If people genuinely think the rest of the world is closely following brexit soap opera think they are mistaken. There is far better entertainment on another channel...
The Donald will be sat on the Champs Elysee next week enjoying the sunshine with Macron while the british left tries to figure out whats going on
Yep, Macron has played it perfectly. First establish full independence from Trump by showing him, your domestic audience and international partners that you are not his patsy: see Macron at the NATO summit and his condemnation of US withdrawal from the Paris climate change accord; then give him the full treatment on the Champs Elysee on Bastille Day - equal partners, representing their countries - to take advantage of UK weakness and isolationism to build up French influence in Washington DC. Macron is one smart cookie. Shame May chose to prostrate herself at Trump's feet instead.
Well if and when Trump returns to the Paris accord and declares his love for the EU Macron can claim he has had real influence on Trump, until then it has been May who turned Trump away from Putin and towards NATO not Macron
I doubt either will have influence on him.
Trump is out of control, and isn't interested in listening to anyone who doesn't worship him and views relationships purely from a one-sided perspective. This is something I suspect Merkel has understood: soon other leaders in time will learn and realise that Trump is more a diffclut situation to be navigated than someone to have a productive relationship with.
If people genuinely think the rest of the world is closely following brexit soap opera think they are mistaken. There is far better entertainment on another channel...
The Donald will be sat on the Champs Elysee next week enjoying the sunshine with Macron while the british left tries to figure out whats going on
The British left think Macron is a Blairite not one of their own, they wanted Melenchon or Hamon to win
Exactly. Many of those ethnuastic about Macron (like myself) were not Corbynites. Indeed, many of them (Corbynites) see Macron as a neo-liberal. Some of Macron's biggest supporters included Chuka Umunna and George Osborne - not Paul Mason and Kerry Anne Mendoza.
@SouthamObserver If Macron was dealing with any other President, I'd agree it would be a perfect plan. But Trump is an erratic and implusive figure who doesn't do loyalty and much of a coherent policy on anything. Thus the idea that any single leader can influence him long-term is not really convincing. It's already been a struggle for Mattis and McMaster to carve out a long-term influence on Trump. Trump is the guy who can change his mind based on the last person he talked to.
Yes the Corbynistas are Melenchon and Sanders fans not Macron and Hillary fans, they may have preferred Macron to Le Pen and Fillon and Hillary to Trump but only with a peg on their noses
If people are betting on this it becomes rather important to know the status of the claims that the UK could unilaterally revoke the Article 50 process. Because otherwise suspending the process will require unanimous agreement, which might be much harder to achieve.
As Jolyon Maugham's legal bid to have this question clarified by the European Court of Justice was dropped in March, we don't have an authoritative ruling.
Shortly after the referendum my daughter sent me the authoritative ruing which she had to prepare for the clients of her law firm. Basically she said it will depend on the politics but there is nothing in Article 50 or any other EU condition to prevent the reversal of the process. In fact she opined that the whole tenor of the thing was aimed at keeping Nations in rather than out, so on balance you might say the chances of a reversal were pretty good, if everybody wants it.
When I mentioned it on this site previously, Sir Norfolk Passmore indicated his general agreement although he suspected she was following the characteristic leaning of British Law to look at the substance of the matter and allowing a fair bit of wiggle room for interpretation. In mainland Europe, however, a more formal approach tends to be followed, so maybe the EU would take a different view, but he agreed that in the end, the political will, or lack of it, would be decisive.
Article 50 can be revoked, but that revocation might be subject to a challenge at the CJEU. Then it would be up to the court's judges to decide. Given there is no precedent, it's hard to see how they could overule a political decision that all member states plus the UK would have had to agree to.
My original comment was about unilateral revocation. I think it's clear that the process can at least be suspended if there is unanimous agreement.
If people genuinely think the rest of the world is closely following brexit soap opera think they are mistaken. There is far better entertainment on another channel...
The Donald will be sat on the Champs Elysee next week enjoying the sunshine with Macron while the british left tries to figure out whats going on
The British left think Macron is a Blairite not one of their own, they wanted Melenchon or Hamon to win
Exactly. Many of those ethnuastic about Macron (like myself) were not Corbynites. Indeed, many of them (Corbynites) see Macron as a neo-liberal. Some of Macron's biggest supporters included Chuka Umunna and George Osborne - not Paul Mason and Kerry Anne Mendoza.
@SouthamObserver If Macron was dealing with any other President, I'd agree it would be a perfect plan. But Trump is an erratic and implusive figure who doesn't do loyalty and much of a coherent policy on anything. Thus the idea that any single leader can influence him long-term is not really convincing. It's already been a struggle for Mattis and McMaster to carve out a long-term influence on Trump. Trump is the guy who can change his mind based on the last person he talked to.
I doubt the visit is for Trump specifically, though he'll love the pageantary. France, like all other countries, needs a strong relationship with the US; the challenge in Europe is how to maintain one when domestic opinion is so hostile to the US head of state. The best chance you have is to demonstrate to a home audience you are not his patsy.
If people genuinely think the rest of the world is closely following brexit soap opera think they are mistaken. There is far better entertainment on another channel...
The Donald will be sat on the Champs Elysee next week enjoying the sunshine with Macron while the british left tries to figure out whats going on
The British left think Macron is a Blairite not one of their own, they wanted Melenchon or Hamon to win
Exactly. Many of those ethnuastic about Macron (like myself) were not Corbynites. Indeed, many of them (Corbynites) see Macron as a neo-liberal. Some of Macron's biggest supporters included Chuka Umunna and George Osborne - not Paul Mason and Kerry Anne Mendoza.
@SouthamObserver If Macron was dealing with any other President, I'd agree it would be a perfect plan. But Trump is an erratic and implusive figure who doesn't do loyalty and much of a coherent policy on anything. Thus the idea that any single leader can influence him long-term is not really convincing. It's already been a struggle for Mattis and McMaster to carve out a long-term influence on Trump. Trump is the guy who can change his mind based on the last person he talked to.
Yes the Corbynistas are Melenchon and Sanders fans not Macron and Hillary fans, they may have preferred Macron to Le Pen and Fillon and Hillary to Trump but only with a peg on their noses
Yannis Varoufakis of all people was having to lecture some on the Left as to why 'neo-liberal' Macron was a better option for France and the World than Marine Le Pen.
The facts are very simple. More youngster at uni any ever before, more youngsters from poorer backgrounds, more youngsters dropping out. Far less part-time mature students.
The original tweet was a lie.
Of course if Corbyn ever became PM we would almost certainly see student numbers fall sharply as the number of places would be cut to fit limited government spending.
If people are betting on this it becomes rather important to know the status of the claims that the UK could unilaterally revoke the Article 50 process. Because otherwise suspending the process will require unanimous agreement, which might be much harder to achieve.
As Jolyon Maugham's legal bid to have this question clarified by the European Court of Justice was dropped in March, we don't have an authoritative ruling.
Shortly after the referendum my daughter sent me the authoritative ruing which she had to prepare for the clients of her law firm. Basically she said it will depend on the politics but there is nothing in Article 50 or any other EU condition to prevent the reversal of the process. In fact she opined that the whole tenor of the thing was aimed at keeping Nations in rather than out, so on balance you might say the chances of a reversal were pretty good, if everybody wants it.
