I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
There are several possible answers. One is that nobody seriously believes Wales could survive without help from England whereas Scotland clearly could (although it would be hard). Another is that in no part of Wales are you very far from England and that does alter the national dynamic - Bangor is far closer to Chester than to Cardiff. In Scotland by contrast almost all traffic to England is through Edinburgh and Glasgow. Another is that language has always been the key driver of Welshness - although there are many dialects, there are not four distinct languages as there were in Scotland. Languages do not require indexed dead countries to survive. A further point is that Wales was unambiguously conquered - a very long time ago, at that - whereas Scots have always convinced themselves, not entirely accurately, that they were a fully sovereign state swindled out of their rights by the Darien scheme and English bribes. Yet a further point is that 'Wales' was only a united country three times in the past - 1055-1063, 1257-1277, and 1404-1409. At all other times it has been a loose agglomeration of petty lordships mostly held by the English. Scotland was a recognised if hardly a united kingdom for 800 years before 1707.
But don't assume the Welsh are not antagonistic towards England. Some of them can be really quite unpleasant when they put their minds to it, and I say that as a Welshman.
Thanks. You make a lot of good points about the history. You are right about the unity of Wales having less historic resonance, and of course there was a great deal of Welsh involvement in the history of England.
Still it's interesting that devolution worked (from a Labour Party perspective) in Wales to a large degree, but has been a total disaster from the same perspective in Scotland.
It does not have anything like the nationalistic pride of Scotland though if you put a Welsh rugby shirt on, they have.
Certainly in a sporting context there seems to be more of a friendly rivalry between Wales and England, rather than some real animosity that is the case with Scotland and England. I find it interesting that the nationalism in the two nations has developed quite differently.
Ask Sam Warburton about the friendly rivalry between Wales and England in rugby!
He's English I think; like Luke Charteris and George North. And Henry Pygos and Jim Hamilton, who play for Scotland.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
There are several possible answers. One is that nobody seriously believes Wales could survive without help from England whereas Scotland clearly could (although it would be hard). Another is that in no part of Wales are you very far from England and that does alter the national dynamic - Bangor is far closer to Chester than to Cardiff. In Scotland by contrast almost all traffic to England is through Edinburgh and Glasgow. Another is that language has always been the key driver of Welshness - although there are many dialects, there are not four distinct languages as there were in Scotland. Languages do not require indexed dead countries to survive. A further point is that Wales was unambiguously conquered - a very long time ago, at that - whereas Scots have always convinced themselves, not entirely accurately, that they were a fully sovereign state swindled out of their rights by the Darien scheme and English bribes. Yet a further point is that 'Wales' was only a united country three times in the past - 1055-1063, 1257-1277, and 1404-1409. At all other times it has been a loose agglomeration of petty lordships mostly held by the English. Scotland was a recognised if hardly a united kingdom for 800 years before 1707.
But don't assume the Welsh are not antagonistic towards England. Some of them can be really quite unpleasant when they put their minds to it, and I say that as a Welshman.
Thanks. You make a lot of good points about the history. You are right about the unity of Wales having less historic resonance, and of course there was a great deal of Welsh involvement in the history of England.
Still it's interesting that devolution worked (from a Labour Party perspective) in Wales to a large degree, but has been a total disaster from the same perspective in Scotland.
It does not have anything like the nationalistic pride of Scotland though if you put a Welsh rugby shirt on, they have.
Certainly in a sporting context there seems to be more of a friendly rivalry between Wales and England, rather than some real animosity that is the case with Scotland and England. I find it interesting that the nationalism in the two nations has developed quite differently.
Ask Sam Warburton about the friendly rivalry between Wales and England in rugby!
He's English I think; like Luke Charteris and George North. And Henry Pygos and Jim Hamilton, who play for Scotland.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
South Wales is basically an extension of England. North Wales Is different.
It does not have anything like the nationalistic pride of Scotland though if you put a Welsh rugby shirt on, they have.
Certainly in a sporting context there seems to be more of a friendly rivalry between Wales and England, rather than some real animosity that is the case with Scotland and England. I find it interesting that the nationalism in the two nations has developed quite differently.
