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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tories take a stonking 21% lead with ComRes poll, up 4% in mon

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  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,482
    surbiton said:

    DeClare said:

    When Cameron went to the EU early last year and asked for a few puny concessions that didn't nearly go far enough anyway and he was more or less told to F-Off I personally felt humiliated and angry...

    That highlights perfectly Cameron's huge presentational failing in the run-up to the referendum. He thought the charade of pretending to renegotiate would get people on his side but instead he just insulted their intelligence.

    Sadly I believe the humiliation and anger will be magnified many times over when the EU is similarly unmoved by our demands for an exit deal all on our terms so we can continue to buy their BMWs and prosecco...
    They will wake up when they find that the EU is not budging on the single market. Our Leave liars kept on telling their electorate that with the trade deficit and what not the EU will have no choice but give us non tariff entry.

    Bollocks, they will. How many BMW cars will not be sold here even with a 10% tariff. I will still buy it.
    Good for you. Others in the same hypothetical situation might prefer a 10% more specced up Jag.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,314
    Mortimer said:

    AndyJS said:

    Looks like the Tories might be favourites to win the mayoralty in the West Midlands. Burnham should be okay in Greater Manchester though.

    As SO and I have been saying for months, Labour will not win in the West Midlands with the current Labour leadership. Many voters will not forgive the past of Corbo and McMao.
    I'm more baffled by the fact that Sion Simon was the answer to any question other than, 'who is the candidate most likely to lose the mayoralty for us?'

    TBH I don't think the West Midlands will tell us much either way for that reason, and Corbyn could with some justification pass it off as the electorate rejecting a failed New Labour muppet with no ideas and no will to help ordinary people. Even though Corbyn's unpopularity may exaggerate the scale of the defeat, he will not be the sole reason for it (conversely, however, if by some fluke Simon wins Corbyn should not assume that's an endorsement of his new politics).

    Manchester on the other hand...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983
    :o

    That is all.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Floater said:

    GeoffM said:

    SeanT said:
    You could make a case that the real turning point that led to Brexit was that debate he did with Farage in 2014 in which his approach was found wanting. That should have been a wake up call that mealy-mouthed platitudes wouldn't cut it and the pro-Europeans needed some passion and conviction.
    That might have been a strong clue but it really just revealed a reality that went back years. Yes, pro-Europeans should have been making a more positive case but I doubt that even that would have worked.

    If you want a date for when the Brexit process began, I give you 8 September 1988.
    And I give you 1 January 1973
    Leaving was inevitable. It was just the timing.
    No, I don't think it was inevitable. There was no inevitability about Delors embarking on either the social programme or the single currency. Sure, the single currency had long been a project the EEC (initially) was keen on - it was a stated objective before Britain joined - but it had been kicked into the long grass for while over a decade before Delors resurrected it. It's also true that Mitterrand and Kohl were keen on the Euro due to what they perceived as the consequences of the end of the Cold War and of German reunification. But again, would it have happened without Delors' guiding hand (and Delors was the exception - no other EU Commission president has gained such power)?

    Had the EC decided that the Single Market was the limit of its realistic ambitions, whatever the treaties might say, then Britain would still be a member. And given that it took 40 years just to complete most of the Single Market - a process that still isn't complete in some sectors - that's far from unrealistic.
    We don't have an alternative history to judge but I think that if there had been no Eurozone at the time of the 2008 crisis, the idea would have been resurrected at that point as a way of shielding the likes of Greece from being attacked by currency speculators.
    Here was I thinking Greece needed to devalue......
    Devaluation is no answer . The UK has been devaluing the £ for 70 years without success .
    1.1.1953 £1 = DEM 11.70

    15.4.2017 £1= DEM 2.3074 [ € 1.179 ]

    Devaluation is just a drug ! A short term fix. The problem with this country is productivity. WE produce 20% less per day than the Germans and the French.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    43 dead in Syria today. But no posts here on PB. The "wrong" people died. And Jabhat-Al-Nusra are now our allies !

    50 people die in Syria every day, don't they? Every one a horror, every one a sadness. But it's a civil war. They are notoriously nasty. What should we do? Bomb them like Trump?

    I say: Leave Well Alone, and maybe hope Assad wins. As the least worst of several deeply evil options.
    President Assad is actually the only secular leader left.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    DeClare said:

    When Cameron went to the EU early last year and asked for a few puny concessions that didn't nearly go far enough anyway and he was more or less told to F-Off I personally felt humiliated and angry...

    That highlights perfectly Cameron's huge presentational failing in the run-up to the referendum. He thought the charade of pretending to renegotiate would get people on his side but instead he just insulted their intelligence.

    Sadly I believe the humiliation and anger will be magnified many times over when the EU is similarly unmoved by our demands for an exit deal all on our terms so we can continue to buy their BMWs and prosecco...
    They will wake up when they find that the EU is not budging on the single market. Our Leave liars kept on telling their electorate that with the trade deficit and what not the EU will have no choice but give us non tariff entry.

    Bollocks, they will. How many BMW cars will not be sold here even with a 10% tariff. I will still buy it.
    Good for you. Others in the same hypothetical situation might prefer a 10% more specced up Jag.
    What a joke !
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,314
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    43 dead in Syria today. But no posts here on PB. The "wrong" people died. And Jabhat-Al-Nusra are now our allies !

    50 people die in Syria every day, don't they? Every one a horror, every one a sadness. But it's a civil war. They are notoriously nasty. What should we do? Bomb them like Trump?

    I say: Leave Well Alone, and maybe hope Assad wins. As the least worst of several deeply evil options.
    President Assad is actually the only secular leader left.
    That's not the only criteria for good leadership. Stalin was fully secular and frequently very anti-religious, but I wouldn't hold him up as a model of good governance.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    GeoffM said:

    SeanT said:

    What a cocksucker Clegg is. Leader of the party which proudly promised an in/out referendum it knew it would never have to deliver, because they would never win. Then, when just such a referendum was offered, it was suddenly a loathsome error and morally wrong?

    He is the most odious hypocrite. He should leave politics in shame.
    You could make a case that the real turning point that led to Brexit was that debate he did with Farage in 2014 in which his approach was found wanting. That should have been a wake up call that mealy-mouthed platitudes wouldn't cut it and the pro-Europeans needed some passion and conviction.
    That might have been a strong clue but it really just revealed a reality that went back years. Yes, pro-Europeans should have been making a more positive case but I doubt that even that would have worked.

