Mr. Root, something can be amusing, but still foolish.
It can, but I think you're being over sensitive. Anyone who reacts to such a comment officially is using it as a pretext, and would find something else if it wasn't that.
Just looked at Betfair to back the Lib Dems... mistakenly looked at the 'betting wo Labour" market & ended up laying them at 1.12!
Good bet/bad bet?
I can't see why they are so favoured. They did dreadfully last time - have students really forgiven then for tuition fees?
It's the theory. I think the favouring is just because if anyone other than lab is to get it, it would to be them, so as lab are down give it a shot. I think the lab vote will hold up here though.
I was on a train passing through Gorton the other day. The view out of the window shouted Labour, not LibDem.
I did the Newcastle Metro last week, along with Newcastle to Berwick, Newcastle to Sunderland (via main line) and Newcastle to Carlisle. Even managed the curve connecting High-Level Bridge with the route towards Carlisle.
Does anyone really think that Vladimir Putin was unhappy about Brexit? Or is it just that they are annoyed that other people noticed that it enormously helps Russia's foreign policy aims?
Just looked at Betfair to back the Lib Dems... mistakenly looked at the 'betting wo Labour" market & ended up laying them at 1.12!
Good bet/bad bet?
I can't see why they are so favoured. They did dreadfully last time - have students really forgiven then for tuition fees?
It's the theory. I think the favouring is just because if anyone other than lab is to get it, it would to be them, so as lab are down give it a shot. I think the lab vote will hold up here though.
I was on a train passing through Gorton the other day. The view out of the window shouted Labour, not LibDem.
I've no doubt. The honourable member for Palestine, George Galloway, hopes to change that though.
OpinionWay had Macron most convincing on 24%, then Le Pen and Fillon on 19%, Melenchon on 15% and Hamon on 10%, so Macron comes out on top but not by a huge margin and I doubt it changed a great deal
I agree. They mostly held their positions. If there was any gainer or loser, it was Fillon, down a little because he's saddled with the policy of discarding the 35-hour week. Macron looked uncomfortable but he had an easy time. He only dealt with immigration by asserting what "we the EU" should do about it, and nobody asked him about his desire to bring back conscription. Had the presenters pushed him on either of these, he could have taken a big hit.
The next debate, this time among all the candidates, has been pencilled in by BFMTV and CNews for 4 April.
Which foreign policy aims has it enormously helped? EU resolve in sanctions in Ukraine? Defence of the Baltic States?
I agree he has a strategic interest in weakening the unity of the EU, and you can certainly make a case that Brexit has contributed to that, but I don't see the evidence for "enormously" helped.
Alternatively, you could argue a European Army and more united foreign policy is more like to proceed post-Brexit, and the EU was drastically underfunding its military beforehand.
If Trump as President forces more Nato members to pay the full 2% that certainly won't help Putin.
If Trump uses it as an excuse not to support NATO, then Putin wins.
Does anyone really think that Vladimir Putin was unhappy about Brexit? Or is it just that they are annoyed that other people noticed that it enormously helps Russia's foreign policy aims?
Which foreign policy aims has it enormously helped? EU resolve in sanctions in Ukraine? Defence of the Baltic States?
I agree he has a strategic interest in weakening the unity of the EU, and you can certainly make a case that Brexit has contributed to that, but I don't see the evidence for "enormously" helped.
Alternatively, you could argue a European Army and more united foreign policy is more like to proceed post-Brexit, and the EU was drastically underfunding its military beforehand.
You don't think that having Britain at the throats of the rest of the EU (and vice versa) for years to come, arguing introspectively among themselves indefinitely, isn't good for Russia?
ooooooo-kay...
In the meantime, Russian influence in the Balkans in the last few months has grown rapidly.
Let's not forget that the Tory right is now seeking to prostrate the UK at the feet of Trump, while the continued territorial integrity of the UK is also under threat. How can Putin not be loving it?
"The (72) MPs warned the future of the BBC "will be in doubt" if it is not seen as a impartial broker".
Tory MPs threatening and bullying the BBC ........
Please don't ever change or you might become likeable
Report things in the way that we want or else. Straight out of the Trump and Putin playbook. No surprise.
Because the BBC is completely impartial .........
It pisses off Leavers, it pisses off Remainers, it pisses off Corbynites, it pisses off right wing Tories, it pisses of Scottish nationalists, it pisses off unionists. Bias is in the eye of the beholder.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Just looked at Betfair to back the Lib Dems... mistakenly looked at the 'betting wo Labour" market & ended up laying them at 1.12!
Good bet/bad bet?
I can't see why they are so favoured. They did dreadfully last time - have students really forgiven then for tuition fees?
It's the theory. I think the favouring is just because if anyone other than lab is to get it, it would to be them, so as lab are down give it a shot. I think the lab vote will hold up here though.
I was on a train passing through Gorton the other day. The view out of the window shouted Labour, not LibDem.
I did the Newcastle Metro last week, along with Newcastle to Berwick, Newcastle to Sunderland (via main line) and Newcastle to Carlisle. Even managed the curve connecting High-Level Bridge with the route towards Carlisle.
"Newcastle Metro"!?!? Tyne & Wear Metro - you don't want to upset those of us from south of the Tyne!
I saw your post the other day mentioning you had been to Knottingley - I trust you covered both the route from Leeds and the route from Wakefield. Did you also do Castleford - Wakefield Kirkgate and Kirkgate to Leeds avoiding Castleford? What about Kirkgate to Doncaster via the back of Knottingley station on Grand Central?
Does anyone really think that Vladimir Putin was unhappy about Brexit? Or is it just that they are annoyed that other people noticed that it enormously helps Russia's foreign policy aims?
