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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the BREXIT negotiations start in Brussels LAB take 3% lead

SystemSystem Posts: 11,688
edited June 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the BREXIT negotiations start in Brussels LAB take 3% lead in new Survation poll

New Survation voting poll for GMB has LAB 3% aheadCON 41%-1LAB 44% +4LD 6% =UKIP 2% -1Changes on Jun 5th

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    First! Like the Conservatives...
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    First! Like the Conservatives...

    Second like the Conservatives in Surbiton.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    edited June 2017
    Brexit negotiations are due to begin on June 19th. In light of the General Election result, which of the following is closest to your view?

    Brexit negotiations should be delayed 32%

    Brexit negotiations should not be delayed 65%

    Don’t know 3%

    http://mailchi.mp/survation/post-election-poll-for-the-mail-on-sunday-1118693
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
    Survation was on the money.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
    It was apparent in advance of the general election that some pollsters were going to be severely embarrassed. There was widespread scepticism about them even then. Anyone betting blindly on a particular pollster was being very foolish.

    What they can assist with is trends. Survation presumably have not tinkered with their approach, given that approach did so well ten days ago. We can therefore be reasonably confident that there has been some shift from the Conservatives to Labour since then.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    edited June 2017
    Theresa May should resign as Prime Minister following the General Election Result

    Net Support:
    2017 Vote
    OA: +3
    Con: -66
    Lab: +60
    LD: 0
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On the Conservative leadership, it seems to me that the various hopefuls are too disorganised and too unwilling to give way for others. So Theresa May looks set to survive as Prime Minister for now, even though a speedy replacement of her would probably be best for all concerned.

    Perhaps the return of MPs from their constituencies will concentrate minds.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,320

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    To be honest I expected a bigger labour lead. Losing only 1% since the GE is surprising really.

    This is going to be a long hot summer and I really do fear for the streets of London.

    I am also very concerned at the reputational damage this is doing to London and our Country.

    All politicians need to be careful how they react and they all need to stop playing political point scoring
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    woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    So the Tories have had everything thrown at them for 2 weeks and are still polling above 40. A half decent campaign can still destroy Corbyn and his cronies. If only we'd have had one.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,291
    Twelfth like Farage's leaderships. Or do I lose count?
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    Richard_HRichard_H Posts: 48
    It seems to me that Labour stategists have been very clever, in gaining votes from those who are on both sides of Brexit debate, as well as younger voters. The Tories enabled this to happen, because of talk about a hard Brexit and just leaving the EU going onto WTO terms. This would frighten many ordinary people who supported Brexit, but only to gain control of borders and regain full democratic accountability in London. Most people who supported Brexit, won't accept Brexit if it would make their families worse off and the Tories frightened enough people not to win a majority. Whoever was in control of Tory strategy has lost the trust of too many people to gain a majority in the next few years and it is inevitable that Theresa May will be replaced.
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    On the Conservative leadership, it seems to me that the various hopefuls are too disorganised and too unwilling to give way for others. So Theresa May looks set to survive as Prime Minister for now, even though a speedy replacement of her would probably be best for all concerned.

    Perhaps the return of MPs from their constituencies will concentrate minds.

    Yes, they will probably be given the strong message to stop mucking around politicking against each other and focus on governing in the national interest.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    edited June 2017

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
    We can therefore be reasonably confident that there has been some shift from the Conservatives to Labour since then.
    In Survation polls the big shift happened end-May (5 point drop 15th to 22nd) - the Con vote share has been stable since then (43-41) , while Labour has grown substantially, putting on 10 points while Con have been flat over the same period:

    9/5 15/5 22/5 30/5 5/6 19/6

    CON 47% 48% 43% 43% 41% 41%

    LAB 30% 30% 34% 37% 40% 44%

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
    It was apparent in advance of the general election that some pollsters were going to be severely embarrassed. There was widespread scepticism about them even then. Anyone betting blindly on a particular pollster was being very foolish.

    What they can assist with is trends. Survation presumably have not tinkered with their approach, given that approach did so well ten days ago. We can therefore be reasonably confident that there has been some shift from the Conservatives to Labour since then.
    Survation were the pollsters who held back a poll at 2015GE.. I don't trust any of them tbh. but I take your point.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited June 2017
    Not all polls were found out during the GE. Survation and the YouGov model were both spot on, it's why they are the only two pollsters doing polls right now. Remember, Survation's last polls had a Conservative lead of 1%? And the YouGov model continually predicted a hung parliament and places like Canterbury going Labour?

