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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A grim set of local by-elections for Corbyn’s LAB losing a sea

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  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,787
    malcolmg said:

    Sturgeon - the poor woman's Gordon Brown?

    Paul Goodman:

    A few months after he became Prime Minister, Gordon Brown pondered an early general election. This was briefed about by members of his inner political circle who were keen on the idea, and wanted to create a sense of momentum by getting the idea reported. Their efforts were a triumph in one sense at least. Brown’s musings became public. They weren’t denied, and thus gathered pace. That sense of momentum grew. It began to look unstoppable. And by the time it was stopped, the damage had been done. The man who had been marketed in his first months in office as “not flash, just Gordon” looked more like what his dithering had shown him up as: what Alex Salmond called “the big fearty from Fife”.

    This tale from the past takes us to the present – and to Salmond’s successor, Nicola Sturgeon. This is because, in feeding speculation about a second referendum on Scottish independence, she is behaving eerily like Brown himself. The polls are not as benign for her now than they were for the former Prime Minister in the summer of 2007. They show no shift towards support for independence. Perhaps Sturgeon sniffs a change in the wind that others are missing. Maybe she is bowing to internal party pressure. But it looks more as though she cannot help but pursue the cause that has let her prosper – regardless of where public opinion in Scotland may be.


    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/03/brown-let-talk-of-a-general-election-run-out-of-control-is-sturgeon-doing-the-same-with-an-independence-referendum.html

    toom tabards like you will be eating humble pie
    Funny you should mention Humble Pie:

    Humble pie, please waiter. A large portion. No, just one spoon — the lady will be dining alone.
    Under pressure on her dismal schools record, the First Minister went full Salmond, sneering, guffawing, gesticulating. Now, Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale did cite facts about educational attainment under the SNP, which is just plain unsportsmanlike.

    Miss Sturgeon became infuriated, snapping at Miss Davidson to ‘get behind this government’s reforms instead of continuing to come to this chamber and simply moan’. She really struggles with this concept of opposition. Heading up a party that welcomes dissent in the same way the mafia welcomes unpaid debts, Miss Sturgeon is unfamiliar with other points of view.


    https://stephendaisley.com/2017/03/03/sturgeon-sneered-and-guffawed-just-like-her-predecessor/
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    The Football Association wants to test a video assistant referee system from the third round of next year's FA Cup.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39157887

    I will stop going to football if this comes in.
  • Options
    I got that Paddy Power totally missed the DUP problems. Wish I could have sold the 1/100 on people like Morrow. I think Richie transfers pull Lynch and Barton above him. Which will be a headline grabber. Morrow is DUP President.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,058
    malcolmg said:

    Read her lips: the devolution settlement is no more. Future is ever closer union UK style. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/ … pic.twitter.com/GOkUhrj6lM

    Mrs M doesn't seem to understand the first objective of a nationalist party.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    My guess on total seats is SF 29 DUP 28.

    thank you. Is that good/bad for either party?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Dixie said:

    My guess on total seats is SF 29 DUP 28.

    thank you. Is that good/bad for either party?
    Good for SF, bad for DUP.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. Glenn, surely Sarkozy isn't in the running? Or is Fillon just calling for advice?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,067

    malcolmg said:

    Sturgeon - the poor woman's Gordon Brown?

    Paul Goodman:

    A few months after he became Prime Minister, Gordon Brown pondered an early general election. This was briefed about by members of his inner political circle who were keen on the idea, and wanted to create a sense of momentum by getting the idea reported. Their efforts were a triumph in one sense at least. Brown’s musings became public. They weren’t denied, and thus gathered pace. That sense of momentum grew. It began to look unstoppable. And by the time it was stopped, the damage had been done. The man who had been marketed in his first months in office as “not flash, just Gordon” looked more like what his dithering had shown him up as: what Alex Salmond called “the big fearty from Fife”.

    This tale from the past takes us to the present – and to Salmond’s successor, Nicola Sturgeon. This is because, in feeding speculation about a second referendum on Scottish independence, she is behaving eerily like Brown himself. The polls are not as benign for her now than they were for the former Prime Minister in the summer of 2007. They show no shift towards support for independence. Perhaps Sturgeon sniffs a change in the wind that others are missing. Maybe she is bowing to internal party pressure. But it looks more as though she cannot help but pursue the cause that has let her prosper – regardless of where public opinion in Scotland may be.


    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/03/brown-let-talk-of-a-general-election-run-out-of-control-is-sturgeon-doing-the-same-with-an-independence-referendum.html

    toom tabards like you will be eating humble pie
    Funny you should mention Humble Pie:

    Humble pie, please waiter. A large portion. No, just one spoon — the lady will be dining alone.
    Under pressure on her dismal schools record, the First Minister went full Salmond, sneering, guffawing, gesticulating. Now, Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale did cite facts about educational attainment under the SNP, which is just plain unsportsmanlike.