    If you want a date for when the Brexit process began, I give you 8 September 1988.
    And I give you 1 January 1973
    Leaving was inevitable. It was just the timing.
    No, I don't think it was inevitable. There was no inevitability about Delors embarking on either the social programme or the single currency. Sure, the single currency had long been a project (snip). But again, would it have happened without Delors' guiding hand (and Delors was the exception - no other EU Commission president has gained such power)?

    years just to complete most of the Single Market - a process that still isn't complete in some sectors - that's far from unrealistic.
    We don't have an alternative history to judge but I think that if there had been no Eurozone at the time of the 2008 crisis, the idea would have been resurrected at that point as a way of shielding the likes of Greece from being attacked by currency speculators.
    Here was I thinking Greece needed to devalue......
    Devaluation is no answer . The UK has been devaluing the £ for 70 years without success .
    Sorry Mark, you are the last person I would listen to on Economics.

    Hell, you missed the mother of all recessions if I recall.

    Greece needed to devalue, they can't.

    Then they were sacrificed to save German banks.

    That's your EU in a nutshell.
    That is your EU in the nutshell that is your head
    Straight to the abuse.

    Well, you had nothing else did you ;-)
  • Options
    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    How far out were opinium at the last GE?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,014
    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    43 dead in Syria today. But no posts here on PB. The "wrong" people died. And Jabhat-Al-Nusra are now our allies !

    50 people die in Syria every day, don't they? Every one a horror, every one a sadness. But it's a civil war. They are notoriously nasty. What should we do? Bomb them like Trump?

    I say: Leave Well Alone, and maybe hope Assad wins. As the least worst of several deeply evil options.
    It’s 1984 isn’t it. Yesterday Eastasia were the enemy. Now they are our allies. Tomorrow they will be our enemies again!
    Or something like that.

    IIRC both sides in the Spanish Civil War were equally nasty, but people in UK regarded one side as good and the other as the devil incarnate. Or the other way round depending on whether one was essentially Left or Right.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,091

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn
    I've never thought of Donald Tusk as Rhett Butler but it takes all sorts...
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,014

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,856
    edited April 2017

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,856

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    How far out were opinium at the last GE?

    Opinium's final poll gave the Tories a 1% lead - as did Comres! Both had findings of Con 35 Lab 34.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,091
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    lol. Bye.

    TEN BILLION A YEAR.
    £10bn is 0.1% of our GDP. The hit we will take each year will be more than that for quite a few years.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,014
    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    Indeed. It was one of the reasons we shouldn’t have left. More problems on the horizon.

    And yes, I know ‘the people voted”.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    We haven't actually left yet :)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,856

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    "Love Europe, Fuck the EU" :)
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Floater said:

    GeoffM said:

    SeanT said:
    You could make a case that the real turning point that led to Brexit was that debate he did with Farage in 2014 in which his approach was found wanting. That should have been a wake up call that mealy-mouthed platitudes wouldn't cut it and the pro-Europeans needed some passion and conviction.
    That might have been a strong clue but it really just revealed a reality that went back years. Yes, pro-Europeans should have been making a more positive case but I doubt that even that would have worked.

    If you want a date for when the Brexit process began, I give you 8 September 1988.
    And I give you 1 January 1973
    Leaving was inevitable. It was just the timing.
    No, I

    Had the EC decided that the Single Market was the limit of its realistic ambitions, whatever the treaties might say, then Britain would still be a member. And given that it took 40 years just to complete most of the Single Market - a process that still isn't complete in some sectors - that's far from unrealistic.
    We don't have an alternative history to judge but I think that if there had been no Eurozone at the time of the 2008 crisis, the idea would have been resurrected at that point as a way of shielding the likes of Greece from being attacked by currency speculators.
    Here was I thinking Greece needed to devalue......
    Devaluation is no answer . The UK has been devaluing the £ for 70 years without success .
    1.1.1953 £1 = DEM 11.70

    15.4.2017 £1= DEM 2.3074 [ € 1.179 ]

    Devaluation is just a drug ! A short term fix. The problem with this country is productivity. WE produce 20% less per day than the Germans and the French.
    Also delusional. GDP per capita in the UK by PPP is higher than France, Italy and Japan - though less than Germany. With Germany's horrible demographics, probably not solved by importing 1m barely educated Syrians, there's a good chance we will soon overtake Germany and become the richest large country, per head, in Europe.

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-per-capita-ppp
    Sean, at this time of the evening you are normally slightly worse for wear, but those are 2015 statistics.

    Remember, your favourite sterling fell by 17% after June 2016.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    "Love Europe, Fuck the EU" :)
    Even their railways are better than ours. Ours are better than North Korea's.

    On CNN, I saw even Turkey has these super fast railways now.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,091
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    The humiliation will be entirely self-inflicted.

    It was May's decision to press on with a hard Brexit despite two of the four nations of the UK voting to Remain in the EU. Just think how we would perceive a similar situation if we were talking about another multinational state on the other side of Europe? The political logic from all sides, not least the true Brexit believers, can only lead to the break-up of the UK.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,856
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    Worth noting that plenty here would be happy to go with softer brexit terms, are willing to accomodate the EU, but there is the weird glee from some that the EU humiliating Britain, rather than merely sticking to a hard line, is Britain's fault. Facing some negative consequences is Britain's fault, but the EU seeking humiliation reflects on them, not us, just as us seeking to harm them would reflect on us.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    Do EU employment laws allow them to sack all their UK staff?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,014
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    We can leave tomorrow. We just LEAVE. As even europhiles admit, we have been sovereign all along.

    We repeal the EEC act of 1973. We're out. We default to WTO. Salutary chaos ensues. Fuck it.
    Did you have a row with your latest girl-friend last night. Has she left you with a spare bottle of ‘sauce’?
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    Worth noting that plenty here would be happy to go with softer brexit terms, are willing to accomodate the EU, but there is the weird glee from some that the EU humiliating Britain, rather than merely sticking to a hard line, is Britain's fault. Facing some negative consequences is Britain's fault, but the EU seeking humiliation reflects on them, not us, just as us seeking to harm them would reflect on us.
    Isn't it more pour encourager les autres.

    I think the EU view is that the post Brexit deal has to be worse than full membership.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,856

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    The humiliation will be entirely self-inflicted.

