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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : September 14th 2017

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  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories
    Survation who called the election spot on say otherwise.

    But you know better than the pollster that called the election right.
    Survation have UKIP on 4%, up 3% on the general election, cut them back to 1% and add them to the Tory total and you also get the Tories on 41% without the Tories winning a single Labour or LD switcher.

    But UKIP actually polled 1.8% - not 1% - and that was in the context of contesting circa 350 seats. Had they fought every constituency they would surely have reached 3%.
    You think they are going to contest more next time? I'd have thought it more likely that they field even fewer!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    RobD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories
    Survation who called the election spot on say otherwise.

    But you know better than the pollster that called the election right.
    Survation have UKIP on 4%, up 3% on the general election, cut them back to 1% and add them to the Tory total and you also get the Tories on 41% without the Tories winning a single Labour or LD switcher.

    But UKIP actually polled 1.8% - not 1% - and that was in the context of contesting circa 350 seats. Had they fought every constituency they would surely have reached 3%.
    You think they are going to contest more next time? I'd have thought it more likely that they field even fewer!
    I have no idea - that probably depends on attiudes to any Brexit deal.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    Eddie Izzard has said that he will give up comedy to run for Parliament – hoping to become the country’s first transgender MP.

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/09/11/eddie-izzard-could-give-up-comedy-to-become-first-transgender-mp/

    "Give Up"?
  • Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    edited September 2017
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories
    Survation who called the election spot on say otherwise.

    But you know better than the pollster that called the election right.
    Survation have UKIP on 4%, up 3% on the general election, cut them back to 1% and add them to the Tory total and you also get the Tories on 41% without the Tories winning a single Labour or LD switcher.

    But UKIP actually polled 1.8% - not 1% - and that was in the context of contesting circa 350 seats. Had they fought every constituency they would surely have reached 3%.
    Even if you add 2.2% rather than 3% to the 38% Tory total with Survation they still get to 40%
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    Isn't it common sense to have one person trained as a medic in each team?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories
    Dead parrot certainly. But Mrs May?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories
    Dead parrot certainly. But Mrs May?
    We have empirical data on that contest. ;)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,524

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories
    Dead parrot certainly. But Mrs May?
    Well you could say little difference but the polling suggests so
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    Are they really proposing sending out fire engine instead of ambulances? I thought it was more for situations where the fire engine arrived first.
  • dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    Not in Birmingham.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories
    Survation who called the election spot on say otherwise.

    But you know better than the pollster that called the election right.
    Survation have UKIP on 4%, up 3% on the general election, cut them back to 1% and add them to the Tory total and you also get the Tories on 41% without the Tories winning a single Labour or LD switcher.

    But UKIP actually polled 1.8% - not 1% - and that was in the context of contesting circa 350 seats. Had they fought every constituency they would surely have reached 3%.
    Even if you add 2.2% rather than 3% to the 38% Tory total with Survation they still get to 40%
    But the election revealed that many UKIP voters do not vote Tory as their second preference. Yes, they would pick up more than Labour - but of that 2.2% I doubt that the Tories would receive more than 1.2% whilst Labour could add 0.4%. Other UKIP voters would switch to minor parties or stay at home.
  • RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    Isn't it common sense to have one person trained as a medic in each team?
    We're trained to a higher standard than yer average first aider, but it really is just basic life support, DR ABC, with a bit extra thrown in, tourniquets, and knowing what questions to ask. We don't give medication, intubate, or give pain relief.As I say, it's a cheap stopgap. You phone an Ambulance, you expect a paramedic to turn up. We turn up in a fire service van and fire service uniform. We get away with it because the public generally trust us, and we give off an air of confidence. I've had a few arse twitching moments, though. I genuinely enjoyed doing it, but we have trialled if for a few years now. It needs funding now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215
    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were trapped in a car you'd want a fire engine. @TwistedFireStopper will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but do a lot of firemen not have paramedic training, defibulators etc?
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories
    Dead parrot certainly. But Mrs May?
    We have empirical data on that contest. ;)
    One says nothing which leaves some ambiguity about their lack of judgment, the other speaks (although also says very little) and removes all doubt. The parrot edges it for me.
  • RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    Are they really proposing sending out fire engine instead of ambulances? I thought it was more for situations where the fire engine arrived first.
    Some brigades ado turn out pumps to EFR calls. We use a small van kitted out as a mini fire appliance. It's a bastardised vehicle not fit for either service.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,524
    edited September 2017
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were trapped in a car you'd want a fire engine. @TwistedFireStopper will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but do a lot of firemen not have paramedic training, defibulators etc?
    Indeed it would, but if I fell down some stairs dislocated my elbow and broke my arm (as I did a couple of years ago), I'd need and want an ambulance. Triaging is an important skill. Fire fighters may have some of the training and skills needed, as do Police, but it is not their role.
    A paramedic is a highly trained professional able to administer drugs such as adrenaline to re-start a heart.
  • TwistedFireStopperTwistedFireStopper Posts: 2,538
    edited September 2017
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were trapped in a car you'd want a fire engine. @TwistedFireStopper will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but do a lot of firemen not have paramedic training, defibulators etc?
    We are not paramedic trained. We're all trained in basic life support and do have defibs, but just the ones you find in a rural phone box. It's not fun waiting for an ambulance when you're at limit of your expertise.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    Isn't it common sense to have one person trained as a medic in each team?
    We're trained to a higher standard than yer average first aider, but it really is just basic life support, DR ABC, with a bit extra thrown in, tourniquets, and knowing what questions to ask. We don't give medication, intubate, or give pain relief.As I say, it's a cheap stopgap. You phone an Ambulance, you expect a paramedic to turn up. We turn up in a fire service van and fire service uniform. We get away with it because the public generally trust us, and we give off an air of confidence. I've had a few arse twitching moments, though. I genuinely enjoyed doing it, but we have trialled if for a few years now. It needs funding now.
    OK that does sound a bit stupid! No doubt it is costing money to have you guys do that? Why not use that money to get some more real ambulances?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    edited September 2017
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn Tories
    Survation who called the election spot on say otherwise.

