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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s time for Labour to push back against Tory plastic patriot

SystemSystem Posts: 12,260
edited June 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s time for Labour to push back against Tory plastic patriotism

Labour has allowed the Conservative party to question its patriotism and take sole ownership of the Union Jack. That is a mistake, says Joff Wild – particularly in light of what has happened over recent years

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    Ooh first, rather like Mrs M I suppose
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    Top piece Joff, and second like Labour/Corbyn
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited June 2017
    Third, because someone just stole second from me :(
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Many thanks TSE, i shall hopefully harass you soon
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/874659115733307394

    Well
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    Southam, I voted for Brexit and I consider that I was acting with my country's best interests in mind.

    As to your last point, as a patriot, I believe that MPs who are returned from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are entitled to participate in the government of this country.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    corporeal said:

    Many thanks TSE, i shall hopefully harass you soon

    Look forward to it.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "What was Patriotic..." gave up after the 3rd one. Reads like a politicians speech to conference.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    DanSmith said:

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/874659115733307394

    Well

    There is no hope for her if she is. I doubt she is still seeking advice from them, probably some MP behind the scenes trying to get leadership change talk going again.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    I'm not sure that making a list of things Joff (or Labour) don't like and calling them 'unpatriotic' will get much traction. It's as empty as saying 'living above our means isn't patriotic'.

    Voters are not that stupid. They can tell the difference between policies they might not like and positions which are not patriotic - most notably, supporting or sympathising with our enemies, or failing to support our servicemen and women. Things like this for example:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/britain-has-not-fought-just-war-since-1945-says-jeremy-corbyn/

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/811474/Jeremy-Corbyn-prime-minister-Falkland-Islands-grab-Argentina-General-Election

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/21/growing-row-jeremy-corbyns-links-ira-refuses-five-times-condemn/

    So, for as long as the present leadership are in place, it's best for Labour to change the subject.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    edited June 2017
    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,206
    DanSmith said:

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/874659115733307394

    Well

    You can't blame her. The sort of high quality advice they dispensed can't just be obtained from any muppet down the pub.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    I find it difficult to criticise people holding elections. I had enough Cons berating Dave for holding the referendum because the little people didn't understand it and likewise, I have a problem with criticism of the calling of the GE just now. Of course that comes with the understanding that it was blatantly, shamelessly opportunistic also.

    As for patriotism, it's a bad point to make with the current leadership. Jeremy is no D-Day war hero a la Denis Healey. Despite the mud slung, the fact remains that they have thought and perhaps still think that the British State is an imperialist oppressor.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,764
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    I do think people who call themselves "citizens of the world" are a bit twattish to be honest.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Sean_F said:

    As to your last point, as a patriot, I believe that MPs who are returned from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are entitled to participate in the government of this country.

    This is a good point. If both Sinn Fein and the DUP are regarded as beyond the pale, where does that leave Northern Irish voters?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Eagles, why?

    I do think 'citizen of the world' is a bit of a weird idea, but the 'citizen of nowhere' line probably alienated some people without actually getting any benefit with others. I don't think it was clever, but I'm curious why it irritates you so much.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    isam said:

    "What was Patriotic..." gave up after the 3rd one. Reads like a politicians speech to conference.

    I didn't even get that far.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Sean_F said:

    As to your last point, as a patriot, I believe that MPs who are returned from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are entitled to participate in the government of this country.

    This is a good point. If both Sinn Fein and the DUP are regarded as beyond the pale, where does that leave Northern Irish voters?
    I thought this, and said so. I am used to being called all the names under the sun/banned/ignored for being a UKIP supporter, but now it seems the vast majority of Northern Irish people are equally nasty
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,764
    edited June 2017
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Sean_F said:

    As to your last point, as a patriot, I believe that MPs who are returned from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are entitled to participate in the government of this country.

    This is a good point. If both Sinn Fein and the DUP are regarded as beyond the pale, where does that leave Northern Irish voters?
    Not quite sure beyond the pale is a helpful term in N Irish politics.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    I do think people who call themselves "citizens of the world" are a bit twattish to be honest.
    Just slightly!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,405
    I think identifying yourself with the national interest is different from naked calls to patriotism. Brexit is more the first of these, where what's in the interest of the Conservative Party, leaving the EU and perceptions of what is in the national interest have become horribly conflated.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    I do think people who call themselves "citizens of the world" are a bit twattish to be honest.
    I'd never use that line myself.