    Miss Sturgeon became infuriated, snapping at Miss Davidson to ‘get behind this government’s reforms instead of continuing to come to this chamber and simply moan’. She really struggles with this concept of opposition. Heading up a party that welcomes dissent in the same way the mafia welcomes unpaid debts, Miss Sturgeon is unfamiliar with other points of view.


    https://stephendaisley.com/2017/03/03/sturgeon-sneered-and-guffawed-just-like-her-predecessor/
    Ha Ha Ha , Daisley , says it all he is a turnip. You looked at the English rags lately , having to pay as you learn in England, education crap , NHS crap..................LOL , next you will be telling me dugdale and Davidson came up with an idea
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    Mr. Glenn, surely Sarkozy isn't in the running? Or is Fillon just calling for advice?

    It seems Baroin is Sarkozy's man now.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,261

    malcolmg said:

    Sturgeon - the poor woman's Gordon Brown?

    Paul Goodman:

    A few months after he became Prime Minister, Gordon Brown pondered an early general election. This was briefed about by members of his inner political circle who were keen on the idea, and wanted to create a sense of momentum by getting the idea reported. Their efforts were a triumph in one sense at least. Brown’s musings became public. They weren’t denied, and thus gathered pace. That sense of momentum grew. It began to look unstoppable. And by the time it was stopped, the damage had been done. The man who had been marketed in his first months in office as “not flash, just Gordon” looked more like what his dithering had shown him up as: what Alex Salmond called “the big fearty from Fife”.

    This tale from the past takes us to the present – and to Salmond’s successor, Nicola Sturgeon. This is because, in feeding speculation about a second referendum on Scottish independence, she is behaving eerily like Brown himself. The polls are not as benign for her now than they were for the former Prime Minister in the summer of 2007. They show no shift towards support for independence. Perhaps Sturgeon sniffs a change in the wind that others are missing. Maybe she is bowing to internal party pressure. But it looks more as though she cannot help but pursue the cause that has let her prosper – regardless of where public opinion in Scotland may be.


    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/03/brown-let-talk-of-a-general-election-run-out-of-control-is-sturgeon-doing-the-same-with-an-independence-referendum.html

    toom tabards like you will be eating humble pie
    Funny you should mention Humble Pie:

    Humble pie, please waiter. A large portion. No, just one spoon — the lady will be dining alone.
    Under pressure on her dismal schools record, the First Minister went full Salmond, sneering, guffawing, gesticulating. Now, Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale did cite facts about educational attainment under the SNP, which is just plain unsportsmanlike.

    Miss Sturgeon became infuriated, snapping at Miss Davidson to ‘get behind this government’s reforms instead of continuing to come to this chamber and simply moan’. She really struggles with this concept of opposition. Heading up a party that welcomes dissent in the same way the mafia welcomes unpaid debts, Miss Sturgeon is unfamiliar with other points of view.


    https://stephendaisley.com/2017/03/03/sturgeon-sneered-and-guffawed-just-like-her-predecessor/
    Marvellous that Daisley now has the opportunity to sway all those Daily Mail readers away from the cause of indy.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    tlg86 said:

    The Football Association wants to test a video assistant referee system from the third round of next year's FA Cup.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39157887

    I will stop going to football if this comes in.
    Heaven forbid they should try to get right some of the decisions that are currently got wrong.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,800
    edited March 2017

    Mr. Glenn, surely Sarkozy isn't in the running? Or is Fillon just calling for advice?

    It seems Baroin is Sarkozy's man now.
    I don't know the details of the French system, but it seems that Juppe should be a little presumptuous in claiming he had the right as next in line. It may be that the party's rules state that he is.

    With all this nonsense Le Pen deserves to win.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    tlg86 said:

    The Football Association wants to test a video assistant referee system from the third round of next year's FA Cup.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39157887

    I will stop going to football if this comes in.
    Heaven forbid they should try to get right some of the decisions that are currently got wrong.
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I moan about refs as much as the next fan (though I'd like to think I call it as I see it). The problem is, how do you stop and restart the game? If the linesman keeps his flag down and an offside goal is scored, then that can be corrected. But if the linesman calls offside incorrectly, what do you do?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Dixie said:

    My guess on total seats is SF 29 DUP 28.

    thank you. Is that good/bad for either party?
    DUP were 1-5 or shorter to be most seats, so dire for the DUP.
  • Options
    CornishBlueCornishBlue Posts: 840
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sample of the wonders at Tory conference, Fallon: "Because of terrorism on our streets, we need nuclear bombs."

    I doubt he said that.
    Doubt away
    Care to prove he did say that sentence you "quoted"?
  • Options
    llefllef Posts: 298
    nunu said:

    chestnut said:

    UK Exports Dec 2016

    Non EU - 61%........EU - 39%

    Wow. A real re-balancing if ever there was one.
    Mmm perhaps, but there was an article in the FT this week which said that 3rd and 4th quarter trade and investment figs for the UK were distorted by Gold sales to China via Switzerland (not in EU).

    Basically, we exported a lot of gold in 4th quarter to Non-EU which boosted "exports", but knocked down Fixed investments (as we had less assets).

    In 3rd quarter the reverse was true.

    So might be premature to hang out the Union Jack bunting.

    "In the final three months of 2016, UK goods exports to Switzerland increased by 282 per cent to their highest level ever.

    During the previous quarter these movements happened in the exact opposite direction as the UK became a net importer of gold."