    It was May's decision to press on with a hard Brexit despite two of the four nations of the UK voting to Remain in the EU. Just think how we would perceive a similar situation if we were talking about another multinational state on the other side of Europe? The political logic from all sides, not least the true Brexit believers, can only lead to the break-up of the UK.
    You are insane. The EU is seeking to humiliate according to that write up, which means going above and beyond what they need to do to stick up for its members and in fact seeking to be punitive and vindictive, and you blame that on the UK too. The EU has a duty to stick up for its members, it does not have a duty to humiliate or punish, but the motivation appears to be the latter not the former.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983
    AnneJGP said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    Do EU employment laws allow them to sack all their UK staff?
    As the new offices are probably going to be quite far away I believe the workers will be entitled to redundancy pay. Small comfort for those losing their jobs though!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    A statement of the bleeding obvious. We voted to cut ties with our neighbours, It would be absurd to expect european institutions to be based here post Brexit.

    Leavers weren't so delusional as to expect them to stay, surely?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like


    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    Nah. We won't allow indyref to 2021. By then we'll be out, and, hopefully, actually at war with the Frogs, Dagos and Krauts. Fuck these arrogrant eurotwats.

    If they really want to take us on, let them do it. Ourselves alone. We've done it before. They are making a mistake. Grrrr.
    "We Ourselves"

    Is Sinn Fein Gaelic for collective pissing of pants?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    The humiliation will be entirely self-inflicted.

    It was May's decision to press on with a hard Brexit despite two of the four nations of the UK voting to Remain in the EU. Just think how we would perceive a similar situation if we were talking about another multinational state on the other side of Europe? The political logic from all sides, not least the true Brexit believers, can only lead to the break-up of the UK.
    You are insane. The EU is seeking to humiliate according to that write up, which means going above and beyond what they need to do to stick up for its members and in fact seeking to be punitive and vindictive, and you blame that on the UK too. The EU has a duty to stick up for its members, it does not have a duty to humiliate or punish, but the motivation appears to be the latter not the former.
    You've only just realised? :smiley:
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,856
    edited April 2017

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    Worts.
    Isn't it more pour encourager les autres.

    I think the EU view is that the post Brexit deal has to be worse than full membership.
    There is a difference between that, which is reasonable, and seeking to humiliate, which we are told this will be, despite all the assurances the EU is a noble organisation.

    One means we will incur negative consequences, which was inevitable (the question was whether we are able to seize the positive opportunities that will arise to mitigate those), the other means they will seek to inflict negative consequences for no reason other than to inflict them. That's what seeking to humiliate entails. Doesn't sound very noble to me.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like



    he process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    We can leave tomorrow. We just LEAVE. As even europhiles admit, we have been sovereign all along.

    We repeal the EEC act of 1973. We're out. We default to WTO. Salutary chaos ensues. Fuck it.
    Did you have a row with your latest girl-friend last night. Has she left you with a spare bottle of ‘sauce’?
    At least Sean has a girlfriend! :lol:
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,091
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    The humiliation will be entirely self-inflicted.

    It was May's decision to press on with a hard Brexit despite two of the four nations of the UK voting to Remain in the EU. Just think how we would perceive a similar situation if we were talking about another multinational state on the other side of Europe? The political logic from all sides, not least the true Brexit believers, can only lead to the break-up of the UK.
    You are insane. The EU is seeking to humiliate according to that write up, which means going above and beyond what they need to do to stick up for its members and in fact seeking to be punitive and vindictive, and you blame that on the UK too. The EU has a duty to stick up for its members, it does not have a duty to humiliate or punish, but the motivation appears to be the latter not the former.
    You've only just realised? :smiley:
    That I'm insane? :)
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    AnneJGP said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    Do EU employment laws allow them to sack all their UK staff?
    UK law would be sovereign in this case, no? - employment law is surely based on country in which business is transacted...
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    The Guardian? Aw, bless.

    At least Brexit has helped them get over austerity.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    The humiliation will be entirely self-inflicted.

    It was May's decision to press on with a hard Brexit despite two of the four nations of the UK voting to Remain in the EU. Just think how we would perceive a similar situation if we were talking about another multinational state on the other side of Europe? The political logic from all sides, not least the true Brexit believers, can only lead to the break-up of the UK.

    You are fantastically good at predicting disaster for the country, the government, the Union etc etc. OTOH you presumably foresaw with absolute clarity a decisive Remain victory in the referendum, since nothing else can explain your apathy and can'tbearsedness about campaigning for that result in any productive manner. Perhaps try learning from your mistakes?

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    The humiliation will be entirely self-inflicted.

    It was May's decision to press on with a hard Brexit despite two of the four nations of the UK voting to Remain in the EU. Just think how we would perceive a similar situation if we were talking about another multinational state on the other side of Europe? The political logic from all sides, not least the true Brexit believers, can only lead to the break-up of the UK.
    You are insane. The EU is seeking to humiliate according to that write up, which means going above and beyond what they need to do to stick up for its members and in fact seeking to be punitive and vindictive, and you blame that on the UK too. The EU has a duty to stick up for its members, it does not have a duty to humiliate or punish, but the motivation appears to be the latter not the former.
    You've only just realised? :smiley:
    That I'm insane? :)
    In your desire to see the UK crushed by the EU? Yeah :p
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,190

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    43 dead in Syria today. But no posts here on PB. The "wrong" people died. And Jabhat-Al-Nusra are now our allies !

    50 people die in Syria every day, don't they? Every one a horror, every one a sadness. But it's a civil war. They are notoriously nasty. What should we do? Bomb them like Trump?

    I say: Leave Well Alone, and maybe hope Assad wins. As the least worst of several deeply evil options.
    It’s 1984 isn’t it. Yesterday Eastasia were the enemy. Now they are our allies. Tomorrow they will be our enemies again!
    Or something like that.

    IIRC both sides in the Spanish Civil War were equally nasty, but people in UK regarded one side as good and the other as the devil incarnate. Or the other way round depending on whether one was essentially Left or Right.
    Not sure if one could describe the protagonists as equally nasty in a war in which the Nationalists executed at least three times as many civilians as the Republicans. In any case the latter were the democratically elected government, the former Fascist rebels.

