(Disclaimer: I live in a neighbouring seat and am a paid up LD member.)
The key thing about Manchester Gorton isn't merely that it is a safe seat, but it is a core Corbynite demographic. Outside of London it doesn't get much more diverse than Rusholme and Levenshulme, and it's one of the 20 most student-heavy seats in the country (if memory serves). Loyal Labour voters (Mancunians don't vote Tory, almost as a matter of culture) and the precisely the demographics which used to defect to the Lib Dems but have been won back. It isn't even *that* Remain-skewed, it's like Islington but less wealthy and less Remain.
There's a reason the Lib Dems used to come reasonably close here: students and Iraq-angry Labour voters. But those same groups are Corbyn's key appeal.
Predictions:
Labour will walk it. Probably even increase their majority. This seat was made for Corbyn's Labour, and the students provide loads of activists.
Lib Dems should come second from their national revival and good activist base which remains despite the Council wipe-out of 2014 (though we got one back last year!). 10% minimum, 20% would be an achievement.
The Greens have been making headway in bits of South Manchester the last few years, so they could come second - but I imagine they will struggle to hold a unique appeal given Corbyn leads Labour and the Lib Dems aren't in Coalition any more (many haven't forgiven them yet, but each week and month a few more do). Plus they just aren't as good at the ground game.
I suspect the Tories will have quite a disappointing result: there just isn't the market for them in this sort of seat. But they are very popular these days, so I wouldn't rule out a 3rd place for them.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I think he was able and still performing his job when he died
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
Sir Winston Churchill was 90 when he stood down in 1964 he died a few months later. He rarely attended and never spoke in his last years.
No matter what his past reputation, his local association should have stopped him standing at the 1959 election. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I think he was able and still performing his job when he died :
OK - So he has to hold onto the bench after he gets up for a second time, but he is clearly mentally capable and was able to deliver his speech on behalf of his constituent without problems.
What about an MP who is perhaps younger but develops Alzheimers though ?
Has there ever been a case of that occurring - I think that rather than someone's physical age is a potential real issue. Incapability.
Fair point but for somebody to carry on a full time job 21 years after retirement ages begs the question of how demanding the job is. I wouldn't let an 86 year old relative of mine travel from Manchester to London unaccompanied, the whole thing is ridiculous.
Dear Mr/Ms freetochoose: "You wouldn't let" someone else be free to choose?
(And welcome to PB by the way, I haven't noticed you posting before)
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
Kaufman still seemed capable enough to me even though he was in his mid 80s. I assume being an active constituency MP keeps one mentally active and could prevent mental decline - as for the Lords, I note there are always several of them asleep. I do wonder if they're all as mentally fit as Kaufman was when he died ?
Agreed. And as human lives endure we will see more people in their nineties performing such roles. They will be in a tiny minority among their contemporaries, but the proportion will grow.
Ireland is set to benefit from Australian companies seeking access to the EU after Brexit, Australia’s foreign minister has said.
“Many Australian firms have accessed the EU via Britain. With the uncertainty surrounding what a post-Brexit Britain will look like, I believe Australian firms will look to Ireland to fulfil that role,” she said.
“Ireland has a very attractive business environment, low corporate tax rates, [a good] lifestyle and there is the connection between Australia and Ireland.
She described Ireland as an “obvious partner” to do business within the EU. “Ireland is superbly positioned to attract that kind of engagement from Australian business. I see this as a great opportunity of how we, Australia and Ireland, can take advantage of what has occurred in Brexit.”
At least Julie took the time to smarten Boris up a bit.
oh yeah because the Irish economy is about the size of New Zealands but without the upside
The Irish are currently contemplating the fact that 88% of their energy comes from/via the UK.
Is it true that the UK, as a net EU contributor, effectively subsidises Irish membership of the European Project?
*runs and hides*
I believe Ireland are now a net contributor
I guess they will be an even larger contributor when the UK leaves.
I'm far from convinced that we are not going to continue contributing to the EU budget.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
Sir Winston Churchill was 90 when he stood down in 1964 he died a few months later. He rarely attended and never spoke in his last years.
No matter what his past reputation, his local association should have stopped him standing at the 1959 election. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
I'm afraid that clearly it does. The feted Denis Skinner is 85, he'll step down when he decides, nobody else. Somebody of that age is incapable of working without enormous assistance and great cost to the taxpayer, its ludicrous.
Carswell probably should leave. I cant see his vision of a nicely nicely party working. He boasts of his excellence in winning elections, but he has been MP in Clacton for over a decade now and it houses the most run down part of the country. The Frinton Conservative Club types love him, no one in Jaywick has ever heard of him. I contacted him on more than one occasion with feedback from Jaywick residents I got while canvassing, and he didn't reply apart from an auto generated email. He basically couldn't give a fuck about the most run down part of England, too busy making smart arse comments on tv and talking up his book
(Disclaimer: I live in a neighbouring seat and am a paid up LD member.)
The key thing about Manchester Gorton isn't merely that it is a safe seat, but it is a core Corbynite demographic. Outside of London it doesn't get much more diverse than Rusholme and Levenshulme, and it's one of the 20 most student-heavy seats in the country (if memory serves). Loyal Labour voters (Mancunians don't vote Tory, almost as a matter of culture) and the precisely the demographics which used to defect to the Lib Dems but have been won back. It isn't even *that* Remain-skewed, it's like Islington but less wealthy and less Remain.
There's a reason the Lib Dems used to come reasonably close here: students and Iraq-angry Labour voters. But those same groups are Corbyn's key appeal.
Predictions:
Labour will walk it. Probably even increase their majority. This seat was made for Corbyn's Labour, and the students provide loads of activists.