Which foreign policy aims has it enormously helped? EU resolve in sanctions in Ukraine? Defence of the Baltic States?
I agree he has a strategic interest in weakening the unity of the EU, and you can certainly make a case that Brexit has contributed to that, but I don't see the evidence for "enormously" helped.
Alternatively, you could argue a European Army and more united foreign policy is more like to proceed post-Brexit, and the EU was drastically underfunding its military beforehand.
You don't think that having Britain at the throats of the rest of the EU (and vice versa) for years to come, arguing introspectively among themselves indefinitely, isn't good for Russia?
ooooooo-kay...
In the meantime, Russian influence in the Balkans in the last few months has grown rapidly.
Let's not forget that the Tory right is now seeking to prostrate the UK at the feet of Trump, while the continued territorial integrity of the UK is also under threat. How can Putin not be loving it?
Rather than splitting in two with the creation af SDP2 I think maybe Labour should split into multiple irreconcilable parties: 1. Momentum/commies/SWP/Stop the war/trots and unwashed 2. Islington luvvies/JK rowling/transgender bathrooms/this is what a feminist looks like 3. Northern WWC remnant who aren't terribly nation minded 4. Atom sized Scottish remnant 5. Public sector client vote 6. EU loving bit 7. EU hating bit 8. Terrorist loving bit 9. Terrorist hating bit 10. Blairites 11. Brownites 12. Gobshites 13. Free owl tendency 14. etc
Out of interest, where would you place us PB Labourites in that classification?
Different categories for different PB lefties. You I'd place in the Watermelon group.
The problem some have is that, for the first time in a long while, they're on the losing side. The media-political class are unused to that.
In the same way, had Clinton won the US would still be very divided, it's just that the divide would be papered over by the Democrat-leaning majority media there.
Now we have cretins calling for London to be a city state, because democracy is only valid when you're winning according to Lammy. It's especially idiotic that some are bewailing division and proposing more of it as the remedy.
Does anyone really think that Vladimir Putin was unhappy about Brexit? Or is it just that they are annoyed that other people noticed that it enormously helps Russia's foreign policy aims?
Does anyone think Putin would be unhappy about Scottish independence?
I'm sure he wouldn't.
But it's noteworthy that Britain's Putin-fanboys are found almost exclusively on the unhinged Brexit right. I'm sure that's just a curious coincidence.
Interesting - I didn't get to see the debate but looked in on PB last night where the consensus seemed to be that Macron was poor and Le Pen ran the show. Guess I should have learned how UKIP-lite PB is these days!
Maybe we'll see a rate rise. But I'm not holding my breath.
And now some good news: Official statistics show Britain’s public sector net borrowing, excluding taxpayer-backed banks, came in at £1.8bn last month, lower than a forecasted rise of £3.2bn and falling by £19.9bn over the financial year starting from April 2016. The ONS said this was the lowest year to date borrowing bill before the financial crisis hit in 2008.
Mr. Isam, Galloway was 26 on Ladbrokes when I checked earlier this morning (wasn't listed on Betfair). It's about the ninth safest Labour seat. Even with infighting, they should hold it easily.
Lib Dems are around 7.
However, with infighting and Corbyn, and Galloway (either winning or peeling off Labour support) a shock, whilst still very much odds against, could happen.
The problem some have is that, for the first time in a long while, they're on the losing side. The media-political class are unused to that.
In the same way, had Clinton won the US would still be very divided, it's just that the divide would be papered over by the Democrat-leaning majority media there.
Now we have cretins calling for London to be a city state, because democracy is only valid when you're winning according to Lammy. It's especially idiotic that some are bewailing division and proposing more of it as the remedy.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
Brexit really wouldn't affect NATO. Effectively losing control of one end of the GIUK gap would.
I think England would just have to pay whatver price was asked for access to Benebecula and Buchan.
To be clear I was referencing the position at the height of the Cold War. Now? I don't think there's going to be any recourse to REFORGER as 1st Guards Tank Army pours through the Fulda Gap. It's a different world.
Alan, Do you think Westminster would ever hav echanged anything if they had not taken to the armalite , even though it was pointless. There was no hope through democracy.
I'm with Seamclasses
There are plenty of examuality.
My view on this is quite simple: I think Northern Irish Catholics had a genuine grievance at how the province was run in the 1960s (and beforehand) where discrimination and bigotry was rife. They were perfectly justified in campaigning and marching vociferously for their civil rights, and for far-reaching reform. And I believe they would have got it: it was achieved peacefully around the world during that decade, and the decades that followed, not least of which in the United States, and South Africa.
But the terrorist campaign in pursuit of a United Ireland was the worst form of crime. Their objective never commanded majority support in Northern Ireland and it was an anti-democratic attempt to force the issue by the bomb and bullet and force the British to leave. Thousands die (futilely) for it, many horrifically murdered, and many more were maimed or punished. The economy of the province was set back decades.
Whilst one can only breathe a sigh of relief that the murderers and commanders eventually came to the table (when they realised their armed campaign was unwinnable) that does not excuse or forgive any of their actions, for which they deserve - and still deserve - to answer for and I hold them completely accountable for what they did.
As of course they say in Ireland, well I wouldn't have started from there.
And I don't think you can start from 1969, soft hats, and cups of tea on the streets.
Since pretty much the Acts of Union, there was the desire to have an independent Ireland and some people believed that armed insurrection was eventually the only way that they could achieve it. So they rose up a hundred years ago and achieved part of their aims with the establishment of the IFS and then Ireland. But there remained a grievance that the six counties should be part of a united Ireland.