  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,002
    @Roger - Sledghammer
    I remember it well! I was at junior school I think, and the sexual metaphors passed me by until I was about 35!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    John Stewart looking nailed on (Ahead of SF by 300 votes, with only DUP transfers left to distribute.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    tlg86 said:

    The Football Association wants to test a video assistant referee system from the third round of next year's FA Cup.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39157887

    I will stop going to football if this comes in.
    Football will not miss you. This is badly needed.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,790
    edited March 2017

    malcolmg said:

    Read her lips: the devolution settlement is no more. Future is ever closer union UK style. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/ … pic.twitter.com/GOkUhrj6lM

    Mrs M doesn't seem to understand the first objective of a nationalist party.
    Not for the first time I am trying to work out Mrs May's strategy. More precisely who she is pitching her remarks at?' The Scottish Conservatives in the conference hall (know your enemy)? The people of the UK (no more nonsense will be tolerated) ? The people of Scotland( don't choose independence) ?

    The first makes some sense. Maybe half of Scotland can't STAND the SNP. That even includes some that vote for them and only tolerate them because they share the goal of independence for Scotland. If it's the last however I fear.her intervention will be counterproductive.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Football Association wants to test a video assistant referee system from the third round of next year's FA Cup.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39157887

    I will stop going to football if this comes in.
    Heaven forbid they should try to get right some of the decisions that are currently got wrong.
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I moan about refs as much as the next fan (though I'd like to think I call it as I see it). The problem is, how do you stop and restart the game? If the linesman keeps his flag down and an offside goal is scored, then that can be corrected. But if the linesman calls offside incorrectly, what do you do?
    I think the rule will be to continue playing until it can be reviewed.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    FF43 said:

    chestnut said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    More on NI attitudes to reunification:

    http://endgameinulster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/lucid-talk-opinion-poll.html?m=1

    The union looks pretty safe on that basis. I don't think a campaign would change many minds and it would be very ugly.

    Nearly 30% of SNP voters do not support Scottish independence.

    Nationalist parties often morph into pressure groups. See UKIP.
    It's normally 10-15% of SNP who don't support independence (and contrariwise 85% of independence supporters intend to vote SNP). It's important to compare CURRENT voting intentions as support fot the SNP and independence fluctuates in lockstep.
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bpmbr27tkv/InternalResults_170126_Scotland.pdf

    http://www.panelbase.com/media/polls/F10131Wingstablesforpublication170217.pdf
    Just looked at pictures of the resurgent Tory party conference in Scotland. Oh dear what idiot booked the SEC, they must have been listening to the Klaxon. Empty does not begin to describe the hall, unbelievably embarrassing.
    The ticket booking website crashed due to demand. :smiley:
    Everyone was eager to hear May make the case against a smaller country detaching itself from a larger entity.

    https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/status/837609278785654785
    Just like the UK, then.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    FF43 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Read her lips: the devolution settlement is no more. Future is ever closer union UK style. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/ … pic.twitter.com/GOkUhrj6lM

    Mrs M doesn't seem to understand the first objective of a nationalist party.
    Not for the first time I am trying to work out Mrs May's strategy. More precisely who she is pitching her remarks at?' The Scottish Conservatives in the conference hall (know your enemy)? The people of the UK (no more nonsense will be tolerated) ? The people of Scotland( don't choose independence) ?

    The first makes some sense. Maybe half of Scotland can't STAND the SNP. That even includes some that vote for them and only tolerate them because they share the goal of independence for Scotland. If it's the last however I fear.her intervention will be counterproductive.
    An attempt to coalesce the unionist vote around one party?

    It seems easy to forget that the unionists won the referendum; it's their standard electoral divide that has handed the SNP a clear run ever since.

    The only way the unionists will put a stop to the neverendum agenda is to unify around one party.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Bloody hell I'm back home and watching channel 4 news, they've been banging on about this banksy stuff for bloody ages. Do they not realise no one really gives a fuck?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. Max, first I've heard of it.

    What's the story?
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    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,800

    On this 'but the Scots didn't know we might leave the EU' - their own government's White Paper told them it was a possibility - three times

    In that White Paper, the Scottish Government referred to the referendum as a ‘once in a generation opportunity’ (pages i and 556). Crucially, it also explicitly raised the prospect of a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU resulting in a vote to leave despite a majority of voters in Scotland voting to remain (pages 60, 217 and 460). In other words, although it explicitly highlighted the possibility of a majority of people in the UK as a whole voting to leave the EU while a majority of people in Scotland voted to remain, it still referred to the referendum as a ‘once in a generation’ opportunity, without any caveat or conditions with regard to future events.

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scotlandinunion/pages/559/attachments/original/1488541426/SIU_Letter_Feb_2017v4a.pdf?1488541426

    The 15% of No voters who said EU membership was the most important reason for voting the way they did are extremely unlikely to have been influenced (or indeed even have read) that publication. The No campaign's central message in the mass media was that only a no vote ensured continued EU membership.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,430
    edited March 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sinn Fein have a chance of being largest party I think.

    The DUP are already largest party on first preference votes, albeit narrowly
    The largest party doesn't necessarily win, because they are using a proportional system.


    Hang on a minute.....?!?!?!?!?
    STV can produce a non-proportional result if a party is particularly unpopular outside its own support base.

