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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hung Parliaments are becoming the norm and we have to get used

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    Forget statues, according to cnn, ESPN reassigned a commentator as his name is Robert Lee (an Asian American) because concerns might be insensitive / offensive.

    I would have to change my name if I lived in America today.
    Your name is Abraham Lincoln?
    Close - lol ,my name is a hero to the confederasy ;-)
    A friend of mine is called Alexander Stephens.

    A father of another friend is called George Bush.
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    isam said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:

    Brexit has caused ructions for many Finns in Britain and Brits in Finland, and on Wednesday HS takes a look at one case in some detail. Researcher Eva Johanna Holmberg received a letter from the Home Office this month telling her that she had no right to be in Britain and had one month to leave the country.

    Her mistake, it seems, was to apply via the Home Office website for the status of 'qualified person'--an EU citizen who has lived in the UK for five years and is therefore entitled to 'settled status' and similar rights to British citizens.

    This is not yet a necessary step for EU citizens in the UK, but Holmberg decided to do it anyway for peace of mind and to get the admin out of the way. The website looked simple, she tells HS, so she sent in her application. Unfortunately it was rejected and the UK government told her to leave.

    She immediately contacted lawyers, who said the removal letter was almost certainly without foundation but difficult to rescind. Her partner contacted the local MP, the Green Party's Caroline Lucas, and she promised to help.

    But despite legal eagles and a prominent politician in her corner, Holmberg remains in limbo. Her advocates are unsure why exactly her application was rejected but suspect it might be to do with her employment situation. Although she works for Queen Mary University in London, her employer is technically Helsinki University--and that might not suffice for UK authorities.

    In any case, she has legal bills of 3,800 euros and counting and considerably less peace of mind than she had when she entered the Kafkaesque bureaucracy around Britain's chaotic plans for a life after Brexit.

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    So it was her fuck up. What a surprise

    The best solution would be to let her re-apply w the correct details. Otherwise we could be one academic fellow studying British travel in the 17th century short!
    I'd forgotten that Leavers despise experts. With that in mind, she's lucky she's not being subjected to ordeal by fire.
    It is a sad indictment of Britain today that our kids have neither the drive nor the work ethic to go into the fields and pick the 'Travel and Self-Description in Seventeenth-Century English Culture'
    LOL!!
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Johnno, agree entirely on Marshal. Top chap. (Can recommend Asbridge's biography of him).

    Mr. Eagles, saying there are others worthier of a statue is not the same as justifying tearing statues down.

    The Lionheart was a successful war leader. When he was alive, we advanced, when he died, we were beaten back.

    We need an equestrian statue of Edward I, riding over a heap of dead Scots.
    I've said all monopoly moneyScottish bank notes should have pictures of old Longshanks on them.

    Also on all Scottish pound coins should have 'Malleus Scotorum' on them instead of 'Nemo me impune lacessit.'

    Obvs an image of Longshanks on them would be a bonus.
    The correct way to remember Edward the First is the only way - shitting himself to death at the thought of facing Robert the Bruce.
    You ruined my productivity yesterday.

    The WeWantPlates twitter account has me mesmerised.
    Out of all the horrific horrors on there only 2 made me actually angry.

    Charged over 3 Euros for this

    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/763401319457644544

    then there was this one, served to a child. A three year old child!

    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/733721914355666944
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,964

    isam said:

    Her LinkedIn says she is currently at Helsinki Uni as and Academy Research fellow studying 'Travel and Self-Description in Seventeenth-Century English Culture, 1.9. 2016-31.8.2021'
    The local paper has covered her story - and correct me if I'm mistaken, but that doesn't look like Brighton behind her....

    http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000005336613.html?share=ae0acaea3dacda415e88e73cd81e20eb
    . Here's another piece of evidence that you might wish to consider:

    http://www.history.qmul.ac.uk/staff/profile/dr-eva-johanna-holmberg

    Neither of you are considering the more basic question. Is this really someone who Britain should need or want to deport?
    You see but you do not observe:

    Academy of Finland Research Fellow, Visiting Fellow

    How can we deport someone who isn't here?

    Better get more facts eh?

    Or do you prefer a rush to judgment - like in Irene Clennell's case?

    "Visiting Fellow" is an academic title. As usual, your reading skills are letting you down.

    And well done for ducking the question directly asked of you (which could also be applied to Ms Clennell).
    As you're clearly not in possession of all the facts, but seem to subscribe to the 'Hard cases make good laws' and 'Rush to Judgment' schools of thought I'll leave you to your Brexit fantasies.

    If only we could turn the clock back a year when the Home Office reached sound decisions based on accurately submitted paperwork, everything would be so much nicer eh?

    I look forward to all of the facts emerging.....
    Well ducked again. One day you'll give a straight answer to a straight question instead of throwing up dust in a too-transparent manner.
    Got a mirror, dear?
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,921
    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:

    Brexit has caused ructions for many Finns in Britain and Brits in Finland, and on Wednesday HS takes a look at one case in some detail. Researcher Eva Johanna Holmberg received a letter from the Home Office this month telling her that she had no right to be in Britain and had one month to leave the country.

    Her mistake, it seems, was to apply via the Home Office website for the status of 'qualified person'--an EU citizen who has lived in the UK for five years and is therefore entitled to 'settled status' and similar rights to British citizens.

    This is not yet a necessary step for EU citizens in the UK, but Holmberg decided to do it anyway for peace of mind and to get the admin out of the way. The website looked simple, she tells HS, so she sent in her application. Unfortunately it was rejected and the UK government told her to leave.

    She immediately contacted lawyers, who said the removal letter was almost certainly without foundation but difficult to rescind. Her partner contacted the local MP, the Green Party's Caroline Lucas, and she promised to help.

    But despite legal eagles and a prominent politician in her corner, Holmberg remains in limbo. Her advocates are unsure why exactly her application was rejected but suspect it might be to do with her employment situation. Although she works for Queen Mary University in London, her employer is technically Helsinki University--and that might not suffice for UK authorities.

    In any case, she has legal bills of 3,800 euros and counting and considerably less peace of mind than she had when she entered the Kafkaesque bureaucracy around Britain's chaotic plans for a life after Brexit.

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 115,012
    edited August 2017
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Johnno, agree entirely on Marshal. Top chap. (Can recommend Asbridge's biography of him).

    Mr. Eagles, saying there are others worthier of a statue is not the same as justifying tearing statues down.

    The Lionheart was a successful war leader. When he was alive, we advanced, when he died, we were beaten back.

    We need an equestrian statue of Edward I, riding over a heap of dead Scots.
    I've said all monopoly moneyScottish bank notes should have pictures of old Longshanks on them.

    Also on all Scottish pound coins should have 'Malleus Scotorum' on them instead of 'Nemo me impune lacessit.'

    Obvs an image of Longshanks on them would be a bonus.
    The correct way to remember Edward the First is the only way - shitting himself to death at the thought of facing Robert the Bruce.
    You ruined my productivity yesterday.

    The WeWantPlates twitter account has me mesmerised.
    Out of all the horrific horrors on there only 2 made me actually angry.

    Charged over 3 Euros for this

    twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/763401319457644544

    then there was this one, served to a child. A three year old child!

    twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/733721914355666944
    The dog bowl one made me gag.

