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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : September 14th 2017

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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,525
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    Not entirely convinced by that. The German Greens are not our Greens. They support Merkel on many issues. UK Greens are more like Die Linke.
    Yes but there is no way the CSU would agree to a deal with the Greens ahead of the AfD, especially as their conservative base in Bavaria would erupt. A minority government is more likely than a full coalition with the Greens
    Any deal with AfD would eliminate the FDP from coalition as well as splitting the CDU. Merkel would not contemplate it given their attitude to her and her policies. Dare say much of Bavaria would erupt too.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    So did the CDU/CSU get as many seats as they did because the FDP and the AFD just missed the 5% threshold?
    Yes.
    Well I think one thing is for sure. The government will lose seats. Lots of them.
  • Expense account rail update:

    ' Work to bring HS2 to Sheffield could leave commuters facing more than five years of disruption, according to a presentation seen by the BBC.

    According to the PowerPoint presentation, provided as part of a Freedom of Information request, the "station footprint would expand beyond current boundary to encroach the tram and road network".

    It adds: "Such an outcome is anticipated to drive infrastructure costs and lead to disruption of at least five years, requiring reconfiguration of both tram and road networks."

    The documents also suggests that to make way for HS2 one train an hour could be removed from the Dearne Valley line and impact on journey times between Sheffield and Leeds. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-41277560

    I did the full length of the Dearne Valley via Pontefract Baghill back in February - only two return trips a day :)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    My dad has just asked, "what would happen in Germany if no party got more than 5% of the vote?"
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    Not entirely convinced by that. The German Greens are not our Greens. They support Merkel on many issues. UK Greens are more like Die Linke.
    Yes but there is no way the CSU would agree to a deal with the Greens ahead of the AfD, especially as their conservative base in Bavaria would erupt. A minority government is more likely than a full coalition with the Greens
    This is just wrong. The Merkel and the CDU have said that they will never form a coalition which includes the AfD
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    Not entirely convinced by that. The German Greens are not our Greens. They support Merkel on many issues. UK Greens are more like Die Linke.
    Yes but there is no way the CSU would agree to a deal with the Greens ahead of the AfD, especially as their conservative base in Bavaria would erupt. A minority government is more likely than a full coalition with the Greens
    Any deal with AfD would eliminate the FDP from coalition as well as splitting the CDU. Merkel would not contemplate it given their attitude to her and her policies. Dare say much of Bavaria would erupt too.
    I did not say there would be a deal with the AfD instead, just a CDU/CSU minority government is more likely than any coalition deal with the Greens
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    If there was ever a time in the Bundestag for a confidence and supply government it was in 2013 when CDU were 5 seats short of 50%.

    In Germany they just don't even consider a minority government.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,878
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    Not entirely convinced by that. The German Greens are not our Greens. They support Merkel on many issues. UK Greens are more like Die Linke.
    Yes but there is no way the CSU would agree to a deal with the Greens ahead of the AfD, especially as their conservative base in Bavaria would erupt. A minority government is more likely than a full coalition with the Greens
    You seem to have missed the extent to which the AfD has changed. Four years ago, it was run by the former MD of IBM in Germany. Its platform was that the Euro didn't work for Germany because Germany was on the hook for the debts of the Greeks (and others). Now, this was in breach of the cold war consensus on Europe in Germany, but it was certainly a respectable party that grouped with the Conservatives in the European Parliament. This AfD was a natural ally of the CSU (who are the most Eurosceptic of the mainstream German parties)

    Two years ago the leadership of the AfD changed and Frauke Petry took over. She took the party in an anti-Muslim direction, calling for Minarets to be banned. Under her watch AfD spokesman Björn Höcke has called for the holocaust monument in Berlin to be removed calling it a "monument of shame".

    In 2013, when the AfD was a "Euro"-sceptic party, it didn't stand in Bavaria. In 2018, now it is more an anti-Muslim party, it will be standing.

    Under the current AfD leadership, they are very much "beyond the pail" for the German political establishment, in a way that simply wasn't the case five years ago. I will offer you generous odds on them being in a coalition following the elections this year if you like.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Under the current AfD leadership, they are very much "beyond the pail" for the German political establishment, in a way that simply wasn't the case five years ago. I will offer you generous odds on them being in a coalition following the elections this year if you like.

