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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Kim Jong-un makes Sir Michael Fallon Prime Minister

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    As it happens, I'm off to Hungary this evening to deal with the current crop of fruit. I understand the pears are ready and I'm expected to get up a ladder and deal with plums as well. The walnut broom is the greatest invention ever.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Mr. City, they are changing it so you need (online, at least) to enter details to use the iPlayer, but that might still be a fake e-mail. I wouldn't open it. If you need to sign up/enter details, do so at the BBC site.

    Cheers Morris
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,993
    Morning all :)

    My first chance to comment for a few days so instead on whingeing on about the Evening Standard and the fact its cartoonist isn't supine enough to the Government - Osborne shells it out to May and Corbyn in equal measure so he's quite even-handed - I'd muse on other things.

    The immigration "plans" are obviously of interest and rarely for an opinion poll, the Britain Future poll quoted by HYUFD earlier in the week had me in the majority on both questions. No one can seriously argue there is no place for those bringing much-needed skills to the country or even for those wishing to learn and take that knowledge back to their own country.

    The "problem" is the low-skill migration we have always had especially when the economy grows and whether that "cheap labour" comes from Eastern Europe, the Caribbean or wherever it has always been needed. The real issues come with a shortage of skilled labour and when those in key trades can command ever higher salaries (that's the market for you), wage inflation begins to take off with all that follows. The 80s boom ended when, especially in the south, we not only reached full employment but there were shortages in key areas.

    However, for every skilled widget-maker (or whatever), there's someone needed to clean the place where they work. Oddly enough, automaton and investment in R&D is more likely to challenge the widget-maker than the hairdresser, barista or toilet cleaner.

    I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about the proposed lifting of the public sector pay cap. Apart from its transparent cynicism and opportunism (and don't assume there aren't a lot of Conservatives working in the public sector), there are other aspects - not all Councils are part of national pay bargaining (some have opted out) so UNISON, the GMB, UNITE and others will doubtless be seeking to get these Councils to move beyond the 1% pay cap.

    And yet - from where will the funds to provide additional salary originate ? Efficiency savings (or cuts if you prefer) is one possibility or will May actually offer more real cash to authorities to fund this as she did with Adult Social Care when Surrey (and others) kicked up a fuss ? The financial pressures on Council budgets are well documented so even if a Council would like to pay some of its workers (particularly those at the bottom end of the organisation) more, how will they be able to ?
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,039
    Jean Claude Junker tries to undermine his opponent - Shocker!
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    The drunken old fool probably sat talking to himself in a mirror and didn't realise it.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    "Stability" is fighting talk, if it isn't a mistranslation of something else.
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    As it happens, I'm off to Hungary this evening to deal with the current crop of fruit. I understand the pears are ready and I'm expected to get up a ladder and deal with plums as well. The walnut broom is the greatest invention ever.

    A rare example of a fruit-picking migrant going in the opposite direction.
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    Looks like they are trying to bore us into submission.

    As I was saying earlier today, the geographical indications stuff in the IP paper looks very innocuous, but has the potential to be a big problem in US/UK trade talks. The US hates the EU GI regime:
    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44556.pdf
    Throw in chlorinated chicken, restrictions on importing beef injected with hormones and other food safety issues, and the immensely powerful agricultural lobby in the US has every reason to oppose an FTA with the UK.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,068

    As it happens, I'm off to Hungary this evening to deal with the current crop of fruit. I understand the pears are ready and I'm expected to get up a ladder and deal with plums as well. The walnut broom is the greatest invention ever.

    Enjoy the fresh plums, a fruit that degrades at an extreme rate of knots in a typical supermarket enviroment.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited September 2017

    As I was saying earlier today, the geographical indications stuff in the IP paper looks very innocuous, but has the potential to be a big problem in US/UK trade talks. The US hates the EU GI regime:
    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44556.pdf

    I don't think it's a big problem, actually. You are right that the US doesn't like the GI regime, but that's only because they want to continue to be able to sell disgusting factory-made pap as 'Feta' or 'Parmesan' inside the US. I don't think they'd be at all fussed that they couldn't sell it here under misleading names.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    My first chance to comment for a few days so instead on whingeing on about the Evening Standard and the fact its cartoonist isn't supine enough to the Government - Osborne shells it out to May and Corbyn in equal measure so he's quite even-handed - I'd muse on other things.

    The immigration "plans" are obviously of interest and rarely for an opinion poll, the Britain Future poll quoted by HYUFD earlier in the week had me in the majority on both questions. No one can seriously argue there is no place for those bringing much-needed skills to the country or even for those wishing to learn and take that knowledge back to their own country.

    The "problem" is the low-skill migration we have always had especially when the economy grows and whether that "cheap labour" comes from Eastern Europe, the Caribbean or wherever it has always been needed. The real issues come with a shortage of skilled labour and when those in key trades can command ever higher salaries (that's the market for you), wage inflation begins to take off with all that follows. The 80s boom ended when, especially in the south, we not only reached full employment but there were shortages in key areas.

    However, for every skilled widget-maker (or whatever), there's someone needed to clean the place where they work. Oddly enough, automaton and investment in R&D is more likely to challenge the widget-maker than the hairdresser, barista or toilet cleaner.

    I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion about the proposed lifting of the public sector pay cap. Apart from its transparent cynicism and opportunism (and don't assume there aren't a lot of Conservatives working in the public sector), there are other aspects - not all Councils are part of national pay bargaining (some have opted out) so UNISON, the GMB, UNITE and others will doubtless be seeking to get these Councils to move beyond the 1% pay cap.

    And yet - from where will the funds to provide additional salary originate ? Efficiency savings (or cuts if you prefer) is one possibility or will May actually offer more real cash to authorities to fund this as she did with Adult Social Care when Surrey (and others) kicked up a fuss ? The financial pressures on Council budgets are well documented so even if a Council would like to pay some of its workers (particularly those at the bottom end of the organisation) more, how will they be able to ?

    Are you claiming to find the Standard cartoonist amusing? Really?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533
    Ishmael_Z said:

    You can all fuck right off if post Brexit I have to pick my own fruit and veg.

