FPT: - and in response to Mr Meeks - whose original comment re an alternative to extreme Brexit I largely agree with.
PART 1
But I think the "citizens of nowhere" quote has also been, to some extent, misinterpreted.
This is the relevant bit of the speech:-
"Yet within our society today, we see division and unfairness all around. Between a more prosperous older generation and a struggling younger generation. Between the wealth of London and the rest of the country.
But perhaps most of all, between the rich, the successful and the powerful - and their fellow citizens.
.......
That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.
That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.
That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…
An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…
A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…
A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…
.....This can’t go on anymore."
The examples she quotes are ones where I think the Tories do have a point - that people who are well off in this society and as a result of the hard work of all of us, of people who are much less well off, do - IMO - owe an obligation to those around us, to pay tax, to treat staff well, to contribute and not merely to treat a country as a place where you make your money without any social, legal or moral obligations to that country and the people in it.
There has, I think, been an unwelcome development in recent years of a sort of Richistan where rich people interact only with each other and treat the rest of us as somehow less important, as if money is the only thing that matters. And I think - I hope - you would agree that the value of a person is more, much more, than their wealth. Society exists and society matters. And it matters that all of us contribute to the society in which we live, not try and shut ourselves off, insulated by wealth.
This feeling that too many of the rich see themselves as a class apart from the rest is one reason why Corbyn has been as successful as he has been. He has a point that the levels of inequality and a sort of F*** You mentality to the less well off are inimical to a fair society. May correctly identified the same sickness at the heart of modern day capitalism.
Where you have a point is in criticizing the implication that if you are interested in the world beyond your borders you are somehow not a good citizen of the country you live in. That is a false dichotomy.
But it is also fair to say that there are some who seem so interested in the wider world and in being part of it and in glorying in this that they can sometimes give the very strong impression that they don't care at all about people around them, their immediate neighbours, the very people on whom they depend for their lifestyle. It's like those who emote about the poor in far off places and hold lavish charity balls for them but do nothing about paying decent wages to the cleaners in their own places of work and won't even speak to them when they see them.
There are too many Mrs Jellabys around. There are too many people who think that caring about people in this country who do not have the advantages that the likes of you and I have had is somehow being insular and provincial.
And I challenge that. Loving your neighbor is a good principle to live by. An understanding of the world can start with understanding the neighbourhood and place you live in. It's not either/or.
There are too many people who think that caring about people in this country who do not have the advantages that the likes of you and I have had is somehow being insular and provincial.
Snip
You understate the case. It isn't just caring about such people which is insular and provincial, so is failure to denounce them in explicit terms as ignorant, xenophobic bigots if they dare to express any concern about excessive immigration diluting beyond what it will stand their access to things like housing, healthcare and education which the rich buy privately. Ignore the fact that many of the poor expressing these fears are of ethnic minorities and are the children of immigrants, and that the victims of excess immigration are also, disproportionately, immigrants themselves, like the inhabitants of Grenfell Tower.
All very LOL, but there's limits to how naive trump jr can actually be. It seems to me more likely than not that an informed decision has been made that as the relevant emails are going to come out sooner or later, this is the least worst way of disclosing them. Say there are, in the future, impeachment proceedings in which these emails are raised: if that's the first anyone hears of them that is a real pearl-clutching moment. Better to be able to say, yeah, but we've known about those since summer 2017, so how come you did nothing about them then?
Alternatively, or concurrently, the decision has been made that trump jr must throw himself to the wolves and claim his dad knew nothing about it.
There are too many people who think that caring about people in this country who do not have the advantages that the likes of you and I have had is somehow being insular and provincial.
Snip
You understate the case. It isn't just caring about such people which is insular and provincial, so is failure to denounce them in explicit terms as ignorant, xenophobic bigots if they dare to express any concern about excessive immigration diluting beyond what it will stand their access to things like housing, healthcare and education which the rich buy privately. Ignore the fact that many of the poor expressing these fears are of ethnic minorities and are the children of immigrants, and that the victims of excess immigration are also, disproportionately, immigrants themselves, like the inhabitants of Grenfell Tower.
Well you know me: I exhibit a Zen-like calm and leave the shrieking to the likes of dear old @SeanT.
Too many people who have done well our of our current system (including immigration) are singularly unwilling to bear the costs or to share the prosperity fairly with fellow citizens. Out of such resentment does a Leave vote and Corbyn's unexpected success grow.
New Labour did very well in two types of ex-Conservative seats:-
1. Middle class liberal urban seats. Here, modern Labour has performed strongly, especially in London, but has not quite matched New Labour. They failed to win St. Alban's or the London Jewish seats. At the same time, the Lib Dems' performance in such seats is well short of 1997-2010, to the benefit of the Conservatives.
2. Aspirational working class seats, in places like Kent, Essex, Herts., and the Midlands. Modern Labour have a big problem in such seats, many of which have huge Tory leads now. Economically and culturally, they're firmly aligned to the Tories.
It keeps the unemployment numbers down. I suspect it is the reason Gordon Brown & Labour came up with the arbitrary "50% should go to Uni" which turned out to be unfundable under the previous system, which led to massive student debt to fund things which then leads to a future debt crisis.
But on the plus side, all the problems were likely to show up after Gordon & Co retired from politics so it was all good for them.
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
O/T, the F1 event in London tomorrow looks to be huge, cars running down Whitehall from Trafalgar Sq in the evening. Clearly a lot of planning gone into it, all 10 teams involved.
FPT: - and in response to Mr Meeks - whose original comment re an alternative to extreme Brexit I largely agree with.
PART 1
But I think the "citizens of nowhere" quote has also been, to some extent, misinterpreted.
This is the relevant bit of the speech:-
"Yet within our society today, we see division and unfairness all around. Between a more prosperous older generation and a struggling younger generation. Between the wealth of London and the rest of the country.
But perhaps most of all, between the rich, the successful and the powerful - and their fellow citizens.
.......
That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.
That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.
That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…
An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…
A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…
A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…
.....This can’t go on anymore."
The examples she quotes are ones where I think the Tories do have a point - that people who are well off in this society and as a result of the hard work of all of us, of people who are much less well off, do - IMO - owe an obligation to those around us, to pay tax, to treat staff well, to contribute and not merely to treat a country as a place where you make your money without any social, legal or moral obligations to that country and the people in it.