    You beat me to it. The AfD are now outside the spectrum of acceptable politics and the CSU would choose the Greens over them every day of the week.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    So did the CDU/CSU get as many seats as they did because the FDP and the AFD just missed the 5% threshold?
    The unusual thing with the 2013 election was that almost 15% of the vote went to parties who didn't enter the Bundestag, meaning that the four parties that did, got a much bigger proportion of seats than their vote share.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    I'm guessing you don't talk politics with any Germans!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,525
    tlg86 said:

    My dad has just asked, "what would happen in Germany if no party got more than 5% of the vote?"

    Not sure. They do have FPTP constituencies like us. They make up the proportions by a list system. If no party got the threshold I would suggest a political and constitutional crisis would have already happened.
  • What does Angela Merkel have to do to put the Germans off? Be caught in flagrante delicto with Guy Verhofstadht?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    rcs1000 said:

    Under the current AfD leadership, they are very much "beyond the pail" for the German political establishment, in a way that simply wasn't the case five years ago. I will offer you generous odds on them being in a coalition following the elections this year if you like.

    You beat me to it. The AfD are now outside the spectrum of acceptable politics and the CSU would choose the Greens over them every day of the week.
    The CSU will choose neither, they are not going to lose half their voters in Bavaria to the AfD to do a coalition with the Greens
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    Even those final 2013 polls had the CDU polling higher then they are now and the AfD are polling significantly higher than they were then
    Exactly. There just aren't big surprises in German national elections because of the second vote being proportional. Four years ago everyone knew that the FDP were very close to the 5% entry barrier. This time the FDP and Afd are polling well above the 5% mark.

    Repeat, the polls won't be exact, but there will be no surprises.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    If there was ever a time in the Bundestag for a confidence and supply government it was in 2013 when CDU were 5 seats short of 50%.

    In Germany they just don't even consider a minority government.
    If not it will be another CDU SPD grand coalition once all other options have been exhausted
  • What does Angela Merkel have to do to put the Germans off?

    Propose a dementia tax, then change the policy and shout that nothing has changed to the German press corps?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    edited September 2017
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    If there was ever a time in the Bundestag for a confidence and supply government it was in 2013 when CDU were 5 seats short of 50%.

    In Germany they just don't even consider a minority government.
    I'll admit to having never paid too much attention to German politics, but looking at the results it seems odd that they didn't just go it alone. They'd probably have formed a coalition even if they had won a majority!
    eristdoof said:

    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    So did the CDU/CSU get as many seats as they did because the FDP and the AFD just missed the 5% threshold?
    The unusual thing with the 2013 election was that almost 15% of the vote went to parties who didn't enter the Bundestag, meaning that the four parties that did, got a much bigger proportion of seats than their vote share.
    Yes, and I'm guessing it's created a vacuum with no real opposition. That will definitely change after next Sunday.
    eristdoof said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    I'm guessing you don't talk politics with any Germans!
    Okay, so I get they like consensual politics and I can understand that. My biggest problem with PR is that it can lead to perpetual governments that you can't get rid of. Of course, eventually people start looking at other options. The SPD would be mad to go in with the CDU/CSU even if they think they are doing the right thing by the country.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited September 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    Not entirely convinced by that. The German Greens are not our Greens. They support Merkel on many issues. UK Greens are more like Die Linke.
    Yes but there is no way the CSU would agree to a deal with the Greens ahead of the AfD, especially as their conservative base in Bavaria would erupt. A minority government is more likely than a full coalition with the Greens
    You seem to have missed the extent to which the AfD has changed. Four years ago, it was run by the former MD of IBM in Germany. Its platform was that the Euro didn't work for Germany because Germany was on the hook for the debts of the Greeks (and others). Now, this was in breach of the cold war consensus on Europe in Germany, but it was certainly a respectable party that grouped with the Conservatives in the European Parliament. This AfD was a natural ally of the CSU (who are the most Eurosceptic of the mainstream German parties)

    Two years ago the leadership of the AfD changed and Frauke Petry took over. She took the party in an anti-Muslim direction, calling for Minarets to be banned. Under her watch AfD spokesman Björn Höcke has called for the holocaust monument in Berlin to be removed calling it a "monument of shame".

    In 2013, when the AfD was a "Euro"-sceptic party, it didn't stand in Bavaria. In 2018, now it is more an anti-Muslim party, it will be standing.