Lib Dems should come second from their national revival and good activist base which remains despite the Council wipe-out of 2014 (though we got one back last year!). 10% minimum, 20% would be an achievement.
The Greens have been making headway in bits of South Manchester the last few years, so they could come second - but I imagine they will struggle to hold a unique appeal given Corbyn leads Labour and the Lib Dems aren't in Coalition any more (many haven't forgiven them yet, but each week and month a few more do). Plus they just aren't as good at the ground game.
I suspect the Tories will have quite a disappointing result: there just isn't the market for them in this sort of seat. But they are very popular these days, so I wouldn't rule out a 3rd place for them.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
Sir Winston Churchill was 90 when he stood down in 1964 he died a few months later. He rarely attended and never spoke in his last years.
No matter what his past reputation, his local association should have stopped him standing at the 1959 election. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
I'm afraid that clearly it does. The feted Denis Skinner is 85, he'll step down when he decides, nobody else. Somebody of that age is incapable of working without enormous assistance and great cost to the taxpayer, its ludicrous.
Remember S O Davies in Merthyr in the 70's (I think)!
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I think he was able and still performing his job when he died :
OK - So he has to hold onto the bench after he gets up for a second time, but he is clearly mentally capable and was able to deliver his speech on behalf of his constituent without problems.
What about an MP who is perhaps younger but develops Alzheimers though ?
Has there ever been a case of that occurring - I think that rather than someone's physical age is a potential real issue. Incapability.
Ultimately the only people who can remove an MP against their will are the voters in the constituency or the members of their local party
Ireland is set to benefit from Australian companies seeking access to the EU after Brexit, Australia’s foreign minister has said.
“Many Australian firms have accessed the EU via Britain. With the uncertainty surrounding what a post-Brexit Britain will look like, I believe Australian firms will look to Ireland to fulfil that role,” she said.
“Ireland has a very attractive business environment, low corporate tax rates, [a good] lifestyle and there is the connection between Australia and Ireland.
She described Ireland as an “obvious partner” to do business within the EU. “Ireland is superbly positioned to attract that kind of engagement from Australian business. I see this as a great opportunity of how we, Australia and Ireland, can take advantage of what has occurred in Brexit.”
At least Julie took the time to smarten Boris up a bit.
oh yeah because the Irish economy is about the size of New Zealands but without the upside
The Irish are currently contemplating the fact that 88% of their energy comes from/via the UK.
Is it true that the UK, as a net EU contributor, effectively subsidises Irish membership of the European Project?
*runs and hides*
I believe Ireland are now a net contributor
Citation needed
"Since 2014, the Republic has become a net contributor to the EU Budget" Taken from an article on Conservative Home today by Anthony Coughlin. Associate Proferssor Emeritus at Trinity College Dublin. No one disputed the point in the comments so I assume he knows of what he speaks.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
As Sunil points out the Head of State of our country still signs off laws and is over 90
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
Sir Winston Churchill was 90 when he stood down in 1964 he died a few months later. He rarely attended and never spoke in his last years.
No matter what his past reputation, his local association should have stopped him standing at the 1959 election. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
I'm afraid that clearly it does. The feted Denis Skinner is 85, he'll step down when he decides, nobody else. Somebody of that age is incapable of working without enormous assistance and great cost to the taxpayer, its ludicrous.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
Well of course it is. Due in part to it simultaneously being one of the most unifying forces in human history. It enables tribes, nations, races, to unify under a common banner. But all like all ideas, it at some level defines itself against the 'other', and so by its very nature in being unifying it also divides.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
Sir Winston Churchill was 90 when he stood down in 1964 he died a few months later. He rarely attended and never spoke in his last years.
No matter what his past reputation, his local association should have stopped him standing at the 1959 election. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
I'm afraid that clearly it does. The feted Denis Skinner is 85, he'll step down when he decides, nobody else. Somebody of that age is incapable of working without enormous assistance and great cost to the taxpayer, its ludicrous.
I mean an MP who is clearly going senile, Churchill had already had a stroke by 1959, Skinner seems to still be in good health, he'll probably see out the next three years.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I think he was able and still performing his job when he died :
OK - So he has to hold onto the bench after he gets up for a second time, but he is clearly mentally capable and was able to deliver his speech on behalf of his constituent without problems.
What about an MP who is perhaps younger but develops Alzheimers though ?
Has there ever been a case of that occurring - I think that rather than someone's physical age is a potential real issue. Incapability.
Fair point but for somebody to carry on a full time job 21 years after retirement ages begs the question of how demanding the job is. I wouldn't let an 86 year old relative of mine travel from Manchester to London unaccompanied, the whole thing is ridiculous.
Dear Mr/Ms freetochoose: "You wouldn't let" someone else be free to choose?
(And welcome to PB by the way, I haven't noticed you posting before)
Thank you, you raise a good point. I know many people in their 80s, a few in their 90s, they are all respected and cared for but allowances are made for their forgetfulness and inability to carry out various tasks. I can't think of one who's relatives would allow them to travel 200 miles alone.
I maintain that an 86 year old should make way for somebody more physically and mentally capable. There are reasons why the state provides a pension to people in their 60s
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
Sir Winston Churchill was 90 when he stood down in 1964 he died a few months later. He rarely attended and never spoke in his last years.
No matter what his past reputation, his local association should have stopped him standing at the 1959 election. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
I'm afraid that clearly it does. The feted Denis Skinner is 85, he'll step down when he decides, nobody else. Somebody of that age is incapable of working without enormous assistance and great cost to the taxpayer, its ludicrous.