Ask Sam Warburton about the friendly rivalry between Wales and England in rugby!
When I said friendly rivalry I wasn't implying they were plaiting daisies into one another's hair, but I do think there is a qualitative difference between Welsh versus English and Scottish versus English rivalries.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
South Wales is basically an extension of England. North Wales Is different.
the body of evidence says the SNP have stated they want to stay in the EU, they make the point about the remain vote repeatedly
believe what your party tells you, but no-one else does, this is a shift in position and it ill be taken to task
You do get the Iain Martin article was written about Monday's press conference. Not some magical event that has happened today?
So for you to seize on it as some dramatic shift from Monday to Today is weird.
Looks a very smart move to me. EEA membership allows Scotland to remain in two single markets, so it kills one of the big arguments the No side has.
Unfortunately that is not true. Were Scotland in the EEA and the rest of the rUK outside then Scotland could not be in a single market with the rUK. The best it could have would be a free trade agreement with the rUK but that would still require differentiation of all goods entering Scotland from the rUK as they would not automatically be able to be traded within the rest of the EEA outside of Scotland. A single market arrangement would be impractical.
Fair enough. But, crucially, no need for a hard border; so a much better option than full EU membership.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
South Wales is basically an extension of England. North Wales Is different.
If this is accurate, then it makes the proposed referendum even more ludicrous. If the SNP don't even want to be in the EU (necessarily), why then would leaving it be considered just cause for Referendum 2: Refer Harder?
The half-hearted Indyref Mark 2 offensive has already collapsed in on itself and ground to a halt. A debacle.
Yes it has. May didn't even say she doesn't want ACCESS to the single market.
Is this the first big mistake by Nicola
Yes it is, it will take a bit of time for the media to realise but they will be hammered on this. This sounds to me like she is not sure she wants a ref yet.
and Alistar can say this was always her position but the nuance will be missed by most. people simply read the SNP position is of staying in the E.U. otherwise why call for a second Referundum before Brexit negotiations have started. Yesterday I thought thats it the union is over now.......there is still a chance it survives depening on how hard Brexit is.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
It does not have anything like the nationalistic pride of Scotland though if you put a Welsh rugby shirt on, they have. Wales is trending right and there is no possibility that it will seek independence. And I have lived in both Countries so I do have experience of the nationalism question in both
Yet, c.1900 Welsh nationalism was a real force in the Liberal Party.
And of course in the 60s and 70s many of the Welsh were much more antagonistic toward the English than Scots were (remember the very nasty arson attacks on houses owned by English people). Since then the Welsh seem to have become less anti-English, but Scots much more so.
It wasn't anti-English antagonism, so much as a desire to preserve a dwindling number of cohesive Welsh-speaking communities from cultural collapse. English speakers need never worry about their language disappearing, though an English person who has seen their fish & chip shop replaced by a Polish supermarket might belatedly understand what the issue was.
If Farage wins Thanet, would he and Carswell have to sit with each other in parliament or can they sit where they like?
They can sit where they like, except on the front benches. By custom, non-Government members sit on the right, but in theory they can plonk themselves down anywhere. They don't need to sit together if they don't want to - never noticed e.g. Dennis Skinner and Tony Blair nestling up to each other.
Political nationalism is much more important to the Scots because they don't have their own language, and therefore culturally they feel insecure. This is not the case in Wales.
Spain provides a perfect parallel; the region with the most widely spoken minority language (Galicia) is happy to give its votes to the centralist Partido Popular, whereas the Basque Country and Catalonia vote for nationalists despite less than half of their people using 'their' languages.
Well apart from the currency, the size of Scotland's deficit, its contributions to the EU, any monies it might receive from the EU, the fishing rights, its border with rUK and any special arrangements there, Schengen, whether any of the opt outs that the UK has achieved would still be applicable etc etc I am sure that is right.
It does not have anything like the nationalistic pride of Scotland though if you put a Welsh rugby shirt on, they have.
