On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.
Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
Yes. And I would add you to the list as well.
You have freely admitted you wish to see the end of the with it being subsumed into a federal state.
Ken Clarke in his infamous interview said he looked forward to a day when Parliament was nothing more than a council chamber in Europe. Now whilst it is a perfectly right and proper to hold such views and to campaign for them, they are incompatible with the concept of patriotism and with the belief in national self determination and national sovereignty.
The big BUT of course is that there is nothing in principle wrong with that. You and I share different views of the value of the nation state and of its place in the maintenance of democratic freedoms. Whilst I think you are wrong that does not mean I think you are evil or even mildly naughty. Just that when it comes to the specific concept of patriotism one cannot be a patriot and still believe in the end of the nation state.
Please realise I am in no way critical of you for this. You are continually open about your pro federalist views and that is just as justified a world view as that of Westphalian Sovereignty. It is just not a view I share.
Um. I think you said this morning that you campaigned to effectively " see the end of the UK ".
Quite right. But then I would never consider myself a patriot either. In case you missed it I was going out of my way not to criticise William. This is in my view an intellectual debate not a slanging match. My loyalty lies first and foremost to what I consider to be my country which is England. But even there it is only because I think it is the best reflection of democratic freedom, the best structure within which to allow as much freedom as possible. It is the same reason that as an Englishman I support Scots Independence as I believe it allows more democratic accountability than the current situation.
As I have said many times before what I don't understand are those who preach UK Independence from the EU but don't want to allow Scots Independence from the UK.
A couple of excellent posts from you this afternoon Richard.
On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.
Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
Yes. And I would add you to the list as well.
You have freely admitted you wish to see the end of the UK with it being subsumed into a federal state.
Ken Clarke in his infamous interview said he looked forward to a day when Parliament was nothing more than a council chamber in Europe. Now whilst it is a perfectly right and proper to hold such views and to campaign for them, they are incompatible with the concept of patriotism and with the belief in national self determination and national sovereignty.
The big BUT of course is that there is nothing in principle wrong with that. You and I share different views of the value of the nation state and of its place in the maintenance of democratic freedoms. Whilst I think you are wrong that does not mean I think you are evil or even mildly naughty. Just that when it comes to the specific concept of patriotism one cannot be a patriot and still believe in the end of the nation state.
Please realise I am in no way critical of you for this. You are continually open about your pro federalist views and that is just as justified a world view as that of Westphalian Sovereignty. It is just not a view I share.
Have you got a link to Clarke's quotation about the 'council chamber'? Not saying you're wrong, but Ken himself always insisted Norman Lamont made it up.
I have always seen it listed as being in an article in the International Currency Review, Vol. 23, No. 4. Since it is disseminated so widely and I had never seen a single refutation I have always taken it as being accurate.
If that's true then we need to get rid of her, even if it means a coronation for Boris. She is compromised by some kind of Rasputin type figure and is unable to let go.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
"After losing its majority in the election, the Conservative party is seeking to continue to govern with the help of Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party, whose politicians’ record on things scientific is abysmal.
The DUP once appointed an outright climate change denier as Northern Ireland’s environment minister, and its ministers have opposed climate measures. The party is fiercely opposed to abortion. Last year, one DUP assembly member called for creationism to be taught in schools. And another has admitted he thought only gay people could get HIV.
What’s more, in a post-election reshuffle, Prime Minister Theresa May has appointed Michael Gove as environment minister for England and Wales. Gove is infamous for his 2016 comment that “people in this country have had enough of experts”.
He reportedly tried to remove global warming from the school curriculum as education minister, and recently called for the abolition of European Union regulations protecting important wildlife habitats.
“His record of voting against measures to halt climate change and his attempt to wipe the subject from our children’s curriculum show him entirely unfit to lead our country in tackling one of the greatest threats we face,” the leader of the UK’s Green Party, Caroline Lucas, said in a statement." https://www.newscientist.com/article/2134472-science-and-climate-face-uncertain-future-in-post-election-uk/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
I'll tell you who definitely aren't patriots, the parents of that middle class twat who ran off to fight for ISIS.
Shit man. What would you do? Leave your son to die? I am not sure there is anything I wouldn't do to save my children including betraying all my beliefs. I am not saying they should not be punished but it is not a position that I envy at all.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
I agree the Tories will take the seat next time, mainly because the flow of white British people out of London will continue.
"After losing its majority in the election, the Conservative party is seeking to continue to govern with the help of Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party, whose politicians’ record on things scientific is abysmal.
The DUP once appointed an outright climate change denier as Northern Ireland’s environment minister, and its ministers have opposed climate measures. The party is fiercely opposed to abortion. Last year, one DUP assembly member called for creationism to be taught in schools. And another has admitted he thought only gay people could get HIV.
What’s more, in a post-election reshuffle, Prime Minister Theresa May has appointed Michael Gove as environment minister for England and Wales. Gove is infamous for his 2016 comment that “people in this country have had enough of experts”.
He reportedly tried to remove global warming from the school curriculum as education minister, and recently called for the abolition of European Union regulations protecting important wildlife habitats.
“His record of voting against measures to halt climate change and his attempt to wipe the subject from our children’s curriculum show him entirely unfit to lead our country in tackling one of the greatest threats we face,” the leader of the UK’s Green Party, Caroline Lucas, said in a statement." https://www.newscientist.com/article/2134472-science-and-climate-face-uncertain-future-in-post-election-uk/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
"After losing its majority in the election, the Conservative party is seeking to continue to govern with the help of Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party, whose politicians’ record on things scientific is abysmal.
