Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.
I think that's correct.
A delicate question is whether we in Britain actually want the negotiations to succeed. Possible outcomes include:
1. A successful deal that makes all sides feel British withdrawal is going to work out well 2. A deal with a clear British "win" that extracts us with minimal cost and makes the EU feel humiliated 3. A deal with a clear EU "win" that extracts us on very unfavourable terms and makes Britain regret leaving. 4. No deal.
In principle we should all want number 1. But it's possible for hardcore Remainers to feel that withdrawal is so awful that 3 is preferable, because it maximises the chance of repentance; conversely, it's possible for hardcore Leavers to want 2, giving a sense of tiumph to add to withdrawal. I don't think anyone really wants 4, but there are probably more secret 2s and 3s around than one might like to think, and that can't make the negotiations easier.
I see Brexit only succeeding on its terms if there is a deal with the EU that allows for a relatively smooth exit. The question for us therefore is how much are we prepared to pay? Logically a Leaver would want the exit to be a success and his answer might be, whatever it takes. Remainers who are more conscious of the downsides of Brexit might also be willing to pay the price to avoid disaster. There's theoretical agreement between the two UK factions. Of course you wouldn't go into a negotiation with the aim of paying more, but we don't have much time or leverage. It might just be the reality of our position.
Good points but the other factor is the public who do not want to pay much more than 10 billion according to the polls.
My solution is a two year transition paying the 20 billion gross as now and a final payment of around 30 billion as good will but subject to a tariff free trade deal
Cake and eat it with some cream and cherry on top !. The £30bn will be for commitments already entered into, I take it. The £20bn is as of now. The free trade deal for the future, the EU should just give to us. So what's the point of joining the EU if you get a free trade deal anyway ?
Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.
I think that's correct.
A delicate question is whether we in Britain actually want the negotiations to succeed. Possible outcomes include:
1. A successful deal that makes all sides feel British withdrawal is going to work out well 2. A deal with a clear British "win" that extracts us with minimal cost and makes the EU feel humiliated 3. A deal with a clear EU "win" that extracts us on very unfavourable terms and makes Britain regret leaving. 4. No deal.
In principle we should all want number 1. But it's possible for hardcore Remainers to feel that withdrawal is so awful that 3 is preferable, because it maximises the chance of repentance; conversely, it's possible for hardcore Leavers to want 2, giving a sense of tiumph to add to withdrawal. I don't think anyone really wants 4, but there are probably more secret 2s and 3s around than one might like to think, and that can't make the negotiations easier.
I see Brexit only succeeding on its terms if there is a deal with the EU that allows for a relatively smooth exit. The question for us therefore is how much are we prepared to pay? Logically a Leaver would want the exit to be a success and his answer might be, whatever it takes. Remainers who are more conscious of the downsides of Brexit might also be willing to pay the price to avoid disaster. There's theoretical agreement between the two UK factions. Of course you wouldn't go into a negotiation with the aim of paying more, but we don't have much time or leverage. It might just be the reality of our position.
Good points but the other factor is the public who do not want to pay much more than 10 billion according to the polls.
My solution is a two year transition paying the 20 billion gross as now and a final payment of around 30 billion as good will but subject to a tariff free trade deal
Cake and eat it with some cream and cherry on top !. The £30bn will be for commitments already entered into, I take it. The £20bn is as of now. The free trade deal for the future, the EU should just give to us. So what's the point of joining the EU if you get a free trade deal anyway ?
The problem is the public will not accept paying a big Brexit bill and that could turn opinion in the UK decisively against the EU
Negotiations are a time series dance. The press are willingly ignoring that fact to sell copy. Most of those criticizing the pace of negotiations are doing so because that fits their pre-existing narrative. The fact is, we won't know whether the current pace is good or bad until the entire process is done.
I think that's correct.
A delicate question is whether we in Britain actually want the negotiations to succeed. Possible outcomes include:
1. A successful deal that makes all sides feel British withdrawal is going to work out well 2. A deal with a clear British "win" that extracts us with minimal cost and makes the EU feel humiliated 3. A deal with a clear EU "win" that extracts us on very unfavourable terms and makes Britain regret leaving. 4. No deal.