Well if healthy he could work at that age, but how effectively without assistance I do not know.He might not be as good an MP then as he once was, but then it is a job without performance standards.
Robert Mugabe wants to run for another term, by which time he'll be in his mid 90s. I imagine a lot of day to day stuff is taken out of his hands thesedays.
Carswell probably should leave. I cant see his vision of a nicely nicely party working. He boasts of his excellence in winning elections, but he has been MP in Clacton for over a decade now and it houses the most run down part of the country. The Frinton Conservative Club types love him, no one in Jaywick has ever heard of him. I contacted him on more than one occasion with feedback from Jaywick residents I got while canvassing, and he didn't reply apart from an auto generated email. He basically couldn't give a fuck about the most run down part of England, too busy making smart arse comments on tv and talking up his book
He is the only person in UKIP talking any sense these days. He should leave because the inevitable direction of the party is the extremist fringes.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
As Sunil points out the Head of State of our country still signs off laws and is over 90
Signing off a law is very different to contributing to making the law of course, particularly when the former is a symbolic act which requires no decision making.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
The sad thing is that the core motive of religion - making sense of our existence - is fascinating and honourable. Yet in the last few thousand years human beings have contrived to create a situation whereby we create outlandish stories, drum them into the brains of children, who then encounter rival outlandish stories drummed into the brains of other children.
Carswell probably should leave. I cant see his vision of a nicely nicely party working. He boasts of his excellence in winning elections, but he has been MP in Clacton for over a decade now and it houses the most run down part of the country. The Frinton Conservative Club types love him, no one in Jaywick has ever heard of him. I contacted him on more than one occasion with feedback from Jaywick residents I got while canvassing, and he didn't reply apart from an auto generated email. He basically couldn't give a fuck about the most run down part of England, too busy making smart arse comments on tv and talking up his book
He is the only person in UKIP talking any sense these days. He should leave because the inevitable direction of the party is the extremist fringes.
Well you are entitled to your opinion. Yourself and Carswell wanted to leave the EU for entirely different reasons to most people who voted Leave, without Farage we would still be in it. Carswells hi falutin' highbrow talk may go down a treat with MEPs and Eurosceptic Tories, but we would still be in the EU if we relied on that. Meanwhile, in Jaywick, 12 years on they are in dire poverty
I have just been checking some election results from 1970, and was a bit surprised to discover that in that election there were 185 straight fight contests - with the exception of a few in Northern Ireland all were Tory v Labour contests.
When David Steele became Liberal leader he insisted that they should contest every seat, before that they used to concentrate on regional targets to avoid lost deposits.
Back then the deposit was smaller but you needed a bigger percentage to get your money back, I think 12.5% compared to 5% now.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
As Sunil points out the Head of State of our country still signs off laws and is over 90
Signing off a law is very different to contributing to making the law of course, particularly when the former is a symbolic act which requires no decision making.
The Lords is in some respects only a symbolic body since it can only recommend amendments to laws it cannot force the Commons to make them while in theory at least if not practice the Sovereign could refuse to sign off on a Bill
Carswell probably should leave. I cant see his vision of a nicely nicely party working. He boasts of his excellence in winning elections, but he has been MP in Clacton for over a decade now and it houses the most run down part of the country. The Frinton Conservative Club types love him, no one in Jaywick has ever heard of him. I contacted him on more than one occasion with feedback from Jaywick residents I got while canvassing, and he didn't reply apart from an auto generated email. He basically couldn't give a fuck about the most run down part of England, too busy making smart arse comments on tv and talking up his book
He is the only person in UKIP talking any sense these days. He should leave because the inevitable direction of the party is the extremist fringes.
I have sympathy with Carswell, he and Reckless thought (rightly or wrongly) they were joining a party of free marketeer libertarians, not one obsessed with immigration. Bridges have been burned it seems which is a shame, I'd love to vote for a party containing Carswell, Hannan, Reckless, Field, Hoey etc, but appreciate its wishful thinking.
Carswell probably should leave. I cant see his vision of a nicely nicely party working. He boasts of his excellence in winning elections, but he has been MP in Clacton for over a decade now and it houses the most run down part of the country. The Frinton Conservative Club types love him, no one in Jaywick has ever heard of him. I contacted him on more than one occasion with feedback from Jaywick residents I got while canvassing, and he didn't reply apart from an auto generated email. He basically couldn't give a fuck about the most run down part of England, too busy making smart arse comments on tv and talking up his book
He is the only person in UKIP talking any sense these days. He should leave because the inevitable direction of the party is the extremist fringes.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I think he was able and still performing his job when he died :
OK - So he has to hold onto the bench after he gets up for a second time, but he is clearly mentally capable and was able to deliver his speech on behalf of his constituent without problems.
What about an MP who is perhaps younger but develops Alzheimers though ?
Has there ever been a case of that occurring - I think that rather than someone's physical age is a potential real issue. Incapability.
Fair point but for somebody to carry on a full time job 21 years after retirement ages begs the question of how demanding the job is. I wouldn't let an 86 year old relative of mine travel from Manchester to London unaccompanied, the whole thing is ridiculous.
Dear Mr/Ms freetochoose: "You wouldn't let" someone else be free to choose?
(And welcome to PB by the way, I haven't noticed you posting before)
Thank you, you raise a good point. I know many people in their 80s, a few in their 90s, they are all respected and cared for but allowances are made for their forgetfulness and inability to carry out various tasks. I can't think of one who's relatives would allow them to travel 200 miles alone.
I maintain that an 86 year old should make way for somebody more physically and mentally capable. There are reasons why the state provides a pension to people in their 60s
There are 90+ year-olds who still drive and are fully independent, sometimes caring for family members as well. No allowances need to be made for them. People age at different rates & chronological age is not always a good guide.