    But you know better than the pollster that called the election right.
    Survation have UKIP on 4%, up 3% on the general election, cut them back to 1% and add them to the Tory total and you also get the Tories on 41% without the Tories winning a single Labour or LD switcher.

    But UKIP actually polled 1.8% - not 1% - and that was in the context of contesting circa 350 seats. Had they fought every constituency they would surely have reached 3%.
    Even if you add 2.2% rather than 3% to the 38% Tory total with Survation they still get to 40%
    But the election revealed that many UKIP voters do not vote Tory as their second preference. Yes, they would pick up more than Labour - but of that 2.2% I doubt that the Tories would receive more than 1.2% whilst Labour could add 0.4%. Other UKIP voters would switch to minor parties or stay at home.
    Read the polling crosstabs, the vast majority of those new UKIP voters voted Tory in June and the man they want to lead the Tories is Boris (who is also surprisingly the favourite of Tory and Labour voters, LDs favour Rudd)
  • Osborne would have her 'chopped up in bags in his freezer' - now Cable sees May as

    “handcuffed to a radiator in the basement of a flat in Beirut”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/theresa-may-like-hostage-handcuffed-radiator-beirut-brexit-sir/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
  • stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    I think we just don't know. Impossible to predict this far out and given the benefits/changes/chaos* Brexit may or may not bring in next two or three years.

    What we can say is that the idea that Jezza will be PM is no longer the source of just outright laughter. It really could happen.


    * Delete as you see fit
  • This makes you stop and think:

    "The Bank rate of 0.25pc, when deflated by the CPI measure of inflation, currently at 2.9pc, gives us a rate of minus 2.65pc."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/14/hooked-dangerous-drug-low-interest-rates/
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    Isn't it common sense to have one person trained as a medic in each team?
    We're trained to a higher standard than yer average first aider, but it really is just basic life support, DR ABC, with a bit extra thrown in, tourniquets, and knowing what questions to ask. We don't give medication, intubate, or give pain relief.As I say, it's a cheap stopgap. You phone an Ambulance, you expect a paramedic to turn up. We turn up in a fire service van and fire service uniform. We get away with it because the public generally trust us, and we give off an air of confidence. I've had a few arse twitching moments, though. I genuinely enjoyed doing it, but we have trialled if for a few years now. It needs funding now.
    OK that does sound a bit stupid! No doubt it is costing money to have you guys do that? Why not use that money to get some more real ambulances?
    We're cheap. We stop the ambos getting fined for missing targets, and they pay our service for each call. Our Chief gets a pat on the back for"modernising" us, and the public get reduced fire cover and a shit ambulance experience. I'm good, but I ain't no paramedic.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were trapped in a car you'd want a fire engine. @TwistedFireStopper will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but do a lot of firemen not have paramedic training, defibulators etc?
    We are not paramedic trained. We're all trained in basic life support and do have defibs, but just the ones you find in a rural phone box. It's not fun waiting for an ambulance when you're at limit of your expertise.
    If we are to go down this route that will clearly have to change rather than doing this on the cheap.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    Osborne would have her 'chopped up in bags in his freezer' - now Cable sees May as

    “handcuffed to a radiator in the basement of a flat in Beirut”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/theresa-may-like-hostage-handcuffed-radiator-beirut-brexit-sir/

    Its tough at the top. And where Mrs May is too.

    But Cable is never going to beat Mr Bean. Its all downhill for him.
  • This makes you stop and think:

    "The Bank rate of 0.25pc, when deflated by the CPI measure of inflation, currently at 2.9pc, gives us a rate of minus 2.65pc."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/14/hooked-dangerous-drug-low-interest-rates/

    And who exactly is borrowing at base rate?

    Borrowing is typically to my knowledge done at base+x% depending upon credit worthiness, security etc

    I've got a mortgage at base+3% which I think is quite cheap which means I'm borrowing at 3.25% or when you deflate by inflation 0.35%
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were trapped in a car you'd want a fire engine. @TwistedFireStopper will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but do a lot of firemen not have paramedic training, defibulators etc?
    We are not paramedic trained. We're all trained in basic life support and do have defibs, but just the ones you find in a rural phone box. It's not fun waiting for an ambulance when you're at limit of your expertise.
    If we are to go down this route that will clearly have to change rather than doing this on the cheap.
    That's why we rejected the 2%. What are we still trialling? It'll work, but it needs funding and the politics needs sorting out. Our trial gets the ambos out of a hole on the cheap, but if we get funded to do it, we take money off them. It's a problem.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were in a serious accident, you'd take a fire fighter in 5 minutes over an ambulance in 15. Fire Fighters might not be 'medics' in the full sense, but they know enough to make the difference between life and death in a serious road accident.
  • This makes you stop and think:

    "The Bank rate of 0.25pc, when deflated by the CPI measure of inflation, currently at 2.9pc, gives us a rate of minus 2.65pc."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/14/hooked-dangerous-drug-low-interest-rates/

    And who exactly is borrowing at base rate?

    Borrowing is typically to my knowledge done at base+x% depending upon credit worthiness, security etc

    I've got a mortgage at base+3% which I think is quite cheap which means I'm borrowing at 3.25% or when you deflate by inflation 0.35%
    0.35 is still pretty low. Historically, off-the-scale low.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,524
    TonyE said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were in a serious accident, you'd take a fire fighter in 5 minutes over an ambulance in 15. Fire Fighters might not be 'medics' in the full sense, but they know enough to make the difference between life and death in a serious road accident.
    Yes I would. But the situation you describe ought not to occur.
  • https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.