    That said, I would imagine the Conservatives would not be displeased with this poll and I'm amused that there are any PB Tories in a panic over it. For the kind of awful week the government, and in particular May has had, Labour I think will be disappointed to see that they only have a 3 point lead over a government in this much chaos.
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
    Survation was on the money.
    The stage is set for an equally large polling disaster in the other direction next time. Especially if Corbyn is still leader and it turns out that a lot of older voters stayed at home this time because of the "dementia tax etc" AND, importantly, a (correct as it happened) belief that Corbyn couldn't win.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,320
    Richard_H said:

    It seems to me that Labour stategists have been very clever, in gaining votes from those who are on both sides of Brexit debate, as well as younger voters. The Tories enabled this to happen, because of talk about a hard Brexit and just leaving the EU going onto WTO terms. This would frighten many ordinary people who supported Brexit, but only to gain control of borders and regain full democratic accountability in London. Most people who supported Brexit, won't accept Brexit if it would make their families worse off and the Tories frightened enough people not to win a majority. Whoever was in control of Tory strategy has lost the trust of too many people to gain a majority in the next few years and it is inevitable that Theresa May will be replaced.

    But Corbyn is as big a Brexiteer as anyone. I agree Theresa May will be replaced at some time before the next election but cannot agree that the conservatives cannot regain a majority in the next few years as long as Corbyn and McDonnell are leading labour
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    Would you go down to the Bigg Market on a Friday night?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    alex. said:

    On the Conservative leadership, it seems to me that the various hopefuls are too disorganised and too unwilling to give way for others. So Theresa May looks set to survive as Prime Minister for now, even though a speedy replacement of her would probably be best for all concerned.

    Perhaps the return of MPs from their constituencies will concentrate minds.

    Yes, they will probably be given the strong message to stop mucking around politicking against each other and focus on governing in the national interest.
    Given two thirds of Conservative voters (Survation) are agin May resigning I hope it focusses a few minds.....
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    #prayforGallowgate
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited June 2017

    Not all polls were found out during the GE - that is wrong. Survation and the YouGov model were both spot on, it's why they are the only two pollsters doing polls right now. Remember, Survation's last polls had a Conservative lead of 1%? And the YouGov model continually predicted a hung parliament and places like Canterbury going Labour?

    That said, I would imagine the Conservatives would not be displeased with this poll and I'm amused that there are any PB Tories in a panic over it. For the kind of awful week the government, and in particular May has had, Labour I think will be disappointed to see that they only have a 3 point lead over a government in this much chaos.

    Probably also an element of 44% voted for May 2 weeks ago and are fed up being told by the London media that they were wrong. And for all the frenzy going on, it needs to be remembered that the week's events possibly look very different from outside the capital.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,320
    My immediate concern is for security for Wednesday's state opening of Parliament

    There will be those who want to try to stop the QS but that must not be allowed to happen
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    "There'll be no running commentary".

    http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-no-running-commentary-on-brexit-negotiations-10568803

    I think there just might be - see coverage on pages 1-14.

    Laughable then, hilarious now.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,311
    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    You'll be fine. Remember you're from that part of the world where the football fans don't wear shirts even in December.
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    Are we still able to point out that the poll is within margin of error of the election result? Or does MoE not exist anymore?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488
    edited June 2017
    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    Well 52% voted Leave, the county went mad long before June 8th.

    Edit - And don't even get me started on people who put pineapple on their pizzas.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,730

    Richard_H said:

    It seems to me that Labour stategists have been very clever, in gaining votes from those who are on both sides of Brexit debate, as well as younger voters. The Tories enabled this to happen, because of talk about a hard Brexit and just leaving the EU going onto WTO terms. This would frighten many ordinary people who supported Brexit, but only to gain control of borders and regain full democratic accountability in London. Most people who supported Brexit, won't accept Brexit if it would make their families worse off and the Tories frightened enough people not to win a majority. Whoever was in control of Tory strategy has lost the trust of too many people to gain a majority in the next few years and it is inevitable that Theresa May will be replaced.