    Under the current AfD leadership, they are very much "beyond the pail" for the German political establishment, in a way that simply wasn't the case five years ago. I will offer you generous odds on them being in a coalition following the elections this year if you like.
    The CSU is not exactly pro immigration themselves, Edmund Stoiber the CSU's chairman last September said 'It was not enough to criticise the AfD's voters, he argued - the CDU had to understand why people were losing faith in its policies.
    Mr Stoiber called for a limit on the number of people entering Germany.'

    The CSU will not do a coalition with the AfD no but they certainly will not do one with the Greens either
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37274222
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    What does Angela Merkel have to do to put the Germans off?

    Propose a dementia tax, then change the policy and shout that nothing has changed to the German press corps?
    The CDU are actually polling below the 42% the Tories got in June even if Merkel will be re elected
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    So did the CDU/CSU get as many seats as they did because the FDP and the AFD just missed the 5% threshold?
    Yes.
    Well I think one thing is for sure. The government will lose seats. Lots of them.
    "Losing seats" is not the same as it is in Britain. For a start the number of MPs in the Bundestag will not be known until late into Sunday evening due to the "Ausgleichmandat" .
    Put it this way, it is possible for a party to "lose seats" but increase their proportion of seats.
    It is also not possible in Germany to have a "Portillo Moment" because if a minister loses their direct manddate, then they will get in to parliament via the "second votes".

    But in essence you are right, the CDU/CSU+SDP will have a lower proportion of members, in fact the FDP only need to get 0.3 more percentage points compared with last time in order for this to be inevitable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    Even those final 2013 polls had the CDU polling higher then they are now and the AfD are polling significantly higher than they were then
    Exactly. There just aren't big surprises in German national elections because of the second vote being proportional. Four years ago everyone knew that the FDP were very close to the 5% entry barrier. This time the FDP and Afd are polling well above the 5% mark.

    Repeat, the polls won't be exact, but there will be no surprises.
    Most likely not
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    Not entirely convinced by that. The German Greens are not our Greens. They support Merkel on many issues. UK Greens are more like Die Linke.
    Yes but there is no way the CSU would agree to a deal with the Greens ahead of the AfD, especially as their conservative base in Bavaria would erupt. A minority government is more likely than a full coalition with the Greens
    You seem to have missed the extent to which the AfD has changed. Four years ago, it was run by the former MD of IBM in Germany. Its platform was that the Euro didn't work for Germany because Germany was on the hook for the debts of the Greeks (and others). Now, this was in breach of the cold war consensus on Europe in Germany, but it was certainly a respectable party that grouped with the Conservatives in the European Parliament. This AfD was a natural ally of the CSU (who are the most Eurosceptic of the mainstream German parties)

    Two years ago the leadership of the AfD changed and Frauke Petry took over. She took the party in an anti-Muslim direction, calling for Minarets to be banned. Under her watch AfD spokesman Björn Höcke has called for the holocaust monument in Berlin to be removed calling it a "monument of shame".

    In 2013, when the AfD was a "Euro"-sceptic party, it didn't stand in Bavaria. In 2018, now it is more an anti-Muslim party, it will be standing.

    Under the current AfD leadership, they are very much "beyond the pail" for the German political establishment, in a way that simply wasn't the case five years ago. I will offer you generous odds on them being in a coalition following the elections this year if you like.
    Beyond the Pale - the Pale was Dublin's immediate hinterland and "beyond" were assorted unwashed Irishmen
  • HYUFD said:

    The CSU will not do a coalition with the AfD no but they certainly will not do one with the Greens either

    From the Horst's mouth - https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/seehofer-gruene-101.html

    He says that the Greens wouldn't be his ideal partner but the election results determine the coalitions.
  • Breaking news

    UK terror threat raised from severe to critical
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited September 2017

    HYUFD said:

    The CSU will not do a coalition with the AfD no but they certainly will not do one with the Greens either

    From the Horst's mouth - https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/seehofer-gruene-101.html

    He says that the Greens wouldn't be his ideal partner but the election results determine the coalitions.
    Never mind ideal he says the Greens are 'not pleasant partners' on a literal translation from German into English. His party membership will be even more vociferous
  • What does Angela Merkel have to do to put the Germans off? Be caught in flagrante delicto with Guy Verhofstadht?

    If I was a German I'd probably vote for Merkel. She's probably the best leader in the free world right now.