    I did not work hard at school and university to do manual labour.

    My Oxford college has had the horrible wheeze of getting current undergraduates to ring alumni for a jolly chat and to try and weasel donations (or possibly legacies?) out of them. Not sure whether this is an admission that they will end up working in call centres so they might as well get used to it. On the plus side, I know a bit more about selective call blocking software than I used to.
    I had a charming young lady call me along those lines recently, who was clearly unaware that I'd been sent down. Twice.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,993
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Are you claiming to find the Standard cartoonist amusing? Really?

    Yes, especially when he is tearing a strip off the Prime Minister or David Davis. Said cartoonist also lampooned Corbyn the other day and that was funny too.

    The whole tube carriage convulsed with laughter as one after another people reached the op-ed page of the Standard.

    They might have been laughing at the latest piece from Matthew D'Ancona - he is hilarious as well. He does this parody of being an informed political commentator.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,068
    Nigelb said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    You can all fuck right off if post Brexit I have to pick my own fruit and veg.

    I did not work hard at school and university to do manual labour.

    My Oxford college has had the horrible wheeze of getting current undergraduates to ring alumni for a jolly chat and to try and weasel donations (or possibly legacies?) out of them. Not sure whether this is an admission that they will end up working in call centres so they might as well get used to it. On the plus side, I know a bit more about selective call blocking software than I used to.
    I had a charming young lady call me along those lines recently, who was clearly unaware that I'd been sent down. Twice.
    http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/send-down

    Sent down or sent down ?
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    Even if that were the case, which it manifestly isn't, it's odd that the EU thinks that it's a point they should make, since it looks like a piece of pure vindictiveness on their part.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,039
    edited September 2017
    TGOHF said:

    Compare and contrast to Matt - ES miles behind on humour.
    There's quite a funny reply to Gideon's tweet! (I won't post it as TSE might ban me ;) )
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    You can all fuck right off if post Brexit I have to pick my own fruit and veg.

    I did not work hard at school and university to do manual labour.

    You didn't work hard at school at all. You had a fag to do it all for you.
    The only fag I had as a schoolboy was the ocassional Benson and Hedges Silver.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,068
    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Are you claiming to find the Standard cartoonist amusing? Really?

    Yes, especially when he is tearing a strip off the Prime Minister or David Davis. Said cartoonist also lampooned Corbyn the other day and that was funny too.

    The whole tube carriage convulsed with laughter as one after another people reached the op-ed page of the Standard.

    They might have been laughing at the latest piece from Matthew D'Ancona - he is hilarious as well. He does this parody of being an informed political commentator.

    Blimey, the humour must be different in London !
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,039

    Even if that were the case, which it manifestly isn't, it's odd that the EU thinks that it's a point they should make, since it looks like a piece of pure vindictiveness on their part.
    The EU don't care about looking vindictive?
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    Just had a visit from 2 nice people from IDA (Irish Development Authority). They were gently inquiring what my plans were in case of bad Brexit and offered to respond to any needs I had.

    It seems to me that Theresa like many politicians does not really understand business and the dependence that governments have on those who pay the bills. Scotland over the last 10 years has tried a bottom up nationalistic government for the last 10 years which has worked on redistribution of power from the old elite but has left a devastated economy which is basically broke. The SNP fought with the business over independence and the relationship has never recovered. I have a sinking feeling that the rest of the UK may be following the same path.





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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    You can all fuck right off if post Brexit I have to pick my own fruit and veg.

    I did not work hard at school and university to do manual labour.

    My Oxford college has had the horrible wheeze of getting current undergraduates to ring alumni for a jolly chat and to try and weasel donations (or possibly legacies?) out of them. Not sure whether this is an admission that they will end up working in call centres so they might as well get used to it. On the plus side, I know a bit more about selective call blocking software than I used to.
    I had a charming young lady call me along those lines recently, who was clearly unaware that I'd been sent down. Twice.
    http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/send-down

    Sent down or sent down ?
    By the college, not the bench.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,110
    What are they going to do, kick the UK out? :smiley:
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Are you claiming to find the Standard cartoonist amusing? Really?

    Yes, especially when he is tearing a strip off the Prime Minister or David Davis. Said cartoonist also lampooned Corbyn the other day and that was funny too.

    The whole tube carriage convulsed with laughter as one after another people reached the op-ed page of the Standard.

    They might have been laughing at the latest piece from Matthew D'Ancona - he is hilarious as well. He does this parody of being an informed political commentator.

    Cripes. I was genuinely expecting a cross-party consensus on the talent of the "cartoonist".
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    Yet not trade deals with the US, China, Russia, India or Nigeria or Australia as the EU does not have any with those nations
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    As I was saying earlier today, the geographical indications stuff in the IP paper looks very innocuous, but has the potential to be a big problem in US/UK trade talks. The US hates the EU GI regime:
    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44556.pdf

    I don't think it's a big problem, actually. You are right that the US doesn't like the GI regime, but that's only because they want to continue to be able to sell disgusting factory-made pap as 'Feta' or 'Parmesan' inside the US. I don't think they'd be at all fussed that they couldn't sell it here under misleading names.

    On its own it is certainly solveable, but it is part of a bigger issue: which regulatory regime does the UK go with post-Brexit? The one that will enable ongoing trade with the EU or the the one that will make it easier to get an FTA with the US? If we continue with the EU GI and food safety regime it makes a deal with the Americans much harder. If we don't, it makes trade with the EU much harder. Either way, we are going to have to adopt rules whose parameters have been set by others.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    edited September 2017

    RobD said:

    Donald Trump Is Making Europe Liberal Again

    "Merkel, for instance, has often been criticized by Trump and has often criticized him back. Her popularity has increased, and her advisers have half-jokingly credited the “Trump factor” for the sharp rebound in her approval ratings over the past year.