    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/894849732165722113

    The Tonka Truck had me shaking my head, but this one had me angry, you can't do this to a book.

    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/889570334017560576
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:

    Brexit has caused ructions for many Finns in Britain and Brits in Finland, and on Wednesday HS takes a look at one case in some detail. Researcher Eva Johanna Holmberg received a letter from the Home Office this month telling her that she had no right to be in Britain and had one month to leave the country.

    Her mistake, it seems, was to apply via the Home Office website for the status of 'qualified person'--an EU citizen who has lived in the UK for five years and is therefore entitled to 'settled status' and similar rights to British citizens.

    This is not yet a necessary step for EU citizens in the UK, but Holmberg decided to do it anyway for peace of mind and to get the admin out of the way. The website looked simple, she tells HS, so she sent in her application. Unfortunately it was rejected and the UK government told her to leave.

    She immediately contacted lawyers, who said the removal letter was almost certainly without foundation but difficult to rescind. Her partner contacted the local MP, the Green Party's Caroline Lucas, and she promised to help.

    But despite legal eagles and a prominent politician in her corner, Holmberg remains in limbo. Her advocates are unsure why exactly her application was rejected but suspect it might be to do with her employment situation. Although she works for Queen Mary University in London, her employer is technically Helsinki University--and that might not suffice for UK authorities.

    In any case, she has legal bills of 3,800 euros and counting and considerably less peace of mind than she had when she entered the Kafkaesque bureaucracy around Britain's chaotic plans for a life after Brexit.

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited August 2017
    In favour of the dog bowl I am at least happy that the kitchen staff can clean it to an acceptable level of hygiene and is fundamentally a bowl.

    This on the other hand was not something I needed to see whilst recovering from food poisoning,

    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/664927129268838401
  • Options
    Interesting article Alistair but I'm not sure I agree that hung parliaments will continue to be frequent in the future. One thing you need to take into account is the number of non-Con, non-Lab seats. I've had a look at this:

    Year Non C Non L seats % seats
    1970 12 1.9%
    Feb-74 37 5.8%
    Oct-74 39 6.1%
    1979 27 4.3%
    1983 44 6.8%
    1987 45 6.9%
    1992 44 6.8%
    1997 76 11.5%
    2001 80 12.1%
    2005 93 14.4%
    2010 86 13.2%
    2015 88 13.5%
    2017 71 10.9%

    Up to 1997 Con and Lab got over 93% of the seats combined so hung parliaments were rare. With the rise of the LDs and then the SNP the combined Con/Lab share has fallen below 90% increasing the window for hung parliaments.

    If as some people think the SNP decline further next time then we could easily be back to about 40-50 non-Con/non-Lab seats and with so many close marginals the window between Con maj 1 and Lab maj 1 could easily be very small.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670


    The dog bowl one made me gag.


    In favour of the dog bowl I am at least happy that the kitchen staff can clean it to an acceptable level of hygiene and is fundamentally a bowl.

    This on the other hand was not something I needed to see whilst recovering from food poisoning,

    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/664927129268838401

  • Options
    Alistair said:


    The dog bowl one made me gag.


    In favour of the dog bowl I am at least happy that the kitchen staff can clean it to an acceptable level of hygiene and is fundamentally a bowl.

    This on the other hand was not something I needed to see whilst recovering from food poisoning,

    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/664927129268838401

    I have no words.
  • Options
    Yorkcity said:

    Surely statues need to be placed around the country for all the Brexit greats who gave freedom back to the people.Outside parliament David Davis ,Liam Fox , Boris Johnson .In prominent places around the region's Michael Gove ,Nigel Farage.A bank holiday on every anniversary of the referendum vote.

    Independence Day of course.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,486
    edited August 2017
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    In contrast:

    "Gordon Brown is not a popular figure among readers of the Daily Telegraph...Yet to his credit, Brown was also a man of big ideas, an attribute which seems sadly lacking in the mediocrity of today’s political landscape."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/08/22/britain-surely-doomed-doesnt-urgently-start-upping-investment/

    I'm puzzled by this comment. What big ideas did Brown have? I can't come up with any.

    H

    I do agree that no current politician has imagination or vision. But that was true in the 1950s and 1960s as well, or indeed the 1880s and 1890s. The bigger issue is that steady as she goes will hardly cut it now.
    He nationalised the banks. This helped resolve the banking crisis, here and in many other countries which followed the basic idea. He managed to persuade the other world leaders (including newly elected Barack Obama) that this was not just a solution, but the only one. He was right, and had he failed to persuade them, the consequences for us alll would have been much more severe,

    He was a crap PM, but this one idea stands to his eternal credit. And it certainly qualifies as a big one.
    Was it his idea though? How much input did the likes of Darling and Vadera have into it?

    True, it worked. But if he had forced the Treasury and the Bank of England to work together effectively in the previous five years on banking regulation, it might not have been necessary or at least not on such a scale.
    My post has been criticised from two contradictory viewpoints. You and Cyclefree say the policy was sound, but attribute it to others, notably Darling, and another poster who reckons it was a crap idea anyway.

    I think we can disregard the latter, but as regards you and Miss C I have to defer, except to the extent that it would have been difficult for the policy to be implemented without the active support of the PM. There's also the well-document accounts of Brown's active role at the G20 Summit which was taking place at the height of the crisis.

    Oh, and I readily concede that Brown's spending policies contributed to the problem, so to some extent he was guilty of encouraging the fire he later helped to put out. He contribution to the conflagration should not be overestimated however. The problem really did start in the USA, and the amount of dodgy debt knocking around at the time was colossal and dwarfed Brown's own profligacy.

    (The spivs in London Square Mile are of course not so easily exonerated but that's another story - It's well-documented in Silver's book The Signal and The Noise, if you are interested.)
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,221
    Scott_P said:
    Daughter of long lamented Labour leader John, of course.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,921
    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,952
    That Wewantplates twitter feed is fantastic...
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2017
    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    I was joking. You are virtue signalling. I don't want this lady deported, I was just sure there would be more to it than the initial outrageux indicated.

    How we Brexit is down to the elected government of the day, one that I didn't vote for.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Interesting article Alistair but I'm not sure I agree that hung parliaments will continue to be frequent in the future. One thing you need to take into account is the number of non-Con, non-Lab seats. I've had a look at this:

    Year Non C Non L seats % seats
    1970 12 1.9%
    Feb-74 37 5.8%
    Oct-74 39 6.1%
    1979 27 4.3%
    1983 44 6.8%
    1987 45 6.9%
    1992 44 6.8%
    1997 76 11.5%
    2001 80 12.1%
    2005 93 14.4%
    2010 86 13.2%
    2015 88 13.5%
    2017 71 10.9%

    Up to 1997 Con and Lab got over 93% of the seats combined so hung parliaments were rare. With the rise of the LDs and then the SNP the combined Con/Lab share has fallen below 90% increasing the window for hung parliaments.

    If as some people think the SNP decline further next time then we could easily be back to about 40-50 non-Con/non-Lab seats and with so many close marginals the window between Con maj 1 and Lab maj 1 could easily be very small.