In principle we should all want number 1. But it's possible for hardcore Remainers to feel that withdrawal is so awful that 3 is preferable, because it maximises the chance of repentance; conversely, it's possible for hardcore Leavers to want 2, giving a sense of tiumph to add to withdrawal. I don't think anyone really wants 4, but there are probably more secret 2s and 3s around than one might like to think, and that can't make the negotiations easier.
I see Brexit only succeeding on its terms if there is a deal with the EU that allows for a relatively smooth exit. The question for us therefore is how much are we prepared to pay? Logically a Leaver would want the exit to be a success and his answer might be, whatever it takes. Remainers who are more conscious of the downsides of Brexit might also be willing to pay the price to avoid disaster. There's theoretical agreement between the two UK factions. Of course you wouldn't go into a negotiation with the aim of paying more, but we don't have much time or leverage. It might just be the reality of our position.
Good points but the other factor is the public who do not want to pay much more than 10 billion according to the polls.
My solution is a two year transition paying the 20 billion gross as now and a final payment of around 30 billion as good will but subject to a tariff free trade deal
Cake and eat it with some cream and cherry on top !. The £30bn will be for commitments already entered into, I take it. The £20bn is as of now. The free trade deal for the future, the EU should just give to us. So what's the point of joining the EU if you get a free trade deal anyway ?
That £1 billion to the DUP looks like a complete bargain
surbiton - I feel your problem - people didn't listen to your well educated views. Perhaps they didn't realise how well educated you were, Did you carry your school reports with you at all times? Perhaps the well educated should adopt a characteristic hat. Many religions do so, and your beliefs are more or less a religion. You could adopt the mob cap of a PhD.
We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.
Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.
But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?
As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.
But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
Well, it nearly worked; I am very happy to get pissed off with Remainers who characterise 52% of their countrymen as fat, thick bigots because a. it is not true, b. it is snobbish and c. it suggests a failure to grasp the quite simple principle of universal suffrage. "Thick, fat proles get to vote" is not a bug of democracy, it is a feature, or rather the feature, of democracy. Failure to realise this leads to lost referendums.
Many thanks to PBers of all political persuasions this evening for their encouraging and helpful words on my career situation
It's that sort of thing that makes PB a family. One additional point that I don't think has been mentioned is that interviews are two-way streets, though if one's out of work they may not feel that way. It's an opportunity to decide if you'd like to work for these guys. I once applied for a job in the voluntary sector for which the entire 80-minute interview was about organigrams and management styles: the panel seemed entirely uninterested in the purpose of their organisation and what I might contribute to it. The organisation was clearly obsessed with internal bureaucracy and although I needed a job I wasn't too sorry not to succeed in joining them.
There is no point in paying anything because it won't buy anything, the EU has no intention of anything but WTO with plenty of customs obstruction for our trade. There has not been a single hint from any EU politician that anything else is going to happen. So just stop.
Draghi is printing 60 billion euros a month. So he raises it to 68 billion... who cares? You can't buy off the EU.
I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.
A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.
As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards. Flag Quote · Off Topic
Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
Richard, It is the expectation that everyone should genuflect and give in to all UK demands, it is hard to understand the mentality of the UK. They live in teh past dreaming of empire.
I am a 54 year old drunk, yet I have a 22 year old fiancee of quite stunning beauty. I just sold the TV rights to my second thriller. Next weekend I fly to Oman to visit two of the world's most luxurious new hotels, for my job. And I voted Brexit. Who's the "smart one" now?
After a massive amount of English railway territory explored in my "Northern Expedition" during the first six months of this year - self-funding of course! - July was a pretty barren month for me - my first calendar month since March 2015 where I didn't do any new rail routes at all, not even any heritage lines or rare curves. For various reasons, mind.
However, in August, I added the Spa Valley and the Kent & East Sussex straddling the Kent/Sussex boundary, and Sittingbourne & Kemsley Light rail and the East Kent wholly in Kent.
Oh and yesterday I did the old Eurostar platforms and route out of Waterloo, using the former curve towards Wandsworth Road (ie. Linford Street). Linford Street curve hasn't been regularly used since 2007, and won't be again for a while!
But if the EU is a customer your firm was trying to sell to - sometimes a salesman doesn't want to let go, but you make a decision to drop the effort - its been 17 months - no sale.
We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.
Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.
But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?
As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.