    All it made me think of is 'rootless cosmopolitan'

    (I know that was not her intention, but that's where my mind went)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Jonathan said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Sean_F said:

    As to your last point, as a patriot, I believe that MPs who are returned from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are entitled to participate in the government of this country.

    This is a good point. If both Sinn Fein and the DUP are regarded as beyond the pale, where does that leave Northern Irish voters?
    Not quite sure beyond the pale is a helpful term in N Irish politics.
    True!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    Joff back on the Labour train by the looks of things :>
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,764
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Greatly upset a colleague, British Citizen, born overseas, married to a European raising a daughter in London.

    Totally unnecessary.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    isam said:

    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    I do think people who call themselves "citizens of the world" are a bit twattish to be honest.
    Just slightly!
    Usually found on twitter or on a gap year
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, why?

    I do think 'citizen of the world' is a bit of a weird idea, but the 'citizen of nowhere' line probably alienated some people without actually getting any benefit with others. I don't think it was clever, but I'm curious why it irritates you so much.

    It made me think of this

    Rootless cosmopolitan was a pejorative label used during the anti-Semitic campaign in the Soviet Union after World War II.[1]

    Cosmopolitans were intellectuals who were accused of expressing pro-Western feelings and lack of patriotism. The term "rootless cosmopolitan" referred to Jewish intellectuals. It was popularized during the campaign in a Pravda article condemning a group of theatrical critics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    It certainly pushed my buttons, being there in person. I clapped it to the rafters!

    On reflection, it's a bit strong for a Prime Minister to say - even a Tory one.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    I'm not sure that making a list of things Joff (or Labour) don't like and calling them 'unpatriotic' will get much traction. It's as empty as saying 'living above our means isn't patriotic'.

    Voters are not that stupid. They can tell the difference between policies they might not like and positions which are not patriotic - most notably, supporting or sympathising with our enemies, or failing to support our servicemen and women. Things like this for example:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/britain-has-not-fought-just-war-since-1945-says-jeremy-corbyn/

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/811474/Jeremy-Corbyn-prime-minister-Falkland-Islands-grab-Argentina-General-Election

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/21/growing-row-jeremy-corbyns-links-ira-refuses-five-times-condemn/

    So, for as long as the present leadership are in place, it's best for Labour to change the subject.

    ...yet in a sickening and disturbing display of brass necked hypocrisy, the PLP gave this man a standing ovation in the HoC. Well, Corbyn has won in his own party, and Labour are no longer a respectable party of the moderate, centre left, patriotism or not.

    The moderates will deeply regret what they have legitimised.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,764
    Brom said:

    isam said:

    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    I do think people who call themselves "citizens of the world" are a bit twattish to be honest.
    Just slightly!
    Usually found on twitter or on a gap year
    Not so. It might not have penetrated some families, but many families stretch over different countries and national loyalties. Since family usually comes first, it's just not that simple anymore.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,405
    edited June 2017
    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    I do think people who call themselves "citizens of the world" are a bit twattish to be honest.
    But not NEARLY as twattish as saying in a keynote party conference speech that they are citizens of nowhere as if insulting people is a grown up thing to do. And that was our prime minister.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613

    From the article
    " Jeremy Corbyn, who does not sing the national anthem and has spent 40 years consorting with apologists for terrorism and those who wish the UK harm........Corbyn is undoubtedly vulnerable (whatever he says now, the central charges are true) "

    If you concede that point (which imho is a massive concession), then I don't know that any of the bullet points outlining the Tories faults as you see them make much of a difference.

    Also on the flag I don't think Labour draping themselves in it would go down well with a lot of their supporters. Labour politicians in tanks waving Union flags would backfire badly in places like Liverpool and the university towns I would think. Would be very strange. And having Corbyn do it would be bizarre and look craven.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2017
    I severe case of Brexitis. Boring.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Eagles, an unpleasant similarity.

    However, there's a new strain of thought emerging, whereby the wealthy in various parts of the world are identifying more by their lifestyle and wealth than location, due to ease of travel and the internet.