    Fianna Fail got hammered on exactly this basis in 2011 in the Republic of Ireland.
    Why should proportionality to first choices be the only thing that matters?

    In real life, situations where you can't do or have what you want, but get to express a preference between the remaining options that others want happen all the time.

    Why should politics be any different?

    If a party is unusually unpopular beyond its dedicated supporters, all the more reason why its (and their) influence should be contained IMHO.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967
    Pulpstar said:

    Dixie said:

    My guess on total seats is SF 29 DUP 28.

    thank you. Is that good/bad for either party?
    DUP were 1-5 or shorter to be most seats, so dire for the DUP.
    Probably 28 each.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    sarissa said:

    On this 'but the Scots didn't know we might leave the EU' - their own government's White Paper told them it was a possibility - three times

    In that White Paper, the Scottish Government referred to the referendum as a ‘once in a generation opportunity’ (pages i and 556). Crucially, it also explicitly raised the prospect of a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU resulting in a vote to leave despite a majority of voters in Scotland voting to remain (pages 60, 217 and 460). In other words, although it explicitly highlighted the possibility of a majority of people in the UK as a whole voting to leave the EU while a majority of people in Scotland voted to remain, it still referred to the referendum as a ‘once in a generation’ opportunity, without any caveat or conditions with regard to future events.

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scotlandinunion/pages/559/attachments/original/1488541426/SIU_Letter_Feb_2017v4a.pdf?1488541426

    The 15% of No voters who said EU membership was the most important reason for voting the way they did are extremely unlikely to have been influenced (or indeed even have read) that publication. The No campaign's central message in the mass media was that only a no vote ensured continued EU membership.
    Yes, given just how much 'Better Together' made of the uncertainty about an independent Scotland being able to stay in the EU it's highly disingenuous to suggest that a No vote was in anyway anti-EU.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Football Association wants to test a video assistant referee system from the third round of next year's FA Cup.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39157887

    I will stop going to football if this comes in.
    Heaven forbid they should try to get right some of the decisions that are currently got wrong.
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I moan about refs as much as the next fan (though I'd like to think I call it as I see it). The problem is, how do you stop and restart the game? If the linesman keeps his flag down and an offside goal is scored, then that can be corrected. But if the linesman calls offside incorrectly, what do you do?
    I think the rule will be to continue playing until it can be reviewed.
    So we might as well do away with assistant refs. And does the clock rewind to when play should have stopped?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,790
    edited March 2017
    chestnut said:

    FF43 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Read her lips: the devolution settlement is no more. Future is ever closer union UK style. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/ … pic.twitter.com/GOkUhrj6lM

    Mrs M doesn't seem to understand the first objective of a nationalist party.
    Not for the first time I am trying to work out Mrs May's strategy. More precisely who she is pitching her remarks at?' The Scottish Conservatives in the conference hall (know your enemy)? The people of the UK (no more nonsense will be tolerated) ? The people of Scotland( don't choose independence) ?

    The first makes some sense. Maybe half of Scotland can't STAND the SNP. That even includes some that vote for them and only tolerate them because they share the goal of independence for Scotland. If it's the last however I fear.her intervention will be counterproductive.
    An attempt to coalesce the unionist vote around one party?

    It seems easy to forget that the unionists won the referendum; it's their standard electoral divide that has handed the SNP a clear run ever since.

    The only way the unionists will put a stop to the neverendum agenda is to unify around one party.
    To a certain extent that's happened. The Conservatives are the party of the Union in Scotland just as they are the party of Brexit in the UK. The problem is that Unionists are by definition more interested in UK politics than nationalists. As many of them voted Remain, they have a problem with the "Party of Brexit". Nationalists don't care about a UK Brexit. They just want independence.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,897
    Very interesting piece on the hotel that Banksy has 'decorated' in Bethlehem overlooking Israel's wall on Ch4 News. Here's a piece in the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/banksy-opens-bethlehem-barrier-wall-hotel
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Will SF take the First Minister's position ?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Football Association wants to test a video assistant referee system from the third round of next year's FA Cup.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39157887

    I will stop going to football if this comes in.
    Heaven forbid they should try to get right some of the decisions that are currently got wrong.
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I moan about refs as much as the next fan (though I'd like to think I call it as I see it). The problem is, how do you stop and restart the game? If the linesman keeps his flag down and an offside goal is scored, then that can be corrected. But if the linesman calls offside incorrectly, what do you do?
    I think the rule will be to continue playing until it can be reviewed.
    So we might as well do away with assistant refs. And does the clock rewind to when play should have stopped?
    That's rather simple surely it gets added on to stoppage time?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,369
    edited March 2017
    FF43 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Read her lips: the devolution settlement is no more. Future is ever closer union UK style. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/ … pic.twitter.com/GOkUhrj6lM

    Mrs M doesn't seem to understand the first objective of a nationalist party.
    Not for the first time I am trying to work out Mrs May's strategy. More precisely who she is pitching her remarks at?' The Scottish Conservatives in the conference hall (know your enemy)? The people of the UK (no more nonsense will be tolerated) ? The people of Scotland( don't choose independence) ?