The DUP once appointed an outright climate change denier as Northern Ireland’s environment minister, and its ministers have opposed climate measures. The party is fiercely opposed to abortion. Last year, one DUP assembly member called for creationism to be taught in schools. And another has admitted he thought only gay people could get HIV.
What’s more, in a post-election reshuffle, Prime Minister Theresa May has appointed Michael Gove as environment minister for England and Wales. Gove is infamous for his 2016 comment that “people in this country have had enough of experts”.
He reportedly tried to remove global warming from the school curriculum as education minister, and recently called for the abolition of European Union regulations protecting important wildlife habitats.
“His record of voting against measures to halt climate change and his attempt to wipe the subject from our children’s curriculum show him entirely unfit to lead our country in tackling one of the greatest threats we face,” the leader of the UK’s Green Party, Caroline Lucas, said in a statement." https://www.newscientist.com/article/2134472-science-and-climate-face-uncertain-future-in-post-election-uk/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
I used to live in a Hampshire village. Some friends who moved there in the 60s said they often met people then who had never been out of the village in their lives. My friends said when they first moved there they found several shopkeepers refused to serve them as they weren't "local".
Which village is this?
I've lived in Hampshire all my life and have never encountered such attitudes.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
That isn't what I said? They are hardly going to give up on a seat they hold, but there should be some recognition that these seats are changing and may be lost inevitably anyway. They came for Edmonton, then Ilford North and now, perhaps, Chingford and Woodford Green.
If that's true then we need to get rid of her, even if it means a coronation for Boris. She is compromised by some kind of Rasputin type figure and is unable to let go.
May's toast anyway. Everyone domestically and internationally knows it. Does it really matter if she chats to some friends informally?
What a charming guy Macron is and what a contrast to the reptilian Johnson. If May wants to have any sort of successful Brexit her first move should be to sack Johnson.
I also think the Corbyn attacks wont work. The public heard the attack lines, saw that they bore no relation to the charming man who was campaigning, and made up their own mind.
May underestimated Corbyn. PB Tories are doing the same now
PB Corbynistas are also massively over estimating his abilities. He's good on the election stump, we all saw that, but he's crap in the business of Parliament and party management. If you stuck him on a permanent election campaign, away from the minutiae and tedium of day-to-day politics and decision making, he'd carry on happily until the day he dropped dead. Like a pig wallowing in shit.
But in the real world, where maturity and decisiveness are far more important than holding protest rallies with foaming hard left teenagers, he's hopeless.
He is uniquely unqualified to be a Prime Minister, and any prat should be able to discern that.
Much is being (rightly) made of TM's appalling strategy and presentation as major contributors to the GE mess but (and I think it should have been foreseen) Corbyn's performance was an at least equal factor in determining the outcome. Labour was hugely successful at identifying their best liars, and at putting only them in front of the electorate, and Corbyn was definitely the best of the bunch. The unconvincing were swiftly put into purdah; even Diane Abbott was hooked just in time but not before she'd done Labour's costings.
Yes I cannot believe one of the two main parties were able to get through the election campaign without any serious scrutiny of their policies. The costings were not even barely credible and the incoherence of the suite of policies frankly laughable. I heard one serious attempt to hold Labour to account on tax and how they had not allowed for people changing their behaviour, and I heard one person ask a shadow minister asked why bribing middle class with free tuition fees, was more important funding priority than schools l, NHS and welfare put together. Apart from that it t was woeful
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
That isn't what I said? They are hardly going to give up on a seat they hold, but there should be some recognition that these seats are changing and may be lost inevitably anyway. They came for Edmonton, then Ilford North and now, perhaps, Chingford and Woodford Green.
Conservative seats in London are now very few indeed. Your attitude seems to suggest that they should acquiesce to the demographic change rather than seek to reinvent Conservativism for London in 2020 and beyond.
Miss M, it was usual for medieval villagers to leave their village, whether to go on pilgrimage, visit the local market town, attend court or something else. It would be peculiar not to leave a village in the modern age. Given the reduction in village amenities, particularly banking, it would be even more so.
Much is being (rightly) made of TM's appalling strategy and presentation as major contributors to the GE mess but (and I think it should have been foreseen) Corbyn's performance was an at least equal factor in determining the outcome. Labour was hugely successful at identifying their best liars, and at putting only them in front of the electorate, and Corbyn was definitely the best of the bunch. The unconvincing were swiftly put into purdah; even Diane Abbott was hooked just in time but not before she'd done Labour's costings.
Yes I cannot believe one of the two main parties were able to get through the election campaign without any serious scrutiny of their policies. The costings were not even barely credible and the incoherence of the suite of policies frankly laughable. I heard one serious attempt to hold Labour to account on tax and how they had not allowed for people changing their behaviour, and I heard one person ask a shadow minister asked why bribing middle class with free tuition fees, was more important funding priority than schools l, NHS and welfare put together. Apart from that it t was woeful
Probably would have helped if May didnt hide Hammond away. The Tories chose to attack the personal rather than policy (Probably because they didnt want to argue policy either)
The real point to make is that there must be more to being proud of our country than waving flags, militarism, and ceremonies with people in fancy dress.
We should be proud of all our country's achievements, particularly in peacetime; our inventions and institutions that have been copied around the world, and be proud of our participation and standing in global institutions, which the Tories are currently intent on trashing.
Patriotism should be more London 2012 and less Royal Tournament.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote ith young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
That isn't what I said? They are hardly going to give up on a seat they hold, but there should be some recognition that these seats are changing and may be lost inevitably anyway. They came for Edmonton, then Ilford North and now, perhaps, Chingford and Woodford Green.