    Sure she's not perfect but many of the reasons she's unpopular outside of Germany are because of good things for Germany. Take the way she dealt with Greek crisis, for all the talk of "solidarity" she looked after German interests first and foremost.
  • Assistant Commissioner of the Met, Mark Rowley:

    'Uninformed information on social media and by journalist has been unhelpful in the investigation'

    Some of the so called experts put forward by the broadcast media and indeed their presenters have just been pure unadulterated speculation
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    What does Angela Merkel have to do to put the Germans off? Be caught in flagrante delicto with Guy Verhofstadht?

    Hold hands with Donald Trump and claim she is Strong and Stable??
  • It's good to see the Department for International Trade has spotted some opportunities within the EU.
    https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/908593181004111872
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    tlg86 said:



    FF43 said:

    I was talking to a German friend who follows politics closely. FWIW he was confident the SPD would agree a coalition with the CDU if no viable alternative was available. It is expected of them and politicians prefer to be in government than not to be, so they can rationalise it. The other person at our table went along with his analysis.

    If there is another grand coalition, the other parties will continue to grow at the expense of the SPD. Come the next election, I doubt that the grand coalition will be a possibility.
    If all parties are working off the same principle it becomes a business transaction. If there's no viable alternative to an SPD / CDU coalition, the SPD can extract a higher price for their agreement in terms of their programme than, say, the FDP could. The CDU would be willing to pay that price to get a viable government, but if the CDU had alternatives they wouldn't be willing. Come the next election it would be a new arrangement, depending on how the votes fell out.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    tlg86 said:

    eristdoof said:


    The unusual thing with the 2013 election was that almost 15% of the vote went to parties who didn't enter the Bundestag, meaning that the four parties that did, got a much bigger proportion of seats than their vote share.

    Yes, and I'm guessing it's created a vacuum with no real opposition. That will definitely change after next Sunday.
    Although there is no shadow cabinet and no former leader of the opposition, the parliament still needs the opposition parties. And yes many people have criticised this parliament because the opposition was so weak in %age terms, although Die Like and die Grünen have often put forward good counter arguments. The "marriage for everyone" bill was heavily pushed by the green party.

    There was some time in the sixties there was a Grand Coalition when the only opposition was the FDP, who had only 5% or so of the seats so the government was 95% of parliament!
    tlg86 said:


    eristdoof said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    I'm guessing you don't talk politics with any Germans!
    Okay, so I get they like consensual politics and I can understand that. My biggest problem with PR is that it can lead to perpetual governments that you can't get rid of. Of course, eventually people start looking at other options. The SPD would be mad to go in with the CDU/CSU even if they think they are doing the right thing by the country.
    I personally thought that the SPD should not have formed a grand coalition last time but they have managed to get some important bills through (like the minimum wage) and provided good support for Merkel's stance in the Refugee Crisis, when the CSU and some of the CDU were very critical of her.
  • Massive ramping by Tim Stanley of a breaking Boris scoop over on Twitter.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,525
    FF43 said:

    tlg86 said:



    FF43 said:

    I was talking to a German friend who follows politics closely. FWIW he was confident the SPD would agree a coalition with the CDU if no viable alternative was available. It is expected of them and politicians prefer to be in government than not to be, so they can rationalise it. The other person at our table went along with his analysis.

    If there is another grand coalition, the other parties will continue to grow at the expense of the SPD. Come the next election, I doubt that the grand coalition will be a possibility.
    If all parties are working off the same principle it becomes a business transaction. If there's no viable alternative to an SPD / CDU coalition, the SPD can extract a higher price for their agreement in terms of their programme than, say, the FDP could. The CDU would be willing to pay that price to get a viable government, but if the CDU had alternatives they wouldn't be willing. Come the next election it would be a new arrangement, depending on how the votes fell out.
    I'm pretty sure the SPD would prefer opposition if it is possible. A leader could establish a national profile for 4 years outside government, ready to face probably not Merkel in 2021. That is why I lean towards a CSU/FDP or Jamaica coalition.
    However, they are German and will go with the numbers.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    It's good to see the Department for International Trade has spotted some opportunities within the EU.
    https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/908593181004111872

    I am sure that our Romanian diaspora links will be vital in forming these trade links...
  • Fuck off Boris, it's date night for me.
  • What does Angela Merkel have to do to put the Germans off? Be caught in flagrante delicto with Guy Verhofstadht?