When I mentioned it on this site previously, Sir Norfolk Passmore indicated his general agreement although he suspected she was following the characteristic leaning of British Law to look at the substance of the matter and allowing a fair bit of wiggle room for interpretation. In mainland Europe, however, a more formal approach tends to be followed, so maybe the EU would take a different view, but he agreed that in the end, the political will, or lack of it, would be decisive.
Article 50 can be revoked, but that revocation might be subject to a challenge at the CJEU. Then it would be up to the court's judges to decide. Given there is no precedent, it's hard to see how they could overule a political decision that all member states plus the UK would have had to agree to. That said, it's pretty academic as there's a vanishingly small chance we will see A50 revoked. It would be much more productive to spend the remaining time before 29th March 2019 trying to salvage something from the wreckage of the government's Brexit strategy.
I am now increasingly confident that there will be no Brexit. It will not be because of T May or J Corbyn. The public will force this issue and Parliament will take care of this through another referendum even if neither of the two large parties formally agree with that.
If people genuinely think the rest of the world is closely following brexit soap opera think they are mistaken. There is far better entertainment on another channel...
The Donald will be sat on the Champs Elysee next week enjoying the sunshine with Macron while the british left tries to figure out whats going on
Yep, Macron has played it perfectly. First establish full independence from Trump by showing him, your domestic audience and international partners that you are not his patsy: see Macron at the NATO summit and his condemnation of US withdrawal from the Paris climate change accord; then give him the full treatment on the Champs Elysee on Bastille Day - equal partners, representing their countries - to take advantage of UK weakness and isolationism to build up French influence in Washington DC. Macron is one smart cookie. Shame May chose to prostrate herself at Trump's feet instead.
Well if and when Trump returns to the Paris accord and declares his love for the EU Macron can claim he has had real influence on Trump, until then it has been May who turned Trump away from Putin and towards NATO not Macron
I doubt either will have influence on him.
Trump is out of control, and isn't interested in listening to anyone who doesn't worship him and views relationships purely from a one-sided perspective. This is something I suspect Merkel has understood: soon other leaders in time will learn and realise that Trump is more a diffclut situation to be navigated than someone to have a productive relationship with.
Perhaps but May has had more success getting through to him than most, not that that is easy certsinly
If people are betting on this it becomes rather important to know the status of the claims that the UK could unilaterally revoke the Article 50 process. Because otherwise suspending the process will require unanimous agreement, which might be much harder to achieve.
As Jolyon Maugham's legal bid to have this question clarified by the European Court of Justice was dropped in March, we don't have an authoritative ruling.
Shortly after the referendum my daughter sent me the authoritative ruing which she had to prepare for the clients of her law firm.
I think you're using "authoritative" in a non-standard sense.
Tongue-in-cheek, Chris! It's my daughter, ffs, What parent ever listens to their children?!
Seriously, she actually wrote it within a few days and copied me in (somewhat illicitly, as I'm not a client) and I have to say it's proved as sound and accurate as most things I have read since.
Somebody hasn't read their link fully...applications from young people is not down at all, especially considering the numbers of 18 year olds in the population is slightly down.
It doesn't sound as though you read my comment properly. I was questioning Cooper's claim. He said "Application rates from low-income homes have never been higher". If overall UK application rates dropped by 5%, that seems unlikely, doesn't it?
He is replying to the tweet specifically about young people (it is also a reason why twiter is shit to have any sort of debate).
The original tweet is a lie.
I didn't express an opinion about the original tweet.
But unless something very strange has happened this year, it seems most unlikely that applications from low-income homes are at an all-time high, while the total number of applications has dropped by 5%.
Doesn't it?
You are pinhead dancing...
The facts are very simple. More youngster at uni any ever before, more youngsters from poorer backgrounds, more youngsters dropping out. Far less part-time mature students.
The original tweet was a lie.
To repeat - it's Cooper's I'm questioning.
It's quite possible for both Corbyn's tweet and Cooper's to be wrong. Surely that's not so hard for you to understand?
Mr. Recidivist, exit from the EU wasn't on the table as the EU didn't exist. As for leaving the EEC, the party proposing it was also far left (although Foot sounds like a far more decent man than the sort currently occupying the Labour leadership).
If people are betting on this it becomes rather important to know the status of the claims that the UK could unilaterally revoke the Article 50 process. Because otherwise suspending the process will require unanimous agreement, which might be much harder to achieve.
As Jolyon Maugham's legal bid to have this question clarified by the European Court of Justice was dropped in March, we don't have an authoritative ruling.
Shortly after the referendum my daughter sent me the authoritative ruing which she had to prepare for the clients of her law firm.
I think you're using "authoritative" in a non-standard sense.
Tongue-in-cheek, Chris! It's my daughter, ffs, What parent ever listens to their children?!
OK , sorry. It's difficult to tell what's a joke here sometimes.
Somebody hasn't read their link fully...applications from young people is not down at all, especially considering the numbers of 18 year olds in the population is slightly down.
It doesn't sound as though you read my comment properly. I was questioning Cooper's claim. He said "Application rates from low-income homes have never been higher". If overall UK application rates dropped by 5%, that seems unlikely, doesn't it?
He is replying to the tweet specifically about young people (it is also a reason why twiter is shit to have any sort of debate).
The original tweet is a lie.
I didn't express an opinion about the original tweet.
But unless something very strange has happened this year, it seems most unlikely that applications from low-income homes are at an all-time high, while the total number of applications has dropped by 5%.
Doesn't it?
You are pinhead dancing...
The facts are very simple. More youngster at uni any ever before, more youngsters from poorer backgrounds, more youngsters dropping out. Far less part-time mature students.
The original tweet was a lie.
There is no proof that there are more from poorer backgrounds.
If people are betting on this it becomes rather important to know the status of the claims that the UK could unilaterally revoke the Article 50 process. Because otherwise suspending the process will require unanimous agreement, which might be much harder to achieve.
As Jolyon Maugham's legal bid to have this question clarified by the European Court of Justice was dropped in March, we don't have an authoritative ruling.
Shortly after the referendum my daughter sent me the authoritative ruing which she had to prepare for the clients of her law firm. Basically she said it will depend on the politics but there is nothing in Article 50 or any other EU condition to prevent the reversal of the process. In fact she opined that the whole tenor of the thing was aimed at keeping Nations in rather than out, so on balance you might say the chances of a reversal were pretty good, if everybody wants it.
When I mentioned it on this site previously, Sir Norfolk Passmore indicated his general agreement although he suspected she was following the characteristic leaning of British Law to look at the substance of the matter and allowing a fair bit of wiggle room for interpretation. In mainland Europe, however, a more formal approach tends to be followed, so maybe the EU would take a different view, but he agreed that in the end, the political will, or lack of it, would be decisive.
Article 50 can be revoked, but that revocation might be subject to a challenge at the CJEU. Then it would be up to the court's judges to decide. Given there is no precedent, it's hard to see how they could overule a political decision that all member states plus the UK would have had to agree to. That said, it's pretty academic as there's a vanishingly small chance we will see A50 revoked. It would be much more productive to spend the remaining time before 29th March 2019 trying to salvage something from the wreckage of the government's Brexit strategy.