Ilford North and Edmonton would now only go Tory if the Tories got a majority well over 100 and close to Blair's landslides in 1997 and 2001 so they are probably gone. Chingford and Woodford Green though is just becoming a marginal seat, not a Labour seat ie if Labour get an overall majority they will probably win Chingford, if not it will likely be Tory
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
I agree the Tories will take the seat next time, mainly because the flow of white British people out of London will continue.
Corbyn's blueprint for Britain is to emulate metroplolitan London. Remember he described Islam as a 'wonderful religion'. I wonder how many of the middle class parents who voted for him truly understand what a dangerous lunatic he is.
Conservative seats in London are now very few indeed. Your attitude seems to suggest that they should acquiesce to the demographic change rather than seek to reinvent Conservativism for London in 2020 and beyond.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
It's not the Tories giving up on London as such, more their core voters giving up on London by moving elsewhere. This is just the same process as has already happened in the United States, where hardly any Republicans live in Manhattan or Washington DC.
What a charming guy Macron is and what a contrast to the reptilian Johnson. If May wants to have any sort of successful Brexit her first move should be to sack Johnson.
"Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.
Wasn't her point that there were some people who enjoy the protections and safety of the British state, whilst also feeling they owe it no loyalty?
Her exact words were:
"But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means."
She was making the suggestion that if you see yourself as part of the international community, you are a heartless bastard. The kind of boss that pays themselves huge salaries but treats their staff like dirt, that evades taxes and succours terrorists. And that's because they don't know who their fellow citizens are and care less.
"After losing its majority in the election, the Conservative party is seeking to continue to govern with the help of Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party, whose politicians’ record on things scientific is abysmal.
The DUP once appointed an outright climate change denier as Northern Ireland’s environment minister, and its ministers have opposed climate measures. The party is fiercely opposed to abortion. Last year, one DUP assembly member called for creationism to be taught in schools. And another has admitted he thought only gay people could get HIV.
What’s more, in a post-election reshuffle, Prime Minister Theresa May has appointed Michael Gove as environment minister for England and Wales. Gove is infamous for his 2016 comment that “people in this country have had enough of experts”.
He reportedly tried to remove global warming from the school curriculum as education minister, and recently called for the abolition of European Union regulations protecting important wildlife habitats.
“His record of voting against measures to halt climate change and his attempt to wipe the subject from our children’s curriculum show him entirely unfit to lead our country in tackling one of the greatest threats we face,” the leader of the UK’s Green Party, Caroline Lucas, said in a statement." https://www.newscientist.com/article/2134472-science-and-climate-face-uncertain-future-in-post-election-uk/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
Given Corbyn's record of support for Sinn Fein, opposition to the monarchy, lack of support for the army etc he will find it difficult to play the patriotism card.
Go back and read the article. It does not claim that Labout should say "We are more patriotic than you" but rather "You are hippocrites for claiming to be patriotic!"
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
I agree the Tories will take the seat next time, mainly because the flow of white British people out of London will continue.
It's not just ethnicity. Birth rates in London are high, so these outer London seats are becoming more youthful as pensioners are replaced by younger families. And of course London people are generally highly educated. East London has lots of self employed and small businesspeople. Once upon a time educated, ambitious businesspeople and their families would have been a strong demographic for Conservatives, but as the Tories reinvent themselves as the party for uneducated pensioners, their appeal in London will inevitably continue to decline. Cf. Kensington.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote ith young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
That isn't what I said? They are hardly going to give up on a seat they hold, but there should be some recognition that these seats are changing and may be lost inevitably anyway. They came for Edmonton, then Ilford North and now, perhaps, Chingford and Woodford Green.
Ilford North and Edmonton would now only go Tory if the Tories got a majority well over 100 and close to Blair's landslides in 1997 and 2001 so they are probably gone. Chingford and Woodford Green though is just becoming a marginal seat, not a Labour seat ie if Labour get an overall majority they will probably win Chingford, if not it will likely be Tory
Maybe, but now labour know IDS is vulnerable, they may out resource into ousting him
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
It's not the Tories giving up on London as such, more their core voters giving up on London by moving elsewhere. This is just the same process as has already happened in the United States, where hardly any Republicans live in Manhattan or Washington DC.
Or Paris where Macron comfortably beat Fillon in round 1 by more than he did nationally, cities are now as strong for the left as rural areas are for the right, suburbs and small towns and market towns are the key swing areas
The real point to make is that there must be more to being proud of our country than waving flags, militarism, and ceremonies with people in fancy dress.
We should be proud of all our country's achievements, particularly in peacetime; our inventions and institutions that have been copied around the world, and be proud of our participation and standing in global institutions, which the Tories are currently intent on trashing.
Patriotism should be more London 2012 and less Royal Tournament.
Can you patriotic and against born to be Head of state ? Because that is my position I am very proud of Yorkshire and support England in every team sport.
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
London and most other big cities. And with most people under the age of 35.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
It's not the Tories giving up on London as such, more their core voters giving up on London by moving elsewhere. This is just the same process as has already happened in the United States, where hardly any Republicans live in Manhattan or Washington DC.
Justin Greening is vulnerable in putney. 1000 majority and 12,000 voted for the lib dems instead of labour. Not much needed to get rid of her
As to your last point, as a patriot, I believe that MPs who are returned from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are entitled to participate in the government of this country.
This is a good point. If both Sinn Fein and the DUP are regarded as beyond the pale, where does that leave Northern Irish voters?
I thought this, and said so. I am used to being called all the names under the sun/banned/ignored for being a UKIP supporter, but now it seems the vast majority of Northern Irish people are equally nasty
Our Parliamentary arithmetic means that the DUP have influence. Even if there is no formal arrangement with them, every time they side with the Conservatives on a key vote, people will ask what they were offered in return. Far better to have this out in the open.