For some multinationals globalisation has allowed the opportunity to pay third world rates, sell at first world prices and pay tax at tax haven rates.
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise me if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
FPT: - and in response to Mr Meeks - whose original comment re an alternative to extreme Brexit I largely agree with.
PART 1
But I think the "citizens of nowhere" quote has also been, to some extent, misinterpreted.
This is the relevant bit of the speech:-
"Yet within our society today, we see division and unfairness all around. Between a more prosperous older generation and a struggling younger generation. Between the wealth of London and the rest of the country.
But perhaps most of all, between the rich, the successful and the powerful - and their fellow citizens.
.......
That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.
That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.
That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…
An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…
A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…
A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…
.....This can’t go on anymore."
The examples she quotes are ones where I think the Tories do have a point - that people who are well off in this society and as a result of the hard work of all of us, of people who are much less well off, do - IMO - owe an obligation to those around us, to pay tax, to treat staff well, to contribute and not merely to treat a country as a place where you make your money without any social, legal or moral obligations to that country and the people in it.
For some multinationals globalisation has allowed the opportunity to pay third world rates, sell at first world prices and pay tax at tax haven rates.
Not just multinationals. Individuals too. It is storing up resentment. Whether or not you like the "citizen of nowhere" comment, no man is an island, as the poet once said.
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
I have always maintained that the whole system of student loans is a disgrace. The only part that was more disgraceful was those in the cabinet who got a free Uni education pulling up the ladder behind them and telling us all how wonderful it would be.
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
I have always maintained that the whole system of student loans is a disgrace. The only part that was more disgraceful was those in the cabinet who got a free Uni education pulling up the ladder behind them and telling us all how wonderful it would be.
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise me if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
So it's free, then. She's not paying a penny for either the degree or the money towards support she was guven during her course. Quite a good deal.
As an aside, we HAVE to rename the entire system. When you see "in £xxxxxx debt", the reaction is "shit, they have to pay all that off", with a memtal subtext of "...and if they run into financial difficulties, they are so screwed when it comes to keeping up payments" and occasionally an additional mental subtext of "... and that will really limit them on getting credit and mortgages until it's all cleared".
As the system is 0 for 3 on those (you don't have to pay all that off and you're really expected not to; you only pay when you're earning a decent whack and if you're not, don't worry about it; it's not treated as debt for credit scores), the name gives incorrect incentives.
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
Xenophobe, bigot, Turkey, bus, zzzzz.
I don't think those smears can be thrown as the victims are poor immigrants as well as poor British people & the culprits are rich foreigners as well as rich Brits
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise me if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
So it's free, then. She's not paying a penny for either the degree or the money towards support she was guven during her course. Quite a good deal.
As an aside, we HAVE to rename the entire system. When you see "in £xxxxxx debt", the reaction is "shit, they have to pay all that off", with a memtal subtext of "...and if they run into financial difficulties, they are so screwed when it comes to keeping up payments" and occasionally an additional mental subtext of "... and that will really limit them on getting credit and mortgages until it's all cleared".
As the system is 0 for 3 on those (you don't have to pay all that off and you're really expected not to; you only pay when you're earning a decent whack and if you're not, don't worry about it; it's not treated as debt for credit scores), the name gives incorrect incentives.
No its not free because there are opportunity costs.
If you're not going to earn £21k then the degree has done little for your employment prospects. A rather better idea would likely have been getting a job with training and skill/experience acquiring prospects.
Not to mention that the starting point for paying the extra 9% income tax will likely fall in real terms over the years.
Or that the assumption that the debt will be written off after 30 years might turn out to be incorrect as well.
And aren't mortgages granted on a basis of being able to repay them ? Someone paying an extra 9% tax on earnings over £21k therefore has lower earnings to service a mortgage than someone who doesn't pay that extra tax.
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
Xenophobe, bigot, Turkey, bus, zzzzz.
I don't think those smears can be thrown as the victims are poor immigrants as well as poor British people & the culprits are rich foreigners as well as rich Brits
Yes, sorry, I was parodying the likely bienpensant response to your post.
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
Xenophobe, bigot, Turkey, bus, zzzzz.
Has the govt. given HMRC an unofficial green light to be kind to businesses which want to outsource labour costs and risks. It wouldn't be new for HMRC to be given unofficial guidance whose side to to take. It became uncomfortably close to Goldman Sachs, Google, Vodafone and now perhaps Uber.
Years ago the Inland Revenue had a long list of rules it used to decide if someone was
a) salaried, i.e. contract of service or b) self-employed, i.e. contract for services.
Set hours would be an almost sure sign of a). The Inland Revenue's enthusiasm for chasing employers and ordering them to deduct tax at source seems far less than it was. Why don't they act? I'd like to know.
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
Xenophobe, bigot, Turkey, bus, zzzzz.
I don't think those smears can be thrown as the victims are poor immigrants as well as poor British people & the culprits are rich foreigners as well as rich Brits
Yes, sorry, I was parodying the likely bienpensant response to your post.
Very few countries have the "clout" to withstand what the EU will throw at us (look how poor Greece has been treated) so most countries will tow the line for now... But guarantee they'll be watching closely to see how things work out for us in the longer term...
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
Xenophobe, bigot, Turkey, bus, zzzzz.
Has the govt. given HMRC an unofficial green light to be kind to businesses which want to outsource labour costs and risks. It wouldn't be new for HMRC to be given unofficial guidance whose side to to take. It became uncomfortably close to Goldman Sachs, Google, Vodafone and now perhaps Uber.
Years ago the Inland Revenue had a long list of rules it used to decide if someone was
a) salaried, i.e. contract of service or b) self-employed, i.e. contract for services.
Set hours would be an almost sure sign of a). The Inland Revenue's enthusiasm for chasing employers and ordering them to deduct tax at source seems far less than it was. Why don't they act? I'd like to know.
Hopefully they will.