    People in the UK (unlike their government) were able to distinguish between the sides enough for over 2k to volunteer for the Republican cause, while barely dozens answered the Nationalists' call.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Every EU Authority and Agency based in the UK will obviously be repatriated back to an EU country as a result of the UK leaving. - If the Guardian article is to be believed, I find it very odd that that should be the EU’s first priority, large pinch of salt needed me thinks.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    Worth noting that plenty here would be happy to go with softer brexit terms, are willing to accomodate the EU, but there is the weird glee from some that the EU humiliating Britain, rather than merely sticking to a hard line, is Britain's fault. Facing some negative consequences is Britain's fault, but the EU seeking humiliation reflects on them, not us, just as us seeking to harm them would reflect on us.
    Isn't it more pour encourager les autres.

    I think the EU view is that the post Brexit deal has to be worse than full membership.
    There is a difference between that, which is reasonable, and seeking to humiliate, which we are told this will be, despite all the assurances the EU is a noble organisation.
    I thought we held all the cards ! Have they slipped out of our fingers and revealed what they really are ?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    AnneJGP said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    Do EU employment laws allow them to sack all their UK staff?
    UK law would be sovereign in this case, no? - employment law is surely based on country in which business is transacted...
    I suspect that they will be given the option of moving to the new site or redundancy.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    A statement of the bleeding obvious. We voted to cut ties with our neighbours, It would be absurd to expect european institutions to be based here post Brexit.

    Leavers weren't so delusional as to expect them to stay, surely?
    No. Of course they were going to leave. But we expect 20% of EU assets, for which we have paid. Let them work THAT out.
    Sean, you can petition the ECJ .
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,190
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    We can leave tomorrow. We just LEAVE. As even europhiles admit, we have been sovereign all along.

    We repeal the EEC act of 1973. We're out. We default to WTO. Salutary chaos ensues. Fuck it.
    So it's 'hard as fuck' Brexit tonight, is it? Hard to keep up.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2017

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    Are you still peddling this tripe?

    13% of the EU has just walked away - 16% of GDP. A net contributor.

    Not 8% and a net recipient.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    "Love Europe, Fuck the EU" :)
    Even their railways are better than ours. Ours are better than North Korea's.

    On CNN, I saw even Turkey has these super fast railways now.
    But Turkey's run by quasi-Islamists.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited April 2017
    Mortimer said:

    AnneJGP said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    Do EU employment laws allow them to sack all their UK staff?
    UK law would be sovereign in this case, no? - employment law is surely based on country in which business is transacted...
    The EU will pay whatever they have to pay and more. In the UK, it is a maximum of 24 weeks pay if you work that many years, I believe, unless they have something else in their contracts.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    A statement of the bleeding obvious. We voted to cut ties with our neighbours, It would be absurd to expect european institutions to be based here post Brexit.

    Leavers weren't so delusional as to expect them to stay, surely?
    No. Of course they were going to leave. But we expect 20% of EU assets, for which we have paid. Let them work THAT out.
    That is a seperate negotiation on assets and liabilities, but it was always inevitable that these institutions would be moving. It makes sense for that process to start immediately in order to have minimum disruption to their functions.

    It is not deliberate humiliation. Brexit is punishment enough, as the wise fellow said.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    "Love Europe, Fuck the EU" :)
    Even their railways are better than ours. Ours are better than North Korea's.

    On CNN, I saw even Turkey has these super fast railways now.
    But Turkey's run by quasi-Islamists.
    They are still high-speed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara–Istanbul_high-speed_railway
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like



    he process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    We can leave tomorrow. We just LEAVE. As even europhiles admit, we have been sovereign all along.

    We repeal the EEC act of 1973. We're out. We default to WTO. Salutary chaos ensues. Fuck it.
    Did you have a row with your latest girl-friend last night. Has she left you with a spare bottle of ‘sauce’?
    At least Sean has a girlfriend! :lol:
    GirlfriendS.

    GirlfriendS

    with an S

    I bow to your superior pulling power :)
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    No it won't, and if the EU play hard ball with the UK on a Brexit deal, the SNP will not be popular outwith their core membership if seen to be undermining the UK position even further.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    RobD said:

    AnneJGP said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    Do EU employment laws allow them to sack all their UK staff?
    As the new offices are probably going to be quite far away I believe the workers will be entitled to redundancy pay. Small comfort for those losing their jobs though!
    Indeed, but will they have the option to transfer?

    It may well be that the relocation takes place before they technically become non-EU citizens.

    Are the posts they fill already only open to EU citizens, or will the loss of citizenship not be a reason for them to lose their job without the option of staying?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.


    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    We can leave tomorrow. We just LEAVE. As even europhiles admit, we have been sovereign all along.

    We repeal the EEC act of 1973. We're out. We default to WTO. Salutary chaos ensues. Fuck it.
    So it's 'hard as fuck' Brexit tonight, is it? Hard to keep up.
    SeanT will be all soft and floppy soon enough. He changes his mind more often than his underpants.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Every EU Authority and Agency based in the UK will obviously be repatriated back to an EU country as a result of the UK leaving. - If the Guardian article is to be believed, I find it very odd that that should be the EU’s first priority, large pinch of salt needed me thinks.

    What will replace the European Aviation Safety Authority ?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    43 dead in Syria today. But no posts here on PB. The "wrong" people died. And Jabhat-Al-Nusra are now our allies !

    50 people die in Syria every day, don't they? Every one a horror, every one a sadness. But it's a civil war. They are notoriously nasty. What should we do? Bomb them like Trump?

    I say: Leave Well Alone, and maybe hope Assad wins. As the least worst of several deeply evil options.
    It’s 1984 isn’t it. Yesterday Eastasia were the enemy. Now they are our allies. Tomorrow they will be our enemies again!
    Or something like that.

    IIRC both sides in the Spanish Civil War were equally nasty, but people in UK regarded one side as good and the other as the devil incarnate. Or the other way round depending on whether one was essentially Left or Right.
    Not sure if one could describe the protagonists as equally nasty in a war in which the Nationalists executed at least three times as many civilians as the Republicans. In any case the latter were the democratically elected government, the former Fascist rebels.

    People in the UK (unlike their government) were able to distinguish between the sides enough for over 2k to volunteer for the Republican cause, while barely dozens answered the Nationalists' call.
    "Although the war is often portrayed as a struggle between democracy and fascism, some historians consider it more accurately described as a struggle between leftist revolution and rightist counter-revolution.[6]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War


    also:

    "News of the rightist military coup in 1936 unleashed a social revolutionary response, and no republican region escaped revolutionary and anticlerical violence - though in the Basque Country this was minimal.[6] The violence consisted of the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832[7] members of the Catholic clergy, the vast majority in the summer of 1936 in the wake of the military coup), as well as attacks on landowners, industrialists, and politicians, and the desecration and burning of monasteries and churches.[7]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    Every EU Authority and Agency based in the UK will obviously be repatriated back to an EU country as a result of the UK leaving. - If the Guardian article is to be believed, I find it very odd that that should be the EU’s first priority, large pinch of salt needed me thinks.

