I blame the University of Oxford for all this nonsense and their acquiescence to the Rhodes must fall nonsense.
How does removing a statue change history TSE?
It defines the boundaries of what is acceptable history or not. And when you do that you end up shutting down debate and discussion.
Plenty of human history doesn't measure up to today's standards. But, it's shaped who we are today, and it's important it's in the public eye, debated and not forgotten.
That's plainly not so.
Do we need statues of Hitler to ensure is legacy is understood?
To my knowledge there are no statues of William the Conqueror in this country but his impact on our country is still taught, studied and debated.
Think of a Confederate statue, in a town that doesn't want it
Are we sure the town doesn't want it, though? If you're still polling 62% - 27% in favour of keeping the statues (66% -23% in the South, and 44%-40% even among African Americans), then perhaps the town doesn't mind the statue any more than the majority of Oxford minds the statue of Rhodes.
Charlottesville voted 79% Democrat in 2016. It was by democratic decision of the council to remove the statue. It would be in order for a different administration to alter the policy, but should be accepted as it stands.
Big step back from 'the town doesn't want it' to 'the council doesn't want it'. Unfortunately, it wasn't a manifesto commitment and the city council basically ignored the results of their own public consultation. Said consultation offered the public two options: leave the statue in place, or move it to an unspecified location in Mcintire Park. Three public meetings found broadly equal support for both propositions. Subsequently, by a vote of 3-2, the council decided to remove the statue completely from Charlottesville instead.
Have you read that document? I don't think it says what you think it does.
Which UK Prime Minister in conjunction with a mass murderer invaded a middle eastern country, toppled their leader, because the UK PM wanted to secure that country's oil for the UK?
The answer is not Tony Blair.
Lloyd George? Iraq (Mosul oil) with al-Hasheem (not sure of the spelling but Faisal and abdullah's Dad)
On topic, how on earth did the Conservatives get so close in Lanark and Hamilton? That's like running close in Bootle.
Three way marginal.
I think their was always a Conservative vote in rural south Lanarckshire but it was split and overwhelmed by East Kilbride and Hamilton. Lanark constituency was Conservative in the 1950s as I remember.
So rather more like a former mining constituency in NE England than Bootle.
Big step back from 'the town doesn't want it' to 'the council doesn't want it'. Unfortunately, it wasn't a manifesto commitment and the city council basically ignored the results of their own public consultation. Said consultation offered the public two options: leave the statue in place, or move it to an unspecified location in Mcintire Park. Three public meetings found broadly equal support for both propositions. Subsequently, by a vote of 3-2, the council decided to remove the statue completely from Charlottesville instead.
Have you read that document? I don't think it says what you think it does.
Yes, thank you.
'The commission therefore considered multiple options, including removal entirely from public view. After months of presentations, public comment, and discussion, two primary options for the Lee sculpture emerged as the best ways of meeting our charge. These included 1) moving the sculpture to McIntire Park and confronting its history there in a new context; or 2) confronting the sculpture in place by redesigning/transforming Lee Park.' (p.7)
'Approximately 150 people attended the first forum... Members of the public spoke for and against removing the Lee and Jackson statues, although a preponderance of speakers recommended retaining the monuments and adding new interpretive information that re-contextualizes them for contemporary times... The second public forum took place at Buford Middle School... Members of the public focused primarily on the disposition of the Lee and Jackson sculpture and spoke equally in favor of removing the sculpture and retaining the sculpture. The third and final public forum took place at Walker Elementary School... Most speakers focused their comments on the recommendations related to the statues, with a large majority speaking in favor of moving the statues.' (pp.22-3)
'Charlottesville City Council voted to sell the Robert E. Lee statue and remove it from downtown Charlottesville Monday night... Council voted to move forward with selling the statue through a process called "request for bid." That means it will ask for bids from different educational institutions, museums or non-profits and then pick where it goes.'
OK here is a document linked to from the wikipedia page on Paul Goodloe McIntire who commissioned the statue. It is from the US National Parks Service, which is probably not a KKK front, and it gives a lucid and credible account of how the City Beautiful movement in the US in the early C20th required the erection of large figurative statues to, as the name suggests, beautify cities, and how this results in McIntire in collusion with the National Sculpture Society (again, not cover for a group of klansmen) commissioning the 4 statues including that of Lee. If you want figurative statues they are generally historical, and the three historical things which had happened in the US at that date were War of Independence, Civil War and Winning the West, and those were therefore the sources of the statues.
@619 has asserted that the statues were not commissioned for historical reasons, but when I asked him to expand the claim his internet connection obviously went down. Don't you hate it when that happens?
Re that salad importing business which has shut down discussed in the previous thread.