Now we know that posh shops in upmarket shopping centres/districts are only able to operate at big margins through exploitation of workers, & the care industry is riddled with such cases too according to the unions. When I banged on about slum housing a month or so ago I was asked how it was possible to exploit the immigrants so, & although I was sure it was happening, I didn't know how... now we know
Very few countries have the "clout" to withstand what the EU will throw at us (look how poor Greece has been treated) so most countries will tow the line for now... But guarantee they'll be watching closely to see how things work out for us in the longer term...
What's our new foreign policy towards Serbia, for example? Do we support their EU membership bid, think they should follow our example, or simply not have a policy?
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise me if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
So it's free, then. She's not paying a penny for either the degree or the money towards support she was guven during her course. Quite a good deal.
As an aside, we HAVE to rename the entire system. When you see "in £xxxxxx debt", the reaction is "shit, they have to pay all that off", with a memtal subtext of "...and if they run into financial difficulties, they are so screwed when it comes to keeping up payments" and occasionally an additional mental subtext of "... and that will really limit them on getting credit and mortgages until it's all cleared".
As the system is 0 for 3 on those (you don't have to pay all that off and you're really expected not to; you only pay when you're earning a decent whack and if you're not, don't worry about it; it's not treated as debt for credit scores), the name gives incorrect incentives.
No its not free because there are opportunity costs.
If you're not going to earn £21k then the degree has done little for your employment prospects. A rather better idea would likely have been getting a job with training and skill/experience acquiring prospects.
Not to mention that the starting point for paying the extra 9% income tax will likely fall in real terms over the years.
Or that the assumption that the debt will be written off after 30 years might turn out to be incorrect as well.
And aren't mortgages granted on a basis of being able to repay them ? Someone paying an extra 9% tax on earnings over £21k therefore has lower earnings to service a mortgage than someone who doesn't pay that extra tax.
That opportunity cost is there whether tuition fees exist or not. If everything was free (and still somehow as prevalent), she'd have incurred that opportunity cost. That's solely on the student's choice.
The starting rate and write-off levels are as they are; speculating on them changing is on something that they are not at the moment.
The extra contribution isn't that distorting until you're earning a goodly whack:
- At median UK earnings (£25k), it's £3 per month, which won't be unduly disturbing on repayment possibilities. - At £31k, it's £25 per month. - At £41k, it's £50 per month - the same as a Sky Sports bundle It takes until you're on £61k before it's £100 per month.
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
I have always maintained that the whole system of student loans is a disgrace. The only part that was more disgraceful was those in the cabinet who got a free Uni education pulling up the ladder behind them and telling us all how wonderful it would be.
I don't object to student loans, but I do object to students being sold a pig in a poke.
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
I have always maintained that the whole system of student loans is a disgrace. The only part that was more disgraceful was those in the cabinet who got a free Uni education pulling up the ladder behind them and telling us all how wonderful it would be.
The disgrace is the pretence that a university degree is suitable further education for vast numbers of young people who ought to be doing other more cost effective forms of FE - and all in the aim of equality.
It keeps the unemployment numbers down. I suspect it is the reason Gordon Brown & Labour came up with the arbitrary "50% should go to Uni" which turned out to be unfundable under the previous system, which led to massive student debt to fund things which then leads to a future debt crisis.
But on the plus side, all the problems were likely to show up after Gordon & Co retired from politics so it was all good for them.
I doubt it was that cynical.
It was more that they thought all must have prizes.
- At median UK earnings (£25k), it's £3 per month, which won't be unduly disturbing on repayment possibilities. - At £31k, it's £25 per month. - At £41k, it's £50 per month - the same as a Sky Sports bundle It takes until you're on £61k before it's £100 per month.
All repayments are £24.19 than the plan 1, BUT with the far less penalising interest rates on those you can actually start to see the end of the road at some point in time.
I think the plan 1 system (With perhaps around £3000 PA fees) was far better and fairer to both student and taxpayer.
So it's free, then. She's not paying a penny for either the degree or the money towards support she was guven during her course. Quite a good deal.
As an aside, we HAVE to rename the entire system. When you see "in £xxxxxx debt", the reaction is "shit, they have to pay all that off", with a memtal subtext of "...and if they run into financial difficulties, they are so screwed when it comes to keeping up payments" and occasionally an additional mental subtext of "... and that will really limit them on getting credit and mortgages until it's all cleared".
As the system is 0 for 3 on those (you don't have to pay all that off and you're really expected not to; you only pay when you're earning a decent whack and if you're not, don't worry about it; it's not treated as debt for credit scores), the name gives incorrect incentives.
No its not free because there are opportunity costs.
If you're not going to earn £21k then the degree has done little for your employment prospects. A rather better idea would likely have been getting a job with training and skill/experience acquiring prospects.
Not to mention that the starting point for paying the extra 9% income tax will likely fall in real terms over the years.
Or that the assumption that the debt will be written off after 30 years might turn out to be incorrect as well.
And aren't mortgages granted on a basis of being able to repay them ? Someone paying an extra 9% tax on earnings over £21k therefore has lower earnings to service a mortgage than someone who doesn't pay that extra tax.
That opportunity cost is there whether tuition fees exist or not. If everything was free (and still somehow as prevalent), she'd have incurred that opportunity cost. That's solely on the student's choice.
The starting rate and write-off levels are as they are; speculating on them changing is on something that they are not at the moment.
The extra contribution isn't that distorting until you're earning a goodly whack:
- At median UK earnings (£25k), it's £3 per month, which won't be unduly disturbing on repayment possibilities. - At £31k, it's £25 per month. - At £41k, it's £50 per month - the same as a Sky Sports bundle It takes until you're on £61k before it's £100 per month.
That's insanely low, and earning interest at 6% all the time means that most people won't come close to paying £50k and all the interest back. From memory my loan 20 years ago was £100 a month for 5 years or thereabouts, with the interest rate set at RPI.
So it's free, then. She's not paying a penny for either the degree or the money towards support she was guven during her course. Quite a good deal.
As an aside, we HAVE to rename the entire system. When you see "in £xxxxxx debt", the reaction is "shit, they have to pay all that off", with a memtal subtext of "...and if they run into financial difficulties, they are so screwed when it comes to keeping up payments" and occasionally an additional mental subtext of "... and that will really limit them on getting credit and mortgages until it's all cleared".
