Damn you, Mr Meeks. That was just about the piece I was going to write tonight.
However, I'm going to disagree with this bit:
"Whatever travails Labour might face, they have the enormous advantage that they will not be in government during this period. Pretty well by default they can expect to take large leads in the polls at times during this Parliament. There is no obvious reason why they should lose them."
That logic is one of the mgoing nuts at Corbyn's mishandling of Brexit and ignoring the more pressing domestic decisions).
But Corbyn does still lead Labour and while he's fine spouting platitudes on rostrums, he shows no inclination to do politics as normal and after the last two months, why would he? He and his supporters will feel utterly vindicated in toughing it out and doing it their way. They are not going to change now. But not changing will mean not upping their MSM game, continuing to focus on social media and running a sub-par shadow cabinet; it'll mean ignoring MPs and treating parliamentary discipline as a nice-to-have rather than an essential attribute of an effective opposition (particularly in a hung parliament). It'll mean policy on the hoof and not consulting front benchers before announcing decisions (not that Labour is unique in that).
In government or in opposition, Corbyn, and Corbyn's style of politics, will prove a considerable barrier to success. Yes, he did do well on June 8 in votes, vote share and seats gained. But just about any other recent Labour leader up against the same Tory leader, campaign and manifesto would have done better.
I think the mainstream big hitters in labour are facing the most interesting and difficult decision in recent history in deciding how far they can now go in being born again as Corbynites in order to stay in the game, while still maintaining the option of a reverse ferret when corbynism implodes. I hope Neil and Marr have plans to nail them down on this.
He will do better with strawberry jelly. They can sit tight, not answer questions, and see what transpires. At least the endgame has a decent shot of being in power, rather than not in power. That focuses peoples' minds quite dramatically.
And yet again we have the suggestion that the Cons should let Lab in so that they, apparently, can reap the disbenefits of the Brexit f**k up.
To which suggestions I have one overriding answer to why it would be a horrendous idea: events.
Who the hell knows what might happen over the next months and years. At the same time as Tezza could come to be seen as a hero, so too, if he were PM, could Jezza. It is simply too much to forecast several branches into the future of that binomial tree.
What's so egregiously bad about the UK government's proposals on EU citizens? Is it the ambiguity regarding the cut-off date, or the lack of ECJ oversight? I thought it seemed pretty reasonable, given that it said that all the 3m currently in the UK would be given the same rights as UK citizens.
There's nothing wrong with the proposals; the problem is with the politics. As RichardN says, we could probably have got somewhere near these - or somewhere near where we'd end up starting with these proposals - by accepting the EU document subject to specific reservations. Instead, she's marched her troops up the hill and will look silly when she makes concessions (or when she fails to get anywhere if she's not prepared to negotiate).
It only looks silly to people following closely. The BBC didn't point out on the radio news earlier that May's offer was less generous than the EU's proposals. They just repeated her line.
It's as dyedwoolie said at the end of the previous thread. This is all for domestic consumption, to create the impression of being generous, and to cast the EU as being unreasonable in the eyes of the British public.
This then makes it possible for her to walk away with no deal and to blame the EU for it, if she feels it is necessary to do so.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
What's so egregiously bad about the UK government's proposals on EU citizens? Is it the ambiguity regarding the cut-off date, or the lack of ECJ oversight? I thought it seemed pretty reasonable, given that it said that all the 3m currently in the UK would be given the same rights as UK citizens.
There's nothing wrong with the proposals; the problem is with the politics. As RichardN says, we could probably have got somewhere near these - or somewhere near where we'd end up starting with these proposals - by accepting the EU document subject to specific reservations. Instead, she's marched her troops up the hill and will look silly when she makes concessions (or when she fails to get anywhere if she's not prepared to negotiate).
The EU will be more damaged that the UK as a whole(because the trade balance is huge in the EU's favour) and the EU cost will be split over 27 nations. Frankly if the EU play hardball then so should we. the UK will recover from this terrible decision, with or without the EU. Frankly its worth it to tell the French and the Germans to go feck themselves. Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
French farmers are horrified at the thought of all their fresh produce rotting in queues at Customs checkpoints. Ditto winemakers. And these are people who will not take kindly to politicians playing silly games. Both sides have much to gain from a deal being struck.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
Can't help but feel we missed a trick by a) Not guaranteeing rights straight off the bat - which would've earned goodwill among the EU nations with large number of citizens here b) By May's decision to continue to kick the can down the road until after an election she lost her Brexit mandate in. Over the past year any divisions between the EU27 appear to have healed while hardening against Britain. Some of this should've been expected - all the EU leaders have have had a year to discuss and come to a shared approach in meeting after meeting, while we still haven't really outlined what we want and what we can and will offer. Other geopolitical factors, Trump's election and noises on Nato have made a stronger, more integrated EU (which might only be able to happen sans Britain) much more attractive to Eastern Europe. His economic protection has also made certain Brexiteer's vision of us as a new Atlantic nexus less plausible. Macron's election and the defeat of other populists (and Merkel's seemingly inevitable triumph) have also reinforced the bloc's confidence and made Brexit a more peripheral issue for them. It's no longer part of a populist tide sweeping Europe, but a very British peculiarity they can afford to deal with on their own terms. What negotiating advantages we did have, we appear to have utterly squandered or have been diminished with time as the EU have worked out a negotiating position and we're still debating what the leave vote actually meant.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
Tusk: "The UK's offer is below our expectations and risks worsening the situation for citizens."
Who voted for Tusk ? Not the citizens he claims to represent, you bet.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
?
Both main parties campaigned on a manifesto to leave the EU.
By that same logic she has no mandate to not offer unilateral EU citizens rights, because that is what the majority of parties in the parliament support. If Labour's positions are going be subsumed into May's mandate, then she needs to actually get Labour onboard. She hasn't so she only speaks for the Tory party, which doesn't have a majority.
Majority of parties? I don't think that is a useful metric.