    Loss of national identity fuelled by this at the top end and mass migration at the bottom end is a serious issue. I'm not saying May's approach was sensible, but this is something that concerns a lot of people.

    The young/old dividing line is another serious fracture in politics.

    We certainly live in turbulent times.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    edited June 2017
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Jonathan said:

    Brom said:

    isam said:

    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    I do think people who call themselves "citizens of the world" are a bit twattish to be honest.
    Just slightly!
    Usually found on twitter or on a gap year
    Not so. It might not have penetrated some families, but many families stretch over different countries and national loyalties. Since family usually comes first, it's just not that simple anymore.
    I suspect many of these would not vote Tory. Your classic Ugandan Indian immigrants who quickly integrated would wonder what the fuss was, who on earth would move here and not want to be British? It will have put some largely metropolitan remain voters noses out of joint I agree though.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.
    I'd consider them both Tory Gains.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, why?

    I do think 'citizen of the world' is a bit of a weird idea, but the 'citizen of nowhere' line probably alienated some people without actually getting any benefit with others. I don't think it was clever, but I'm curious why it irritates you so much.

    It made me think of this

    Rootless cosmopolitan was a pejorative label used during the anti-Semitic campaign in the Soviet Union after World War II.[1]

    Cosmopolitans were intellectuals who were accused of expressing pro-Western feelings and lack of patriotism. The term "rootless cosmopolitan" referred to Jewish intellectuals. It was popularized during the campaign in a Pravda article condemning a group of theatrical critics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan
    Fair enough. I definitely think it was silly of her to make the comment she did.

    Perhaps it's just envy, but there is a perception that there is a set of individuals - and businesses - who don't have a stake in the country. I say this as someone on the right, but I don't like it when it hear the argument that a group of people of businesses will leave the country if country does something that they don't like.

    Perhaps it's true, perhaps Brexit will damage the City and we'll all regret that. But I keep thinking, we really shouldn't be relying upon such people and businesses that can take flight at the first sign of trouble.

    I say this as a Thatcherite who wants people to be able to take care of themselves. But we should always remember that we will always have to some form of nation state to set the parameters within which we work.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    Yep. If you're not one of us, you're one of them. It's playground logic.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,764
    edited June 2017
    Anorak said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    Yep. If you're not one of us, you're one of them. It's playground logic.
    Bit unfair on playgrounds. Primary kids tend to be more tolerant and open than some right wing politicians.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, an unpleasant similarity.

    However, there's a new strain of thought emerging, whereby the wealthy in various parts of the world are identifying more by their lifestyle and wealth than location, due to ease of travel and the internet.

    Loss of national identity fuelled by this at the top end and mass migration at the bottom end is a serious issue. I'm not saying May's approach was sensible, but this is something that concerns a lot of people.

    The young/old dividing line is another serious fracture in politics.

    We certainly live in turbulent times.

    Is this 'new strain of thought' actually part of the way 'the wealthy' think, or a manifestation of the jealousy and jingoism of 'the poor' and 'the angry'?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,247
    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    Wasn't her point that there were some people who enjoy the protections and safety of the British state, whilst also feeling they owe it no loyalty?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    High Peak might be the worst Tory loss actually -

    Rural, in the north. Precisely the sort of seat I expected the Tories to be winning (Bassetlaw for instance)

    Utterly shocking performance from the blues there.

    Cantrerbury, Leamington & Kensington all more explainable.
  • trawltrawl Posts: 142
    On God I'd only just come down from John Major. So, what can Labour do? How about, not have an unpleasant shower of anti British, anti UK, automatically pro every enemy we've ever had or will have, ****s, running it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, why?

    I do think 'citizen of the world' is a bit of a weird idea, but the 'citizen of nowhere' line probably alienated some people without actually getting any benefit with others. I don't think it was clever, but I'm curious why it irritates you so much.

    It made me think of this

    Rootless cosmopolitan was a pejorative label used during the anti-Semitic campaign in the Soviet Union after World War II.[1]

    Cosmopolitans were intellectuals who were accused of expressing pro-Western feelings and lack of patriotism. The term "rootless cosmopolitan" referred to Jewish intellectuals. It was popularized during the campaign in a Pravda article condemning a group of theatrical critics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan
    Fair enough. I definitely think it was silly of her to make the comment she did.

