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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Aside from the EU how REMAIN and LEAVE voters differ on other

SystemSystem Posts: 12,259
edited September 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Aside from the EU how REMAIN and LEAVE voters differ on other issues

The full list from YouGov Joe Twyman can be found here.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,717

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
  • malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838

    malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
    Obvs because UK 'independence' (which is a false comparison because we already are independent) is really English independence in which Wales, Scotland and NI are being dragged along with little say in how it happens and in part against their wishes.

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
    Obvs because UK 'independence' (which is a false comparison because we already are independent) is really English independence in which Wales, Scotland and NI are being dragged along with little say in how it happens and in part against their wishes.

    Wales voted to leave.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited September 2017
    It's like Blade Runner. You just don't know when you're walking past one of these freaks
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    welshowl said:

    malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
    Obvs because UK 'independence' (which is a false comparison because we already are independent) is really English independence in which Wales, Scotland and NI are being dragged along with little say in how it happens and in part against their wishes.

    Wales voted to leave.
    What part of 'in part' don't you get?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    Some of these findings are definitely dispiriting.

    malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
    Obvs because UK 'independence' (which is a false comparison because we already are independent) is really English independence in which Wales, Scotland and NI are being dragged along with little say in how it happens and in part against their wishes.

    As noted, Wales voted Leave. The idea that this is purely an English thing is a persistent delusion to make some feel better and I don't see how adding 'in part' makes a difference - parts of England are also being dragged along with little say in how it happens, that doesn't make the claim it is really English independence less silly, given Wales did vote Leave. And I say that as someone with significant Bregret.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
    Obvs because UK 'independence' (which is a false comparison because we already are independent) is really English independence in which Wales, Scotland and NI are being dragged along with little say in how it happens and in part against their wishes.

    Wales voted to leave.
    What part of 'in part' don't you get?
    Fair enough! I misread. Apols.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
    Obvs because UK 'independence' (which is a false comparison because we already are independent) is really English independence in which Wales, Scotland and NI are being dragged along with little say in how it happens and in part against their wishes.

    Your argument is rather weak, in that Wales voted with England for Leave, whereas the bulk of Scotland voted for NO (only 4 councils voting YES). So if Scotland were to gain independence on the current vote, to paraphrase you, all the other councils would be dragged along against their wishes.

    Any argument that holds good for Scottish independence holds good for Leave. And any argument against Leave based on geographic variability of the vote would hold equally well for those parts of Scotland that did not join an independence vote.

    I am with Richard on this one. As and when Scotland votes independence, the rUK should let them go with good grace and best wishes and, unlike our European friends, should seek to ensure a win-win outcome.
  • Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Sounds like you've had a lucky escape.

    Don't lose heart and keep looking - finding the right job often happens by accident.
  • malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
    Obvs because UK 'independence' (which is a false comparison because we already are independent) is really English independence in which Wales, Scotland and NI are being dragged along with little say in how it happens and in part against their wishes.

    Wrong in every important point.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Don't worry about it. I normally knew within 30 seconds whether I wanted someone to work for me or not. It is a case of whether you will fit into the team. There will be a job for you, except you might not realise it at the time.
  • MTimT said:

    I am with Richard on this one. As and when Scotland votes independence, the rUK should let them go with good grace and best wishes and, unlike our European friends, should seek to ensure a win-win outcome.

    They are fundamentally different processes. Independence for Scotland involves a transfer of sovereignty. Brexit is the abrogation of a system of treaties entered into by a sovereign state.
  • MTimT said:

    malcolmg said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
    I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
    Obvs because UK 'independence' (which is a false comparison because we already are independent) is really English independence in which Wales, Scotland and NI are being dragged along with little say in how it happens and in part against their wishes.

    Your argument is rather weak, in that Wales voted with England for Leave, whereas the bulk of Scotland voted for NO (only 4 councils voting YES). So if Scotland were to gain independence on the current vote, to paraphrase you, all the other councils would be dragged along against their wishes.

    Any argument that holds good for Scottish independence holds good for Leave. And any argument against Leave based on geographic variability of the vote would hold equally well for those parts of Scotland that did not join an independence vote.

    I am with Richard on this one. As and when Scotland votes independence, the rUK should let them go with good grace and best wishes and, unlike our European friends, should seek to ensure a win-win outcome.
    Yep. As and when Scotland becomes independent we should view that as a positive move and do everything we can to ensure it is a success. It is not only the morally right and adult thing to do but, just as importantly, it is the practical sensible thing to do to ensure a close and mutually prosperous relationship with our news neighbours.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Sounds like you've had a lucky escape.

    Don't lose heart and keep looking - finding the right job often happens by accident.
    Thanks. It doesn't strike me as a lucky escape though, in all important respects this did seem like the right job.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Sorry to hear that.

    It sounds like an excuse because they preferred the other candidate. But it's something you can fix in another area (setting up something g in your spare time perhaps?)
  • Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    There are many good employers who would see your willingness to stand on your own two feet and take whatever work you can until you find your vocation as a very positive thing. Keep at it. You sound like the sort of person any sensible employer would be grateful to have on their payroll.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    MTimT said:

    I am with Richard on this one. As and when Scotland votes independence, the rUK should let them go with good grace and best wishes and, unlike our European friends, should seek to ensure a win-win outcome.

    They are fundamentally different processes. Independence for Scotland involves a transfer of sovereignty. Brexit is the abrogation of a system of treaties entered into by a sovereign state.
    I bet you're great at Twister.

    Scottish independence: good
    Irish independence: good
    British independence: bad

    The poor old Welsh never seem to get a look in.
  • MTimT said:

    I am with Richard on this one. As and when Scotland votes independence, the rUK should let them go with good grace and best wishes and, unlike our European friends, should seek to ensure a win-win outcome.

    They are fundamentally different processes. Independence for Scotland involves a transfer of sovereignty. Brexit is the abrogation of a system of treaties entered into by a sovereign state.
    Wrong. Both involve the return of sovereignty from an artificial entity to the nation state.

    You know, the thing you always claim to be opposed to.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    OchEye said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Don't worry about it. I normally knew within 30 seconds whether I wanted someone to work for me or not. It is a case of whether you will fit into the team. There will be a job for you, except you might not realise it at the time.
    If culture/fit was the issue, you'd think I wouldn't have made it to the second interview. It seems more likely that the reason they gave is the real one, and other graduate employers may see it the same way (and in the case of others who've rejected me, haven't been honest enough to say it).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Actually the questions are interesting. Leave voters don't look beyond the headlines.