Its a natural feature of free markets that weak businesses should lose out to better ones ie ones which offer products at a lower price or higher quality or with better service.
Now what was that company's business model ? Selling imported salad to supermarkets.
Well there's no shortage of salad products in the supermarkets I shop at. So they're obviously being supplied by other companies. Companies which are likely to better than the one which has shut down.
But of course its always easier for failed businesses to blame something else rather than their own deficiencies.
On topic, how on earth did the Conservatives get so close in Lanark and Hamilton? That's like running close in Bootle.
Three way marginal.
I think their was always a Conservative vote in rural south Lanarckshire but it was split and overwhelmed by East Kilbride and Hamilton. Lanark constituency was Conservative in the 1950s as I remember.
So rather more like a former mining constituency in NE England than Bootle.
given we cant have a sane debate on a far away country I struggle to see how one closer to home will be more rational
The parallel closer to home is Orange Order marches. A venerable cultural tradition in some contexts, but when following "traditional parade routes" that are intimidating to Catholic communities, more problematic. Many of these confrontations are deliberately constructed to demonstrate hegemony over minority communities, and rub their faces in continuing grievances.
Think of a Confederate statue, in a town that doesn't want it, in the same context as disputed marches and you may understand the passions. Indeed the Scots and Scots-Irish have a heritage in the Confederacy and KKK for similar Orangist reasons.
The non-Scots Irish too. John Mitchel, the Irish Nationalist leader, was a fervent propagandist for slavery in the 1850's, and two of his sons died fighting for the Confederacy. He viewed the cause of Confederate as being similar to the cause of Irish freedom.
' Initially intended to express anger at the draft, the protests turned into a race riot, with white rioters, predominantly Irish immigrants, attacking blacks throughout the city. The official death toll was listed at either 119 or 120 individuals. Conditions in the city were such that Major General John E. Wool, commander of the Department of the East, said on July 16 that "Martial law ought to be proclaimed, but I have not a sufficient force to enforce it."
The military did not reach the city until after the first day of rioting, by which time the mobs, primarily ethnic Irish, had already ransacked or destroyed numerous public buildings, two Protestant churches, the homes of various abolitionists or sympathizers, many black homes, and the Colored Orphan Asylum at 44th Street and Fifth Avenue, which was burned to the ground.
The area's demographics changed as a result of the riot. Many blacks left Manhattan permanently (many moving to Brooklyn). By 1865 their population fell below 10,000, the number in 1820. '
Ironically, it is possible to argue that Lee did more than most to end slavery. His superb command led a hitherto reluctant North to declare total war, emancipate the slaves and utterly destroy the Southern economic system.
It is also possible to argue without the utterly inadequate system of FPTP and the Electoral College, it may not have come to that!
The 1863 Emancipification proclomation has an interesting quirk. It Emancipates slaves only in Confederate controlled areas. Slaves in Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland and occupied parts of the Confederacy such as New Orleons were not freed until after the war ended in 1865. Presumably this was so as to get the bill through the legislature.
I did a lot of Civil War history at High School in Atlanta in the Seventies.
No no no. It was justified as a war measure by Lincoln so it could only apply to the states in rebellion. As President he did not consider he had the power to impose emancipation to loyal states.
(Returns to passive mode)
Not sure thay I buy that, as it also did not apply to areas like New Orleans and the Mississippi Delta which most definitely not loyal, but were under occupation.
A pragmatic approach possibly, but no more than that.
He has just tweeted about how the us 100 years ago used to round up Islamic terrorists, dip bullets in pigs blood and then shot all but one....And that sorted out the problem...
He has just tweeted about how the us 100 years ago used to round up Islamic terrorists, dip bullets in pigs blood and then shot all but one....And that sorted out the problem...
I blame the University of Oxford for all this nonsense and their acquiescence to the Rhodes must fall nonsense.
How does removing a statue change history TSE?
It defines the boundaries of what is acceptable history or not. And when you do that you end up shutting down debate and discussion.
Plenty of human history doesn't measure up to today's standards. But, it's shaped who we are today, and it's important it's in the public eye, debated and not forgotten.
That's plainly not so.
Do we need statues of Hitler to ensure is legacy is understood?
To my knowledge there are no statues of William the Conqueror in this country but his impact on our country is still taught, studied and debated.
Interesting clip isam - quite shocking actually. Thanks for posting it.
I'm not sure how it relates to the statue debate though?
Because we shouldn't judge people from the past by the standards of today. We are probably all doing stuff that will go down in history as bad (Eating animals maybe?)
He has just tweeted about how the us 100 years ago used to round up Islamic terrorists, dip bullets in pigs blood and then shot all but one....And that sorted out the problem...