    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.

    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts

    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.

    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies

    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.

    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?

    If you were trapped in a car you'd want a fire engine. @TwistedFireStopper will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but do a lot of firemen not have paramedic training, defibulators etc?

    We are not paramedic trained. We're all trained in basic life support and do have defibs, but just the ones you find in a rural phone box. It's not fun waiting for an ambulance when you're at limit of your expertise.

    If we are to go down this route that will clearly have to change rather than doing this on the cheap.

    That's why we rejected the 2%. What are we still trialling? It'll work, but it needs funding and the politics needs sorting out. Our trial gets the ambos out of a hole on the cheap, but if we get funded to do it, we take money off them. It's a problem.

    The wider issue is where the public expect the pay rises to come from and the support for cuts to budgets is much higher than labour thought
  • TonyE said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were in a serious accident, you'd take a fire fighter in 5 minutes over an ambulance in 15. Fire Fighters might not be 'medics' in the full sense, but they know enough to make the difference between life and death in a serious road accident.
    That's why I'm not against us doing EFR in principle . If I can help anybody, I will, but it's just a cheap stopgap and not sustainable.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2017
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/15/four-lions-factor-how-terrorist-incompetence-is-saving-lives

    "Barry: He disrupted the establishment.
    Omar: How?!
    Barry: He Took out a sheep."
  • TonyE said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    How should public sector pay rises be paid for poll? https://mobile.twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/908666668913655808

    Surprised cuts are still reasonably popular.
    That's not a bad poll for the Conservatives.
    It makes it likely that a 2% - 2.5% is the most that HMG will offer to nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and the military with less for pen pushers paid for by a combination of small tax rises and some budget cuts
    We've just rejected a 2% deal that was tied to us carrying on a trial of First Responding in place of NHS Ambulances. It's just been used as a stopgap so that Ambulance Trusts don't get fined for missing attendance times and it gives our SMT brownie points with the government. We dont have enough engines or fire fighters to do the job we're supposed to do, without playing at being an Ambulance.
    I very much doubt you would play at being an ambulance but it is a good point, but innovation is often the way to create efficiencies
    I don't have an issue with doing First Response, but it needs to be funded and we need to have enhanced training. During the trial, we turn up , hold their hand, give them oxygen and attempt CPR if it goes South while waiting for a proper Ambulance to turn up. Doing FR takes fire fighters off fire engines, which means an appliance not available for its primary task.
    If I have an accident I want an ambulance not a fire engine. What next, a bin Lorry to a burglary?
    If you were in a serious accident, you'd take a fire fighter in 5 minutes over an ambulance in 15. Fire Fighters might not be 'medics' in the full sense, but they know enough to make the difference between life and death in a serious road accident.
    That's why I'm not against us doing EFR in principle . If I can help anybody, I will, but it's just a cheap stopgap and not sustainable.
    I have no doubt you and your fellow firefighters will do everything possible to help in any situation
  • O/T Have we noticed this Reuters article? It suggests some positive movement in the EU towards a sensible deal:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/britain-not-at-back-of-queue-for-eu-trade-deal-commissioner
  • O/T Have we noticed this Reuters article? It suggests some positive movement in the EU towards a sensible deal:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/britain-not-at-back-of-queue-for-eu-trade-deal-commissioner

    It suggests the position is the same as it's always been. The last time similar comments were in the media you suggested they had climbed down on sequencing but they hadn't.
  • O/T Have we noticed this Reuters article? It suggests some positive movement in the EU towards a sensible deal:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/britain-not-at-back-of-queue-for-eu-trade-deal-commissioner

    Reality away from the all pervading nonsense of Juncker and the commission.

    It is not beyond possibility the commission will receive new instructions from the Council post TM speech in Florence next week and the following heads of government meeting
  • O/T Have we noticed this Reuters article? It suggests some positive movement in the EU towards a sensible deal:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/britain-not-at-back-of-queue-for-eu-trade-deal-commissioner

    It suggests the position is the same as it's always been. The last time similar comments were in the media you suggested they had climbed down on sequencing but they hadn't.
    Certainly they climbed down on sequencing. Their opening position was that we couldn't even start talking until after we'd left. Admittedly that was so utterly barmy as a position that (as I pointed out at the time) anyone could see it wouldn't survive five minutes' contact with reality.

    The significance of the new comments seems to be that they are becoming aware of the damage their intransigence is doing. Otherwise why say anything?

    Of course, there's no guarantee that they will be sensible. We shall see.
  • Parity postponed?

    Pound leaps to highest since aftermath of Brexit vote

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/pound-leaps-to-highest-since-aftermath-of-brexit-vote
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Pong said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/15/four-lions-factor-how-terrorist-incompetence-is-saving-lives

    "Barry: He disrupted the establishment.
    Omar: How?!
    Barry: He Took out a sheep."

    Very qualified LOL, given terrorists only have to get it right once. It's a bit like listing the things King Jong Un can't *yet* do after each missile test.
  • Remarkably consistent - no noticeable shift in opinion despite Corbyn expecting to be PM sooner rather than later
  • O/T Have we noticed this Reuters article? It suggests some positive movement in the EU towards a sensible deal:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/britain-not-at-back-of-queue-for-eu-trade-deal-commissioner

    It suggests the position is the same as it's always been. The last time similar comments were in the media you suggested they had climbed down on sequencing but they hadn't.
    Certainly they climbed down on sequencing. Their opening position was that we couldn't even start talking until after we'd left. Admittedly that was so utterly barmy as a position that (as I pointed out at the time) anyone could see it wouldn't survive five minutes' contact with reality.