I am now increasingly confident that there will be no Brexit. It will not be because of T May or J Corbyn. The public will force this issue and Parliament will take care of this through another referendum even if neither of the two large parties formally agree with that.
It would be fun if we changed our minds on Brexit but the Eurocrats insisted that we must leave.
I doubt the visit is for Trump specifically, though he'll love the pageantary. France, like all other countries, needs a strong relationship with the US; the challenge in Europe is how to maintain one when domestic opinion is so hostile to the US head of state. The best chance you have is to demonstrate to a home audience you are not his patsy.
I don't think the visit is for Trump specifically either. My point is that influencing someone like Trump in order to gain influence in Washington DC is hard because of the personality type Trump is. Trump is not an individual who is really going to go out of his way to make productive relationships with other world leaders working on common and shared interests. Trump is an erratic and impulsive man who views things purely in the narrow context of winning and losing. Thus while Macron may possess the pragmatism, desire to compromise and diplomacy needed to have productive relationships with other world leaders Trump does not: which means actually having a working relationship with him will be very hard in the long term. This is why Trump is such a big disaster for the Americans. He has no real strategic plan or aim for anything and his character is just so ill suited to being President.
If people are betting on this it becomes rather important to know the status of the claims that the UK could unilaterally revoke the Article 50 process. Because otherwise suspending the process will require unanimous agreement, which might be much harder to achieve.
As Jolyon Maugham's legal bid to have this question clarified by the European Court of Justice was dropped in March, we don't have an authoritative ruling.
Shortly after the referendum my daughter sent me the authoritative ruing which she had to prepare for the clients of her law firm. Basically she said it will depend on the politics but there is nothing in Article 50 or any other EU condition to prevent the reversal of the process. In fact she opined that the whole tenor of the thing was aimed at keeping Nations in rather than out, so on balance you might say the chances of a reversal were pretty good, if everybody wants it.
When I mentioned it on this site previously, Sir Norfolk Passmore indicated his general agreement although he suspected she was following the characteristic leaning of British Law to look at the substance of the matter and allowing a fair bit of wiggle room for interpretation. In mainland Europe, however, a more formal approach tends to be followed, so maybe the EU would take a different view, but he agreed that in the end, the political will, or lack of it, would be decisive.
Article 50 can be revoked, but that revocation might be subject to a challenge at the CJEU. Then it would be up to the court's judges to decide. Given there is no precedent, it's hard to see how they could overule a political decision that all member states plus the UK would have had to agree to.
My original comment was about unilateral revocation. I think it's clear that the process can at least be suspended if there is unanimous agreement.
Sorry, I missed that. My guess is that might be tricky. Practically speaking, if member states decided that they actually want the UK to leave now that we've triggered A50 we'd have a hell of a job staying on. Again, it would end up at the CJEU - this time with member states arguing against us. Would we really want to revoke that much?
If people genuinely think the rest of the world is closely following brexit soap opera think they are mistaken. There is far better entertainment on another channel...
The Donald will be sat on the Champs Elysee next week enjoying the sunshine with Macron while the british left tries to figure out whats going on
The British left think Macron is a Blairite not one of their own, they wanted Melenchon or Hamon to win
Exactly. Many of those ethnuastic about Macron (like myself) were not Corbynites. Indeed, many of them (Corbynites) see Macron as a neo-liberal. Some of Macron's biggest supporters included Chuka Umunna and George Osborne - not Paul Mason and Kerry Anne Mendoza.
@SouthamObserver If Macron was dealing with any other President, I'd agree it would be a perfect plan. But Trump is an erratic and implusive figure who doesn't do loyalty and much of a coherent policy on anything. Thus the idea that any single leader can influence him long-term is not really convincing. It's already been a struggle for Mattis and McMaster to carve out a long-term influence on Trump. Trump is the guy who can change his mind based on the last person he talked to.
Yes the Corbynistas are Melenchon and Sanders fans not Macron and Hillary fans, they may have preferred Macron to Le Pen and Fillon and Hillary to Trump but only with a peg on their noses
Yannis Varoufakis of all people was having to lecture some on the Left as to why 'neo-liberal' Macron was a better option for France and the World than Marine Le Pen.
Indeed which is why I think the biggest challenge to Macron will now come from Melenchon and the hard left, not FN or French conservatives who are both still licking their wounds from the presidential and legislative elections while Melenchon and his party did better than expected
I doubt the visit is for Trump specifically, though he'll love the pageantary. France, like all other countries, needs a strong relationship with the US; the challenge in Europe is how to maintain one when domestic opinion is so hostile to the US head of state. The best chance you have is to demonstrate to a home audience you are not his patsy.
I don't think the visit is for Trump specifically either. My point is that influencing someone like Trump in order to gain influence in Washington DC is hard because of the personality type Trump is. Trump is not an individual who is really going to go out of his way to make productive relationships with other world leaders working on common and shared interests. Trump is an erratic and impulsive man who views things purely in the narrow context of winning and losing. Thus while Macron many possess the pragmatism, desire to compromise and diplomacy needed to have productive relationships with other world leaders Trump does not: which means actually havinga working relationship with him will be very hard in the long term. This is why Trump is such a big disaster for the Americans. He has no real strategic plan or aim for anything and his character is just so ill suited to being President.
Fair points - but you still have to try; and that means working out the best way of succeeding. I'd say the Macron approach probably has a better chance than the May one.
Mr. Recidivist, exit from the EU wasn't on the table as the EU didn't exist. As for leaving the EEC, the party proposing it was also far left (although Foot sounds like a far more decent man than the sort currently occupying the Labour leadership).
Well if your suggestion is that people would have voted to leave the European project in 1983, but were put off by Labour's other policies, well you might be right. But if so, they can't have been all that fussed about EEC membership.
Somebody hasn't read their link fully...applications from young people is not down at all, especially considering the numbers of 18 year olds in the population is slightly down.
It doesn't sound as though you read my comment properly. I was questioning Cooper's claim. He said "Application rates from low-income homes have never been higher". If overall UK application rates dropped by 5%, that seems unlikely, doesn't it?
He is replying to the tweet specifically about young people (it is also a reason why twiter is shit to have any sort of debate).
The original tweet is a lie.
I didn't express an opinion about the original tweet.
But unless something very strange has happened this year, it seems most unlikely that applications from low-income homes are at an all-time high, while the total number of applications has dropped by 5%.
Doesn't it?
You are pinhead dancing...
The facts are very simple. More youngster at uni any ever before, more youngsters from poorer backgrounds, more youngsters dropping out. Far less part-time mature students.
The original tweet was a lie.
There is no proof that there are more from poorer backgrounds.
So the SNP is advocating working class taxpayers pay the fees of economics and law graduates who become investment bankers and corporate lawyers?
I think it's time to consider moving to a graduate tax system, the more you earn the more you pay, with a cap.
We need to have caps.....
Not too different from the current system, although I would advocate keeping interest at RPI.
It's the interest rate that makes current student loans iniquitous - I would like a system where everyone gets a shot at university or professional training - what Danes call an uddanelse - better loans and support at zero real interest for people to train into a skilled job or go to university would provide a much fairer approach than the current system.
