The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
I'll clarify my stance.
I was campaigning to Leave the EU when the odds were stacked heavily against us, even as the polls closed I was resigned to defeat. On here and elsewhere many times I was called xenophobic, racist, Little Englander etc etc, with zero justification.
I am absolutely delighted we are leaving, the undemocratic response from some on here confirms the undemocratic nature of the EU, the evidence is everywhere. Yeah from time to time I'm bolshe, I make no apologies, but I also don't fabricate evidence or call people thick or incompetent for daring to disagree. I've received a hundred times more abuse than I've dished out.
The Germans call it schadenfreude, I'm enjoying the wailing from the press and the sycophants on here.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
I just understand that leaving the single market and customs union will cause significant harm to the UK and its citizens. I have been to lots of countries in Asia, including Singapore. Not one is currently seeking to make life harder for itself by making trade with its biggest export market harder and more expensive.
There is something very unedifying about watching children cry when they've had their toys removed, some on here really need to grow up, its pathetic.
When some kids realise that their favourite toy (Brexit)
- doesn't look like the packaging on the box - contains toxic materials - is irretrievably broken - isn't as good as the toys everyone else in the EU has
the tears before bedtime will be epic
Surely you realise that the more scathing and hilarious you are about Leavers, the more your audience thinks "and you managed to *lose* to this bunch of bozos?"
To save you time, I'll reply for you: Yebbutbusexperts.
The main reason T May lost her majority was the manifesto and the appalling presentation thereof. The care side of things and the removal of the Winter fuel Allowance sealed her fate. Crass in the extreme. Just claimed my allowance for the first time!. Thank Nick Timothy et al!!!.
It could have been worse, SR.
If you look at the chart of polls in the weeks leading up to the Election, Labour was advancing fast and showed no sign of stopping. I know loyalists like yourself on here kept telling us that they had peaked, but there was no evidence of it. I reckon another week and Labour would have taken the lead, Corbyn would have been PM.
Btw, do you know what happened to Black Rook? He posted regularly and at great length before the election but I haven't noticed him since. I hope he's ok, but fear he lost a lot of money and has done a Stuart Truth as a result.
Any news of him would be appreciated.
Even this week a BMG poll has the Tories ahead
The Election is over, HUYFD. Looking at the polls now is a bit like looking at the horses after they've passed the post and been pulled up. Doesn't matter. Race is over.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
This interim EU deal... I don't really understand it - it feels though as if it is just buying more time to deal with tricky customs issues.
Presumably the Brexiteers in Cabinet have accepted it - so hopefully they can convince those outside of Cabinet. That the UK is moving to a united position of what we want is surely a good sign.
It's gloss. The aim is to keep in with the EU forever because it makes no sense to have a different customs regime. So the UK will move from the free customs that comes with membership of the EU to a formal but supposedly temporary customs union that replicates membership arrangements to an eventual "shared approach". This allows the government to claim they can do independent trade deals with third countries as a supposed benefit of Brexit.
It's a threadbare attempt to maintain the Brexit delusion for a while longer but it is useless as an ostensible position paper. These are reasons why the negotiations are going so crap for us.
It is gloss. Brexit is turning into a flounce.
If an extended customs union is so good, then why not stay in indefinitely?
The truth is that our cabinet is implementing a bad idea incompetently. Those that are competent do not believe in Brexit, and those that do believe are not competent.
Because - and "duh" - we can't do trade deals with the rest of the world when we are inside the customs union. This offer is a way to simplify the non customs union arrangements once we do leave.
Can't see the EU going for it mind you as it's too forward thinking.
The most important FTA we do will be with the EU, which now takes 50% of our exports. That FTA will then affect the FTAs we can do with other countries.
This gets interesting.
What % of EU countries account for that 50%? How dependent are we on trade with Malta?
It is utterly ridiculous that Malta has the same voting power ie 1 in 27, as Germany.
Also, "now takes 50%" hides the fact that the share is falling. "Now takes only 50%" would be more accurate.
Mr. Borough, that divergence might be a reaction to the 'other' side and leaping in the opposite direction.
In a study from the late 80s/early 90s, homophobes were asked about giving equal rights (next of kin status etc) to gay people. Obviously, they opposed. But, when told gay people didn't want those rights, the homophobes shifted in the direction of approving the additional rights.
The responses were based on disagreeing with gay people *not* on the actual question being asked. The same thing happens quite often with other polls and surveys, I think.
Also, the sorts of Democrats who agreed with the statement, in the past, now vote Republican, in places like the Mid-West and Appalachia.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
Yeah, that has been my position. We are going to have a hard Brexit and need proper preparations for it, but it seems even our government doesnt believe in Brexit so they are unwilling to prepare.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
Forgive me for joining in this conversation, but I can understand both positions.
Your suggestion was exactly the position I intended to take after June 23rd last year. But I have found many who are used to winning totally unaccepting of the fact that they lost (not including you here, btw) so unbelievably annoying, and unwilling to accept that their views were rejected by the public, that I've been forced to back up my position. Forced to argue not merely from democratic principles, but refight the battles of the referendum on a regular basis.
There are only so many times you can be called bigoted, moronic and stupid by people who lost a political debate before you rightly begin defending yourself.
There are two things here. There was a zero sum referendum that Leave won and Remain lost. There is the reality of Brexit, which is an intractable mess with no winners or losers. The referendum is over and done with. We're just dealing with the mess.
There is something very unedifying about watching children cry when they've had their toys removed, some on here really need to grow up, its pathetic.
When some kids realise that their favourite toy (Brexit)
- doesn't look like the packaging on the box - contains toxic materials - is irretrievably broken - isn't as good as the toys everyone else in the EU has
the tears before bedtime will be epic
Surely you realise that the more scathing and hilarious you are about Leavers, the more your audience thinks "and you managed to *lose* to this bunch of bozos?"
To save you time, I'll reply for you: Yebbutbusexperts.
Perhaps I'm reaching, but one might almost think that British voters were unhappy with the EU's direction of travel and record.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
I'll clarify my stance.
I was campaigning to Leave the EU when the odds were stacked heavily against us, even as the polls closed I was resigned to defeat. On here and elsewhere many times I was called xenophobic, racist, Little Englander etc etc, with zero justification.