    Perhaps it's just envy, but there is a perception that there is a set of individuals - and businesses - who don't have a stake in the country. I say this as someone on the right, but I don't like it when it hear the argument that a group of people of businesses will leave the country if country does something that they don't like.

    Perhaps it's true, perhaps Brexit will damage the City and we'll all regret that. But I keep thinking, we really shouldn't be relying upon such people and businesses that can take flight at the first sign of trouble.

    I say this as a Thatcherite who wants people to be able to take care of themselves. But we should always remember that we will always have to some form of nation state to set the parameters within which we work.
    It's not the first sign of trouble, it's the wilful destruction of what they were invited here/started their businesses here.

    I know someone who has a letter from Margaret Thatcher's government telling him London is the place to invest as it is the gateway to the European Single Market.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,762
    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    Wasn't her point that there were some people who enjoy the protections and safety of the British state, whilst also feeling they owe it no loyalty?
    That's how I see it, still a silly thing to say though.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    Wasn't her point that there were some people who enjoy the protections and safety of the British state, whilst also feeling they owe it no loyalty?
    Her exact words were:

    "But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Anorak, bit of a complicated subject to discuss (and I'm meant to be working and have to leave imminently). I think Mr. Royale's comment is a good contribution. If I have time later I'll try and reply more fully. [My simplest thought on the matter is that it was stupid for May to express herself the way she did because it gave her no benefit and annoyed some people].
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,247
    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    In fact, I'd argue some Labour MPs in the late 1930s and early 1940s were more actively patriotic than even some Conservatives.

    But, this sadly isn't the case with such figures as Corbyn and McDonnell.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,854
    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    DanSmith said:

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/874659115733307394

    If that gets proven is that curtains for her (after commitments she made to 1922 yesterday) ?

    Remember Osborne said it would be Wednesday when it all "collapses" for her...

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Anorak, bit of a complicated subject to discuss (and I'm meant to be working and have to leave imminently). I think Mr. Royale's comment is a good contribution. If I have time later I'll try and reply more fully. [My simplest thought on the matter is that it was stupid for May to express herself the way she did because it gave her no benefit and annoyed some people].

    Your simplest thought is pretty accurate, and sums up a great deal of the Tory's election campaign (if you replace "some" with "a lot", obviously).
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    RoyalBlue said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
    I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,787
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, why?

    I do think 'citizen of the world' is a bit of a weird idea, but the 'citizen of nowhere' line probably alienated some people without actually getting any benefit with others. I don't think it was clever, but I'm curious why it irritates you so much.

    It made me think of this

    Rootless cosmopolitan was a pejorative label used during the anti-Semitic campaign in the Soviet Union after World War II.[1]

    Cosmopolitans were intellectuals who were accused of expressing pro-Western feelings and lack of patriotism. The term "rootless cosmopolitan" referred to Jewish intellectuals. It was popularized during the campaign in a Pravda article condemning a group of theatrical critics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan
    Fair enough. I definitely think it was silly of her to make the comment she did.

    Perhaps it's just envy, but there is a perception that there is a set of individuals - and businesses - who don't have a stake in the country. I say this as someone on the right, but I don't like it when it hear the argument that a group of people of businesses will leave the country if country does something that they don't like.

    Perhaps it's true, perhaps Brexit will damage the City and we'll all regret that. But I keep thinking, we really shouldn't be relying upon such people and businesses that can take flight at the first sign of trouble.

    I say this as a Thatcherite who wants people to be able to take care of themselves. But we should always remember that we will always have to some form of nation state to set the parameters within which we work.
    It's not the first sign of trouble, it's the wilful destruction of what they were invited here/started their businesses here.

    I know someone who has a letter from Margaret Thatcher's government telling him London is the place to invest as it is the gateway to the European Single Market.
    I don't think the Single Market is the problem its the EU's tendency towards an unelected Single Government that is the issue...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, why?

    I do think 'citizen of the world' is a bit of a weird idea, but the 'citizen of nowhere' line probably alienated some people without actually getting any benefit with others. I don't think it was clever, but I'm curious why it irritates you so much.