As the system is 0 for 3 on those (you don't have to pay all that off and you're really expected not to; you only pay when you're earning a decent whack and if you're not, don't worry about it; it's not treated as debt for credit scores), the name gives incorrect incentives.
No its not free because there are opportunity costs.
If you're not going to earn £21k then the degree has done little for your employment prospects. A rather better idea would likely have been getting a job with training and skill/experience acquiring prospects.
Not to mention that the starting point for paying the extra 9% income tax will likely fall in real terms over the years.
Or that the assumption that the debt will be written off after 30 years might turn out to be incorrect as well.
And aren't mortgages granted on a basis of being able to repay them ? Someone paying an extra 9% tax on earnings over £21k therefore has lower earnings to service a mortgage than someone who doesn't pay that extra tax.
That opportunity cost is there whether tuition fees exist or not. If everything was free (and still somehow as prevalent), she'd have incurred that opportunity cost. That's solely on the student's choice.
The starting rate and write-off levels are as they are; speculating on them changing is on something that they are not at the moment.
The extra contribution isn't that distorting until you're earning a goodly whack:
- At median UK earnings (£25k), it's £3 per month, which won't be unduly disturbing on repayment possibilities. - At £31k, it's £25 per month. - At £41k, it's £50 per month - the same as a Sky Sports bundle It takes until you're on £61k before it's £100 per month.
£25k - £30 per month £30k - £67 per month £50k - £217 per month
I notice that those with student debts from before 2012 have to start repayments when earning only £17,775. I can certainly see the two starting levels being equalised at some point.
According to WP this newly convicted Viscount: has been declared bankrupt three times, had a criminal conviction for financial mismanagement and two further convictions for malicious communications
There has, I think, been an unwelcome development in recent years of a sort of Richistan where rich people interact only with each other and treat the rest of us as somehow less important, as if money is the only thing that matters. And I think - I hope - you would agree that the value of a person is more, much more, than their wealth. Society exists and society matters. And it matters that all of us contribute to the society in which we live, not try and shut ourselves off, insulated by wealth.
This feeling that too many of the rich see themselves as a class apart from the rest is one reason why Corbyn has been as successful as he has been. He has a point that the levels of inequality and a sort of F*** You mentality to the less well off are inimical to a fair society. May correctly identified the same sickness at the heart of modern day capitalism.
Where you have a point is in criticizing the implication that if you are interested in the world beyond your borders you are somehow not a good citizen of the country you live in. That is a false dichotomy.
But it is also fair to say that there are some who seem so interested in the wider world and in being part of it and in glorying in this that they can sometimes give the very strong impression that they don't care at all about people around them, their immediate neighbours, the very people on whom they depend for their lifestyle. It's like those who emote about the poor in far off places and hold lavish charity balls for them but do nothing about paying decent wages to the cleaners in their own places of work and won't even speak to them when they see them.
There are too many Mrs Jellabys around. There are too many people who think that caring about people in this country who do not have the advantages that the likes of you and I have had is somehow being insular and provincial.
And I challenge that. Loving your neighbor is a good principle to live by. An understanding of the world can start with understanding the neighbourhood and place you live in. It's not either/or.
That is absolutely 100% right. If you were to talk to the family companies in Europe - or in the US - they absolutely get this. Prosperity depends on giving something back to society
There has, I think, been an unwelcome development in recent years of a sort of Richistan where rich people interact only with each other and treat the rest of us as somehow less important, as if money is the only thing that matters. And I think - I hope - you would agree that the value of a person is more, much more, than their wealth. Society exists and society matters. And it matters that all of us contribute to the society in which we live, not try and shut ourselves off, insulated by wealth.
This feeling that too many of the rich see themselves as a class apart from the rest is one reason why Corbyn has been as successful as he has been. He has a point that the levels of inequality and a sort of F*** You mentality to the less well off are inimical to a fair society. May correctly identified the same sickness at the heart of modern day capitalism.
Where you have a point is in criticizing the implication that if you are interested in the world beyond your borders you are somehow not a good citizen of the country you live in. That is a false dichotomy.
But it is also fair to say that there are some who seem so interested in the wider world and in being part of it and in glorying in this that they can sometimes give the very strong impression that they don't care at all about people around them, their immediate neighbours, the very people on whom they depend for their lifestyle. It's like those who emote about the poor in far off places and hold lavish charity balls for them but do nothing about paying decent wages to the cleaners in their own places of work and won't even speak to them when they see them.
There are too many Mrs Jellabys around. There are too many people who think that caring about people in this country who do not have the advantages that the likes of you and I have had is somehow being insular and provincial.
And I challenge that. Loving your neighbor is a good principle to live by. An understanding of the world can start with understanding the neighbourhood and place you live in. It's not either/or.
That is absolutely 100% right. If you were to talk to the family companies in Europe - or in the US - they absolutely get this. Prosperity depends on giving something back to society
£25k - £30 per month £30k - £67 per month £50k - £217 per month
I notice that those with student debts from before 2012 have to start repayments when earning only £17,775. I can certainly see the two starting levels being equalised at some point.
If the Gov't (And I don't think they will) ever thought about changing plan I rules to plan II, I'd just pay the (My plan I) loan off tommorow - even though my salaried payments would be lower.
Very few countries have the "clout" to withstand what the EU will throw at us (look how poor Greece has been treated) so most countries will tow the line for now... But guarantee they'll be watching closely to see how things work out for us in the longer term...
What's our new foreign policy towards Serbia, for example? Do we support their EU membership bid, think they should follow our example, or simply not have a policy?
My view (different to UK view of course) is that it's up to them...
According to WP this newly convicted Viscount: has been declared bankrupt three times, had a criminal conviction for financial mismanagement and two further convictions for malicious communications
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
Xenophobe, bigot, Turkey, bus, zzzzz.
Has the govt. given HMRC an unofficial green light to be kind to businesses which want to outsource labour costs and risks. It wouldn't be new for HMRC to be given unofficial guidance whose side to to take. It became uncomfortably close to Goldman Sachs, Google, Vodafone and now perhaps Uber.
Years ago the Inland Revenue had a long list of rules it used to decide if someone was
a) salaried, i.e. contract of service or b) self-employed, i.e. contract for services.