Certainly in a sporting context there seems to be more of a friendly rivalry between Wales and England, rather than some real animosity that is the case with Scotland and England. I find it interesting that the nationalism in the two nations has developed quite differently.
Ask Sam Warburton about the friendly rivalry between Wales and England in rugby!
He's English I think; like Luke Charteris and George North. And Henry Pygos and Jim Hamilton, who play for Scotland.
He was born in England, but he isn't English.
Sam Warburton was born in Cardiff and attended Whitchurch high school at the same time as Gareth Bale.
the body of evidence says the SNP have stated they want to stay in the EU, they make the point about the remain vote repeatedly
believe what your party tells you, but no-one else does, this is a shift in position and it ill be taken to task
You do get the Iain Martin article was written about Monday's press conference. Not some magical event that has happened today?
So for you to seize on it as some dramatic shift from Monday to Today is weird.
Looks a very smart move to me. EEA membership allows Scotland to remain in two single markets, so it kills one of the big arguments the No side has.
Unfortunately that is not true. Were Scotland in the EEA and the rest of the rUK outside then Scotland could not be in a single market with the rUK. The best it could have would be a free trade agreement with the rUK but that would still require differentiation of all goods entering Scotland from the rUK as they would not automatically be able to be traded within the rest of the EEA outside of Scotland. A single market arrangement would be impractical.
Fair enough. But, crucially, no need for a hard border; so a much better option than full EU membership.
Not quite sure how you can say no hard border. If there is a Single Market on one side and a FTA specifically between Scotland and rUK on the other there has to be control of all goods moving across that border to ensure goods do not pass through from outside the Single Market without the proper tariffs being paid. I don't see how this can happen without customs controls at the border. This is what happens with the other non EU EEA members.
The easiest solution is for the whole UK or its constituent parts to join the EEA irrespective of whether Scotland is independent or not. that way it is one issue that is removed from the table.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
"One of the most influential voices in Europe Elmar Brok MEP"
Since when has an MEP been influential? - What do the European Commissioners say?
Yeah, I have to admit, while I happen to think Scotland would not find it hugely difficult to reenter the EU (though it might still be a few years even so), and accept there are important people I will not have even heard of, it stretches the credibility somewhat, given the number of high profile persons who would be more intimately involved than an MEP, no matter how significant an MEP, that he could possibly be 'one of the most influential in Europe'.
The prospect of Scotland voting to become independent is just to complete the full circle of a journey. We only joined the Union because we were nearly bankrupted due to some mis-guided investments in Central America (The Darien scheme) and now it looks like we will leave only to become near bankrupt again...
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Wales has shared a monarch with England since the 13th century and has been formally united with England and shared a Parliament since the 16th century, Scotland has only shared a monarch with England since the 17th century and a Parliament since the 18th century and Ireland only joined the Union in the 19th century and Northern Ireland only in the 20th century after the Republic left
Meanwhile, in important footballing news (sorry, Dr Fox), Wimbledon have beaten the Milton Keynes franchise scum 2-0. Not in the wider interests of football, though, apparently.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
My feeling is that the Welsh understand their situation/size etc, whilst the Scots see themselves as something much more than they are in reality.
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK. It is the tenth of the population of England and less than that in terms of GDP.
If the referendum does go their way then they will soon discover their true relative stature when they first negotiate with the RUK and then with the EU.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK.
Isn't that their point, that they are not equal partners and never will be so need to be independent?
Personally I think the purpose of the Union should be for each constituent nation to enhance the others, culturally, politically, economically or whatever. Presumably the equal status issue is one reason for suggestions of a federal UK set up wherein there is an upper house with equal numbers from each of the home nations to try to alleviate concerns of English dominance.
Tories have a working majority of 17. There is a simple solution to boost that, support Scottish independence. By my maths that would boost the Tory working majority to 74. That's before any boundary reforms or a potential Corbyn general election.
Why would the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' support the breakup of the Union?
It doesn't. Doesn't change the fact that Scotland leaving would leave the Conservative and Unionist Party a great inheritance.