    What will replace the European Aviation Safety Authority ?
    British bulldog spirit is all that is needed, our flyboys fly by the seat of their pants!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,024
    I come on PB, I see the usual shit being thrown around. I post a sarky comment. And then I leave...

    Or do I?

    I'm certainly not going to get engaged in another tedious Brexit discussion with people who can't change their minds, and won't change the subject.

    But I will attempt to steer the conversation. I have seen three brilliant TV series this year.

    Big Little Lies is terrific. Very tense, with some nicely rounded characters. It isn't perfect (all the male characters are weak or shits or both, the conclusion is a bit too well telegraphed), but it is well paced, well scripted and well edited. 9/10.

    Goliath is typically well made David E Kelly lawsuit story. It's David (played outstandingly by Billy Bob Thornton) vs Goliath (played by William Hurt). Washed out alcoholic, blah blah. What's brilliant about this is the female supporting characters (and Billy Bob). The plot is ridiculous and the closing trial anti-climatic, but it's well worth a watch. 8.5/10.

    Shut Eye is the Sopranos in LA and set around the fortune telling mafia. You know those signs offering physic reading? This is about the organisation that sits behind that. Chillingly dark, and extremely well made. It's a bit unevenly paced, but the premise is good and the characterisation excellent. 8.5/10.

    I have no idea where in the UK these shows can be watched, but they are all worth seeing.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983
    surbiton said:

    Every EU Authority and Agency based in the UK will obviously be repatriated back to an EU country as a result of the UK leaving. - If the Guardian article is to be believed, I find it very odd that that should be the EU’s first priority, large pinch of salt needed me thinks.

    What will replace the European Aviation Safety Authority ?
    We had a discussion about this on a previous thread. Most of the EASA responsibilities in the UK are done by the Civil Aviation Authority. I suspect in the interim we'd be a bit like Turkey and say we are adopting the rules of the EASA while not being an EU member.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352

    surbiton said:

    Every EU Authority and Agency based in the UK will obviously be repatriated back to an EU country as a result of the UK leaving. - If the Guardian article is to be believed, I find it very odd that that should be the EU’s first priority, large pinch of salt needed me thinks.

    What will replace the European Aviation Safety Authority ?
    British bulldog spirit is all that is needed, our flyboys fly by the seat of their pants!
    "Flash by name, Flash by nature! Woof!" :lol:
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,024
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is ty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels


    Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn

    Losing the Medicines Agency has the potential to damage the NHS by far more than can be recovered by a busload of cash.
    Losing all EU agencies here was surely always inevitable even with the softest of soft brexits?
    A statement of the bleeding obvious. We voted to cut ties with our neighbours, It would be absurd to expect european institutions to be based here post Brexit.

    Leavers weren't so delusional as to expect them to stay, surely?
    No. Of course they were going to leave. But we expect 20% of EU assets, for which we have paid. Let them work THAT out.
    That is a seperate negotiation on assets and liabilities, but it was always inevitable that these institutions would be moving. It makes sense for that process to start immediately in order to have minimum disruption to their functions.

    It is not deliberate humiliation. Brexit is punishment enough, as the wise fellow said.
    I suspect the Guardian is spinning this in a Remoanery way. As is their wont.

    But it reinforces my suspicions that the biggest threat to a Smooth Brexit is the British media, on both sides. The eurosceptic tabloids will demand an insane Smash Bang Brexit, the Remoanery papers will say we are being humiliated, we must stay, reverse the vote, thus firing up sceptics to demand Titanium Brexit.

    This whole complex, painful process would be better if we closed all UK media, left and right, Leave and Stay, for the next 24 months
    If only there was somebody on PB that was a profit centre for the UK press and might have some influence...
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    The humiliation will be entirely self-inflicted.

    It was May's decision to press on with a hard Brexit despite two of the four nations of the UK voting to Remain in the EU. Just think how we would perceive a similar situation if we were talking about another multinational state on the other side of Europe? The political logic from all sides, not least the true Brexit believers, can only lead to the break-up of the UK.
    Seriously? Given the choice, who would those parts of the UK who voted to Remain trust the most to have their back in a tight corner, the rest of the UK or Europe?!
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    Oh dear.

    And there were such interesting discussions earlier but now we're back onto the EU again.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    I come on PB, I see the usual shit being thrown around. I post a sarky comment. And then I leave...

    Or do I?

    I'm certainly not going to get engaged in another tedious Brexit discussion with people who can't change their minds, and won't change the subject.

    But I will attempt to steer the conversation. I have seen three brilliant TV series this year.

    Big Little Lies is terrific. Very tense, with some nicely rounded characters. It isn't perfect (all the male characters are weak or shits or both, the conclusion is a bit too well telegraphed), but it is well paced, well scripted and well edited. 9/10.

    Goliath is typically well made David E Kelly lawsuit story. It's David (played outstandingly by Billy Bob Thornton) vs Goliath (played by William Hurt). Washed out alcoholic, blah blah. What's brilliant about this is the female supporting characters (and Billy Bob). The plot is ridiculous and the closing trial anti-climatic, but it's well worth a watch. 8.5/10.

    Shut Eye is the Sopranos in LA and set around the fortune telling mafia. You know those signs offering physic reading? This is about the organisation that sits behind that. Chillingly dark, and extremely well made. It's a bit unevenly paced, but the premise is good and the characterisation excellent. 8.5/10.

    I have no idea where in the UK these shows can be watched, but they are all worth seeing.

    Big Little Lies - Sky Atlantic

    Goliath - Amazon Prime

    Shut Eye - No UK broadcaster yet
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983

    Oh dear.

    And there were such interesting discussions earlier but now we're back onto the EU again.

    Drat, did I miss an AV discussion? :(
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,024

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    43 dead in Syria today. But no posts here on PB. The "wrong" people died. And Jabhat-Al-Nusra are now our allies !

    50 people die in Syria every day, don't they? Every one a horror, every one a sadness. But it's a civil war. They are notoriously nasty. What should we do? Bomb them like Trump?