    The window will probably (though not definitely) be narrower next time than this. But you also have to look at the marginality of the seats too. If the Conservatives can buck history and do better in their third election after taking power, they might get an overall majority quite easily. But Labour have a lot more work to do, as I note in the article.

    To mix metaphors, you need to think about the steepness of the slopes on either side as well as the width of the valley.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,221
    r.i.p. Sunday Politics
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    ydoethur said:

    In contrast:

    "Gordon Brown is not a popular figure among readers of the Daily Telegraph...Yet to his credit, Brown was also a man of big ideas, an attribute which seems sadly lacking in the mediocrity of today’s political landscape."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/08/22/britain-surely-doomed-doesnt-urgently-start-upping-investment/

    I'm puzzled by this comment. What big ideas did Brown have? I can't come up with any.

    He did a lot of tinkering around the edges - tax credits spring to mind - but it was Blair who was the more imaginative. Indeed, on things like city academies and NHS reorganisations Brown was the one who blocked things, rather than started them.

    I do agree that no current politician has imagination or vision. But that was true in the 1950s and 1960s as well, or indeed the 1880s and 1890s. The bigger issue is that steady as she goes will hardly cut it now.
    Mastercardo ergo sum
    Spending is investment
    Debt is wealth
    Mr Micawber
    "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,952



    My post has been criticised from two contradictory viewpoints. You and Cyclefree say the policy was sound, but attribute it to others, notably Darling, and another poster who reckons it was a crap idea anyway.

    I think we can disregard the latter, but as regards you and Miss C I have to defer, except to the extent that it would have been difficult for the policy to be implemented without the active support of the PM. There's also the well-document accounts of Brown's active role at the G20 Summit which was taking place at the height of the crisis.

    Oh, and I readily concede that Brown's spending policies contributed to the problem, so to some extent he was guilty of encouraging the fire he later helped to put out. He contribution to the conflagration should not be overestimated however. The problem really did start in the USA, and the amount of dodgy debt knocking around at the time was colossal and dwarfed Brown's own profligacy.

    (The spivs in London Square Mile are of course not so easily exonerated but that's another story - It's well-documented in Silver's book The Signal and The Noise, if you are interested.)

    His conduct post-premiership also looks a lot better than what Tony Blair has been up to.

    Brown's spending is a complete red herring. His major failing was light touch bank regulation - he was hardly alone in that - but as a Labour politician he really should have known better.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,496
    rkrkrk said:

    That Wewantplates twitter feed is fantastic...

    :lol:
    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/895000426344534016
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,655
    isam said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:

    Brexit has caused ructions for many Finns in Britain and Brits in Finland, and on Wednesday HS takes a look at one case in some detail. Researcher Eva Johanna Holmberg received a letter from the Home Office this month telling her that she had no right to be in Britain and had one month to leave the country.

    Her mistake, it seems, was to apply via the Home Office website for the status of 'qualified person'--an EU citizen who has lived in the UK for five years and is therefore entitled to 'settled status' and similar rights to British citizens.

    This is not yet a necessary step for EU citizens in the UK, but Holmberg decided to do it anyway for peace of mind and to get the admin out of the way. The website looked simple, she tells HS, so she sent in her application. Unfortunately it was rejected and the UK government told her to leave.

    She immediately contacted lawyers, who said the removal letter was almost certainly without foundation but difficult to rescind. Her partner contacted the local MP, the Green Party's Caroline Lucas, and she promised to help.

    But despite legal eagles and a prominent politician in her corner, Holmberg remains in limbo. Her advocates are unsure why exactly her application was rejected but suspect it might be to do with her employment situation. Although she works for Queen Mary University in London, her employer is technically Helsinki University--and that might not suffice for UK authorities.

    In any case, she has legal bills of 3,800 euros and counting and considerably less peace of mind than she had when she entered the Kafkaesque bureaucracy around Britain's chaotic plans for a life after Brexit.

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    So it was her fuck up. What a surprise

    The best solution would be to let her re-apply w the correct details. Otherwise we could be one academic fellow studying British travel in the 17th century short!
    I'd forgotten that Leavers despise experts. With that in mind, she's lucky she's not being subjected to ordeal by fire.
    It is a sad indictment of Britain today that our kids have neither the drive nor the work ethic to go into the fields and pick the 'Travel and Self-Description in Seventeenth-Century English Culture'
    yeah we're better off without her and her foreign "enquiring mind".
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,921
    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    I was joking. You are virtue signalling. I don't want this lady deported, I was just sure there would be more to it than the initial outrageux indicated.

    How we Brexit is down to the elected government of the day, one that I didn't vote for.
    I am not virtue signalling. The issues are systemic. She is being deported because the UKBA is set up to make life difficult for foreigners and not to control our borders. The ones that get in are the well resourced, well connected and most willing to play the system. The government wants more of that after Brexit.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,952

    rkrkrk said:

    That Wewantplates twitter feed is fantastic...

    :lol:
    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/895000426344534016
    https://twitter.com/WeWantPlates/status/889512885029924865

    Really made me laugh.
    Clearly the Camden Hell's lager wasn't hipster enough on its own...
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,065
    Mr. 43, there have been many tales here of the UKBA's woeful ways.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,065
    F1: Vandoorne confirmed for McLaren next year.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,921

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    That too. The immigrants that are most put off are those that are most marketable and have choices about where they go.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,964
    I loved presenting Sunday Politics, it was a privilege and honour to hold the political discourse up to the light for all those years and while I will miss it greatly I am delighted to continue to work for the BBC on This Week, Daily Politics and other projects.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/andrew-neil-steps-down-as-sunday-politics-host
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,655
    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    I was joking. You are virtue signalling. I don't want this lady deported, I was just sure there would be more to it than the initial outrageux indicated.

    How we Brexit is down to the elected government of the day, one that I didn't vote for.
    This is the core of Leavers' cognitive dissonance. You (not just you) say it's down to the government of the day, but I'm guessing you would cry blue murder if the government of the day said: we're staying in the single market.

    You can't have your cake and eat it, no matter what implement it is served upon.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The Government had just released it's latest Brexit position paper, on the jurisdiction of courts.

    And the PM has spent the day disavowing it

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/900304010762227712
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,221
    Home Office sources said it seemed the letter was sent “in error”.
    The plot thickens.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,655

    I loved presenting Sunday Politics, it was a privilege and honour to hold the political discourse up to the light for all those years and while I will miss it greatly I am delighted to continue to work for the BBC on This Week, Daily Politics and other projects.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/andrew-neil-steps-down-as-sunday-politics-host

    trans: "I want a lie-in and pub lunch (with the Sunday Roast served on a plate, obvs) like most of the rest of the country."
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,496
    It's time for anyone who mocked the promise of 'global Britain' to eat humble pie.
    https://twitter.com/tkbeynon/status/900300471746912257
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,655
    edited August 2017
    geoffw said:

    Home Office sources said it seemed the letter was sent “in error”.
    The plot thickens.

    She tried to MOT her car two months before it was due, it failed because trying to MOT your car that far ahead of the due date is an automatic fail, and then the garage said: you can't drive the car now.