Whether a person of that chronological age should do something that would give a younger person gainful employment is a different question.
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
The sad thing is that the core motive of religion - making sense of our existence - is fascinating and honourable. Yet in the last few thousand years human beings have contrived to create a situation whereby we create outlandish stories, drum them into the brains of children, who then encounter rival outlandish stories drummed into the brains of other children.
The most popular outlandish story in our culture is Father Christmas. I cringe when my relatives excite their young children by showing them Santa's journey in real time on their tablets.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
So it is. But that's no bad thing. Passionate debate makes the world march.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I think he was able and still performing his job when he died :
OK - So he has to hold onto the bench after he gets up for a second time, but he is clearly mentally capable and was able to deliver his speech on behalf of his constituent without problems.
What about an MP who is perhaps younger but develops Alzheimers though ?
Has there ever been a case of that occurring - I think that rather than someone's physical age is a potential real issue. Incapability.
Snip
Dear Mr/Ms freetochoose: "You wouldn't let" someone else be free to choose?
(And welcome to PB by the way, I haven't noticed you posting before)
Thank you, you raise a good point. I know many people in their 80s, a few in their 90s, they are all respected and cared for but allowances snip
There are 90+ year-olds who still drive and are fully independent, sometimes caring for family members as well. No allowances need to be made for them. People age at different rates & chronological age is not always a good guide.
Whether a person of that chronological age should do something that would give a younger person gainful employment is a different question.
As it is, Sunil in a rare evening of sensibility, has made the strongest argument. If the head of state herself can be expected to work into her nineties then why not humble MPs? I raised her possible retirement on here the other day. I'm not a royalist but it would seem reasonable to me for her to abdicate. Yet the royalists on here seemed a little affronted by the suggestion - saying that she pledged to serve her whole life. Of course, when she made that pledge she wouldn't have expected to live so long.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
All intelligent people formulate beliefs as children.
I have just been checking some election results from 1970, and was a bit surprised to discover that in that election there were 185 straight fight contests - with the exception of a few in Northern Ireland all were Tory v Labour contests.
When David Steele became Liberal leader he insisted that they should contest every seat, before that they used to concentrate on regional targets to avoid lost deposits.
Back then the deposit was smaller but you needed a bigger percentage to get your money back, I think 12.5% compared to 5% now.
I think it was Under Jeremy Thorpe that the Liberals started to contest every seat, and nearly doubled their voteshare as a result.
Foxinsoxuk's title winners 3:1 Paul Nuttall's Klopp flops.
@greenmiranda: Saying John Major should pipe down when he was making a point about the importance of dissent in a democracy kinda makes his point for him.
You said that Cameron had 'opened the party up to individuals from many different backgrounds and walks of life'.
And I pointed that the Conservatives had previously had leaders who were female, Jewish, Born abroad and from 'down market' backgrounds so I'm not sure what these 'different backgrounds and walk of life' are.
It doesn't seem a random selection of people to me.
Liz Truss for example is the daughter of a university professor, is an Oxford PPE and was first a parliamentary candidate in 2001.
Sean Bailey certainly was someone of non-standard background but his career was snuffed out by the Cameroons, of whom he was critical.
Helen Grant was a defector from Labour - a smart career move.
And I pointed out that the party wasn't particularly diverse prior to Cameron's leadership, which was the context of my statement. You've said the party has had Jewish and female leaders - okay, that's not something I ever denied. But having one Jewish or a Female leader does not mean your party is particularly diverse, or even all that inclusive. You can have one person that happens to be leader that is 'different', but still tend to have a party that overall isn't that inclusive or diverse.
Regarding the A-List. Whenever did I say it was a random list? If it's a list that is aimed at making the party more diverse then it's not going to be a random list for a start.
Liz Truss went to a comprehensive. Her dad had a white-collar job, but she was hardly posh. Going to Oxford doesn't make someone posh.
I agree that it's sad the way Shaun Bailey was treated. I would have liked to have seen him in parliament.
Helen Grant defecting from Labour doesn't really change the fact that that she did not come from a posh background.
FPT: @Roger: "To violate someone by a compulsory test would be unacceptable and furthermore the social implications of getting the police involved in what is likely to be a closely knit religious family could be devastating. I'm afraid however much people think it's a crime that deserves punishment the best way of dealing with it is by an intense publicity campaign. "
Rubbish: when I was a child at school we automatically had health inspections by the school nurse which would have picked up FGM. A health check to detect whether a crime - a brutal crime - has been committed is not a violation.
The idea we shouldn't prosecute crimes because it might upset the perpetrators is utterly bizarre. And frankly gross: read up if you can on what is actually involved in cutting a girl, the pain involved at the time and the continuing pain for the rest of their lives, the pain involved in not being able to lose menstrual blood, for instance, and developing a cyst which has to be removed surgically and imagine that happening to young girls when they are tiny and throughout their teenage years and thereafter and never being able to enjoy sex.
It is an appalling crime. I don't give a fig for religious or cultural sensibilities. Let's call a spade a spade. It's barbaric and it should not be happening to British girls. Nor do I give two hoots about how close bloody knit the families are. Girls are being horribly maimed. Crimes are being committed. The answer is not some public information film, though that may be a part. A few prosecutions and children made wards of court pour encourager les autres would send a clear message about what can and cannot happen in our society.
We're not talking about advice on eating more fruit, for crying out loud.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
So it is. But that's no bad thing. Passionate debate makes the world march.