    It made me think of this

    Rootless cosmopolitan was a pejorative label used during the anti-Semitic campaign in the Soviet Union after World War II.[1]

    Cosmopolitans were intellectuals who were accused of expressing pro-Western feelings and lack of patriotism. The term "rootless cosmopolitan" referred to Jewish intellectuals. It was popularized during the campaign in a Pravda article condemning a group of theatrical critics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan
    Fair enough. I definitely think it was silly of her to make the comment she did.

    Perhaps it's just envy, but there is a perception that there is a set of individuals - and businesses - who don't have a stake in the country. I say this as someone on the right, but I don't like it when it hear the argument that a group of people of businesses will leave the country if country does something that they don't like.

    Perhaps it's true, perhaps Brexit will damage the City and we'll all regret that. But I keep thinking, we really shouldn't be relying upon such people and businesses that can take flight at the first sign of trouble.

    I say this as a Thatcherite who wants people to be able to take care of themselves. But we should always remember that we will always have to some form of nation state to set the parameters within which we work.
    Funnily enough if you google 'citizens of nowhere', one of the first things that appears is this essay by Rahul Rao, that makes exactly the same point as TSE, including the 'rootless cosmopolitan' phrase

    https://thedisorderofthings.com/2016/11/28/citizens-of-nowhere/

    Great minds think alike!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,247
    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    I don't know. But they certainly see it very differently to how I do.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    What a numpty

    https://twitter.com/torcuil/status/874665592598474752
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Well said. The Tories never act in the national interest. It's always party first and the country can go to hell.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Eagles, why?

    I do think 'citizen of the world' is a bit of a weird idea, but the 'citizen of nowhere' line probably alienated some people without actually getting any benefit with others. I don't think it was clever, but I'm curious why it irritates you so much.

    It made me think of this

    Rootless cosmopolitan was a pejorative label used during the anti-Semitic campaign in the Soviet Union after World War II.[1]

    Cosmopolitans were intellectuals who were accused of expressing pro-Western feelings and lack of patriotism. The term "rootless cosmopolitan" referred to Jewish intellectuals. It was popularized during the campaign in a Pravda article condemning a group of theatrical critics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan
    Fair enough. I definitely think it was silly of her to make the comment she did.

    Perhaps it's just envy, but there is a perception that there is a set of individuals - and businesses - who don't have a stake in the country. I say this as someone on the right, but I don't like it when it hear the argument that a group of people of businesses will leave the country if country does something that they don't like.

    Perhaps it's true, perhaps Brexit will damage the City and we'll all regret that. But I keep thinking, we really shouldn't be relying upon such people and businesses that can take flight at the first sign of trouble.

    I say this as a Thatcherite who wants people to be able to take care of themselves. But we should always remember that we will always have to some form of nation state to set the parameters within which we work.
    It's not the first sign of trouble, it's the wilful destruction of what they were invited here/started their businesses here.

    I know someone who has a letter from Margaret Thatcher's government telling him London is the place to invest as it is the gateway to the European Single Market.
    Not wanting repeat what's been done to death on here, but a lot of the trouble can be traced back to May 2004 when the EU expanded. I can remember going to Jersey (admittedly not in the EU, but it's still relevant) for our summer holidays in 1990 and 1991 and all of the staff at the hotel we'd stay in were from Portugal. Migrant labour has always been a part of life, but what was started in 2004 was on a totally different scale.

    Personally, I think if we wanted expansion to work we needed to encourage the formation of a United States of Europe with the federal transfer of (a lot of) money from the rich to the poor with a view to levelling the living standards from Chelsea to Craiova. Alternatively, we should have vetoed the expansion.

    What we've had for 13 years is neither one thing nor the other.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    not_on_fire said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
    I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
    It's a damn shame that he wasn't kicked out this time around.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Chris_A said:

    Well said. The Tories never act in the national interest. It's always party first and the country can go to hell.

    Hello Mr. Travel Junkie!
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2017
    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    It's odd. Following her own logic through, most of her own MP's are citizens of nowhere flitting between seats until they get elected.

    I worked for a while in Stoke on the fringes of the construction trade. Quite a few men in their 40's & 50's who had never been to london.

    NEVER BEEN TO LONDON.

    I was exotic because I came from a different part of the midlands.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    Scott_P said:

    What a numpty

    https://twitter.com/torcuil/status/874665592598474752

    Tommy who?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pong said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    It's odd. Following her own logic through, most of her own MP's are citizens of nowhere flitting between seats until they get elected.