I am absolutely delighted we are leaving, the undemocratic response from some on here confirms the undemocratic nature of the EU, the evidence is everywhere. Yeah from time to time I'm bolshe, I make no apologies, but I also don't fabricate evidence or call people thick or incompetent for daring to disagree. I've received a hundred times more abuse than I've dished out.
The Germans call it schadenfreude, I'm enjoying the wailing from the press and the sycophants on here.
Lol! Then enjoy. It will at least be one palpable benefit of Brexit, for you anyway.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
I just understand that leaving the single market and customs union will cause significant harm to the UK and its citizens. I have been to lots of countries in Asia, including Singapore. Not one is currently seeking to make life harder for itself by making trade with its biggest export market harder and more expensive.
It won't cause significant harm at all, somewhere in the recess of your mind you must accept that Project Fear is dead.
You are regressive, inward looking, resigned to the status quo of mediocrity.
We need to put a sign on the White Cliffs of Dover saying simply:
We want to trade with everybody.
There is absolutely no need or point in paying to belong to a political union where we have the same rights as Malta. I actually believe you get that but your position is too entrenched.
The main reason T May lost her majority was the manifesto and the appalling presentation thereof. The care side of things and the removal of the Winter fuel Allowance sealed her fate. Crass in the extreme. Just claimed my allowance for the first time!. Thank Nick Timothy et al!!!.
It could have been worse, SR.
If you look at the chart of polls in the weeks leading up to the Election, Labour was advancing fast and showed no sign of stopping. I know loyalists like yourself on here kept telling us that they had peaked, but there was no evidence of it. I reckon another week and Labour would have taken the lead, Corbyn would have been PM.
Btw, do you know what happened to Black Rook? He posted regularly and at great length before the election but I haven't noticed him since. I hope he's ok, but fear he lost a lot of money and has done a Stuart Truth as a result.
Any news of him would be appreciated.
Even this week a BMG poll has the Tories ahead
BMG gave the Tories a 13 point lead in their final poll before the election...
On different methodology.
Since the election the govt have pursued a 'don't scare the horses' policy - trying to negotiate Brexit and talking about consumer protections for various things are all that have really been announced. It is no surprise that Tory share has held and their position improved.
Good. A period of light touch, little change domestic policy is what we need until Brexit occurs, the Corbasm fades and politics returns to a grown up level of debate.
Their previous methodology was also corrected, to account for their previous polling mistakes. Until it can be practically tested we won't know whether they can hit a barn door or not yet.
"He told the audience: ‘I promised you today we’d either have Theresa May or Nicola Sturgeon, or Ruth Davidson or Melania Trump, but I couldn’t make any of these wonderful women come...’
After an on-stage band hit a ‘bud-dum’ on the drums, he added ‘...to the show’. "
Neither particularly funny nor sexist. The most amusing thing is the manufactured cranking up of the outrage charabanc.
Silly comment. She had a majority and didn't need to call the election three years early - an obvious massive risk anyway because of what other leaders who've taken the same gamble have found in he past.
She stated her aim was to increase her majority. As it turned out she ended with no majority at all. In the process she exposed herself as a crap politician with an amazing inability to relate to people.
The main reason T May lost her majority was the manifesto and the appalling presentation thereof. The care side of things and the removal of the Winter fuel Allowance sealed her fate. Crass in the extreme. Just claimed my allowance for the first time!. Thank Nick Timothy et al!!!.
It could have been worse, SR.
If you look at the chart of polls in the weeks leading up to the Election, Labour was advancing fast and showed no sign of stopping. I know loyalists like yourself on here kept telling us that they had peaked, but there was no evidence of it. I reckon another week and Labour would have taken the lead, Corbyn would have been PM.
Btw, do you know what happened to Black Rook? He posted regularly and at great length before the election but I haven't noticed him since. I hope he's ok, but fear he lost a lot of money and has done a Stuart Truth as a result.
Any news of him would be appreciated.
Even this week a BMG poll has the Tories ahead
The Election is over, HUYFD. Looking at the polls now is a bit like looking at the horses after they've passed the post and been pulled up. Doesn't matter. Race is over.
True but it does confirm the next general election is wide open, neither side can say with any certainty they will win
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
Isn't a huge part of that because *the referendum is over*. The campaign is over. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Nigel Farage and co. were bleating on about a second referendum we wouldn't go out of our way to placate them.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
Isn't a huge part of that because *the referendum is over*. The campaign is over. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Nigel Farage and co. were bleating on about a second referendum we wouldn't go out of our way to placate them.
Normally a policy becomes more popular once it has been passed. Brexit has not. It appears that xenophobic campaigns followed by a chaotic start to negotiations has not inspired further converts.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
I just understand that leaving the single market and customs union will cause significant harm to the UK and its citizens. I have been to lots of countries in Asia, including Singapore. Not one is currently seeking to make life harder for itself by making trade with its biggest export market harder and more expensive.
It won't cause significant harm at all, somewhere in the recess of your mind you must accept that Project Fear is dead.
You are regressive, inward looking, resigned to the status quo of mediocrity.
We need to put a sign on the White Cliffs of Dover saying simply:
We want to trade with everybody.
There is absolutely no need or point in paying to belong to a political union where we have the same rights as Malta. I actually believe you get that but your position is too entrenched.
We can already trade with everybody. It's not the EU's fault that other EU countries do it much better than us. The trick is to offer goods and services of a quality and at a price others want to buy. The EU doesn't prevent this happening, it's down to decisions made by British businesses.
We will just have to disagree on the harm making it more expensive and time consuming to trade with our biggest export market, while making the UK a less attractive investment location, will cause.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem. Also, with the possible exception of David Davis, none of the prominent Leavers are investing in Brexit and trying to make it work.
Mr. P, ultimately, the choice is separation or integration. Would you prefer the latter?
The execution of the referendum result, so far, has varied between mostly lacklustre and incompetent (although the EU do appear to be quite cretinous on citizens' rights and imposing EU law on certain people in the UK). That doesn't mean the policy is wrong, just the execution.
The alternative is staying in an EU that inexorably moves towards greater integration, whittling away vetoes and gathering powers in Brussels.
If and it's a big if that was where we ended up what difference would it make to Joe Public. Decisions made in Brussels or London to which the average voter has no influence. Yes we have General Elections but most votes are irrelevant in our wonderful system where in 500 or more they end up voting for the donkey with the right colour rosette.