Set hours would be an almost sure sign of a). The Inland Revenue's enthusiasm for chasing employers and ordering them to deduct tax at source seems far less than it was. Why don't they act? I'd like to know.
Hopefully they will.
Now we know that posh shops in upmarket shopping centres/districts are only able to operate at big margins through exploitation of workers, & the care industry is riddled with such cases too according to the unions. When I banged on about slum housing a month or so ago I was asked how it was possible to exploit the immigrants so, & although I was sure it was happening, I didn't know how... now we know
In the home counties, if one chooses not to live in a slum high-rise, it appears another possibility is to rent a garden shed in Slough
£25k - £30 per month £30k - £67 per month £50k - £217 per month
I notice that those with student debts from before 2012 have to start repayments when earning only £17,775. I can certainly see the two starting levels being equalised at some point.
If the Gov't (And I don't think they will) ever thought about changing plan I rules to plan II, I'd just pay the (My plan I) loan off tommorow - even though my salaried payments would be lower.
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
Xenophobe, bigot, Turkey, bus, zzzzz.
Has the govt. given HMRC an unofficial green light to be kind to businesses which want to outsource labour costs and risks. It wouldn't be new for HMRC to be given unofficial guidance whose side to to take. It became uncomfortably close to Goldman Sachs, Google, Vodafone and now perhaps Uber.
Years ago the Inland Revenue had a long list of rules it used to decide if someone was
a) salaried, i.e. contract of service or b) self-employed, i.e. contract for services.
Set hours would be an almost sure sign of a). The Inland Revenue's enthusiasm for chasing employers and ordering them to deduct tax at source seems far less than it was. Why don't they act? I'd like to know.
Hopefully they will.
Now we know that posh shops in upmarket shopping centres/districts are only able to operate at big margins through exploitation of workers, & the care industry is riddled with such cases too according to the unions. When I banged on about slum housing a month or so ago I was asked how it was possible to exploit the immigrants so, & although I was sure it was happening, I didn't know how... now we know
In the home counties, if one chooses not to live in a slum high-rise, it appears another possibility is to rent a garden shed in Slough
Well I guess it's an improvement from 2011. Back then, Slough Council were telling us (the ONS) that we were under counting them in the Census and they knew this because they were measuring sewage output.
£25k - £30 per month £30k - £67 per month £50k - £217 per month
I notice that those with student debts from before 2012 have to start repayments when earning only £17,775. I can certainly see the two starting levels being equalised at some point.
If the Gov't (And I don't think they will) ever thought about changing plan I rules to plan II, I'd just pay the (My plan I) loan off tommorow - even though my salaried payments would be lower.
Same.
Same. I still have my statements somewhere showing the time when the SLC was paying off my debt for me thanks to negative inflation!
A first step at reforming the current system would be to remove interest entirely, and have the treasury fill the gap.
£25k - £30 per month £30k - £67 per month £50k - £217 per month
I notice that those with student debts from before 2012 have to start repayments when earning only £17,775. I can certainly see the two starting levels being equalised at some point.
If the Gov't (And I don't think they will) ever thought about changing plan I rules to plan II, I'd just pay the (My plan I) loan off tommorow - even though my salaried payments would be lower.
I expect most of the plan I debts will be paid off within a few years.
The interest rate on the plan II debts though is a disgrace - its almost designed to get young people hooked into never repaying the whole debt.
And once people get used to never being clear of one sort of debt then they become more willing to never being able to clear other types of debt.
' Soap and Co. mainly recruits workers from Eastern Europe, and some staff paid for cramped accommodation with shared bedrooms. '
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
I wonder how many of these self employed folk are sharing bedrooms in cramped accommodation cladded with flammable material?
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
Xenophobe, bigot, Turkey, bus, zzzzz.
Has the govt. given HMRC an unofficial green light to be kind to businesses which want to outsource labour costs and risks. It wouldn't be new for HMRC to be given unofficial guidance whose side to to take. It became uncomfortably close to Goldman Sachs, Google, Vodafone and now perhaps Uber.
Years ago the Inland Revenue had a long list of rules it used to decide if someone was
a) salaried, i.e. contract of service or b) self-employed, i.e. contract for services.
Set hours would be an almost sure sign of a). The Inland Revenue's enthusiasm for chasing employers and ordering them to deduct tax at source seems far less than it was. Why don't they act? I'd like to know.
Hopefully they will.
Now we know that posh shops in upmarket shopping centres/districts are only able to operate at big margins through exploitation of workers, & the care industry is riddled with such cases too according to the unions. When I banged on about slum housing a month or so ago I was asked how it was possible to exploit the immigrants so, & although I was sure it was happening, I didn't know how... now we know
In the home counties, if one chooses not to live in a slum high-rise, it appears another possibility is to rent a garden shed in Slough
Well I guess it's an improvement from 2011. Back then, Slough Council were telling us (the ONS) that we were under counting them in the Census and they knew this because they were measuring sewage output.
LOL about the sewage.
There has presumably been a huge government incentive to let sleeping dogs lie over this (suddenly a less available option post-Grenfell) because of the huge upward pressure on demand for housing and for housing benefit if you move everybody to somewhere habitable, legal and non-overcrowded.
FPT ' Only Scottish Labour gains from the Conservatives matter. If they gain from the SNP, it makes no difference to their prospect of forming a government.' Felix said : 'I suspect they are unlikely whereas on current trends [ which of course may change] there are 5/6 more potential Scon gains from a weaker SNP. '
I suspect the Tories have pretty well reached their peak in Scotland. Indeed 4 or 5 of their gains from the SNP could well be vulnerable to Labour winning from third place next time as tactical voting unwinds.
Fecking hull. I knew he said it, but the context is 1m times more jawdropping - vis. that "he was challenged to condemn UKIP Oxford chair Dr Julia Gasper’s claims that homosexuals prefer sex with animals."
The whole story is remarkably iffy. Stallions are a bugger to handle and on the whole you don't own them unless you are a professional breeder - you are highly unlikely to own one as "my horse" [by implication "my only horse"]. You are bloody careful what you put them in a field with, and especially you don't put them with another stallion (which presumably the horny donkey is meant to be, though geldings do sometimes have quite a lot of their mojo left). I don't actually believe any of it.