I also think the Corbyn attacks wont work. The public heard the attack lines, saw that they bore no relation to the charming man who was campaigning, and made up their own mind.
May underestimated Corbyn. PB Tories are doing the same now
PB Corbynistas are also massively over estimating his abilities. He's good on the election stump, we all saw that, but he's crap in the business of Parliament and party management. If you stuck him on a permanent election campaign, away from the minutiae and tedium of day-to-day politics and decision making, he'd carry on happily until the day he dropped dead. Like a pig wallowing in shit.
But in the real world, where maturity and decisiveness are far more important than holding protest rallies with foaming hard left teenagers, he's hopeless.
He is uniquely unqualified to be a Prime Minister, and any prat should be able to discern that.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour sily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote ith young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
That isn't what I said? They are hardly going to give up on a seat they hold, but there should be some recognition that these seats are changing and may be lost inevitably anyway. They came for Edmonton, then Ilford North and now, perhaps, Chingford and Woodford Green.
Ilford North and Edmonton would now only go Tory if the Tories got a majority well over 100 and close to Blair's landslides in 1997 and 2001 so they are probably gone. Chingford and Woodford Green though is just becoming a marginal seat, not a Labour seat ie if Labour get an overall majority they will probably win Chingford, if not it will likely be Tory
Maybe, but now labour know IDS is vulnerable, they may out resource into ousting him
So will Tories though in supporting him e.g. at this election myself and other Epping Forest Tories went to Ilford North and Dagenham to assist, next time we will go to Chingford instead of Ilford North
Given Corbyn's record of support for Sinn Fein, opposition to the monarchy, lack of support for the army etc he will find it difficult to play the patriotism card.
Go back and read the article. It does not claim that Labout should say "We are more patriotic than you" but rather "You are hippocrites for claiming to be patriotic!"
As I said Corbyn will even have difficulty playing that card
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
I agree the Tories will take the seat next time, mainly because the flow of white British people out of London will continue.
Corbyn's blueprint for Britain is to emulate metroplolitan London. Remember he described Islam as a 'wonderful religion'. I wonder how many of the middle class parents who voted for him truly understand what a dangerous lunatic he is.
Is that the state we're in now? Anyone who says anything polite about Islam is a lunatic?
Some of you people should consider what you'd sound like if you substituted "Jews" for "Muslims" and "Judaism" for "Islam".
I'll tell you who definitely aren't patriots, the parents of that middle class twat who ran off to fight for ISIS.
Shit man. What would you do? Leave your son to die? I am not sure there is anything I wouldn't do to save my children including betraying all my beliefs. I am not saying they should not be punished but it is not a position that I envy at all.
When I saw his parents on the news tonight they reminded me of the parents of the Lindsay Lohan character in Mean Girls.
I do think 'citizen of the world' is a bit of a weird idea, but the 'citizen of nowhere' line probably alienated some people without actually getting any benefit with others. I don't think it was clever, but I'm curious why it irritates you so much.
It made me think of this
Rootless cosmopolitan was a pejorative label used during the anti-Semitic campaign in the Soviet Union after World War II.[1]
Cosmopolitans were intellectuals who were accused of expressing pro-Western feelings and lack of patriotism. The term "rootless cosmopolitan" referred to Jewish intellectuals. It was popularized during the campaign in a Pravda article condemning a group of theatrical critics
Fair enough. I definitely think it was silly of her to make the comment she did.
Perhaps it's just envy, but there is a perception that there is a set of individuals - and businesses - who don't have a stake in the country. I say this as someone on the right, but I don't like it when it hear the argument that a group of people of businesses will leave the country if country does something that they don't like.
Perhaps it's true, perhaps Brexit will damage the City and we'll all regret that. But I keep thinking, we really shouldn't be relying upon such people and businesses that can take flight at the first sign of trouble.
I say this as a Thatcherite who wants people to be able to take care of themselves. But we should always remember that we will always have to some form of nation state to set the parameters within which we work.
Funnily enough if you google 'citizens of nowhere', one of the first things that appears is this essay by Rahul Rao, that makes exactly the same point as TSE, including the 'rootless cosmopolitan' phrase
I suspect that the perception of Ed Miliband as a rootless cosmopolitan contributed to Labour's particularly poor performance in GE2015. The Sun's front page on the day before GE2015 stressed this view.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
Conservative hold
LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638
CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076
LD Deborah Unger 2043
GRN Sinead King 1204
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
I agree the Tories will take the seat next time, mainly because the flow of white British people out of London will continue.
It's not just ethnicity. Birth rates in London are high, so these outer London seats are becoming more youthful as pensioners are replaced by younger families. And of course London people are generally highly educated. East London has lots of self employed and small businesspeople. Once upon a time educated, ambitious businesspeople and their families would have been a strong demographic for Conservatives, but as the Tories reinvent themselves as the party for uneducated pensioners, their appeal in London will inevitably continue to decline. Cf. Kensington.
The Tories wouldn't have just won the election if they were only appealing to uneducated pensioners. That description doesn't fit constituencies like Stratford-on-Avon and Beaconsfield where the Tories got over 60% very well IMO.
Given Corbyn's record of support for Sinn Fein, opposition to the monarchy, lack of support for the army etc he will find it difficult to play the patriotism card.
Go back and read the article. It does not claim that Labout should say "We are more patriotic than you" but rather "You are hippocrites for claiming to be patriotic!"
Thank-you!!!!
We'll take no lessons in patriotism from a Conservative party that has consistently put itself before the national interest is what Labour's retort to Tory flag-waving should be.