    Edit: I've no clue whether this actually is the case, but the analogy ROCKS (where's @kle4 when you need him!).
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,221

    It's time for anyone who mocked the promise of 'global Britain' to eat humble pie.
    https://twitter.com/tkbeynon/status/900300471746912257

    er, no.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2017
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    That too. The immigrants that are most put off are those that are most marketable and have choices about where they go.
    On that subject:

    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/employment/600-overseas-gps-to-be-recruited-for-english-practices-by-april/20035133.article

    And a campaign to recruit GPs from Australia? ROFL! there are 350 fewer GPs than 2015, despite Hunt's promised 5000 recruits.

    Lots of undergraduate medical school places in clearing too. Nearly all medical schools unable to fill their courses.

    Its almost as if our country is governed by incompetents...
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:

    Brexit has caused ructions for many Finns in Britain and Brits in Finland, and on Wednesday HS takes a look at one case in some detail. Researcher Eva Johanna Holmberg received a letter from the Home Office this month telling her that she had no right to be in Britain and had one month to leave the country.


    This is not yet a necessary step for EU citizens in the UK, but Holmberg decided to do it anyway for peace of mind and to get the admin out of the way. The website looked simple, she tells HS, so she sent in her application. Unfortunately it was rejected and the UK government told her to leave.

    She immediately contacted lawyers, who said the removal letter was almost certainly without foundation but difficult to rescind. Her partner contacted the local MP, the Green Party's Caroline Lucas, and she promised to help.

    But despite legal eagles and a prominent politician in her corner, Holmberg remains in limbo. Her advocates are unsure why exactly her application was rejected but suspect it might be to do with her employment situation. Although she works for Queen Mary University in London, her employer is technically Helsinki University--and that might not suffice for UK authorities.

    In any case, she has legal bills of 3,800 euros and counting and considerably less peace of mind than she had when she entered the Kafkaesque bureaucracy around Britain's chaotic plans for a life after Brexit.

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    So it was her fuck up. What a surprise

    The best solution would be to let her re-apply w the correct details. Otherwise we could be one academic fellow studying British travel in the 17th century short!
    I'd forgotten that Leavers despise experts. With that in mind, she's lucky she's not being subjected to ordeal by fire.
    It is a sad indictment of Britain today that our kids have neither the drive nor the work ethic to go into the fields and pick the 'Travel and Self-Description in Seventeenth-Century English Culture'
    yeah we're better off without her and her foreign "enquiring mind".
    I am here as a resource to make people feel better about themselves, you are welcome.
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800



    It is a sad indictment of Britain today that our kids have neither the drive nor the work ethic to go into the fields and pick the 'Travel and Self-Description in Seventeenth-Century English Culture'

    yeah we're better off without her and her foreign "enquiring mind".

    Genuine question, who funds her studies here? I presume she does so herself?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,655
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:

    Brexit has caused ructions for many Finns in Britain and Brits in Finland, and on Wednesday HS takes a look at one case in some detail. Researcher Eva Johanna Holmberg received a letter from the Home Office this month telling her that she had no right to be in Britain and had one month to leave the country.


    This is not yet a necessary step for EU citizens in the UK, but Holmberg decided to do it anyway for peace of mind and to get the admin out of the way. The website looked simple, she tells HS, so she sent in her application. Unfortunately it was rejected and the UK government told her to leave.

    She immediately contacted lawyers, who said the removal letter was almost certainly without foundation but difficult to rescind. Her partner contacted the local MP, the Green Party's Caroline Lucas, and she promised to help.

    But despite legal eagles and a prominent politician in her corner, Holmberg remains in limbo. Her advocates are unsure why exactly her application was rejected but suspect it might be to do with her employment situation. Although she works for Queen Mary University in London, her employer is technically Helsinki University--and that might not suffice for UK authorities.

    In any case, she has legal bills of 3,800 euros and counting and considerably less peace of mind than she had when she entered the Kafkaesque bureaucracy around Britain's chaotic plans for a life after Brexit.

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    So it was her fuck up. What a surprise

    The best solution would be to let her re-apply w the correct details. Otherwise we could be one academic fellow studying British travel in the 17th century short!
    I'd forgotten that Leavers despise experts. With that in mind, she's lucky she's not being subjected to ordeal by fire.
    It is a sad indictment of Britain today that our kids have neither the drive nor the work ethic to go into the fields and pick the 'Travel and Self-Description in Seventeenth-Century English Culture'
    yeah we're better off without her and her foreign "enquiring mind".
    I am here as a resource to make people feel better about themselves, you are welcome.
    And to my second point?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2017
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    I was joking. You are virtue signalling. I don't want this lady deported, I was just sure there would be more to it than the initial outrageux indicated.

    How we Brexit is down to the elected government of the day, one that I didn't vote for.
    This is the core of Leavers' cognitive dissonance. You (not just you) say it's down to the government of the day, but I'm guessing you would cry blue murder if the government of the day said: we're staying in the single market.

    You can't have your cake and eat it, no matter what implement it is served upon.
    I have said on here, mainly in replies to you, at least half a dozen times, that I would have accepted Cameron's renegotiation as the initial departure strategy. I don't know why you wont believe me. I just wanted us out, and let the rest flow from there, however it may be. I don't have a strong opinion on the deal and wouldn't cry blue murder whatever it was, our job is done.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited August 2017

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    That too. The immigrants that are most put off are those that are most marketable and have choices about where they go.
    On that subject:

    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/employment/600-overseas-gps-to-be-recruited-for-english-practices-by-april/20035133.article

    And a campaign to recruit GPs from Australia? ROFL! there are 350 fewer GPs than 2015, despite Hunt's promised 5000 recruits.

    Lots of undergraduate medical school places in clearing too. Nearly all medical schools unable to fill their courses.

    Its almost as if our country is governed by incompetents...
    It's more chilling than that. They're ideologues.

    The aim is zero tax, zero state, zero regulation.

    Burn the state.
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    It's time for anyone who mocked the promise of 'global Britain' to eat humble pie.
    https://twitter.com/tkbeynon/status/900300471746912257

    Sad to say that this really sums you up
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    I loved presenting Sunday Politics, it was a privilege and honour to hold the political discourse up to the light for all those years and while I will miss it greatly I am delighted to continue to work for the BBC on This Week, Daily Politics and other projects.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/andrew-neil-steps-down-as-sunday-politics-host

    trans: "I want a lie-in and pub lunch (with the Sunday Roast served on a plate, obvs) like most of the rest of the country."
    I thought it was Carlotta Vance resigning!
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    In contrast:

    "Gordon Brown is not a popular figure among readers of the Daily Telegraph...Yet to his credit, Brown was also a man of big ideas, an attribute which seems sadly lacking in the mediocrity of today’s political landscape."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/08/22/britain-surely-doomed-doesnt-urgently-start-upping-investment/

    I'm puzzled by this comment. What big ideas did Brown have? I can't come up with any.

    H

    I do agree that no current politician has imagination or vision. But that was true in the 1950s and 1960s as well, or indeed the 1880s and 1890s. The bigger issue is that steady as she goes will hardly cut it now.
    He nationalised the banks. This helped resolve the banking crisis, here and in many other countries which followed the basic idea. He managed to persuade the other world leaders (including newly elected Barack Obama) that this was not just a solution, but the only one. He was right, and had he failed to persuade them, the consequences for us alll would have been much more severe,

    He was a crap PM, but this one idea stands to his eternal credit. And it certainly qualifies as a big one.
    Was it his idea though? How much input did the likes of Darling and Vadera have into it?