    But Corbyn is as big a Brexiteer as anyone. I agree Theresa May will be replaced at some time before the next election but cannot agree that the conservatives cannot regain a majority in the next few years as long as Corbyn and McDonnell are leading labour
    I think more precisely Corbyn is one of the very few politicians who doesn't care one way or the other about Brexit. It allows him to be both vague and opportunist.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,291
    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    On that poll UKIP and the Greens are both defunct. With things finely balanced between Con and Lab I guess most votes see a binary choice, at least until a new gap in the market appears.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    @DavidL No people haven't gone mad. Given how Labour did during the GE, how can anyone be shocked to see Labour polling above 40%? Labour supporters by and large are not taking what the right wing press say seriously anymore, and Corbyn comes across as fairly reasonable on TV and in the media generally especially to a voter who does not know about his past history and statements. Plus, the government is in chaos and many are discontented with the situation right now and Labour is a way for many to register that discontent.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488
    Well done to Tim Farron and the Lib Dem targeting team, Survation note

    'Voters who had previously voted Lib Dem, in both 2010 and 2015, did not return to the party, with Lib Dem vote share contracting nationally from the last election.'
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,291
    edited June 2017
    alex. said:

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
    Survation was on the money.
    The stage is set for an equally large polling disaster in the other direction next time. Especially if Corbyn is still leader and it turns out that a lot of older voters stayed at home this time because of the "dementia tax etc" AND, importantly, a (correct as it happened) belief that Corbyn couldn't win.
    a) the head guy at a Survation maintains it wasn't just about turnout, and said that his final poll would point to a balanced parliament even if 2015 patterns of turnout were applied to the sample;

    b) your argument doesn't follow, for those pollsters who use self-reported likelihood to vote. If older voters become re-engaged then presumably they will say that they intend to vote next time?
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Shocking fires in Portugal, btw.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,730
    edited June 2017
    I go with this from Edmund FPT. Politicians of all stripes are being grossly irresponsible. That includes May over the last year.

    How long are they going to keep faffing around? This situation will be horrible for negotiations: The British side will all be trying to undermine each other to position for the leadership, they'll be making up ludicrous red lines to satisfy the base and nobody will take anything May says seriously because they're not sure if she'll still be in the job in a fortnight. FFS.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    Well 52% voted Leave, the county went mad long before June 8th.

    Edit - And don't even get me started on people who put pineapple on their pizzas.
    What do you call those people who voted Leave AND put pineapple on their pizza?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,291
    FF43 said:

    Richard_H said:

    It seems to me that Labour stategists have been very clever, in gaining votes from those who are on both sides of Brexit debate, as well as younger voters. The Tories enabled this to happen, because of talk about a hard Brexit and just leaving the EU going onto WTO terms. This would frighten many ordinary people who supported Brexit, but only to gain control of borders and regain full democratic accountability in London. Most people who supported Brexit, won't accept Brexit if it would make their families worse off and the Tories frightened enough people not to win a majority. Whoever was in control of Tory strategy has lost the trust of too many people to gain a majority in the next few years and it is inevitable that Theresa May will be replaced.

    But Corbyn is as big a Brexiteer as anyone. I agree Theresa May will be replaced at some time before the next election but cannot agree that the conservatives cannot regain a majority in the next few years as long as Corbyn and McDonnell are leading labour
    I think more precisely Corbyn is one of the very few politicians who doesn't care one way or the other about Brexit. It allows him to be both vague and opportunist.
    So long as he isn't responsible for it, he just needs to a smidgin softer than the Tories along the Brexit scale, to retain all the leavers onside whilst being posioned to blame the Tories when their Brexit goes wrong. The finely balanced new Parliament gives him a problem in that Labour votes could easily matter, combined with the Tory remainers, and if he is not careful his position might fall apart. Ultimately a second referendum could become the only way to escape from their position on the fence.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    Well 52% voted Leave, the county went mad long before June 8th.

    Edit - And don't even get me started on people who put pineapple on their pizzas.
    What do you call those people who voted Leave AND put pineapple on their pizza?
    The lowest of the low.