    I say: Leave Well Alone, and maybe hope Assad wins. As the least worst of several deeply evil options.
    It’s 1984 isn’t it. Yesterday Eastasia were the enemy. Now they are our allies. Tomorrow they will be our enemies again!
    Or something like that.

    IIRC both sides in the Spanish Civil War were equally nasty, but people in UK regarded one side as good and the other as the devil incarnate. Or the other way round depending on whether one was essentially Left or Right.
    Not sure if one could describe the protagonists as equally nasty in a war in which the Nationalists executed at least three times as many civilians as the Republicans. In any case the latter were the democratically elected government, the former Fascist rebels.

    People in the UK (unlike their government) were able to distinguish between the sides enough for over 2k to volunteer for the Republican cause, while barely dozens answered the Nationalists' call.
    "Although the war is often portrayed as a struggle between democracy and fascism, some historians consider it more accurately described as a struggle between leftist revolution and rightist counter-revolution.[6]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War


    also:

    "News of the rightist military coup in 1936 unleashed a social revolutionary response, and no republican region escaped revolutionary and anticlerical violence - though in the Basque Country this was minimal.[6] The violence consisted of the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832[7] members of the Catholic clergy, the vast majority in the summer of 1936 in the wake of the military coup), as well as attacks on landowners, industrialists, and politicians, and the desecration and burning of monasteries and churches.[7]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)
    I'm sure you've read Homage to Catalonia. They were both pretty horrible. But here's the thing: would you rather stand up for democratic institutions, even when they delivered a result you didn't like? Or go to war to overthrow them?

    It's almost like there's a lesson here...
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    So this is wwels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed so. "Fuck Europe" will be the natural UK attitude.
    We can't leave before March 2019 without their agreement. Scottish independence is already baked in. The UK will be defunct by the time this is over.
    That is seriously unfortunate and I hope it is not so. But it has to be said that if the EU seeks to humiliate, then they clearly are not the logical, moral organisation we are repeatedly told. Such an organisation would strike the best deal for its members, which surely does not include humiliating neighbouring countries.
    The humiliation will be entirely self-inflicted.

    It was May's decision to press on with a hard Brexit despite two of the four nations of the UK voting to Remain in the EU. Just think how we would perceive a similar situation if we were talking about another multinational state on the other side of Europe? The political logic from all sides, not least the true Brexit believers, can only lead to the break-up of the UK.
    You are insane. The EU is seeking to humiliate according to that write up, which means going above and beyond what they need to do to stick up for its members and in fact seeking to be punitive and vindictive, and you blame that on the UK too. The EU has a duty to stick up for its members, it does not have a duty to humiliate or punish, but the motivation appears to be the latter not the former.
    Yes - he is insane.
  • Options
    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    kle4 said:

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    If the EU is intending to humiliate us, as the report claims, then the hardest of hard brexits it will have to be - if they want to humiliate, then the EU was never interested in a meaningful discussion and May can quite rightly claim the EU allowed no options, and so any problems are their fault, since they never even waited to negotiate with May before seeking humiliation.

    The biggest risk to the Tory lead is that May gets blamed for a poor deal, but if the EU starts out with a stance that is portrayed, with glee, as humiliation, then May will get a much easier pass - any problems would have been blamed on a truculent EU anyway, but apparently that defence will be 100% accurate.
    Indeed.

    Being in EverCloserUnion with an organisation that hates and wishes to humiliate Britain will not seem like a good alternative to leaving.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,053

    So this is what Taking Back Control looks like

    The EU is set to inflict a double humiliation on Theresa May, stripping Britain of its European agencies within weeks, while formally rejecting the prime minister’s calls for early trade talks.

    The Observer has learned that EU diplomats agreed their uncompromising position at a crunch meeting on Tuesday, held to set out the union’s strategy in the talks due to start next month.

    A beauty contest between member states who want the European banking and medicine agencies, currently located in London, will begin within two weeks, with selection criteria to be unveiled by the president of the European council, Donald Tusk.

    The European Banking Authority and the European Medicines Agency employ about 1,000 people, many of them British, and provide a hub for businesses in the UK. It is understood that the EU’s chief negotiator hopes the agencies will know their new locations by June, although the process may take longer. Cities such as Frankfurt, Milan, Amsterdam and Paris are competing to take the agencies, which are regarded as among the EU’s crown jewels.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that Britain failed to secure the backing of any of the 27 countries for its case that trade talks should start early in the two years of negotiations allowed by article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. The position will be announced at a Brussels summit on 29 April.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

    We knew that already hence the talk of a transition period there was no chance of a full EU UK FTA by 2019
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,024
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I come on PB, I see the usual shit being thrown around. I post a sarky comment. And then I leave...

    Or do I?

    I'm certainly not going to get engaged in another tedious Brexit discussion with people who can't change their minds, and won't change the subject.

    But I will attempt to steer the conversation. I have seen three brilliant TV series this year.

    Big Little Lies is terrific. Very tense, with some nicely rounded characters. It isn't perfect (all the male characters are weak or shits or both, the conclusion is a bit too well telegraphed), but it is well paced, well scripted and well edited. 9/10.

    Goliath is typically well made David E Kelly lawsuit story. It's David (played outstandingly by Billy Bob Thornton) vs Goliath (played by William Hurt). Washed out alcoholic, blah blah. What's brilliant about this is the female supporting characters (and Billy Bob). The plot is ridiculous and the closing trial anti-climatic, but it's well worth a watch. 8.5/10.

    Shut Eye is the Sopranos in LA and set around the fortune telling mafia. You know those signs offering physic reading? This is about the organisation that sits behind that. Chillingly dark, and extremely well made. It's a bit unevenly paced, but the premise is good and the characterisation excellent. 8.5/10.

    I have no idea where in the UK these shows can be watched, but they are all worth seeing.

    Yes, yes, yes, you're now living in LA. Well done. Are you happy now? Frankly, I can't abide PB-ers who come on here to boast about their wealth, success, royalties, girlfriendS, with comments barely disguised as TV critiques or mild observations about AV or forex.

    PUKE
    It is a complete coincidence that two of the three shows I mentioned are set in beautifully sunny LA.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    43 dead in Syria today. But no posts here on PB. The "wrong" people died. And Jabhat-Al-Nusra are now our allies !

    50 people die in Syria every day, don't they? Every one a horror, every one a sadness. But it's a civil war. They are notoriously nasty. What should we do? Bomb them like Trump?