    The significance of the new comments seems to be that they are becoming aware of the damage their intransigence is doing. Otherwise why say anything?

    Of course, there's no guarantee that they will be sensible. We shall see.
    Add in the combined criticism of the UK and Europe business leaders demanding both sides resolve the issue with tariff free access their are signs the narrative is changing
  • O/T Have we noticed this Reuters article? It suggests some positive movement in the EU towards a sensible deal:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/britain-not-at-back-of-queue-for-eu-trade-deal-commissioner

    It suggests the position is the same as it's always been. The last time similar comments were in the media you suggested they had climbed down on sequencing but they hadn't.
    Certainly they climbed down on sequencing. Their opening position was that we couldn't even start talking until after we'd left. Admittedly that was so utterly barmy as a position that (as I pointed out at the time) anyone could see it wouldn't survive five minutes' contact with reality.

    The significance of the new comments seems to be that they are becoming aware of the damage their intransigence is doing. Otherwise why say anything?

    Of course, there's no guarantee that they will be sensible. We shall see.
    The original guidelines on this are below. To quote Theresa May, "Nothing has changed!"

    5. While an agreement on a future relationship between the Union and the United Kingdom as such can only be finalised and concluded once the United Kingdom has become a third country, Article 50 TEU requires to take account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union in the arrangements for withdrawal. To this end, an overall understanding on the framework for the future relationship should be identified during a second phase of the negotiations under Article 50 TEU. We stand ready to engage in preliminary and preparatory discussions to this end in the context of negotiations under Article 50 TEU, as soon as the European Council decides that sufficient progress has been made in the first phase towards reaching a satisfactory agreement on the arrangements for an orderly withdrawal.
  • Parity postponed?

    Pound leaps to highest since aftermath of Brexit vote

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/pound-leaps-to-highest-since-aftermath-of-brexit-vote

    Good for reducing inflation
  • O/T Have we noticed this Reuters article? It suggests some positive movement in the EU towards a sensible deal:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/britain-not-at-back-of-queue-for-eu-trade-deal-commissioner

    It suggests the position is the same as it's always been. The last time similar comments were in the media you suggested they had climbed down on sequencing but they hadn't.
    Certainly they climbed down on sequencing. Their opening position was that we couldn't even start talking until after we'd left. Admittedly that was so utterly barmy as a position that (as I pointed out at the time) anyone could see it wouldn't survive five minutes' contact with reality.

    The significance of the new comments seems to be that they are becoming aware of the damage their intransigence is doing. Otherwise why say anything?

    Of course, there's no guarantee that they will be sensible. We shall see.
    The original guidelines on this are below. To quote Theresa May, "Nothing has changed!"

    5. While an agreement on a future relationship between the Union and the United Kingdom as such can only be finalised and concluded once the United Kingdom has become a third country, Article 50 TEU requires to take account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union in the arrangements for withdrawal. To this end, an overall understanding on the framework for the future relationship should be identified during a second phase of the negotiations under Article 50 TEU. We stand ready to engage in preliminary and preparatory discussions to this end in the context of negotiations under Article 50 TEU, as soon as the European Council decides that sufficient progress has been made in the first phase towards reaching a satisfactory agreement on the arrangements for an orderly withdrawal.
    Sounds like you are beginning to panic William
  • Parity postponed?

    Pound leaps to highest since aftermath of Brexit vote

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/pound-leaps-to-highest-since-aftermath-of-brexit-vote

    Given how the pound collapsed during Mrs May's speech last year, Parity might just happen at the start of October during the Tory conference.
  • It may not interest many on here but the abolition of the tolls next year on the Severn bridges is great news for Wales and the West of England
  • Parity postponed?

    Pound leaps to highest since aftermath of Brexit vote

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/pound-leaps-to-highest-since-aftermath-of-brexit-vote

    Given how the pound collapsed during Mrs May's speech last year, Parity might just happen at the start of October during the Tory conference.
    No - it will strengthen due to the prospect of higher interest rates
  • O/T Have we noticed this Reuters article? It suggests some positive movement in the EU towards a sensible deal:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/britain-not-at-back-of-queue-for-eu-trade-deal-commissioner

    It suggests the position is the same as it's always been. The last time similar comments were in the media you suggested they had climbed down on sequencing but they hadn't.
    Certainly they climbed down on sequencing. Their opening position was that we couldn't even start talking until after we'd left. Admittedly that was so utterly barmy as a position that (as I pointed out at the time) anyone could see it wouldn't survive five minutes' contact with reality.

    The significance of the new comments seems to be that they are becoming aware of the damage their intransigence is doing. Otherwise why say anything?

    Of course, there's no guarantee that they will be sensible. We shall see.
    The original guidelines on this are below. To quote Theresa May, "Nothing has changed!"

    5. While an agreement on a future relationship between the Union and the United Kingdom as such can only be finalised and concluded once the United Kingdom has become a third country, Article 50 TEU requires to take account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union in the arrangements for withdrawal. To this end, an overall understanding on the framework for the future relationship should be identified during a second phase of the negotiations under Article 50 TEU. We stand ready to engage in preliminary and preparatory discussions to this end in the context of negotiations under Article 50 TEU, as soon as the European Council decides that sufficient progress has been made in the first phase towards reaching a satisfactory agreement on the arrangements for an orderly withdrawal.
    We've been through all this before. It's not exactly hard to find the truth:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222

    I'm hardly likely to make up something so well-known, am I?
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    I think we just don't know. Impossible to predict this far out and given the benefits/changes/chaos* Brexit may or may not bring in next two or three years.

    What we can say is that the idea that Jezza will be PM is no longer the source of just outright laughter. It really could happen.