    True, it worked. But if he had forced the Treasury and the Bank of England to work together effectively in the previous five years on banking regulation, it might not have been necessary or at least not on such a scale.
    My post has been criticised from two contradictory viewpoints. You and Cyclefree say the policy was sound, but attribute it to others, notably Darling, and another poster who reckons it was a crap idea anyway.

    I think we can disregard the latter, but as regards you and Miss C I have to defer, except to the extent that it would have been difficult for the policy to be implemented without the active support of the PM. There's also the well-document accounts of Brown's active role at the G20 Summit which was taking place at the height of the crisis.
    "He didn't resist doing the obvious and necessary thing" isn't perhaps as great a recommendation as you seem to think.
  • Options

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    The peanut in your pocket has not been devalued.

    It still buys just as much when spent in the UK (on UK products and services).
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,221


    Genuine question, who funds her studies here? I presume she does so herself?

    She's a post-doc research fellow of the Academy of Finland.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,496
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    I loved presenting Sunday Politics, it was a privilege and honour to hold the political discourse up to the light for all those years and while I will miss it greatly I am delighted to continue to work for the BBC on This Week, Daily Politics and other projects.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/andrew-neil-steps-down-as-sunday-politics-host

    trans: "I want a lie-in and pub lunch (with the Sunday Roast served on a plate, obvs) like most of the rest of the country."
    I thought it was Carlotta Vance resigning!
    Misunderstanding 'Visiting Fellow' would be enough to shame the most hardened spin-merchant into taking a long break.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    I loved presenting Sunday Politics, it was a privilege and honour to hold the political discourse up to the light for all those years and while I will miss it greatly I am delighted to continue to work for the BBC on This Week, Daily Politics and other projects.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/aug/23/andrew-neil-steps-down-as-sunday-politics-host

    trans: "I want a lie-in and pub lunch (with the Sunday Roast served on a plate, obvs) like most of the rest of the country."
    I thought it was Carlotta Vance resigning!
    Misunderstanding 'Visiting Fellow' would be enough to shame the most hardened spin-merchant into taking a long break.
    Imagine the stick he'll get off the lads down the pub!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2017

    It's time for anyone who mocked the promise of 'global Britain' to eat humble pie.
    ://twitter.com/tkbeynon/status/900300471746912257

    Is the humble pie served in a collander or on a garden hose? if not then I am not interested.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,655
    edited August 2017

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    The peanut in your pocket has not been devalued.

    It still buys just as much when spent in the UK (on UK products and services).
    What about Leavers' totemic BMW?

    thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-4219778/New-car-prices-risen-5-cent-Brexit.html
  • Options
    geoffw said:


    Genuine question, who funds her studies here? I presume she does so herself?

    She's a post-doc research fellow of the Academy of Finland.

    Surely the underlying issue is why Helsinki Uni would pay for this research?
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    rkrkrk said:



    My post has been criticised from two contradictory viewpoints. You and Cyclefree say the policy was sound, but attribute it to others, notably Darling, and another poster who reckons it was a crap idea anyway.

    I think we can disregard the latter, but as regards you and Miss C I have to defer, except to the extent that it would have been difficult for the policy to be implemented without the active support of the PM. There's also the well-document accounts of Brown's active role at the G20 Summit which was taking place at the height of the crisis.

    Oh, and I readily concede that Brown's spending policies contributed to the problem, so to some extent he was guilty of encouraging the fire he later helped to put out. He contribution to the conflagration should not be overestimated however. The problem really did start in the USA, and the amount of dodgy debt knocking around at the time was colossal and dwarfed Brown's own profligacy.

    (The spivs in London Square Mile are of course not so easily exonerated but that's another story - It's well-documented in Silver's book The Signal and The Noise, if you are interested.)

    His conduct post-premiership also looks a lot better than what Tony Blair has been up to.

    Brown's spending is a complete red herring. His major failing was light touch bank regulation - he was hardly alone in that - but as a Labour politician he really should have known better.
    His major failing was believing his rhetoric about having abolished boom and bust.

    His second biggest failing was in bank regulation - not the amount as such, but that he heavily regulated all the wrong things.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    I was joking. You are virtue signalling. I don't want this lady deported, I was just sure there would be more to it than the initial outrageux indicated.

    How we Brexit is down to the elected government of the day, one that I didn't vote for.
    I am not virtue signalling. The issues are systemic. She is being deported because the UKBA is set up to make life difficult for foreigners
    Because that's the only measure of control they have when they have to be open to 300+ million people...
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,496

    It's time for anyone who mocked the promise of 'global Britain' to eat humble pie.
    https://twitter.com/tkbeynon/status/900300471746912257

    Sad to say that this really sums you up
    You don't think it's revealing that it's the finance deal from the government they're bigging up rather than the alleged contract?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-41011700

    "Our ability to offer finance from UK Export Finance in Mexican pesos was a significant benefit to our buyer, helping us win this major contract."

    Sounds like vendor financing underwritten by the UK government. Is the government going to get its money back?
  • Options

    rkrkrk said:



    My post has been criticised from two contradictory viewpoints. You and Cyclefree say the policy was sound, but attribute it to others, notably Darling, and another poster who reckons it was a crap idea anyway.

    I think we can disregard the latter, but as regards you and Miss C I have to defer, except to the extent that it would have been difficult for the policy to be implemented without the active support of the PM. There's also the well-document accounts of Brown's active role at the G20 Summit which was taking place at the height of the crisis.

    Oh, and I readily concede that Brown's spending policies contributed to the problem, so to some extent he was guilty of encouraging the fire he later helped to put out. He contribution to the conflagration should not be overestimated however. The problem really did start in the USA, and the amount of dodgy debt knocking around at the time was colossal and dwarfed Brown's own profligacy.

    (The spivs in London Square Mile are of course not so easily exonerated but that's another story - It's well-documented in Silver's book The Signal and The Noise, if you are interested.)

    His conduct post-premiership also looks a lot better than what Tony Blair has been up to.

    Brown's spending is a complete red herring. His major failing was light touch bank regulation - he was hardly alone in that - but as a Labour politician he really should have known better.
    His major failing was believing his rhetoric about having abolished boom and bust.

    His second biggest failing was in bank regulation - not the amount as such, but that he heavily regulated all the wrong things.
    And that he moved individual Bank regulation from the Bank of England to a new body (The FSA) which was incompetent, ignorant and responsible for the bank crash in the UK.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Pong said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    That too. The immigrants that are most put off are those that are most marketable and have choices about where they go.
    On that subject:

    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/employment/600-overseas-gps-to-be-recruited-for-english-practices-by-april/20035133.article

    And a campaign to recruit GPs from Australia? ROFL! there are 350 fewer GPs than 2015, despite Hunt's promised 5000 recruits.

    Lots of undergraduate medical school places in clearing too. Nearly all medical schools unable to fill their courses.

    Its almost as if our country is governed by incompetents...
    It's more chilling than that. They're ideologues.

    The aim is zero tax, zero state, zero regulation.