Also, is that the real Pink News? I ask because of the headline "Study finds heterosexual men find gay men as repulsive as rotting flesh." Surely shome mishtake?
Fecking hull. I knew he said it, but the context is 1m times more jawdropping - vis. that "he was challenged to condemn UKIP Oxford chair Dr Julia Gasper’s claims that homosexuals prefer sex with animals."
The whole story is remarkably iffy. Stallions are a bugger to handle and on the whole you don't own them unless you are a professional breeder - you are highly unlikely to own one as "my horse" [by implication "my only horse"]. You are bloody careful what you put them in a field with, and especially you don't put them with another stallion (which presumably the horny donkey is meant to be, though geldings do sometimes have quite a lot of their mojo left). I don't actually believe any of it.
Also, is that the real Pink News? I ask because of the headline "Study finds heterosexual men find gay men as repulsive as rotting flesh." Surely shome mishtake?
Fecking hull. I knew he said it, but the context is 1m times more jawdropping - vis. that "he was challenged to condemn UKIP Oxford chair Dr Julia Gasper’s claims that homosexuals prefer sex with animals."
The whole story is remarkably iffy. Stallions are a bugger to handle and on the whole you don't own them unless you are a professional breeder - you are highly unlikely to own one as "my horse" [by implication "my only horse"]. You are bloody careful what you put them in a field with, and especially you don't put them with another stallion (which presumably the horny donkey is meant to be, though geldings do sometimes have quite a lot of their mojo left). I don't actually believe any of it.
Also, is that the real Pink News? I ask because of the headline "Study finds heterosexual men find gay men as repulsive as rotting flesh." Surely shome mishtake?
Fecking hull. I knew he said it, but the context is 1m times more jawdropping - vis. that "he was challenged to condemn UKIP Oxford chair Dr Julia Gasper’s claims that homosexuals prefer sex with animals."
The whole story is remarkably iffy. Stallions are a bugger to handle and on the whole you don't own them unless you are a professional breeder - you are highly unlikely to own one as "my horse" [by implication "my only horse"]. You are bloody careful what you put them in a field with, and especially you don't put them with another stallion (which presumably the horny donkey is meant to be, though geldings do sometimes have quite a lot of their mojo left). I don't actually believe any of it.
Also, is that the real Pink News? I ask because of the headline "Study finds heterosexual men find gay men as repulsive as rotting flesh." Surely shome mishtake?
Read about "Mr. Hands" of Seattle.
Not to be confused with "Mr. Hands" of the Treasury?
For some multinationals globalisation has allowed the opportunity to pay third world rates, sell at first world prices and pay tax at tax haven rates.
Well put. And I think there's genuine cross-party dislike of all three elements of that. The question is what to do about it, and what price one's willing to pay, e.g. in losing some of the hot money that flows to our shores.
Fecking hull. I knew he said it, but the context is 1m times more jawdropping - vis. that "he was challenged to condemn UKIP Oxford chair Dr Julia Gasper’s claims that homosexuals prefer sex with animals."
The whole story is remarkably iffy. Stallions are a bugger to handle and on the whole you don't own them unless you are a professional breeder - you are highly unlikely to own one as "my horse" [by implication "my only horse"]. You are bloody careful what you put them in a field with, and especially you don't put them with another stallion (which presumably the horny donkey is meant to be, though geldings do sometimes have quite a lot of their mojo left). I don't actually believe any of it.
Also, is that the real Pink News? I ask because of the headline "Study finds heterosexual men find gay men as repulsive as rotting flesh." Surely shome mishtake?
£25k - £30 per month £30k - £67 per month £50k - £217 per month
I notice that those with student debts from before 2012 have to start repayments when earning only £17,775. I can certainly see the two starting levels being equalised at some point.
If the Gov't (And I don't think they will) ever thought about changing plan I rules to plan II, I'd just pay the (My plan I) loan off tommorow - even though my salaried payments would be lower.
I expect most of the plan I debts will be paid off within a few years.
The interest rate on the plan II debts though is a disgrace - its almost designed to get young people hooked into never repaying the whole debt.
And once people get used to never being clear of one sort of debt then they become more willing to never being able to clear other types of debt.
As far as I can see, the only reason for the excessive interest rates was to make the loan book more attractive for selling off to the private sector.
According to WP this newly convicted Viscount: has been declared bankrupt three times, had a criminal conviction for financial mismanagement and two further convictions for malicious communications
I also agree with the comment that May has shown no ability to articulate a way of dealing with the problems she identified when she became PM.
Maybe some people are good at analyzing the problem but rubbish at coming up with solutions. Who knows? A pity, nonetheless.
Atm the government is behaving like someone whose idea of getting dressed is to cover their body in glue and walk into a wardrobe in the dark.
The result is a total mess.
I agree with pretty much all of that. There aren't any easy answers - particularly to the absurd situation we have landed ourselves in - but a competent Prime Minister could at least be looking for easy wins.
Why, for example, is the government not only allowing, but also underwriting councils borrowing around £3bn per annum to speculate in commercial property, while severely restricting their ability to borrow to invest in council housing ?
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
I have always maintained that the whole system of student loans is a disgrace. The only part that was more disgraceful was those in the cabinet who got a free Uni education pulling up the ladder behind them and telling us all how wonderful it would be.
I don't object to student loans, but I do object to students being sold a pig in a poke.
Martin Lewis (independent financial expert) says student loans are better value than mortgages - unless you know you are going to be earning £100,000 plus for very many years.
This is because most students will never pay off all the accumulated capital/interest.
So he says don't take out a mortgage to pay off the student debt.
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
I have always maintained that the whole system of student loans is a disgrace. The only part that was more disgraceful was those in the cabinet who got a free Uni education pulling up the ladder behind them and telling us all how wonderful it would be.
I don't object to student loans, but I do object to students being sold a pig in a poke.
Martin Lewis (independent financial expert) says student loans are better value than mortgages - unless you know you are going to be earning £100,000 plus for very many years.
This is because most students will never pay off all the accumulated capital/interest.