If people are betting on this it becomes rather important to know the status of the claims that the UK could unilaterally revoke the Article 50 process. Because otherwise suspending the process will require unanimous agreement, which might be much harder to achieve.
As Jolyon Maugham's legal bid to have this question clarified by the European Court of Justice was dropped in March, we don't have an authoritative ruling.
Shortly after the referendum my daughter sent me the authoritative ruing which she had to prepare for the clients of her law firm. Basically she said it will depend on the politics but there is nothing in Article 50 or any other EU condition to prevent the reversal of the process. In fact she opined that the whole tenor of the thing was aimed at keeping Nations in rather than out, so on balance you might say the chances of a reversal were pretty good, if everybody wants it.
When I mentioned it on this site previously, Sir Norfolk Passmore indicated his general agreement although he suspected she was following the characteristic leaning of British Law to look at the substance of the matter and allowing a fair bit of wiggle room for interpretation. In mainland Europe, however, a more formal approach tends to be followed, so maybe the EU would take a different view, but he agreed that in the end, the political will, or lack of it, would be decisive.
Article 50 can be revoked, but that revocation might be subject to a challenge at the CJEU. Then it would be up to the court's judges to decide. Given there is no precedent, it's hard to see how they could overule a political decision that all member states plus the UK would have had to agree to. That said, it's pretty academic as there's a vanishingly small chance we will see A50 revoked. It would be much more productive to spend the remaining time before 29th March 2019 trying to salvage something from the wreckage of the government's Brexit strategy.
I am now increasingly confident that there will be no Brexit. It will not be because of T May or J Corbyn. The public will force this issue and Parliament will take care of this through another referendum even if neither of the two large parties formally agree with that.
It would be fun if we changed our minds on Brexit but the Eurocrats insisted that we must leave.
If revocation is agreed by unanimity, then there could be trouble ahead..........
If there were to be another referendum I would expect that people generally would expect large changes to require consensus in the future. Whatever the outcome of euroref2.
A successful Brexit, ironically, might be the best way to keep Indyref2 alive. The bigger the fuckup is, the more people will say "no more of this bollocks."
Mr. Recidivist, the 1983 election predated the EU, *and* Labour were very left wing. Using an election prior to the EU's existence to suggest people weren't that bothered about leaving the EU is chronologically unorthodox.
So the SNP is advocating working class taxpayers pay the fees of economics and law graduates who become investment bankers and corporate lawyers?
I think it's time to consider moving to a graduate tax system, the more you earn the more you pay, with a cap.
We need to have caps.....
Not too different from the current system, although I would advocate keeping interest at RPI.
The current system is a loan/debt.
Tax is different, it's more progressive and won't hinder you from borrowing more money.
Remember a lot of people also need maintenance loans on top, that much debt is daunting, and many tuition loans are not paid back making the current system not worth it.
Indeed which is why I think the biggest challenge to Macron will now come from Melenchon and the hard left, not FN or French conservatives who are both still licking their wounds from the presidential and legislative elections while Melenchon and his party did better than expected
Yes, I'd agree with that. One of the most interesting developments to happen in the aftermath of the Presidental Election is Marion Maréchal-Le Pen quitting politics. She was tipped to be Marine Le Pen's eventual successor, and was talked of 'highly' on here in regards to electoral appeal. It does seem that the French just do not like Marine Le Pen and no matter what are going always go lengths to stop her from getting in power (thankfully). So I actually don't think FN have a 'great' future going forward. I also don't see where les Republicains go from here either, and the French Socialist Party is dead. So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
So the SNP is advocating working class taxpayers pay the fees of economics and law graduates who become investment bankers and corporate lawyers?
I think it's time to consider moving to a graduate tax system, the more you earn the more you pay, with a cap.
We need to have caps.....
Not too different from the current system, although I would advocate keeping interest at RPI.
The current system is a loan/debt.
Tax is different, it's more progressive and won't hinder you from borrowing more money.
Remember a lot of people also need maintenance loans on top, that much debt is daunting, and many tuition loans are not paid back making the current system not worth it.
The current debt doesn't affect your credit rating. A graduate tax would have a similar impact on your disposable income, so that also wouldn't change anything.
It is somewhat progressive in that the poorest never repay. Labours current policy is the regressive one, with poorer taxpayers picking up the tab for middle class and wealthy kids to go to uni.
Mr. rkrkrk, it's a Kobo-specific problem. A while ago it turned out one writer had been self-publishing what might be called extreme adult books. This led Kobo to stop selling every self-publishing book it had stocked at the time, including two of mine (both available via that link). Tried unpublishing and re-publishing but it didn't work.
Mr. Recidivist, the 1983 election predated the EU, *and* Labour were very left wing. Using an election prior to the EU's existence to suggest people weren't that bothered about leaving the EU is chronologically unorthodox.
I anticipated your pedantry and was careful to include the description EEC. As we all know, the EU was created as a development from the EEC with the full co-operation of the UK as a member, and very influential member at that. The EU is something we as a country helped to create. If people no longer want to be part of it, well that is democracy. But you can't rewrite history to suggest that it was something imposed on us or that we were dragged into against our will. And it sure as heck wasn't something that we were conned into without our knowledge or consent.
Mr. Recidivist, the 1983 election predated the EU, *and* Labour were very left wing. Using an election prior to the EU's existence to suggest people weren't that bothered about leaving the EU is chronologically unorthodox.
The EEC in 1983 had a parliament, court of justice, commission and council of ministers. All the essential political elements that you now find so objectionable. The argument that it was something entirely different in character is sophistry.
Mr. Recidivist, England was a development of Wessex. The two are not synonymous.
When the political class agree they can impose things the general public do not want, whether that's the EU, the Lisbon Treaty, or the 0.7% guaranteed spending on foreign aid. On the sole occasion when the people were asked their view on the EU, they opted to leave.
Indeed which is why I think the biggest challenge to Macron will now come from Melenchon and the hard left, not FN or French conservatives who are both still licking their wounds from the presidential and legislative elections while Melenchon and his party did better than expected
Yes, I'd agree with that. One of the most interesting developments to happen in the aftermath of the Presidental Election is Marion Maréchal-Le Pen quitting politics. She was tipped to be Marine Le Pen's eventual successor, and was talked of 'highly' on here in regards to electoral appeal. It does seem that the French just do not like Marine Le Pen and no matter what are going always go lengths to stop her from getting in power (thankfully). So I actually don't think FN have a 'great' future going forward. I also don't see where les Republicains go from here either, and the French Socialist Party is dead. So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
Le Pen's ceiling is about a third of the vote, Melenchon's is about 45 to 50%, after the rise of right-wing populism, UKIP and Brexit, Trump and Le Pen has begun to fade so the rise of left-wing populism, Corbyn, Sanders and Melenchon has replaced it
Indeed which is why I think the biggest challenge to Macron will now come from Melenchon and the hard left, not FN or French conservatives who are both still licking their wounds from the presidential and legislative elections while Melenchon and his party did better than expected
Yes, I'd agree with that. One of the most interesting developments to happen in the aftermath of the Presidental Election is Marion Maréchal-Le Pen quitting politics. She was tipped to be Marine Le Pen's eventual successor, and was talked of 'highly' on here in regards to electoral appeal. It does seem that the French just do not like Marine Le Pen and no matter what are going always go lengths to stop her from getting in power (thankfully). So I actually don't think FN have a 'great' future going forward. I also don't see where les Republicains go from here either, and the French Socialist Party is dead. So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
Well Denis Healey did manage 98% at one point - but that was on investment income, not salaries. Even Corbyn... having had the sense to set the 'acceptable' level of earnings at what he gets himself... would be hit by the Melenchon level of tax.