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2017
    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Not intractable. But, rather than being bitter (and I am not accusing you of this) at the feedback, it is worth using it as a spur to some serious self-examination. Is there any truth to it? If not, what in your behaviour may have left that impression? If nothing, ask some colleagues who know your work and work methods well if they agree. If still nothing, no point crying over spilt milk, and at least the self-appraisal validated by colleagues will probably have boosted your confidence. And it should give you ammunition to rebut, or preempt, leaving such an impression in the future.

    I would highly recommend The Employee Engagement Mindset (The Six Drivers for Tapping into the Hidden Potential of Everyone in Your Company), by Tim Clark et al. The essence of the book is that, in an environment of constant change, maintaining one's skills, work knowledge and motivation is a personal responsibility. The organization cannot be relied upon to do that for you, and if you rely on it to, you not only give up control of your life but run the risk of becoming irrelevant in the workplace. It then gives practical advice on how to develop one's own motivation and drive through a sense of personal purpose.

    Whatever, good luck in pushing through this setback. Never lose - either win, or learn (or both).
  • Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    If you were only rejected narrowly, you will find the right job for you soon enough. Stay in touch with this potential employer. If they think you might lack drive, you can prove them wrong by pursuing them tenaciously. They might have other vacancies soon enough.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Don't give up and don't let it get you down.

    One piece of advice I was given by a family member when I started work was "don't leave a job until you've been doing it for at least two years." His view is that if someone starts a job and then leaves quite quickly, it probably means they couldn't stick it out.

    Now obviously it depends what someone is doing, but if I was an employer I would be looking to see what a candidate had done in their time in their current job. How have they developed? What improvements have they made to their job? Have they had to go outside their comfort zone? Those sorts of things.

    If an employer thinks that staying somewhere for 2.5 years shows "a lack of drive", they probably aren't worth working for.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Roger said:

    Actually the questions are interesting. Leave voters don't look beyond the headlines.

    I'm too busy dreaming of electric sheep.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    Charles said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Sorry to hear that.

    It sounds like an excuse because they preferred the other candidate. But it's something you can fix in another area (setting up something g in your spare time perhaps?)
    Thanks, and I think you have a point. You'd think being one of the youngest Vote Leave constituency co-ordinators in the country shows a bit of drive, but perhaps graduate employers aren't of the right demographic to look on it too kindly.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    If you were only rejected narrowly, you will find the right job for you soon enough. Stay in touch with this potential employer. If they think you might lack drive, you can prove them wrong by pursuing them tenaciously. They might have other vacancies soon enough.
    Thanks Alastair - I was thinking it's worth a follow-up email at the very least.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    On topic: It would be interesting to see the cross tabs of the different questions. Who are more likely to believe that Diana was assassinated? Those who think Russian intel services helped Trump to win the presidency or those who don't?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    I am with Richard on this one. As and when Scotland votes independence, the rUK should let them go with good grace and best wishes and, unlike our European friends, should seek to ensure a win-win outcome.

    They are fundamentally different processes. Independence for Scotland involves a transfer of sovereignty. Brexit is the abrogation of a system of treaties entered into by a sovereign state.
    Both are abrogations of treaties under which sovereignty was partially pooled (albeit to differing extents) and which will, as a result of abrogation, entail the return of sovereignty over many issues.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Essexit said:

    OchEye said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Don't worry about it. I normally knew within 30 seconds whether I wanted someone to work for me or not. It is a case of whether you will fit into the team. There will be a job for you, except you might not realise it at the time.
    If culture/fit was the issue, you'd think I wouldn't have made it to the second interview. It seems more likely that the reason they gave is the real one, and other graduate employers may see it the same way (and in the case of others who've rejected me, haven't been honest enough to say it).
    The first interview sifts out the dross from the gold, the second picks out the diamonds. Just remember, employers don't want exceptional candidates, they want someone who will fit into the team. When you start work, you will be worthless to them but they will have seen some potential. I suspect that (from personal experience) that they thought you were more experienced and that the amount of work to mould you into their ways would be too expensive.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Essexit said:

    OchEye said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Don't worry about it. I normally knew within 30 seconds whether I wanted someone to work for me or not. It is a case of whether you will fit into the team. There will be a job for you, except you might not realise it at the time.
    If culture/fit was the issue, you'd think I wouldn't have made it to the second interview. It seems more likely that the reason they gave is the real one, and other graduate employers may see it the same way (and in the case of others who've rejected me, haven't been honest enough to say it).
    I was turned down (or rather, they never called me back, even to let me know they were not proceeding with my application) after a second interview because of lack of cultural fit. I think it is not uncommon for newer corporations to use the first interview to cull based on technical skills and know how, and the second and subsequent rounds to identify team fit.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,750
    We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.

    Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Essexit said:

    Charles said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Sorry to hear that.

    It sounds like an excuse because they preferred the other candidate. But it's something you can fix in another area (setting up something g in your spare time perhaps?)
    Thanks, and I think you have a point. You'd think being one of the youngest Vote Leave constituency co-ordinators in the country shows a bit of drive, but perhaps graduate employers aren't of the right demographic to look on it too kindly.
    Yes it does show drive, but also yes it's a tricky thing to admit to.

    Good luck, and thank you for yet further evidence supporting my thesis that anyone on here who actually *did* anything about EUref (beyond wibbling on social meejah and casting their own vote), did it for Leave.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,750
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Essexit said:

    Charles said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Sorry to hear that.

    It sounds like an excuse because they preferred the other candidate. But it's something you can fix in another area (setting up something g in your spare time perhaps?)
    Thanks, and I think you have a point. You'd think being one of the youngest Vote Leave constituency co-ordinators in the country shows a bit of drive, but perhaps graduate employers aren't of the right demographic to look on it too kindly.
    Yes it does show drive, but also yes it's a tricky thing to admit to.

    Good luck, and thank you for yet further evidence supporting my thesis that anyone on here who actually *did* anything about EUref (beyond wibbling on social meejah and casting their own vote), did it for Leave.
    I was out on a street stall for Remain handing out leaflets and engaging in conversations on the case for Remain.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company that regards 2.5 years in your first job as showing a lack of drive. They would presumably expect you to leave them after a year or so, and perhaps sack you if you didn't! I appreciate it won't feel like that, but I do think they sound dubious people to work for.

    IMHO job-hunting has a significant element of sheer luck. I've had applications where I was sure I was perfect and didn't even make the shortlist, and others where I was offered a job after thinking I had no real chance (including when going for PPC for Broxtowe).It depends so much on who happens to be on the panel and who else is applying. I was recently headhunted by Amnesty to act as an unpaid adviser, asked to go through the motions of a panel interview, and then rejected because a stronger candidate has turned up (which is fine, they should take whoever's best for it).