And that, love or hate it, is what the IRA existed to bring about. It was a legitimate political aim. Defeated in the end one way or the other.
The problem some have is that, for the first time in a long while, they're on the losing side. The media-political class are unused to that.
In the same way, had Clinton won the US would still be very divided, it's just that the divide would be papered over by the Democrat-leaning majority media there.
Now we have cretins calling for London to be a city state, because democracy is only valid when you're winning according to Lammy. It's especially idiotic that some are bewailing division and proposing more of it as the remedy.
I think it is very very hard for some people (eg Matthew Parris) to come to terms with losing to out-groups they completely despise (in this case, Shire Tories, and working class voters in smaller urban areas). Some Conservatives must have felt the same way in 1945.
Mr. Observer, once we leave, I have hopes the nation will reunite. We're certainly no more split than we were in the 17th century, or France in the 12th, or the Eastern Empire in the 13th, or the Western Empire in the 3rd.
Edited extra bit: Mr. F, it certainly seems that way. The idea people with unapproved opinions could win a vote has driven a small but vocal number of people stark raving mad.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
Nonsense. Unionists May and Davidson have recently surpassed partitionist Sturgeon in Scottish sentiment. Wounds are healing thanks to the Brexit tonic. Be of good cheer, my brother.
Maybe we'll see a rate rise. But I'm not holding my breath.
And now some good news: Official statistics show Britain’s public sector net borrowing, excluding taxpayer-backed banks, came in at £1.8bn last month, lower than a forecasted rise of £3.2bn and falling by £19.9bn over the financial year starting from April 2016. The ONS said this was the lowest year to date borrowing bill before the financial crisis hit in 2008.
Why do you think the borrowing numbers have been so much better than expected this year?
Crikey, there is some serious hyperbole on here this morning. Global stability, world a more dangerous place, prostrating at the feet of Trump, Nation divided, Russian foreign policy objectives helped enormously. Some people are getting a bit too excited.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
Well we've had leaderships that ignore the plebs since Maggie was PM. The establishment has been cooking things to its own liking for 30 years or more, 40 on matters European. June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
The audience for last night's French TV debate was only 9.8 million, peaking at 11.5 million. That's a lot smaller than previous audiences for inter-round debates, but it's larger than the numbers who watched debates for the restricted primaries.
It's smaller than the number who watched the Dupont-Aignan walkout on Facebook too. Four minutes is easier to take than 3.5 hours.
Just looked at Betfair to back the Lib Dems... mistakenly looked at the 'betting wo Labour" market & ended up laying them at 1.12!
Good bet/bad bet?
I can't see why they are so favoured. They did dreadfully last time - have students really forgiven then for tuition fees?
It's the theory. I think the favouring is just because if anyone other than lab is to get it, it would to be them, so as lab are down give it a shot. I think the lab vote will hold up here though.
I was on a train passing through Gorton the other day. The view out of the window shouted Labour, not LibDem.
I did the Newcastle Metro last week, along with Newcastle to Berwick, Newcastle to Sunderland (via main line) and Newcastle to Carlisle. Even managed the curve connecting High-Level Bridge with the route towards Carlisle.
"Newcastle Metro"!?!? Tyne & Wear Metro - you don't want to upset those of us from south of the Tyne!
I saw your post the other day mentioning you had been to Knottingley - I trust you covered both the route from Leeds and the route from Wakefield. Did you also do Castleford - Wakefield Kirkgate and Kirkgate to Leeds avoiding Castleford? What about Kirkgate to Doncaster via the back of Knottingley station on Grand Central?
Sorry Tyne & Wear
Yes I did the entire triangle Woodlesford/Castleford/Normanton! And did both Knottingley routes. And two weeks ago I did the Grand Central train from Doncaster to Bradford via Pontefract (technically also Knottingley, though the platforms are on the infrequent route to Goole), Kirkgate, Mirfield and Halifax! That day, I started off in Manchester and changed at Doncaster just in time time to catch the Grand Central!
My own impressions from Manchester, that voted Remain, Corbyn really has pissed off the fan base by giving Mrs May a free pass on Brexit.
Gorton has quite a big student population, does it not? It's quite a big test for the Lib Dems given that the Tories and Ukip won't do any good.
ICM poll shows Conservatives in the lead amongst 18 - 24 year olds - so should have Gorton in the bag with all the students.
Charitably I think even if there is such a lead in the polls, and it is at least in the right ball park, the students of Gorton may be atypical even among that age group, and in any case the abstract of voting for the Tories in a hypothetical GE would be different to actively trying to get one in Gorton now, particularly when its possible the main reason for such polling, Corbyn, is either popular there, or if he is not, that the selected Labour candidate is not an avid Corbynista so they can relax.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
That's very true, and the disturbing thing is that we don't look to be getting that leadership- from any party, anytime soon.
Crikey, there is some serious hyperbole on here this morning. Global stability, world a more dangerous place, prostrating at the feet of Rump, Nation divided, Russian foreign policy objectives helped enormously. Some people are getting a bit too excited.
I fear Meeks has become a crank. It's a crying shame.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
Well we've had leaderships that ignore the plebs since Maggie was PM. The establishment has been cooking things to its own liking for 30 years or more, 40 on matters European. June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
Brexit is an object lesson in how acting in bad faith will come back to bite you. Had we been given the vote on the Lisbon Treaty we were promised, the outcome may have been quite different.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
Well we've had leaderships that ignore the plebs since Maggie was PM. The establishment has been cooking things to its own liking for 30 years or more, 40 on matters European. June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
The idea that the current Tory leadership is interested in the plebs is a little far-fetched, to say the least. The establishment is still in charge.
You have taken my comment totally the wrong way and demonstrated my point. We are a country that is horribly split.