"He told the audience: ‘I promised you today we’d either have Theresa May or Nicola Sturgeon, or Ruth Davidson or Melania Trump, but I couldn’t make any of these wonderful women come...’
After an on-stage band hit a ‘bud-dum’ on the drums, he added ‘...to the show’. "
Neither particularly funny nor sexist. The most amusing thing is the manufactured cranking up of the outrage charabanc.
That's a shame for his show. I think Alex Salmond a charlatan but he can be very charming and amusing.
"The US government is seeking to unmask every person who visited an anti-Trump website in what privacy advocates say is an unconstitutional “fishing expedition” for political dissidents.
The warrant appears to be an escalation of the department of justice’s campaign against anti-Trump activities, including the harsh prosecution of inauguration day protesters."
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
The main reason T May lost her majority was the manifesto and the appalling presentation thereof. The care side of things and the removal of the Winter fuel Allowance sealed her fate. Crass in the extreme. Just claimed my allowance for the first time!. Thank Nick Timothy et al!!!.
It could have been worse, SR.
If you look at the chart of polls in the weeks leading up to the Election, Labour was advancing fast and showed no sign of stopping. I know loyalists like yourself on here kept telling us that they had peaked, but there was no evidence of it. I reckon another week and Labour would have taken the lead, Corbyn would have been PM.
Btw, do you know what happened to Black Rook? He posted regularly and at great length before the election but I haven't noticed him since. I hope he's ok, but fear he lost a lot of money and has done a Stuart Truth as a result.
Any news of him would be appreciated.
Even this week a BMG poll has the Tories ahead
The Election is over, HUYFD. Looking at the polls now is a bit like looking at the horses after they've passed the post and been pulled up. Doesn't matter. Race is over.
True but it does confirm the next general election is wide open, neither side can say with any certainty they will win
After what happened earlier this year, I wouldn't be excited over the polls mirroring your point of view
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
Forgive me for joining in this conversation, but I can understand both positions.
Your suggestion was exactly the position I intended to take after June 23rd last year. But I have found many who are used to winning totally unaccepting of the fact that they lost (not including you here, btw) so unbelievably annoying, and unwilling to accept that their views were rejected by the public, that I've been forced to back up my position. Forced to argue not merely from democratic principles, but refight the battles of the referendum on a regular basis.
There are only so many times you can be called bigoted, moronic and stupid by people who lost a political debate before you rightly begin defending yourself.
Nah don't over-dramatise.
We said the UK would be diminished, would suffer economically, and that those least able to afford it would suffer most; we marvelled at the lack of confidence of Brexiters who didn't think the UK was strong enough to hold its own in the EU and to help shape its future in a way we wanted; and wondered at the short-sightedness of those who mistook participation in international markets and the concomitant collaboration and cooperation, for giving up sovereignty.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
We're not going to become Singapore under any scenario. Self-harming won't make it more likely. It just distracts us from from dealing with our real problems.
Surely you realise that the more scathing and hilarious you are about Leavers, the more your audience thinks "and you managed to *lose* to this bunch of bozos?"
The point you seem determined to miss is that losing the referendum to this bunch or liars, charlatans and dimwits doesn't make Brexit any more right.
It's a disaster, sold by tricksters and delivered by idiots.
It should be no surprise I am not willing to join the cheering crowds just yet...
Of course, according to PB's dimmer cohort, the Hungarian man would deserve to be run over for counter-protesting ...
Foolish. If they want an anti-Nazi film they'd be better off with One of our Aircraft is Missing or the Life and Death of Colonel Blimp. Or if they really cannot bear admitting that there is life outside Hollywood, Hitchcock's Saboteur.
Why not bring those Walt Disney shorts out? I always found Education for Death very useful in teaching about Nazism.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
Not the kind of society I would want to be in. I mean with your user name I would have thought it the last place you would want to live.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
What do you think has happened in the last year since the vile xenophobic campaign that you think should have changed my mind?
I'm not sure why you characterise me as "continuity Remainer". From the moment the referendum was lost, it has been my view that hard Brexit is inevitable and should not be opposed by Remain supporters. It's a moral disaster but that's democracy.
What was not inevitable but is now becoming more likely is chaotic no-deal Brexit.
Mr. rkrkrk, that sounds alarming, to be honest. People should be allowed to visit (legal) websites without fear their identity will be discovered and/or revealed.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
We're not going to become Singapore under any scenario. Self-harming won't make it more likely. It just distracts us from from dealing with our real problems.
Oh yes I agree, but I'm countering those on here that are against free trade.
I've called it an aspiration not something likely to happen. Geographically Malta and Singapore are a similar size, that is where the similarities end even though seem on here appear to think we'll all starve to death if we stop paying to trade with the good folk of Valetta and Gozo.
Of course, according to PB's dimmer cohort, the Hungarian man would deserve to be run over for counter-protesting ...
Foolish. If they want an anti-Nazi film they'd be better off with One of our Aircraft is Missing or the Life and Death of Colonel Blimp. Or if they really cannot bear admitting that there is life outside Hollywood, Hitchcock's Saboteur.
Why not bring those Walt Disney shorts out? I always found Education for Death very useful in teaching about Nazism.
I guess this isn't a concerted, organised campaign, but more a viral thing. Anyway, I found it effective and to the point.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
It's not the minority of Remainers but almost all of them. If it were a minority, the consensus for Brexit would be there after the vote. Alastair is right. The unwillingness or inability of Leavers to win over public opinion and make Brexit a success is undermining their cause.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
Not the kind of society I would want to be in. I mean with your user name I would have thought it the last place you would want to live.
Really? I'm a law abiding citizen that harms nobody, I enjoyed walking the streets late at night on spotlessly clean pavements. I'm comfortable with them executing drug dealers, for example.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
Not the kind of society I would want to be in. I mean with your user name I would have thought it the last place you would want to live.
Really? I'm a law abiding citizen that harms nobody, I enjoyed walking the streets late at night on spotlessly clean pavements. I'm comfortable with them executing drug dealers, for example.
Have you been to Singapore?
Many times and let's just say that Confucianism, nanny state control isn't my idea of utopia.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
Not the kind of society I would want to be in. I mean with your user name I would have thought it the last place you would want to live.