So he says don't take out a mortgage to pay off the student debt.
Were people really taking them out to repay student loans?
The bravery of the Light Brigade should make you proud to be British.
That comment should definitely be saved next to the photo of Boris and the NHS bus, as possibly the most inadvertently apposite Brexit analogy since Boris himself promised us its titanic success.
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
I have always maintained that the whole system of student loans is a disgrace. The only part that was more disgraceful was those in the cabinet who got a free Uni education pulling up the ladder behind them and telling us all how wonderful it would be.
I don't object to student loans, but I do object to students being sold a pig in a poke.
Martin Lewis (independent financial expert) says student loans are better value than mortgages - unless you know you are going to be earning £100,000 plus for very many years.
This is because most students will never pay off all the accumulated capital/interest.
So he says don't take out a mortgage to pay off the student debt.
If so much is to be written off, why don't we write it off now and save a lot of misery all round?
That sort of debt is okay for a STEM degree or a Russell Group university, but someone needs to be telling the kids that a vocational route is often going to be better, even for white collar jobs like law, accountancy and IT.
The woman in that article is 25 and yet she still doesn't earn £21,000.
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
I have always maintained that the whole system of student loans is a disgrace. The only part that was more disgraceful was those in the cabinet who got a free Uni education pulling up the ladder behind them and telling us all how wonderful it would be.
I don't object to student loans, but I do object to students being sold a pig in a poke.
Martin Lewis (independent financial expert) says student loans are better value than mortgages - unless you know you are going to be earning £100,000 plus for very many years.
This is because most students will never pay off all the accumulated capital/interest.
So he says don't take out a mortgage to pay off the student debt.
Were people really taking them out to repay student loans?
Yes.
Don't forget 40% of people go to Uni nowadays. So not necessarily a high level of intelligence or numeracy.
Except of course Davis has never been at all interested in 'tearing down' the EU. He simply wanted the UK to withdraw. Another lie from Scott n' paste's catalogue.
Comments
'Self employed' but set hours with no time off at weekends.
BBC guy saying unions have plenty more cases
https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/884792926248865792
PART 1
But I think the "citizens of nowhere" quote has also been, to some extent, misinterpreted.
This is the relevant bit of the speech:-
"Yet within our society today, we see division and unfairness all around. Between a more prosperous older generation and a struggling younger generation. Between the wealth of London and the rest of the country.
But perhaps most of all, between the rich, the successful and the powerful - and their fellow citizens.
.......
That spirit that means you respect the bonds and obligations that make our society work. That means a commitment to the men and women who live around you, who work for you, who buy the goods and services you sell.
That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says you train up local young people before you take on cheap labour from overseas.
That spirit that means you do as others do, and pay your fair share of tax.
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff…
An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra…
A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism…
A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust…
.....This can’t go on anymore."
The examples she quotes are ones where I think the Tories do have a point - that people who are well off in this society and as a result of the hard work of all of us, of people who are much less well off, do - IMO - owe an obligation to those around us, to pay tax, to treat staff well, to contribute and not merely to treat a country as a place where you make your money without any social, legal or moral obligations to that country and the people in it.
There has, I think, been an unwelcome development in recent years of a sort of Richistan where rich people interact only with each other and treat the rest of us as somehow less important, as if money is the only thing that matters. And I think - I hope - you would agree that the value of a person is more, much more, than their wealth. Society exists and society matters. And it matters that all of us contribute to the society in which we live, not try and shut ourselves off, insulated by wealth.
This feeling that too many of the rich see themselves as a class apart from the rest is one reason why Corbyn has been as successful as he has been. He has a point that the levels of inequality and a sort of F*** You mentality to the less well off are inimical to a fair society. May correctly identified the same sickness at the heart of modern day capitalism.
Where you have a point is in criticizing the implication that if you are interested in the world beyond your borders you are somehow not a good citizen of the country you live in. That is a false dichotomy.
But it is also fair to say that there are some who seem so interested in the wider world and in being part of it and in glorying in this that they can sometimes give the very strong impression that they don't care at all about people around them, their immediate neighbours, the very people on whom they depend for their lifestyle. It's like those who emote about the poor in far off places and hold lavish charity balls for them but do nothing about paying decent wages to the cleaners in their own places of work and won't even speak to them when they see them.
There are too many Mrs Jellabys around. There are too many people who think that caring about people in this country who do not have the advantages that the likes of you and I have had is somehow being insular and provincial.
And I challenge that. Loving your neighbor is a good principle to live by. An understanding of the world can start with understanding the neighbourhood and place you live in. It's not either/or.
Maybe some people are good at analyzing the problem but rubbish at coming up with solutions. Who knows? A pity, nonetheless.
Atm the government is behaving like someone whose idea of getting dressed is to cover their body in glue and walk into a wardrobe in the dark.
The result is a total mess.
As we're continually told on PB they're 'doing the jobs the locals aren't willing to do'.
I wonder how much employment taxes are getting paid with this exploitation.
All very LOL, but there's limits to how naive trump jr can actually be. It seems to me more likely than not that an informed decision has been made that as the relevant emails are going to come out sooner or later, this is the least worst way of disclosing them. Say there are, in the future, impeachment proceedings in which these emails are raised: if that's the first anyone hears of them that is a real pearl-clutching moment. Better to be able to say, yeah, but we've known about those since summer 2017, so how come you did nothing about them then?
Alternatively, or concurrently, the decision has been made that trump jr must throw himself to the wolves and claim his dad knew nothing about it.
Too many people who have done well our of our current system (including immigration) are singularly unwilling to bear the costs or to share the prosperity fairly with fellow citizens. Out of such resentment does a Leave vote and Corbyn's unexpected success grow.
New Labour did very well in two types of ex-Conservative seats:-
1. Middle class liberal urban seats. Here, modern Labour has performed strongly, especially in London, but has not quite matched New Labour. They failed to win St. Alban's or the London Jewish seats. At the same time, the Lib Dems' performance in such seats is well short of 1997-2010, to the benefit of the Conservatives.