    The first makes some sense. Maybe half of Scotland can't STAND the SNP. That even includes some that vote for them and only tolerate them because they share the goal of independence for Scotland. If it's the last however I fear.her intervention will be counterproductive.
    The point has to be made that Ruth Davidson is proving a more than able match against Sturgeon, the conservatives are regaining their lost popularity and they are the only party fully committed to the Union and prepared to say it.

    Theresa May compliments Ruth Davidson and between the two of them the benefits of the Union will be well explained. Labour has managed to become as unpopular as the conservatives following the poll tax debacle and will take years, if ever, to become relevant in Scotland again

    The elections this May are likely to see a rise in the conservative support, particularly in the North East and borders and elsewhere, as has been evidenced in local election results in Scotland.

    Ironically just as the Lib Dems are the only pro EU party, the Scots Conservatives are already seen as the only true Unionist party in Scotland.

    Let's see what happens but expect to see the smiles on Ruth and Theresa's faces post May election contrast to the despondent Sturgeon and scowling Labour party
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Corbyn's contribution to Labour - it's death!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    edited March 2017
    surbiton said:

    Will SF take the First Minister's position ?

    Yes (if they have the most seats). Apparently the positions are identical in all but name.

    Edit: Actually, they said they wouldn't go back into government with the DUP, so that might lead to direct rule from Westminster.
  • Options
    llef said:

    nunu said:

    chestnut said:

    UK Exports Dec 2016

    Non EU - 61%........EU - 39%

    Wow. A real re-balancing if ever there was one.
    Mmm perhaps, but there was an article in the FT this week which said that 3rd and 4th quarter trade and investment figs for the UK were distorted by Gold sales to China via Switzerland (not in EU).

    Basically, we exported a lot of gold in 4th quarter to Non-EU which boosted "exports", but knocked down Fixed investments (as we had less assets).

    In 3rd quarter the reverse was true.

    So might be premature to hang out the Union Jack bunting.

    "In the final three months of 2016, UK goods exports to Switzerland increased by 282 per cent to their highest level ever.

    During the previous quarter these movements happened in the exact opposite direction as the UK became a net importer of gold."



    However, all this illustrates is how EU Statistics over represent the UK's dependence on the EU. If the same transaction 'Gold to China' had been routed via Paris, Frankfurt or Schiphol, Eurostat would have called this a UK export to the EU. It's known to any competent economist as "the Rotterdam effect" (and the ONS wrote an article on the effect on UK export statistics: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http:/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/uktrade/uk-trade/december-2014/sty-trade-rotterdam-effect-.html). Taking the Rotterdam effect, and adding the smaller (but material) effects of Antwerp, Hamburg and other transshipment ports, the UK's exports to the EU are overstated by about 7% (and exports outside the EU are understated by 7%).

    Unfortunately, this is too abstract and academic for the most Europhiliacs to understand, and those who understand are happy with the overstating of our trade with the EU as it assists their lies.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FF43 said:

    chestnut said:

    FF43 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Read her lips: the devolution settlement is no more. Future is ever closer union UK style. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/ … pic.twitter.com/GOkUhrj6lM

    Mrs M doesn't seem to understand the first objective of a nationalist party.
    Not for the first time I am trying to work out Mrs May's strategy. More precisely who she is pitching her remarks at?' The Scottish Conservatives in the conference hall (know your enemy)? The people of the UK (no more nonsense will be tolerated) ? The people of Scotland( don't choose independence) ?

    The first makes some sense. Maybe half of Scotland can't STAND the SNP. That even includes some that vote for them and only tolerate them because they share the goal of independence for Scotland. If it's the last however I fear.her intervention will be counterproductive.
    An attempt to coalesce the unionist vote around one party?

    It seems easy to forget that the unionists won the referendum; it's their standard electoral divide that has handed the SNP a clear run ever since.

    The only way the unionists will put a stop to the neverendum agenda is to unify around one party.
    To a certain extent that's happened. The Conservatives are the party of the Union in Scotland just as they are the party of Brexit in the UK. The problem is that Unionists are by definition more interested in UK politics than nationalists. As many of them voted Remain, they have a problem with the "Party of Brexit". Nationalists don't care about a UK Brexit. They just want independence.
    Except that by the next major elections Brexit will have already happened and independence won't have. So the live issue will be unionism not remainism.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    Ironically just as the Lib Dems are the only pro EU party, the Scots Conservatives are already seen as the only true Unionist party in Scotland.

    Which, given that the Conservatives are the party of power in Westminster, means that one slip up in their governance of the UK, or management of Brexit, and Unionism won't have any friends north of the border.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    FF43 said:

    chestnut said:

    FF43 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Read her lips: the devolution settlement is no more. Future is ever closer union UK style. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/ … pic.twitter.com/GOkUhrj6lM

    Mrs M doesn't seem to understand the first objective of a nationalist party.
    Not for the first time I am trying to work out Mrs May's strategy. More precisely who she is pitching her remarks at?' The Scottish Conservatives in the conference hall (know your enemy)? The people of the UK (no more nonsense will be tolerated) ? The people of Scotland( don't choose independence) ?

    The first makes some sense. Maybe half of Scotland can't STAND the SNP. That even includes some that vote for them and only tolerate them because they share the goal of independence for Scotland. If it's the last however I fear.her intervention will be counterproductive.
    An attempt to coalesce the unionist vote around one party?