    * Delete as you see fit
    That however is the point. Because it "really could happen", it makes it less likely that it will happen, since -by the rules of self denying prophecy -people will turn out in greater numbers to stop it.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,734
    Re Ashcroft - it's very good that so few people (from all parties) favour more borrowing.

    In terms of funding through cuts in other areas - that's exactly what has happened this week with police and prison officers - total budgets are unchanged so by definition increase in pay must be funded by cuts elsewhere within police / prison budgets.
  • MikeL said:

    Re Ashcroft - it's very good that so few people (from all parties) favour more borrowing.

    In terms of funding through cuts in other areas - that's exactly what has happened this week with police and prison officers - total budgets are unchanged so by definition increase in pay must be funded by cuts elsewhere within police / prison budgets.

    And by definition bad for labour and especially Corbyn with his mad cap ideas
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Harsh...

    @DPJHodges: Nicola Sturgeon had better watch it. She's in danger of becoming the SNP's Theresa May.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    Parity postponed?

    Pound leaps to highest since aftermath of Brexit vote

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/pound-leaps-to-highest-since-aftermath-of-brexit-vote

    Given how the pound collapsed during Mrs May's speech last year, Parity might just happen at the start of October during the Tory conference.

    Parity postponed?

    Pound leaps to highest since aftermath of Brexit vote

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/pound-leaps-to-highest-since-aftermath-of-brexit-vote

    Given how the pound collapsed during Mrs May's speech last year, Parity might just happen at the start of October during the Tory conference.
    When our erstwhile masters in the EU purport to mark our homework in October with, "could do better " parity is possible, at least in the short term.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    stevef said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    I think we just don't know. Impossible to predict this far out and given the benefits/changes/chaos* Brexit may or may not bring in next two or three years.

    What we can say is that the idea that Jezza will be PM is no longer the source of just outright laughter. It really could happen.


    * Delete as you see fit
    That however is the point. Because it "really could happen", it makes it less likely that it will happen, since -by the rules of self denying prophecy -people will turn out in greater numbers to stop it.
    It is the greatest sadness that people cannot be persuaded 1. to vote on the actual question before them and 2. to vote for the outcome they actually desire. It is a myth that we ever voted 52:48 to leave the EU; we voted 52:48 that Cameron and Osborne are posh twats, and we only voted that way on the understanding that it was Remain maj. nailed on. There is no answer, unless we go all Swiss and have referendums every 5 minutes until the novelty of using them as protest votes wears off.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681

    Parity postponed?

    Pound leaps to highest since aftermath of Brexit vote

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/pound-leaps-to-highest-since-aftermath-of-brexit-vote

    Given how the pound collapsed during Mrs May's speech last year, Parity might just happen at the start of October during the Tory conference.
    Not with interest rates set to rise in November
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    Labour put on about 13% between the local elections in May and the General election a month later. When VI moves as quickly as that conventional wisdom about where parties ought to be in the polls at a given point in the parliamentary/economic cycle is pretty useless.

    Labour's position is now far stronger than most people thought possible a few months ago.

    Meanwhile the Tories sink ever deeper into the Brexit mire which will surely engulf them completely in the next couple of years.
    The Tories also put on 4% from the locals to the general, almost all the Labour gains came from the LDs who were down 11% in the general from the locals and Corbyn has already squeezed them about as far as he can
    I see how you'd infer that Labour gains came from the Lib Dems. But it didn't look that way to me, admittedly in a very Tory seat. Amongst people I know I saw Brexit backing former Labour voters going Tory and generally non committed people turning out to back Labour. My feeling was that there is an unreported backlash against Brexit building up and pulling in people who don't usually vote and/or vote Tory without giving it much thought. Pure anecdote, but the polling statistics haven't been much use lately.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    Labour put on about 13% between the local elections in May and the General election a month later. When VI moves as quickly as that conventional wisdom about where parties ought to be in the polls at a given point in the parliamentary/economic cycle is pretty useless.

    Labour's position is now far stronger than most people thought possible a few months ago.

    Meanwhile the Tories sink ever deeper into the Brexit mire which will surely engulf them completely in the next couple of years.
    The Tories also put on 4% from the locals to the general, almost all the Labour gains came from the LDs who were down 11% in the general from the locals and Corbyn has already squeezed them about as far as he can
    I see how you'd infer that Labour gains came from the Lib Dems. But it didn't look that way to me, admittedly in a very Tory seat. Amongst people I know I saw Brexit backing former Labour voters going Tory and generally non committed people turning out to back Labour. My feeling was that there is an unreported backlash against Brexit building up and pulling in people who don't usually vote and/or vote Tory without giving it much thought. Pure anecdote, but the polling statistics haven't been much use lately.
    In the county council elections the Tories got 38% Labour got 27% and the LDs 18%.

    In the general election the Tories got 42% Labour got 40% and the LDs got 7% so the figures tend to back it up
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    Labour put on about 13% between the local elections in May and the General election a month later. When VI moves as quickly as that conventional wisdom about where parties ought to be in the polls at a given point in the parliamentary/economic cycle is pretty useless.

    Labour's position is now far stronger than most people thought possible a few months ago.

    Meanwhile the Tories sink ever deeper into the Brexit mire which will surely engulf them completely in the next couple of years.
    The Tories also put on 4% from the locals to the general, almost all the Labour gains came from the LDs who were down 11% in the general from the locals and Corbyn has already squeezed them about as far as he can
    I see how you'd infer that Labour gains came from the Lib Dems. But it didn't look that way to me, admittedly in a very Tory seat. Amongst people I know I saw Brexit backing former Labour voters going Tory and generally non committed people turning out to back Labour. My feeling was that there is an unreported backlash against Brexit building up and pulling in people who don't usually vote and/or vote Tory without giving it much thought. Pure anecdote, but the polling statistics haven't been much use lately.
    In the county council elections the Tories got 38% Labour got 27% and the LDs 18%.