    I'd revoke their British citizenship and exile them to the Pitcairn Islands.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    Number 1 issue that decided your vote in the GE:

    OA - Con - Lab:

    Brexit: 12 - 18 - 6
    NHS: 10 - 2 - 21
    Economy: 8 - 11 - 6
    Party Leader: 8 - 12 - 6
    Tribal Loyalty: 8 - 8 - 11
    Immigration: 7 - 12 - 3
    Education: 3 - 1 - 5
    Pensions/Retirement: 0 - 0 - 1
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,291

    @DavidL No people haven't gone mad. Given how Labour did during the GE, how can anyone be shocked to see Labour polling above 40%? Labour supporters by and large are not taking what the right wing press say seriously anymore, and Corbyn comes across as fairly reasonable on TV and in the media generally especially to a voter who does not know about his past history and statements. Plus, the government is in chaos and many are discontented with the situation right now and Labour is a way for many to register that discontent.

    The gutter press's influence is gone.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited June 2017

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    Well 52% voted Leave, the county went mad long before June 8th.

    Edit - And don't even get me started on people who put pineapple on their pizzas.
    What do you call those people who voted Leave AND put pineapple on their pizza?
    The lowest of the low.

    I'd revoke their British citizenship and exile them to the Pitcairn Islands.
    Sub-human scum seems appropriate :)

    (full disclosure, I love pineapple pizza)
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    Isn't there a well documented phenomenon that people like to back the "winner" (even if, objectively speaking, they actually lost)
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    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    I live less than two miles from Gerrards Cross, trust me you will be fine.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488
    So will the Don tweet about the events in Finsbury Park?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    IanB2 said:

    FF43 said:

    Richard_H said:

    It seems to me that Labour stategists have been very clever, in gaining votes from those who are on both sides of Brexit debate, as well as younger voters. The Tories enabled this to happen, because of talk about a hard Brexit and just leaving the EU going onto WTO terms. This would frighten many ordinary people who supported Brexit, but only to gain control of borders and regain full democratic accountability in London. Most people who supported Brexit, won't accept Brexit if it would make their families worse off and the Tories frightened enough people not to win a majority. Whoever was in control of Tory strategy has lost the trust of too many people to gain a majority in the next few years and it is inevitable that Theresa May will be replaced.

    But Corbyn is as big a Brexiteer as anyone. I agree Theresa May will be replaced at some time before the next election but cannot agree that the conservatives cannot regain a majority in the next few years as long as Corbyn and McDonnell are leading labour
    I think more precisely Corbyn is one of the very few politicians who doesn't care one way or the other about Brexit. It allows him to be both vague and opportunist.
    So long as he isn't responsible for it, he just needs to a smidgin softer than the Tories along the Brexit scale, to retain all the leavers onside whilst being posioned to blame the Tories when their Brexit goes wrong. The finely balanced new Parliament gives him a problem in that Labour votes could easily matter, combined with the Tory remainers, and if he is not careful his position might fall apart. Ultimately a second referendum could become the only way to escape from their position on the fence.

    The main challenge that Corbyn and McDonnell face is that their position is a minority one within Labour - to the extent that it is shared by almost nobody else. MPs, members, CLPs and unions are all opposed to a hard Brexit. Should push comes to shove, the leadership will not be able to sustain a position that is so unpopular. Right now, the Tories are gifting Labour breathing space on this because they are so divided. But they will do what the always do and pull together eventually.

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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,730
    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    The Conservatives used to have the reputation of being sensible, competent and careful with people's prosperity. Since Brexit they have thrown that reputation away, meaning they don't have any credibility when they try to call out Labour for being a risk to the country.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    There should be another General Election this year

    Net Support:
    OA: -15
    Con: -64
    Lab: +31
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I do hope that any response to the anti islamic attack is proportionate and can't be perceived as 'biased'.

    Irrespective, I'm sure some elements will try to portray it as such.
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    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    So will the Don tweet about the events in Finsbury Park?

    Sincerely hope not, things are bad enough as it is.

    Country is in a terrible state right now.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488
    edited June 2017
    There's going to be a few upset Nats....

    https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/876692276277370882

    John Swinney has become the latest SNP figure to hint that Nicola Sturgeon is preparing to abandon her independence referendum timetable, after a senior MP suggested the vote should be “parked”.