    Like others here I'm convinced you'll have better fortune in another one before long.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,634
    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Blimey, lord only knows what they'd say if I applied for a job there having been in my current job around a decade :p.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Barnesian said:

    We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.

    Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.

    But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?

    As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,401
    I am a Scot who supports both the United Kingdom and the European Union for the same reason. I am an internationalist, or if you like, an inter-nationalist.

    You can consistently support one but not the other however.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Barnesian said:

    We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.

    Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.

    But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?

    As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
    edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,401

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Cursed:

    There is posturing on both sides. The question is whether things are moving forward. I agree with Prof Portes in Kieran's podcast yesterday. Things aren't going badly but they are not moving much at all, and that could be bad. I agree with you that the UK could have a degree of influence over the EU, compared with Switzerland and Norway who have no influence at all. This would be because of our ability to throw serious amounts of money at the EU and deploy our diplomatic clout to support EU initiatives. We haven't yet reconciled ourselves to doing so. There is nothing stopping David Davis making a proposal on money that is tied to other Article 50 outcomes. His fear of the Brexit press and hardline party members is preventing him talking money, rather than any inflexibility from Barnier about discussing trade
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Barnesian said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Essexit said:

    Charles said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Sorry to hear that.

    It sounds like an excuse because they preferred the other candidate. But it's something you can fix in another area (setting up something g in your spare time perhaps?)
    Thanks, and I think you have a point. You'd think being one of the youngest Vote Leave constituency co-ordinators in the country shows a bit of drive, but perhaps graduate employers aren't of the right demographic to look on it too kindly.
    Yes it does show drive, but also yes it's a tricky thing to admit to.

    Good luck, and thank you for yet further evidence supporting my thesis that anyone on here who actually *did* anything about EUref (beyond wibbling on social meejah and casting their own vote), did it for Leave.
    I was out on a street stall for Remain handing out leaflets and engaging in conversations on the case for Remain.
    OK you are my first counter-example, then. Thanks for that.
  • Essexit said:

    Charles said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Sorry to hear that.

    It sounds like an excuse because they preferred the other candidate. But it's something you can fix in another area (setting up something g in your spare time perhaps?)
    Thanks, and I think you have a point. You'd think being one of the youngest Vote Leave constituency co-ordinators in the country shows a bit of drive, but perhaps graduate employers aren't of the right demographic to look on it too kindly.
    I would personally avoid mentioning the constituency coordinator role. However, I have hired people who have had political work experience. If you have the skills I require, I do not care if you voted leave or remain, or Labour or Tory. Sadly, I imagine many would take issue.

    Also, the employer stating that you lacked drive. It would depend entirely on what you were doing for those 2.5 years. If you were in a role which enabled you to be constantly developing that would be fine. If it was say, a supermarket checkout with limited scope for development, I would perhaps agree with them.

    I never went down the grad scheme route and things worked out just fine for me. You should concentrate on leveraging your experience and talking up your transferable skills. I am constantly looking to develop myself, whether it be soft skills or obtaining qualifications relevant to the industry I work in.
  • FF43 said:

    This would be because of our ability to throw serious amounts of money at the EU and deploy our diplomatic clout to support EU initiatives. We haven't yet reconciled ourselves to doing so.

    If we were in that mindset we probably wouldn't have had a Brexit to begin with. For example, if UK Prime Ministers had consistently gone to Washington and talked about the special relationship, not between the US and UK, but between the US and Europe, we would have felt like and been seen to be more of a leader than we were.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Barnesian said:

    We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.

    Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.

    But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?

    As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
    Yes, I don't think confirmation bias and gullibility are the same thing. To me, gullibility relates to lack of critical capacity, rather than choosing (albeit subconsciously) not to apply that capacity.

    PS The questions are also click bait rather than serious. For example, whether or not I believe the Russians were active in seeking to influence the outcome of the US (or other) election is a far different question than did they affect the outcome (implied by 'helped to elect') or did so with Trump's complicity (also implied by that wording). My answers to those three different questions would be Yes, No, Probably.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,484
    FPT (and in response to @Winstanley)


    "We're not going to sort out the rights and wrongs of the intervention in Kosovo here, but surely we should be past the propagandistic nonsense of 'if you opposed x war, you're on the the side of the government of x'. It's obviously a far more complicated topic (see: https://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/Natbm200-01.htm)

    I'm interested in your specific claim: 'Corbyn himself has denied that genocide - of the Muslims of Kosovo - ever happened.' You now say 'I have not said that Corbyn has denied the Srebenica massacre', but that's what that sounds like to me. If not what else are you referring to?"


    Srebenica is in Bosnia. The slaughter of the men hiding there by Mladic was quite separate to the attacks on Albanian Muslims in Kosovo. Two different events.

    I did read the motion. It refers to the Pilger article and its reference to "a 'genocide' that never really existed in Kosovo;" and expresses congratulations for this article in the paragraph preceding the one you quoted.

    Whether what was done to the Albanians was genocide as a matter of law or crimes against humanity or bog standard barbarism, it is indisputable that the Serbians drove Kosovan Albanians from their home, attacked and killed them and would have continued doing so were it not for the West's intervention. Corbyn has been specifically asked which interventions post-WW2 he supported and this one was not on the list.

    And this year he chooses to go to dinner with someone who denies what the Serbs did in another infamous massacre. Maybe he didn't know who that person was. I find this a curious explanation. For someone who takes such an interest in unpopular groups and causes - out of principle - we are told, he is conveniently incurious when it comes to people whose views would revolt any decent human being. It's a very convenient blind eye he has.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    FF43 said:

    I am a Scot who supports both the United Kingdom and the European Union for the same reason. I am an internationalist, or if you like, an inter-nationalist.

    You can consistently support one but not the other however.

    @fatshez: I don't think I thought of myself as particularly British before the Scot nats asked me to "pick a side" in 2014. Similarly pre 2016 I'd

    @fatshez: have identified as more British or Scottish than European. Again, having been asked to pick by Brit nats, I've picked European.
  • tlg86 said:

    On topic: It would be interesting to see the cross tabs of the different questions. Who are more likely to believe that Diana was assassinated? Those who think Russian intel services helped Trump to win the presidency or those who don't?

    It is interesting that apparently one conspiracy theory is supposed to be acceptable whilst another is considered lunatic fringe.

    Personally I think all three contentions are wrong. Of course there are degrees of wrong and whilst the first two are amusing the vaccine one is beyond the pale.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,750
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Barnesian said:

    We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.

    Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.

    But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?

    As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
    edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
    DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.