    It seems easy to forget that the unionists won the referendum; it's their standard electoral divide that has handed the SNP a clear run ever since.

    The only way the unionists will put a stop to the neverendum agenda is to unify around one party.
    To a certain extent that's happened. The Conservatives are the party of the Union in Scotland just as they are the party of Brexit in the UK. The problem is that Unionists are by definition more interested in UK politics than nationalists. As many of them voted Remain, they have a problem with the "Party of Brexit". Nationalists don't care about a UK Brexit. They just want independence.
    Except that by the next major elections Brexit will have already happened and independence won't have. So the live issue will be unionism not remainism.
    The only way Brexit could 'already happen' by the time of the next election is to go over a cliff edge, which the government has ruled out. If we have a staged withdrawal it will still be as much of an issue as it is now.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,233
    Is this not fairly seismic if SF win most seats? Does that mean they get first minister?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    llef said:

    nunu said:

    chestnut said:

    UK Exports Dec 2016

    Non EU - 61%........EU - 39%

    Wow. A real re-balancing if ever there was one.
    Mmm perhaps, but there was an article in the FT this week which said that 3rd and 4th quarter trade and investment figs for the UK were distorted by Gold sales to China via Switzerland (not in EU).

    Basically, we exported a lot of gold in 4th quarter to Non-EU which boosted "exports", but knocked down Fixed investments (as we had less assets).

    In 3rd quarter the reverse was true.

    So might be premature to hang out the Union Jack bunting.

    "In the final three months of 2016, UK goods exports to Switzerland increased by 282 per cent to their highest level ever.

    During the previous quarter these movements happened in the exact opposite direction as the UK became a net importer of gold."

    However, all this illustrates is how EU Statistics over represent the UK's dependence on the EU. If the same transaction 'Gold to China' had been routed via Paris, Frankfurt or Schiphol, Eurostat would have called this a UK export to the EU. It's known to any competent economist as "the Rotterdam effect" (and the ONS wrote an article on the effect on UK export statistics: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http:/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/uktrade/uk-trade/december-2014/sty-trade-rotterdam-effect-.html). Taking the Rotterdam effect, and adding the smaller (but material) effects of Antwerp, Hamburg and other transshipment ports, the UK's exports to the EU are overstated by about 7% (and exports outside the EU are understated by 7%).

    Unfortunately, this is too abstract and academic for the most Europhiliacs to understand, and those who understand are happy with the overstating of our trade with the EU as it assists their lies.
    The same happens with imports too.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    FF43 said:

    To a certain extent that's happened. The Conservatives are the party of the Union in Scotland just as they are the party of Brexit in the UK. The problem is that Unionists are by definition more interested in UK politics than nationalists. As many of them voted Remain, they have a problem with the "Party of Brexit". Nationalists don't care about a UK Brexit. They just want independence.

    From the Panelbase Poll:

    Euro Sindy : 31%
    Hard Sindy : 10%
    Euro Brits : 26%
    Indy Brits : 27%

    Ideal scenario - 53 in the UK, 41 out

    Leaving the UK to be under the Euroboot is a 31% strategy.

    If I were a Scot wanting Sindy, I'd push for Brexit, then an anglosphere trade arrangement and then go for it.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,132
    edited March 2017

    Got those bell-bottoms pressed - we're going back to the 70s!

    https://twitter.com/fastFT/status/837609965221265409

    A few comparisons between the 1970s and the last decade:

    Productivity

    1970-1980 22% increase
    2005-2015 3% increase

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/labourproductivity/timeseries/a4ym/prdy

    Government Debt as a percentage of GDP

    1975 56% (earliest year on the ONS)
    1985 44%

    2006 35%
    2016 86%

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x/pusf

    Trade Balance cumulative

    1971-1980 £2bn surplus
    2007-2016 £369bn deficit

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/ikbj/pn2

    GDP per head increase

    1970-1980 25%
    2006-2016 4%

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/n3y6/pn2

    The 1970s were also an era of rising home ownership - the opposite of the last decade.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,790

    FF43 said:

    chestnut said:

    FF43 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Read her lips: the devolution settlement is no more. Future is ever closer union UK style. http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/ … pic.twitter.com/GOkUhrj6lM

    Mrs M doesn't seem to understand the first objective of a nationalist party.
    Not for the first time I am trying to work out Mrs May's strategy. More precisely who she is pitching her remarks at?' The Scottish Conservatives in the conference hall (know your enemy)? The people of the UK (no more nonsense will be tolerated) ? The people of Scotland( don't choose independence) ?

    The first makes some sense. Maybe half of Scotland can't STAND the SNP. That even includes some that vote for them and only tolerate them because they share the goal of independence for Scotland. If it's the last however I fear.her intervention will be counterproductive.
    An attempt to coalesce the unionist vote around one party?

    It seems easy to forget that the unionists won the referendum; it's their standard electoral divide that has handed the SNP a clear run ever since.