On an individual basis, it's hard to think of any Tories who are not patriotic. But institutionally the Conservative party is anything but.
The real point to make is that there must be more to being proud of our country than waving flags, militarism, and ceremonies with people in fancy dress.
We should be proud of all our country's achievements, particularly in peacetime; our inventions and institutions that have been copied around the world, and be proud of our participation and standing in global institutions, which the Tories are currently intent on trashing.
Patriotism should be more London 2012 and less Royal Tournament.
Can you patriotic and against born to be Head of state ? Because that is my position I am very proud of Yorkshire and support England in every team sport.
I would say yes of course. Personally I prefer a non elected, non political head of state - all the best European countries have them . But preferring an elected head of state makes you no less patriotic. Just a bit wrong
What a charming guy Macron is and what a contrast to the reptilian Johnson. If May wants to have any sort of successful Brexit her first move should be to sack Johnson.
The real point to make is that there must be more to being proud of our country than waving flags, militarism, and ceremonies with people in fancy dress.
We should be proud of all our country's achievements, particularly in peacetime; our inventions and institutions that have been copied around the world, and be proud of our participation and standing in global institutions, which the Tories are currently intent on trashing.
Patriotism should be more London 2012 and less Royal Tournament.
The article is not about patriotism. It is about the Tories' claim they are the patriotic party that always puts country first. They are clearly not. Labour should not let them get away with it. If I were to write an article about patriotism itself, it would look very different - but it would contain within it the idea that a true patriot never tells anyone else what his or her patriotism should look like.
Given Corbyn's record of support for Sinn Fein, opposition to the monarchy, lack of support for the army etc he will find it difficult to play the patriotism card.
Go back and read the article. It does not claim that Labout should say "We are more patriotic than you" but rather "You are hippocrites for claiming to be patriotic!"
Thank-you!!!!
We'll take no lessons in patriotism from a Conservative party that has consistently put itself before the national interest is what Labour's retort to Tory flag-waving should be.
On an individual basis, it's hard to think of any Tories who are not patriotic. But institutionally the Conservative party is anything but.
" We'll take no lessons blah blah blah ", have you rejoined Labour after recently flouncing out in disgust at Corbyn ?
I'll tell you who definitely aren't patriots, the parents of that middle class twat who ran off to fight for ISIS.
Shit man. What would you do? Leave your son to die? I am not sure there is anything I wouldn't do to save my children including betraying all my beliefs. I am not saying they should not be punished but it is not a position that I envy at all.
When I saw his parents on the news tonight they reminded me of the parents of the Lindsay Lohan character in Mean Girls.
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
Which is presumably why she included this section in her speech. If you don't believe in some principles you are a leader without principle, she could have gone on to say.
Given Corbyn's record of support for Sinn Fein, opposition to the monarchy, lack of support for the army etc he will find it difficult to play the patriotism card.
Go back and read the article. It does not claim that Labout should say "We are more patriotic than you" but rather "You are hippocrites for claiming to be patriotic!"
Thank-you!!!!
We'll take no lessons in patriotism from a Conservative party that has consistently put itself before the national interest is what Labour's retort to Tory flag-waving should be.
On an individual basis, it's hard to think of any Tories who are not patriotic. But institutionally the Conservative party is anything but.
" We'll take no lessons blah blah blah ", have you rejoined Labour after recently flouncing out in disgust at Corbyn ?
I am sorry that your English comprehension is not strong.
... If I were to write an article about patriotism itself, it would look very different - but it would contain within it the idea that a true patriot never tells anyone else what his or her patriotism should look like.
Says the guy who wrote in his article: "A truly patriotic party would have done none of the above", and who apparently thinks that one of the tests of patriotism is about what proportion of GDP should be spent on the NHS.
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
London and most other big cities. And with most people under the age of 35.
Amazing how many people renounce their citizenship of the world when they need help from an embassy or consulate...
What a charming guy Macron is and what a contrast to the reptilian Johnson. If May wants to have any sort of successful Brexit her first move should be to sack Johnson.
... If I were to write an article about patriotism itself, it would look very different - but it would contain within it the idea that a true patriot never tells anyone else what his or her patriotism should look like.
Says the guy who wrote in his article: "A truly patriotic party would have done none of the above"
The Labour line should be ...
And it is an attack on the party, not on individuals.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
Chingford & Woodford Green
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
I agree the Tories will take the seat next time, mainly because the flow of white British people out of London will continue.
It's not just ethnicity. Birth rates in London are high, so these outer London seats are becoming more youthful as pensioners are replaced by younger families. And of course London people are generally highly educated. East London has lots of self employed and small businesspeople. Once upon a time educated, ambitious businesspeople and their families would have been a strong demographic for Conservatives, but as the Tories reinvent themselves as the party for uneducated pensioners, their appeal in London will inevitably continue to decline. Cf. Kensington.
The Tories wouldn't have just won the election if they were only appealing to uneducated pensioners. That description doesn't fit constituencies like Stratford-on-Avon and Beaconsfield where the Tories got over 60% very well IMO.
Or places like Hertsmere, St. Alban's, Guildford, South Cambridgeshire, Solihull, Cheadle, Hazel Grove, Harrogate etc.
I think the biggest problem for the Conservatives in London is the gap between rich and poor. Take Enfield North, where I work. The skilled working class/lower middle class voters who used to live in Southbury, Turkey Street, Enfield Lock, Enfield Wash have moved away, and home owners have been replaced by renters.
That said, I think Labour will find it hard to go above 55% in London.
Given Corbyn's record of support for Sinn Fein, opposition to the monarchy, lack of support for the army etc he will find it difficult to play the patriotism card.