    But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Barnesian - but the piece of paper that is education - without the big state the paper is worthless. The more reliant you are on the piece of paper the more in favour you will be of the big state and thereby the EU.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FF43 said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Cursed:

    There is posturing on both sides. The question is whether things are moving forward. I agree with Prof Portes in Kieran's podcast yesterday. Things aren't going badly but they are not moving much at all, and that could be bad. I agree with you that the UK could have a degree of influence over the EU, compared with Switzerland and Norway who have no influence at all. This would be because of our ability to throw serious amounts of money at the EU and deploy our diplomatic clout to support EU initiatives. We haven't yet reconciled ourselves to doing so. There is nothing stopping David Davis making a proposal on money that is tied to other Article 50 outcomes. His fear of the Brexit press and hardline party members is preventing him talking money, rather than any inflexibility from Barnier about discussing trade
    Not offering a figure at this stage could also be a tactical timing decision. If I were the negotiator, I would certainly not be offering it up yet, even had I already decided that it was something I were willing to offer.

    Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Pulpstar said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Blimey, lord only knows what they'd say if I applied for a job there having been in my current job around a decade :p.
    'strong and stable'?

    Only kidding
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,401
    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Perhaps this application has convinced you this is the kind of work you want to do, so you can focus on applying for similar opportunities and building up relevant experience and qualifications. I don't know your background obviously but I could see it as a positive experience to build on. Good luck.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    FF43 said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Cursed:

    There is posturing on both sides. The question is whether things are moving forward. I agree with Prof Portes in Kieran's podcast yesterday. Things aren't going badly but they are not moving much at all, and that could be bad. I agree with you that the UK could have a degree of influence over the EU, compared with Switzerland and Norway who have no influence at all. This would be because of our ability to throw serious amounts of money at the EU and deploy our diplomatic clout to support EU initiatives. We haven't yet reconciled ourselves to doing so. There is nothing stopping David Davis making a proposal on money that is tied to other Article 50 outcomes. His fear of the Brexit press and hardline party members is preventing him talking money, rather than any inflexibility from Barnier about discussing trade
    I'm not sure the EU has given an official figure.

    If I was DD I would not put any number forward until they have presented the number they believe is due, and detailed the constituent parts.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    FF43 said:

    This would be because of our ability to throw serious amounts of money at the EU and deploy our diplomatic clout to support EU initiatives. We haven't yet reconciled ourselves to doing so.

    If we were in that mindset we probably wouldn't have had a Brexit to begin with. For example, if UK Prime Ministers had consistently gone to Washington and talked about the special relationship, not between the US and UK, but between the US and Europe, we would have felt like and been seen to be more of a leader than we were.
    There is a lot of truth to that. I do not think the British public realized how much influence the UK had. Probably because our leaders were not seen as part of the central dynamo, a la Franco-German axis. However, behind the scenes, British officials did exert much influence in the formulation of directives etc... I think this is one of the things that the EU will miss post Brexit, along with the money.

    But if the UK missed a beat in that regard, Bonn/Berlin and Paris were even more culpable in not only not providing the optics for that to happen, but making every effort to show that France and Germany ran the show.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    Barnesian said:

    We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.

    Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.

    Gullible is the wrong word I think.
    Mistrustful of experts and more trusting of tabloids would be my clumsy way of putting it.
    Im reassured that for both groups only low numbers mistrust vaccines.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    tlg86 said:

    On topic: It would be interesting to see the cross tabs of the different questions. Who are more likely to believe that Diana was assassinated? Those who think Russian intel services helped Trump to win the presidency or those who don't?

    It is interesting that apparently one conspiracy theory is supposed to be acceptable whilst another is considered lunatic fringe.

    Personally I think all three contentions are wrong. Of course there are degrees of wrong and whilst the first two are amusing the vaccine one is beyond the pale.
    Interestingly, in the US at least, it is the lefties who tend to be anti-vaccine.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company that regards 2.5 years in your first job as showing a lack of drive. They would presumably expect you to leave them after a year or so, and perhaps sack you if you didn't! I appreciate it won't feel like that, but I do think they sound dubious people to work for.

    IMHO job-hunting has a significant element of sheer luck. I've had applications where I was sure I was perfect and didn't even make the shortlist, and others where I was offered a job after thinking I had no real chance (including when going for PPC for Broxtowe).It depends so much on who happens to be on the panel and who else is applying. I was recently headhunted by Amnesty to act as an unpaid adviser, asked to go through the motions of a panel interview, and then rejected because a stronger candidate has turned up (which is fine, they should take whoever's best for it).

    Like others here I'm convinced you'll have better fortune in another one before long.
    I think the issue isn't so much that I've spent 2.5 years in my first job, but that I've spent 2.5 years in it and it's not strictly a graduate job (technician within a Compliance-related department of a large insurance broker). That said I haven't just coasted at it - I've taken on projects, specialised, carved out a niche for myself - all of which I thought I put across yesterday, but I guess it's difficult to convey it all in a few minutes.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,401
    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    Curse of the new thread. FPT:

    I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.

    A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.

    As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards.
    Flag Quote · Off Topic

    Cursed:

    There is posturing on both sides. The question is whether things are moving forward. I agree with Prof Portes in Kieran's podcast yesterday. Things aren't going badly but they are not moving much at all, and that could be bad. I agree with you that the UK could have a degree of influence over the EU, compared with Switzerland and Norway who have no influence at all. This would be because of our ability to throw serious amounts of money at the EU and deploy our diplomatic clout to support EU initiatives. We haven't yet reconciled ourselves to doing so. There is nothing stopping David Davis making a proposal on money that is tied to other Article 50 outcomes. His fear of the Brexit press and hardline party members is preventing him talking money, rather than any inflexibility from Barnier about discussing trade
    Not offering a figure at this stage could also be a tactical timing decision. If I were the negotiator, I would certainly not be offering it up yet, even had I already decided that it was something I were willing to offer.

    Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.
    Good point. This is something I would pass onto an experienced negotiator. I suggest we would need to set some parameters. The expectation seems to be that the figure will be in the tens of billions of euros and there will be a quid pro quo of access to EU programmes. Also if we expect to buy influence the brief to the negotiator would be maximise the return rather than minimise the payment.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,029
    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company that regards 2.5 years in your first job as showing a lack of drive. They would presumably expect you to leave them after a year or so, and perhaps sack you if you didn't! I appreciate it won't feel like that, but I do think they sound dubious people to work for.