Poor wording by me, I meant the majority of votes for were for parties that support unilateral offering of EU citizens rights - in this election the 'progressive' parties got 52% of the vote.
The new orthodoxy seems to be that Jeremy Corbyn is topcat. I think this is a mistake. I believe he is still the main obstacle to Labour winning an election. A Corbyn government with all the failures and disappointents to those who have placed their hopes in this false Messiah may well be a disaster for the Labour party and a blessing in disguise for the Tory Party. And I say this as a lifelong Labour voter.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
What's so egregiously bad about the UK government's proposals on EU citizens? Is it the ambiguity regarding the cut-off date, or the lack of ECJ oversight? I thought it seemed pretty reasonable, given that it said that all the 3m currently in the UK would be given the same rights as UK citizens.
There's nothing wrong with the proposals; the problem is with the politics. As RichardN says, we could probably have got somewhere near these - or somewhere near where we'd end up starting with these proposals - by accepting the EU document subject to specific reservations. Instead, she's marched her troops up the hill and will look silly when she makes concessions (or when she fails to get anywhere if she's not prepared to negotiate).
The EU will be more damaged that the UK as a whole(because the trade balance is huge in the EU's favour) and the EU cost will be split over 27 nations. Frankly if the EU play hardball then so should we. the UK will recover from this terrible decision, with or without the EU. Frankly its worth it to tell the French and the Germans to go feck themselves. Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
Actually 10%. The same will be applied to Nissan, Land Rover etc. The sales of BMW in the UK will hardly change. I will still buy BMW as I have always done.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
I think it is very, very hard to foresee the circumstances of the next election at this point. Certainly the Tories have taken a significant blow after one of the worst and most incompetent campaigns in history; Labour benefitted from this to a surprising (shocking in my case) extent and seems to have some wind in its sails and the government has an horrendously hard road to thurl in respect of Brexit but:
* We don't know who is going to lead either of the main parties into that election. May looks a dead duck and Corbyn will surely retire at some point. He is currently 68; he is likely to be into his 70s at the next election, potentially 73 (if the government lasts that long). Is he really going to stand to be PM at 73? There is a new fashion for old in politics but that is pushing it.
* If there is a new leadership election in Labour it is entirely possible that civil war will break out, indeed it is likely. A split is even possible.
* We don't know how and why this election will come about. It is possible, under a new leader that a crunch issue will arise with the EU which people are willing to get behind the government Syriza style.
I would want a lot better odds to tie up money for years on what is currently not much better than the toss of a coin.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
There are close to a million Poles in Britain. That makes it his business.
Does he want them to return home? Ditto the Spanish and the the French?
One only has to look at the youth unemployment figures across Europe to understand that it's in the EU's interests to strike deals. The UK currently offers the best chance for many of their citizens to find employment.
What's so egregiously bad about the UK government's proposals on EU citizens? Is it the ambiguity regarding the cut-off date, or the lack of ECJ oversight? I thought it seemed pretty reasonable, given that it said that all the 3m currently in the UK would be given the same rights as UK citizens.
There's nothing wrong with the proposals; the problem is with the politics. As RichardN says, we could probably have got somewhere near these - or somewhere near where we'd end up starting with these proposals - by accepting the EU document subject to specific reservations. Instead, she's marched her troops up the hill and will look silly when she makes concessions (or when she fails to get anywhere if she's not prepared to negotiate).
The EU will be more damaged that the UK as a whole(because the trade balance is huge in the EU's favour) and the EU cost will be split over 27 nations. Frankly if the EU play hardball then so should we. the UK will recover from this terrible decision, with or without the EU. Frankly its worth it to tell the French and the Germans to go feck themselves. Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
Actually 10%. The same will be applied to Nissan, Land Rover etc. The sales of BMW in the UK will hardly change. I will still buy BMW as I have always done.
I'll consider perhaps a Tesla next. But I fully intend to get around 200,000 miles out of my Peugeot 207. It is up to 70 now.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
Jackanory bob - I see you had another pop at me on the PT ,so lets try again -
You posted last night these exact words - It was you who said you would celebrate mass EU deportations.
Where did I post that please ?
Come on big boy.
TheScreamingEagles said: » show previous quotes Oh grow up.
I can tell you're upset that Mrs May is deporting all those EU citizens you don't like.
Yep ,i bet I am in a majority if we put it to a vote in the country.
That will do me pal.
Again where did i say - It was you who said you would celebrate mass EU deportations ?
Eh? You admitted you were upset that May won't be deporting people. Do you not see??
Do you not see but again where did i say - It was you who said you would celebrate mass EU deportations ?
You were trying to make out that I wanted all EU citizens deported,i was trying to say that EU citizens that are here just for the benefits shouldn't be given full right of stay.
What's so egregiously bad about the UK government's proposals on EU citizens? Is it the ambiguity regarding the cut-off date, or the lack of ECJ oversight? I thought it seemed pretty reasonable, given that it said that all the 3m currently in the UK would be given the same rights as UK citizens.
There's nothing wrong with the proposals; the problem is with the politics. As RichardN says, we could probably have got somewhere near these - or somewhere near where we'd end up starting with these proposals - by accepting the EU document subject to specific reservations. Instead, she's marched her troops up the hill and will look silly when she makes concessions (or when she fails to get anywhere if she's not prepared to negotiate).
The EU will be more damaged that the UK as a whole(because the trade balance is huge in the EU's favour) and the EU cost will be split over 27 nations. Frankly if the EU play hardball then so should we. the UK will recover from this terrible decision, with or without the EU. Frankly its worth it to tell the French and the Germans to go feck themselves. Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
Actually 10%. The same will be applied to Nissan, Land Rover etc. The sales of BMW in the UK will hardly change. I will still buy BMW as I have always done.
I'll consider perhaps a Tesla next. But I fully intend to get around 200,000 miles out of my Peugeot 207. It is up to 70 now.
Damn you, Mr Meeks. That was just about the piece I was going to write tonight.