Really? I'm a law abiding citizen that harms nobody, I enjoyed walking the streets late at night on spotlessly clean pavements. I'm comfortable with them executing drug dealers, for example.
Have you been to Singapore?
Many times and let's just say that Confucianism, nanny state control isn't my idea of utopia.
"It has become routine to say that our politics are so febrile that predictions are worthless; yet I predict with absolute confidence that, wherever we are vis-à-vis Europe in March 2019, we will be so heartily sick of the Conservatives, disaffected from so many angles, disappointed on such reasonable grounds, impoverished in so many ways, that the last days of John Major will look like a honeymoon."
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
We're not going to become Singapore under any scenario. Self-harming won't make it more likely. It just distracts us from from dealing with our real problems.
Oh yes I agree, but I'm countering those on here that are against free trade.
I've called it an aspiration not something likely to happen. Geographically Malta and Singapore are a similar size, that is where the similarities end even though seem on here appear to think we'll all starve to death if we stop paying to trade with the good folk of Valetta and Gozo.
More likely it’ll be more difficult to go and visit the good folk etc on holiday. I do wonder whether the big picture ..... Customs Union etc will get sorted, but the problems will be with the peripherals....flying rules, passports checks on holiday and so on. And whether our tourist trade will suffer when we have the sort of long queues at immigration for tourists currently being complained about in Thailand.
Isn't a huge part of that because *the referendum is over*. The campaign is over. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Nigel Farage and co. were bleating on about a second referendum we wouldn't go out of our way to placate them.
Normally a policy becomes more popular once it has been passed. Brexit has not. It appears that xenophobic campaigns followed by a chaotic start to negotiations has not inspired further converts.
Sure, it's all a bit depressing. I'm not a convert at all, but do agree with the hackneyed old 'I accept the results of the referendum'. Maybe the amount of people come to this position balances out the Leavers who've changed their minds, I don't know.
Our elected politicians of all parties were saying in the HoC before the referendum that the result would be carried out, there would be no second referendum, etc. Ideally they should certainly have designed the referendum better, with each answer leading to a clear series of actions in a clear legal framework. With hindsight people who were Remainers (Cameron especially) shouldn't have spent the previous years going on about Europe and building up to an unnecessary referendum.
But our MPs can't very well just decide to have a second referendum, having themselves designed and voted through the first. I've enough friends and family who voted Leave, with the clear understanding that there wouldn't be a second referendum and their decision was final, to want to start shifting the goalposts after the fact.
Sometimes I wonder if OGH puts these threads up to start a fight in an empty room as out come the usual suspects saying the same things they say every single day. Ho hum...
I was out and about yesterday and I heard President Trump's comments on my way home and was, to he honest, impressed. They were fine words which could have been said by any American President with conviction.
When I got to see him speak those words and especially the comment about how he spoke them (and this was on the BBC), it was much less impressive. As others may have remarked, for those who follow body language, Trump yesterday wasn't the Trump we've seen on previous outings.
I do wonder if we're seeing the first manifestation of the rise of John F. Kelly who presumably had a big say in what was said. It may also mean some changes in Trump's rhetoric toward North Korea in the coming days. Given the widespread condemnation of Trump's previous comments on events in Charlottesville (which did sound Corbyn-esque in all honesty), I imagine the clamour for a more forthright response from the mainstream GOP had percolated through to Kelly and he (and others) had been fairly blunt toward Trump and told him what to say.
Mr. P, ultimately, the choice is separation or integration. Would you prefer the latter?
The execution of the referendum result, so far, has varied between mostly lacklustre and incompetent (although the EU do appear to be quite cretinous on citizens' rights and imposing EU law on certain people in the UK). That doesn't mean the policy is wrong, just the execution.
The alternative is staying in an EU that inexorably moves towards greater integration, whittling away vetoes and gathering powers in Brussels.
If and it's a big if that was where we ended up what difference would it make to Joe Public. Decisions made in Brussels or London to which the average voter has no influence. Yes we have General Elections but most votes are irrelevant in our wonderful system where in 500 or more they end up voting for the donkey with the right colour rosette.
Joe Public thought it does matter. That's why 33 m of them voted.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
We're not going to become Singapore under any scenario. Self-harming won't make it more likely. It just distracts us from from dealing with our real problems.
Oh yes I agree, but I'm countering those on here that are against free trade.
I've called it an aspiration not something likely to happen. Geographically Malta and Singapore are a similar size, that is where the similarities end even though seem on here appear to think we'll all starve to death if we stop paying to trade with the good folk of Valetta and Gozo.
More likely it’ll be more difficult to go and visit the good folk etc on holiday. I do wonder whether the big picture ..... Customs Union etc will get sorted, but the problems will be with the peripherals....flying rules, passports checks on holiday and so on. And whether our tourist trade will suffer when we have the sort of long queues at immigration for tourists currently being complained about in Thailand.
I want to press you on this because this is the biggest (I'll be polite) misconception of Remainers. What do you mean by:
More likely it’ll be more difficult to go and visit the good folk etc on holiday.
Please explain, logically, why Spain would want to stop us spending money there,
But our MPs can't very well just decide to have a second referendum, having themselves designed and voted through the first. I've enough friends and family who voted Leave, with the clear understanding that there wouldn't be a second referendum and their decision was final, to want to start shifting the goalposts after the fact.
Do you think Brexit is deliverable in a way that won't cause irreparable damage?
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
We're not going to become Singapore under any scenario. Self-harming won't make it more likely. It just distracts us from from dealing with our real problems.
Oh yes I agree, but I'm countering those on here that are against free trade.
I've called it an aspiration not something likely to happen. Geographically Malta and Singapore are a similar size, that is where the similarities end even though seem on here appear to think we'll all starve to death if we stop paying to trade with the good folk of Valetta and Gozo.
More likely it’ll be more difficult to go and visit the good folk etc on holiday. I do wonder whether the big picture ..... Customs Union etc will get sorted, but the problems will be with the peripherals....flying rules, passports checks on holiday and so on. And whether our tourist trade will suffer when we have the sort of long queues at immigration for tourists currently being complained about in Thailand.
I want to press you on this because this is the biggest (I'll be polite) misconception of Remainers. What do you mean by:
More likely it’ll be more difficult to go and visit the good folk etc on holiday.