    The only way the unionists will put a stop to the neverendum agenda is to unify around one party.
    To a certain extent that's happened. The Conservatives are the party of the Union in Scotland just as they are the party of Brexit in the UK. The problem is that Unionists are by definition more interested in UK politics than nationalists. As many of them voted Remain, they have a problem with the "Party of Brexit". Nationalists don't care about a UK Brexit. They just want independence.
    Except that by the next major elections Brexit will have already happened and independence won't have. So the live issue will be unionism not remainism.
    Which elections? There's the not so small matter of the independence referendum that Mrs May seems to be taunting Ms Sturgeon to hold or not hold. It will probably take place just as the assumptions behind a Brexit that Scotland didn't vote for are unravelling. That doesn't seem like a good backdrop for a reassertion of unionism.

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,897

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    FF43 said:

    chestnut said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    More on NI attitudes to reunification:

    http://endgameinulster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/lucid-talk-opinion-poll.html?m=1

    The union looks pretty safe on that basis. I don't think a campaign would change many minds and it would be very ugly.

    Nearly 30% of SNP voters do not support Scottish independence.

    Nationalist parties often morph into pressure groups. See UKIP.
    It's normally 10-15% of SNP who don't support independence (and contrariwise 85% of independence supporters intend to vote SNP). It's important to compare CURRENT voting intentions as support fot the SNP and independence fluctuates in lockstep.
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bpmbr27tkv/InternalResults_170126_Scotland.pdf

    http://www.panelbase.com/media/polls/F10131Wingstablesforpublication170217.pdf
    Just looked at pictures of the resurgent Tory party conference in Scotland. Oh dear what idiot booked the SEC, they must have been listening to the Klaxon. Empty does not begin to describe the hall, unbelievably embarrassing.
    The ticket booking website crashed due to demand. :smiley:
    Everyone was eager to hear May make the case against a smaller country detaching itself from a larger entity.

    https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/status/837609278785654785
    Now that's funny!
  • Options

    Ironically just as the Lib Dems are the only pro EU party, the Scots Conservatives are already seen as the only true Unionist party in Scotland.

    Which, given that the Conservatives are the party of power in Westminster, means that one slip up in their governance of the UK, or management of Brexit, and Unionism won't have any friends north of the border.
    And what if Theresa May makes a success of Brexit despite the longing by so many who voted remain for it to fail. The point is that following the A50 notice the management or otherwise of Brexit will depend on the EU being sensible, as any impression they are the cause of problems, will just strengthen the will to leave.

    As someone who is married to a Scot, has lived in Edinburgh, and has a large Scottish family the devolved Government needs to contribute postively to the negotiations and help to make the deal a great one for all of us. Now is not the time to threaten another referendum and indeed constantly talking of it is a turn off for many
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,233
    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    FF43 said:

    chestnut said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    More on NI attitudes to reunification:

    http://endgameinulster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/lucid-talk-opinion-poll.html?m=1

    The union looks pretty safe on that basis. I don't think a campaign would change many minds and it would be very ugly.

    Nearly 30% of SNP voters do not support Scottish independence.

    Nationalist parties often morph into pressure groups. See UKIP.
    It's normally 10-15% of SNP who don't support independence (and contrariwise 85% of independence supporters intend to vote SNP). It's important to compare CURRENT voting intentions as support fot the SNP and independence fluctuates in lockstep.
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bpmbr27tkv/InternalResults_170126_Scotland.pdf

    http://www.panelbase.com/media/polls/F10131Wingstablesforpublication170217.pdf
    Just looked at pictures of the resurgent Tory party conference in Scotland. Oh dear what idiot booked the SEC, they must have been listening to the Klaxon. Empty does not begin to describe the hall, unbelievably embarrassing.
    The ticket booking website crashed due to demand. :smiley:
    Everyone was eager to hear May make the case against a smaller country detaching itself from a larger entity.

    https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/status/837609278785654785
    Now that's funny!
    She really is epically dim.

    I feel a massive fall coming along at some point if she just continues to ignore perspectives that don't support her own.
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    OUTOUT Posts: 569
    TUV leader wondering aloud if Stormont is the best way of governing NI for unionists.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    Now is not the time to threaten another referendum and indeed constantly talking of it is a turn off for many

    Constant talk of an EU referendum was a turn off for millions of people in the UK, but it was held and the separatists won. I wouldn't read too much into the feelings of those who are simply fatigued by the whole business.
  • Options

    On this 'but the Scots didn't know we might leave the EU' - their own government's White Paper told them it was a possibility - three times

    In that White Paper, the Scottish Government referred to the referendum as a ‘once in a generation opportunity’ (pages i and 556). Crucially, it also explicitly raised the prospect of a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU resulting in a vote to leave despite a majority of voters in Scotland voting to remain (pages 60, 217 and 460). In other words, although it explicitly highlighted the possibility of a majority of people in the UK as a whole voting to leave the EU while a majority of people in Scotland voted to remain, it still referred to the referendum as a ‘once in a generation’ opportunity, without any caveat or conditions with regard to future events.

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scotlandinunion/pages/559/attachments/original/1488541426/SIU_Letter_Feb_2017v4a.pdf?1488541426

    Alex Salmond called it "a once in a lifetime opportunity" on camera

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R__GiEc5wc

    Does this mean that Salmond should employ a food taster? If Sturgeon poisoned him, she could claim the lifetime had ended!
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,727
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sinn Fein have a chance of being largest party I think.