    If I was a German I'd probably vote for Merkel. She's probably the best leader in the free world right now.

    Sure she's not perfect but many of the reasons she's unpopular outside of Germany are because of good things for Germany. Take the way she dealt with Greek crisis, for all the talk of "solidarity" she looked after German interests first and foremost.
    She'd have lost my vote over her migration stupidity.
  • Fuck off Boris, it's date night for me.
    Lol.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    dixiedean said:

    FF43 said:

    tlg86 said:



    FF43 said:

    I was talking to a German friend who follows politics closely. FWIW he was confident the SPD would agree a coalition with the CDU if no viable alternative was available. It is expected of them and politicians prefer to be in government than not to be, so they can rationalise it. The other person at our table went along with his analysis.

    If there is another grand coalition, the other parties will continue to grow at the expense of the SPD. Come the next election, I doubt that the grand coalition will be a possibility.
    If all parties are working off the same principle it becomes a business transaction. If there's no viable alternative to an SPD / CDU coalition, the SPD can extract a higher price for their agreement in terms of their programme than, say, the FDP could. The CDU would be willing to pay that price to get a viable government, but if the CDU had alternatives they wouldn't be willing. Come the next election it would be a new arrangement, depending on how the votes fell out.
    I'm pretty sure the SPD would prefer opposition if it is possible. A leader could establish a national profile for 4 years outside government, ready to face probably not Merkel in 2021. That is why I lean towards a CSU/FDP or Jamaica coalition.
    However, they are German and will go with the numbers.
    Except that a Kanzlerkandidat is only chosen 8 months before the election, just like Schulz took over from Gabriel in January
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Parsons Green

    When an attacker on a 100% civilian target decides they don't want to die, you have a more possibilities to worry about. More devices, more friends.
  • Charles is trying to usurp Her Majesty.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/908788005565059073
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    Evening PB,

    Just to let you know I'm gonna call TSE - "RIGHT NOW" - To find out where the hell he gets his fashion sense from. :D
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    Breaking news

    UK terror threat raised from severe to critical

    Attack imminent. Those on the tube need to pay attention.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    Boris!!!!!!!!!!! :open_mouth:
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Think this is the Boris story.

    He should put it on the side of a bus
  • Boris is a twat.

    The day after I say don't take the 8/1 on him as next out of the cabinet he does this.

    He's a bellend.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    Bye, Bye Theresa? :D
  • So it's the Sun's scoop not the Telegraph's.

    Handbags at dawn for Tim and Harry?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,457
    GIN1138 said:

    Boris!!!!!!!!!!! :open_mouth:

    On manoeuvres!
  • His article has 4000 words... Sounds like a manifesto.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,525
    eristdoof said:

    dixiedean said:

    FF43 said:

    tlg86 said:



    FF43 said:

    I was talking to a German friend who follows politics closely. FWIW he was confident the SPD would agree a coalition with the CDU if no viable alternative was available. It is expected of them and politicians prefer to be in government than not to be, so they can rationalise it. The other person at our table went along with his analysis.

    If there is another grand coalition, the other parties will continue to grow at the expense of the SPD. Come the next election, I doubt that the grand coalition will be a possibility.
    If all parties are working off the same principle it becomes a business transaction. If there's no viable alternative to an SPD / CDU coalition, the SPD can extract a higher price for their agreement in terms of their programme than, say, the FDP could. The CDU would be willing to pay that price to get a viable government, but if the CDU had alternatives they wouldn't be willing. Come the next election it would be a new arrangement, depending on how the votes fell out.
    I'm pretty sure the SPD would prefer opposition if it is possible. A leader could establish a national profile for 4 years outside government, ready to face probably not Merkel in 2021. That is why I lean towards a CSU/FDP or Jamaica coalition.
    However, they are German and will go with the numbers.
    Except that a Kanzlerkandidat is only chosen 8 months before the election, just like Schulz took over from Gabriel in January
    Indeed. But didn't they have to draft Schulz in from Brussels? A period of opposition would allow more candidates to establish themselves without having to support the government.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2017
    I just took the few pounds available on boris next Con leader @ ~9.5

    And laid a significant amount of JRM @ ~10

    Both trading bets, with the intention of laying off during/shortly after conference.

    Still £73 available to lay JRM @ 12.5 if anyone wants to follow me in.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067

    What does Angela Merkel have to do to put the Germans off? Be caught in flagrante delicto with Guy Verhofstadht?