Go back and read the article. It does not claim that Labout should say "We are more patriotic than you" but rather "You are hippocrites for claiming to be patriotic!"
As I said Corbyn will even have difficulty playing that card
He should let others do that for him.
The question more is "what kind of Britain are you patriotic for?"
The Britain of the Stately home, or the Britain of the Tolpuddle martyrs? The Britain of the Proms, or the Britain of Glastonbury? The Britain of Kipling or the Britain of the Pals on the Somme?
We are a multifaceted nation and it is perfectly possible to feel strongly for some parts of our heritage, while being indifferent to other bits.
The real point to make is that there must be more to being proud of our country than waving flags, militarism, and ceremonies with people in fancy dress.
We should be proud of all our country's achievements, particularly in peacetime; our inventions and institutions that have been copied around the world, and be proud of our participation and standing in global institutions, which the Tories are currently intent on trashing.
Patriotism should be more London 2012 and less Royal Tournament.
Can you patriotic and against born to be Head of state ? Because that is my position I am very proud of Yorkshire and support England in every team sport.
I would say yes of course. Personally I prefer a non elected, non political head of state - all the best European countries have them . But preferring an elected head of state makes you no less patriotic. Just a bit wrong
Cheers Richard . I like the commenwealth games when they play Land of hope and glory for the English anthem.Makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end.
That little snippet of the HoC today on the news should tell everyone why the public could not bring itself to give either party a majority. Corbyn and May are equally crap.
The Tory vote (as opposed to share) was up slightly in London by 35,414 votes from 1,233,386 to 1,268,800 although it didn't do them much good with the increased turnout.
And it is an attack on the party, not on individuals.
It's not an attack on either. As you yourself admit, the idea that Conservatives are not patriotic is risible. What the article is is an attempt to find ways to counter the very real perception (very real because it's accurate) that the Labour Party has been taken over by a cabal of people whom many voters would regard as not very patriotic, or worse.
I also think the Corbyn attacks wont work. The public heard the attack lines, saw that they bore no relation to the charming man who was campaigning, and made up their own mind.
May underestimated Corbyn. PB Tories are doing the same now
PB Corbynistas are also massively over estimating his abilities. He's good on the election stump, we all saw that, but he's crap in the business of Parliament and party management. If you stuck him on a permanent election campaign, away from the minutiae and tedium of day-to-day politics and decision making, he'd carry on happily until the day he dropped dead. Like a pig wallowing in shit.
But in the real world, where maturity and decisiveness are far more important than holding protest rallies with foaming hard left teenagers, he's hopeless.
He is uniquely unqualified to be a Prime Minister, and any prat should be able to discern that.
Well the electorate disasgrees with that view
strictly speaking the electorate agrees with that view.
The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour sily.
That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
Not to forget Churchill!
I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote ith young families.
Just demographic change isn't it? For every loss of a Chingford there is a Penistone and Stocksbridge or Bishop Auckland waiting in the wings. Let's magnify the significance of a seat simple because it is in London.
So the Conservatives are simply going to give up on London completely?
That isn't what I said? They are hardly going to give up on a seat they hold, but there should be some recognition that these seats are changing and may be lost inevitably anyway. They came for Edmonton, then Ilford North and now, perhaps, Chingford and Woodford Green.
Ilford North and Edmonton would now only go Tory if the Tories got a majority well over 100 and close to Blair's landslides in 1997 and 2001 so they are probably gone. Chingford and Woodford Green though is just becoming a marginal seat, not a Labour seat ie if Labour get an overall majority they will probably win Chingford, if not it will likely be Tory
Maybe, but now labour know IDS is vulnerable, they may out resource into ousting him
So will Tories though in supporting him e.g. at this election myself and other Epping Forest Tories went to Ilford North and Dagenham to assist, next time we will go to Chingford instead of Ilford North
@ScottyNational: News : Nigerian Prince working at state Bank says he's starting to think that the SNP Indyref2 fundraising page might have been a scam
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
London and most other big cities. And with most people under the age of 35.
Amazing how many people renounce their citizenship of the world when they need help from an embassy or consulate...
Seriously? Your side and message were rejected just last week. We need a new inclusive one which appeals to our base and previous supporters in the 24-45 age range who have graduated recently and are unable to get on the property ladder with their wages being leeched by some parasitical (Tory) landlord. Many of those people consider themselves to be internationalist rather than nationalist, we need to get them back on side in the same way Dave was able to. May and your team are complete poison to them and have put off enough of our base to leave us in what feels like a worse position than 1997. At least then Labour were only able to win by copying us, May lost whole copying Labour and moves the centre ground of politics significantly to the left, for nothing. It's time for you to reflect on those failures and why your message is so unpopular with out key voters.
And it is an attack on the party, not on individuals.
It's not an attack on either. As you yourself admit, the idea that Conservatives are not patriotic is risible. What the article is is an attempt to find ways to counter the very real perception (very real because it's accurate) that the Labour Party has been taken over by a cabal of people whom many voters would regard as not very patriotic, or worse.
Yep - that is a huge issue for Labour, especially among working class voters. But I also took the opportunity to express a personal view that the Conservative party has a very real tendency to put its own interests above those of the country as a whole, while accusing others that do not share its views of being unpatriotic. And it's not just Corbyn and co, it's all "saboteurs" and "citizens of nowhere".
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
London and most other big cities. And with most people under the age of 35.
Amazing how many people renounce their citizenship of the world when they need help from an embassy or consulate...