    In the general election the Tories got 42% Labour got 40% and the LDs got 7% so the figures tend to back it up
    I wasn't disputing it, just pointing out that it didn't chime with what I heard people saying. I don't go around quizzing people so my sample size is small and self selecting. But sometimes the obvious conclusion isn't the correct one. Under the headline figures there might have been a lot of Brexit inspired switching in both directions between Labour and the Tories. That the Tories picked up a couple of wins from Labour while losing quite a few to them is consistent with that idea.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    edited September 2017
    Significant. Not because the Brexit bill is actually falling. But because David Davis is gearing up to accept the bill, whatever it is.

    Brexit Secretary: EU divorce bill now '£60bn and falling'
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Parity postponed?

    Pound leaps to highest since aftermath of Brexit vote

    http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/9/15/pound-leaps-to-highest-since-aftermath-of-brexit-vote

    Given how the pound collapsed during Mrs May's speech last year, Parity might just happen at the start of October during the Tory conference.
    No - it will strengthen due to the prospect of higher interest rates
    Borderline off topic, I find that you can put up to £15000 into euros, dollars and a few other currencies on a Post Office Travel Money Card, which as far as I can see comes to the same thing as having current accounts in the relevant currencies. I am strongly inclined to create a little nest egg to cover next year's euroland holiday at the current rate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    Labour put on about 13% between the local elections in May and the General election a month later. When VI moves as quickly as that conventional wisdom about where parties ought to be in the polls at a given point in the parliamentary/economic cycle is pretty useless.

    Labour's position is now far stronger than most people thought possible a few months ago.

    Meanwhile the Tories sink ever deeper into the Brexit mire which will surely engulf them completely in the next couple of years.
    The Tories also put on 4% from the locals to the general, almost all the Labour gains came from the LDs who were down 11% in the general from the locals and Corbyn has already squeezed them about as far as he can
    I see how you'd infer that Labour gains came from the Lib Dems. But it didn't look that way to me, admittedly in a very Tory seat. Amongst people I know I saw Brexit backing former Labour voters going Tory and generally non committed people turning out to back Labour. My feeling was that there is an unreported backlash against Brexit building up and pulling in people who don't usually vote and/or vote Tory without giving it much thought. Pure anecdote, but the polling statistics haven't been much use lately.
    In the county council elections the Tories got 38% Labour got 27% and the LDs 18%.

    In the general election the Tories got 42% Labour got 40% and the LDs got 7% so the figures tend to back it up
    I wasn't disputing it, just pointing out that it didn't chime with what I heard people saying. I don't go around quizzing people so my sample size is small and self selecting. But sometimes the obvious conclusion isn't the correct one. Under the headline figures there might have been a lot of Brexit inspired switching in both directions between Labour and the Tories. That the Tories picked up a couple of wins from Labour while losing quite a few to them is consistent with that idea.
    Quite possibly and the LDs tend to poll higher in council elections than general elections.

    However while there was certainly some Tory to Labour movement over the dementia tax in particular that was outweighed overall by the combined LD, Green, UKIP and SNP switching to Labour
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    A Cologne statement read: "Due to the enormous demand for tickets, it would have been sensible, not least for security reasons, to allow more than the allocated 5% of stadium capacity to the guest fans.

    "It was apparent that thousands of people from Cologne would seek to avoid the restrictions and get tickets in every way possible.

    "One such way would be through the help of Arsenal supporters, who passed on their tickets to the FC fans. Some as gifts, but some also for horrendous prices.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41277425

    And Remainers on here think we're unreasonable. We've got nothing on the Germans.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    edited September 2017
    tlg86 said:

    A Cologne statement read: "Due to the enormous demand for tickets, it would have been sensible, not least for security reasons, to allow more than the allocated 5% of stadium capacity to the guest fans.

    "It was apparent that thousands of people from Cologne would seek to avoid the restrictions and get tickets in every way possible.

    "One such way would be through the help of Arsenal supporters, who passed on their tickets to the FC fans. Some as gifts, but some also for horrendous prices.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41277425

    And Remainers on here think we're unreasonable. We've got nothing on the Germans.

    Speaking of Germany an Infratest poll yesterday had the AfD on 12% (the same voteshare UKIP got here in 2015) in a clear third and just 8% behind the SPD. The CDU is a clear first on 37% though still down on the last general election
    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/dimap.htm
  • I get the feeling Mike's going to be writing a thread on this

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/908741043939659778
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    edited September 2017



    We've been through all this before. It's not exactly hard to find the truth:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222

    I'm hardly likely to make up something so well-known, am I?

    Nothing has changed AFAIK. EU negotiating guidelines allow a direction to be set for a future trade arrangement and they acknowledge the UK has requested a comprehensive FTA. The actual negotiations however aren't part of A50, but will take place after Brexit. This means amongst other things that any Article 50 cash settlement can't be tied to a specific trade arrangement as it won't exist at that time of withdrawal. It could be tied to a transition arrangement but the amount may be more than an exit fee in that case. It's semantic though. The withdrawal agreement will say such and such a future arrangement has been agreed in principle, such and such transition arrangements apply; such and such an amount is payable.
  • HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    A Cologne statement read: "Due to the enormous demand for tickets, it would have been sensible, not least for security reasons, to allow more than the allocated 5% of stadium capacity to the guest fans.

    "It was apparent that thousands of people from Cologne would seek to avoid the restrictions and get tickets in every way possible.

    "One such way would be through the help of Arsenal supporters, who passed on their tickets to the FC fans. Some as gifts, but some also for horrendous prices.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41277425

    And Remainers on here think we're unreasonable. We've got nothing on the Germans.