    IMHO job-hunting has a significant element of sheer luck. I've had applications where I was sure I was perfect and didn't even make the shortlist, and others where I was offered a job after thinking I had no real chance (including when going for PPC for Broxtowe).It depends so much on who happens to be on the panel and who else is applying. I was recently headhunted by Amnesty to act as an unpaid adviser, asked to go through the motions of a panel interview, and then rejected because a stronger candidate has turned up (which is fine, they should take whoever's best for it).

    Like others here I'm convinced you'll have better fortune in another one before long.
    I think the issue isn't so much that I've spent 2.5 years in my first job, but that I've spent 2.5 years in it and it's not strictly a graduate job (technician within a Compliance-related department of a large insurance broker). That said I haven't just coasted at it - I've taken on projects, specialised, carved out a niche for myself - all of which I thought I put across yesterday, but I guess it's difficult to convey it all in a few minutes.
    Spending more than 5 minutes in the wrong job, and spending less than life in an appropriate job will count against you.

    You know that 'taken on projects' is just saying that your previous job was a bit crap, and that you did what you could to make it less so.

    NPs experiences are not at all typical. Upper echelon socialism doesn't align with mere mortals.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    MTimT said:

    tlg86 said:

    On topic: It would be interesting to see the cross tabs of the different questions. Who are more likely to believe that Diana was assassinated? Those who think Russian intel services helped Trump to win the presidency or those who don't?

    It is interesting that apparently one conspiracy theory is supposed to be acceptable whilst another is considered lunatic fringe.

    Personally I think all three contentions are wrong. Of course there are degrees of wrong and whilst the first two are amusing the vaccine one is beyond the pale.
    Interestingly, in the US at least, it is the lefties who tend to be anti-vaccine.
    I think in the uk too many anti vac people are on the left. All a global pharma conspiracy etc etc


  • There is the basis for an agreement on the Brexit bill but it is too soon with the ritual the EU employ. I would expect progress to quicken over the rest of the year.

    Off topic but has there ever been a worse England team than the one playing Malta tonight - at least they are holding Malta to 0 - 0 after 35 minutes
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    MTimT said:


    Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.

    I think that's correct.

    A delicate question is whether we in Britain actually want the negotiations to succeed. Possible outcomes include:

    1. A successful deal that makes all sides feel British withdrawal is going to work out well
    2. A deal with a clear British "win" that extracts us with minimal cost and makes the EU feel humiliated
    3. A deal with a clear EU "win" that extracts us on very unfavourable terms and makes Britain regret leaving.
    4. No deal.

    In principle we should all want number 1. But it's possible for hardcore Remainers to feel that withdrawal is so awful that 3 is preferable, because it maximises the chance of repentance; conversely, it's possible for hardcore Leavers to want 2, giving a sense of tiumph to add to withdrawal. I don't think anyone really wants 4, but there are probably more secret 2s and 3s around than one might like to think, and that can't make the negotiations easier.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,090
    edited September 2017

    MTimT said:


    Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.

    I think that's correct.

    A delicate question is whether we in Britain actually want the negotiations to succeed. Possible outcomes include:

    1. A successful deal that makes all sides feel British withdrawal is going to work out well
    2. A deal with a clear British "win" that extracts us with minimal cost and makes the EU feel humiliated
    3. A deal with a clear EU "win" that extracts us on very unfavourable terms and makes Britain regret leaving.
    4. No deal.

    In principle we should all want number 1. But it's possible for hardcore Remainers to feel that withdrawal is so awful that 3 is preferable, because it maximises the chance of repentance; conversely, it's possible for hardcore Leavers to want 2, giving a sense of tiumph to add to withdrawal. I don't think anyone really wants 4, but there are probably more secret 2s and 3s around than one might like to think, and that can't make the negotiations easier.
    I would consider no 1 as the most desired solution but would put the 'well' at the end in brackets, at least in the short term
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company that regards 2.5 years in your first job as showing a lack of drive. They would presumably expect you to leave them after a year or so, and perhaps sack you if you didn't! I appreciate it won't feel like that, but I do think they sound dubious people to work for.

    IMHO job-hunting has a significant element of sheer luck. I've had applications where I was sure I was perfect and didn't even make the shortlist, and others where I was offered a job after thinking I had no real chance (including when going for PPC for Broxtowe).It depends so much on who happens to be on the panel and who else is applying. I was recently headhunted by Amnesty to act as an unpaid adviser, asked to go through the motions of a panel interview, and then rejected because a stronger candidate has turned up (which is fine, they should take whoever's best for it).

    Like others here I'm convinced you'll have better fortune in another one before long.
    I think the issue isn't so much that I've spent 2.5 years in my first job, but that I've spent 2.5 years in it and it's not strictly a graduate job (technician within a Compliance-related department of a large insurance broker). That said I haven't just coasted at it - I've taken on projects, specialised, carved out a niche for myself - all of which I thought I put across yesterday, but I guess it's difficult to convey it all in a few minutes.

    You know that 'taken on projects' is just saying that your previous job was a bit crap, and that you did what you could to make it less so.
    Strongly disagree. Taking on projects is part of molding your job description to something that motivates you. It is a key piece of evidence in demonstrating drive through engagement.

    No job is our dream job until we make it so. Even then, we put up with a load of dross because it is part of the overall attractive package. How many Olympic medallists or top musicians actually enjoy the grind of getting and keeping their skills? There may be some masochists, but generally people put up with the crap in order to experience the sublime.
  • rkrkrk said:

    MTimT said:

    tlg86 said:

    On topic: It would be interesting to see the cross tabs of the different questions. Who are more likely to believe that Diana was assassinated? Those who think Russian intel services helped Trump to win the presidency or those who don't?

    It is interesting that apparently one conspiracy theory is supposed to be acceptable whilst another is considered lunatic fringe.

    Personally I think all three contentions are wrong. Of course there are degrees of wrong and whilst the first two are amusing the vaccine one is beyond the pale.
    Interestingly, in the US at least, it is the lefties who tend to be anti-vaccine.
    I think in the uk too many anti vac people are on the left. All a global pharma conspiracy etc etc
    In view of today's EU ruling I think the 'anti-vac' people are the EU
  • England survive to half time against Malta at 0 - 0 !!!!!!
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    MTimT said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company that regards 2.5 years in your first job as showing a lack of drive. They would presumably expect you to leave them after a year or so, and perhaps sack you if you didn't! I appreciate it won't feel like that, but I do think they sound dubious people to work for.

    IMHO job-hunting has a significant element of sheer luck. I've had applications where I was sure I was perfect and didn't even make the shortlist, and others where I was offered a job after thinking I had no real chance (including when going for PPC for Broxtowe).It depends so much on who happens to be on the panel and who else is applying. I was recently headhunted by Amnesty to act as an unpaid adviser, asked to go through the motions of a panel interview, and then rejected because a stronger candidate has turned up (which is fine, they should take whoever's best for it).