    I worked for a while in Stoke on the fringes of the construction trade. Quite a few men in their 40's & 50's who had never been to london.

    NEVER BEEN TO LONDON.

    I was exotic because I came from a different part of the midlands.
    In my youth I briefly dated a young man who worked in Hammersmith. He'd been in London for two years and never seen Nelson's Column*.


    *You can all insert your own joke here.
  • SandraMSandraM Posts: 206
    edited June 2017
    I used to live in a Hampshire village. Some friends who moved there in the 60s said they often met people then who had never been out of the village in their lives. My friends said when they first moved there they found several shopkeepers refused to serve them as they weren't "local".
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited June 2017
    Casino_Royale said:

    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    I don't know. But they certainly see it very differently to how I do.
    It rather depends on whether you think it can be patriotic to wish to see one's own country become a component part of another. I think it can be (Duke of Hamilton in Scotland of 1707 etc), but it is not patriotic to dissemble about that being the end point of integration, as so many British Europhiles (but certainly not all) have.
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    Wasn't Ted Heath at the D-Day landings and mentioned in despatches ? Not that that makes him a good PM, but...

    Denis Healey was at Anzio I think too.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Pong said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    It's odd. Following her own logic through, most of her own MP's are citizens of nowhere flitting between seats until they get elected.

    I worked for a while in Stoke on the fringes of the construction trade. Quite a few men in their 40's & 50's who had never been to london.

    NEVER BEEN TO LONDON.

    I was exotic because I came from a different part of the midlands.
    In my youth I briefly dated a young man who worked in Hammersmith. He'd been in London for two years and never seen Nelson's Column*.


    *You can all insert your own joke here.
    Not unusual. I only visited the British Museum for the first time a couple of weeks ago despite having lived near to London all my life.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    Yes. And I would add you to the list as well.

    You have freely admitted you wish to see the end of the UK with it being subsumed into a federal state.

    Ken Clarke in his infamous interview said he looked forward to a day when Parliament was nothing more than a council chamber in Europe. Now whilst it is a perfectly right and proper to hold such views and to campaign for them, they are incompatible with the concept of patriotism and with the belief in national self determination and national sovereignty.

    The big BUT of course is that there is nothing in principle wrong with that. You and I share different views of the value of the nation state and of its place in the maintenance of democratic freedoms. Whilst I think you are wrong that does not mean I think you are evil or even mildly naughty. Just that when it comes to the specific concept of patriotism one cannot be a patriot and still believe in the end of the nation state.

    Please realise I am in no way critical of you for this. You are continually open about your pro federalist views and that is just as justified a world view as that of Westphalian Sovereignty. It is just not a view I share.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Much is being (rightly) made of TM's appalling strategy and presentation as major contributors to the GE mess but (and I think it should have been foreseen) Corbyn's performance was an at least equal factor in determining the outcome. Labour was hugely successful at identifying their best liars, and at putting only them in front of the electorate, and Corbyn was definitely the best of the bunch. The unconvincing were swiftly put into purdah; even Diane Abbott was hooked just in time but not before she'd done Labour's costings.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,762
    PaulM said:

    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    Wasn't Ted Heath at the D-Day landings and mentioned in despatches ? Not that that makes him a good PM, but...

    Denis Healey was at Anzio I think too.
    Well quite. Men who risked their lives in battle are deemed less patriotic than blue-passport obsessives.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    not_on_fire said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
    I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
    Chingford & Woodford Green

    Conservative hold

    LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638

    CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076

    LD Deborah Unger 2043

    GRN Sinead King 1204


    IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Collective government:

    https://twitter.com/steveballinger/status/874545895290941440
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,142
    619 said:

    not_on_fire said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
    I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
    Chingford & Woodford Green

    Conservative hold

    LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638

    CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076

    LD Deborah Unger 2043

    GRN Sinead King 1204


    IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
    Welcome back :o
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    AlastairMeeks said:

    In my youth I briefly dated a young man who worked in Hammersmith. He'd been in London for two years and never seen Nelson's Column*.


    *You can all insert your own joke here.

    We'll turn a blind eye to your youthful indiscretions ....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Collective government:

    As predicted by the Evening Standard. I wonder how they knew?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    Stark_Dawning said:

    PaulM said:

    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    Wasn't Ted Heath at the D-Day landings and mentioned in despatches ? Not that that makes him a good PM, but...