2. Aspirational working class seats, in places like Kent, Essex, Herts., and the Midlands. Modern Labour have a big problem in such seats, many of which have huge Tory leads now. Economically and culturally, they're firmly aligned to the Tories.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/11/student-debt-graduates-tuition-fees
But on the plus side, all the problems were likely to show up after Gordon & Co retired from politics so it was all good for them.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/7/formula-1-announces-f1-live-in-the-heart-of-london.html
https://twitter.com/F1/status/884735248008970240
In other words that degree is pretty much worthless - she's lost four years earnings capacity and acquired huge debts for feck all.
It wouldn't surprise me if some lawyers were looking into the possibilities of mis-selling cases against universities.
The mass import of cheap labour is one of the biggest con jobs ever played by the rich on the poor. I reckon the third world lifestyle it demands in order to succeed will be the next big scandal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konta
She's not paying a penny for either the degree or the money towards support she was guven during her course.
Quite a good deal.
As an aside, we HAVE to rename the entire system. When you see "in £xxxxxx debt", the reaction is "shit, they have to pay all that off", with a memtal subtext of "...and if they run into financial difficulties, they are so screwed when it comes to keeping up payments" and occasionally an additional mental subtext of "... and that will really limit them on getting credit and mortgages until it's all cleared".
As the system is 0 for 3 on those (you don't have to pay all that off and you're really expected not to; you only pay when you're earning a decent whack and if you're not, don't worry about it; it's not treated as debt for credit scores), the name gives incorrect incentives.
If you're not going to earn £21k then the degree has done little for your employment prospects. A rather better idea would likely have been getting a job with training and skill/experience acquiring prospects.
Not to mention that the starting point for paying the extra 9% income tax will likely fall in real terms over the years.
Or that the assumption that the debt will be written off after 30 years might turn out to be incorrect as well.
And aren't mortgages granted on a basis of being able to repay them ? Someone paying an extra 9% tax on earnings over £21k therefore has lower earnings to service a mortgage than someone who doesn't pay that extra tax.
Years ago the Inland Revenue had a long list of rules it used to decide if someone was
a) salaried, i.e. contract of service
or
b) self-employed, i.e. contract for services.
Set hours would be an almost sure sign of a). The Inland Revenue's enthusiasm for chasing employers and ordering them to deduct tax at source seems far less than it was. Why don't they act? I'd like to know.
Now we know that posh shops in upmarket shopping centres/districts are only able to operate at big margins through exploitation of workers, & the care industry is riddled with such cases too according to the unions. When I banged on about slum housing a month or so ago I was asked how it was possible to exploit the immigrants so, & although I was sure it was happening, I didn't know how... now we know
The starting rate and write-off levels are as they are; speculating on them changing is on something that they are not at the moment.
The extra contribution isn't that distorting until you're earning a goodly whack:
- At median UK earnings (£25k), it's £3 per month, which won't be unduly disturbing on repayment possibilities.
- At £31k, it's £25 per month.
- At £41k, it's £50 per month - the same as a Sky Sports bundle
It takes until you're on £61k before it's £100 per month.
It was more that they thought all must have prizes.
(31000 - 21000)/12 * 0.09 = 75
(41000 - 21000)/12 * 0.09 = 150
All repayments are £24.19 than the plan 1, BUT with the far less penalising interest rates on those you can actually start to see the end of the road at some point in time.
I think the plan 1 system (With perhaps around £3000 PA fees) was far better and fairer to both student and taxpayer.
Be aware, its the ODC activities that could do it for Trump as much as the links with the foreign nation's government and intelligence services.
https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay
£25k - £30 per month
£30k - £67 per month
£50k - £217 per month
I notice that those with student debts from before 2012 have to start repayments when earning only £17,775. I can certainly see the two starting levels being equalised at some point.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2381451/Slough-spy-plane-detects-6-000-illegal-beds-sheds-thermal-imaging.html
A first step at reforming the current system would be to remove interest entirely, and have the treasury fill the gap.
The interest rate on the plan II debts though is a disgrace - its almost designed to get young people hooked into never repaying the whole debt.
And once people get used to never being clear of one sort of debt then they become more willing to never being able to clear other types of debt.
https://twitter.com/wtfrench76/status/884843331330740224
The migrants are the tortured child in Omelas
http://harelbarzilai.org/words/omelas.txt
‘Gay donkey raped my horse’ candidate runs for UKIP leader again.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/07/11/gay-donkey-raped-my-horse-candidate-runs-for-ukip-leader-again/
There has presumably been a huge government incentive to let sleeping dogs lie over this (suddenly a less available option post-Grenfell) because of the huge upward pressure on demand for housing and for housing benefit if you move everybody to somewhere habitable, legal and non-overcrowded.
' Only Scottish Labour gains from the Conservatives matter. If they gain from the SNP, it makes no difference to their prospect of forming a government.'
Felix said :
'I suspect they are unlikely whereas on current trends [ which of course may change] there are 5/6 more potential Scon gains from a weaker SNP. '
I suspect the Tories have pretty well reached their peak in Scotland. Indeed 4 or 5 of their gains from the SNP could well be vulnerable to Labour winning from third place next time as tactical voting unwinds.
The bravery of the Light Brigade should make you proud to be British.
The whole story is remarkably iffy. Stallions are a bugger to handle and on the whole you don't own them unless you are a professional breeder - you are highly unlikely to own one as "my horse" [by implication "my only horse"]. You are bloody careful what you put them in a field with, and especially you don't put them with another stallion (which presumably the horny donkey is meant to be, though geldings do sometimes have quite a lot of their mojo left). I don't actually believe any of it.
Also, is that the real Pink News? I ask because of the headline "Study finds heterosexual men find gay men as repulsive as rotting flesh." Surely shome mishtake?
But who needs the EU to do that when we are doing such a good job of punishing ourselves?
Is a public beheading the punishment if found guilty?
Pillock of Society
https://twitter.com/mikecolton/status/884843351479992321
Why, for example, is the government not only allowing, but also underwriting councils borrowing around £3bn per annum to speculate in commercial property, while severely restricting their ability to borrow to invest in council housing ?
This is because most students will never pay off all the accumulated capital/interest.
So he says don't take out a mortgage to pay off the student debt.
Don't forget 40% of people go to Uni nowadays. So not necessarily a high level of intelligence or numeracy.