But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
Well, it nearly worked; I am very happy to get pissed off with Remainers who characterise 52% of their countrymen as fat, thick bigots because a. it is not true, b. it is snobbish and c. it suggests a failure to grasp the quite simple principle of universal suffrage. "Thick, fat proles get to vote" is not a bug of democracy, it is a feature, or rather the feature, of democracy. Failure to realise this leads to lost referendums.
Sadly, it is true that Leavers are less educated.
Only on average; there are leavers here who show no sign at all of having left school at 14. Given the confounders of age and income, it is not obvious what the correlation really means, and "less educated" is not synonymous with "thick".
I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.
A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.
As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards. Flag Quote · Off Topic
Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
Richard, It is the expectation that everyone should genuflect and give in to all UK demands, it is hard to understand the mentality of the UK. They live in teh past dreaming of empire.
Guess which country of the UK I will be visiting tomorrow
I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.
A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.
As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards. Flag Quote · Off Topic
Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
Richard, It is the expectation that everyone should genuflect and give in to all UK demands, it is hard to understand the mentality of the UK. They live in teh past dreaming of empire.
Not at all. Those who live in the past are the Eurofanatics who are arrogant enough to think that the EU will surely change to suit the UK if only we would remain fully engaged. It has been the myth that has sustained the Europhiles through 40 years and is based on a well developed arrogance on their part.
All Leave now expect is that the EU and UK will both act in the best interests of their citizens. The problem here of course is that the EU are not interested in acting in the best interests of their citizens, only of their institutions.
We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.
Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.
But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?
As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.
But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
Well, it nearly worked; I am very happy to get pissed off with Remainers who characterise 52% of their countrymen as fat, thick bigots because a. it is not true, b. it is snobbish and c. it suggests a failure to grasp the quite simple principle of universal suffrage. "Thick, fat proles get to vote" is not a bug of democracy, it is a feature, or rather the feature, of democracy. Failure to realise this leads to lost referendums.
Sadly, it is true that Leavers are less educated.
It is indeed true. The reason of course is because they tend to be older and so from an age when only a small number of people went to university. Of course back then a university education actually indicated some educational ability rather than just cramming in no hopers to get their money.
I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.
A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.
As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards. Flag Quote · Off Topic
Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
Richard, It is the expectation that everyone should genuflect and give in to all UK demands, it is hard to understand the mentality of the UK. They live in teh past dreaming of empire.
Guess which country of the UK I will be visiting tomorrow
There is no point in paying anything because it won't buy anything, the EU has no intention of anything but WTO with plenty of customs obstruction for our trade. There has not been a single hint from any EU politician that anything else is going to happen. So just stop.
Draghi is printing 60 billion euros a month. So he raises it to 68 billion... who cares? You can't buy off the EU.
They NEED our money. The really do. Otherwise there will be an almighty row within the EU about who covers the UK contributions. Potentially explosive.
HMG is right to play hardball and say Fuck off, until we get written and legal guarantees for the future.
I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.
A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.
As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards. Flag Quote · Off Topic
Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
Richard, It is the expectation that everyone should genuflect and give in to all UK demands, it is hard to understand the mentality of the UK. They live in teh past dreaming of empire.
Not at all. Those who live in the past are the Eurofanatics who are arrogant enough to think that the EU will surely change to suit the UK if only we would remain fully engaged. It has been the myth that has sustained the Europhiles through 40 years and is based on a well developed arrogance on their part.
All Leave now expect is that the EU and UK will both act in the best interests of their citizens. The problem here of course is that the EU are not interested in acting in the best interests of their citizens, only of their institutions.
We know, as a generality, that Leave voters are less well-educated. This seems to show that they are more gullible as well - which figures.
Before anyone takes offence, I'm talking generalities. I'm not saying all Leave voters are less well-educated or more gullible. Just most of them.
But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?
As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.
But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
Well, it nearly worked; I am very happy to get pissed off with Remainers who characterise 52% of their countrymen as fat, thick bigots because a. it is not true, b. it is snobbish and c. it suggests a failure to grasp the quite simple principle of universal suffrage. "Thick, fat proles get to vote" is not a bug of democracy, it is a feature, or rather the feature, of democracy. Failure to realise this leads to lost referendums.
Sadly, it is true that Leavers are less educated.
It is indeed true. The reason of course is because they tend to be older and so from an age when only a small number of people went to university. Of course back then a university education actually indicated some educational ability rather than just cramming in no hopers to get their money.