    The deputy first minister, Ms Sturgeon’s most senior cabinet ally, suggested a vote is now a matter of if rather than when, in a clear departure from his party’s emphatic stance before it lost 21 seats at the general election.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    I live less than two miles from Gerrards Cross, trust me you will be fine.
    Gerrards Cross is not in London... its in Bucks
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited June 2017

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    This is rubbish IMO. The EU referendum result did not "create" a deeply divided country, it was the consequence of it. Just as easy to make a case for Brown. Or Blair. Or, of course, Thatcher. The divide in the country is between the haves and the have nots. And it all comes down to the insoluble problem that is the property market.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited June 2017

    There's going to be a few upset Nats....

    twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/876692276277370882

    John Swinney has become the latest SNP figure to hint that Nicola Sturgeon is preparing to abandon her independence referendum timetable, after a senior MP suggested the vote should be “parked”.

    The deputy first minister, Ms Sturgeon’s most senior cabinet ally, suggested a vote is now a matter of if rather than when, in a clear departure from his party’s emphatic stance before it lost 21 seats at the general election.

    I've said it before.. May's kamikaze election may have just saved the Union. :p
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    Blue_rog said:

    I do hope that any response to the anti islamic attack is proportionate and can't be perceived as 'biased'.

    Irrespective, I'm sure some elements will try to portray it as such.

    Pro-Islamic State channels are using reports of the incident in Finsbury Park to incite Muslims, according to groups which monitor jihadists.

    One pro-Isis post said “Oh Muslims you need to wake up the war starting on your own streets”. It also questioned why the police didn’t shoot dead the attacker.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/19/north-london-van-incident-finsbury-park-casualties-collides-pedestrians-live-updates

    On the latter point, at a guess 'he'd already been apprehended, was not stabbing people and did not appear to be wearing a suicide vest'
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    The Tories have performed disastrously since they won in 2015. They have split the country and set it on a path to lower economic growth and declining influence. That is not a strategy to win votes. In a two-party, first past the post system, the alternative to the Tories is Labour. That is why Labour is ahead. It is deeply insulting to voters to expect them to continue to back the Tories even when they are demonstrating that they are not fit to govern,

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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    Do you really believe this nonsense?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
    Survation was on the money.
    Luck or judgment?
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    Gerrards Cross must have moved
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    GeoffHGeoffH Posts: 56
    currystar said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    Do you really believe this nonsense?
    It looks as if he does. He writes like a 6th from Trot.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    alex. said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    This is rubbish IMO. The EU referendum result did not "create" a deeply divided country, it was the consequence of it. Just as easy to make a case for Brown. Or Blair. Or, of course, Thatcher. The divide in the country is between the haves and the have nots. And it all comes down to the insoluble problem that is the property market.

    May framed the last election as a battle between patriots and saboteurs. If that is not drawing dividing lines, I do not know what is.

    The property market is not insoluble. But solving it is politically inconvenient. The Tories need the votes of people who own their own homes and want to see their values maintained.
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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    Gerrards Cross must have moved
    Perhaps he meant "travelling towards London"? Marching towards the guns...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,044

    Blue_rog said:

    I do hope that any response to the anti islamic attack is proportionate and can't be perceived as 'biased'.

    Irrespective, I'm sure some elements will try to portray it as such.

    Pro-Islamic State channels are using reports of the incident in Finsbury Park to incite Muslims, according to groups which monitor jihadists.

    One pro-Isis post said “Oh Muslims you need to wake up the war starting on your own streets”. It also questioned why the police didn’t shoot dead the attacker.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/19/north-london-van-incident-finsbury-park-casualties-collides-pedestrians-live-updates

    On the latter point, at a guess 'he'd already been apprehended, was not stabbing people and did not appear to be wearing a suicide vest'
    The BBC broadcast an interview with an eyewitness who made the same point, and claimed it took a long time for ambulances to get to the scene. Not a helpful interview to broadcast IMO.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,824
    Given the circumstances it does seem rather amazing that Con is still over 40%!
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    Well 52% voted Leave, the county went mad long before June 8th.

    Edit - And don't even get me started on people who put pineapple on their pizzas.
    Pizza is an abomination. Pineapple is nice for you and much healthier :)
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    Well 52% voted Leave, the county went mad long before June 8th.

    Edit - And don't even get me started on people who put pineapple on their pizzas.
    Pizza is an abomination. Pineapple is nice for you and much healthier :)
    Hm... what if I put twice as much on my pizza?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    currystar said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    Do you really believe this nonsense?

    Yes. I believe that Brexit has already reduced our influence in the world and will continue to do so; it is now beginning to make us poorer. And we are certainly a profoundly divided society.