Why are you watching England when Yorkshire are on course to break a world record.
I would say because I only watch proper cricket...But then I am watching a load of club cricketers running up with a pink ball in a supposed test match.
Interesting that swings under 3% would give 5 more Tories , 7 more Labour and 1 more LD
No that is wrong - a 3% swing would take SNP seats with a majority less than 6% which implies 12 Labour gains and 5 for the Tories. In practice,however, one of the potential Tory gains - Lanark & Hamilton East - would almost certainly fall to Labour so giving them 13 gains.
The SNP are the Tory party's little helpers as history has shown.
The SNP voted against Labour in the 1979 vote of no confidence which helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule and Thatcherism
you in fantasy land as usual
So do you deny the SNP voted against Labour in the 1979 Vote of No Confidence?
Just the bollox that they ushered in the Tories, their vote was miniscule, the country and labour voted in the Tories. They did the right thing and it certainly was not to put the nasties in power.
The SNP are the Tory party's little helpers as history has shown.
The SNP voted against Labour in the 1979 vote of no confidence which helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule and Thatcherism
you in fantasy land as usual
So do you deny the SNP voted against Labour in the 1979 Vote of No Confidence?
I don't think the SNP would vote with the Tories or abstain.
The trick is to get either DUP or rebel Tories to get the no confidence vote through. That is going to take some doing. Possibly the Irish border issue, or maybe some black swan.
The SNP are the Tory party's little helpers as history has shown.
The SNP voted against Labour in the 1979 vote of no confidence which helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule and Thatcherism
you in fantasy land as usual
So do you deny the SNP voted against Labour in the 1979 Vote of No Confidence?
Just the bollox that they ushered in the Tories, their vote was miniscule, the country and labour voted in the Tories. They did the right thing and it certainly was not to put the nasties in power.
Labour lost by just one vote. The SNP had 6 MPs if I recall correctly.
Politically, the SNP's voters would not like the SNP refusing to vote against a vote of no confidence against a Tory government. That would make them lose votes to the Lib Dems and Labour to an even larger degree at the 2020 election
Quite so - I don't think the SNP would have much choice in reality!
Lol...CNN without skipping a heartbeat going from outrage after repeating a debunked story as true, to now outrage at trump repeating the same debunked story.
The SNP are the Tory party's little helpers as history has shown.
The SNP voted against Labour in the 1979 vote of no confidence which helped usher in 18 years of Tory rule and Thatcherism
you in fantasy land as usual
So do you deny the SNP voted against Labour in the 1979 Vote of No Confidence?
Just the bollox that they ushered in the Tories, their vote was miniscule, the country and labour voted in the Tories. They did the right thing and it certainly was not to put the nasties in power.
Labour lost by just one vote. The SNP had 6 MPs if I recall correctly.
It only brought forward the GE by a few months though did add to the atmosphere of chaos. Callaghan not going in Oct 78 when he was ahead is perhaps the polar opposite to Theresa May's early election, but equally catastrophic for their parties. Damned if you do...
Not a lot of upside for the Conservatives in that list. They are likely to lose as many seats to Labour as they win off the SNP, as the Unionist tactical vote unwinds and Labour becomes more credible as winners of seats. 15 to 30 seats for Labour is entirely doable.
Not especially likely at all. Not a single Tory seat where Labour are anywhere near them. You'd need a landslide performance to achieve that and current polling [ yes, I know] suggests no such thing.
But several of the Tory gains were due to Labour voters voting tactically to defeat the SNP and doing so unaware of the Labour surge taking place in the later stages of the campaign. Most of them are likely to feel they misdirected themselves with the result that next time Labour could win from third place in seats such as East Renfrew , Stirling etc where Labour's vote share could well jump from circa 20% to circa 35%.
I am not sure why it should debar anyone. A dual national is not a half-national. Boris Johnson was until recently a US citizen as well as a UK citizen. He could well have been the UK PM.
I am not sure why it should debar anyone. A dual national is not a half-national. Boris Johnson was until recently a US citizen as well as a UK citizen. He could well have been the UK PM.
I understand the reasoning for dual citizens being potentially problematic, at least in direct relations between two nations where the interests might be opposed, but Australia's rule seems unduly harsh, particularly when it seems nationality law in many nations grants citizenship to many people with peripheral connection to their nation, or can be asked for on their behalf without their knowledge by someone else.
Oh God, I've just remembered what General Pershing's nickname used to be, and why.
Trump's going to go there isn't he?
Blackjack?
The one before that.
It used to be 'N*gger Jack'
Oh giddy me....