    Like others here I'm convinced you'll have better fortune in another one before long.
    I think the issue isn't so much that I've spent 2.5 years in my first job, but that I've spent 2.5 years in it and it's not strictly a graduate job (technician within a Compliance-related department of a large insurance broker). That said I haven't just coasted at it - I've taken on projects, specialised, carved out a niche for myself - all of which I thought I put across yesterday, but I guess it's difficult to convey it all in a few minutes.

    You know that 'taken on projects' is just saying that your previous job was a bit crap, and that you did what you could to make it less so.
    Strongly disagree. Taking on projects is part of molding your job description to something that motivates you. It is a key piece of evidence in demonstrating drive through engagement.

    No job is our dream job until we make it so. Even then, we put up with a load of dross because it is part of the overall attractive package. How many Olympic medallists or top musicians actually enjoy the grind of getting and keeping their skills? There may be some masochists, but generally people put up with the crap in order to experience the sublime.
    You're both right. The job is a bit crap, but I'd argue going beyond the basic tasks, largely of my own volition, shows drive.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:


    Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.

    I think that's correct.

    A delicate question is whether we in Britain actually want the negotiations to succeed. Possible outcomes include:

    1. A successful deal that makes all sides feel British withdrawal is going to work out well
    2. A deal with a clear British "win" that extracts us with minimal cost and makes the EU feel humiliated
    3. A deal with a clear EU "win" that extracts us on very unfavourable terms and makes Britain regret leaving.
    4. No deal.

    In principle we should all want number 1. But it's possible for hardcore Remainers to feel that withdrawal is so awful that 3 is preferable, because it maximises the chance of repentance; conversely, it's possible for hardcore Leavers to want 2, giving a sense of tiumph to add to withdrawal. I don't think anyone really wants 4, but there are probably more secret 2s and 3s around than one might like to think, and that can't make the negotiations easier.

    Agreed 1 is the obvious preferred option.

    2 and 3 are equally stupid because they are premised on the idea that negotiations of this type are a one and done. They are not. They affect the future relationship and merely set the stage for the next round of 'negotiations' (be those entirely new issues or resuscitated old ones). A round 1 'victory' where the other party is humiliated can easily become Pyrrhic. We only need look to Versailles for that.

    For that reason, my second option would be 4, provided that it was a 'no deal' that did not poison the well too much and left the door open to a new round of negotiations based on mutual interests when the general negotiating atmosphere was more propitious.
  • I don't which is worse, england football team or itv's coverage of the england football team.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,401

    MTimT said:


    Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.

    I think that's correct.

    A delicate question is whether we in Britain actually want the negotiations to succeed. Possible outcomes include:

    1. A successful deal that makes all sides feel British withdrawal is going to work out well
    2. A deal with a clear British "win" that extracts us with minimal cost and makes the EU feel humiliated
    3. A deal with a clear EU "win" that extracts us on very unfavourable terms and makes Britain regret leaving.
    4. No deal.

    In principle we should all want number 1. But it's possible for hardcore Remainers to feel that withdrawal is so awful that 3 is preferable, because it maximises the chance of repentance; conversely, it's possible for hardcore Leavers to want 2, giving a sense of tiumph to add to withdrawal. I don't think anyone really wants 4, but there are probably more secret 2s and 3s around than one might like to think, and that can't make the negotiations easier.
    I see Brexit only succeeding on its terms if there is a deal with the EU that allows for a relatively smooth exit. The question for us therefore is how much are we prepared to pay? Logically a Leaver would want the exit to be a success and his answer might be, whatever it takes. Remainers who are more conscious of the downsides of Brexit might also be willing to pay the price to avoid disaster. There's theoretical agreement between the two UK factions. Of course you wouldn't go into a negotiation with the aim of paying more, but we don't have much time or leverage. It might just be the reality of our position.
  • I don't which is worse, england football team or itv's coverage of the england football team.

    BBC and ITV should give up football. Leave it to Sky or BT
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,090
    edited September 2017
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:


    Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.

    I think that's correct.

    A delicate question is whether we in Britain actually want the negotiations to succeed. Possible outcomes include:

    1. A successful deal that makes all sides feel British withdrawal is going to work out well
    2. A deal with a clear British "win" that extracts us with minimal cost and makes the EU feel humiliated
    3. A deal with a clear EU "win" that extracts us on very unfavourable terms and makes Britain regret leaving.
    4. No deal.

    In principle we should all want number 1. But it's possible for hardcore Remainers to feel that withdrawal is so awful that 3 is preferable, because it maximises the chance of repentance; conversely, it's possible for hardcore Leavers to want 2, giving a sense of tiumph to add to withdrawal. I don't think anyone really wants 4, but there are probably more secret 2s and 3s around than one might like to think, and that can't make the negotiations easier.
    I see Brexit only succeeding on its terms if there is a deal with the EU that allows for a relatively smooth exit. The question for us therefore is how much are we prepared to pay? Logically a Leaver would want the exit to be a success and his answer might be, whatever it takes. Remainers who are more conscious of the downsides of Brexit might also be willing to pay the price to avoid disaster. There's theoretical agreement between the two UK factions. Of course you wouldn't go into a negotiation with the aim of paying more, but we don't have much time or leverage. It might just be the reality of our position.
    Good points but the other factor is the public who do not want to pay much more than 10 billion according to the polls.

    My solution is a two year transition paying the 20 billion gross as now and a final payment of around 30 billion as good will but subject to a tariff free trade deal
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    rkrkrk said:



    I think in the uk too many anti vac people are on the left. All a global pharma conspiracy etc etc

    It's one of the things that separates old left from new left. The old left gives the state plenty of credit - if the Government says something ought to be done for our collective good, they're probably right and we should do it. In that, they resemble some of the conservative establishment: mainly they want a different establishment. The new left tend to view all authorities with suspicion, and think that if the Government wants something they've probably got some wicked motive. In that, they resemble some of the libertarian right.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Essexit said:



    You're both right. The job is a bit crap, but I'd argue going beyond the basic tasks, largely of my own volition, shows drive.

    But if you keep on taking on responsibility in areas you enjoy, and prove your value, that crap job may well morph into one that is not crap. If you don't, you can be sure it will remain crap.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Essexit said:

    MTimT said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company that regards 2.5 years in your first job as showing a lack of drive. They would presumably expect you to leave them after a year or so, and perhaps sack you if you didn't! I appreciate it won't feel like that, but I do think they sound dubious people to work for.