However, I'm going to disagree with this bit:
"Whatever travails Labour might face, they have the enormous advantage that they will not be in government during this period. Pretty well by default they can expect to take large leads in the polls at times during this Parliament. There is no obvious reason why they should lose them."
That logic is one of the main reasons why I advocated last week that the Tories should vacate government. One year of Corbyn in Number 10 and the country might look quite differently at him (though there are, of course, all sorts of potential unintended consequences, not least the risk of the Tories going nuts at Corbyn's mishandling of Brexit and ignoring the more pressing domestic decisions).
But Corbyn does still lead Labour and while he's fine spouting platitudes on rostrums, he shows no inclination to do politics as normal and after the last two months, why would he? He and his supporters will feel utterly vindicated in toughing it out and doing it their way. They are not going to change now. But not changing will mean not upping their MSM game, continuing to focus on social media and running a sub-par shadow cabinet; it'll mean ignoring MPs and treating parliamentary discipline as a nice-to-have rather than an essential attribute of an effective opposition (particularly in a hung parliament). It'll mean policy on the hoof and not consulting front benchers before announcing decisions (not that Labour is unique in that).
In government or in opposition, Corbyn, and Corbyn's style of politics, will prove a considerable barrier to success. Yes, he did do well on June 8 in votes, vote share and seats gained. But just about any other recent Labour leader up against the same Tory leader, campaign and manifesto would have done better.
I think the mainstream big hitters in labour are facing the most interesting and difficult decision in recent history in deciding how far they can now go in being born again as Corbynites in order to stay in the game, while still maintaining the option of a reverse ferret when corbynism implodes. I hope Neil and Marr have plans to nail them down on this.
Yvette seems to be seeking guidance in a shower queue at Glasto.
Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
They won't have tariffs on the vast majority of their sales. The UK is not their largest market
True, but the UK is, for example, BMW group's 4th largest market, half the size of China, and comparable with the US and Germany, and more than France, Italy and Japan combined (5,6 and 7)
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
There are close to a million Poles in Britain. That makes it his business.
According to ultra Remainers, the UK PM shouldn't be interested in UK citizens who live in the EU27...
The EU has already offered UK citizens better terms than the UK's position implies.
By demanding that their citizens in the UK enjoy more rights than UK citizens.
No, if UK citizens in the UK don't enjoy the same rights that's an issue for the UK.
The UK government should be primarily interested in the rights of its own citizens. Giving additional rights to non-nationals is a total non-starter.
The UK government is proposing to give up the rights of its citizens to free movement around the EU and therefore doesn't have a leg to stand on on this question.
I have come to the conclusion that all we can do is sit here and watch the car crash and listen to Leavers going about the EU taking EU stuff back inside the post-Brexit EU Bloc"They cannot do that! Somebody stop them! How dare they! and variations thereof.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
It's as much use as having an 85% mandate for sticking your hand in the fire.
No British PM could navigate this process without being utterly crushed by the pressure. May's cack-handed attempts to paint the EU27 as divided by claiming the Poles were positive was transparent and embarrassing.
There are close to a million Poles in Britain. That makes it his business.
According to ultra Remainers, the UK PM shouldn't be interested in UK citizens who live in the EU27...
The EU has already offered UK citizens better terms than the UK's position implies.
By demanding that their citizens in the UK enjoy more rights than UK citizens.
No, if UK citizens in the UK don't enjoy the same rights that's an issue for the UK.
The UK government should be primarily interested in the rights of its own citizens. Giving additional rights to non-nationals is a total non-starter.
The UK government is proposing to give up the rights of its citizens to free movement around the EU and therefore doesn't have a leg to stand on on this question.
So? As long as it applies to everyone in the UK I don't see the issue.
They have constructed several exact copies of the building structure and entire cladding system and tested each component in isolation already? that's really quick work.
What's more likely is that they took a sample of each material, in isolation, and applied a flammability/smoke test. The point is that flammable components are (or should be) shielded and protected from sources of flames by other components of the complete structure.
We are in danger of indulging in one of our periodic uninformed mass media scares (cf. MMR vaccine) - by all means look for defects in existing structures, but let's not jump to unwarranted conclusions.
Incidentally, if hundreds of tower blocks containing tens of thousands properties are a major fire risk, their value must have massively reduced almost overnight - wonder what that will do to local property prices and household debt?
Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
They won't have tariffs on the vast majority of their sales. The UK is not their largest market
Great Britain is BMW's 4th largest market at 11% of sales, their largest market in Europe by far outside Germany. I doubt they'd be too keen to put that in jeopardy.
I have come to the conclusion that all we can do is sit here and watch the car crash and listen to Leavers going about the EU taking EU stuff back inside the post-Brexit EU Bloc"They cannot do that! Somebody stop them! How dare they! and variations thereof.
"all we can do is sit here"
We? Here? How many other PBers are watching Brexit through Southern Irish binoculars?
What's so egregiously bad about the UK government's proposals on EU citizens? Is it the ambiguity regarding the cut-off date, or the lack of ECJ oversight? I thought it seemed pretty reasonable, given that it said that all the 3m currently in the UK would be given the same rights as UK citizens.
There's nothing wrong with the proposals; the problem is with the politics. As RichardN says, we could probably have got somewhere near these - or somewhere near where we'd end up starting with these proposals - by accepting the EU document subject to specific reservations. Instead, she's marched her troops up the hill and will look silly when she makes concessions (or when she fails to get anywhere if she's not prepared to negotiate).
The EU will be more damaged that the UK as a whole(because the trade balance is huge in the EU's favour) and the EU cost will be split over 27 nations. Frankly if the EU play hardball then so should we. the UK will recover from this terrible decision, with or without the EU. Frankly its worth it to tell the French and the Germans to go feck themselves. Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
Actually 10%. The same will be applied to Nissan, Land Rover etc. The sales of BMW in the UK will hardly change. I will still buy BMW as I have always done.