An exaggerated one, Attlee in 1945 and 1950, Wilson in 1966 and October 1974 and Blair in 1997, 2001 and 2005 would all have won a majority or led the largest party even without Scottish votes and of course an independent Scotland means Labour no longer need fear the Tories playing the card that they are in the SNP's pocket, not to mention in 2015 Labour got a significantly higher voteshare in England and Wales than it did in Scotland for the first time
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
The language is a unifying issue among those who speak it, but a divisive one vis-a-vis those who don't. Welsh speakers (+/- 20%) have no hope of political supremacy - their limited objective is cultural survival in a bilingual society. Plaid Cymru tries (with limited success) to distance itself from the language issue in the hope of appealing to English speakers. The Welsh are not particularly antagonistic towards the English, although they will occasionally forget to switch to Anglo-saxon when in the presence of the master race.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK.
Isn't that their point, that they are not equal partners and never will be so need to be independent?
Personally I think the purpose of the Union should be for each constituent nation to enhance the others, culturally, politically, economically or whatever. Presumably the equal status issue is one reason for suggestions of a federal UK set up wherein there is an upper house with equal numbers from each of the home nations to try to alleviate concerns of English dominance.
Exactly, it works for California and Wyoming in the US
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK.
Isn't that their point, that they are not equal partners and never will be so need to be independent?
Yeah, I can understand that... so why would they want to be 5 million in a union of 445 million (the EU without England, Wales & Northern Ireland) but not in a union of 65 million?
Scotland as a member state of a federal EU is going to be a much less equal partner than a constituent nation in a highly devolved/federal UK.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK.
Isn't that their point, that they are not equal partners and never will be so need to be independent?
Yeah, I can understand that... so why would they want to be 5 million in a union of 445 million (the EU without England, Wales & Northern Ireland) but not in a union of 65 million?
Scotland as a member state of a federal EU is going to be a much less equal partner than a constituent nation in a highly devolved/federal UK.
For a very simple reason. The EU is a confederation whose members are sovereign and the UK is not a federation will never become one by choice.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK.
Isn't that their point, that they are not equal partners and never will be so need to be independent?
Yeah, I can understand that... so why would they want to be 5 million in a union of 445 million (the EU without England, Wales & Northern Ireland) but not in a union of 65 million?
Scotland as a member state of a federal EU is going to be a much less equal partner than a constituent nation in a highly devolved/federal UK.
I would agree - unhappily, 45% at least, possibly more, despite the long connection with the rest of Britain and its union, seem to feel more a connection with the EU than the rest of us.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK.
Isn't that their point, that they are not equal partners and never will be so need to be independent?
Yeah, I can understand that... so why would they want to be 5 million in a union of 445 million (the EU without England, Wales & Northern Ireland) but not in a union of 65 million?
Scotland as a member state of a federal EU is going to be a much less equal partner than a constituent nation in a highly devolved/federal UK.
I would agree - unhappily, 45% at least, possibly more, despite the long connection with the rest of Britain and its union, seem to feel more a connection with the EU than the rest of us.
So Brexit does mean Brexit (ie British exit from the EU) even if part of Britain leaves, er, Britain.
The EFTA (ie a Norway-EU relationship) model would work well for Scotland, and I think a UK of England, Wales & NI would be happy with that too as we could easily keep a currency and free travel (outwith Schengen) arrangement across GB.
It does not have anything like the nationalistic pride of Scotland though if you put a Welsh rugby shirt on, they have.
Certainly in a sporting context there seems to be more of a friendly rivalry between Wales and England, rather than some real animosity that is the case with Scotland and England. I find it interesting that the nationalism in the two nations has developed quite differently.
Ask Sam Warburton about the friendly rivalry between Wales and England in rugby!
He's English I think; like Luke Charteris and George North. And Henry Pygos and Jim Hamilton, who play for Scotland.
He was born in England, but he isn't English.
Sam Warburton was born in Cardiff and attended Whitchurch high school at the same time as Gareth Bale.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK.
Isn't that their point, that they are not equal partners and never will be so need to be independent?
Yeah, I can understand that... so why would they want to be 5 million in a union of 445 million (the EU without England, Wales & Northern Ireland) but not in a union of 65 million?