Please explain, logically, why Spain would want to stop us spending money there,
If you take the current situation of reasonably frictionless borders, then any greater administrative obstacle or burden will shift the demand curve to the left.
Given some of the reporting - '29% of Remain voters want EU Citizens deported' (sic) - worth reading the report:
While there appear to be few aspects of the negotiations that Leave and Remain voters demand at all cost or reject at all cost, there are aspects of the negotiations that are very important to them. Leave voters are particularly concerned about control over immigration and opposed to deals that give Britain less than “full control” over immigration. They are similarly concerned about legal sovereignty and any “divorce bill”. They also strongly prefer scenarios where EU citizens are able to apply for residence more than scenarios where all must leave. Remain voters care much more about the rights of EU citizens – indeed, no other aspect of the negotiations appears to matter more to them. They also agree with Leave voters that trade terms with fewer barriers and lower tariffs than a “no deal” scenario would bring are preferable to a hard break from the common market. Yet, ultimately, citizens are indifferent about many aspects of Brexit.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
We're not going to become Singapore under any scenario. Self-harming won't make it more likely. It just distracts us from from dealing with our real problems.
Oh yes I agree, but I'm countering those on here that are against free trade.
I've called it an aspiration not something likely to happen. Geographically Malta and Singapore are a similar size, that is where the similarities end even though seem on here appear to think we'll all starve to death if we stop paying to trade with the good folk of Valetta and Gozo.
More likely it’ll be more difficult to go and visit the good folk etc on holiday. I do wonder whether the big picture ..... Customs Union etc will get sorted, but the problems will be with the peripherals....flying rules, passports checks on holiday and so on. And whether our tourist trade will suffer when we have the sort of long queues at immigration for tourists currently being complained about in Thailand.
I want to press you on this because this is the biggest (I'll be polite) misconception of Remainers. What do you mean by:
More likely it’ll be more difficult to go and visit the good folk etc on holiday.
Please explain, logically, why Spain would want to stop us spending money there,
Note the words used; more difficult. Not prevent. Agree that Spain will still want tourists, although the devalued £ will mean the our tourists will spend less. Will we, for example, get more and more complaints about about long queues at immigration and tourists be put off as a result? Will mobile phone companies re-introduce roaming charges? Probably not, but there’ll be no-one to stop them. And, as yet, no-one has convonced me that Easyjet and Ryanair are simply crying wolf.
But our MPs can't very well just decide to have a second referendum, having themselves designed and voted through the first. I've enough friends and family who voted Leave, with the clear understanding that there wouldn't be a second referendum and their decision was final, to want to start shifting the goalposts after the fact.
Do you think Brexit is deliverable in a way that won't cause irreparable damage?
I think we're heading for damage either way, but irreparable is too strong imo.
If we got a second referendum, given the many statements in the HoC that 2016 would be final, it would only boost the justified cynicism people have about politics and damage democracy. We might lose that second referendum anyway, imagine the chaos then! And if not, all the underlying factors which fed antiEU and broader anti-establishment feeling are still there, ready for some other cause.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
Not the kind of society I would want to be in. I mean with your user name I would have thought it the last place you would want to live.
Really? I'm a law abiding citizen that harms nobody, I enjoyed walking the streets late at night on spotlessly clean pavements. I'm comfortable with them executing drug dealers, for example.
Have you been to Singapore?
Many times and let's just say that Confucianism, nanny state control isn't my idea of utopia.
Singapore's achievements are impressive but it is a theme park scaled up. I stopped off for half an hour once while I changed planes and felt I had seen the place. They are also not quite as committed to free trade as they make out. The Singapore port authority, aka the government, has been aggressively underhand in stopping Malaysia taking on some of its lucrative entrepot trade.
Given some of the reporting - '29% of Remain voters want EU Citizens deported' (sic) - worth reading the report:
While there appear to be few aspects of the negotiations that Leave and Remain voters demand at all cost or reject at all cost, there are aspects of the negotiations that are very important to them. Leave voters are particularly concerned about control over immigration and opposed to deals that give Britain less than “full control” over immigration. They are similarly concerned about legal sovereignty and any “divorce bill”. They also strongly prefer scenarios where EU citizens are able to apply for residence more than scenarios where all must leave. Remain voters care much more about the rights of EU citizens – indeed, no other aspect of the negotiations appears to matter more to them. They also agree with Leave voters that trade terms with fewer barriers and lower tariffs than a “no deal” scenario would bring are preferable to a hard break from the common market. Yet, ultimately, citizens are indifferent about many aspects of Brexit.
It is possibly the worst-reported opinion poll this year. It would be nice to see some of the papers that so woefully misreported it correct themselves, but I expect we'll have a long wait for that.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
It's not the minority of Remainers but almost all of them. If it were a minority, the consensus for Brexit would be there after the vote. Alastair is right.
Typically high 70s in polls accepting that the result needs to be implemented.
Yet, ultimately, citizens are indifferent about many aspects of Brexit.
A point I made when the study came out. In particular both Leavers and Remainers wouldn't be particularly bothered if we were still in the EU in 2025. Do you really think delivering such a profoundly disruptive change in the face of apathy and complacency from the public is going to have a good outcome for the government doing it?
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
Have you visited Singapore? Is that what you want the UK to become?
Yes I have, I certainly think its a model we should aspire to.
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
Not the kind of society I would want to be in. I mean with your user name I would have thought it the last place you would want to live.
Really? I'm a law abiding citizen that harms nobody, I enjoyed walking the streets late at night on spotlessly clean pavements. I'm comfortable with them executing drug dealers, for example.
Have you been to Singapore?
Like a hot Switzerland, extremely boring, safe and eye wateringly expensive
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
(...)
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
Forgive me for joining in this conversation, but I can understand both positions.
Your suggestion was exactly the position I intended to take after June 23rd last year. But I have found many who are used to winning totally unaccepting of the fact that they lost (not including you here, btw) so unbelievably annoying, and unwilling to accept that their views were rejected by the public, that I've been forced to back up my position. Forced to argue not merely from democratic principles, but refight the battles of the referendum on a regular basis.
There are only so many times you can be called bigoted, moronic and stupid by people who lost a political debate before you rightly begin defending yourself.