I think I have bought my last German car to be honest. Trade between the EU and the UK will diminish more rapidly than it was already doing even if we get a tariff free deal. The collapse in trade between the Czech and Slovakia parts of the former country is perhaps overstating it slightly but it will be noticeable.
Great Britain is BMW's 4th largest market at 11% of sales, their largest market in Europe by far outside Germany. I doubt they'd be too keen to put that in jeopardy.
They didn't put it in jeopardy. If it happens, we voted to pay more for a BMW.
I have come to the conclusion that all we can do is sit here and watch the car crash and listen to Leavers going about the EU taking EU stuff back inside the post-Brexit EU Bloc"They cannot do that! Somebody stop them! How dare they! and variations thereof.
Yes, indeed. There will be plenty more of such things to come.
I'm looking forward to hearing more Brexit-supporting farmers moaning that they can't get staff or that the new UK agri subsidies are less than the old EU ones etc etc.
I think it is very, very hard to foresee the circumstances of the next election at this point. Certainly the Tories have taken a significant blow after one of the worst and most incompetent campaigns in history; Labour benefitted from this to a surprising (shocking in my case) extent and seems to have some wind in its sails and the government has an horrendously hard road to thurl in respect of Brexit but:
* We don't know who is going to lead either of the main parties into that election. May looks a dead duck and Corbyn will surely retire at some point. He is currently 68; he is likely to be into his 70s at the next election, potentially 73 (if the government lasts that long). Is he really going to stand to be PM at 73? There is a new fashion for old in politics but that is pushing it.
* If there is a new leadership election in Labour it is entirely possible that civil war will break out, indeed it is likely. A split is even possible.
* We don't know how and why this election will come about. It is possible, under a new leader that a crunch issue will arise with the EU which people are willing to get behind the government Syriza style.
I would want a lot better odds to tie up money for years on what is currently not much better than the toss of a coin.
Well I think he should have taken retirement so that a job is available for a younger person - job bed blocking is sooo anti socialist.
Great Britain is BMW's 4th largest market at 11% of sales, their largest market in Europe by far outside Germany. I doubt they'd be too keen to put that in jeopardy.
They didn't put it in jeopardy. If it happens, we voted to pay more for a BMW.
Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
They won't have tariffs on the vast majority of their sales. The UK is not their largest market
True, but the UK is, for example, BMW group's 4th largest market, half the size of China, and comparable with the US and Germany, and more than France, Italy and Japan combined (5,6 and 7)
You also assume Britain will impose tariffs. It may well do so but some Leavers and assorted free market purists advocate zero tariffs so British consumers can buy cheap BMWs. Less good for UK-based producers, of course.
What's so egregiously bad about the UK government's proposals on EU citizens? Is it the ambiguity regarding the cut-off date, or the lack of ECJ oversight? I thought it seemed pretty reasonable, given that it said that all the 3m currently in the UK would be given the same rights as UK citizens.
There's nothing wrong with the proposals; the problem is with the politics. As RichardN says, we could probably have got somewhere near these - or somewhere near where we'd end up starting with these proposals - by accepting the EU document subject to specific reservations. Instead, she's marched her troops up the hill and will look silly when she makes concessions (or when she fails to get anywhere if she's not prepared to negotiate).
It only looks silly to people following closely. The BBC didn't point out on the radio news earlier that May's offer was less generous than the EU's proposals. They just repeated her line.
It's as dyedwoolie said at the end of the previous thread. This is all for domestic consumption, to create the impression of being generous, and to cast the EU as being unreasonable in the eyes of the British public.
This then makes it possible for her to walk away with no deal and to blame the EU for it, if she feels it is necessary to do so.
But the EU is perfectly entitled to 'walk away' from any deal, proposal or suggestion - because the EU did not leave us, we left the EU. What's more, we left it without preconditions. So if the EU decided to tell us to just go - no arrangements, no deals, no nuffink - it would be perfectly within its rights.
Of course it won't do any such thing because it wouldn't be in its own best interests and for the most part its leaders are reasonable people. But we can have absolutely no complaints about what is offered us, for the simple reason we left without so much as 'by your leave'.
The politics of all this is therefore a bit of a pretend game, which on the UK comprises largely of placing all blame on the beastly Europeans, as indicated.
Jackanory bob - I see you had another pop at me on the PT ,so lets try again -
You posted last night these exact words - It was you who said you would celebrate mass EU deportations.
Where did I post that please ?
Come on big boy.
TheScreamingEagles said: » show previous quotes Oh grow up.
I can tell you're upset that Mrs May is deporting all those EU citizens you don't like.
Yep ,i bet I am in a majority if we put it to a vote in the country.
That will do me pal.
Again where did i say - It was you who said you would celebrate mass EU deportations ?
Eh? You admitted you were upset that May won't be deporting people. Do you not see??
Do you not see but again where did i say - It was you who said you would celebrate mass EU deportations ?
You were trying to make out that I wanted all EU citizens deported,i was trying to say that EU citizens that are here just for the benefits shouldn't be given full right of stay.
Possibly Mr Ajob could furnish us with a link to the alleged statement ? To paraphrase a challenge so beloved of the online youth of today
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Do I have to bring out my Ted Heath quotes again? The debate in the 70s was very open and transparent. It was really only in the 90s that the dissembling began.
The citizens of various countries elect governments. The heads of the elect govts elected Tusk.
So he was elected by democratically elected leaders. It is not like he led a military coup.
Tusk is just an appointee with no popular mandate. He has no business lecturing May on citizens' rights.
May's mandate is not exactly sparkling either... or had you not noticed?
May has an 85% mandate for Brexit, Tusk is the worthy successor of a damp rag.
There are close to a million Poles in Britain. That makes it his business.
According to ultra Remainers, the UK PM shouldn't be interested in UK citizens who live in the EU27...
The EU has already offered UK citizens better terms than the UK's position implies.
By demanding that their citizens in the UK enjoy more rights than UK citizens.
No, if UK citizens in the UK don't enjoy the same rights that's an issue for the UK.