    Denis Healey was at Anzio I think too.
    Well quite. Men who risked their lives in battle are deemed less patriotic than blue-passport obsessives.
    For a more extreme example Petain was a WW1 hero to the French. I am not sure they considered him a patriot by the middle of WW2.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    PaulM said:

    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    Wasn't Ted Heath at the D-Day landings and mentioned in despatches ? Not that that makes him a good PM, but...

    Denis Healey was at Anzio I think too.
    yup, 'beach master' so pretty much in charge of the british landing force.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/peston/status/874663628913463296
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Collective government:

    As predicted by the Evening Standard. I wonder how they knew?
    There's a fine line between reporting the news and making the news.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,405
    edited June 2017
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    Yes. And I would add you to the list as well.

    You have freely admitted you wish to see the end of the with it being subsumed into a federal state.

    Ken Clarke in his infamous interview said he looked forward to a day when Parliament was nothing more than a council chamber in Europe. Now whilst it is a perfectly right and proper to hold such views and to campaign for them, they are incompatible with the concept of patriotism and with the belief in national self determination and national sovereignty.

    The big BUT of course is that there is nothing in principle wrong with that. You and I share different views of the value of the nation state and of its place in the maintenance of democratic freedoms. Whilst I think you are wrong that does not mean I think you are evil or even mildly naughty. Just that when it comes to the specific concept of patriotism one cannot be a patriot and still believe in the end of the nation state.

    Please realise I am in no way critical of you for this. You are continually open about your pro federalist views and that is just as justified a world view as that of Westphalian Sovereignty. It is just not a view I share.
    Um. I think you said this morning that you campaigned to effectively " see the end of the UK ".
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,762
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    Yes. And I would add you to the list as well.

    You have freely admitted you wish to see the end of the UK with it being subsumed into a federal state.

    Ken Clarke in his infamous interview said he looked forward to a day when Parliament was nothing more than a council chamber in Europe. Now whilst it is a perfectly right and proper to hold such views and to campaign for them, they are incompatible with the concept of patriotism and with the belief in national self determination and national sovereignty.

    The big BUT of course is that there is nothing in principle wrong with that. You and I share different views of the value of the nation state and of its place in the maintenance of democratic freedoms. Whilst I think you are wrong that does not mean I think you are evil or even mildly naughty. Just that when it comes to the specific concept of patriotism one cannot be a patriot and still believe in the end of the nation state.

    Please realise I am in no way critical of you for this. You are continually open about your pro federalist views and that is just as justified a world view as that of Westphalian Sovereignty. It is just not a view I share.
    Have you got a link to Clarke's quotation about the 'council chamber'? Not saying you're wrong, but Ken himself always insisted Norman Lamont made it up.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    619 said:

    not_on_fire said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
    I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
    Chingford & Woodford Green

    Conservative hold

    LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638

    CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076

    LD Deborah Unger 2043

    GRN Sinead King 1204


    IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
    Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    AlastairMeeks said:

    "Citizens of nowhere" rankles hugely. I could never vote for a Conservative party led by someone who revels in such malice.

    It's not malice. It's education. For true Conservatives citizen means much more than just inhabitant.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    https://twitter.com/MichaelLCrick/status/874675240504365056
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited June 2017
    A fine header and photo. Reminds me of The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie. One of those titles that tells the story. What an unpleasant old charlatan Boris Johnson is.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    FF43 said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    williamglenn said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    On topic, the patriotism of Labour figures like Clement Attlee, Hugh Gaitskell, Roy Hattersley and, yes, Joff Wild were and are absolutely beyond question.

    Serious question: Do you think the patriotism of Conservative figures like Ted Heath, Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine is questionable?
    Yes. And I would add you to the list as well.

    You have freely admitted you wish to see the end of the with it being subsumed into a federal state.

    Ken Clarke in his infamous interview said he looked forward to a day when Parliament was nothing more than a council chamber in Europe. Now whilst it is a perfectly right and proper to hold such views and to campaign for them, they are incompatible with the concept of patriotism and with the belief in national self determination and national sovereignty.