    I say: Leave Well Alone, and maybe hope Assad wins. As the least worst of several deeply evil options.
    It’s 1984 isn’t it. Yesterday Eastasia were the enemy. Now they are our allies. Tomorrow they will be our enemies again!
    Or something like that.

    IIRC both sides in the Spanish Civil War were equally nasty, but people in UK regarded one side as good and the other as the devil incarnate. Or the other way round depending on whether one was essentially Left or Right.
    Not sure if one could describe the protagonists as equally nasty in a war in which the Nationalists executed at least three times as many civilians as the Republicans. In any case the latter were the democratically elected government, the former Fascist rebels.

    People in the UK (unlike their government) were able to distinguish between the sides enough for over 2k to volunteer for the Republican cause, while barely dozens answered the Nationalists' call.
    "Although the war is often portrayed as a struggle between democracy and fascism, some historians consider it more accurately described as a struggle between leftist revolution and rightist counter-revolution.[6]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War


    also:

    "News of the rightist military coup in 1936 unleashed a social revolutionary response, and no republican region escaped revolutionary and anticlerical violence - though in the Basque Country this was minimal.[6] The violence consisted of the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832[7] members of the Catholic clergy, the vast majority in the summer of 1936 in the wake of the military coup), as well as attacks on landowners, industrialists, and politicians, and the desecration and burning of monasteries and churches.[7]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain)
    I'm sure you've read Homage to Catalonia. They were both pretty horrible. But here's the thing: would you rather stand up for democratic institutions, even when they delivered a result you didn't like? Or go to war to overthrow them?

    It's almost like there's a lesson here...
    Then again Franco did prevaricate in his "alliance" with Hitler, only sending a token force of volunteers to the Eastern Front.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352
    RobD said:

    Oh dear.

    And there were such interesting discussions earlier but now we're back onto the EU again.

    Drat, did I miss an AV discussion? :(
    Adult Video? Where? :lol:
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352
    OK, here's my attempt to steer the conversation:

    Slumming it in Weymouth this long weekend, and went to Durdle Door today. Monkey World tomorrow and hopefully Swanage Railway on Monday!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,024

    Then again Franco did prevaricate in his "alliance" with Hitler, only sending a token force of volunteers to the Eastern Front.

    I've always admired Franco for taking German help in the civil war and then offering basically nothing in return.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    There's no shortage of possibilities for x among British politicians.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,190


    Then again Franco did prevaricate in his "alliance" with Hitler, only sending a token force of volunteers to the Eastern Front.

    You should have done your Wiki thing first, 45,000 wasn't a token force.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Having the EU financial regulator outside of the City is a recipe for disaster, but mostly for them. The level of oversight that EU banks operating in London will receive from Brussels will undoubtedly lessen as a result.

    On TV shows, I had a very interesting chat with a senior producer at SPE TV UK (the guys that make The Crown). He sincerely believes that traditional TV is in its dying days and that on demand is the future which is why their big TV bet has been with Netflix and they have more shows lined up with Netflix than with any single traditional broadcaster. Spotify is killing the radio (though not physical ownership) and Netflix will kill TV (though not physical ownership). I'm also looking forward to the second season of the Crown and an upcoming series they are in talks to the get the rights for.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983


    Then again Franco did prevaricate in his "alliance" with Hitler, only sending a token force of volunteers to the Eastern Front.

    You should have done your Wiki thing first, 45,000 wasn't a token force.
    Perhaps relative to the number on the front!
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    Then again Franco did prevaricate in his "alliance" with Hitler, only sending a token force of volunteers to the Eastern Front.

    I've always admired Franco for taking German help in the civil war and then offering basically nothing in return.
    His troops were too busy on internal repression and massacres for foreign adventures.
  • Options

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
    Boris does feature in said thread, however he is not the X in question.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,352


    Then again Franco did prevaricate in his "alliance" with Hitler, only sending a token force of volunteers to the Eastern Front.

    You should have done your Wiki thing first, 45,000 wasn't a token force.
    "We are the 45!!!!" :lol:

    But seriously, 45,000 is about the same number as that other token pro-Axis force, the INA.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
    Boris does feature in said thread, however he is not the X in question.
    DD? he is known to be a big tit.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
    Boris does feature in said thread, however he is not the X in question.
    It's May, isn't it? :p
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    OK, here's my attempt to steer the conversation:

    Slumming it in Weymouth this long weekend, and went to Durdle Door today. Monkey World tomorrow and hopefully Swanage Railway on Monday!

    Durdle door is great - We didn't do either of the other two you mention, but the Green Lagoon was pretty nice too.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
    Boris does feature in said thread, however he is not the X in question.
    Liam Fox?
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    rcs1000 said:

    I come on PB, I see the usual shit being thrown around. I post a sarky comment. And then I leave...

    Or do I?

    I'm certainly not going to get engaged in another tedious Brexit discussion with people who can't change their minds, and won't change the subject.

    But I will attempt to steer the conversation. I have seen three brilliant TV series this year.

    Big Little Lies is terrific. Very tense, with some nicely rounded characters. It isn't perfect (all the male characters are weak or shits or both, the conclusion is a bit too well telegraphed), but it is well paced, well scripted and well edited. 9/10.

    Goliath is typically well made David E Kelly lawsuit story. It's David (played outstandingly by Billy Bob Thornton) vs Goliath (played by William Hurt). Washed out alcoholic, blah blah. What's brilliant about this is the female supporting characters (and Billy Bob). The plot is ridiculous and the closing trial anti-climatic, but it's well worth a watch. 8.5/10.

    Shut Eye is the Sopranos in LA and set around the fortune telling mafia. You know those signs offering physic reading? This is about the organisation that sits behind that. Chillingly dark, and extremely well made. It's a bit unevenly paced, but the premise is good and the characterisation excellent. 8.5/10.

    I have no idea where in the UK these shows can be watched, but they are all worth seeing.

    One of the reasons PB interests me is that, even with a topic that gets flogged to death, such as Brexit, very occasionally somebody does come up with a new angle (new to me, anyway, in spire of browsing most threads I've time for).
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
    Boris does feature in said thread, however he is not the X in question.
    DD? he is known to be a big tit.
    The least crap of the Three Brexiteers.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,091
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I come on PB, I see the usual shit being thrown around. I post a sarky comment. And then I leave...

    Or do I?