The UK government should be primarily interested in the rights of its own citizens. Giving additional rights to non-nationals is a total non-starter.
The UK government is proposing to give up the rights of its citizens to free movement around the EU and therefore doesn't have a leg to stand on on this question.
They are following our instructions delivered in the referendum to end them.
And to what extent is it really a "right"? Does Thomas Paine's 1791 "Rights of Man" have a chapter called "Convenient Holiday Options For All The Family"?
They have constructed several exact copies of the building structure and entire cladding system and tested each component in isolation already? that's really quick work.
What's more likely is that they took a sample of each material, in isolation, and applied a flammability/smoke test. The point is that flammable components are (or should be) shielded and protected from sources of flames by other components of the complete structure.
We are in danger of indulging in one of our periodic uninformed mass media scares (cf. MMR vaccine) - by all means look for defects in existing structures, but let's not jump to unwarranted conclusions.
Incidentally, if hundreds of tower blocks containing tens of thousands properties are a major fire risk, their value must have massively reduced almost overnight - wonder what that will do to local property prices and household debt?
I believe one of the two old airship hangers at Cardington was once run by a fire research organisation, whose work sometimes involved building a full house and other structures within and setting fire to them. They could make the interior of the hanger a controlled environment.
I doubt there is a hanger big enough anywhere to fit a towerblock in (perhaps the Apollo V VAB?), so any such research would have to be of 'typical' sections.
Edit: VAB height is 160 metres; Grenfell Tower is 67 metres. Darned, the Apollo V was big.
I think it is very, very hard to foresee the circumstances of the next election at this point...
Well certainly the specific circumstances are impossible to predict, and all manner of events might occur, either to the Conservatives advantage or not. But I think Alastair deals with that point well in his piece:
How is this likely to pan out in practice? Nothing is certain but when assessing the future we should be working in probabilities. On this occasion, the probabilities look fairly easy to assess. The government faces the most demanding peacetime challenge since the first post-war government and does so against a hard deadline with a divided party, a leader with no authority and with no majority in the House of Commons. Professor Philip Cowley has identified eight factors that help governments get legislation through. He scores the current government at 0/8. The chances of this ending happily for either the country or the Conservative party look slim.
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Do I have to bring out my Ted Heath quotes again? The debate in the 70s was very open and transparent. It was really only in the 90s that the dissembling began.
so you accept that there has been dissembling for at least the last 25 years, well that's progress of sorts.
I think it is very, very hard to foresee the circumstances of the next election at this point. Certainly the Tories have taken a significant blow after one of the worst and most incompetent campaigns in history; Labour benefitted from this to a surprising (shocking in my case) extent and seems to have some wind in its sails and the government has an horrendously hard road to thurl in respect of Brexit but:
* We don't know who is going to lead either of the main parties into that election. May looks a dead duck and Corbyn will surely retire at some point. He is currently 68; he is likely to be into his 70s at the next election, potentially 73 (if the government lasts that long). Is he really going to stand to be PM at 73? There is a new fashion for old in politics but that is pushing it.
* If there is a new leadership election in Labour it is entirely possible that civil war will break out, indeed it is likely. A split is even possible.
* We don't know how and why this election will come about. It is possible, under a new leader that a crunch issue will arise with the EU which people are willing to get behind the government Syriza style.
I would want a lot better odds to tie up money for years on what is currently not much better than the toss of a coin.
Well I think he should have taken retirement so that a job is available for a younger person - job bed blocking is sooo anti socialist.
I had assumed that his job blocking was going to cause lots of gainful employment for decent sorts such as Tissue Price but sadly it did not work out that way. I still find the idea that Tories will be sighing a breath of relief when Corbyn hangs up his socialist worker hat a bit discombobulating. Are we really scared of that prat? It's depressing.
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Of course there were lies and deceptions on both sides, but was it sensible to ask the electorate to make a decision based on them, and on a subject which even the best informed and most judicious would have found exceptionally difficult?
I have come to the conclusion that all we can do is sit here and watch the car crash and listen to Leavers going about the EU taking EU stuff back inside the post-Brexit EU Bloc"They cannot do that! Somebody stop them! How dare they! and variations thereof.
"all we can do is sit here"
We? Here? How many other PBers are watching Brexit through Southern Irish binoculars?
By that same logic she has no mandate to not offer unilateral EU citizens rights, because that is what the majority of parties in the parliament support. If Labour's positions are going be subsumed into May's mandate, then she needs to actually get Labour onboard. She hasn't so she only speaks for the Tory party, which doesn't have a majority.
Worse than that, Mr Paristonda. Apparently, when the notorious Referendum declared for Brexit, most of the Cabinet, including Mr Cameron at that time, were in favour of being generous towards EU citizens already in the UK. The one person who held out against it - and got her wicked way - was Mrs May.
Who would have thought, when she made her speech about the Conservative Party being the nasty party, that that was not a description, but an objective?
And to what extent is it really a "right"? Does Thomas Paine's 1791 "Rights of Man" have a chapter called "Convenient Holiday Options For All The Family"?
It bollocks of the first order anyway. The UK passport is accepted vista free in over half the countries of the world, and most of the rest will give you a vista on arrival. BrExit border negotiations will not affect people going on vacations. If you are not looking to sponge benefits or behave unlawfully it doubtful it will affect anyone looking for a job more than a bit of paperwork either.
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Do I have to bring out my Ted Heath quotes again? The debate in the 70s was very open and transparent. It was really only in the 90s that the dissembling began.
Um No. As we proved last time, Heath was saying one thing to private audiences of pro-Europeans such as the European Movement whilst saying exactly the opposite to the public at large.
You were thoroughly dishonest in linking to quotes made to pro EU audiences at private dinners and pretending they were made to the public at large.
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Of course there were lies and deceptions on both sides, but was it sensible to ask the electorate to make a decision based on them, and on a subject which even the best informed and most judicious would have found exceptionally difficult?