    By contrast, U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May has a warmer relationship with Trump. She was the first foreign leader to visit Trump in January after his inauguration, when she congratulated him on his “stunning electoral victory.” But she was criticized for not pushing back on Trump as much as her European colleagues or her rivals from other parties after Trump withdrew the U.S. from the Paris climate accords on June 1 and then instigated a fight with the mayor of London after the terrorist attack in London two days later. Her Conservatives suffered a humiliating result, blowing a 17 percentage point polling lead and losing their majority in Parliament; it’s now not clear how much longer she’ll continue as prime minister. Trump was not May’s only problem, but he certainly didn’t help."
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-making-europe-liberal-again/

    I think Merkel's popularity has more to do with Schulz being crap.

    If you look at Merkel's polling recovery it does coincide with her trip to the US. I don't think Trump behaving totally cretinously around her did her much harm at home, put it that way. What's striking is that mainstream European politicians who are perceived to be close to Trump (close being a relative term, of course) tend to fare badly in electoral terms. It happened to May - and just look at Macron's decline since he invited Trump to France. Of course, Trump's election in the US and Brexit in the UK was also supposed to herald the rise of right wing populism across Europe, but that hasn't happened either. Trump has set the right back a long way on this side of the pond.

    Very true. Trump has utterly toxified hard-Right populism. Look at its manifestations around the world: the alt-right, Farage, Putin. They now look very dreary and tired, when once they looked set to conquer the world. (Of course, in light of this changing zeitgeist, the British hard Right are yearning for the ascendancy of Jacob Rees-Mogg.)
    Except in Germany latest polls have the CDU down on the 2013 general election and the AfD jumping from 6th to 3rd and in Italy the Northern League are also up and 5* ahead in some polls

    In New Zealand New Zealand First may hold the balance of power later this month and One Nation is also up in the polls in Australia

    So little real evidence for your thesis
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Interesting thread header, @TSE, many thanks.

    Good afternoon, everyone.
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    RobD said:

    What are they going to do, kick the UK out? :smiley:

    It's probably more a reminder to countries that the UK might want to negotiate with.

    And, of course, if there is a cliff-edge Brexit it is not only the FTAs that the UK drops out of on departure from the EU, but all other agreements to which we are a party as a result of our EU membership.

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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,505
    edited September 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Yet not trade deals with the US, China, Russia, India or Nigeria or Australia as the EU does not have any with those nations
    What's this then? Scotch mist?

    Agreement on Trade and Economic Cooperation between the European Economic Community and the People's Republic of China
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    Scott_P said:
    Superb piece by Ozzy! It should take its place alongside the works of Milton, Burke and Paine as a defence of democracy.
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    RobD said:

    What are they going to do, kick the UK out? :smiley:

    It's probably more a reminder to countries that the UK might want to negotiate with.

    And, of course, if there is a cliff-edge Brexit it is not only the FTAs that the UK drops out of on departure from the EU, but all other agreements to which we are a party as a result of our EU membership.
    Don't the EU's FTAs include access to the UK market - so without agreement the EU too 'crashes out'?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,110

    RobD said:

    What are they going to do, kick the UK out? :smiley:

    It's probably more a reminder to countries that the UK might want to negotiate with.

    And, of course, if there is a cliff-edge Brexit it is not only the FTAs that the UK drops out of on departure from the EU, but all other agreements to which we are a party as a result of our EU membership.

    Nothing stoping preliminary negotiations getting underway, although they will no doubt want to see what the final UK-EU deal looks like before going further.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,973
    edited September 2017
    David Davis:

    I don't read the Evening Standard.
    It sounds like with good reason.
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    Nearly all Tory MPs now agree Theresa May should stay on as Prime Minister. She must get the party through Brexit, they say. A leadership contest now would risk splitting the party over the European issue. One senior Tory who was agitating to depose May back in July has told me that he has now decided it would be best if she stays until 2019.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/theresa-mays-exit-strategy/

    Yes. She either needed be deposed of immediately after the election or backed through to the conclusion of Brexit talks, though such backing has to remain conditional on her not abusing it.
    Theresa is in it for the long term. She has no intention of relinquishing power. To cement her authority she needs to start altering the Tory mindset - make her leadership like Brexit in that any criticism of it is tantamount to treason. (This has already started and is looking to be effective.)
    It hasn't started and it can't be effective because she will forever have the shadow of the 2017 election hanging over her. In any case, if the Tory Party could dump Thatcher - for whom there was immense reverence - it can certainly dump May. I agree that she seems to be in it for the long term but I really don't see how she achieves that. The politics and economics of Brexit will not help.
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    Gosh!. Ozzy is withering about those slippery old hypocrites DD and Rees-Mogg.

    The old David Davis, as a backbencher, voted against the Tory whip more than any other Tory MP, justifying his serial rebellions — and, once, his own self-inflicted by-election — on the grounds that the power of the executive had to be constrained.

    The new David Davis will today be on the frontbench whipping colleagues to give the Government what in practice amounts to carte-blanche powers in the Brexit bill to alter the law with minimal parliamentary oversight.

    Equally, Jacob Rees-Mogg’s religious fanaticism was once matched by a fanatical commitment to the principle of representative parliamentary democracy.

    Not any more. The new Rees-Mogg sees MPs as ciphers, there to rubber-stamp the will of the people – the claim of absolutists down the ages.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,671
    edited September 2017
    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,039
    edited September 2017

    Scott_P said:
    It should take its place alongside the works of Milton, Burke and Paine as a defence of democracy.
    Seriously? It's just a spoilt rich boy throwing his toys out the pram because he blew the referendum and was then sacked because of his failure.

    If Tessa has kept him on as CotE do you think he'd now be the champion of Parliament? He never was before...
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    Miss JGP, good afternoon.

    Miss Vance, do pay attention. The EU is an indivisible ongoing, separate organisation when it suits it (for FTAs) and is merely a collection of nation states when it doesn't (free movement for British citizens post-departure, if such can be agree for EU citizens to the UK).

    I do wonder how the Visegrad and migrants situation will be resolved.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533

    David Davis:

    I don't read the Evening Standard.
    It sounds like with good reason.

    "I haven't read those nasty things he's saying about me.... honestly."
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    You can all fuck right off if post Brexit I have to pick my own fruit and veg.

    I did not work hard at school and university to do manual labour.