There is no debate. There is no evidence for religion, so it is like having a debate over whether snowflakes can be green or magenta. Perhaps they can, but as neither green nor magenta snowflakes have ever been recorded by any of the world's meteorological scientists, their possible existence makes very poor grounds for a debate.
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I think he was able and still performing his job when he died :
OK - So he has to hold onto the bench after he gets up for a second time, but he is clearly mentally capable and was able to deliver his speech on behalf of his constituent without problems.
What about an MP who is perhaps younger but develops Alzheimers though ?
Has there ever been a case of that occurring - I think that rather than someone's physical age is a potential real issue. Incapability.
Fair point but for somebody to carry on a full time job 21 years after retirement ages begs the question of how demanding the job is. I wouldn't let an 86 year old relative of mine travel from Manchester to London unaccompanied, the whole thing is ridiculous.
Dear Mr/Ms freetochoose: "You wouldn't let" someone else be free to choose?
(And welcome to PB by the way, I haven't noticed you posting before)
Thank you, you raise a good point. I know many people in their 80s, a few in their 90s, they are all respected and cared for but allowances are made for their forgetfulness and inability to carry out various tasks. I can't think of one who's relatives would allow them to travel 200 miles alone.
I maintain that an 86 year old should make way for somebody more physically and mentally capable. There are reasons why the state provides a pension to people in their 60s
There are 90+ year-olds who still drive and are fully independent, sometimes caring for family members as well. No allowances need to be made for them. People age at different rates & chronological age is not always a good guide.
Whether a person of that chronological age should do something that would give a younger person gainful employment is a different question.
Why, you could lead the sack of a major city while blind and in your mid-90s, so anything is possible I say.
I have just been checking some election results from 1970, and was a bit surprised to discover that in that election there were 185 straight fight contests - with the exception of a few in Northern Ireland all were Tory v Labour contests.
When David Steele became Liberal leader he insisted that they should contest every seat, before that they used to concentrate on regional targets to avoid lost deposits.
Back then the deposit was smaller but you needed a bigger percentage to get your money back, I think 12.5% compared to 5% now.
I think it was Under Jeremy Thorpe that the Liberals started to contest every seat, and nearly doubled their voteshare as a result.
Foxinsoxuk's title winners 3:1 Paul Nuttall's Klopp flops.
A great night to be a Leicester fan.
The Labour could learn a lesson from Leicester City.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
All intelligent people formulate beliefs as children.
Indeed. They are unlikely to form a belief that a bloke with a beard could walk on water unless told it repeatedly by someone in a position of authority, I dare say.
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
No we don't. I presume that if you're sat in the back seat of a car and see the driver heading straight for a wall at 70mph you'd sit their meekly and just let him "get on with the process".
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
So it is. But that's no bad thing. Passionate debate makes the world march.
There is no debate. There is no evidence for religion, so it is like having a debate over whether snowflakes can be green or magenta. Perhaps they can, but as neither green nor magenta snowflakes have ever been recorded by any of the world's meteorological scientists, their possible existence makes very poor grounds for a debate.
You don't wish there was debate.
That's a different matter from saying there is no debate.
You said that Cameron had 'opened the party up to individuals from many different backgrounds and walks of life'.
And I pointed that the Conservatives had previously had leaders who were female, Jewish, Born abroad and from 'down market' backgrounds so I'm not sure what these 'different backgrounds and walk of life' are.
It doesn't seem a random selection of people to me.
Liz Truss for example is the daughter of a university professor, is an Oxford PPE and was first a parliamentary candidate in 2001.
Sean Bailey certainly was someone of non-standard background but his career was snuffed out by the Cameroons, of whom he was critical.
Helen Grant was a defector from Labour - a smart career move.
And I pointed out that the party wasn't particularly diverse prior to Cameron's leadership, which was the context of my statement. You've said the party has had Jewish and female leaders - okay, that's not something I ever denied. But having one Jewish or a Female leader does not mean your party is particularly diverse, or even all that inclusive. You can have one person that happens to be leader that is 'different', but still tend to have a party that overall isn't that inclusive or diverse.
Regarding the A-List. Whenever did I say it was a random list? If it's a list that is aimed at making the party more diverse then it's not going to be a random list for a start.
Liz Truss went to a comprehensive. Her dad had a white-collar job, but she was hardly posh. Going to Oxford doesn't make someone posh.
I agree that it's sad the way Shaun Bailey was treated. I would have liked to have seen him in parliament.
Helen Grant defecting from Labour doesn't really change the fact that that she did not come from a posh background.
Anyway goodnight.
The A List had more people from Kensington & Chelsea than from Yorkshire & Lancashire combined.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
So it is. But that's no bad thing. Passionate debate makes the world march.
There is no debate. There is no evidence for religion, so it is like having a debate over whether snowflakes can be green or magenta. Perhaps they can, but as neither green nor magenta snowflakes have ever been recorded by any of the world's meteorological scientists, their possible existence makes very poor grounds for a debate.
You don't wish there was debate.
That's a different matter from saying there is no debate.
I wish there were enough grounds for a decent debate. But as there is no evidence for religion, there isn't. That's the problem. We could have a debate, but it would be hopelessly unbalanced.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
The sad thing is that the core motive of religion - making sense of our existence - is fascinating and honourable. Yet in the last few thousand years human beings have contrived to create a situation whereby we create outlandish stories, drum them into the brains of children, who then encounter rival outlandish stories drummed into the brains of other children.
My take is that the propensity to religious belief evolved as a way of ensuring that young warriors would be prepared to sacrifice themselves on the battlefield for their tribe (and genes) despite their intelligence and understanding of the finality of death. Nationalism serves a similar purpose nowadays.