Anyone know the French for 'until the pips squeak' ?
Indeed which is why I think the biggest challenge to Macron will now come from Melenchon and the hard left, not FN or French conservatives who are both still licking their wounds from the presidential and legislative elections while Melenchon and his party did better than expected
Yes, I'd agree with that. One of the most interesting developments to happen in the aftermath of the Presidental Election is Marion Maréchal-Le Pen quitting politics. She was tipped to be Marine Le Pen's eventual successor, and was talked of 'highly' on here in regards to electoral appeal. It does seem that the French just do not like Marine Le Pen and no matter what are going always go lengths to stop her from getting in power (thankfully). So I actually don't think FN have a 'great' future going forward. I also don't see where les Republicains go from here either, and the French Socialist Party is dead. So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
Le Pen's ceiling is about a third of the vote, Melenchon's is about 45 to 50%, after the rise of right-wing populism, UKIP and Brexit, Trump and Le Pen has begun to fade so the rise of left-wing populism, Corbyn, Sanders and Melenchon has replaced it
Tbf, I find it hard to bracket Sanders in with Corbyn and Melenchon. While Sanders may be seen as extreme in the American context, in Europe he would basically be a bog standard social democrat. It's Corbyn and Melenchon who are much more Left than many social democratic/socialist parties in Europe and in the Western world generally.
So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
Le Pen's ceiling is about a third of the vote, Melenchon's is about 45 to 50%, after the rise of right-wing populism, UKIP and Brexit, Trump and Le Pen has begun to fade so the rise of left-wing populism, Corbyn, Sanders and Melenchon has replaced it
I must say I drew the line at Melanchon's platform. There's progressive, there's daring, and there's nuts.
Indeed which is why I think the biggest challenge to Macron will now come from Melenchon and the hard left, not FN or French conservatives who are both still licking their wounds from the presidential and legislative elections while Melenchon and his party did better than expected
Yes, I'd agree with that. One of the most interesting developments to happen in the aftermath of the Presidental Election is Marion Maréchal-Le Pen quitting politics. She was tipped to be Marine Le Pen's eventual successor, and was talked of 'highly' on here in regards to electoral appeal. It does seem that the French just do not like Marine Le Pen and no matter what are going always go lengths to stop her from getting in power (thankfully). So I actually don't think FN have a 'great' future going forward. I also don't see where les Republicains go from here either, and the French Socialist Party is dead. So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
Le Pen's ceiling is about a third of the vote, Melenchon's is about 45 to 50%, after the rise of right-wing populism, UKIP and Brexit, Trump and Le Pen has begun to fade so the rise of left-wing populism, Corbyn, Sanders and Melenchon has replaced it
Tbf, I find it hard to bracket Sanders in with Corbyn and Melenchon. While Sanders may be seen as extreme in the American context, in Europe he would basically be a bog standard social democrat. It's Corbyn and Melenchon who are much more Left than many social democratic/socialist parties in Europe and in the Western world generally.
In the US context Sanders would be the most left-wing candidate ever nominated by the Democratic Party now while of course US politics is right of UK and certainly French politics he is part of the same trend as Corbyn and Melenchon
So the SNP is advocating working class taxpayers pay the fees of economics and law graduates who become investment bankers and corporate lawyers?
I think it's time to consider moving to a graduate tax system, the more you earn the more you pay, with a cap.
We need to have caps.....
Not too different from the current system, although I would advocate keeping interest at RPI.
The current system is a loan/debt.
Tax is different, it's more progressive and won't hinder you from borrowing more money.
Remember a lot of people also need maintenance loans on top, that much debt is daunting, and many tuition loans are not paid back making the current system not worth it.
The current debt doesn't affect your credit rating. A graduate tax would have a similar impact on your disposable income, so that also wouldn't change anything.
It is somewhat progressive in that the poorest never repay. Labours current policy is the regressive one, with poorer taxpayers picking up the tab for middle class and wealthy kids to go to uni.
The adults screwing up the economy and lumping the costs onto the kids is not progressive.
So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
Le Pen's ceiling is about a third of the vote, Melenchon's is about 45 to 50%, after the rise of right-wing populism, UKIP and Brexit, Trump and Le Pen has begun to fade so the rise of left-wing populism, Corbyn, Sanders and Melenchon has replaced it
I must say I drew the line at Melanchon's platform. There's progressive, there's daring, and there's nuts.
Agreed but almost 20% of French voters have already voted for Melenchon's platform and at the next presentatial election he will be the change candidate while Macron will be the establishment candidate
So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
Le Pen's ceiling is about a third of the vote, Melenchon's is about 45 to 50%, after the rise of right-wing populism, UKIP and Brexit, Trump and Le Pen has begun to fade so the rise of left-wing populism, Corbyn, Sanders and Melenchon has replaced it
I must say I drew the line at Melanchon's platform. There's progressive, there's daring, and there's nuts.
so why did you go with Corbyn? his financial platform is nuts.
Not sure that we'll be bound by EU law after we have left
The deal will be the EU giving the UK a market for its fish* for the UK giving EU fishermen access to its waters. It will be a haggle.
* I think about 80% of UK caught fish is sold on the continent.
Edit. The UK Government ALWAYS trades fishermens' rights for other things we want. I doubt there will be much change post-Brexit.
What fraction of that is caught by UK fishermen?
Quite low, not least because those UK fishermen have sold their licences to foreigners. As I say, given the need for a market, the UK government using fishing rights as a bargaining chip for other things (no change there) and the need for commonly managed fishing stocks, I don't expect a huge change after Brexit. Maybe our fishermen will get something because they are high profile amongst Leavers.
So it can only be Melechon. I still can't believe that 100% tax on wages above 33,0000 euros he is proposing. WTH? 100% Tax - how can that even be a thing....
Le Pen's ceiling is about a third of the vote, Melenchon's is about 45 to 50%, after the rise of right-wing populism, UKIP and Brexit, Trump and Le Pen has begun to fade so the rise of left-wing populism, Corbyn, Sanders and Melenchon has replaced it
I must say I drew the line at Melanchon's platform. There's progressive, there's daring, and there's nuts.
so why did you go with Corbyn? his financial platform is nuts.
I fear we disagree, as per usual. But if he proposed 100% taxation I'd agree with you...
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
My impression is that most foreigners don't think much about Britain at all (the idea that everyone else is agonising over Brexit is solipsism). If they do, however, they feel a mixture of amusement, sympathy and bafflement, in varying proportions. A new referendum reversing the decision would be seen as a return to rationality, albeit a somewhat embarrassing one. I don't expect it to happen, though, unless - as Alastair says - the proportion against moves closer to 2-1.