    My first jobs after university were as a night porter and kitchen porter
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,039
    edited September 2017

    Nearly all Tory MPs now agree Theresa May should stay on as Prime Minister. She must get the party through Brexit, they say. A leadership contest now would risk splitting the party over the European issue. One senior Tory who was agitating to depose May back in July has told me that he has now decided it would be best if she stays until 2019.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/theresa-mays-exit-strategy/

    Yes. She either needed be deposed of immediately after the election or backed through to the conclusion of Brexit talks, though such backing has to remain conditional on her not abusing it.
    Theresa is in it for the long term. She has no intention of relinquishing power. To cement her authority she needs to start altering the Tory mindset - make her leadership like Brexit in that any criticism of it is tantamount to treason. (This has already started and is looking to be effective.)
    It hasn't started and it can't be effective because she will forever have the shadow of the 2017 election hanging over her. In any case, if the Tory Party could dump Thatcher - for whom there was immense reverence - it can certainly dump May. I agree that she seems to be in it for the long term but I really don't see how she achieves that. The politics and economics of Brexit will not help.
    What would happen to Theresa if serious military conflict broke out with North Korea?

    Do you think she could transform into a war leader? Or would a nuclear conflict just highlight all her inadequacies even more?
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    HYUFD said:

    You can all fuck right off if post Brexit I have to pick my own fruit and veg.

    I did not work hard at school and university to do manual labour.

    My first jobs after university were as a night porter and kitchen porter
    You went to Oxford didn't you ?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,273
    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    LOL! As you come south off Waterloo Bridge and down towards the IMAX, there is a guy every evening trying to give away the Evening Standard. I've never seen anyone take one.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,671
    So he's giving individual judges the power to decide whether the ECJ should be paramount.

    No wonder Neuberger was incandescent.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    GIN1138 said:

    Nearly all Tory MPs now agree Theresa May should stay on as Prime Minister. She must get the party through Brexit, they say. A leadership contest now would risk splitting the party over the European issue. One senior Tory who was agitating to depose May back in July has told me that he has now decided it would be best if she stays until 2019.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/theresa-mays-exit-strategy/

    Yes. She either needed be deposed of immediately after the election or backed through to the conclusion of Brexit talks, though such backing has to remain conditional on her not abusing it.
    Theresa is in it for the long term. She has no intention of relinquishing power. To cement her authority she needs to start altering the Tory mindset - make her leadership like Brexit in that any criticism of it is tantamount to treason. (This has already started and is looking to be effective.)
    It hasn't started and it can't be effective because she will forever have the shadow of the 2017 election hanging over her. In any case, if the Tory Party could dump Thatcher - for whom there was immense reverence - it can certainly dump May. I agree that she seems to be in it for the long term but I really don't see how she achieves that. The politics and economics of Brexit will not help.
    What would happen to Theresa is serious military conflict broke out with North Korea?

    Do you think she could transform into a war leader? Or would a serious nuclear conflict just highlight all her inadequacies?
    If the US is destroyed she becomes the leader of the free world, if Japan and China are also destroyed the UK and Germany become the world's biggest economies followed by India and France
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    Yet not trade deals with the US, China, Russia, India or Nigeria or Australia as the EU does not have any with those nations
    What's this then? Scotch mist?

    Agreement on Trade and Economic Cooperation between the European Economic Community and the People's Republic of China
    Not yet a full FTA
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,993
    edited September 2017
    HYUFD said:


    Except in Germany latest polls have the CDU down on the 2013 general election and the AfD jumping from 6th to 3rd and in Italy the Northern League are also up and 5* ahead in some polls

    In New Zealand New Zealand First may hold the balance of power later this month and One Nation is also up in the polls in Australia

    So little real evidence for your thesis

    Indeed, it's traditional centre-right parties that seem to be struggling. Perhaps this is just cyclical - a number of countries saw centre-right Governments take over during the financial crisis as voters swung away from centre-left profligacy to solid economic management.

    Nearly a decade on and that seems old and tired. I'm also not entirely convinced said centre-right parties have entirely resolved the fundamental issues which triggered the 2007-08 crisis in the first place. Levels of consumer and personal debt remain very high and I'm not convinced the banking system is as robust as might be hoped.

    In NZ, an overnight Colmar Brunton Poll put Labour on 43 and National on 39 - the shock is the latter figure, not the former. National haven't been below 40 in a poll for some time - it's the equivalent of the Conservatives going sub-30 in a UK poll. NZ First is on 9 and the Greens on 5. Colmar Brunton's numbers are slightly outside what other polls are saying - another poll earlier in the week had National still in front.

    Given our own experience with polls perhaps a healthy dose of scepticism is required but Labour are challenging hard with barely a fortnight to go. IF the Greens get over the 5% threshold to enter the NZ Parliament, a Labour-Green coalition becomes possible but if the Greens miss out, Winston Peters and NZ First will be in the box seat and he has taken a leaf out of the Nick Clegg playbook and said he will deal with the party with the largest number of votes first.

    Peters has a mixed record with National down the years it's fair to say.

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    It should take its place alongside the works of Milton, Burke and Paine as a defence of democracy.
    Seriously? It's just a spoilt rich boy throwing his toys out the pram because he blew the referendum and was then sacked because of his failure.

    If Tessa has kept him on as CotE do you think he'd now be the champion of Parliament? He never was before...
    Classic ad hominem.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    You can all fuck right off if post Brexit I have to pick my own fruit and veg.

    I did not work hard at school and university to do manual labour.

    My first jobs after university were as a night porter and kitchen porter
    You went to Oxford didn't you ?
    No but I know Oxford graduates who worked in warehouses in the holidays, including one who got a 1st in Maths
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,671
    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    LOL! As you come south off Waterloo Bridge and down towards the IMAX, there is a guy every evening trying to give away the Evening Standard. I've never seen anyone take one.
    LOL x 2

    You are saying it is a little-read rag?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    edited September 2017
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Except in Germany latest polls have the CDU down on the 2013 general election and the AfD jumping from 6th to 3rd and in Italy the Northern League are also up and 5* ahead in some polls

    In New Zealand New Zealand First may hold the balance of power later this month and One Nation is also up in the polls in Australia

    So little real evidence for your thesis

    Indeed, it's traditional centre-right parties that seem to be struggling. Perhaps this is just cyclical - a number of countries saw centre-right Governments take over during the financial crisis as voters swung away from centre-left profligacy to solid economic management.