I am highly skeptical of anything that pretends to measure 'level of education'. The most valuable education in life all occurs outside the classroom.
I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.
A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.
As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards. Flag Quote · Off Topic
Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
Richard, It is the expectation that everyone should genuflect and give in to all UK demands, it is hard to understand the mentality of the UK. They live in teh past dreaming of empire.
Guess which country of the UK I will be visiting tomorrow
I think we can guess how you'll be getting there.
Helicopter - only kidding!
I haven't been to that particular country since 2012, and the station I'll be arriving at since 1993.
I believe David Davis has had a very good week. It is interesting that from the European side there is a lot of anger at our audacity of saying there is no legal Brexit bill due rather than saying that Davis is wrong and this is why.
A fervent pro-European I argue with on another site that would make Verhofstadt blush in his Europhileness has switched from arguing that we owe a large sum and they'll see us in court if need be to arguing it doesn't matter what the legalities are we simply need to agree because they said so.
As a wealthy nation our chequebook and historic munificence is one of our strongest points in the forthcoming negotiations. No doubt at the end of the negotiations we will sign up to a payment of some sort but that was always likely. Now it looks more like whatever payment will be a quid pro quo for a good deal, which means getting a good deal, rather than signing up to a big payment that was due and then looking for a deal afterwards. Flag Quote · Off Topic
Hmmm, I will have whatever you have had please.
I do find it strange that you can be so positive about Scottish Independence (rightly so in my opinion) and yet so negative about UK Independence. To my mind the same arguments apply to each case and both are positive steps for the countries concerned.
Richard, It is the expectation that everyone should genuflect and give in to all UK demands, it is hard to understand the mentality of the UK. They live in teh past dreaming of empire.
Not at all. Those who live in the past are the Eurofanatics who are arrogant enough to think that the EU will surely change to suit the UK if only we would remain fully engaged. It has been the myth that has sustained the Europhiles through 40 years and is based on a well developed arrogance on their part.
All Leave now expect is that the EU and UK will both act in the best interests of their citizens. The problem here of course is that the EU are not interested in acting in the best interests of their citizens, only of their institutions.
And their constituent national governments.
I am certainly not convinced by the available evidence that that is the case
But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?
As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.
But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
Well, i to lost referendums.
Sadly, it is true that Leavers are less educated.
Only on average; there are leavers here who show no sign at all of having left school at 14. Given the confounders of age and income, it is not obvious what the correlation really means, and "less educated" is not synonymous with "thick".
I imagine an IQ test of those who supported or opposed the French, American or English (Cromwellian) revolutions - or, say, the Abolition of Slavery in the USA - would have found a similar distribution. Those who were doing OK or rather well under present circumstances, the status quo, would by definition be the better off and better educated, the lucky ones. They would have been anti revolution, they would have voted REMAIN. Their IQ would, on average, be higher.
It would have been the poor, the unlucky, the unlettered, the hard working but repressed, the slaves themselves, the "great unwashed", who, in each case, would have voted for LEAVE, they WANTED a change to the status quo. And their IQ would surely be lower, on average.
And yet who amongst us would say that the stupid people were wrong to support the French and American revolutions, or Cromwell's Civil War, or the Abolition of Slavery?
Revolutions overthrow clever but overly-entitled elites. That's the whole fucking point.
What a load of bollocks - none of the over 65 died-in-the-wool Tory Leavers of my acquantance would ever have supported a revolution... rather they want to roll the clock back to some mythical 1950s golden age.
PS You're also confusing IQ with education - they don't necessarily correlate.
But how do you assess gullibility? If believing conspiracy theories implies gullibility does that not apply to the Russian assistance theory, or are the usual rules reversed because Trump?
As an educated Remain voter I would say 1 and 3 are definite DKs. Di was not assassinated. Gullibility to me is what is exhibited by people who believe and act on "Nigerian prince" emails.
edit to add: and the mental attitude which is opposite to gullibility is scepticism, or in other words DK, on which Leave outperform on all 3 questions.
DK might mean I haven't a clue, never thought about it, don't ask me, rather than scepticism.
But I do take your point. I was just thinking about the bus. I was also trying to take a rise out of leavers but clearly I haven't succeeded. I just got an intelligent reply from an educated Remainer.
Well, i to lost referendums.
Sadly, it is true that Leavers are less educated.