    I'm certainly not going to get engaged in another tedious Brexit discussion with people who can't change their minds, and won't change the subject.

    But I will attempt to steer the conversation. I have seen three brilliant TV series this year.

    Big Little Lies is terrific. Very tense, with some nicely rounded characters. It isn't perfect (all the male characters are weak or shits or both, the conclusion is a bit too well telegraphed), but it is well paced, well scripted and well edited. 9/10.

    Goliath is typically well made David E Kelly lawsuit story. It's David (played outstandingly by Billy Bob Thornton) vs Goliath (played by William Hurt). Washed out alcoholic, blah blah. What's brilliant about this is the female supporting characters (and Billy Bob). The plot is ridiculous and the closing trial anti-climatic, but it's well worth a watch. 8.5/10.

    Shut Eye is the Sopranos in LA and set around the fortune telling mafia. You know those signs offering physic reading? This is about the organisation that sits behind that. Chillingly dark, and extremely well made. It's a bit unevenly paced, but the premise is good and the characterisation excellent. 8.5/10.

    I have no idea where in the UK these shows can be watched, but they are all worth seeing.

    Yes, yes, yes, you're now living in LA. Well done. Are you happy now? Frankly, I can't abide PB-ers who come on here to boast about their wealth, success, royalties, girlfriendS, with comments barely disguised as TV critiques or mild observations about AV or forex.

    PUKE
    It is a complete coincidence that two of the three shows I mentioned are set in beautifully sunny LA.
    LA is a slightly dull city, in my experience (and I have good friends there and have been to the BEST parties), but I sincerely hope you have fun in in the sun. Just keep an eye on your UK *properties*, eh?
    LA seems to be getting left behind in the riot action stakes these days. You only need to drive up the coast to see this happening right now:

    https://twitter.com/davidmackau/status/853337412310880258
  • Options
    RobD said:

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
    Boris does feature in said thread, however he is not the X in question.
    It's May, isn't it? :p
    As if I would ever write a thread disparaging Mrs May.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I come on PB, I see the usual shit being thrown around. I post a sarky comment. And then I leave...

    Or do I?

    I'm certainly not going to get engaged in another tedious Brexit discussion with people who can't change their minds, and won't change the subject.

    But I will attempt to steer the conversation. I have seen three brilliant TV series this year.

    Big Little Lies is terrific. Very tense, with some nicely rounded characters. It isn't perfect (all the male characters are weak or shits or both, the conclusion is a bit too well telegraphed), but it is well paced, well scripted and well edited. 9/10.

    Goliath is typically well made David E Kelly lawsuit story. It's David (played outstandingly by Billy Bob Thornton) vs Goliath (played by William Hurt). Washed out alcoholic, blah blah. What's brilliant about this is the female supporting characters (and Billy Bob). The plot is ridiculous and the closing trial anti-climatic, but it's well worth a watch. 8.5/10.

    Shut Eye is the Sopranos in LA and set around the fortune telling mafia. You know those signs offering physic reading? This is about the organisation that sits behind that. Chillingly dark, and extremely well made. It's a bit unevenly paced, but the premise is good and the characterisation excellent. 8.5/10.

    I have no idea where in the UK these shows can be watched, but they are all worth seeing.

    Yes, yes, yes, you're now living in LA. Well done. Are you happy now? Frankly, I can't abide PB-ers who come on here to boast about their wealth, success, royalties, girlfriendS, with comments barely disguised as TV critiques or mild observations about AV or forex.

    PUKE
    It is a complete coincidence that two of the three shows I mentioned are set in beautifully sunny LA.
    LA is a slightly dull city, in my experience (and I have good friends there and have been to the BEST parties), but I sincerely hope you have fun in in the sun. Just keep an eye on your UK *properties*, eh?
    LA seems to be getting left behind in the riot action stakes these days. You only need to drive up the coast to see this happening right now:

    twitter.com/davidmackau/status/853337412310880258
    There are pro-Trump people in Berkeley? They must have spent weeks tracking them down. :D
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
    Boris does feature in said thread, however he is not the X in question.
    DD? he is known to be a big tit.
    The least crap of the Three Brexiteers.
    That is like comparing E Coli with Vibrio Cholera and Giardia in the shit stakes.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    rcs1000 said:

    I come on PB, I see the usual shit being thrown around. I post a sarky comment. And then I leave...

    Or do I?

    I'm certainly not going to get engaged in another tedious Brexit discussion with people who can't change their minds, and won't change the subject.

    But I will attempt to steer the conversation. I have seen three brilliant TV series this year.

    Big Little Lies is terrific. Very tense, with some nicely rounded characters. It isn't perfect (all the male characters are weak or shits or both, the conclusion is a bit too well telegraphed), but it is well paced, well scripted and well edited. 9/10.

    Goliath is typically well made David E Kelly lawsuit story. It's David (played outstandingly by Billy Bob Thornton) vs Goliath (played by William Hurt). Washed out alcoholic, blah blah. What's brilliant about this is the female supporting characters (and Billy Bob). The plot is ridiculous and the closing trial anti-climatic, but it's well worth a watch. 8.5/10.

    Shut Eye is the Sopranos in LA and set around the fortune telling mafia. You know those signs offering physic reading? This is about the organisation that sits behind that. Chillingly dark, and extremely well made. It's a bit unevenly paced, but the premise is good and the characterisation excellent. 8.5/10.

    I have no idea where in the UK these shows can be watched, but they are all worth seeing.

    Big Little Lies - Sky Atlantic

    Goliath - Amazon Prime

    Shut Eye - No UK broadcaster yet
    Seen both of the first two. Both good, Goliath was superior viewing I thought.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,983

    RobD said:

    For balance, I've written an x is crap thread for the morning and it isn't about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Please leave Boris alone .
    Boris does feature in said thread, however he is not the X in question.
    It's May, isn't it? :p
    As if I would ever write a thread disparaging Mrs May.
    Don't you mean "pound shop Gordon Brown"? ;)
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    surbiton said:

    Every EU Authority and Agency based in the UK will obviously be repatriated back to an EU country as a result of the UK leaving. - If the Guardian article is to be believed, I find it very odd that that should be the EU’s first priority, large pinch of salt needed me thinks.

    What will replace the European Aviation Safety Authority ?
    British bulldog spirit is all that is needed, our flyboys fly by the seat of their pants!
    Or - here is a wild idea . . the CAA who err do a lot of it now could continue to do so.
This discussion has been closed.