    Nearly a decade on and that seems old and tired. I'm also not entirely convinced said centre-right parties have entirely resolved the fundamental issues which triggered the 2007-08 crisis in the first place. Levels of consumer and personal debt remain very high and I'm not convinced the banking system is as robust as might be hoped.

    In NZ, an overnight Colmar Brunton Poll put Labour on 43 and National on 39 - the shock is the latter figure, not the former. National haven't been below 40 in a poll for some time - it's the equivalent of the Conservatives going sub-30 in a UK poll. NZ First is on 9 and the Greens on 5. Colmar Brunton's numbers are slightly outside what other polls are saying - another poll earlier in the week had National still in front.

    Given our own experience with polls perhaps a healthy dose of scepticism is required but Labour are challenging hard with barely a fortnight to go. IF the Greens get over the 5% threshold to enter the NZ Parliament, a Labour-Green coalition becomes possible but if the Greens miss out, Winston Peters and NZ First will be in the box seat and he has taken a leaf out of the Nick Clegg playbook and said he will deal with the party with the largest number of votes first.

    Peters has a mixed record with National down the years it's fair to say.

    Yes Peters is again powerbrokers it seems.

    The populist left is also still on the rise, see Die Linke 4th in Germany, Melenchon a close 4th in France, Syriza still in power in Greece, Podemos sometimes second in Spain, Sanders almost winning the Democratic nomination in 2016 etc plus Corbyn of course
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,039
    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    It should take its place alongside the works of Milton, Burke and Paine as a defence of democracy.
    Seriously? It's just a spoilt rich boy throwing his toys out the pram because he blew the referendum and was then sacked because of his failure.

    If Tessa has kept him on as CotE do you think he'd now be the champion of Parliament? He never was before...
    Classic ad hominem.
    Well he's attacking the "character" of Davis and JRM so he's fair game surely?
  • Options
    F1: the powers that be think they'll solve dislike of the halo by having a different colour one for the title leader (as per the yellow jersey for the Tour de France).

    Hmm.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    GIN1138 said:

    Even if that were the case, which it manifestly isn't, it's odd that the EU thinks that it's a point they should make, since it looks like a piece of pure vindictiveness on their part.
    The EU don't care about looking vindictive?
    I have pointed this out before (as have others) that whilst I can see the EU's tactics I seriously don't think they have thought through a strategy for what they want from a relationship with us in the future.

    I have suggested a kind of Canada to their USA would be ideal but if they continue to try and wag fingers and "educate" us it'll end up more like Japan and China, at which point I begin to question Nato. Why the hell would I want to defend Estonia, (although a blameless little place in itself I'm sure) where I think we have some tanks and planes at present, if old Vlad wants it back, if it's part of a block that has got the hump with us because we decided to leave the "voluntary" club.

    I'd defend N America and Norway and even Turkey, that's done nothing untoward to us, but the rest?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533
    GIN1138 said:

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    It should take its place alongside the works of Milton, Burke and Paine as a defence of democracy.
    Seriously? It's just a spoilt rich boy throwing his toys out the pram because he blew the referendum and was then sacked because of his failure.

    If Tessa has kept him on as CotE do you think he'd now be the champion of Parliament? He never was before...
    Classic ad hominem.
    Well he's attacking the "character" of Davis and JRM so he's fair game surely?
    Perhaps he is, but it hardly invalidates his criticism, as you seem to suggest.
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    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nearly all Tory MPs now agree Theresa May should stay on as Prime Minister. She must get the party through Brexit, they say. A leadership contest now would risk splitting the party over the European issue. One senior Tory who was agitating to depose May back in July has told me that he has now decided it would be best if she stays until 2019.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/theresa-mays-exit-strategy/

    Yes. She either needed be deposed of immediately after the election or backed through to the conclusion of Brexit talks, though such backing has to remain conditional on her not abusing it.
    Theresa is in it for the long term. She has no intention of relinquishing power. To cement her authority she needs to start altering the Tory mindset - make her leadership like Brexit in that any criticism of it is tantamount to treason. (This has already started and is looking to be effective.)
    It hasn't started and it can't be effective because she will forever have the shadow of the 2017 election hanging over her. In any case, if the Tory Party could dump Thatcher - for whom there was immense reverence - it can certainly dump May. I agree that she seems to be in it for the long term but I really don't see how she achieves that. The politics and economics of Brexit will not help.
    What would happen to Theresa is serious military conflict broke out with North Korea?

    Do you think she could transform into a war leader? Or would a serious nuclear conflict just highlight all her inadequacies?
    If the US is destroyed she becomes the leader of the free world, if Japan and China are also destroyed the UK and Germany become the world's biggest economies followed by India and France
    A silver lining, then?
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,993
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    LOL! As you come south off Waterloo Bridge and down towards the IMAX, there is a guy every evening trying to give away the Evening Standard. I've never seen anyone take one.
    LOL x 2

    You are saying it is a little-read rag?
    Indeed. The Standard is available all over London and the SE and you can barely turn a corner without finding a seller or a container. They arrive at Surbiton at 4.30 and are snapped up both by those coming back from town and those heading off to London.

    As to whether the Standard's own claims for copies distributed are valid, it's impossible to say as a single copy could be read by a number of people.

    To imply it's not well read is nonsense in the extreme - whether it has any influence is another question.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533
    edited September 2017

    F1: the powers that be think they'll solve dislike of the halo by having a different colour one for the title leader (as per the yellow jersey for the Tour de France).

    Hmm.