Martin McGuinness played a huge role in bringing about peace in Northern Ireland. He was a great family man and my thoughts are with them
That McGuinness was in the IRA, condoned what they did and maybe even pulled the trigger a few times is without question, and you have to recognise that, whilst also recognising his work for the peace process in later years. Corbyn in that tweet has failed to recognise the evil side. That doesn't look good.
Does anyone really think that Vladimir Putin was unhappy about Brexit? Or is it just that they are annoyed that other people noticed that it enormously helps Russia's foreign policy aims?
Does anyone think Putin would be unhappy about Scottish independence?
I'm sure he wouldn't.
But it's noteworthy that Britain's Putin-fanboys are found almost exclusively on the unhinged Brexit right. I'm sure that's just a curious coincidence.
Martin McGuinness played a huge role in bringing about peace in Northern Ireland. He was a great family man and my thoughts are with them
I'm also still pretty young, but I don't think its the worst of Corbyn. McGuinness did play a huge role in bringing peace (since he was one of the primary offensive parties) and may well be a great family man. A more detailed statement will see whether Corbyn can manage the sort of statement May made, not ignoring McGunness' past but recognising the importance of where things ended up, in part thanks to him.
Rather than splitting in two with the creation af SDP2 I think maybe Labour should split into multiple irreconcilable parties: 1. Momentum/commies/SWP/Stop the war/trots and unwashed 2. Islington luvvies/JK rowling/transgender bathrooms/this is what a feminist looks like 3. Northern WWC remnant who aren't terribly nation minded 4. Atom sized Scottish remnant 5. Public sector client vote 6. EU loving bit 7. EU hating bit 8. Terrorist loving bit 9. Terrorist hating bit 10. Blairites 11. Brownites 12. Gobshites 13. Free owl tendency 14. etc
Out of interest, where would you place us PB Labourites in that classification?
Different categories for different PB lefties. You I'd place in the Watermelon group.
Thanks Patrick. I guess some others would try and stick me down as a No.7
Martin McGuinness played a huge role in bringing about peace in Northern Ireland. He was a great family man and my thoughts are with them
That McGuinness was in the IRA, condoned what they did and maybe even pulled the trigger a few times is without question, and you have to recognise that, whilst also recognising his work for the peace process in later years. Corbyn in that tweet has failed to recognise the evil side. That doesn't look good.
Mr. Observer, we were split before. The difference is that the best the plebs could do was lambast Mary Beard on Question Time for not understanding the real concerns of people in Grimsby at mass migration [only use that example because it stuck in my mind for some reason].
Incidentally, if we hadn't had a vote (and the referendum was entirely voluntary) this would not have gone away. UKIP or a comparable new party would've gained ever increasing popularity, but doing so takes a long time under our system. In the interim, the political and media class would've embedded us ever deeper in the EU and bitterness would have still grown.
This is an opportunity to lance the boil. Once we're out, the nation can unite, and pull together.
I'm not saying that *will* happen, only that it can. But it requires people to accept the result, and that other people have very different views about the country, but that's a feature, not a bug, of democracy.
"So Martin McGuinness has died. Already this is giving vent to the sort of ‘How McGuinness became a man of peace’ stories. Personally I have always thought the salient point about the man is not that he became a man of peace but that he was ever a man of violence.
Over recent years a narrative has developed around the Troubles, that the people who ‘became men of peace’ are much to be admired. This narrative overlooks the fact that the real people to be admired are those from all sides who – despite sharing many or all of the same grievances as the ‘men of violence’ – never thought the answer to their grievances lay in pulling out the finger-nails of people on the other side of the sectarian divide, planting bombs in shops or shooting farmers in the head...
Martin McGuinness played a huge role in bringing about peace in Northern Ireland. He was a great family man and my thoughts are with them
That McGuinness was in the IRA, condoned what they did and maybe even pulled the trigger a few times is without question, and you have to recognise that, whilst also recognising his work for the peace process in later years. Corbyn in that tweet has failed to recognise the evil side. That doesn't look good.
Corbyn doesn't think there was an evil side.
Corbyn agrees with the aims of the IRA (a united Ireland free of the oppressor British State). And for all his supposed pretty straight kind of guy-ness, he for some reason, has not had the kahunas to state this. He has, of course, never denied it, as far as I'm aware.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
Well we've had leaderships that ignore the plebs since Maggie was PM. The establishment has been cooking things to its own liking for 30 years or more, 40 on matters European. June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
The idea that the current Tory leadership is interested in the plebs is a little far-fetched, to say the least. The establishment is still in charge.
You have taken my comment totally the wrong way and demonstrated my point. We are a country that is horribly split.
Some might ask when the last time any government was interested in the plebs. People have noticed the country is split because the referendum shoved it in their faces, it was probably split for at least a decade before that, but our electoral system provided a smokescreen for the fact all the realistic options were the same
Yeah, we were all manipulated into voting for Brexit by the Kremlin's evil Mind-Control Ray!!!
I wondered who the guy outside my local polling station with a strong Russian accent was. He offered me a choice of Vodka or polonium. I chose the vodka.
"So Martin McGuinness has died. Already this is giving vent to the sort of ‘How McGuinness became a man of peace’ stories. Personally I have always thought the salient point about the man is not that he became a man of peace but that he was ever a man of violence.
Over recent years a narrative has developed around the Troubles, that the people who ‘became men of peace’ are much to be admired. This narrative overlooks the fact that the real people to be admired are those from all sides who – despite sharing many or all of the same grievances as the ‘men of violence’ – never thought the answer to their grievances lay in pulling out the finger-nails of people on the other side of the sectarian divide, planting bombs in shops or shooting farmers in the head...