Seriously? Your side and message were rejected just last week. We need a new inclusive one which appeals to our base and previous supporters in the 24-45 age range who have graduated recently and are unable to get on the property ladder with their wages being leeched by some parasitical (Tory) landlord. Many of those people consider themselves to be internationalist rather than nationalist, we need to get them back on side in the same way Dave was able to. May and your team are complete poison to them and have put off enough of our base to leave us in what feels like a worse position than 1997. At least then Labour were only able to win by copying us, May lost whole copying Labour and moves the centre ground of politics significantly to the left, for nothing. It's time for you to reflect on those failures and why your message is so unpopular with out key voters.
I'll tell you who definitely aren't patriots, the parents of that middle class twat who ran off to fight for ISIS.
Shit man. What would you do? Leave your son to die? I am not sure there is anything I wouldn't do to save my children including betraying all my beliefs. I am not saying they should not be punished but it is not a position that I envy at all.
When I saw his parents on the news tonight they reminded me of the parents of the Lindsay Lohan character in Mean Girls.
I can't answer that as I don't get the reference.
In the film, having home schooled the Lohan character whilst abroad (they're zoologists), they don't know how to discipline her when she causes trouble at her new school back in the US.
I'm probably being very unfair on them, but the parents of this lad are an organic farmer from Canada and an academic who has worked for Oxfam. Parents aren't always to blame for this sort of thing, but I couldn't help but think that perhaps they've had something to do with him doing what he's done.
Yep - that is a huge issue for Labour, especially among working class voters. But I also took the opportunity to express a personal view that the Conservative party has a very real tendency to put its own interests above those of the country as a whole, while accusing others that do not share its views of being unpatriotic. And it's not just Corbyn and co, it's all "saboteurs" and "citizens of nowhere".
Which Conservative called people 'saboteurs'? Wasn't that Gordon Brown's best mate Dacre?
Osborne urges the Tories to stick to austerity in today's Evening Standard, despite signs May is moving away from it in order to get a deal with the DUP and even his former ally Michael Gove has said ministers lead to listen to the concerns of the public about how services are funded http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40265875
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
London and most other big cities. And with most people under the age of 35.
Amazing how many people renounce their citizenship of the world when they need help from an embassy or consulate...
Seriously? Your side and message were rejected just last week. We need a new inclusive one which appeals to our base and previous supporters in the 24-45 age range who have graduated recently and are unable to get on the property ladder with their wages being leeched by some parasitical (Tory) landlord. Many of those people consider themselves to be internationalist rather than nationalist, we need to get them back on side in the same way Dave was able to. May and your team are complete poison to them and have put off enough of our base to leave us in what feels like a worse position than 1997. At least then Labour were only able to win by copying us, May lost whole copying Labour and moves the centre ground of politics significantly to the left, for nothing. It's time for you to reflect on those failures and why your message is so unpopular with out key voters.
Get a grip. 1997 was an order of magnitude worse.
Not for the right.
TM went to the country as Mrs Daily Mail. And lost. To Jeremy f*cking Corbyn.
The rightwing fantasy hit electoral reality.
This is a disaster. The implications are worse than 1997.
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
London and most other big cities. And with most people under the age of 35.
Amazing how many people renounce their citizenship of the world when they need help from an embassy or consulate...
Seriously? Your side and message were rejected just last week. We need a new inclusive one which appeals to our base and previous supporters in the 24-45 age range who have graduated recently and are unable to get on the property ladder with their wages being leeched by some parasitical (Tory) landlord. Many of those people consider themselves to be internationalist rather than nationalist, we need to get them back on side in the same way Dave was able to. May and your team are complete poison to them and have put off enough of our base to leave us in what feels like a worse position than 1997. At least then Labour were only able to win by copying us, May lost whole copying Labour and moves the centre ground of politics significantly to the left, for nothing. It's time for you to reflect on those failures and why your message is so unpopular with out key voters.
They still need to rid themselves of the sense of entitlement to government. The belief we hate people who are not like us. . That mother knows wats best and the very clear image that came through in the election that they would protect the top 3%. The concept of trickle down economics has lost its traction. Most people actually believe they are for the few not the many. Start showing some respect to those that disagree with you and give the majority of people a reason to vote for you.
RE: "Citizens of nowhere". I think a great many people in this country would say that anyone who genuinely thinks of themselves as a "citizen of the world" should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power. I suspect they would also, in general, not trust anyone of that view to have the county's interests at heart.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
London and most other big cities. And with most people under the age of 35.
Amazing how many people renounce their citizenship of the world when they need help from an embassy or consulate...
Seriously? Your side and message were rejected just last week. We need a new inclusive one which appeals to our base and previous supporters in the 24-45 age range who have graduated recently and are unable to get on the property ladder with their wages being leeched by some parasitical (Tory) landlord. Many of those people consider themselves to be internationalist rather than nationalist, we need to get them back on side in the same way Dave was able to. May and your team are complete poison to them and have put off enough of our base to leave us in what feels like a worse position than 1997. At least then Labour were only able to win by copying us, May lost whole copying Labour and moves the centre ground of politics significantly to the left, for nothing. It's time for you to reflect on those failures and why your message is so unpopular with out key voters.
2017 was miles better than 1997 and 2001, I campaigned in all 3, especially 2001 and 2017. In 1997 the Tories got 31% and 165 seats, in 2001 32% and 166 seats and in 2017 42% and 318 seats. In fact in terms of voteshare and seats 2017 was the second best Tory general election result after 2015 since 1992
Worse because we lost, but at least we lost to a Labour party carrying forwards Tory spending plans and copying Tory policies. As I said, this just feels worse. In 1997 the path back to power was difficult but fairly clear, grab the centre ground and hold onto the centre right, it took us a few attempts but we managed it with Dave. Today we're in power but I have no idea how we can win a majority in 2022 or 2027, May and her idiot advisors have moved the centre ground of politics to the left. Our party legitimised Labour's dire manifesto by pushing Ed Miliband's old policies. It didn't go unnoticed.