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
No we don't. I presume that if you're sat in the back seat of a car and see the driver heading straight for a wall at 70mph you'd sit their meekly and just let him "get on with the process".
We remainers are not going away.
I am not suggesting that at all. Constructive critism is a benefit to negotiation but outright attacks and almost hysteria to stop something happening that has been voted for by the electorate is not proportionate. Everyone needs to give the PM the space to get on with the negotiation and encourage a successful conclusion for both sides
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I think he was able and still performing his job when he died :
OK - So he has to hold onto the bench after he gets up for a second time, but he is clearly mentally capable and was able to deliver his speech on behalf of his constituent without problems.
What about an MP who is perhaps younger but develops Alzheimers though ?
Has there ever been a case of that occurring - I think that rather than someone's physical age is a potential real issue. Incapability.
Fair point but for somebody to carry on a full time job 21 years after retirement ages begs the question of how demanding the job is. I wouldn't let an 86 year old relative of mine travel from Manchester to London unaccompanied, the whole thing is ridiculous.
Dear Mr/Ms freetochoose: "You wouldn't let" someone else be free to choose?
(And welcome to PB by the way, I haven't noticed you posting before)
Thank you, you raise a good point. I know many people in their 80s, a few in their 90s, they are all respected and cared for but allowances are made for their forgetfulness and inability to carry out various tasks...
I maintain that an 86 year old should make way for somebody more physically and mentally capable. There are reasons why the state provides a pension to people in their 60s
There are 90+ year-olds who still drive and are fully independent, sometimes caring for family members as well. No allowances need to be made for them. People age at different rates & chronological age is not always a good guide.
Whether a person of that chronological age should do something that would give a younger person gainful employment is a different question.
Why, you could lead the sack of a major city while blind and in your mid-90s, so anything is possible I say.
That's a desirable thing ? I prefer my major cities intact.
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
No we don't. I presume that if you're sat in the back seat of a car and see the driver heading straight for a wall at 70mph you'd sit their meekly and just let him "get on with the process".
We remainers are not going away.
I am not suggesting that at all. Constructive critism is a benefit to negotiation but outright attacks and almost hysteria to stop something happening that has been voted for by the electorate is not proportionate. Everyone needs to give the PM the space to get on with the negotiation and encourage a successful conclusion for both sides
But 'giving her space to get on' is not the same as 'constructive criticism is a benefit'. Yes, hysteria to prevent Brexit may not help, but those two options don't mix.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
So it is. But that's no bad thing. Passionate debate makes the world march.
There is no debate. There is no evidence for religion, so it is like having a debate over whether snowflakes can be green or magenta. Perhaps they can, but as neither green nor magenta snowflakes have ever been recorded by any of the world's meteorological scientists, their possible existence makes very poor grounds for a debate.
You don't wish there was debate.
That's a different matter from saying there is no debate.
I wish there were enough grounds for a decent debate. But as there is no evidence for religion, there isn't. That's the problem. We could have a debate, but it would be hopelessly unbalanced.
You think that your socialist, atheistic, beliefs are so self-evident that there is no need for debate, and therefore anyone who disagrees with you suffers from false consciousness.
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
No we don't. I presume that if you're sat in the back seat of a car and see the driver heading straight for a wall at 70mph you'd sit their meekly and just let him "get on with the process".
We remainers are not going away.
I am not suggesting that at all. Constructive critism is a benefit to negotiation but outright attacks and almost hysteria to stop something happening that has been voted for by the electorate is not proportionate. Everyone needs to give the PM the space to get on with the negotiation and encourage a successful conclusion for both sides
But 'giving her space to get on' is not the same as 'constructive criticism is a benefit'. Yes, hysteria to prevent Brexit may not help, but those two options don't mix.
It is as long as she listens to the constructive criticism and uses it to the benefit of the deal
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
I am not sure what your point is, are you saying these politicians should be stopped from giving their opinions? All this "metropolitan elite" stuff is really childish sloganising. I would hazard at guess that more people would see Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg as part of the "metropolitan elite" than John Major.
To be honest I would be more interested to read your critique if what John Major has said than just chanting "metropolitan elite" over and over.
Religion exists in a diferent domain, as do the visual and creative arts, which also cannot be explained scientifically. Religion is a way of comprehending and fashioning the world as well as appreciating both its beauty and horror.
Ancient peoples were more sophisticated than us in many ways. It is noticeable that all major religions antedate the printing press, or othe ways of mass communication. While often illiterate, these people were as intelligent as modern people, and substantially oral cultures. They explained the world in allegory and myth, and were usually sophisticated enough to understand the layers of meaning in a story. Ancient peoples spent a lot of time storytelling, and were much more skilled at it than we are as a result.
Take the feeding of the 5000. Does this make more sense if you take it literally (don't bother with a packed lunch if Jesus is preaching) or as an illustration that if we live adventurously, and are hungry for sustenance for our souls, then we will be fed? The bread and fishes are similtaneously real and symbolic, and have many further layers of meaning. Jesus taught in parables for this reason.
Storytelling, art, dance, music, and religion are nearly universal parts of human cultures, and while they can be explained anthropologically, they benefit from a more active participation. They need to be lived rather than studied.
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
I am not sure what your point is, are you saying these politicians should be stopped from giving their opinions? All this "metropolitan elite" stuff is really childish sloganising. I would hazard at guess that more people would see Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg as part of the "metropolitan elite" than John Major.
To be honest I would be more interested to read your critique if what John Major has said than just chanting "metropolitan elite" over and over.
It is because they are a clique of Metropolitan politicians who want to stop Brexit.