    Hold hands with Donald Trump and claim she is Strong and Stable??
    LOL: Yeah, Merkel does not need to convince anyone that she is "strong and stable"
  • GIN1138 said:

    Bye, Bye Theresa? :D

    If it is true and Boris demands the 10 billion for the NHS he will at a stroke gain immense support in the UK, split the party, and probably result in WTO rules

    Interesting
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    GIN1138 said:

    Bye, Bye Theresa? :D

    Bye bye Boris?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    Think this is the Boris story.

    He should put it on the side of a bus
    Nah. It would never work...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402

    GIN1138 said:

    Boris!!!!!!!!!!! :open_mouth:

    On manoeuvres!
    Not manoeuvres, if story is true. It's a coup as Boris seizes the metaphorical Conservative Party radio station.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Foreigners could be prevented from buying homes in Britain

    “It is often pointed out that the price of housing in certain parts of London may be increased by buyers from overseas. But there is no point in putting any kind of tax on foreign buyers, because the inhabitants of 27 other countries cannot legally be treated as foreign.”
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439

    GIN1138 said:

    Bye, Bye Theresa? :D

    Boris demands the 10 billion for the NHS

    If Theresa had put that in the Con manifesto Con would've won 50 more seats then they did...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Scott_P said:
    Sacked in the morning, he's getting sacked in the morning...
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    My dad has just asked, "what would happen in Germany if no party got more than 5% of the vote?"

    Not sure. They do have FPTP constituencies like us. They make up the proportions by a list system. If no party got the threshold I would suggest a political and constitutional crisis would have already happened.
    That's a great theoretical question! The logical answer would be that yes all directly elected MPs would take their seat but none via the second vote. A candidate who wins a constituency still gets to sit in the Bundestag even if the party doesn't get 5%
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    So this is a leadership bid by Boris right?

    He wants to be fired and then launch a leadership challenge from the back benches?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Presumably BoZo is trying to get himself sacked, so when Brexit goes tits up he can claim it would have been fine with him in charge...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,525
    dr_spyn said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Bye, Bye Theresa? :D

    Bye bye Boris?
    Bye bye one of them. All predictions are off. The chances of this government lasting to 2022 has receded this week.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sacked in the morning, he's getting sacked in the morning...
    He'll hand in his resignation before they can sack him surely
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles is trying to usurp Her Majesty.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/908788005565059073

    No I'm not!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Alistair said:

    So this is a leadership bid by Boris right?

    He wants to be fired and then launch a leadership challenge from the back benches?

    SNAP!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215
    edited September 2017
    May was minded to fold and offer a gilt edged olive branch to the EU. Boris is not so minded and has called foul. Who is right? Boris is certainly rolling the dice in a way that runs contrary to May's caution.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    Scott_P said:
    'The Foreign Secretary believes the UK must slash payments to Brussels as soon as we leave.'He wants the Government to live up to the ‘Vote Leave’ promise of finding £350 million a week for the NHS instead, James Forsyth reveals in his Sun column today.
    The revelation follows reports the PM will offer to maintain our annual £10 billion-a-year payments to the European Commission during a two or three year ‘transition’ phase with the EU.

    A transition or ‘bridging’ phase would ensure Britain maintains close-to-existing relationships with the
    EU between Brexit and the date at which a new trade deal comes into force.'

    So he wants a minimal transition period with the money saved going to the NHS, so more money for the NHS and a quick end to free movement is his platform
  • Charles said:

    No I'm not!

    Skipping to William is the popular choice. ;)
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    dixiedean said:

    dr_spyn said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Bye, Bye Theresa? :D

    Bye bye Boris?
    Bye bye one of them. All predictions are off. The chances of this government lasting to 2022 has receded this week.
    2018 General Election with Boris touring the country on a bus promising £350m for the NHS?

    Scott_P will explode. :D
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Boris is a twat.

    The day after I say don't take the 8/1 on him as next out of the cabinet he does this.

    He's a bellend.

    To be fair to him £10bn a year is a lot
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,457
    Scott_P said:

    Presumably BoZo is trying to get himself sacked, so when Brexit goes tits up he can claim it would have been fine with him in charge...