    I posted a link to that story a couple of days back in the hope of winding you up, Mr.D...
    :smile:

    The yellow Halo looks like a piss poor attempt at McDonalds branding.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533
    Neologism (or Guardian typo) of the day:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/eu-citizens-in-disbelief-over-uks-leaked-brexit-proposals
    “...it’s evident that the reputation of the UK is in shatters”
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    Mr Glenn,

    "Jean-Claude Juncker scathing on David Davis."

    Piss-pot calls kettle black?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,273
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    LOL! As you come south off Waterloo Bridge and down towards the IMAX, there is a guy every evening trying to give away the Evening Standard. I've never seen anyone take one.
    LOL x 2

    You are saying it is a little-read rag?
    I'll be honest, I can't remember when they started paying someone to try and force it into people's hands, but I'm pretty sure it's since Osborne took over.
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    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    Yes. Along with Adams - creator of the most perspicacious and beautifully drawn cartoons around at the moment - Osborne's deft analyses are providing a crucial counterweight to the government's creeping authoritarianism and arrogance. Witty and engaging yet insightful and robust, Osborne personifies the finest elements of the British psyche.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,039
    welshowl said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Even if that were the case, which it manifestly isn't, it's odd that the EU thinks that it's a point they should make, since it looks like a piece of pure vindictiveness on their part.
    The EU don't care about looking vindictive?
    I have pointed this out before (as have others) that whilst I can see the EU's tactics I seriously don't think they have thought through a strategy for what they want from a relationship with us in the future.

    I have suggested a kind of Canada to their USA would be ideal but if they continue to try and wag fingers and "educate" us it'll end up more like Japan and China, at which point I begin to question Nato. Why the hell would I want to defend Estonia, (although a blameless little place in itself I'm sure) where I think we have some tanks and planes at present, if old Vlad wants it back, if it's part of a block that has got the hump with us because we decided to leave the "voluntary" club.

    I'd defend N America and Norway and even Turkey, that's done nothing untoward to us, but the rest?
    I said ages ago it's time to pull the plug on NATO (or our involvement in it any way)
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Off topic .I just received a fake e mail I presume , say it is from the BBC saying I have to re register my BBC account details again to be able to receive I player.I have never registered with. BBC account. I still get I player , is this changing and you will have to register ? I pay my TV licence on line .

    It may be a fake but actually you do have to now register in order to get iplayer. The BBC have had warnings about this on their iplayer stuff for several months giving you the option to register early or wait until they won't let you in and do it then.
    Thank you Richard much appreciated missed your post earlier.Hope you are well.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,993
    HYUFD said:


    Yes Peters is again powerbrokers it seems.

    His career is extraordinary and far more successful than, for example, Nigel Farage. To be fair, NZ First is not UKIP - it's what UKIP could have been or become.

    Peters is a social conservative and his views on Asian immigration into NZ are well known. He is a small-State supporter of tax cuts but anti-big business or rather opposed to an economic policy overtly favourable to big business. He has successfully cultivated support among the elderly and he stormed home in Northland in a by-election in 2015.

    He was once a Cabinet Minister in Jim Bolger's Government - as an aside, there's a fascinating interview with Bolger as one of a series of interviews with five former NZ Prime Ministers including Helen Clark (I think it's on stuff.co.nz) but was sacked and has supported both National and Labour Governments as leader of NZ First.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Sun rises in the East, dog bites postman, tomorrow is Friday.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/905762610062163968
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    Interesting that they are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit.
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    Interesting that they are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit.
    That leapt out at me too. The Government looks to be in a real bind on that.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nearly all Tory MPs now agree Theresa May should stay on as Prime Minister. She must get the party through Brexit, they say. A leadership contest now would risk splitting the party over the European issue. One senior Tory who was agitating to depose May back in July has told me that he has now decided it would be best if she stays until 2019.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/theresa-mays-exit-strategy/

    Yes. She either needed be deposed of immediately after the election or backed through to the conclusion of Brexit talks, though such backing has to remain conditional on her not abusing it.
    Theresa is in it for the long term. She has no intention of relinquishing power. To cement her authority she needs to start altering the Tory mindset - make her leadership like Brexit in that any criticism of it is tantamount to treason. (This has already started and is looking to be effective.)
    It hasn't started and it can't be effective because she will forever have the shadow of the 2017 election hanging over her. In any case, if the Tory Party could dump Thatcher - for whom there was immense reverence - it can certainly dump May. I agree that she seems to be in it for the long term but I really don't see how she achieves that. The politics and economics of Brexit will not help.
    What would happen to Theresa is serious military conflict broke out with North Korea?

    Do you think she could transform into a war leader? Or would a serious nuclear conflict just highlight all her inadequacies?
    If the US is destroyed she becomes the leader of the free world, if Japan and China are also destroyed the UK and Germany become the world's biggest economies followed by India and France
    A silver lining, then?
    If you are attracted by the idea of May as leader of the free world
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Yes Peters is again powerbrokers it seems.

    His career is extraordinary and far more successful than, for example, Nigel Farage. To be fair, NZ First is not UKIP - it's what UKIP could have been or become.

    Peters is a social conservative and his views on Asian immigration into NZ are well known. He is a small-State supporter of tax cuts but anti-big business or rather opposed to an economic policy overtly favourable to big business. He has successfully cultivated support among the elderly and he stormed home in Northland in a by-election in 2015.

    He was once a Cabinet Minister in Jim Bolger's Government - as an aside, there's a fascinating interview with Bolger as one of a series of interviews with five former NZ Prime Ministers including Helen Clark (I think it's on stuff.co.nz) but was sacked and has supported both National and Labour Governments as leader of NZ First.
    Economically centrist but anti immigration is his platform yes
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    HYUFD said:

    Yet not trade deals with the US, China, Russia, India or Nigeria or Australia as the EU does not have any with those nations
    What's this then? Scotch mist?

    Agreement on Trade and Economic Cooperation between the European Economic Community and the People's Republic of China
    A very long way from an FTA.
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    Interesting that they are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit.
    That leapt out at me too. The Government looks to be in a real bind on that.
    Do you mean a real bind in terms of the parliamentary arithmetic?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533

    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    Interesting that they are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit.
    That leapt out at me too. The Government looks to be in a real bind on that.
    Do you mean a real bind in terms of the parliamentary arithmetic?
    Can they not simply propose an amendment which sensibly limits the powers (some versions have already been suggested) ?