Why is it "rational" to want to be be ruled by a foreign power?
The EU is a partnership we chose to join, not a foreign power.
If we'd vetoed Spain's accession in the 80s I imagine Geoff would see things differently.
I've not considered that scenario, to be fair. I don't see what difference it would have made - they were dirty lazy bastards beforehand and joining the EU didn't change that.
The last 32 years have been pretty good for Spain. They've gone from 55% of the GDP per head of Italy to 95%. They've seen the biggest percentage increase in employment anywhere in the developed world. They have produced the world's best mass market fashion retailer, and two top tier technology companies (admittedly they are two of the top three firms in the transport and travel vertical). Spaniards live longer, have more savings and are massively more prosperous than 32 years ago.
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
My impression is that most foreigners don't think much about Britain at all (the idea that everyone else is agonising over Brexit is solipsism). If they do, however, they feel a mixture of amusement, sympathy and bafflement, in varying proportions. A new referendum reversing the decision would be seen as a return to rationality, albeit a somewhat embarrassing one. I don't expect it to happen, though, unless - as Alastair says - the proportion against moves closer to 2-1.
Why is it "rational" to want to be be ruled by a foreign power?
The EU is a partnership we chose to join, not a foreign power.
If we'd vetoed Spain's accession in the 80s I imagine Geoff would see things differently.
I've not considered that scenario, to be fair. I don't see what difference it would have made - they were dirty lazy bastards beforehand and joining the EU didn't change that.
As a matter of interest, how would you feel if there was a poster on the site who claimed that Jews were "dirty lazy bastards"?
Somebody hasn't read their link fully...applications from young people is not down at all, especially considering the numbers of 18 year olds in the population is slightly down.
It doesn't sound as though you read my comment properly. I was questioning Cooper's claim. He said "Application rates from low-income homes have never been higher". If overall UK application rates dropped by 5%, that seems unlikely, doesn't it?
He is replying to the tweet specifically about young people (it is also a reason why twiter is shit to have any sort of debate).
The original tweet is a lie.
I didn't express an opinion about the original tweet.
But unless something very strange has happened this year, it seems most unlikely that applications from low-income homes are at an all-time high, while the total number of applications has dropped by 5%.
Doesn't it?
The circle could be squared by a massive increase in the proportion of homes in the country that are low income :-)
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
I thought that article was pish when I first read it and still do.
I detest the orange order and the DUP on their own merits of shittery not their location or ethnicity.
Fuck me, if Muslims were marching around singing songs about being up to their knees in Christian blood this place would be rightly going mental.
Some good honest anti-Catholic hatred though and everyone is bezzie mates.
This place doesn't really even go that mental or acknowledge there is a problem when Muslims are actually slashing the throats of Christians in the streets, let alone singing about their blood, so I don't think that comparison works
In it, Gaitskill said that if we join the EU it means 'the end of Britain as an independent European state. I make no apology for repeating it. It means the end of a thousand years of history. You may say: "Let it end." But, my goodness, it is a decision that needs a little care and thought.'
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
----
@RobD You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
The EU will be a lot clearer about membership benefits and obligations than they were when they negotiated EEA and the Swiss bilaterals. Then the assumption was those countries were moving towards full membership so they fudged it.
Countries can clearly manage outside the EU. However our every major neighbour is in the EU or part of its system. If we want a continuity of our lifestyles we have no choice but to deal with the EU on its terms.
Remainers have been looking for a opinion poll to hook a reversal of Brexit upon for over a year now, so they must be pleased with this one.
I don't know what will happen in the medium-term: I could see anything from a sensible Brexit that leads us to a new stable settlement outside the EU, that is politically accepted within the UK and proves to be economically neutral, to political support for Brexit collapsing, a coincident recession at the same time, and then the UK re-signing up to full EU membership in another 5 years, but this time with all the bells and whistles.
After the last few weeks, I'm not making any predictions. But, if that did happen, I would give up on politics for good.
I couldn't take my life-long dream dissolving in my face, and then backfiring, the gloating that would ensue, or another generation of feverish ruptures in the Conservative Party, and life's far too short for me to spend the rest of my life being disappointed and miserable.
I'd turn my attention to spending more time with my family and dogs, and staying out of history's way.
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
The UK isn't any country. The UK is a post-imperial European country ravaged by two world wars and haunted by its loss of status. To turn its back on the EU is even more of a denial of its interests as for Russia to cling to Putin in an attempt to regain lost influence.
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
The UK isn't any country. The UK is a post-imperial European country ravaged by two world wars and haunted by its loss of status. To turn its back on the EU is even more of a denial of its interests as for Russia to cling to Putin in an attempt to regain lost influence.
Although TBF our misguided attitude to the EU has more to do with our relative absence of ravagement
Remainers have been looking for a opinion poll to hook a reversal of Brexit upon for over a year now, so they must be pleased with this one.
I don't know what will happen in the medium-term: I could see anything from a sensible Brexit that leads us to a new stable settlement outside the EU, that is politically accepted within the UK and proves to be economically neutral, to political support for Brexit collapsing, a coincident recession at the same time, and then the UK re-signing up to full EU membership in another 5 years, but this time with all the bells and whistles.
After the last few weeks, I'm not making any predictions. But, if that did happen, I would give up on politics for good.
I couldn't take my life-long dream dissolving in my face, and then backfiring, the gloating that would ensue, or another generation of feverish ruptures in the Conservative Party, and life's far too short for me to spend the rest of my life being disappointed and miserable.
I'd turn my attention to spending more time with my family and dogs, and staying out of history's way.
Here we go, British officials drop 'cake and eat it' approach to Brexit negotiations.
British officials have quietly abandoned hope of securing the government’s promised “cake and eat it” Brexit deal, increasingly accepting the inevitability of a painful trade-off between market access and political control when the UK leaves the EU.
Government insiders report a dramatic change of mood at the Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) since the general election, with growing Treasury influence helping force ministers to choose between prioritising economic interests or sovereignty.
This is in stark contrast to the public position of both main political parties, first set out in the Theresa May’s Lancaster House speech in January, in which she echoed Boris Johnson’s boast that Britain can “have its cake and eat it” – enjoying full trade access without conceding over immigration, courts and payments. Labour’s Jeremy Corbyn sacked three shadow ministers on Thursday for departing from a similar position.
Yet UK civil servants are now said to be presenting ministers with a more binary choice: accept political compromises similar to aspects of the European Economic Area (EEA), or settle for a much more limited trade deal such as the recent EU-Canada free trade agreement (Ceta).
“We have a problem in that really there are only two viable options,” one official told the Guardian. “One is a high-access, low-control arrangement which looks a bit like the EEA. The other is a low-access, high-control arrangement where you eventually end up looking like Ceta – a more classic free trade agreement, if you are lucky.
“Of course the policy position remains the Lancaster House speech which says what we want is a high-access, high-control situation, but the author of that speech [reported to be Downing Street adviser Nick Timothy] is no longer in an influential position.”
Remainers have been looking for a opinion poll to hook a reversal of Brexit upon for over a year now, so they must be pleased with this one.