Does anyone really think that Vladimir Putin was unhappy about Brexit? Or is it just that they are annoyed that other people noticed that it enormously helps Russia's foreign policy aims?
Does anyone think Putin would be unhappy about Scottish independence?
I'm sure he wouldn't.
But it's noteworthy that Britain's Putin-fanboys are found almost exclusively on the unhinged Brexit right. I'm sure that's just a curious coincidence.
What good does that do, mate? I obviously disagree with Alastair on Brexit, but he's still one of the best writers on PB. Tweeting that just looks well, a bit vapid.
Martin McGuinness played a huge role in bringing about peace in Northern Ireland. He was a great family man and my thoughts are with them
That McGuinness was in the IRA, condoned what they did and maybe even pulled the trigger a few times is without question, and you have to recognise that, whilst also recognising his work for the peace process in later years. Corbyn in that tweet has failed to recognise the evil side. That doesn't look good.
People have long memories, acknowledging both sides of McGuinness’s life, the terrorist and the politician will be hard for many to accept.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
That's very true, and the disturbing thing is that we don't look to be getting that leadership- from any party, anytime soon.
I'd take issue with the idea that we are more divided now than we have been in the recent past. All that has happened is that people who have become used to being on the "winning side" and being part of the ruling consensus have been upset to discover that when they were given a chance the majority of people who voted didn't agree with them.
Just looked at Betfair to back the Lib Dems... mistakenly looked at the 'betting wo Labour" market & ended up laying them at 1.12!
Good bet/bad bet?
I can't see why they are so favoured. They did dreadfully last time - have students really forgiven then for tuition fees?
It's the theory. I think the favouring is just because if anyone other than lab is to get it, it would to be them, so as lab are down give it a shot. I think the lab vote will hold up here though.
I was on a train passing through Gorton the other day. The view out of the window shouted Labour, not LibDem.
I did the Newcastle Metro last week, along with Newcastle to Berwick, Newcastle to Sunderland (via main line) and Newcastle to Carlisle. Even managed the curve connecting High-Level Bridge with the route towards Carlisle.
"Newcastle Metro"!?!? Tyne & Wear Metro - you don't want to upset those of us from south of the Tyne!
I saw your post the other day mentioning you had been to Knottingley - I trust you covered both the route from Leeds and the route from Wakefield. Did you also do Castleford - Wakefield Kirkgate and Kirkgate to Leeds avoiding Castleford? What about Kirkgate to Doncaster via the back of Knottingley station on Grand Central?
Sorry Tyne & Wear
Yes I did the entire triangle Woodlesford/Castleford/Normanton! And did both Knottingley routes. And two weeks ago I did the Grand Central train from Doncaster to Bradford via Pontefract (technically also Knottingley, though the platforms are on the infrequent route to Goole), Kirkgate, Mirfield and Halifax! That day, I started off in Manchester and changed at Doncaster just in time time to catch the Grand Central!
Impressive!
For your next challenge: Doncaster to York via Knottingley (the last Kings Cross - Newcastle of the day goes this way)
Rather than splitting in two with the creation af SDP2 I think maybe Labour should split into multiple irreconcilable parties: 1. Momentum/commies/SWP/Stop the war/trots and unwashed 2. Islington luvvies/JK rowling/transgender bathrooms/this is what a feminist looks like 3. Northern WWC remnant who aren't terribly nation minded 4. Atom sized Scottish remnant 5. Public sector client vote 6. EU loving bit 7. EU hating bit 8. Terrorist loving bit 9. Terrorist hating bit 10. Blairites 11. Brownites 12. Gobshites 13. Free owl tendency 14. etc
Out of interest, where would you place us PB Labourites in that classification?
Different categories for different PB lefties. You I'd place in the Watermelon group.
Thanks Patrick. I guess some others would try and stick me down as a No.7
Is there such a thing as a reverse-watermellon?
You mean a greenie at heart but who presents themselves as a commie? That's not really you is it? You seem to me to be a well intentioned soft lefty with a strong eco passion - but alot more sensible than many on matters EU. So a slightly unusual combination!
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
Well we've had leaderships that ignore the plebs since Maggie was PM. The establishment has been cooking things to its own liking for 30 years or more, 40 on matters European. June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
Hmmm. IMHO June 23rd, it seems to me, was a moment that many peoples efforts and much hard work, often under the radar, was thrown away, without any serious alternative. There was a guy from Felixstowe docks on BBC East last night remarking that unless we get a Free Trade Area, a large number of people are going to need to be employed, and a large amount of space made available, for Customs. Gave viewers to understand that it would be difficult. Then there are joint enterprises like the European Medicines Agency, which we are apparently leaving, and which employs a large number of British medicines scientists, which leaving may mean a delay in introdcing new medicines to the NHS.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
That's very true, and the disturbing thing is that we don't look to be getting that leadership- from any party, anytime soon.
I'd take issue with the idea that we are more divided now than we have been in the recent past. All that has happened is that people who have become used to being on the "winning side" and being part of the ruling consensus have been upset to discover that when they were given a chance the majority of people who voted didn't agree with them.
That was the point I was trying to make. Brexit gets blamed for dividing the country, but I think the division was always there. Brexit just made it tangible.
I wonder if in 30 years time some current British Islamic extremists who condone 7/7, Lee Rigby, joining ISIS will be statesman in the House of Commons/visiting Buck House while still arguing for Sharia Law
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
That's very true, and the disturbing thing is that we don't look to be getting that leadership- from any party, anytime soon.