    Speaking of Germany an Infratest poll this week has the AfD on 12% (the same voteshare UKIP got here in 2015) in a clear third and just 8% behind the SPD. The CDU is a clear first on 37% though still down on the last general election
    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/dimap.htm
    That poll does have a bit of a look of an outlier about it. Now, outliers have sometimes been right when herding happens among the rest but 12 is the best score that AfD have had since February (when they probably really were about there). My instinct would be to say that it was an unfortunately timed MoE boost for them. That said, the SPD have been on a decline through the campaign and it wouldn't be a surprise for some of that lost share to go AfD (in a general splintering).

    However, Merkel is still going to have a job on her hands forming a stable government. The one thing that is clear is that no-one else will be able to do so but:

    CDU(+CSU but I'm going to take them as one for convenience) + FDP: probably won't have the numbers. Knife-edge at best
    CDU+Green: also won't have the numbers.
    CDU+Green+FDP: Greens very probably won't work with FPD.
    CDU+SDP: Unlikely to be up for another Grand Coalition when it's killing them.
    CDU+Linke: Lol. Not the numbers anyway.
    CDU+AfD: No-one will go near them and that's how they like it.

    If I had to guess right now, I'd predict a CDU-FDP coalition with some kind of confidence and supply understanding with the Greens.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    edited September 2017

    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    A Cologne statement read: "Due to the enormous demand for tickets, it would have been sensible, not least for security reasons, to allow more than the allocated 5% of stadium capacity to the guest fans.

    "It was apparent that thousands of people from Cologne would seek to avoid the restrictions and get tickets in every way possible.

    "One such way would be through the help of Arsenal supporters, who passed on their tickets to the FC fans. Some as gifts, but some also for horrendous prices.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41277425

    And Remainers on here think we're unreasonable. We've got nothing on the Germans.

    Speaking of Germany an Infratest poll this week has the AfD on 12% (the same voteshare UKIP got here in 2015) in a clear third and just 8% behind the SPD. The CDU is a clear first on 37% though still down on the last general election
    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/dimap.htm
    That poll does have a bit of a look of an outlier about it. Now, outliers have sometimes been right when herding happens among the rest but 12 is the best score that AfD have had since February (when they probably really were about there). My instinct would be to say that it was an unfortunately timed MoE boost for them. That said, the SPD have been on a decline through the campaign and it wouldn't be a surprise for some of that lost share to go AfD (in a general splintering).

    However, Merkel is still going to have a job on her hands forming a stable government. The one thing that is clear is that no-one else will be able to do so but:

    CDU(+CSU but I'm going to take them as one for convenience) + FDP: probably won't have the numbers. Knife-edge at best
    CDU+Green: also won't have the numbers.
    CDU+Green+FDP: Greens very probably won't work with FPD.
    CDU+SDP: Unlikely to be up for another Grand Coalition when it's killing them.
    CDU+Linke: Lol. Not the numbers anyway.
    CDU+AfD: No-one will go near them and that's how they like it.

    If I had to guess right now, I'd predict a CDU-FDP coalition with some kind of confidence and supply understanding with the Greens.
    Quite possibly and the CSU probably won't work with the Greens either or it could just be a CDU/CSU minority government
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.
  • Satisfaction ratings for Merkel's government are the highest going into the election of any of her previous defences.
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/908754481092886530
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,524
    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    I was talking to a German friend who follows politics closely. FWIW he was confident the SPD would agree a coalition with the CDU if no viable alternative was available. It is expected of them and politicians prefer to be in government than not to be, so they can rationalise it. The other person at our table went along with his analysis.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,457
    RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,818
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories

    Well it did get them at least one vote. I went full Tory on GE day, although these days I just pine for the days of the coalition. Now that was a government you could tolerate.
  • I get the feeling Mike's going to be writing a thread on this

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/908741043939659778

    And in the comment piece it goes on to say labour have lost the 8 point lead they had over the conservatives 46 - 38 last time - now 42 - 41

    Looks like the Independent are giving 'fake' headlines
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,818

    RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
    I think Johnson's genuinely popular days are behind him, frankly. He's been in the public I too long to be particularly endearing anymore.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    FF43 said:

    I was talking to a German friend who follows politics closely. FWIW he was confident the SPD would agree a coalition with the CDU if no viable alternative was available. It is expected of them and politicians prefer to be in government than not to be, so they can rationalise it. The other person at our table went along with his analysis.

    And on Mike's theory that the leader ratings are what counts, his issue with the SPD is Schultz. "Small town mayor" he just doesn't have the credibility as leader that Merkel enjoys.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    I'll admit to not knowing that much about German politics, but I wouldn't assume all of those parties would work together.
    FF43 said:

    I was talking to a German friend who follows politics closely. FWIW he was confident the SPD would agree a coalition with the CDU if no viable alternative was available. It is expected of them and politicians prefer to be in government than not to be, so they can rationalise it. The other person at our table went along with his analysis.

    If there is another grand coalition, the other parties will continue to grow at the expense of the SPD. Come the next election, I doubt that the grand coalition will be a possibility.
  • RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
    Maybe raging is pushing it but a success is perfectly possible
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681

    Satisfaction ratings for Merkel's government are the highest going into the election of any of her previous defences.
    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/908754481092886530

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,818

    RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
    Maybe raging is pushing it but a success is perfectly possible
    A success has to be raging before the average person not already on board will recognise it as success.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,843
    edited September 2017
    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    kle4 said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Not a lot of movement between the big two, is there? Consistent with the tied poll this week.

    Should Labour not be worried about this? The government is taking brick bats from remainers in the media every day, they are having even harsher swipes from Osborne, they seem in a muddle and to have very few ideas, the country is sick of austerity and wages are falling in real terms. If Labour can't build a substantial lead now, then when?