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Of course there were lies and deceptions on both sides, but was it sensible to ask the electorate to make a decision based on them, and on a subject which even the best informed and most judicious would have found exceptionally difficult?
chortle
you mean we should not trust the voters and hand everything over to s self appointed group of experts ?
tht would work well, experts havent been very good with expertise recently
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
Odd he didn't mention it at the time... it's not like most world leaders were shy and retiring about putting in their twopenneth about BrExit.
European leaders were asked by Cameron to keep their mouths shut. He thought that Obama would hold more sway...
Not all leading overseas politicians were in favour of Remain. I recall that Putin, Trump, and LePen favoured Brexit, although the last two have since qualified their opinions.
Brexit still has Putin on its side though, I believe.
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Do I have to bring out my Ted Heath quotes again? The debate in the 70s was very open and transparent. It was really only in the 90s that the dissembling began.
Um No. As we proved last time, Heath was saying one thing to private audiences of pro-Europeans such as the European Movement whilst saying exactly the opposite to the public at large.
You were thoroughly dishonest in linking to quotes made to pro EU audiences at private dinners and pretending they were made to the public at large.
You consider a BBC televised debate watched by 8 million people as a private audience of pro-Europeans? It's a view...
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Of course there were lies and deceptions on both sides, but was it sensible to ask the electorate to make a decision based on them, and on a subject which even the best informed and most judicious would have found exceptionally difficult?
Maybe. Maybe not. It happened. I think people need to realise that and move on.
Not really, since 50% of a Jag comes in a box from Germany.
shows how little you undestand JLR sourcing
a mini or a bentley sure, but JLR has more home grown suppliers than German transplants
do keep up
"Britain's car industry may never be able to boost the level of local content to over half in its cars to meet the standards set in some bilateral trade agreements, the chief executive of the country's biggest carmaker Jaguar Land Rover told Reuters."
Not really, since 50% of a Jag comes in a box from Germany.
Do you have a link for that? Not finding it in a quick skim around the internet. I would be genuinely interested to know what % of a Jaguar is UK made.
Not really, since 50% of a Jag comes in a box from Germany.
shows how little you undestand JLR sourcing
a mini or a bentley sure, but JLR has more home grown suppliers than German transplants
do keep up
"Britain's car industry may never be able to boost the level of local content to over half in its cars to meet the standards set in some bilateral trade agreements, the chief executive of the country's biggest carmaker Jaguar Land Rover told Reuters."
I have come to the conclusion that all we can do is sit here and watch the car crash and listen to Leavers going about the EU taking EU stuff back inside the post-Brexit EU Bloc"They cannot do that! Somebody stop them! How dare they! and variations thereof.
And how have you come to that conclusion, pray tell?
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Of course there were lies and deceptions on both sides, but was it sensible to ask the electorate to make a decision based on them, and on a subject which even the best informed and most judicious would have found exceptionally difficult?
Maybe. Maybe not. It happened. I think people need to realise that and move on.
Oh, we've all moved on, Also. We have to. You can't stifle comment though. Why would you want to?
Lets see how Germany likes 50% tarriifs on VW's, BMW's and Mercs
They won't have tariffs on the vast majority of their sales. The UK is not their largest market
True, but the UK is, for example, BMW group's 4th largest market, half the size of China, and comparable with the US and Germany, and more than France, Italy and Japan combined (5,6 and 7)
Brexit means that fewer Brits will be able to afford new cars of any kind, but you'd imagine the top end will be less affected. People are very loyal to specific brands at that level.
I have come to the conclusion that all we can do is sit here and watch the car crash and listen to Leavers going about the EU taking EU stuff back inside the post-Brexit EU Bloc"They cannot do that! Somebody stop them! How dare they! and variations thereof.
And how have you come to that conclusion, pray tell?
From reading this place. Leavers can argue with Remainers and v.v. until both are blue in the face. Leavers arguing with reality should be more entertaining because
a ) Reality does not listen b ) Reality is always right c ) It takes less effort from me
At some point near the end of this year I am going to be in the market for a mid 20K new car. What is the most British car I can buy in that range and what would people recommend?
My last 3 cars have been Audis. I do a fair whack of miles on motorways.
Tusk: "The UK's offer is below our expectations and risks worsening the situation for citizens."
Then Tusk and the EU need to make a counteroffer, and we can see if we can meet somewhere.
Thats how negoiations work.
They set out their position previously.
Yes...
They made an offer. We made a counter offer.
Tusk: "the counter offer is less good than our original offer"
No shit, Sherlock.
The EU fanatics think we should just fold immediately.
Not this one, Rob. You make a bed, you lie in it. Always been my view.
Actually we haven't yet made the bed. In a fit of summer madness and numerous family rows we decided to get rid of the existing bed and have ordered a bed kit from IKEA. We were promised by salesmen that this new bed will be just great. So far it lies on the bedroom floor as a mess of parts with at least five conflicting sets of instructions.
We remain sleeping in the old bed, while we work out the instructions.
Not really, since 50% of a Jag comes in a box from Germany.
Do you have a link for that? Not finding it in a quick skim around the internet. I would be genuinely interested to know what % of a Jaguar is UK made.
95% of JLR products come with a ZF gearbox which is one of the most expensive components in it.
"With seven of the nine Lib Dem seats in England now held with majorities of less than eight per cent of the vote, the next election offers a chance to take the Lib Dems out for good."
Given what the polls were like at the start of the most recent election, *that* one offered the chance to take the Lib Dems out for good. For all the reasons given in Alastair's article, there's sod all chance of those conditions returning.
I don't think the premise is correct, either. The LDs vote share increased in:
Interesting to note that two of the three vote share increases happened in Leave voting seats. Yet all five seats which voted Remain saw the LD vote share fall.
Not really, since 50% of a Jag comes in a box from Germany.
shows how little you undestand JLR sourcing
a mini or a bentley sure, but JLR has more home grown suppliers than German transplants
do keep up
Nope - the MD of JLR on the wireless today said there was a large component part which was imported. He also said they weren't going to move and they have been selling a ton of cars this year.