    The DUP are already largest party on first preference votes, albeit narrowly
    The largest party doesn't necessarily win, because they are using a proportional system.


    Hang on a minute.....?!?!?!?!?
    STV can produce a non-proportional result if a party is particularly unpopular outside its own support base.

    Fianna Fail got hammered on exactly this basis in 2011 in the Republic of Ireland.
    Why should proportionality to first choices be the only thing that matters?

    In real life, situations where you can't do or have what you want, but get to express a preference between the remaining options that others want happen all the time.

    Why should politics be any different?

    If a party is unusually unpopular beyond its dedicated supporters, all the more reason why its (and their) influence should be contained IMHO.
    STV more closely produces what people want.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967
    surbiton said:

    Will SF take the First Minister's position ?

    If the parties are equal in seats, the DUP get FM, because they're ahead in votes.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,897
    Malc

    If you're around I'm curious what your attitude is now towards independence. You voted Brexit but Nicola's whole strategy is based around rejoining Europe possibly going as far as using the Euro.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,907
    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    FF43 said:

    chestnut said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    More on NI attitudes to reunification:

    http://endgameinulster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/lucid-talk-opinion-poll.html?m=1

    The union looks pretty safe on that basis. I don't think a campaign would change many minds and it would be very ugly.

    Nearly 30% of SNP voters do not support Scottish independence.

    Nationalist parties often morph into pressure groups. See UKIP.
    It's normally 10-15% of SNP who don't support independence (and contrariwise 85% of independence supporters intend to vote SNP). It's important to compare CURRENT voting intentions as support fot the SNP and independence fluctuates in lockstep.
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bpmbr27tkv/InternalResults_170126_Scotland.pdf

    http://www.panelbase.com/media/polls/F10131Wingstablesforpublication170217.pdf
    Just looked at pictures of the resurgent Tory party conference in Scotland. Oh dear what idiot booked the SEC, they must have been listening to the Klaxon. Empty does not begin to describe the hall, unbelievably embarrassing.
    The ticket booking website crashed due to demand. :smiley:
    Everyone was eager to hear May make the case against a smaller country detaching itself from a larger entity.

    https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/status/837609278785654785
    Now that's funny!
    My ironyometer just broke.
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    Sky saying likely Westminster will have to take control of Northern Ireland
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @NCPoliticsUK: BREAKING: Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt announces resignation after failing to increase vote share #AE17
  • Options

    NEW THREAD

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    We've lost our leader. Brilliant final move to say the buck stops here. With Morrow about to lose his seat. Foster will be under serious pressure.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Got those bell-bottoms pressed - we're going back to the 70s!

    https://twitter.com/fastFT/status/837609965221265409

    A few comparisons between the 1970s and the last decade:

    Productivity

    1970-1980 22% increase
    2005-2015 3% increase

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/labourproductivity/timeseries/a4ym/prdy

    Government Debt as a percentage of GDP

    1975 56% (earliest year on the ONS)
    1985 44%

    2006 35%
    2016 86%

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x/pusf

    Trade Balance cumulative

    1971-1980 £2bn surplus
    2007-2016 £369bn deficit

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/ikbj/pn2

    GDP per head increase

    1970-1980 25%
    2006-2016 4%

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/n3y6/pn2

    The 1970s were also an era of rising home ownership - the opposite of the last decade.
    = Basketcase
  • Options
    llefllef Posts: 298

    llef said:

    nunu said:

    chestnut said:

    UK Exports Dec 2016

    Non EU - 61%........EU - 39%

    Wow. A real re-balancing if ever there was one.
    Mmm perhaps, but there was an article in the FT this week which said that 3rd and 4th quarter trade and investment figs for the UK were distorted by Gold sales to China via Switzerland (not in EU).

    Basically, we exported a lot of gold in 4th quarter to Non-EU which boosted "exports", but knocked down Fixed investments (as we had less assets).

    In 3rd quarter the reverse was true.

    So might be premature to hang out the Union Jack bunting.

    "In the final three months of 2016, UK goods exports to Switzerland increased by 282 per cent to their highest level ever.

    During the previous quarter these movements happened in the exact opposite direction as the UK became a net importer of gold."



    However, all this illustrates is how EU Statistics over represent the UK's dependence on the EU. If the same transaction 'Gold to China' had been routed via Paris, Frankfurt or Schiphol, Eurostat would have called this a UK export to the EU. It's known to any competent economist as "the Rotterdam effect" (and the ONS wrote an article on the effect on UK export statistics: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http:/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/uktrade/uk-trade/december-2014/sty-trade-rotterdam-effect-.html). Taking the Rotterdam effect, and adding the smaller (but material) effects of Antwerp, Hamburg and other transshipment ports, the UK's exports to the EU are overstated by about 7% (and exports outside the EU are understated by 7%).

    Unfortunately, this is too abstract and academic for the most Europhiliacs to understand, and those who understand are happy with the overstating of our trade with the EU as it assists their lies.
    yep, fair enough, the devil is in the detail as always... as I'm sure those Brexiteers in charge of our negotiations with the EU will find out soon enough too....
This discussion has been closed.