    Like others here I'm convinced you'll have better fortune in another one before long.
    I think the issue isn't so much that I've spent 2.5 years in my first job, but that I've spent 2.5 years in it and it's not strictly a graduate job (technician within a Compliance-related department of a large insurance broker). That said I haven't just coasted at it - I've taken on projects, specialised, carved out a niche for myself - all of which I thought I put across yesterday, but I guess it's difficult to convey it all in a few minutes.

    You know that 'taken on projects' is just saying that your previous job was a bit crap, and that you did what you could to make it less so.
    Strongly disagree. Taking on projects is part of molding your job description to something that motivates you. It is a key piece of evidence in demonstrating drive through engagement.

    No job is our dream job until we make it so. Even then, we put up with a load of dross because it is part of the overall attractive package. How many Olympic medallists or top musicians actually enjoy the grind of getting and keeping their skills? There may be some masochists, but generally people put up with the crap in order to experience the sublime.
    You're both right. The job is a bit crap, but I'd argue going beyond the basic tasks, largely of my own volition, shows drive.
    I'd agree with that.
    It sounds like a very unusual reason for rejection and it shouldn't put you off applying for other jobs.
    20 years in one job and you may be start to be in an intractable situation. 2.5 years? No way. Lots of jobs for less than one year would be more likely to set alarm bells ringing with most employers. You can't win.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    tlg86 said:

    On topic: It would be interesting to see the cross tabs of the different questions. Who are more likely to believe that Diana was assassinated? Those who think Russian intel services helped Trump to win the presidency or those who don't?

    It is interesting that apparently one conspiracy theory is supposed to be acceptable whilst another is considered lunatic fringe.

    Personally I think all three contentions are wrong. Of course there are degrees of wrong and whilst the first two are amusing the vaccine one is beyond the pale.
    The vaccine one may be "beyond the pale", but it might be true: the only thing which would disprove it would be a complete theory of what *does* cause autism. I would not be astounded to learn that there are scientists who think it might be true but that an increase in autism is a price worth paying for herd immunity, or that their careers will not survive any statement that the theory might be true. There are precedents for this: eminent scientists lost jobs for questioning the recommendation to stay out of the sun at all times (to avoid skin cancer) on the grounds, which are now accepted to be absolutely right, that the consequent vitamin D deficiency was killing people.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Swine flu vaccine does cause brain damage, there is a recognised connection with narcolepsy in young children.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited September 2017

    I don't which is worse, england football team or itv's coverage of the england football team.

    BBC and ITV should give up football. Leave it to Sky or BT
    BBC coverage is ok, in a steady competent but out of date / most of the talking heads are totally disconnected from the modern game kinda of way. Same with the cricket and golf.

    Itv is just unwatchable. Who thinks putting charisma bypass giggs with Ian wright and Paul ince is a good idea!

    Skys coverage of pretty much every sport is just massively superior to everybody else, with absolutely top notch and still revelant talking heads eg Neville, butch Harman, Shaun warne.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Barnesian said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Barnesian said:

    We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.

    Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.

    But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?

    As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
    edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
    DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.

    But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
    Well, it nearly worked; I am very happy to get pissed off with Remainers who characterise 52% of their countrymen as fat, thick bigots because a. it is not true, b. it is snobbish and c. it suggests a failure to grasp the quite simple principle of universal suffrage. "Thick, fat proles get to vote" is not a bug of democracy, it is a feature, or rather the feature, of democracy. Failure to realise this leads to lost referendums.
  • I don't which is worse, england football team or itv's coverage of the england football team.

    BBC and ITV should give up football. Leave it to Sky or BT
    BBC coverage is ok, in a steady competent but out of date / most of the talking heads are totally disconnected from the modern game kinda of way. Same with the cricket and golf.

    Skys coverage of pretty much every sport is just massively superior to everybody else, with absolutely top notch and still revelant talking heads eg Neville, butch Harman, Shaun warne.
    Sky's sports coverage is the main reason for my continued subscription.

    By the way Kane just scored
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Ishmael_Z said:

    tlg86 said:

    On topic: It would be interesting to see the cross tabs of the different questions. Who are more likely to believe that Diana was assassinated? Those who think Russian intel services helped Trump to win the presidency or those who don't?

    It is interesting that apparently one conspiracy theory is supposed to be acceptable whilst another is considered lunatic fringe.

    Personally I think all three contentions are wrong. Of course there are degrees of wrong and whilst the first two are amusing the vaccine one is beyond the pale.
    The vaccine one may be "beyond the pale", but it might be true: the only thing which would disprove it would be a complete theory of what *does* cause autism. I would not be astounded to learn that there are scientists who think it might be true but that an increase in autism is a price worth paying for herd immunity, or that their careers will not survive any statement that the theory might be true. There are precedents for this: eminent scientists lost jobs for questioning the recommendation to stay out of the sun at all times (to avoid skin cancer) on the grounds, which are now accepted to be absolutely right, that the consequent vitamin D deficiency was killing people.
    The other way of disproving a link is to compare large cohorts of people who've received vaccination against cohorts who have not, and compare the incidents of autism in both cohorts. To my knowledge, all such studies have shown no higher incidence of autism in the vaccine cohort, and some indicate a degree of protection against autism (which would support the possible role of viruses in autism onset).

    https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/new-meta-analysis-confirms-no-association-between-vaccines-and-autism
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    edited September 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    tlg86 said:

    On topic: It would be interesting to see the cross tabs of the different questions. Who are more likely to believe that Diana was assassinated? Those who think Russian intel services helped Trump to win the presidency or those who don't?

    It is interesting that apparently one conspiracy theory is supposed to be acceptable whilst another is considered lunatic fringe.

    Personally I think all three contentions are wrong. Of course there are degrees of wrong and whilst the first two are amusing the vaccine one is beyond the pale.
    The vaccine one may be "beyond the pale", but it might be true: the only thing which would disprove it would be a complete theory of what *does* cause autism. I would not be astounded to learn that there are scientists who think it might be true but that an increase in autism is a price worth paying for herd immunity, or that their careers will not survive any statement that the theory might be true. There are precedents for this: eminent scientists lost jobs for questioning the recommendation to stay out of the sun at all times (to avoid skin cancer) on the grounds, which are now accepted to be absolutely right, that the consequent vitamin D deficiency was killing people.
    Interesting to note the difference in don't knows on the vaccine question. I'm pretty sure MMR doesn't cause autism and would strongly advise all parents to get it done because I do know for sure that you don't want your child to get one of those diseases. But do I know for sure that there isn't an increased risk of autism? No.