In 1897, Pershing was appointed to the West Point tactical staff as an instructor, where he was assigned to Cadet Company A. Because of his strictness and rigidity, Pershing was unpopular with the cadets, who took to calling him "Nigger Jack" because of his service with the 10th Cavalry Regiment, a now famous unit formed as a segregated African-American unit and one of the original "Buffalo Soldier" regiments.[14][15][16]
During the course of his tour at the Academy, this epithet softened to "Black Jack," although, according to Vandiver, "the intent remained hostile."[14] Still, this nickname would stick with Pershing for the rest of his life, and was known to the public as early as 1917.[17]
Comments
https://twitter.com/quimforn/status/898247698951929856
I'm not sure how it relates to the statue debate though?
I think their was always a Conservative vote in rural south Lanarckshire but it was split and overwhelmed by East Kilbride and Hamilton. Lanark constituency was Conservative in the 1950s as I remember.
So rather more like a former mining constituency in NE England than Bootle.
'The commission therefore considered multiple options, including removal entirely from public view. After months of presentations, public comment, and discussion, two primary options for the Lee sculpture emerged as the best ways of meeting our charge. These included 1) moving the sculpture to McIntire Park and confronting its history there in a new context; or 2) confronting the sculpture in place by redesigning/transforming Lee Park.' (p.7)
'Approximately 150 people attended the first forum... Members of the public spoke for and against removing the Lee and Jackson statues, although a preponderance of speakers recommended retaining the monuments and adding new interpretive information that re-contextualizes them for contemporary times... The second public forum took place at Buford Middle School... Members of the public focused primarily on the disposition of the Lee and Jackson sculpture and spoke equally in favor of removing the sculpture and retaining the sculpture. The third and final public forum took place at Walker Elementary School... Most speakers focused their comments on the recommendations related to the statues, with a large majority speaking in favor of moving the statues.' (pp.22-3)
For the council's ultimate decision:
'Charlottesville City Council voted to sell the Robert E. Lee statue and remove it from downtown Charlottesville Monday night... Council voted to move forward with selling the statue through a process called "request for bid." That means it will ask for bids from different educational institutions, museums or non-profits and then pick where it goes.'
https://npgallery.nps.gov/pdfhost/docs/NRHP/Text/64500682.pdf
@619 has asserted that the statues were not commissioned for historical reasons, but when I asked him to expand the claim his internet connection obviously went down. Don't you hate it when that happens?
Its a natural feature of free markets that weak businesses should lose out to better ones ie ones which offer products at a lower price or higher quality or with better service.
Now what was that company's business model ? Selling imported salad to supermarkets.
Well there's no shortage of salad products in the supermarkets I shop at. So they're obviously being supplied by other companies. Companies which are likely to better than the one which has shut down.
But of course its always easier for failed businesses to blame something else rather than their own deficiencies.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/details-details-donald-trump-has-plaque-at-his-golf-course-commemorating-civil-war-battle-that-never-happened/amp
The military did not reach the city until after the first day of rioting, by which time the mobs, primarily ethnic Irish, had already ransacked or destroyed numerous public buildings, two Protestant churches, the homes of various abolitionists or sympathizers, many black homes, and the Colored Orphan Asylum at 44th Street and Fifth Avenue, which was burned to the ground.
The area's demographics changed as a result of the riot. Many blacks left Manhattan permanently (many moving to Brooklyn). By 1865 their population fell below 10,000, the number in 1820. '
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots
A pragmatic approach possibly, but no more than that.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.asp
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/08/17/students-abandon-new-tougher-a-level-subjects-droves-figures/
We could declare this time tomorrow and still somehow conspire to screw it up!
That said: 1.12 Eng, 1/8 in old money.
Yorkshire are 249/1 off 18
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8548000/8548911.stm
The trick is to get either DUP or rebel Tories to get the no confidence vote through. That is going to take some doing. Possibly the Irish border issue, or maybe some black swan.
Separately local reports said a suspect had been shot dead by police.
It remains unclear how many people were involved in the attack.
https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/898121262169559040
Told you that 46 was value
I watched the video closely, more closely than you and I know there are many good people among them....
Edit: a minute later it's now 18 to lay. Taken half back and let the other half run.
Anyway, they are back now...
Oh.
Anybody know what General Pershing did?
Donald Trump fell for fake news. Sad.
So many possibilities...
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/23/donald-trump/donald-trump-cites-dubious-legend-about-gen-pershi/
Trump's going to go there isn't he?
It used to be 'N*gger Jack'
During the course of his tour at the Academy, this epithet softened to "Black Jack," although, according to Vandiver, "the intent remained hostile."[14] Still, this nickname would stick with Pershing for the rest of his life, and was known to the public as early as 1917.[17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._Pershing#West_Point_instructor