They are entitled to express an opiinion but a co-ordinated onslaught on the Government who are acting on the will of the people can only be seen as an attempt to say 'we know best' and the people got it wrong
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
I am not sure what your point is, are you saying these politicians should be stopped from giving their opinions? All this "metropolitan elite" stuff is really childish sloganising. I would hazard at guess that more people would see Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg as part of the "metropolitan elite" than John Major.
To be honest I would be more interested to read your critique if what John Major has said than just chanting "metropolitan elite" over and over.
If John Major wanted us to be committed to the EU, he should have signed us up to the Euro, Shengen, and everything else. Maybe he wanted to, but the "Bastards" stopped him. But, there it is. That was the watershed.
Carswell probably should leave. I cant see his vision of a nicely nicely party working. He boasts of his excellence in winning elections, but he has been MP in Clacton for over a decade now and it houses the most run down part of the country. The Frinton Conservative Club types love him, no one in Jaywick has ever heard of him. I contacted him on more than one occasion with feedback from Jaywick residents I got while canvassing, and he didn't reply apart from an auto generated email. He basically couldn't give a fuck about the most run down part of England, too busy making smart arse comments on tv and talking up his book
Ukip are doomed because the brief coalition of libertarians like Carswell and authoritarian control freaks like Banks has imploded. The ludicrous and constant in-fighting, people being sacked and reinstated, financial irregularities and fraud, their fascist and racist fringe and above all the loss of their main raison d'etre means their decline will only accelerate from this point.
I have just been checking some election results from 1970, and was a bit surprised to discover that in that election there were 185 straight fight contests - with the exception of a few in Northern Ireland all were Tory v Labour contests.
When David Steele became Liberal leader he insisted that they should contest every seat, before that they used to concentrate on regional targets to avoid lost deposits.
Back then the deposit was smaller but you needed a bigger percentage to get your money back, I think 12.5% compared to 5% now.
The Liberals contested over 500 seats at the February 1974 election and pretty well every GB seat at the October election. The Deposit was set at £150 in 1918 and remained at that level until raised to £500 in the mid-1980s. As you say , the percentage required to avoid loss of the Deposit was lowered from 12.5% to 5%.
Carswell probably should leave. I cant see his vision of a nicely nicely party working. He boasts of his excellence in winning elections, but he has been MP in Clacton for over a decade now and it houses the most run down part of the country. The Frinton Conservative Club types love him, no one in Jaywick has ever heard of him. I contacted him on more than one occasion with feedback from Jaywick residents I got while canvassing, and he didn't reply apart from an auto generated email. He basically couldn't give a fuck about the most run down part of England, too busy making smart arse comments on tv and talking up his book
Ukip are doomed because the brief coalition of libertarians like Carswell and authoritarian control freaks like Banks has imploded. The ludicrous and constant in-fighting, people being sacked and reinstated, financial irregularities and fraud, their fascist and racist fringe and above all the loss of their main raison d'etre means their decline will only accelerate from this point.
Would have thought so. The main reason is Farage leaving, it was always a one man band. Inevitable that when he left they would struggle
I've just seen this, it's a weird situation where an MP is 86. I can't think of a single job or profession where an 86 year old would be considered capable.
The Lords' has a few over 90 year olds, though as Lord Tyler pointed out on the BBC2 programme it is the best care home in London
Quite. RIP Kaufman but I'm afraid its farcical.
For an MP it is maybe too old but for a member of the Lords which is a revising chamber as long as they have not yet succumbed to dementia I see no reason they cannot stay in post into their 80s and 90s
I know several people in their 90s that I like very much, asking them to pass laws is utterly ridiculous, most of them can't order their own lunch.
Sir Winston Churchill was 90 when he stood down in 1964 he died a few months later. He rarely attended and never spoke in his last years.
No matter what his past reputation, his local association should have stopped him standing at the 1959 election. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
I'm afraid that clearly it does. The feted Denis Skinner is 85, he'll step down when he decides, nobody else. Somebody of that age is incapable of working without enormous assistance and great cost to the taxpayer, its ludicrous.
I mean an MP who is clearly going senile, Churchill had already had a stroke by 1959, Skinner seems to still be in good health, he'll probably see out the next three years.
David Attenborough is 90. He was obviously well past it at least 15 years ago :-) .
As for Skinner ... an awful self-obsessed little man in my view, but then I am no admirer of the far left. Ask some of his constituents what they think - far fewer are voting for him than 20 years ago. He was my MP for about 25 years.
The Labour leadership making excuses for Copeland because of "long term decline" should note that Dennis the Menace's vote share in Bolsover has fallen from 74% in 1997 to 51% in 2015. It will be vulnerable when he retires. I would say that Gloria de Piero in Ashfield has a better chance, despite the Devastation of Hoon. De Piero's main advantage is that she lives in the constituency and doesn't give an appearance of thinking she is better than her constituents.
Long term decline is significant as a background, but imo it contributed less to Lab losing Copeland than the Labour leadership omnishambles.
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
I am not sure what your point is, are you saying these politicians should be stopped from giving their opinions? All this "metropolitan elite" stuff is really childish sloganising. I would hazard at guess that more people would see Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg as part of the "metropolitan elite" than John Major.
To be honest I would be more interested to read your critique if what John Major has said than just chanting "metropolitan elite" over and over.
It is because they are a clique of Metropolitan politicians who want to stop Brexit.
They are entitled to express an opiinion but a co-ordinated onslaught on the Government who are acting on the will of the people can only be seen as an attempt to say 'we know best' and the people got it wrong
There isn't a clique trying to stop Brexit.. Leavers like to fantasise that there as it gives them something to rant about. What you have is a number of experienced politicians from all parties expressing their opinion that Brexit is going to be problematic.