    This would not appear to be either a party political or Brexiteer/Remainer issue if handled sensibly... ah, I think I've identified the problem.
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/905762610062163968

    How times change. I remember during the referendum campaign when 'the Norway Option' was continuously bandied about as being the ultimate 'cake and eat it' solution. Now the phrase is spat from the Leavers' lips like poison. Why the shift?
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    Interesting that they are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit.
    That leapt out at me too. The Government looks to be in a real bind on that.
    Do you mean a real bind in terms of the parliamentary arithmetic?
    I think we're headed for a repeat of Maastricht.

    Who can forget the hardcore anti EU Tory MPs voting to support the Social Chapter amendment to try and derail the whole bill.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Juncker attacking Davis personally suggests his side's argument is weak.

    The EU's tactics have been pretty low so far - desperate even.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited September 2017

    I think we're headed for a repeat of Maastricht.

    Who can forget the hardcore anti EU Tory MPs voting to support the Social Chapter amendment to try and derail the whole bill.

    It's much more dangerous than the Maastricht time, though, with the Article 50 clock ticking, the negotiations incredibly complicated, a minority government, and with the Labour Party taken over by an extreme cabal of nutjobs.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,675

    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    Interesting that they are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit.
    That leapt out at me too. The Government looks to be in a real bind on that.
    Do you mean a real bind in terms of the parliamentary arithmetic?
    There is a distinct lack of trust on the part of the few remainers and the nuttier fringe of the Leavers. Add them together and there is no majority for the bill. With Labour opportunistically opposing a bill which implements a decision that they are committed to respecting a defeat is an increasing possibility. The government is going to have to find a compromise of oversight that ideally both wings can live with.
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    TGOHF said:

    Juncker attacking Davis personally suggests his side's argument is weak.

    The EU's tactics have been pretty low so far - desperate even.

    Juncker is a peripheral, irrelevant figure in the Brexit negotiations. But if he did not exist, Europhobes would have to invent him. He is the gift that keeps on giving.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,027
    edited September 2017

    I think we're headed for a repeat of Maastricht.

    Who can forget the hardcore anti EU Tory MPs voting to support the Social Chapter amendment to try and derail the whole bill.

    It's much more dangerous than the Maastricht time, though, with the Article 50 clock ticking, the negotiations incredibly complicated, a minority government, and with the Labour Party taken over by an extreme cabal of nutjobs.
    The hard right of the Tory party once again don't care if we get a Labour PM, they care more about their EU obsession.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,675

    TGOHF said:

    Juncker attacking Davis personally suggests his side's argument is weak.

    The EU's tactics have been pretty low so far - desperate even.

    Juncker is a peripheral, irrelevant figure in the Brexit negotiations. But if he did not exist, Europhobes would have to invent him. He is the gift that keeps on giving.

    True. If the Europhobes were to try and create an absurd caricature of a self important, bumbling Euro Bureaucrat they would hesitate to come up with something so extreme on the basis that it would not be credible.
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    Interesting that they are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit.
    That leapt out at me too. The Government looks to be in a real bind on that.
    Do you mean a real bind in terms of the parliamentary arithmetic?
    Yes. Both Houses, as it happens. Everyone keeps forgetting about the House of Lords, apart from Mike.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,675

    I think we're headed for a repeat of Maastricht.

    Who can forget the hardcore anti EU Tory MPs voting to support the Social Chapter amendment to try and derail the whole bill.

    It's much more dangerous than the Maastricht time, though, with the Article 50 clock ticking, the negotiations incredibly complicated, a minority government, and with the Labour Party taken over by an extreme cabal of nutjobs.
    The hard right of the Tory party once again don't care if we get a Labour MP, they care more about their EU obsession.
    Come on TSE, do you think Parliament should be reviewing 7,000+ pieces of legislation individually? The argument against these clauses is so absurd and hypocritical that there has to be a suspicion that Gina Miller had a hand in it.
  • Options

    I think we're headed for a repeat of Maastricht.

    Who can forget the hardcore anti EU Tory MPs voting to support the Social Chapter amendment to try and derail the whole bill.

    It's much more dangerous than the Maastricht time, though, with the Article 50 clock ticking, the negotiations incredibly complicated, a minority government, and with the Labour Party taken over by an extreme cabal of nutjobs.
    The hard right of the Tory party once again don't care if we get a Labour MP, they care more about their EU obsession.

    Sounds familiar. The centre ground in UK politics now has tumbleweed blowing through it as both main parties veer to their extremes.

  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    stodge said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    LOL! As you come south off Waterloo Bridge and down towards the IMAX, there is a guy every evening trying to give away the Evening Standard. I've never seen anyone take one.
    LOL x 2

    You are saying it is a little-read rag?
    Indeed. The Standard is available all over London and the SE and you can barely turn a corner without finding a seller or a container. They arrive at Surbiton at 4.30 and are snapped up both by those coming back from town and those heading off to London.

    As to whether the Standard's own claims for copies distributed are valid, it's impossible to say as a single copy could be read by a number of people.

    To imply it's not well read is nonsense in the extreme - whether it has any influence is another question.

    You also get it in Sainsburys if not in other superstores.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,675

    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Scoop - dozens of Tory MPs from the Brexit-supporting European Research Group to launch major push to stop government from softening Brexit.

    Interesting that they are afraid of Henry VIII powers for fear of them being used to soften Brexit.
    That leapt out at me too. The Government looks to be in a real bind on that.
    Do you mean a real bind in terms of the parliamentary arithmetic?
    Yes. Both Houses, as it happens. Everyone keeps forgetting about the House of Lords, apart from Mike.
    Having one extended session lasting the best part of 2 years and disabling the Parliament Act may prove to be yet another May mistake.
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    DavidL said:

    I think we're headed for a repeat of Maastricht.

    Who can forget the hardcore anti EU Tory MPs voting to support the Social Chapter amendment to try and derail the whole bill.