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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Charles said:

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    No, not at all, the polls were found out again at the GE. Why anyone bets based on what the polls are showing is beyond me.

    I feel sure a lot of people lost a lot of money because of the polls and that's a serious matter for a betting blog.
    Survation was on the money.
    Luck or judgment?
    Judgement, I think. Survation's secret sauce was to believe self-reported likelihood to vote. Prosser and the BES study validated this, as, with hindsight, did the election result.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Charles said:

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    Isn't there a well documented phenomenon that people like to back the "winner" (even if, objectively speaking, they actually lost)

    Yep - I can't remember a party that has won the most votes in an election moving behind in the polling so soon after the election was held. It's not even two weeks, is it?

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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    Deeply divided?

    This place is getting ridiculous, 99% of the population go about their everyday lives without ever thinking about politics.

    Some people's obsession with party politics is very worrying, it must be remembered that very few politicians give a toss about the people they represent.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If it's ok for Italians to put potato on pizza (to be fair, it works surprisingly well), it's ok for me to put pineapple on pizza. I don't get the need to be purist about this.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    Should there be another referendum on the UK's membership of the EU once negotiations are complete?

    Net support:
    OA: -19
    Con: -58
    Lab: +17
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited June 2017

    So will the Don tweet about the events in Finsbury Park?

    Is it worrying that my first thought was you referring to PB's mysterious 'Don' who posted seemingly inside campaign info in the run up to GE 2010 & why on earth he'd reappear to do so now?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    Charles said:

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    Isn't there a well documented phenomenon that people like to back the "winner" (even if, objectively speaking, they actually lost)

    Yep - I can't remember a party that has won the most votes in an election moving behind in the polling so soon after the election was held. It's not even two weeks, is it?

    Similar to 1979, although polling was less frequent then.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    On polling accuracy -- it is as well we do not have electronic voting. Can you imagine the calls for judge-led inquiries into Russian hacking after an election result which seemed so at odds with: (a) polling, (b) betting and (c) canvass reports from both parties?
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    Richard_HRichard_H Posts: 48

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    Agree with this. The Tories have always been split on Europe and Cameron dragged the rest of the country into it. If the referendum had not taken place, i doubt too many would be that bothered compared to other issues.

    I could see it get to the stage, where enough Tory MP's vote with most Labour MP's to block legislation or budget measures, that the Government would throw in the towell. There is no majority in Parliament for a harder WTO version of Brexit.

    There is no chance of Tories with DUP support governing for a full 5 year term. There is likely to be another election in 2018 or 19.
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    alex. said:

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    Gerrards Cross must have moved
    Perhaps he meant "travelling towards London"? Marching towards the guns...
    Oh I see, he needs to be careful, Gerrards Cross makes Soweto and Grozny look like heaven on earth.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    The Tory score in that poll is very good considering the mood music since the election. The Labour figure is incredible. Have the people of this country genuinely gone mad?

    The overall score of the big 2 is as high as I can recall seeing it. It appears that some Kippers wishing to go back to the 1950s have had at least a part of their wish granted after all. With the SNP probably on 4 % the Lib Dems, UKIP and the Greens are sharing 11% between them.

    Well 52% voted Leave, the county went mad long before June 8th.

    Edit - And don't even get me started on people who put pineapple on their pizzas.
    Pizza is an abomination. Pineapple is nice for you and much healthier :)
    Hm... what if I put twice as much on my pizza?
    No.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    Richard_H said:

    It seems to me that Labour stategists have been very clever, in gaining votes from those who are on both sides of Brexit debate, as well as younger voters. The Tories enabled this to happen, because of talk about a hard Brexit and just leaving the EU going onto WTO terms. This would frighten many ordinary people who supported Brexit, but only to gain control of borders and regain full democratic accountability in London. Most people who supported Brexit, won't accept Brexit if it would make their families worse off and the Tories frightened enough people not to win a majority. Whoever was in control of Tory strategy has lost the trust of too many people to gain a majority in the next few years and it is inevitable that Theresa May will be replaced.

    But Corbyn is as big a Brexiteer as anyone. I agree Theresa May will be replaced at some time before the next election but cannot agree that the conservatives cannot regain a majority in the next few years as long as Corbyn and McDonnell are leading labour

    If the Tories can demonstrate a level of competence over the coming years and find a way out of the huge Brexit hole they have dug for the country, there is certainly a way back for them. The electoral argument is over a few seats and few hundred thousand voters. Either of the two parties could win that - and with the return of the two party system in England and Wales both now have much higher floors than they did previously.