I didn't actually vote because I thought both sides' arguments were so poor as to be unworthy of support. Post-vote I agree with some of the points made by both sides. But what grates with me are the assertions from Remainers to the effect that the country is now disastrously divided (a Google search for "brexit country divided" yields 785,000 hits). Presumably if it had been 52:48 the other way, the country would not have been divided, and Remainers would have told Leavers the matter was now settled to everyone's complete agreement so shut up.
In practice, hyperbolic formulations like "disastrously divided" or similar just mean "my side lost, and I want to reproach the winning scum for their wicked, stupid and selfish victory".
{snip}...building up to an unnecessary referendum. {/snip}
What are your criteria to split a 'necessary' from an 'unnecessary' referendum?
My point was that, for all the antiEU feeling, it took years of Cameron posing for internal Tory reasons to create the mood for it etc. Tory Remainers spent years boosting their antiEU faction unnecessarily.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
It's not the minority of Remainers but almost all of them. If it were a minority, the consensus for Brexit would be there after the vote. Alastair is right.
Typically high 70s in polls accepting that the result needs to be implemented.
That 70%+ includes me. Democracy must be respected and we must leave the EU. No-one has made a coherent and convincing policy out of that single word, leave. Tellingly they haven't bothered to try.
Given some of the reporting - '29% of Remain voters want EU Citizens deported' (sic) - worth reading the report:
While there appear to be few aspects of the negotiations that Leave and Remain voters demand at all cost or reject at all cost, there are aspects of the negotiations that are very important to them. Leave voters are particularly concerned about control over immigration and opposed to deals that give Britain less than “full control” over immigration. They are similarly concerned about legal sovereignty and any “divorce bill”. They also strongly prefer scenarios where EU citizens are able to apply for residence more than scenarios where all must leave. Remain voters care much more about the rights of EU citizens – indeed, no other aspect of the negotiations appears to matter more to them. They also agree with Leave voters that trade terms with fewer barriers and lower tariffs than a “no deal” scenario would bring are preferable to a hard break from the common market. Yet, ultimately, citizens are indifferent about many aspects of Brexit.
It is possibly the worst-reported opinion poll this year. It would be nice to see some of the papers that so woefully misreported it correct themselves, but I expect we'll have a long wait for that.
The Indie actually did - and fessed up to misunderstanding the impact of the non-standard methodology:
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
It's not the minority of Remainers but almost all of them. If it were a minority, the consensus for Brexit would be there after the vote. Alastair is right.
Typically high 70s in polls accepting that the result needs to be implemented.
That 70%+ includes me. Democracy must be respected and we must leave the EU. No-one has made a coherent and convincing policy out of that single word, leave. Tellingly they haven't bothered to try.
Yep - it's not as if there have been numerous speeches, position papers, interviews and parliamentary discussions about it.
Remainers are not listening if they don't know what Leave means yet.
Just because someone thinks Brexit is a clusterfuck doesn't mean they don't accept the result. That's like saying nobody should speak up in favour of Corbyn because May won the election (sort of).
That would be....er....a bit childish?
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
It's not the minority of Remainers but almost all of them. If it were a minority, the consensus for Brexit would be there after the vote. Alastair is right.
Typically high 70s in polls accepting that the result needs to be implemented.
That 70%+ includes me. Democracy must be respected and we must leave the EU. No-one has made a coherent and convincing policy out of that single word, leave. Tellingly they haven't bothered to try.
Could have fooled me.
I'll put you in the same group with Fox who not believes that everything you read in the Remainstream media is both totally accurate and complete.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
It's not the minority of Remainers but almost all of them. If it were a minority, the consensus for Brexit would be there after the vote. Alastair is right.
Typically high 70s in polls accepting that the result needs to be implemented.
That 70%+ includes me. Democracy must be respected and we must leave the EU. No-one has made a coherent and convincing policy out of that single word, leave. Tellingly they haven't bothered to try.
Yep - it's not as if there have been numerous speeches, position papers, interviews and parliamentary discussions about it.
Remainers are not listening if they don't know what Leave means yet.
Leave the EU, stay in customs union, single market.
This is the problem, you have indoctrinated yourself with the EU and refuse to acknowledge that free trading places around the world are flourishing - I believe you've visited Singapore.
You are backward looking and regressive.
I just understand that leaving the single market and customs union will cause significant harm to the UK and its citizens. I have been to lots of countries in Asia, including Singapore. Not one is currently seeking to make life harder for itself by making trade with its biggest export market harder and more expensive.
Surely the comparison is inexact, Mr. Observer.
In 2016 Australia had the following trade deficits by country:
Supposing a condition of Australia's being allowed to continue her trade deficit with Thailand was to implement Thai law in Australia. Would Australians agree to that?
Enter the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU. A salesperson approaches...
S. "Good morning, Sir. How may I help you today?"
DD. "I would like to buy a car."
S. "Certainly. Do you know what colour you would like?"
DD. "Yes, but I am not going to tell you. I need some constructive ambiguity in the negotiation"
Several hours pass. Exit DD, without a car...
And more importantly the salesman has no commission.
You getting it yet? He can buy a car anywhere.
It's you who isn't getting it. Our relationship with our own continent is indispensable for our economic and physical security and we cannot 'buy it' anywhere other than through dealing with the EU. When David Davis finally gets around to listing his requirements, the salesman will have to say, "What you need is 'membership', sir. It's got everything you want!"
Enter the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU. A salesperson approaches...
S. "Good morning, Sir. How may I help you today?"
DD. "I would like to buy a car."
S. "Certainly. Do you know what colour you would like?"
DD. "Yes, but I am not going to tell you. I need some constructive ambiguity in the negotiation"
Several hours pass. Exit DD, without a car...
And more importantly the salesman has no commission.
You getting it yet? He can buy a car anywhere.
It's you who isn't getting it. Our relationship with our own continent is indispensable for our economic and physical security and we cannot 'buy it' anywhere other than through dealing with the EU. When David Davis finally gets around to listing his requirements, the salesman will have to say, "What you need is 'membership', sir. It's got everything you want!"
More nonsense.
There are countries on "our own continent" that are doing perfectly well without being in the EU.
Anyway, conversing with you is becoming increasingly tedious and pointless, life is far too short to engage with flat earthers.
