in policy terms which kept most of those Tory seats Tory, hence the Tories won almost 60 more seats than Labour.

    A Blair rehash is not needed, a more moderate leader who does not want to turn the UK into Venezuela is all that is required, the Tories got 42% (their highest voteshare since 1987) for a reason even if Corbyn United the left behind him

    Yougov this week also had it tied, Survation has a Labour score similar to other pollsters just a slightly higher UKIP score at the expense of the Tories
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