    Burn the state.
    [citation needed]
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    One by one, the brittle positions on Brexit set out by the Prime Minister over the past year are crumbling. No longer does any Cabinet minister repeat her mantra that “no deal is better than a bad deal”; no more does the Government pretend that European citizens won’t be able to move freely to the UK.

    It turns out that Britain’s initial salvos are far from unstoppable when confronted with the immovable objects of the EU’s negotiating discipline and the lack of a parliamentary majority. This is a welcome reality check on the rigid dogma that has infected too much Brexiteer talk and which soured the tone of the negotiations from the start.

    We see further evidence of that flexibility today as the Government publishes its ideas on the future judicial oversight of our on-going relationship with our European neighbours once we leave the EU. Back at last year’s Conservative Conference Theresa May claimed that Britain would no longer be subject to “supranational institutions that can override national parliaments and courts”. Today, her Government confirms that Britain will indeed subject itself to a supranational institution that can override our Parliament and our court in resolving disputes with the EU.


    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-a-brexit-reality-check-on-the-european-court-a3618091.html
  • Options
    AllanAllan Posts: 262
    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Daughter of long lamented Labour leader John, of course.
    1. Has a speech impediment.
    2. From a left wing Labour family.

    This will inevitably kill off the programme for many as worth watching.
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    The peanut in your pocket has not been devalued.

    It still buys just as much when spent in the UK (on UK products and services).
    Devaluation caused (RPI) inflation to rise from 0-1% to 3-4%/y. Hence butter up from 89p to £1.39 in a year and other slightly less dramatic rises.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,941
    Sandpit said:


    I always found it amusing that the original Eurostar trains went to London Waterloo station.

    I'm sure you didn't find it amusing to be sat on a Eurostar to Waterloo when following a delayed all stops train from Kent.

  • Options

    It's time for anyone who mocked the promise of 'global Britain' to eat humble pie.
    https://twitter.com/tkbeynon/status/900300471746912257

    Sad to say that this really sums you up
    You don't think it's revealing that it's the finance deal from the government they're bigging up rather than the alleged contract?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-41011700

    "Our ability to offer finance from UK Export Finance in Mexican pesos was a significant benefit to our buyer, helping us win this major contract."

    Sounds like vendor financing underwritten by the UK government. Is the government going to get its money back?
    It is at the least insuring vendor financing. The government will lose money on the insurance but hopes to make more from the various taxes raised from the extra business generated.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,496
    To all the people saying that US-Canada was a good model for the Irish border:
    https://twitter.com/campaignforleo/status/900073098032160770
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    In contrast:

    "Gordon Brown is not a popular figure among readers of the Daily Telegraph...Yet to his credit, Brown was also a man of big ideas, an attribute which seems sadly lacking in the mediocrity of today’s political landscape."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/08/22/britain-surely-doomed-doesnt-urgently-start-upping-investment/

    I'm puzzled by this comment. What big ideas did Brown have? I can't come up with any.

    H

    I do agree that no current politician has imagination or vision. But that was true in the 1950s and 1960s as well, or indeed the 1880s and 1890s. The bigger issue is that steady as she goes will hardly cut it now.
    He nationalised the banks. This helped resolve the banking crisis, here and in many other countries which followed the basic idea. He managed to persuade the other world leaders (including newly elected Barack Obama) that this was not just a solution, but the only one. He was right, and had he failed to persuade them, the consequences for us alll would have been much more severe,

    He was a crap PM, but this one idea stands to his eternal credit. And it certainly qualifies as a big one.
    Was it his idea though? How much input did the likes of Darling and Vadera have into it?

    True, it worked. But if he had forced the Treasury and the Bank of England to work together effectively in the previous five years on banking regulation, it might not have been necessary or at least not on such a scale.
    My post has been criticised from two contradictory viewpoints. You and Cyclefree say the policy was sound, but attribute it to others, notably Darling, and another poster who reckons it was a crap idea anyway.

    I think we can disregard the latter, but as regards you and Miss C I have to defer, except to the extent that it would have been difficult for the policy to be implemented without the active support of the PM. There's also the well-document accounts of Brown's active role at the G20 Summit which was taking place at the height of the crisis.
    "He didn't resist doing the obvious and necessary thing" isn't perhaps as great a recommendation as you seem to think.
    Note the word 'active' in the last sentence.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    And, tucked in at the end of the article, is the revelation that it's a non-story:

    A Home Office spokesman said Dr Holmberg’s letter should not have been sent, adding hers was not the only case.

    He said: “A limited number of letters were issued in error and we have been urgently looking into why this happened.

    "We are contacting everyone who received this letter to clarify that they can disregard it."


    Sorry, Alastair - this is an old-fashioned Home Office screw-up, not an example of Brexit over-enthusiasm.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,921

    geoffw said:


    Genuine question, who funds her studies here? I presume she does so herself?

    She's a post-doc research fellow of the Academy of Finland.

    Surely the underlying issue is why Helsinki Uni would pay for this research?
    Why not? Attitudes to travel in 17C England is valid historical research, and probably quite interesting.
  • Options

    Interesting article Alistair but I'm not sure I agree that hung parliaments will continue to be frequent in the future. One thing you need to take into account is the number of non-Con, non-Lab seats. I've had a look at this:

    Year Non C Non L seats % seats
    1970 12 1.9%
    Feb-74 37 5.8%
    Oct-74 39 6.1%
    1979 27 4.3%
    1983 44 6.8%
    1987 45 6.9%
    1992 44 6.8%
    1997 76 11.5%
    2001 80 12.1%
    2005 93 14.4%
    2010 86 13.2%
    2015 88 13.5%
    2017 71 10.9%

    Up to 1997 Con and Lab got over 93% of the seats combined so hung parliaments were rare. With the rise of the LDs and then the SNP the combined Con/Lab share has fallen below 90% increasing the window for hung parliaments.

    If as some people think the SNP decline further next time then we could easily be back to about 40-50 non-Con/non-Lab seats and with so many close marginals the window between Con maj 1 and Lab maj 1 could easily be very small.

    The window will probably (though not definitely) be narrower next time than this. But you also have to look at the marginality of the seats too. If the Conservatives can buck history and do better in their third election after taking power, they might get an overall majority quite easily. But Labour have a lot more work to do, as I note in the article.

    To mix metaphors, you need to think about the steepness of the slopes on either side as well as the width of the valley.
    I agree that we can't rule out a Con majority next time. We really can't rule out anything considering how unpredictable politics is right now.
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:


    Genuine question, who funds her studies here? I presume she does so herself?

    She's a post-doc research fellow of the Academy of Finland.

    Surely the underlying issue is why Helsinki Uni would pay for this research?
    Why not? Attitudes to travel in 17C England is valid historical research, and probably quite interesting.
    Why would Finland have this special interest though?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    And, tucked in at the end of the article, is the revelation that it's a non-story:

    A Home Office spokesman said Dr Holmberg’s letter should not have been sent, adding hers was not the only case.

    He said: “A limited number of letters were issued in error and we have been urgently looking into why this happened.

    "We are contacting everyone who received this letter to clarify that they can disregard it."


    Sorry, Alastair - this is an old-fashioned Home Office screw-up, not an example of Brexit over-enthusiasm.
    Though the opacity of the decision making is quite telling. No explanation or justification, just a deportation.