Only on average; there are leavers here who show no sign at all of having left school at 14. Given the confounders of age and income, it is not obvious what the correlation really means, and "less educated" is not synonymous with "thick".
I im
It would have been the poor, the unlucky, the unlettered, the hard working but repressed, the slaves themselves, the "great unwashed", who, in each case, would have voted for LEAVE, they WANTED a change to the status quo. And their IQ would surely be lower, on average.
And yet who amongst us would say that the stupid people were wrong to support the French and American revolutions, or Cromwell's Civil War, or the Abolition of Slavery?
Revolutions overthrow clever but overly-entitled elites. That's the whole fucking point.
What a load of bollocks - none of the over 65 died-in-the-wool Tory Leavers of my acquantance would ever have supported a revolution... rather they want to roll the clock back to some mythical 1950s golden age.
PS You're also confusing IQ with education - they don't necessarily correlate.
Oh god. The dullness. You're the reason I am close to leaving PB.
Opinion without cognition, assertion dressed as argument, also a distinct whiff of wank.
Of you go then - it's about time for your weekly flounce anyway!
43% of graduates and ABs voted Leave and 36% of those with a higher degree, while 36% of DEs (the unskilled working class and the unemployed) voted Remain so plenty of educated well off people voted Leave and plenty of uneducated, poorer people voted Remain even if the tendency was you were more likely to vote Remain if you were a graduate and well off
...43% of graduates and ABs voted Leave and 36% of those with a higher degree, while 36% of DEs (the unskilled working class and the unemployed) voted Remain so plenty of educated well off people voted Leave and plenty of uneducated, poorer people voted Remain even if the tendency was you were more likely to vote Remain if you were a graduate and well off...
I've long thought about introducing the "Rule of Many/Most/Some", where you can construct an argument along the lines of "Most people said X, and many people agreed, and some agreed more", and this construction is true for any proposition and its exact opposite simultaneously
To give an example using your statement: exactly the same data, no cheating, let's go
"...57% of graduates and ABs did not vote Leave and 64% of those with a higher degree, while 64% of DEs (the unskilled working class and the unemployed) did not vote Remain so plenty of educated well off people did not vote Leave and plenty of uneducated, poorer people did not vote Remain..."
Exactly the same data. Entirely the opposite sense.
It's not a dig at you: everybody does it. But it drives me ker-razy. It's up there with using percentages without absolute numbers (and vice-versa). Drags fingernails along blackboard Quint-stylee...
I imagine an IQ test of those who supported or opposed the French, American or English (Cromwellian) revolutions - or, say, the Abolition of Slavery in the USA - would have found a similar distribution. Those who were doing OK or rather well under present circumstances, the status quo, would by definition be the better off and better educated, the lucky ones. They would have been anti revolution, they would have voted REMAIN. Their IQ would, on average, be higher.
It would have been the poor, the unlucky, the unlettered, the hard working but repressed, the slaves themselves, the "great unwashed", who, in each case, would have voted for LEAVE, they WANTED a change to the status quo. And their IQ would surely be lower, on average.
And yet who amongst us would say that the stupid people were wrong to support the French and American revolutions, or Cromwell's Civil War, or the Abolition of Slavery?
Revolutions overthrow clever but overly-entitled elites. That's the whole fucking point.
Democracy isn't about making good decisions, it's about seeking the consent of the governed. People, regardless of education or intelligence or anything else, have the right to decide the course of their lives, even if (grits teeth) they decide wrong. Heads should be counted, not weighed.
...43% of graduates and ABs voted Leave and 36% of those with a higher degree, while 36% of DEs (the unskilled working class and the unemployed) voted Remain so plenty of educated well off people voted Leave and plenty of uneducated, poorer people voted Remain even if the tendency was you were more likely to vote Remain if you were a graduate and well off...
I've long thought about introducing the "Rule of Many/Most/Some", where you can construct an argument along the lines of "Most people said X, and many people agreed, and some agreed more", and this construction is true for any proposition and its exact opposite simultaneously
To give an example using your statement: exactly the same data, no cheating, let's go
"...57% of graduates and ABs did not vote Leave and 64% of those with a higher degree, while 64% of DEs (the unskilled working class and the unemployed) did not vote Remain so plenty of educated well off people did not vote Leave and plenty of uneducated, poorer people did not vote Remain..."