    Don't you think the plan is to be in charge very, very shortly? There would be some justice in him holding the Brexit parcel when the music stops.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    Interesting but I don't think taking back money from the EU and giving almost all of it to the NHS is exactly 'low tax and low regulation'
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439

    Charles said:

    No I'm not!

    Skipping to William is the popular choice. ;)
    Oi, back of the queue! :D
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    2018 General Election with Boris touring the country on a bus promising £350m for the NHS?

    Scott_P will explode. :D

    Read the thread first...
  • NEW THREAD

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    GIN1138 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sacked in the morning, he's getting sacked in the morning...
    He'll hand in his resignation before they can sack him surely
    I think being fired is a better look for Boris. Fought valiantly for what he believes in only to forced out by a weak prime minister who is surrendering Blighty's treasure to the perfidious French.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Alistair said:

    GIN1138 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sacked in the morning, he's getting sacked in the morning...
    He'll hand in his resignation before they can sack him surely
    I think being fired is a better look for Boris. Fought valiantly for what he believes in only to forced out by a weak prime minister who is surrendering Blighty's treasure to the perfidious French.
    Agreed
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,525
    GIN1138 said:

    dixiedean said:

    dr_spyn said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Bye, Bye Theresa? :D

    Bye bye Boris?
    Bye bye one of them. All predictions are off. The chances of this government lasting to 2022 has receded this week.
    2018 General Election with Boris touring the country on a bus promising £350m for the NHS?

    Scott_P will explode. :D
    JC will promise £400m. Instead of painting it they will have to have an electronic scoreboard to keep up!
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    dixiedean said:

    eristdoof said:

    dixiedean said:

    FF43 said:

    tlg86 said:



    FF43 said:

    I was talking to a German friend who follows politics closely. FWIW he was confident the SPD would agree a coalition with the CDU if no viable alternative was available. It is expected of them and politicians prefer to be in government than not to be, so they can rationalise it. The other person at our table went along with his analysis.

    If there is another grand coalition, the other parties will continue to grow at the expense of the SPD. Come the next election, I doubt that the grand coalition will be a possibility.
    If all parties are working off the same principle it becomes a business transaction. If there's no viable alternative to an SPD / CDU coalition, the SPD can extract a higher price for their agreement in terms of their programme than, say, the FDP could. The CDU would be willing to pay that price to get a viable government, but if the CDU had alternatives they wouldn't be willing. Come the next election it would be a new arrangement, depending on how the votes fell out.
    I'm pretty sure the SPD would prefer opposition if it is possible. A leader could establish a national profile for 4 years outside government, ready to face probably not Merkel in 2021. That is why I lean towards a CSU/FDP or Jamaica coalition.
    However, they are German and will go with the numbers.
    Except that a Kanzlerkandidat is only chosen 8 months before the election, just like Schulz took over from Gabriel in January
    Indeed. But didn't they have to draft Schulz in from Brussels? A period of opposition would allow more candidates to establish themselves without having to support the government.
    Yes I think so too, but I too am used to the British system of "leader of the opposition". In Germany the political parties have leaders but they might or might not be Kanzlerkandidat and do not even have to be in the Bundestag. For Example Horst Seehofer is leader of the CSU but is Minister President of Bavaria not leader of the Bundestag Faction.

    I would have thought that allowing a leader to pressure the chancellor for 3 and a half years would be a great chance to maximise the chances at the next election.
  • I'd assumed the Boris stuff was just a liberal Remainer fantasy. Is he really going to bring down another Conservative PM by relitigating the Referendum via Soft via Hard Brexit ? And if he succeeds is he really going to deliver a WTO Brexit and serve as PM for nearly 5 years on the basis of May's lost majority and subsequent DUP deal ? And if not are we really going to have another General Election in 2018 to deliver him a mandate for that ? And if we did how do know his poll numbers wouldn't be as ephemeral as May's ? And so on and so on. The Conservative Party is discovering that Brexit is like hard drive. You have to take escalating amounts of it to get the same high. Untill your body and mind collapse under the strain.

    More likely he's playing to the gallery for a 2019 leadership election after May has carried the can for the inevitable Brexit climb down. But it's incredibly dangerous stuff which could get out of control.

    I never, ever thought I would say it but thank God for the Corbyn surge. God alone knows what this shower would have been like with a majority. The prospect of 5years of the ghastly McDonell/Corbyn being less damaging than a Tory government should be absurd but it appears to be where we are. Buckle up.
This discussion has been closed.