Scotland as a member state of a federal EU is going to be a much less equal partner than a constituent nation in a highly devolved/federal UK.
For a very simple reason. The EU is a confederation whose members are sovereign and the UK is not a federation will never become one by choice.
The EU won't be a confederation for ever though - it is clearly heading for federation.
If you want an independent Scotland... top tip: don't leave one political union to then join an even larger, more remotely-governed one!
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK.
Isn't that their point, that they are not equal partners and never will be so need to be independent?
Yeah, I can understand that... so why would they want to be 5 million in a union of 445 million (the EU without England, Wales & Northern Ireland) but not in a union of 65 million?
Scotland as a member state of a federal EU is going to be a much less equal partner than a constituent nation in a highly devolved/federal UK.
I think that by the time we come the vote the SNP will not be promising to become a member of the EU but rather they would want access to the single market only. This is part to keep the 1/3 of Yes voters who voted leave onside. It is difficult to see how the nationalists will be able to give 100% clarity on what the exact relationship Scotland will have the EU until after the Brexit negotiations have finished. So it might be easier for them give clearer answers if the vote happens after the summer of 2019.
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
My take is that the Welsh Nationalist movement (Plaid Cymru) polls very well in Welsh-Speaking areas but the 80% of non-Welsh speakers mistrust the fact that if Plaid governed Wales Welsh Speakers would get preferential treatment. In short the language issue is an albatross around the necks of the Nats in Wales. It's certainly not that the Welsh have much more love for the English than the Scots or the Irish!
My feeling is that the Welsh understand their situation/size etc, whilst the Scots see themselves as something much more than they are in reality.
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK. It is the tenth of the population of England and less than that in terms of GDP.
Sorry, who goes on about it?
Darling: 'Today we are equal partners in the United Kingdom.' Davidson: 'The overwhelming majority of Scots believe in the United Kingdom and want to remain part of this 300-year-long equal partnership of prosperity, security, and pride.' Lamont: 'It is a union of equals and partnership: not a contractual union or marriage of convenience.' May: 'A future in which Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England continue to flourish side-by-side as equal partners.'
The EU won't be a confederation for ever though - it is clearly heading for federation.
If you want an independent Scotland... top tip: don't leave one political union to then join an even larger, more remotely-governed one!
But no-one except certifiable loons thinks that the EU will ever become a unitary state. A federation is already constitutionally superior to Scotland's current position in the UK.
New YouGov Scottish Independence poll for The Times
Yes to Independence 43% (-2)
No to Independence 57% (+2)
Changes since Nov 2016
Well if that were the result and May successfully completes Brexit she would go down in history as the PM who took the UK out of the EU and ended Scottish independence hopes for a generation if not for good, while Sturgeon would be toast. However a long way to go yet
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
Because the idea of an independent Wales as a going financial concern is a non-starter? It's Scotland without whisky or oil and with one quarter of the international tourist income. ("London accounts for 54% of all inbound visitor spend, the rest of England 34%, Scotland 8% and Wales 2%" https://www.visitbritain.org/visitor-economy-facts)
I think the shared legal system is important; the Act of Union looks a bit half-hearted because it preserves the Scottish legal system - greedy 18th century Edinburgh lawyers protecting their turf.
And there were 228 arson attacks in Wales starting in 1979 and going on through the eighties, aimed at English second homes, so there's been a fair bit of antagonism in the past.
Looks like that disastrous budget has... oh hang on.
The worst week since May took over, and the Tories are down to a 17 point lead. If this keeps up they might not get a three figure majority in 2020.
Well, we will easily get a three-digit majority if Scotland leaves and boundary changes go through... let's see 600 minus 53 Scottish seats minus a load Sein Fein won't take up... about 540 seats in total... only need 270 for a majority!
I used to be a member of Plaid Cymru saw what is going on now with Sturgeon at first hand.
Good post.
I have a serious question. Why does Wales, with at least as much nationalistic pride as Scotland, seem less antagonistic towards England? Is it simply that England and Wales have more common history, or is there something fundamentally different between Welsh nationalism and Scottish nationalism?