I don't know what will happen in the medium-term: I could see anything from a sensible Brexit that leads us to a new stable settlement outside the EU, that is politically accepted within the UK and proves to be economically neutral, to political support for Brexit collapsing, a coincident recession at the same time, and then the UK re-signing up to full EU membership in another 5 years, but this time with all the bells and whistles.
After the last few weeks, I'm not making any predictions. But, if that did happen, I would give up on politics for good.
I couldn't take my life-long dream dissolving in my face, and then backfiring, the gloating that would ensue, or another generation of feverish ruptures in the Conservative Party, and life's far too short for me to spend the rest of my life being disappointed and miserable.
I'd turn my attention to spending more time with my family and dogs, and staying out of history's way.
Admirable sentiments, if I may so, that we could all do with considering when things don't go our way politically. I shall try to do similar if the full-on no-deal brexit occurs.
Remainers have been looking for a opinion poll to hook a reversal of Brexit upon for over a year now, so they must be pleased with this one.
I don't know what will happen in the medium-term: I could see anything from a sensible Brexit that leads us to a new stable settlement outside the EU, that is politically accepted within the UK and proves to be economically neutral, to political support for Brexit collapsing, a coincident recession at the same time, and then the UK re-signing up to full EU membership in another 5 years, but this time with all the bells and whistles.
After the last few weeks, I'm not making any predictions. But, if that did happen, I would give up on politics for good.
I couldn't take my life-long dream dissolving in my face, and then backfiring, the gloating that would ensue, or another generation of feverish ruptures in the Conservative Party, and life's far too short for me to spend the rest of my life being disappointed and miserable.
I'd turn my attention to spending more time with my family and dogs, and staying out of history's way.
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
The UK isn't any country. The UK is a post-imperial European country ravaged by two world wars and haunted by its loss of status. To turn its back on the EU is even more of a denial of its interests as for Russia to cling to Putin in an attempt to regain lost influence.
All other major European countries had empires, the UK was neither invaded nor nuked in either WW so is comfortably down the list as far as ravagement goes, and I have never believed this mourning for a lost empire thing. Kipling was already in 1899 asking the USA to take over the white man's burden on the basis that we'd had enough of it, and from what I know of my grandparents' generation (I am 55) they bloody hated it, because they all had to do jobs as middle-ranking civil servants and tea traders in bloody horrible (to them) places like Bombay, and lived for their 3 weeks home leave every 3 years.
It is excellent news the UK government is leaving the fisheries convention and plans to take back control of our waters. If this government is truly going to be one that puts working people first, there is no more hard done by group in our country than fishermen, whether from Cornwall, Northumbria or Scotland.
I was worried such a politically marginalised group would have fallen by the wayside, but it is a sign of a refocused Conservative Party that they are sticking up for the little guy here. When you have everyone from UKIP to the SNP backing you, you know you're truly representing British interests.
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
The UK isn't any country. The UK is a post-imperial European country ravaged by two world wars and haunted by its loss of status. To turn its back on the EU is even more of a denial of its interests as for Russia to cling to Putin in an attempt to regain lost influence.
By almost any historical measure the UK is a remarkably successful, free, and pleasant country.
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
The UK isn't any country. The UK is a post-imperial European country ravaged by two world wars and haunted by its loss of status. To turn its back on the EU is even more of a denial of its interests as for Russia to cling to Putin in an attempt to regain lost influence.
If being ravaged entails standing up for freedom, helping set up dozens of democracies and liberating a continent from one of the most evil regimes the world has ever seen, we could do with being ravaged a little more often. I think our victories against the Second and Third Reichs are very proud moments in our history, whether or not many on the left think badly of them.
The contrast between football and rugby is stark. Yesterday in Wellington, the ref looked at the replay of Williams's shoulder charge and gave a red card without any fuss. Tonight an elbow is clearly swung by a player and the ref bottles it and shows a yellow card.
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
The UK isn't any country. The UK is a post-imperial European country ravaged by two world wars and haunted by its loss of status. To turn its back on the EU is even more of a denial of its interests as for Russia to cling to Putin in an attempt to regain lost influence.
If being ravaged entails standing up for freedom, helping set up dozens of democracies and liberating a continent from one of the most evil regimes the world has ever seen, we could do with being ravaged a little more often. I think our victories against the Second and Third Reichs are very proud moments in our history, whether or not many on the left think badly of them.
I think you'll find it was the left that stood most vehemently against the 3rd Reich... The conservatives, Daily Mail etc. (with the notable worthy exception of Churchill) were all for appeasement until there was no option.
"Conservatives spent £20,000 to fly DUP leader Arlene Foster to Belfast on an RAF plane after talks in Downing Street despite a range of available commercial flights being available"
O/T Barnier is clearly aiming for the EC President job after Juncker goes.
If he is, that's good news for Britain. He'll want a deal that he can sell as a success.
I would agree with that. More precisely I think he wants Britain to leave the EU with as little damage to the EU as possible. It's not quite the same, but a deal is part of that damage minimisation.
He will also seek to use the negotiations to expose the benefits of retaining full membership at every turn. The contradictions of Brexit will be mercilessly exposed for the world to see, so that nobody can be in any doubt that the UK is engaged in a pointless act of insanity.
You do have to wonder how any country manages outside of the EU.
The UK isn't any country. The UK is a post-imperial European country ravaged by two world wars and haunted by its loss of status. To turn its back on the EU is even more of a denial of its interests as for Russia to cling to Putin in an attempt to regain lost influence.
If being ravaged entails standing up for freedom, helping set up dozens of democracies and liberating a continent from one of the most evil regimes the world has ever seen, we could do with being ravaged a little more often. I think our victories against the Second and Third Reichs are very proud moments in our history, whether or not many on the left think badly of them.
I think you'll find it was the left that stood most vehemently against the 3rd Reich... The conservatives, Daily Mail etc. (with the notable worthy exception of Churchill) were all for appeasement until there was no option.
Some of the Left did. People like George Lansbury and the PPU were staunchly pro-appeasement.
"Conservatives spent £20,000 to fly DUP leader Arlene Foster to Belfast on an RAF plane after talks in Downing Street despite a range of available commercial flights being available"
"Conservatives spent £20,000 to fly DUP leader Arlene Foster to Belfast on an RAF plane after talks in Downing Street despite a range of available commercial flights being available"
My impression is that most foreigners don't think much about Britain at all (the idea that everyone else is agonising over Brexit is solipsism). If they do, however, they feel a mixture of amusement, sympathy and bafflement, in varying proportions. A new referendum reversing the decision would be seen as a return to rationality, albeit a somewhat embarrassing one. I don't expect it to happen, though, unless - as Alastair says - the proportion against moves closer to 2-1.
Why is it "rational" to want to be be ruled by a foreign power?
The EU is a partnership we chose to join, not a foreign power.
If we'd vetoed Spain's accession in the 80s I imagine Geoff would see things differently.
I've not considered that scenario, to be fair. I don't see what difference it would have made - they were dirty lazy bastards beforehand and joining the EU didn't change that.