    It's much more dangerous than the Maastricht time, though, with the Article 50 clock ticking, the negotiations incredibly complicated, a minority government, and with the Labour Party taken over by an extreme cabal of nutjobs.
    The hard right of the Tory party once again don't care if we get a Labour MP, they care more about their EU obsession.
    Come on TSE, do you think Parliament should be reviewing 7,000+ pieces of legislation individually? The argument against these clauses is so absurd and hypocritical that there has to be a suspicion that Gina Miller had a hand in it.
    I thought the whole purpose of the referendum was to ensure Parliament was sovereign ?

    Why don't you want Parliament to be sovereign and prefer the power grab by the executive?

    I once had to review 3,000 registers of title in a week, our MPs should be able to review 7,000 pieces of legislation in a few weeks.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2017

    I think we're headed for a repeat of Maastricht.

    Who can forget the hardcore anti EU Tory MPs voting to support the Social Chapter amendment to try and derail the whole bill.

    It's much more dangerous than the Maastricht time, though, with the Article 50 clock ticking, the negotiations incredibly complicated, a minority government, and with the Labour Party taken over by an extreme cabal of nutjobs.
    The hard right of the Tory party once again don't care if we get a Labour MP, they care more about their EU obsession.

    Sounds familiar. The centre ground in UK politics now has tumbleweed blowing through it as both main parties veer to their extremes.

    Perhaps it's time to reassess the vacuum theory of party politics?

    This might be the new normal. The voters want radical. They want change.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533

    TGOHF said:

    Juncker attacking Davis personally suggests his side's argument is weak.

    The EU's tactics have been pretty low so far - desperate even.

    Juncker is a peripheral, irrelevant figure in the Brexit negotiations. But if he did not exist, Europhobes would have to invent him. He is the gift that keeps on giving.

    Except that the reported comments were in the minutes of a meeting between him and Barnier, who is not exactly peripheral or irrelevant.

    Meanwhile, the EU appears to have a fresh set of demands to be met before they will consider talking about a post Brexit deal:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/britain-must-solve-problem-of-irish-border-post-brexit-say-leaked-eu-papers

    A deal is clearly in the best interests of both parties (though the proportional cost of no deal is probably around three or four times greater to us).
    There will, however, come a point at which the political realities make a WTO hard Brexit seem inevitable, irrespective of any simple cost/benefit analysis. The EU seem to be flirting with that possibility.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    Yes. Along with Adams - creator of the most perspicacious and beautifully drawn cartoons around at the moment - Osborne's deft analyses are providing a crucial counterweight to the government's creeping authoritarianism and arrogance. Witty and engaging yet insightful and robust, Osborne personifies the finest elements of the British psyche.
    Which is odder out of butthurt-crazed Remainers licking the boots* of the man who co-podiums with Nigel Farage when it comes to making brexit happen, and a soi-disant tory cheering on another tory in his attempt to destroy a tory government because the Prime Minister disrespected him innit, plus serve her right for being lower middle class and female.

    *Other metaphors are available.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533
    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    Yes. Along with Adams - creator of the most perspicacious and beautifully drawn cartoons around at the moment - Osborne's deft analyses are providing a crucial counterweight to the government's creeping authoritarianism and arrogance. Witty and engaging yet insightful and robust, Osborne personifies the finest elements of the British psyche.
    Which is odder out of butthurt-crazed Remainers licking the boots* of the man who co-podiums with Nigel Farage when it comes to making brexit happen, and a soi-disant tory cheering on another tory in his attempt to destroy a tory government because the Prime Minister disrespected him innit, plus serve her right for being lower middle class and female....
    "Which is odder" ?
    Probably your comment.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Nigelb said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    George and his newspaper mentioned in the House. He's providing de facto opposition to the mad Brexiters. And great advertising for his paper.

    Yes. Along with Adams - creator of the most perspicacious and beautifully drawn cartoons around at the moment - Osborne's deft analyses are providing a crucial counterweight to the government's creeping authoritarianism and arrogance. Witty and engaging yet insightful and robust, Osborne personifies the finest elements of the British psyche.
    Which is odder out of butthurt-crazed Remainers licking the boots* of the man who co-podiums with Nigel Farage when it comes to making brexit happen, and a soi-disant tory cheering on another tory in his attempt to destroy a tory government because the Prime Minister disrespected him innit, plus serve her right for being lower middle class and female....
    "Which is odder" ?
    Probably your comment.
    That would make it a choice of three, so "oddest", not odder.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,675

    DavidL said:

    I think we're headed for a repeat of Maastricht.

    Who can forget the hardcore anti EU Tory MPs voting to support the Social Chapter amendment to try and derail the whole bill.

    It's much more dangerous than the Maastricht time, though, with the Article 50 clock ticking, the negotiations incredibly complicated, a minority government, and with the Labour Party taken over by an extreme cabal of nutjobs.
    The hard right of the Tory party once again don't care if we get a Labour MP, they care more about their EU obsession.
    Come on TSE, do you think Parliament should be reviewing 7,000+ pieces of legislation individually? The argument against these clauses is so absurd and hypocritical that there has to be a suspicion that Gina Miller had a hand in it.
    I thought the whole purpose of the referendum was to ensure Parliament was sovereign ?

    Why don't you want Parliament to be sovereign and prefer the power grab by the executive?

    I once had to review 3,000 registers of title in a week, our MPs should be able to review 7,000 pieces of legislation in a few weeks.
    Parliament will be sovereign to the extent that all of this legislation will be up for grabs and open to repeal or reform, something that has not been possible with permission from the EU up to now of course. The scope of clause 9 as set out on here was too wide. The powers should be for limited purposes such as nominating a UK replacement for any EU regulatory body, clarifying who the right of appeal is to, more contentiously to determine who will have the right to review the regulations in the absence of the EU, that sort of thing. A list should not be beyond the wit of the draughtsman to draw up.

    As for checking 3,000 registers, I can only presume that this did not go beyond checking the last registered proprietor.

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    @estwebber: Ken Clarke says he accepts "we are going to leave the EU" and it's "idle" to pretend otherwise - question is how we do so‬
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