    I still think it was wrong that the Blair's wouldn't say publicly whether or not Leo had had the MMR vaccine. I know politicians get criticised for that sort of thing (beef burgers etc.) but it might have reduced the hysteria at the time.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    GOAL!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited September 2017

    I don't which is worse, england football team or itv's coverage of the england football team.

    BBC and ITV should give up football. Leave it to Sky or BT
    BBC coverage is ok, in a steady competent but out of date / most of the talking heads are totally disconnected from the modern game kinda of way. Same with the cricket and golf.

    Skys coverage of pretty much every sport is just massively superior to everybody else, with absolutely top notch and still revelant talking heads eg Neville, butch Harman, Shaun warne.
    Sky's sports coverage is the main reason for my continued subscription.

    By the way Kane just scored
    I would say cricket is where sky have too many duffers still living on being great players eg Botham, holding, Gower. None have any real idea of what goes on in the modern game.
  • https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/the-guardian-view-on-the-brexit-talks-clouds-of-delusion

    Richard Nixon had his ‘madman theory’; is Theresa May trying to frighten Europe with the ‘blithering idiot gambit’?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/the-guardian-view-on-the-brexit-talks-clouds-of-delusion

    Richard Nixon had his ‘madman theory’; is Theresa May trying to frighten Europe with the ‘blithering idiot gambit’?

    LOL.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/the-guardian-view-on-the-brexit-talks-clouds-of-delusion

    Richard Nixon had his ‘madman theory’; is Theresa May trying to frighten Europe with the ‘blithering idiot gambit’?


    PS. Nixon's mad monk theory at least has a solid theoretical basis, but is less successful when two mad monks are negotiating each other (= a game of chicken where both drivers throw their steering wheels out of the car).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited September 2017
    nielh said:

    Essexit said:

    MTimT said:

    Omnium said:

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    O/T: I've just been rejected (narrowly, apparently) after a second-stage interview for a graduate job I was extremely keen on. The piece of feedback which stands out is that the length of time I've been in my current non-graduate job (2.5 years), my first job out of university, shows I lack 'drive'. I fear I've managed to sleepwalk into an intractable situation.

    Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company that regards 2.5 years in your first job as showing a lack of drive. They would presumably expect you to leave them after a year or so, and perhaps sack you if you didn't! I appreciate it won't feel like that, but I do think they sound dubious people to work for.


    Like others here I'm convinced you'll have better fortune in another one before long.
    I think the issue isn't

    You know that 'taken on projects' is just saying that your previous job was a bit crap, and that you did what you could to make it less so.
    Strongly disagree.
    You're both right. The job is a bit crap, but I'd argue going beyond the basic tasks, largely of my own volition, shows drive.
    I'd agree with that.
    It sounds like a very unusual reason for rejection and it shouldn't put you off applying for other jobs.
    20 years in one job and you may be start to be in an intractable situation. 2.5 years? No way. Lots of jobs for less than one year would be more likely to set alarm bells ringing with most employers. You can't win.
    As someone who does a lot of interviews, I would agre that showing career progression does matter, but all panels have to come up with legal reasons for their decisions. Often there is little to separate candidates, so their reasons may sometimes need to be taken with a pinch of salt rather than taken to heart.

    That said, my advice for interviews is a naive one. Trust the process and be yourself. Few of us are convincing liars, and people who are appointed from an honest interview tend to be a much better fit. It is always disappointing to not get the job, but in retrospect years later rarely was critical.

    Do an accurate post mortem while it is fresh in your mind. It is unlikely to be the stated reason, not least the stated reason would have been in application form rather than interview, at most it was one thing weighing in the balance, and not something that you can change. What were the others, and what can you do about them?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520

    I don't which is worse, england football team or itv's coverage of the england football team.

    BBC and ITV should give up football. Leave it to Sky or BT
    BBC coverage is ok, in a steady competent but out of date / most of the talking heads are totally disconnected from the modern game kinda of way. Same with the cricket and golf.

    Skys coverage of pretty much every sport is just massively superior to everybody else, with absolutely top notch and still revelant talking heads eg Neville, butch Harman, Shaun warne.
    Sky's sports coverage is the main reason for my continued subscription.

    By the way Kane just scored
    I would say cricket is where sky have too many duffers still living on being great players eg Botham, holding, Gower. None have any real idea of what goes on in the modern game.
    Agree with you on the cricket, but on the other hand their F1 coverage is a model of how to present a complicated and technical sport over a three day event every couple of weeks.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited September 2017
    BREAKING NEWS: Knifeman is arrested at Stratford Westfield shopping centre after one man is stabbed and another injured as shoppers report 'blood all over floor'

    Just another normal day in our nation's capital.
  • england are so dire I would prefer to have sat through 90 mins of giggs, wright and ince.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,090
    edited September 2017

    BREAKING NEWS: Knifeman is arrested at Stratford Westfield shopping centre after one man is stabbed and another injured as shoppers report 'blood all over floor'

    Just another normal day in our nation's capital.

    And in Paris - man with weapon arrested at the Eiffel Tower and Gare du Nord evacuated
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/the-guardian-view-on-the-brexit-talks-clouds-of-delusion

    Richard Nixon had his ‘madman theory’; is Theresa May trying to frighten Europe with the ‘blithering idiot gambit’?

    "That’ll show them, as Corporal Jones would say."
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Not on PB I hope!

    https://tinyurl.com/yddrrjxc
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    I don't which is worse, england football team or itv's coverage of the england football team.

    BBC and ITV should give up football. Leave it to Sky or BT
    BBC coverage is ok, in a steady competent but out of date / most of the talking heads are totally disconnected from the modern game kinda of way. Same with the cricket and golf.

    Skys coverage of pretty much every sport is just massively superior to everybody else, with absolutely top notch and still revelant talking heads eg Neville, butch Harman, Shaun warne.
    Sky's sports coverage is the main reason for my continued subscription.

    By the way Kane just scored
    I would say cricket is where sky have too many duffers still living on being great players eg Botham, holding, Gower. None have any real idea of what goes on in the modern game.
    Trevor Bailey should be given a re-birth and dusted down for TV. That is what knowledge and punditry was about.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Barnesian said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Barnesian said:

    We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.

    Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.

    But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?

    As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
    edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
    DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.

    But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
    Well, it nearly worked; I am very happy to get pissed off with Remainers who characterise 52% of their countrymen as fat, thick bigots because a. it is not true, b. it is snobbish and c. it suggests a failure to grasp the quite simple principle of universal suffrage. "Thick, fat proles get to vote" is not a bug of democracy, it is a feature, or rather the feature, of democracy. Failure to realise this leads to lost referendums.
    Sadly, it is true that Leavers are less educated.
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