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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited June 2017

    Charles said:

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    Isn't there a well documented phenomenon that people like to back the "winner" (even if, objectively speaking, they actually lost)

    Yep - I can't remember a party that has won the most votes in an election moving behind in the polling so soon after the election was held. It's not even two weeks, is it?

    1979?

    http://www.markpack.org.uk/files/2017/04/PollBase.xls
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729

    alex. said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    This is rubbish IMO. The EU referendum result did not "create" a deeply divided country, it was the consequence of it. Just as easy to make a case for Brown. Or Blair. Or, of course, Thatcher. The divide in the country is between the haves and the have nots. And it all comes down to the insoluble problem that is the property market.

    May framed the last election as a battle between patriots and saboteurs
    Theresa May has rejected the Daily Mail's framing of her call for an early election as a bid to "crush the saboteurs"......
    Mrs May went on to condemn the Mail's coverage, saying it was "absolutely not" the description she would use for her critics.


    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-04-19/pm-rejects-daily-mails-saboteurs-election-headline-after-mcdonnell-criticises-nasty-coverage/
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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    Charles said:

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    Isn't there a well documented phenomenon that people like to back the "winner" (even if, objectively speaking, they actually lost)

    Yep - I can't remember a party that has won the most votes in an election moving behind in the polling so soon after the election was held. It's not even two weeks, is it?

    But then was there ever a fire at a tower block killing dozens of people straight away after an election where the 24 hour press put the blame solely on the prime minister.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,291
    edited June 2017

    alex. said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    This is rubbish IMO. The EU referendum result did not "create" a deeply divided country, it was the consequence of it. Just as easy to make a case for Brown. Or Blair. Or, of course, Thatcher. The divide in the country is between the haves and the have nots. And it all comes down to the insoluble problem that is the property market.

    May framed the last election as a battle between patriots and saboteurs
    Theresa May has rejected the Daily Mail's framing of her call for an early election as a bid to "crush the saboteurs"......
    Mrs May went on to condemn the Mail's coverage, saying it was "absolutely not" the description she would use for her critics.


    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-04-19/pm-rejects-daily-mails-saboteurs-election-headline-after-mcdonnell-criticises-nasty-coverage/
    Deniability is a wonderful thing. After the deed is done. She was repeatedly asked to condemn this appalling framing of the election at her final PMQs, and didn't.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    You think leaving the EU is horrific. I think it's a good thing. A generation from now, we'll know which of us is right.

    At least the break up of the UK (a real prospect three years ago) looks to have been averted.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Good morning, everyone.

    Surprisingly little churn in the polling given horrendous continual coverage of the Conservatives and a displeasing lack of condemnation from the press for a rabble-rousing fool who thinks seizing or occupying private property is a great idea.
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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    Good morning, everyone.

    Surprisingly little churn in the polling given horrendous continual coverage of the Conservatives and a displeasing lack of condemnation from the press for a rabble-rousing fool who thinks seizing or occupying private property is a great idea.

    I have a feeling lots of people think the coverage is just plain silly
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    currystar said:

    Charles said:

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    Isn't there a well documented phenomenon that people like to back the "winner" (even if, objectively speaking, they actually lost)

    Yep - I can't remember a party that has won the most votes in an election moving behind in the polling so soon after the election was held. It's not even two weeks, is it?

    But then was there ever a fire at a tower block killing dozens of people straight away after an election where the 24 hour press put the blame solely on the prime minister.
    The press has not blamed the prime minister for the fire. There have been complaints that her handling of the subsequent crisis was particularly inept. It now looks as if the government has largely caught up with measures that should have been announced immediately.
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    Blue_rog said:

    I do hope that any response to the anti islamic attack is proportionate and can't be perceived as 'biased'.

    Irrespective, I'm sure some elements will try to portray it as such.

    Pro-Islamic State channels are using reports of the incident in Finsbury Park to incite Muslims, according to groups which monitor jihadists.