That said, we are talking a tier of car (£35-100,000) that cannot really be compared with a £25k BMW so I'm not sure how much of a substitute they are.
Tusk: "The UK's offer is below our expectations and risks worsening the situation for citizens."
Then Tusk and the EU need to make a counteroffer, and we can see if we can meet somewhere.
Thats how negoiations work.
They set out their position previously.
Yes...
They made an offer. We made a counter offer.
Tusk: "the counter offer is less good than our original offer"
No shit, Sherlock.
The EU fanatics think we should just fold immediately.
There will be a Brian Clough negotiation. The UK will be the player, the EU27 Cloughie:
It was during an interview with Michael Parkinson that Brian Clough was famously asked how he usually reacted to a player who said: “Boss, you’re doing it wrong.” In an answer that has gone down in football folklore, Clough replied: “Well, I ask him how he thinks it ought to be done. And then we get down to it, and we talk about it for 20 minutes, and then we decide I was right.”
"With seven of the nine Lib Dem seats in England now held with majorities of less than eight per cent of the vote, the next election offers a chance to take the Lib Dems out for good."
Given what the polls were like at the start of the most recent election, *that* one offered the chance to take the Lib Dems out for good. For all the reasons given in Alastair's article, there's sod all chance of those conditions returning.
I don't think the premise is correct, either. The LDs vote share increased in:
Interesting to note that two of the three vote share increases happened in Leave voting seats. Yet all five seats which voted Remain saw the LD vote share fall.
Make of that what you will
The article was mainly a call-to-arms to get active and start delivering leaflets in these LD seats - so can probably be taken with a pinch of salt.
Not really, since 50% of a Jag comes in a box from Germany.
shows how little you undestand JLR sourcing
a mini or a bentley sure, but JLR has more home grown suppliers than German transplants
do keep up
"Britain's car industry may never be able to boost the level of local content to over half in its cars to meet the standards set in some bilateral trade agreements, the chief executive of the country's biggest carmaker Jaguar Land Rover told Reuters."
@patrickwintour: British people were "endlessly lied to and deceived" in last year's Brexit referendum German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble.
"endlessly lied to and deceived"
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
Of course there were lies and deceptions on both sides, but was it sensible to ask the electorate to make a decision based on them, and on a subject which even the best informed and most judicious would have found exceptionally difficult?
chortle
you mean we should not trust the voters and hand everything over to s self appointed group of experts ?
tht would work well, experts havent been very good with expertise recently
That's right, Alanbrooke, experts are often wrong. So what do you do? Do you ask the inexpert, the man down the pub, the lunatic in the asylum?
On a difficult subject like the EU you would expect a variety of opinion at all levels, from the most expert to the lay opinion. In this case, the bulk of 'expert' opinion suggested Brexit would be a mistake. This was kind of reflected in the fact the more educated the voter, the more likely they were to vote Remain. Of course it could turn out that the layman was right all along although early indications are otherwise. On the whole though, I think it is sensible to refer difficult matters like these to people who are best equiped to deal with them. And of course this being a democracy we can always change and challenge our representatives if we think they are selling us short. It's not a perfect system, but on the whole it works reasonably well.
Not really, since 50% of a Jag comes in a box from Germany.
shows how little you undestand JLR sourcing
a mini or a bentley sure, but JLR has more home grown suppliers than German transplants
do keep up
Nope - the MD of JLR on the wireless today said there was a large component part which was imported. He also said they weren't going to move and they have been selling a ton of cars this year.
That said, we are talking a tier of car (£35-100,000) that cannot really be compared with a £25k BMW so I'm not sure how much of a substitute they are.
rolls eyes
youve read an article, yet youve never sold a programme to JLR or any other vehicle mnufacturer, or met an automoive buyer but are suddenly an expert in automotive sourcing
thats fine I'll take it that youre happy to listen to my views on banking
Brexit's the best thing that every happened to the City you know
Not really, since 50% of a Jag comes in a box from Germany.
shows how little you undestand JLR sourcing
a mini or a bentley sure, but JLR has more home grown suppliers than German transplants
do keep up
"Britain's car industry may never be able to boost the level of local content to over half in its cars to meet the standards set in some bilateral trade agreements, the chief executive of the country's biggest carmaker Jaguar Land Rover told Reuters."
well of ourse it wont but the parts wont all be coming in from Germany or indeed the EU for that matter
about 25% of the value of a car these days is electronics, not something Europe excels at. Even German cars arent all made in Germany.
The world's biggest producer of semiconductors for the auto industry is Infineon, which is German. The second largest is NXP which is Dutch. Third is Texas Instruments (US).
Tusk: "The UK's offer is below our expectations and risks worsening the situation for citizens."
Then Tusk and the EU need to make a counteroffer, and we can see if we can meet somewhere.
Thats how negoiations work.
They set out their position previously.
Yes...
They made an offer. We made a counter offer.
Tusk: "the counter offer is less good than our original offer"
No shit, Sherlock.
The EU fanatics think we should just fold immediately.
Not this one, Rob. You make a bed, you lie in it. Always been my view.
Actually we haven't yet made the bed. In a fit of summer madness and numerous family rows we decided to get rid of the existing bed and have ordered a bed kit from IKEA. We were promised by salesmen that this new bed will be just great. So far it lies on the bedroom floor as a mess of parts with at least five conflicting sets of instructions.
We remain sleeping in the old bed, while we work out the instructions.
Good analogy, but somewhat overoptimistic in its implications.
Comments
And yet again we have the suggestion that the Cons should let Lab in so that they, apparently, can reap the disbenefits of the Brexit f**k up.
To which suggestions I have one overriding answer to why it would be a horrendous idea: events.
Who the hell knows what might happen over the next months and years. At the same time as Tezza could come to be seen as a hero, so too, if he were PM, could Jezza. It is simply too much to forecast several branches into the future of that binomial tree.