    But the Tories need a 25% poll lead going into the general election campaign.

    Corbyn loves campaigning, Mrs May doesn't.
    No they don't, Cameron trailed in almost half the polls in 2015 as did Major in 1992 and both won majorities.

    Boris is also.more likely to be leading the Tories than May and he is probably the best campaigner the Tories have having won 2 London Mayoral elections and an EU referendum, Corbyn for all his gains still lost the last general election
    Oh yes they do.
    No they don't, for starters the pollsters were overcompensating for 2015 so the Tories never had a 20 point lead anyway and Corbyn will actually have to win Tory voters next time not just squeeze the LD, Green and SNP and UKIP votes as he mainly did last time. Clearly about 40%+ of the electorate would vote Tory to stop Corbyn even if a dead parrot was leading the Tories

    Well it did get them at least one vote. I went full Tory on GE day, although these days I just pine for the days of the coalition. Now that was a government you could tolerate.
    Perhaps the best since the New Labour government of 1997-2001 to some eyes but there we go
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,457
    edited September 2017

    RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
    Maybe raging is pushing it but a success is perfectly possible
    For Labour to sink to circa 50 seats I stick by 'raging', nonetheless I will be surprised if Brexit (in the short term at least) is anything but a fiasco!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
    I think Johnson's genuinely popular days are behind him, frankly. He's been in the public I too long to be particularly endearing anymore.
    The latest Survation has Boris the favoured successor of both Tories and voters as a whole, with Tories 21% want him to succeed May, followed by 15% for JRM and 12% for Hammond, with voters as a whole 19% want him to succeed May followed by JRM on 9% and Hammond on 8%
    http://survation.com/labours-poll-lead-mays-challengers/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681


    RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
    Maybe raging is pushing it but a success is perfectly possible
    For Labour to sink to circa 50 seats I stick by 'raging', nonetheless I will be surprised if Brexit (in the short term at least) is anything but a fiasco!
    Boris if he takes over will call a general election by mid 2020
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    Even those final 2013 polls had the CDU polling higher then they are now and the AfD are polling significantly higher than they were then
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,457
    HYUFD said:


    RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
    Maybe raging is pushing it but a success is perfectly possible
    For Labour to sink to circa 50 seats I stick by 'raging', nonetheless I will be surprised if Brexit (in the short term at least) is anything but a fiasco!
    Boris if he takes over will call a general election by mid 2020
    Boris if he has any sense will call an election while his stock remains high, i.e. straight after he becomes PM.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    So did the CDU/CSU get as many seats as they did because the FDP and the AFD just missed the 5% threshold?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    edited September 2017

    HYUFD said:


    RobD said:

    stevef said:

    Self denying prophecies are a powerful force in politics. Predict something is going to happen and the opposite occurs. In 2010, the Tories were expected to comfortably defeat Gordon Brown, and there was a hung parliament. In 2015, Labour was expected to be the biggest party in a hung parliament -and there was a Tory majority. In 2017, the Tories were expected to win a landslide, and there was a hung parliament.

    The wide expectation is that Corbyn will win next time......

    Tory landslide 1931-style :D
    With a clown like Corbyn behind the Labour wheel, a popular Tory running their show and Brexit turning into a raging success, yes it is possible. The first condition is a given, the second plausible (Mr Johnson?) but the third condition highly unlikely.
    Maybe raging is pushing it but a success is perfectly possible
    For Labour to sink to circa 50 seats I stick by 'raging', nonetheless I will be surprised if Brexit (in the short term at least) is anything but a fiasco!
    Boris if he takes over will call a general election by mid 2020
    Boris if he has any sense will call an election while his stock remains high, i.e. straight after he becomes PM.
    He wouldn't become PM until autumn 2019 at the earliest most likely, May having stepped down as Tory leader in late spring allowing a summer leadership contest, so October 2019 is also a possibility as well as Spring 2020
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,524
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    Not entirely convinced by that. The German Greens are not our Greens. They support Merkel on many issues. UK Greens are more like Die Linke.
  • Expense account rail update:

    ' Work to bring HS2 to Sheffield could leave commuters facing more than five years of disruption, according to a presentation seen by the BBC.

    According to the PowerPoint presentation, provided as part of a Freedom of Information request, the "station footprint would expand beyond current boundary to encroach the tram and road network".

    It adds: "Such an outcome is anticipated to drive infrastructure costs and lead to disruption of at least five years, requiring reconfiguration of both tram and road networks."

    The documents also suggests that to make way for HS2 one train an hour could be removed from the Dearne Valley line and impact on journey times between Sheffield and Leeds. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-41277560
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    In a few weeks' time the Germans might wish they had first past the post.

    Why? They have had years and years of coalitions at national and local level. It doesn't seem to have harmed them. If a black, green yellow coalition is required by the numbers, then that will happen. It is how things are done.
    There may be a black yellow coalition there won't be one including the Greens as the CSU won't have it, confidence and supply at best
    Not entirely convinced by that. The German Greens are not our Greens. They support Merkel on many issues. UK Greens are more like Die Linke.
    Yes but there is no way the CSU would agree to a deal with the Greens ahead of the AfD, especially as their conservative base in Bavaria would erupt. A minority government is more likely than a full coalition with the Greens
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,524
    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    All very well but most polls have the CDU down on the 2013 election, just the SPD are also down

    Remember that in 2013 Merkel came very close to an absolute majority and outperformed all the final polls.

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/archiv/2013.htm

    If there are some surprises with the minor parties underperforming, the arithmetic could suddenly look very different.
    So did the CDU/CSU get as many seats as they did because the FDP and the AFD just missed the 5% threshold?
    Yes.
This discussion has been closed.