The Brexiteers who have been telling us for years that the EU is incompetent, bureaucratic, sclerotic, slow, backwards, and anti-UK, are now telling us they will implement, just for us, a brand new technologically advanced frictionless border immediately.
That's your view, to which you're entitled, if you wish to take offence at anything I've posted go ahead. None was intended but I'm not fussed either way.
No offence taken, Free, but if I'd voted Leave (and I thought about it) and was sure I'd got it right, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with Diehards who won't accept the result. I would just sit back and let events unfold. As they see the benefits Brexit brings, they will either change their views, or (more likely) appear increasingly foolish as their denial becomes increasingly untenable.
If you will forgive me, your posts tend to suggest a degree of insecurity, as if you were perhaps unsure that Brexit really was a smart idea after all.
Sorry, but that's the way you come across.
That, however, leads onto another point. Since the referendum, Leavers have conspicuously failed to persuade Remainers to their cause. They seem oddly uninterested in why that might be. It's almost as if it hasn't worked out as they'd expected.
That's the key problem.
Given that a minority of vocal continuity Remainers, like Meeks, refuse to even try to be open to persuasion, how can it be a surprise?
It's not the minority of Remainers but almost all of them. If it were a minority, the consensus for Brexit would be there after the vote. Alastair is right.
That 70%+ includes me. Democracy must be respected and we must leave the EU. No-one has made a coherent and convincing policy out of that single word, leave. Tellingly they haven't bothered to try.
Yep - it's not as if there have been numerous speeches, position papers, interviews and parliamentary discussions about it.
Remainers are not listening if they don't know what Leave means yet.
Leave the EU, stay in customs union, single market.
Enter the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU. A salesperson approaches...
S. "Good morning, Sir. How may I help you today?"
DD. "I would like to buy a car."
S. "Certainly. Do you know what colour you would like?"
DD. "Yes, but I am not going to tell you. I need some constructive ambiguity in the negotiation"
Several hours pass. Exit DD, without a car...
And more importantly the salesman has no commission.
You getting it yet? He can buy a car anywhere.
It's you who isn't getting it. Our relationship with our own continent is indispensable for our economic and physical security and we cannot 'buy it' anywhere other than through dealing with the EU. When David Davis finally gets around to listing his requirements, the salesman will have to say, "What you need is 'membership', sir. It's got everything you want!"
More nonsense.
There are countries on "our own continent" that are doing perfectly well without being in the EU.
Without being in the EU and without having deep relations with the EU?
Enter the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU. A salesperson approaches...
S. "Good morning, Sir. How may I help you today?"
DD. "I would like to buy a car."
S. "Certainly. Do you know what colour you would like?"
DD. "Yes, but I am not going to tell you. I need some constructive ambiguity in the negotiation"
Several hours pass. Exit DD, without a car...
And more importantly the salesman has no commission.
You getting it yet? He can buy a car anywhere.
It's you who isn't getting it. Our relationship with our own continent is indispensable for our economic and physical security and we cannot 'buy it' anywhere other than through dealing with the EU. When David Davis finally gets around to listing his requirements, the salesman will have to say, "What you need is 'membership', sir. It's got everything you want!"
If and it's a big if that was where we ended up what difference would it make to Joe Public. Decisions made in Brussels or London to which the average voter has no influence. Yes we have General Elections but most votes are irrelevant in our wonderful system where in 500 or more they end up voting for the donkey with the right colour rosette.
Joe Public thought it does matter. That's why 33 m of them voted.
They voted largely on the basis of who was offering the best bribes. Obviously Labour at the last general election. The same as they voted in the EU Referendum. You remember, 350 million a week for the NHS...
The Tories did as well as they did on the grounds that they weren`t Corbyn.
But does anybody seriously think that Corbyn`s gang would be more competent than the present shambles?
Christ on a bike, is this bloke Remoan's best hope?
Yes Chapman is. He is attacking and insulting so many politicians and media people across the parties that he will end up with very few friends. The worst approach to Public Relations.
Comments
I was campaigning to Leave the EU when the odds were stacked heavily against us, even as the polls closed I was resigned to defeat. On here and elsewhere many times I was called xenophobic, racist, Little Englander etc etc, with zero justification.
I am absolutely delighted we are leaving, the undemocratic response from some on here confirms the undemocratic nature of the EU, the evidence is everywhere. Yeah from time to time I'm bolshe, I make no apologies, but I also don't fabricate evidence or call people thick or incompetent for daring to disagree. I've received a hundred times more abuse than I've dished out.
The Germans call it schadenfreude, I'm enjoying the wailing from the press and the sycophants on here.
To save you time, I'll reply for you: Yebbutbusexperts.
- I am pursuing a policy of constructive ambiguity
- You are working with over-optimistic assumptions
- He hasn't got a clue
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/897363968552914944
You are regressive, inward looking, resigned to the status quo of mediocrity.
We need to put a sign on the White Cliffs of Dover saying simply:
We want to trade with everybody.
There is absolutely no need or point in paying to belong to a political union where we have the same rights as Malta. I actually believe you get that but your position is too entrenched.
After an on-stage band hit a ‘bud-dum’ on the drums, he added ‘...to the show’. "
Neither particularly funny nor sexist. The most amusing thing is the manufactured cranking up of the outrage charabanc.
She stated her aim was to increase her majority. As it turned out she ended with no majority at all. In the process she exposed herself as a crap politician with an amazing inability to relate to people.
https://twitter.com/AmanTsays/status/896719007159644162
We will just have to disagree on the harm making it more expensive and time consuming to trade with our biggest export market, while making the UK a less attractive investment location, will cause.
"The US government is seeking to unmask every person who visited an anti-Trump website in what privacy advocates say is an unconstitutional “fishing expedition” for political dissidents.
The warrant appears to be an escalation of the department of justice’s campaign against anti-Trump activities, including the harsh prosecution of inauguration day protesters."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/14/donald-trump-inauguration-protest-website-search-warrant-dreamhost
Hard to know what to make of it really...
Low unemployment, low tax, very low crime rates, spotlessly clean, a racecourse, bit hot for football but ho hum.
'Wide open' is... optimistic.