Exactly the same data. Entirely the opposite sense.
It's not a dig at you: everybody does it. But it drives me ker-razy. It's up there with using percentages without absolute numbers (and vice-versa). Drags fingernails along blackboard Quint-stylee...
Well that is pretty much what I said anyway, I was just pointing out that while stereotypes can be drawn from the data it does not change the fact that over a third of those with degrees voted Leave and over a third of the unskilled voted Remain
And how many labour supporters or voters read the Times, or any of the Murdoch press? Come to that, how many copies of the Times are actually sold these days, compared to 1 year, 5 and 10 years. Certainly, very few would read it on line, hidden behind a pay wall. (Something, I gather the Sun has given up on)
Football fans face higher ticket prices because of Brexit, the Liberal Democrats have claimed. The fall in the value of sterling since the EU referendum has meant Premier League teams have paid out an extra £114 million in summer transfer fees, according to Lib Dem MP Tim Farron.
He says some of the cost will now be passed on to supporters.
The Lib Dems say the situation has worsened since last year when clubs paid an extra £54 million due to the fall in the exchange rate in the immediate wake of the referendum result. The falling pound means Chelsea and Manchester City have paid nearly £50 million more between them on their summer transfer bill, the party calculated.
Alvaro Morata's transfer to Chelsea could have cost £9 million less if it was not for the drop in the pound, according to the Lib Dems.
Mr Farron said: 'The pound has sunk in value thanks to the Government's appalling mishandling of Brexit – a sign of the damage leaving the EU will do to our economy.
'No fan wants to see their club having to pay more for their summer signings but that is what has happened.
Comments
Perhaps the well educated should adopt a characteristic hat. Many religions do so, and your beliefs are more or less a religion. You could adopt the mob cap of a PhD.
Draghi is printing 60 billion euros a month. So he raises it to 68 billion... who cares? You can't buy off the EU.
However, in August, I added the Spa Valley and the Kent & East Sussex straddling the Kent/Sussex boundary, and Sittingbourne & Kemsley Light rail and the East Kent wholly in Kent.
Oh and yesterday I did the old Eurostar platforms and route out of Waterloo, using the former curve towards Wandsworth Road (ie. Linford Street). Linford Street curve hasn't been regularly used since 2007, and won't be again for a while!
Edited
All Leave now expect is that the EU and UK will both act in the best interests of their citizens. The problem here of course is that the EU are not interested in acting in the best interests of their citizens, only of their institutions.
I am highly skeptical of anything that pretends to measure 'level of education'. The most valuable education in life all occurs outside the classroom.
I haven't been to that particular country since 2012, and the station I'll be arriving at since 1993.
PS You're also confusing IQ with education - they don't necessarily correlate.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
Last year, back to 63%
To give an example using your statement: exactly the same data, no cheating, let's go
"...57% of graduates and ABs did not vote Leave and 64% of those with a higher degree, while 64% of DEs (the unskilled working class and the unemployed) did not vote Remain so plenty of educated well off people did not vote Leave and plenty of uneducated, poorer people did not vote Remain..."
Exactly the same data. Entirely the opposite sense.
It's not a dig at you: everybody does it. But it drives me ker-razy. It's up there with using percentages without absolute numbers (and vice-versa). Drags fingernails along blackboard Quint-stylee...
The article actually uses the phrase "despite Brexit"
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/903222404532641792
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/903222869861302272
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/903314621242761216
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/903315363751919616
The fall in the value of sterling since the EU referendum has meant Premier League teams have paid out an extra £114 million in summer transfer fees, according to Lib Dem MP Tim Farron.
He says some of the cost will now be passed on to supporters.
The Lib Dems say the situation has worsened since last year when clubs paid an extra £54 million due to the fall in the exchange rate in the immediate wake of the referendum result.
The falling pound means Chelsea and Manchester City have paid nearly £50 million more between them on their summer transfer bill, the party calculated.
Alvaro Morata's transfer to Chelsea could have cost £9 million less if it was not for the drop in the pound, according to the Lib Dems.
Mr Farron said: 'The pound has sunk in value thanks to the Government's appalling mishandling of Brexit – a sign of the damage leaving the EU will do to our economy.
'No fan wants to see their club having to pay more for their summer signings but that is what has happened.
https://tinyurl.com/ydab8zb8
(unless it is someone else's fiancee....)