Today the path back to a majority is completely fucked, I have no idea how we will manage it and which leader will be able to deliver it. What message can capture this new leftist centre ground of politics while holding onto our centre right base? I haven't got a clue and, not to sound arrogant, I saw the how poorly May's brand of politics was going to play earlier than most people here and earlier than people in the party who kept telling me to be quiet when I pointed out the folly of attacking property rights and abandoning our free market credentials.
Comments
"After losing its majority in the election, the Conservative party is seeking to continue to govern with the help of Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party, whose politicians’ record on things scientific is abysmal.
The DUP once appointed an outright climate change denier as Northern Ireland’s environment minister, and its ministers have opposed climate measures. The party is fiercely opposed to abortion. Last year, one DUP assembly member called for creationism to be taught in schools. And another has admitted he thought only gay people could get HIV.
What’s more, in a post-election reshuffle, Prime Minister Theresa May has appointed Michael Gove as environment minister for England and Wales. Gove is infamous for his 2016 comment that “people in this country have had enough of experts”.
He reportedly tried to remove global warming from the school curriculum as education minister, and recently called for the abolition of European Union regulations protecting important wildlife habitats.
“His record of voting against measures to halt climate change and his attempt to wipe the subject from our children’s curriculum show him entirely unfit to lead our country in tackling one of the greatest threats we face,” the leader of the UK’s Green Party, Caroline Lucas, said in a statement."
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2134472-science-and-climate-face-uncertain-future-in-post-election-uk/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
But, they don't think like that. And Peston is a full blown federalist anyway.
I've lived in Hampshire all my life and have never encountered such attitudes.
But in the real world, where maturity and decisiveness are far more important than holding protest rallies with foaming hard left teenagers, he's hopeless.
He is uniquely unqualified to be a Prime Minister, and any prat should be able to discern that.
Most journalists do.
Many will disagree with that, and they are entitled to their own world view, but they need to understand that outside of London that's a pretty mainstream view.
The real point to make is that there must be more to being proud of our country than waving flags, militarism, and ceremonies with people in fancy dress.
We should be proud of all our country's achievements, particularly in peacetime; our inventions and institutions that have been copied around the world, and be proud of our participation and standing in global institutions, which the Tories are currently intent on trashing.
Patriotism should be more London 2012 and less Royal Tournament.
That's our party motto, right?
http://www.politico.eu/article/wolfgang-schauble-eu-door-remains-open-to-uk/
The conspiracy widens!
Full speech here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-speech-tory-conference-2016-in-full-transcript-a7346171.html
The man is a cu*t the like of which we haven't seen before even in the Tory Party.
"We are more patriotic than you" but rather
"You are hippocrites for claiming to be patriotic!"
Liverpool Walton (Dan Carden MP) 85.7%
Knowsley (George Howarth) 85.3%
Liverpool Riverside (Louise Ellman) 84.5%
Bootle (Peter Dowd) 84%
East Ham (Stephen Timms) 83.2%
Liverpool West Derby (Stephen Twigg) 82.8%
Birmingham Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) 82.7%
Tottenham (David Lammy) 81.6%
Birmingham Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne) 81.1%
Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) 80.6%
Some of you people should consider what you'd sound like if you substituted "Jews" for "Muslims" and "Judaism" for "Islam".
We'll take no lessons in patriotism from a Conservative party that has consistently put itself before the national interest is what Labour's retort to Tory flag-waving should be.
On an individual basis, it's hard to think of any Tories who are not patriotic. But institutionally the Conservative party is anything but.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4600816/Macron-prepare-watch-England-France-friendly.html
If you don't believe in some principles you are a leader without principle, she could have gone on to say.
https://twitter.com/MikePlankMP/status/874667262741008384
And it is an attack on the party, not on individuals.
The question more is "what kind of Britain are you patriotic for?"
The Britain of the Stately home, or the Britain of the Tolpuddle martyrs? The Britain of the Proms, or the Britain of Glastonbury? The Britain of Kipling or the Britain of the Pals on the Somme?
We are a multifaceted nation and it is perfectly possible to feel strongly for some parts of our heritage, while being indifferent to other bits.
https://twitter.com/jantalipinski/status/874689435786498048
I'm probably being very unfair on them, but the parents of this lad are an organic farmer from Canada and an academic who has worked for Oxfam. Parents aren't always to blame for this sort of thing, but I couldn't help but think that perhaps they've had something to do with him doing what he's done.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40265875
TM went to the country as Mrs Daily Mail. And lost. To Jeremy f*cking Corbyn.
The rightwing fantasy hit electoral reality.
This is a disaster. The implications are worse than 1997.
. That mother knows wats best and the very clear image that came through in the election that they would
protect the top 3%. The concept of trickle down economics has lost its traction. Most people actually believe
they are for the few not the many. Start showing some respect to those that disagree with you and give the
majority of people a reason to vote for you.
Today the path back to a majority is completely fucked, I have no idea how we will manage it and which leader will be able to deliver it. What message can capture this new leftist centre ground of politics while holding onto our centre right base? I haven't got a clue and, not to sound arrogant, I saw the how poorly May's brand of politics was going to play earlier than most people here and earlier than people in the party who kept telling me to be quiet when I pointed out the folly of attacking property rights and abandoning our free market credentials.
Reason is two Peers now out because didn't attend during the last parliamentary year - one Con, one Lab.
So State of the Parties as new session begins:
Con 252, Lab 200, LD 102, Other parties 14, Crossbench 175, Non-affiliated 30, Bishops 25, Total 798.