    The big BUT of course is that there is nothing in principle wrong with that. You and I share different views of the value of the nation state and of its place in the maintenance of democratic freedoms. Whilst I think you are wrong that does not mean I think you are evil or even mildly naughty. Just that when it comes to the specific concept of patriotism one cannot be a patriot and still believe in the end of the nation state.

    Please realise I am in no way critical of you for this. You are continually open about your pro federalist views and that is just as justified a world view as that of Westphalian Sovereignty. It is just not a view I share.
    Um. I think you said this morning that you campaigned to effectively " see the end of the UK ".
    Quite right. But then I would never consider myself a patriot either. In case you missed it I was going out of my way not to criticise William. This is in my view an intellectual debate not a slanging match. My loyalty lies first and foremost to what I consider to be my country which is England. But even there it is only because I think it is the best reflection of democratic freedom, the best structure within which to allow as much freedom as possible. It is the same reason that as an Englishman I support Scots Independence as I believe it allows more democratic accountability than the current situation.

    As I have said many times before what I don't understand are those who preach UK Independence from the EU but don't want to allow Scots Independence from the UK.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    RobD said:

    619 said:

    not_on_fire said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
    I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
    Chingford & Woodford Green

    Conservative hold

    LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638

    CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076

    LD Deborah Unger 2043

    GRN Sinead King 1204


    IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
    Welcome back :o
    Thanks. Im over the shit show which was the US election now.

    Last Thurs cheered me up immensely!
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    AndyJS said:

    619 said:

    not_on_fire said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
    I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
    Chingford & Woodford Green

    Conservative hold

    LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638

    CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076

    LD Deborah Unger 2043

    GRN Sinead King 1204


    IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
    Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
    Yeah, i think its unlilely, but he is definitelty vulnerable if there is another election soonish
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    AndyJS said:

    619 said:

    not_on_fire said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The citizens of nowhere line still really pisses me off.

    Yes. That one did a lot of damage.
    It was line to push buttons of the Metropolitan Liberal Elite, no wonder the Tories lost Kensington on her watch.
    Chingford & Woodford Green the next domino to topple for Labour in London. Meanwhile Penistone and Stocksbridge will drift Tory all else being equal.

    All else isn't equal right now though, and if there was an election tommorow I'd expect Labour to win both easily.
    That would be a symbolically bitter blow for many Tories. Nothing to do with IDS, of course, but because it was Norman's old stopping ground.
    Not to forget Churchill!
    I can see Momentum making a big push to oust IDS in the next election. He's a hate figure amongst them.
    Chingford & Woodford Green

    Conservative hold

    LAB Bilal Mahmood 20638

    CON Iain Duncan Smith 23076

    LD Deborah Unger 2043

    GRN Sinead King 1204


    IDS had a 9000 lead cut by 2/3rds
    Although his share of the vote was up slightly to 49%.
    Labour will squeeze the living crap out of the Green and Liberal vote next time and take the seat. The Tories will probably never get it back because of demographic change. It's a nice middle class seat that is still – just – affordable (in London terms) right on the edge of Epping Forest, which is a beautiful place. Very attractive to metropolitans with young families.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    If Brexit is abandoned (via a second referendum) or we end up with a a really "soft" Brexit it would insuilate us against the potential excesses of Corbyn and McDonnell. They legally couldn't go too far.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    Given Corbyn's record of support for Sinn Fein, opposition to the monarchy, lack of support for the army etc he will find it difficult to play the patriotism card. While his support for Brexit, including leaving the single market, hardly enables him to effectively counter a hard Brexit, indeed moderate Tories already seem to be moving more in that direction than he is. Finally the fact May is now said to be preparing to ease off on austerity, a position also backed by the DUP, gives him little headway on that front either
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/874676821962493952
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    I also think the Corbyn attacks wont work. The public heard the attack lines, saw that they bore no relation to the charming man who was campaigning, and made up their own mind.

    May underestimated Corbyn. PB Tories are doing the same now
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Pong, I'm not that old, or from Stoke, but I've never been to London.

    I have been to Beijing and Shanghai, though :p

    Mr. Stoke, let's stay in the EU, it'll stop our democracy working properly, isn't the best sales line.

    Mr. Anorak, I have returned, but I'm a bit tired [still have more work to do] and it's a nuanced area so I'm just going to leave it.
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