  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,952



    On that subject:

    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/employment/600-overseas-gps-to-be-recruited-for-english-practices-by-april/20035133.article

    And a campaign to recruit GPs from Australia? ROFL! there are 350 fewer GPs than 2015, despite Hunt's promised 5000 recruits.

    Lots of undergraduate medical school places in clearing too. Nearly all medical schools unable to fill their courses.

    Its almost as if our country is governed by incompetents...

    Do you think EU doctors and nurses will leave post-Brexit?
    There was a poll that suggested 4/10 were considering it... but I think it's a very difficult question to research... in practice many will have family ties etc. here - leaving won't be so easy/tempting.

    Surprised courses aren't being filled...
    My understanding is Hunt has backed down on forcing NHS trained doctors to stay for four years.

  • Options
    This is awful. How are victims still being abused to the point of suicide years after Rotherham was first reported on?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-41011888/rotherham-abuse-she-was-raped-by-six-men
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    Isn't it simply she made a mistake and the Home Office responded with a "computer says no" mentality. Worthy of criticism, yes, but any connection to Brexit is merely circumstantial
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,921
    edited August 2017

    And, tucked in at the end of the article, is the revelation that it's a non-story:

    A Home Office spokesman said Dr Holmberg’s letter should not have been sent, adding hers was not the only case.

    He said: “A limited number of letters were issued in error and we have been urgently looking into why this happened.

    "We are contacting everyone who received this letter to clarify that they can disregard it."


    Sorry, Alastair - this is an old-fashioned Home Office screw-up, not an example of Brexit over-enthusiasm.
    Actually it isn't. The Home Office screw up can be disregarded because she has rights accorded to her by EU treaty as well as recourse to the courts. After Brexit she won't under UK proposals. This one of the key Article 50 negotiating points.
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    This is awful. How are victims still being abused to the point of suicide years after Rotherham was first reported on?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-41011888/rotherham-abuse-she-was-raped-by-six-men

    Ask Naz Shah
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scott_P said:

    One by one, the brittle positions on Brexit set out by the Prime Minister over the past year are crumbling. No longer does any Cabinet minister repeat her mantra that “no deal is better than a bad deal”; no more does the Government pretend that European citizens won’t be able to move freely to the UK.

    It turns out that Britain’s initial salvos are far from unstoppable when confronted with the immovable objects of the EU’s negotiating discipline and the lack of a parliamentary majority. This is a welcome reality check on the rigid dogma that has infected too much Brexiteer talk and which soured the tone of the negotiations from the start.

    We see further evidence of that flexibility today as the Government publishes its ideas on the future judicial oversight of our on-going relationship with our European neighbours once we leave the EU. Back at last year’s Conservative Conference Theresa May claimed that Britain would no longer be subject to “supranational institutions that can override national parliaments and courts”. Today, her Government confirms that Britain will indeed subject itself to a supranational institution that can override our Parliament and our court in resolving disputes with the EU.


    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-a-brexit-reality-check-on-the-european-court-a3618091.html

    In the spirit of goodwill, may I ask: don't you think it would be more rigorous on your part not to use sources that are heavily biased to your own opinion? Reposting stories that show George Osborne and The Guardian don't like Brexit isn't really telling us anything, or giving your opinion any more weight
  • Options

    And, tucked in at the end of the article, is the revelation that it's a non-story:

    A Home Office spokesman said Dr Holmberg’s letter should not have been sent, adding hers was not the only case.

    He said: “A limited number of letters were issued in error and we have been urgently looking into why this happened.

    "We are contacting everyone who received this letter to clarify that they can disregard it."


    Sorry, Alastair - this is an old-fashioned Home Office screw-up, not an example of Brexit over-enthusiasm.
    It's Chapman syndrome. Those obsessively anti-Brexit channel everything they see into such a lens. It was like how someone on here the other day was blaming a fringe rightwing nutcase proposing voluntary repatriation as being down to Brexit. As if that has never happened before 2016. Nick Griffin anyone?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Though the opacity of the decision making is quite telling. No explanation or justification, just a deportation.

    My guess - purely a guess, but one which fits the facts - is that it used to be the case that almost no EU citizens applied for leave to remain. Therefore the official dealing with this assumed that failure to be granted the application automatically meant deportation, and didn't notice that she is an EU citizen. Just a straight cock-up, in other words.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2017

    And, tucked in at the end of the article, is the revelation that it's a non-story:

    A Home Office spokesman said Dr Holmberg’s letter should not have been sent, adding hers was not the only case.

    He said: “A limited number of letters were issued in error and we have been urgently looking into why this happened.

    "We are contacting everyone who received this letter to clarify that they can disregard it."


    Sorry, Alastair - this is an old-fashioned Home Office screw-up, not an example of Brexit over-enthusiasm.
    Nasty Amber Rudd, those Brexiteer swivel eyed loons are all the same. Bet she's a racist too, and so is her boyfriend probably
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,440

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    That too. The immigrants that are most put off are those that are most marketable and have choices about where they go.
    On that subject:

    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/employment/600-overseas-gps-to-be-recruited-for-english-practices-by-april/20035133.article

    And a campaign to recruit GPs from Australia? ROFL! there are 350 fewer GPs than 2015, despite Hunt's promised 5000 recruits.

    Lots of undergraduate medical school places in clearing too. Nearly all medical schools unable to fill their courses.

    Its almost as if our country is governed by incompetents...
    In the case of nurses though more training places are being provided to address the historic oversupply of applicants to places
  • Options

    To all the people saying that US-Canada was a good model for the Irish border:
    https://twitter.com/campaignforleo/status/900073098032160770

    It is a hard border along some stretches and a soft border along other stretches. Just as the UK-EU border can be a soft border along the stretch with Northern Ireland and a hard border across ports to the continent.

    I wonder why the Irish PM didn't visit these bits?

    https://cdnimg.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/international-borders-6-1__700.jpg?2bbdf3
    http://gephardtdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/canada-us-border.jpg
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    It's time for anyone who mocked the promise of 'global Britain' to eat humble pie.
    https://twitter.com/tkbeynon/status/900300471746912257

    Sad to say that this really sums you up
    You don't think it's revealing that it's the finance deal from the government they're bigging up rather than the alleged contract?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-41011700

    "Our ability to offer finance from UK Export Finance in Mexican pesos was a significant benefit to our buyer, helping us win this major contract."

    Sounds like vendor financing underwritten by the UK government. Is the government going to get its money back?
    A huge proportion of international trade from all countries is financed like this
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,921
    edited August 2017
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    Isn't it simply she made a mistake and the Home Office responded with a "computer says no" mentality. Worthy of criticism, yes, but any connection to Brexit is merely circumstantial
    I understand that she would be deported except for her absolute and now, thanks to Brexit, time limited right to stay in the UK under EU FoM rules.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,952

    And, tucked in at the end of the article, is the revelation that it's a non-story:

    A Home Office spokesman said Dr Holmberg’s letter should not have been sent, adding hers was not the only case.

    He said: “A limited number of letters were issued in error and we have been urgently looking into why this happened.

    "We are contacting everyone who received this letter to clarify that they can disregard it."