It's as dyedwoolie said at the end of the previous thread. This is all for domestic consumption, to create the impression of being generous, and to cast the EU as being unreasonable in the eyes of the British public.
This then makes it possible for her to walk away with no deal and to blame the EU for it, if she feels it is necessary to do so.
* We don't know who is going to lead either of the main parties into that election. May looks a dead duck and Corbyn will surely retire at some point. He is currently 68; he is likely to be into his 70s at the next election, potentially 73 (if the government lasts that long). Is he really going to stand to be PM at 73? There is a new fashion for old in politics but that is pushing it.
* If there is a new leadership election in Labour it is entirely possible that civil war will break out, indeed it is likely. A split is even possible.
* We don't know how and why this election will come about. It is possible, under a new leader that a crunch issue will arise with the EU which people are willing to get behind the government Syriza style.
I would want a lot better odds to tie up money for years on what is currently not much better than the toss of a coin.
One only has to look at the youth unemployment figures across Europe to understand that it's in the EU's interests to strike deals. The UK currently offers the best chance for many of their citizens to find employment.
You were trying to make out that I wanted all EU citizens deported,i was trying to say that EU citizens that are here just for the benefits shouldn't be given full right of stay.
https://tvnewsroom.consilium.europa.eu/event/european-council-june-2017-day-1-17336/departure-may-uk-17af9
What's more likely is that they took a sample of each material, in isolation, and applied a flammability/smoke test. The point is that flammable components are (or should be) shielded and protected from sources of flames by other components of the complete structure.
We are in danger of indulging in one of our periodic uninformed mass media scares (cf. MMR vaccine) - by all means look for defects in existing structures, but let's not jump to unwarranted conclusions.
Incidentally, if hundreds of tower blocks containing tens of thousands properties are a major fire risk, their value must have massively reduced almost overnight - wonder what that will do to local property prices and household debt?
We? Here? How many other PBers are watching Brexit through Southern Irish binoculars?
I'm looking forward to hearing more Brexit-supporting farmers moaning that they can't get staff or that the new UK agri subsidies are less than the old EU ones etc etc.
sounds like the history of our time in the EU
good news for JLR
Of course it won't do any such thing because it wouldn't be in its own best interests and for the most part its leaders are reasonable people. But we can have absolutely no complaints about what is offered us, for the simple reason we left without so much as 'by your leave'.
The politics of all this is therefore a bit of a pretend game, which on the UK comprises largely of placing all blame on the beastly Europeans, as indicated.
"Link or it didn't happen"
And to what extent is it really a "right"? Does Thomas Paine's 1791 "Rights of Man" have a chapter called "Convenient Holiday Options For All The Family"?
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardington_test
I doubt there is a hanger big enough anywhere to fit a towerblock in (perhaps the Apollo V VAB?), so any such research would have to be of 'typical' sections.
Edit: VAB height is 160 metres; Grenfell Tower is 67 metres. Darned, the Apollo V was big.
a mini or a bentley sure, but JLR has more home grown suppliers than German transplants
do keep up
Who would have thought, when she made her speech about the Conservative Party being the nasty party, that that was not a description, but an objective?
he pissed more voters off than Juncker ever could have
You were thoroughly dishonest in linking to quotes made to pro EU audiences at private dinners and pretending they were made to the public at large.
you mean we should not trust the voters and hand everything over to s self appointed group of experts ?
tht would work well, experts havent been very good with expertise recently
Brexit still has Putin on its side though, I believe.
They made an offer. We made a counter offer.
Tusk: "the counter offer is less good than our original offer"
No shit, Sherlock.
"Britain's car industry may never be able to boost the level of local content to over half in its cars to meet the standards set in some bilateral trade agreements, the chief executive of the country's biggest carmaker Jaguar Land Rover told Reuters."
http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/passenger-vehicle/cars/uk-cars-may-never-meet-made-in-britain-threshold-jaguar-land-rover/57534909
well of ourse it wont but the parts wont all be coming in from Germany or indeed the EU for that matter
about 25% of the value of a car these days is electronics, not something Europe excels at. Even German cars arent all made in Germany.
a ) Reality does not listen
b ) Reality is always right
c ) It takes less effort from me
My last 3 cars have been Audis. I do a fair whack of miles on motorways.
We remain sleeping in the old bed, while we work out the instructions.
Norfolk North +9.4%
Orkney & Shetland +7.2%
Carshalton & Wallington +6.2%
and fell in...
Leeds NW -1.8%
Southport -4.6%
Sheffield Hallam -5.4%
Westmoreland & Lonsdale -5.7%
Ceredigion -6.9%
Interesting to note that two of the three vote share increases happened in Leave voting seats. Yet all five seats which voted Remain saw the LD vote share fall.
Make of that what you will
That said, we are talking a tier of car (£35-100,000) that cannot really be compared with a £25k BMW so I'm not sure how much of a substitute they are.
It was during an interview with Michael Parkinson that Brian Clough was famously asked how he usually reacted to a player who said: “Boss, you’re doing it wrong.” In an answer that has gone down in football folklore, Clough replied: “Well, I ask him how he thinks it ought to be done. And then we get down to it, and we talk about it for 20 minutes, and then we decide I was right.”
On a difficult subject like the EU you would expect a variety of opinion at all levels, from the most expert to the lay opinion. In this case, the bulk of 'expert' opinion suggested Brexit would be a mistake. This was kind of reflected in the fact the more educated the voter, the more likely they were to vote Remain. Of course it could turn out that the layman was right all along although early indications are otherwise. On the whole though, I think it is sensible to refer difficult matters like these to people who are best equiped to deal with them. And of course this being a democracy we can always change and challenge our representatives if we think they are selling us short. It's not a perfect system, but on the whole it works reasonably well.
What do you suggest instead?
youve read an article, yet youve never sold a programme to JLR or any other vehicle mnufacturer, or met an automoive buyer but are suddenly an expert in automotive sourcing
thats fine I'll take it that youre happy to listen to my views on banking
Brexit's the best thing that every happened to the City you know