The last 32 years have been pretty good for Spain. They've gone from 55% of the GDP per head of Italy to 95%. They've seen the biggest percentage increase in employment anywhere in the developed world. They have produced the world's best mass market fashion retailer, and two top tier technology companies (admittedly they are two of the top three firms in the transport and travel vertical). Spaniards live longer, have more savings and are massively more prosperous than 32 years ago.
And a very large advertising and film production industry. One of the most creative and successful in Europe
Comments
Trump is out of control, and isn't interested in listening to anyone who doesn't worship him and views relationships purely from a one-sided perspective. This is something I suspect Merkel has understood: soon other leaders in time will learn and realise that Trump is more a diffclut situation to be navigated than someone to have a productive relationship with.
We need to have caps.....
Seriously, she actually wrote it within a few days and copied me in (somewhat illicitly, as I'm not a client) and I have to say it's proved as sound and accurate as most things I have read since.
And I always thought she was dumb!
It's quite possible for both Corbyn's tweet and Cooper's to be wrong. Surely that's not so hard for you to understand?
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/into-university/universities-disadvantaged-students-poorer-figures-government-higher-education-a7170056.html
A successful Brexit, ironically, might be the best way to keep Indyref2 alive. The bigger the fuckup is, the more people will say "no more of this bollocks."
Tax is different, it's more progressive and won't hinder you from borrowing more money.
Remember a lot of people also need maintenance loans on top, that much debt is daunting, and many tuition loans are not paid back making the current system not worth it.
It is somewhat progressive in that the poorest never repay. Labours current policy is the regressive one, with poorer taxpayers picking up the tab for middle class and wealthy kids to go to uni.
And thanks, hope you like them
When the political class agree they can impose things the general public do not want, whether that's the EU, the Lisbon Treaty, or the 0.7% guaranteed spending on foreign aid. On the sole occasion when the people were asked their view on the EU, they opted to leave.
https://twitter.com/AEI/status/881235472370065409
The argument the EEC of 1983 and the EU of 2016/17 is the same thing is as nonsensical as claiming Republican and Imperial Rome were identical.
Play nicely, my fellow Europeans.
Even Corbyn... having had the sense to set the 'acceptable' level of earnings at what he gets himself... would be hit by the Melenchon level of tax.
Anyone know the French for 'until the pips squeak' ?
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/02/trump-tweets-video-wrestling-cnn-240178
https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/881568829868040193
Today's ~under 23's got shat on wrt tuition fees.
* I think about 80% of UK caught fish is sold on the continent.
Edit. The UK Government ALWAYS trades fishermens' rights for other things we want. I doubt there will be much change post-Brexit.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/881503147168071680
https://twitter.com/Liam_O_Hare/status/881542649035071488
Vile religious sectarianism is alive and well in Scotland and is a shameful cancer that needs to be excised.
Orangism is not some quaint old timey tradition - it's a jackboot to the face and it's not even the 12th yet.
you dont think the outpouring over the last 2 weeks might be construed as anti Irish
Mick Fealty does
https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/06/29/ongoing-mischaracterisation-and-punching-down-of-ulster-protestants-has-an-eery-echo-to-it/
and youre sort of one of the worst offenders
you just pick on a different type of Irish
http://punch.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Ireland-Cartoons/G0000tcWkXyP4OHo/I0000JaKcoktwWhQ
plus ca change
I detest the orange order and the DUP on their own merits of shittery not their location or ethnicity.
Fuck me, if Muslims were marching around singing songs about being up to their knees in Christian blood this place would be rightly going mental.
Some good honest anti-Catholic hatred though and everyone is bezzie mates.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classic-podium-the-end-of-1000-years-of-history-1190761.html
In it, Gaitskill said that if we join the EU it means 'the end of Britain as an independent European state. I make no apology for repeating it. It means the end of a thousand years of history. You may say: "Let it end." But, my goodness, it is a decision that needs a little care and thought.'
Countries can clearly manage outside the EU. However our every major neighbour is in the EU or part of its system. If we want a continuity of our lifestyles we have no choice but to deal with the EU on its terms.
I don't know what will happen in the medium-term: I could see anything from a sensible Brexit that leads us to a new stable settlement outside the EU, that is politically accepted within the UK and proves to be economically neutral, to political support for Brexit collapsing, a coincident recession at the same time, and then the UK re-signing up to full EU membership in another 5 years, but this time with all the bells and whistles.
After the last few weeks, I'm not making any predictions. But, if that did happen, I would give up on politics for good.
I couldn't take my life-long dream dissolving in my face, and then backfiring, the gloating that would ensue, or another generation of feverish ruptures in the Conservative Party, and life's far too short for me to spend the rest of my life being disappointed and miserable.
I'd turn my attention to spending more time with my family and dogs, and staying out of history's way.
Flip me, Fealty engages in some of the most spectacular whataboutery in the comments.
and yes youre remarks are just plain stupid
it's like me insisting everyone in Glasgow is a sectarian drunk looking for a fight
who knows maybe you are
British officials have quietly abandoned hope of securing the government’s promised “cake and eat it” Brexit deal, increasingly accepting the inevitability of a painful trade-off between market access and political control when the UK leaves the EU.
Government insiders report a dramatic change of mood at the Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) since the general election, with growing Treasury influence helping force ministers to choose between prioritising economic interests or sovereignty.
This is in stark contrast to the public position of both main political parties, first set out in the Theresa May’s Lancaster House speech in January, in which she echoed Boris Johnson’s boast that Britain can “have its cake and eat it” – enjoying full trade access without conceding over immigration, courts and payments. Labour’s Jeremy Corbyn sacked three shadow ministers on Thursday for departing from a similar position.
Yet UK civil servants are now said to be presenting ministers with a more binary choice: accept political compromises similar to aspects of the European Economic Area (EEA), or settle for a much more limited trade deal such as the recent EU-Canada free trade agreement (Ceta).
“We have a problem in that really there are only two viable options,” one official told the Guardian. “One is a high-access, low-control arrangement which looks a bit like the EEA. The other is a low-access, high-control arrangement where you eventually end up looking like Ceta – a more classic free trade agreement, if you are lucky.
“Of course the policy position remains the Lancaster House speech which says what we want is a high-access, high-control situation, but the author of that speech [reported to be Downing Street adviser Nick Timothy] is no longer in an influential position.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/02/british-officials-drop-cake-and-eat-it-approach-to-brexit-negotiations
I was worried such a politically marginalised group would have fallen by the wayside, but it is a sign of a refocused Conservative Party that they are sticking up for the little guy here. When you have everyone from UKIP to the SNP backing you, you know you're truly representing British interests.
It's not the basket case of your imagination.
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/881578808100474881
You favour the break-up of the UK, so naturally you're hostile to any organisation that wants to hold it together.
"Conservatives spent £20,000 to fly DUP leader Arlene Foster to Belfast on an RAF plane after talks in Downing Street despite a range of available commercial flights being available"
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-reveals-57-per-10725757#ICID=sharebar_twitter
can we fill the thread with Alex Salmond expense stories now ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10751287/Expenses-Alex-Salmond-stayed-at-luxury-hotel-publicly-condemned-by-Nicola-Sturgeon.html
theres an internet full of them
We can't eat sovereignty.
Let's have another referndum now we have some idea what brexit means.
Remain vs. Hard Brexit
Bring it on.