I'd take issue with the idea that we are more divided now than we have been in the recent past. All that has happened is that people who have become used to being on the "winning side" and being part of the ruling consensus have been upset to discover that when they were given a chance the majority of people who voted didn't agree with them.
That was the point I was trying to make. Brexit gets blamed for dividing the country, but I think the division was always there. Brexit just made it tangible.
You have the illness before the doctor diagnoses it
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
That's very true, and the disturbing thing is that we don't look to be getting that leadership- from any party, anytime soon.
I'd take issue with the idea that we are more divided now than we have been in the recent past. All that has happened is that people who have become used to being on the "winning side" and being part of the ruling consensus have been upset to discover that when they were given a chance the majority of people who voted didn't agree with them.
That was the point I was trying to make. Brexit gets blamed for dividing the country, but I think the division was always there. Brexit just made it tangible.
All that has happened is that people who have become used to being on the "winning side" and being part of the ruling consensus have been upset to discover that when they were given a chance the majority of people who voted didn't agree with them.
Totally agree, and at times I don't even think it's Brexit that bothers them, rather that the "others" finally landed a punch.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
There is an argument that thresholds are a good idea for such monumental decisions. Some countries have them, some don't. Unfortunately we never agreed to that beforehand, or on other votes, so its hard for us to have them in future.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
You ignore the fsct that we ended up at at 52/48 despite the entire apparatus of the state being thrown at Remain, Project Fear and all. Many Remain voters are pretty Eurosceptic but didn't want the hassle of leaving. I imagine it was closer to 60/40 or more before the campaign. There is a vanishingly small number of hard core EU federalists in the UK. 68% now just want us to get on with it.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Yeah, we probably did, but them's the rules. I'm not sure how it could have been done any other way.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Or if it had been 52/48 Remain!!
That would be a marginally better result from my point of view but still a bad result.
Mrs C, the same would apply in reverse. The alternatives would be having the minority determining the decision, or a re-run if the winning margin was deemed to small (but what if there's another tight result?).
Also, 60/40 was my long term prediction for Remain's victory. A 70/30 or 60/40 Leave victory was never on the cards.
King Cole, there are going to be difficulties disentangling ourselves from Brussels' tentacles. That in itself is an argument to get out now, whilst we still can. The only long term options are to believe in a nation-state called the EU, or to believe in a nation-state called the UK. I prefer the UK, though I accept others feel differently.
I still believe the EU will collapse during my lifetime [assuming I don't pop my clogs prematurely] and we'll see mass civil disorder, and perhaps a small war. Better to be outside the edifice when it crumbles.
Britain is now said to be divided- and the union at risk. It's class vs class, rich vs poor, north vs south, elite vs plebs, London vs everywhere else, England vs Scotland- and all because of Brexit. Surely, these divisions were always there, but just bubbling under the surface? They were always going to blow up at some point weren't they? Things were only going to get worse. A lot of the population were not well served by the current system, and the EU is a big part of that. Maybe Brexit has just hastened the inevitable fissure that was forming in the country. It's going to be a tough time, but it was always going to happen in some form anyway.
Yep - that's is fair comment. We are a country that is horribly split - perhaps to the point where quite soon we will no longer be the country we are currently. What we need is leadership that recognises the need for reconciliation and collaboration. Sadly, we do not have it.
Well we've had leaderships that ignore the plebs since Maggie was PM. The establishment has been cooking things to its own liking for 30 years or more, 40 on matters European. June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
The idea that the current Tory leadership is interested in the plebs is a little far-fetched, to say the least. The establishment is still in charge.
You have taken my comment totally the wrong way and demonstrated my point. We are a country that is horribly split.
Some might ask when the last time any government was interested in the plebs. People have noticed the country is split because the referendum shoved it in their faces, it was probably split for at least a decade before that, but our electoral system provided a smokescreen for the fact all the realistic options were the same
Yes, I agree; just as I agreed with the original point. We are split, we have been for a long time and there is no sign of that changing.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Or if it had been 52/48 Remain!!
Does anyone seriolusly believe that if it had been 52/48 Remain Farage and co would not have stomping round the country shouting "one more heave’?
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Or if it had been 52/48 Remain!!
Does anyone seriolusly believe that if it had been 52/48 Remain Farage and co would not have stomping round the country shouting "one more heave’?
UKIP would have gangbusters under their polling right now. I think they'd be above 20% for sure.
Does anyone really think that Vladimir Putin was unhappy about Brexit? Or is it just that they are annoyed that other people noticed that it enormously helps Russia's foreign policy aims?
Does anyone think Putin would be unhappy about Scottish independence?
But it's noteworthy that Britain's Putin-fanboys are found almost exclusively on the unhinged Brexit right.
King Cole, I agree, but, speaking for myself, I would've opposed a second referendum until either decades had passed or a genuine and substantial change occurred.
Bleating instantly for a second vote would've been to show contempt for the electorate rather than just accepting their decision.
Mr. Observer, we were split before. The difference is that the best the plebs could do was lambast Mary Beard on Question Time for not understanding the real concerns of people in Grimsby at mass migration [only use that example because it stuck in my mind for some reason].
Incidentally, if we hadn't had a vote (and the referendum was entirely voluntary) this would not have gone away. UKIP or a comparable new party would've gained ever increasing popularity, but doing so takes a long time under our system. In the interim, the political and media class would've embedded us ever deeper in the EU and bitterness would have still grown.
This is an opportunity to lance the boil. Once we're out, the nation can unite, and pull together.
I'm not saying that *will* happen, only that it can. But it requires people to accept the result, and that other people have very different views about the country, but that's a feature, not a bug, of democracy.