Because the idea of an independent Wales as a going financial concern is a non-starter? It's Scotland without whisky or oil and with one quarter of the international tourist income. ("London accounts for 54% of all inbound visitor spend, the rest of England 34%, Scotland 8% and Wales 2%" https://www.visitbritain.org/visitor-economy-facts)
I think the shared legal system is important; the Act of Union looks a bit half-hearted because it preserves the Scottish legal system - greedy 18th century Edinburgh lawyers protecting their turf.
And there were 228 arson attacks in Wales starting in 1979 and going on through the eighties, aimed at English second homes, so there's been a fair bit of antagonism in the past.
Comments
Still it's interesting that devolution worked (from a Labour Party perspective) in Wales to a large degree, but has been a total disaster from the same perspective in Scotland.
More Englishmen in Wales side than you think. George defo an Englishman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_devolution_referendum,_1997#/media/File:Welsh_devolution_referendum,_1997.svg
and Alistar can say this was always her position but the nuance will be missed by most. people simply read the SNP position is of staying in the E.U. otherwise why call for a second Referundum before Brexit negotiations have started. Yesterday I thought thats it the union is over now.......there is still a chance it survives depening on how hard Brexit is.
Since when has an MEP been influencial? - What do the European Commissioners say?
Spain provides a perfect parallel; the region with the most widely spoken minority language (Galicia) is happy to give its votes to the centralist Partido Popular, whereas the Basque Country and Catalonia vote for nationalists despite less than half of their people using 'their' languages.
https://twitter.com/J_amesp/status/841757814892707840
I think fucknugget may have been generous.
Edit. Wow. Just wow.
The easiest solution is for the whole UK or its constituent parts to join the EEA irrespective of whether Scotland is independent or not. that way it is one issue that is removed from the table.
...I'm wearing my coat.
Didn't realise the SNP were capable of time travel.
We only joined the Union because we were nearly bankrupted due to some mis-guided investments in Central America (The Darien scheme) and now it looks like we will leave only to become near bankrupt again...
Every time I hear the SNP going on about Scotland being "an equal partner" I just laugh in pity. Scotland is not equal to England / the RUK. It is the tenth of the population of England and less than that in terms of GDP.
If the referendum does go their way then they will soon discover their true relative stature when they first negotiate with the RUK and then with the EU.
Personally I think the purpose of the Union should be for each constituent nation to enhance the others, culturally, politically, economically or whatever. Presumably the equal status issue is one reason for suggestions of a federal UK set up wherein there is an upper house with equal numbers from each of the home nations to try to alleviate concerns of English dominance.
Scotland as a member state of a federal EU is going to be a much less equal partner than a constituent nation in a highly devolved/federal UK.
The EFTA (ie a Norway-EU relationship) model would work well for Scotland, and I think a UK of England, Wales & NI would be happy with that too as we could easily keep a currency and free travel (outwith Schengen) arrangement across GB.
If you want an independent Scotland... top tip: don't leave one political union to then join an even larger, more remotely-governed one!
Yes to Independence 43% (-2)
No to Independence 57% (+2)
Changes since Nov 2016
It is difficult to see how the nationalists will be able to give 100% clarity on what the exact relationship Scotland will have the EU until after the Brexit negotiations have finished. So it might be easier for them give clearer answers if the vote happens after the summer of 2019.
Darling: 'Today we are equal partners in the United Kingdom.'
Davidson: 'The overwhelming majority of Scots believe in the United Kingdom and want to remain part of this 300-year-long equal partnership of prosperity, security, and pride.'
Lamont: 'It is a union of equals and partnership: not a contractual union or marriage of convenience.'
May: 'A future in which Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England continue to flourish side-by-side as equal partners.'
So from last Thursday until today.
All together now, despite Brexit!
Sleazy broken UKIP on the slide...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSrNF6bCB5Q
Oh, wait...
:-)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/14/saudi-arabia-launches-first-girls-council-men-stage/
There is apparently one in the Mail as well. No numbers yet
I'm sure the Brexityoons will now be calling for May to bring it on.
Off the back of this gem of course...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXLW52xgQ