    One pro-Isis post said “Oh Muslims you need to wake up the war starting on your own streets”. It also questioned why the police didn’t shoot dead the attacker.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/19/north-london-van-incident-finsbury-park-casualties-collides-pedestrians-live-updates

    On the latter point, at a guess 'he'd already been apprehended, was not stabbing people and did not appear to be wearing a suicide vest'
    The BBC broadcast an interview with an eyewitness who made the same point, and claimed it took a long time for ambulances to get to the scene. Not a helpful interview to broadcast IMO.
    No, mustn't let these people have their say. That would never do.
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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    currystar said:

    Charles said:

    All polls are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    Especially if you are a Tory and the numbers show that LAB is ahead
    Isn't there a well documented phenomenon that people like to back the "winner" (even if, objectively speaking, they actually lost)

    Yep - I can't remember a party that has won the most votes in an election moving behind in the polling so soon after the election was held. It's not even two weeks, is it?

    But then was there ever a fire at a tower block killing dozens of people straight away after an election where the 24 hour press put the blame solely on the prime minister.
    The press has not blamed the prime minister for the fire. There have been complaints that her handling of the subsequent crisis was particularly inept. It now looks as if the government has largely caught up with measures that should have been announced immediately.
    Really, did you see the headlines yesterday ?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Sean_F said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    You think leaving the EU is horrific. I think it's a good thing. A generation from now, we'll know which of us is right.

    At least the break up of the UK (a real prospect three years ago) looks to have been averted.

    I think leaving the EU in the utterly cack-handed, aggressive way the Tories have handled it over the last year is horrific. It has caused substantial damage to our international standing and made it much more likely we will suffer sustained economic harm. I thought the vote to leave the EU was unfortunate, but with care could have been a far from catastrophic development. Both you and I - as well as the wealthy establishment Tories who fronted the Leave and Remain campaigns - are almost entirely shielded from the consequences. Millions of others will not be so lucky.

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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203

    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    I know, the heat will be awful.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    Sean_F said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    You think leaving the EU is horrific. I think it's a good thing. A generation from now, we'll know which of us is right.

    At least the break up of the UK (a real prospect three years ago) looks to have been averted.
    Is it the participation of the DUP in the UK government that makes you think the union is secure?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729
    edited June 2017
    IanB2 said:

    alex. said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    This is rubbish IMO. The EU referendum result did not "create" a deeply divided country, it was the consequence of it. Just as easy to make a case for Brown. Or Blair. Or, of course, Thatcher. The divide in the country is between the haves and the have nots. And it all comes down to the insoluble problem that is the property market.

    May framed the last election as a battle between patriots and saboteurs
    Theresa May has rejected the Daily Mail's framing of her call for an early election as a bid to "crush the saboteurs"......
    Mrs May went on to condemn the Mail's coverage, saying it was "absolutely not" the description she would use for her critics.


    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-04-19/pm-rejects-daily-mails-saboteurs-election-headline-after-mcdonnell-criticises-nasty-coverage/
    Deniability is a wonderful thing. After the deed is done. She was repeatedly asked to condemn this appalling framing of the election at her final PMQs, and didn't.
    No politician ever answers the 'have you stopped beating your wife' question......Media Training 101.......focus on what you want to say.....but the point is, she didn't say it, and condemned the terms.....
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    Travelling to London today with work. Luckily I'll be in Gerrards Cross but I must admit I'm apprehensive.

    I know, the heat will be awful.
    The heat was pretty awful last night on the Piccadilly line tbh.

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,729

    Sean_F said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    You think leaving the EU is horrific. I think it's a good thing. A generation from now, we'll know which of us is right.

    At least the break up of the UK (a real prospect three years ago) looks to have been averted.
    Is it the participation of the DUP in the UK government that makes you think the union is secure?
    How are they participating? Which ministerial posts will they fill?
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203
    currystar said:

    A deeply divided country that is not at ease with itself is David Cameron's legacy. A poorer country, diminished in the world and still deeply divided will be Theresa May's legacy. The Tories really have screwed the UK over.

    Do you really believe this nonsense?
    Some of us do, and unlike many of those who seem to think British prosperity is just about waving flags harder, Southam has posted a great deal of intelligent analysis that backs his thinking up.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,141

    If it's ok for Italians to put potato on pizza (to be fair, it works surprisingly well), it's ok for me to put pineapple on pizza. I don't get the need to be purist about this.

    Or pureeist even..
This discussion has been closed.