Millions of plebs voted to Remain. Millions who voted Leave may end up feeling betrayed if the swivel-eyed right gets the cliff-edge departure it so craves. We need leadership that values conciliation and collaboration to take us forward. We don't have it.
Mrs C, the same would apply in reverse. The alternatives would be having the minority determining the decision, or a re-run if the winning margin was deemed to small (but what if there's another tight result?).
Also, 60/40 was my long term prediction for Remain's victory. A 70/30 or 60/40 Leave victory was never on the cards.
King Cole, there are going to be difficulties disentangling ourselves from Brussels' tentacles. That in itself is an argument to get out now, whilst we still can. The only long term options are to believe in a nation-state called the EU, or to believe in a nation-state called the UK. I prefer the UK, though I accept others feel differently.
I still believe the EU will collapse during my lifetime [assuming I don't pop my clogs prematurely] and we'll see mass civil disorder, and perhaps a small war. Better to be outside the edifice when it crumbles.
Mr D, with respect, I don’t feel that the European agencies and joint projects to which we signed up over the past 40 years van reasonably be described as ‘tentacles” Granted that the CAP is a mess, but many, if not most of them have worked well.
I see "Putin fan-boys" have become more Meeksian bogeymen.
Putin is an unpleasant & corrupt thug (much the same as any previous leader of Russia, except possibly Gorby).
But, Russia has a legitimate claim on the Crimea, & a plebiscite would result in an absolutely overwhelming Russian mandate.
The present borders of the Ukraine need re-drawing. This is actually in the Ukraine's interests, and a slightly more sensible policy from the West should be to encourage plebiscites in all the disputed territories.
The EU have as usual made a bad situation worse with their viscerally anti-Russian stance. They have encouraged the Ukraine to try and maintain an unstable situation in the East.
The net result will be, after years of insurgency & Civil War, the Ukraine will lose more territory than it would have lost if it had organised plebiscites and conceded those areas with a Russian majority now.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Or if it had been 52/48 Remain!!
Does anyone seriolusly believe that if it had been 52/48 Remain Farage and co would not have stomping round the country shouting "one more heave’?
Well... just look north of the border. The result was 55/45 which is a bigger margin than Brexit
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Or if it had been 52/48 Remain!!
Does anyone seriolusly believe that if it had been 52/48 Remain Farage and co would not have stomping round the country shouting "one more heave’?
Without doubt. That might have been a better result for UKIP in the end. The EU, and our government would have taken it as a green light for more EU, which would have energised the leave side, probably have lead to some proper UKIP MPs in the future (not floor crossers) and then maybe even a second referendum in the future with a more resounding leave vote. Or not. Who knows?
Mr. Observer, we were split before. The difference is that the best the plebs could do was lambast Mary Beard on Question Time for not understanding the real concerns of people in Grimsby at mass migration [only use that example because it stuck in my mind for some reason].
Incidentally, if we hadn't had a vote (and the referendum was entirely voluntary) this would not have gone away. UKIP or a comparable new party would've gained ever increasing popularity, but doing so takes a long time under our system. In the interim, the political and media class would've embedded us ever deeper in the EU and bitterness would have still grown.
This is an opportunity to lance the boil. Once we're out, the nation can unite, and pull together.
I'm not saying that *will* happen, only that it can. But it requires people to accept the result, and that other people have very different views about the country, but that's a feature, not a bug, of democracy.
Millions of plebs voted to Remain. Millions who voted Leave may end up feeling betrayed if the swivel-eyed right gets the cliff-edge departure it so craves. We need leadership that values conciliation and collaboration to take us forward. We don't have it.
Translation: We need to leave technically but not actually.
... June 23rd was a massive reconciliation moment. Your comment appears to be saying that the majority view is too awful and we need to find a way of once again ignoring it.
My problem with the "majority view" is that it is barely the majority view. If the result had been 60/40 or 70/30 for LEAVE then I would have an easier time accepting it.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Or if it had been 52/48 Remain!!
Does anyone seriolusly believe that if it had been 52/48 Remain Farage and co would not have stomping round the country shouting "one more heave’?
They would have been doing just that , but they wouldn't have had the ability to delay or influence the result once the verdict was in.
No one is saying that if a govt is elected w a manifesto for another ref they can't do it
Comments
The world is clearly a more dangerous place than it was a year ago. This is in no small part down to Brexit.
The next debate, this time among all the candidates, has been pencilled in by BFMTV and CNews for 4 April.
BFMTV's headline, summarising press coverage, is fair: "A debate without any surprise or big mistake".
Brexit really wouldn't affect NATO. Effectively losing control of one end of the GIUK gap would.
In this universe, I don't see Russia's revanchism affecting Western Europe. Which is part of the issue. It's a more insidious but low key threat.
Do you see an independent UK becoming a military aggressor once free from the EU?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39337909
Maybe we'll see a rate rise. But I'm not holding my breath.
Lib Dems now in to 7.4 on Betfair.
I saw your post the other day mentioning you had been to Knottingley - I trust you covered both the route from Leeds and the route from Wakefield. Did you also do Castleford - Wakefield Kirkgate and Kirkgate to Leeds avoiding Castleford? What about Kirkgate to Doncaster via the back of Knottingley station on Grand Central?
https://youtu.be/ABhZQ_VRbsQ
The problem some have is that, for the first time in a long while, they're on the losing side. The media-political class are unused to that.
In the same way, had Clinton won the US would still be very divided, it's just that the divide would be papered over by the Democrat-leaning majority media there.
Now we have cretins calling for London to be a city state, because democracy is only valid when you're winning according to Lammy. It's especially idiotic that some are bewailing division and proposing more of it as the remedy.
Alex Salmond has appeared on RT a fair bit.
Lib Dems are around 7.