    Sorry, Alastair - this is an old-fashioned Home Office screw-up, not an example of Brexit over-enthusiasm.
    Yes - Home Office screw-up I think.
    We've had a few of these screw-ups before though - surely it can't be that hard to alter the system so that they do more thorough checks before sending out deportation notices?

    Apart from anything else - it generates terrible press. Amber Rudd needs to get a grip.

    Doesn't fill me with confidence for the considerable additional workload the Home Office will receive post-Brexit.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited August 2017
    If the Irish PM doesn't want a hard border, then he needs to address himself to persuading his EU colleagues of the obvious truth: that they need to get on with agreeing a comprehensive trade deal with the UK that will make such a border unnecessary. This really isn't hard to understand, especially since it will be the EU which will be insisting on the border checks.
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    CornishJohnCornishJohn Posts: 304
    edited August 2017
    Scott_P said:
    ..."where the dispute concerns EU law", and it could be referred to UK courts where the dispute will concern UK law. Europhiles are deliberately obscuring the truth to play politics. They are pretending moving to the normal functioning of international law between sovereign countries is European courts have special power over the UK. It's not true.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    isam said:

    FF43 said:

    geoffw said:

    re Holmberg deportation case:


    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_turku_stabbing_investigation_brexit_problems_and_johaugs_tears/9792490

    Btw if you try Google translate the Helsingin Sanomat article referred to earlier you'll be totally befuddled because Google translate cannot cope with the lack of a distinction between "he" and "she" in Finnish.

    In that case the UKBA is almost certainly acting unlawfully, even if acting according to their procedures. Ms Sanomat has an absolute right to residence under EU FoM rules. After Brexit she would have no guarantees or recourse to the courts under UK proposals even if she nominally had the rights to be here under treaty. These are significant issues.
    What we need is a strong advocate of Britain remaining in the EU at the Home Office
    You are deflecting. We are brexiting. We can choose to do that in an openminded, competent way or we can do it the way the government is doing it, urged on by certain Leavers. One thing I have learnt since the referendum is that you can get immigration numbers down by being unpleasant to would be immigrants. It isn't "control" in any meaningful sense but if you want to be closed rather than open, it works.
    We can also get immigration numbers down by trashing the pound, currently at an 8-year low against the euro aside from the flash crash last October. People aren't going to come if they can only earn peanuts.
    That too. The immigrants that are most put off are those that are most marketable and have choices about where they go.
    On that subject:

    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/employment/600-overseas-gps-to-be-recruited-for-english-practices-by-april/20035133.article

    And a campaign to recruit GPs from Australia? ROFL! there are 350 fewer GPs than 2015, despite Hunt's promised 5000 recruits.

    Lots of undergraduate medical school places in clearing too. Nearly all medical schools unable to fill their courses.

    Its almost as if our country is governed by incompetents...
    In the case of nurses though more training places are being provided to address the historic oversupply of applicants to places
    Plenty of those unfilled in clearing too, as well as 30 000 nursing vacancies nationwide.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,964

    Sorry, Alastair - this is an old-fashioned Home Office screw-up, not an example of Brexit over-enthusiasm.
    Sentence First! Verdict afterwards!

    Who needs the facts when its a good old bash the proles BREXIT story?

    Reading the Finnish lecturers tweets, I think its fair to say she has never been a fan of the current government - which of course is absolutely her right - though it might help explain the alacrity with which her, partial, side of the story has been disseminated....
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    rkrkrk said:

    Yes - Home Office screw-up I think.
    We've had a few of these screw-ups before though - surely it can't be that hard to alter the system so that they do more thorough checks before sending out deportation notices?

    Apart from anything else - it generates terrible press. Amber Rudd needs to get a grip.

    Doesn't fill me with confidence for the considerable additional workload the Home Office will receive post-Brexit.

    Yes, you are right.
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    Scott_P said:
    Don't worry, Mrs May will disown that soon too.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    ..."where the dispute concerns EU law", and it could be referred to UK courts where the dispute will concern UK law. Europhiles are deliberately obscuring the truth to play politics. They are pretending moving to the normal functioning of international law between sovereign countries is European courts have special power over the UK. It's not true.

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/900317593600499713
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,496

    If the Irish PM doesn't want a hard border, then he needs to address himself to persuading his EU colleagues of the obvious truth: that they need to get on with agreeing a comprehensive trade deal with the UK that will make such a border unnecessary. This really isn't hard to understand, especially since it will be the EU which will be insisting on the border checks.

    Does Canada not have a comprehensive trade deal with the US of the kind you are suggesting the EU needs to give us? Yet they still have a hard border.

    Clearly this is needs a political solution and it is unrelated to trade discussions. It really isn't hard to understand...
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    If the Irish PM doesn't want a hard border, then he needs to address himself to persuading his EU colleagues of the obvious truth: that they need to get on with agreeing a comprehensive trade deal with the UK that will make such a border unnecessary. This really isn't hard to understand, especially since it will be the EU which will be insisting on the border checks.

    Does Canada not have a comprehensive trade deal with the US of the kind you are suggesting the EU needs to give us? Yet they still have a hard border.

    Clearly this is needs a political solution and it is unrelated to trade discussions. It really isn't hard to understand...
    I think that NAFTA falls a long way short of Customs Union or Single Market.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,964
    Latest position paper:

    67. There is no precedent, and indeed no imperative driven by EU, UK or international law, which demands that enforcement or dispute resolution of future UK-EU agreements falls under the direct jurisdiction of the CJEU.

    68. The precedents examined in this paper demonstrate that there are a number of additional means by which the EU has entered into agreements which offer assurance of effective enforcement and dispute resolution and, where appropriate, avoidance of divergence, without necessitating the direct jurisdiction of the CJEU over a third party. Such an arrangement, whereby the highest court of one party would act as the means of enforcing or interpreting an agreement between the two parties, would be exceptional in international agreements.

    69. The UK will therefore engage constructively to negotiate an approach to enforcement and dispute resolution which meets the key objectives of both the UK and the EU in underpinning the effective operation of a new, deep and special partnership.


    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/639609/Enforcement_and_dispute_resolution.pdf
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    If the Irish PM doesn't want a hard border, then he needs to address himself to persuading his EU colleagues of the obvious truth: that they need to get on with agreeing a comprehensive trade deal with the UK that will make such a border unnecessary. This really isn't hard to understand, especially since it will be the EU which will be insisting on the border checks.

    Does Canada not have a comprehensive trade deal with the US of the kind you are suggesting the EU needs to give us? Yet they still have a hard border.

    Clearly this is needs a political solution and it is unrelated to trade discussions. It really isn't hard to understand...
    Of course it need a political solution: the EU27 need to stop this absurd and irrational pretence that anything substantial can be agreed on exit arrangements and the border, without agreeing first on what we are exiting to.
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    Scott_P said:

    ..."where the dispute concerns EU law", and it could be referred to UK courts where the dispute will concern UK law. Europhiles are deliberately obscuring the truth to play politics. They are pretending moving to the normal functioning of international law between sovereign countries is European courts have special power over the UK. It's not true.

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/900317593600499713
    Yes, that's exactly what I said. Where an agreement has been made in EU law, obviously EU law and EU courts should govern it. Just as agreements and contracts made under American law or Japanese law would be ultimately arbitrated by American and Japanese courts.
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