We said the UK would be diminished, would suffer economically, and that those least able to afford it would suffer most; we marvelled at the lack of confidence of Brexiters who didn't think the UK was strong enough to hold its own in the EU and to help shape its future in a way we wanted; and wondered at the short-sightedness of those who mistook participation in international markets and the concomitant collaboration and cooperation, for giving up sovereignty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-40929513/us-1940s-anti-nazi-film-makes-comeback
Of course, according to PB's dimmer cohort, the Hungarian man would deserve to be run over for counter-protesting ...
It's a disaster, sold by tricksters and delivered by idiots.
It should be no surprise I am not willing to join the cheering crowds just yet...
Why not bring those Walt Disney shorts out? I always found Education for Death very useful in teaching about Nazism.
I'm not sure why you characterise me as "continuity Remainer". From the moment the referendum was lost, it has been my view that hard Brexit is inevitable and should not be opposed by Remain supporters. It's a moral disaster but that's democracy.
What was not inevitable but is now becoming more likely is chaotic no-deal Brexit.
Mr. rkrkrk, that sounds alarming, to be honest. People should be allowed to visit (legal) websites without fear their identity will be discovered and/or revealed.
I've called it an aspiration not something likely to happen. Geographically Malta and Singapore are a similar size, that is where the similarities end even though seem on here appear to think we'll all starve to death if we stop paying to trade with the good folk of Valetta and Gozo.
Have you been to Singapore?
Our elected politicians of all parties were saying in the HoC before the referendum that the result would be carried out, there would be no second referendum, etc. Ideally they should certainly have designed the referendum better, with each answer leading to a clear series of actions in a clear legal framework. With hindsight people who were Remainers (Cameron especially) shouldn't have spent the previous years going on about Europe and building up to an unnecessary referendum.
But our MPs can't very well just decide to have a second referendum, having themselves designed and voted through the first. I've enough friends and family who voted Leave, with the clear understanding that there wouldn't be a second referendum and their decision was final, to want to start shifting the goalposts after the fact.
Sometimes I wonder if OGH puts these threads up to start a fight in an empty room as out come the usual suspects saying the same things they say every single day. Ho hum...
I was out and about yesterday and I heard President Trump's comments on my way home and was, to he honest, impressed. They were fine words which could have been said by any American President with conviction.
When I got to see him speak those words and especially the comment about how he spoke them (and this was on the BBC), it was much less impressive. As others may have remarked, for those who follow body language, Trump yesterday wasn't the Trump we've seen on previous outings.
I do wonder if we're seeing the first manifestation of the rise of John F. Kelly who presumably had a big say in what was said. It may also mean some changes in Trump's rhetoric toward North Korea in the coming days. Given the widespread condemnation of Trump's previous comments on events in Charlottesville (which did sound Corbyn-esque in all honesty), I imagine the clamour for a more forthright response from the mainstream GOP had percolated through to Kelly and he (and others) had been fairly blunt toward Trump and told him what to say.
More likely it’ll be more difficult to go and visit the good folk etc on holiday.
Please explain, logically, why Spain would want to stop us spending money there,
Starting early isn't he
While there appear to be few aspects of the negotiations that Leave and Remain voters demand at all cost or reject at all cost, there are aspects of the negotiations that are very important to them. Leave voters are particularly concerned about control over immigration and opposed to deals that give Britain less than “full control” over immigration. They are similarly concerned about legal sovereignty and any “divorce bill”. They also strongly prefer scenarios where EU citizens are able to apply for residence more than scenarios where all must leave. Remain voters care much more about the rights of EU citizens – indeed, no other aspect of the negotiations appears to matter more to them. They also agree with Leave voters that trade terms with fewer barriers and lower tariffs than a “no deal” scenario would bring are preferable to a hard break from the common market. Yet, ultimately, citizens are indifferent about many aspects of Brexit.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/08/13/the-british-are-indifferent-about-many-aspects-of-brexit-but-leave-and-remain-voters-are-divided-on-several-key-issues/
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/897370461759320065
Will mobile phone companies re-introduce roaming charges? Probably not, but there’ll be no-one to stop them.
And, as yet, no-one has convonced me that Easyjet and Ryanair are simply crying wolf.
If we got a second referendum, given the many statements in the HoC that 2016 would be final, it would only boost the justified cynicism people have about politics and damage democracy. We might lose that second referendum anyway, imagine the chaos then! And if not, all the underlying factors which fed antiEU and broader anti-establishment feeling are still there, ready for some other cause.
That raises more than a few questions about his judgement.
In practice, hyperbolic formulations like "disastrously divided" or similar just mean "my side lost, and I want to reproach the winning scum for their wicked, stupid and selfish victory".
Enter the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU. A salesperson approaches...
S. "Good morning, Sir. How may I help you today?"
DD. "I would like to buy a car."
S. "Certainly. Do you know what colour you would like?"
DD. "Yes, but I am not going to tell you. I need some constructive ambiguity in the negotiation"
Several hours pass. Exit DD, without a car...
http://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-report-latest-remainers-deport-eu-citizens-uk-back-hard-european-union-study-explained-a7892216.html
You getting it yet? He can buy a car anywhere.
Remainers are not listening if they don't know what Leave means yet.
I'll put you in the same group with Fox who not believes that everything you read in the Remainstream media is both totally accurate and complete.
All good for you?
In 2016 Australia had the following trade deficits by country:
1 United States: -US$12.7 billion (country-specific trade deficit in 2016)
2 Germany: -$8.4 billion
3 Thailand: -$8.1 billion
4 Italy: -$3.9 billion
5 Malaysia: -$3.4 billion
6 France: -$2.5 billion
7 Ireland: -$1.9 billion
8 Switzerland: -$1.6 billion
9 Mexico: -$1.5 billion
10 Sweden: -$1.4 billion
Supposing a condition of Australia's being allowed to continue her trade deficit with Thailand was to implement Thai law in Australia. Would Australians agree to that?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/14/jacob-rees-mogg-contempt-tory-leadership-pitch
I'd encourage those who are not Guardianistas to read it in the spirit of hearing the other viewpoint
There are countries on "our own continent" that are doing perfectly well without being in the EU.
Anyway, conversing with you is becoming increasingly tedious and pointless, life is far too short to engage with flat earthers.
The Tories did as well as they did on the grounds that they weren`t Corbyn.
But does anybody seriously think that Corbyn`s gang would be more competent than the present shambles?