However, with infighting and Corbyn, and Galloway (either winning or peeling off Labour support) a shock, whilst still very much odds against, could happen.
https://order-order.com/2017/03/20/tories-lead-12-points-among-18-24-year-olds/
Old assumptions may nothold any longer. The political world is changing.
And I don't think you can start from 1969, soft hats, and cups of tea on the streets.
Since pretty much the Acts of Union, there was the desire to have an independent Ireland and some people believed that armed insurrection was eventually the only way that they could achieve it. So they rose up a hundred years ago and achieved part of their aims with the establishment of the IFS and then Ireland. But there remained a grievance that the six counties should be part of a united Ireland.
And that, love or hate it, is what the IRA existed to bring about. It was a legitimate political aim. Defeated in the end one way or the other.
Mr. Observer, once we leave, I have hopes the nation will reunite. We're certainly no more split than we were in the 17th century, or France in the 12th, or the Eastern Empire in the 13th, or the Western Empire in the 3rd.
Edited extra bit: Mr. F, it certainly seems that way. The idea people with unapproved opinions could win a vote has driven a small but vocal number of people stark raving mad.
It's smaller than the number who watched the Dupont-Aignan walkout on Facebook too. Four minutes is easier to take than 3.5 hours.
Yes I did the entire triangle Woodlesford/Castleford/Normanton! And did both Knottingley routes. And two weeks ago I did the Grand Central train from Doncaster to Bradford via Pontefract (technically also Knottingley, though the platforms are on the infrequent route to Goole), Kirkgate, Mirfield and Halifax! That day, I started off in Manchester and changed at Doncaster just in time time to catch the Grand Central!
Jeremy Corbyn MPVerified account @jeremycorbyn
Martin McGuinness played a huge role in bringing about peace in Northern Ireland. He was a great family man and my thoughts are with them
You have taken my comment totally the wrong way and demonstrated my point. We are a country that is horribly split.
Is there such a thing as a reverse-watermellon?
Incidentally, if we hadn't had a vote (and the referendum was entirely voluntary) this would not have gone away. UKIP or a comparable new party would've gained ever increasing popularity, but doing so takes a long time under our system. In the interim, the political and media class would've embedded us ever deeper in the EU and bitterness would have still grown.
This is an opportunity to lance the boil. Once we're out, the nation can unite, and pull together.
I'm not saying that *will* happen, only that it can. But it requires people to accept the result, and that other people have very different views about the country, but that's a feature, not a bug, of democracy.
"So Martin McGuinness has died. Already this is giving vent to the sort of ‘How McGuinness became a man of peace’ stories. Personally I have always thought the salient point about the man is not that he became a man of peace but that he was ever a man of violence.
Over recent years a narrative has developed around the Troubles, that the people who ‘became men of peace’ are much to be admired. This narrative overlooks the fact that the real people to be admired are those from all sides who – despite sharing many or all of the same grievances as the ‘men of violence’ – never thought the answer to their grievances lay in pulling out the finger-nails of people on the other side of the sectarian divide, planting bombs in shops or shooting farmers in the head...
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/03/least-martin-mcguinness-made-old-age-many-others-didnt-2/
He offered me a choice of Vodka or polonium.
I chose the vodka.
For your next challenge: Doncaster to York via Knottingley (the last Kings Cross - Newcastle of the day goes this way)
There was a guy from Felixstowe docks on BBC East last night remarking that unless we get a Free Trade Area, a large number of people are going to need to be employed, and a large amount of space made available, for Customs. Gave viewers to understand that it would be difficult.
Then there are joint enterprises like the European Medicines Agency, which we are apparently leaving, and which employs a large number of British medicines scientists, which leaving may mean a delay in introdcing new medicines to the NHS.
Edited for clumsy English.
52/48 is virtually half 'n' half. I feel like we decided on a rash course of action on the toss of a coin.
Also, 60/40 was my long term prediction for Remain's victory. A 70/30 or 60/40 Leave victory was never on the cards.
King Cole, there are going to be difficulties disentangling ourselves from Brussels' tentacles. That in itself is an argument to get out now, whilst we still can. The only long term options are to believe in a nation-state called the EU, or to believe in a nation-state called the UK. I prefer the UK, though I accept others feel differently.
I still believe the EU will collapse during my lifetime [assuming I don't pop my clogs prematurely] and we'll see mass civil disorder, and perhaps a small war. Better to be outside the edifice when it crumbles.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15167347.SNP_politicians_appear_50_times_on_Kremlin_channels/
Bleating instantly for a second vote would've been to show contempt for the electorate rather than just accepting their decision.
Putin is an unpleasant & corrupt thug (much the same as any previous leader of Russia, except possibly Gorby).
But, Russia has a legitimate claim on the Crimea, & a plebiscite would result in an absolutely overwhelming Russian mandate.
The present borders of the Ukraine need re-drawing. This is actually in the Ukraine's interests, and a slightly more sensible policy from the West should be to encourage plebiscites in all the disputed territories.
The EU have as usual made a bad situation worse with their viscerally anti-Russian stance. They have encouraged the Ukraine to try and maintain an unstable situation in the East.
The net result will be, after years of insurgency & Civil War, the Ukraine will lose more territory than it would have lost if it had organised plebiscites and conceded those areas with a Russian majority now.
No one is saying that if a govt is elected w a manifesto for another ref they can't do it
Tories 37
Labour 28
UKIP 20
Lib Dems 7
SNP & PC 4
Greens 2
Others 2
is my estimate of where we'd be at the moment if there had been a "Remain" vote.
King Cole, they shouldn't be wrapped up into the EU at all. It's the mindset of bureaucratic empire-building.