You don't have to accept their opinion but they are entitled to express them.
It only seems like their is a coordinated onslaught because there are so few heavyweight Leave politicians acting as a counterbalance. Farage now seems more interested in Trump and Boris, Gove, IDS rarely say much. I have respect for Major and am interested in hearing his perspective - it is also worth bearing in mind that as well as the last 2 Tory PMs the current one (and her Chancellor) also believe we are doing the wrong thing. They are committed to carrying out the referendum result but that is another thing entirely.
Religion exists in a diferent domain, as do the visual and creative arts, which also cannot be explained scientifically. Religion is a way of comprehending and fashioning the world as well as appreciating both its beauty and horror.
Ancient peoples were more sophisticated than us in many ways. It is noticeable that all major religions antedate the printing press, or othe ways of mass communication. While often illiterate, these people were as intelligent as modern people, and substantially oral cultures. They explained the world in allegory and myth, and were usually sophisticated enough to understand the layers of meaning in a story. Ancient peoples spent a lot of time storytelling, and were much more skilled at it than we are as a result.
Take the feeding of the 5000. Does this make more sense if you take it literally (don't bother with a packed lunch if Jesus is preaching) or as an illustration that if we live adventurously, and are hungry for sustenance for our souls, then we will be fed? The bread and fishes are similtaneously real and symbolic, and have many further layers of meaning. Jesus taught in parables for this reason.
Storytelling, art, dance, music, and religion are nearly universal parts of human cultures, and while they can be explained anthropologically, they benefit from a o active participation. They need to be lived rather than studied.
How familiar, and how very strange, is the ancient world.
When Gibbon said "the people regarded every religion as equally true, the philosophers as equally false, the magistrates as equally useful" he described himself, not the Ronan Empire.
Sky back in full anti Brexit mode with Faisal Islam drooling over John Major's anti Brexit rant and Ed Conwy delighting in warnings about delaying Brexit until trade deals are in place.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
I am not sure what your point is, are you saying these politicians should be stopped from giving their opinions? All this "metropolitan elite" stuff is really childish sloganising. I would hazard at guess that more people would see Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg as part of the "metropolitan elite" than John Major.
To be honest I would be more interested to read your critique if what John Major has said than just chanting "metropolitan elite" over and over.
If John Major wanted us to be committed to the EU, he should have signed us up to the Euro, Shengen, and everything else. Maybe he wanted to, but the "Bastards" stopped him. But, there it is. That was the watershed.
Why would he need to do that in order to be committed to the EU? The EU was quite flexible and were perfectly OK with letting the UK opt out of Schengen and the Euro. There was no pressure to do either.
@greenmiranda: Saying John Major should pipe down when he was making a point about the importance of dissent in a democracy kinda makes his point for him.
Con turnout in the Lords tonight is really exceptional given the time of night.
The highest Con turnout I can remember was on the Tax Credits vote and that was under 220 - about 217 I think.
So to have 209 at this time of night is an absolutely massive effort.
Suggests that whilst they know they can reverse amendments in the Commons, they are very, very keen to win in the Lords in the first instance - presumably to diffuse the situation and prevent any adverse momentum building.
The biggest votes are expected at Report Stage next Tuesday - looks like they may well have 220 present then, at least during the afternoon.
Before then there is one more day of Committee - this Wednesday.
@greenmiranda: Saying John Major should pipe down when he was making a point about the importance of dissent in a democracy kinda makes his point for him.
@greenmiranda: Saying John Major should pipe down when he was making a point about the importance of dissent in a democracy kinda makes his point for him.
I think what we need to do is get back to basics.
Put up or shut up
I'll have to phone the cone hotline to see about that.
The idea of a communist child or a fascist child or a Christian child is absurd.
When I joined the YC's I must have suffered from false consciousness.
It's perfectly acceptable to describe someone brought up in Christian/Muslim/Hindu households by parents of that religion as a child of that religion. It is a description of their upbringing rather than of them specifically, it doesn't take a genius to see that surely?
What if they're not particularly religious parents?
Most likely children would be unlikely to hold any religious views or extreme views like communism were they not indoctrinated with them by their parents and schoolteachers from an early age. One of the challenges of globalisation is integration of peoples. It is damned hard to integrate when we are assigning human beings to sectarian silos at age five.
I personally regard religion as one of the most divisive forces in human history.
So it is. But that's no bad thing. Passionate debate makes the world march.
There is no debate. There is no evidence for religion, so it is like having a debate over whether snowflakes can be green or magenta. Perhaps they can, but as neither green nor magenta snowflakes have ever been recorded by any of the world's meteorological scientists, their possible existence makes very poor grounds for a debate.
You don't wish there was debate.
That's a different matter from saying there is no debate.
No, there is no debate. Russell's teapot. If you are a Christian you are obliged to have faith, that is to believe in God on the sole grounds that you believe in God. It is therefore actually heretical of you to assert that there is a debate.
@greenmiranda: Saying John Major should pipe down when he was making a point about the importance of dissent in a democracy kinda makes his point for him.
I think what we need to do is get back to basics.
Put up or shut up
I'll have to phone the cone hotline to see about that.
Comments
The key thing about Manchester Gorton isn't merely that it is a safe seat, but it is a core Corbynite demographic. Outside of London it doesn't get much more diverse than Rusholme and Levenshulme, and it's one of the 20 most student-heavy seats in the country (if memory serves). Loyal Labour voters (Mancunians don't vote Tory, almost as a matter of culture) and the precisely the demographics which used to defect to the Lib Dems but have been won back. It isn't even *that* Remain-skewed, it's like Islington but less wealthy and less Remain.
There's a reason the Lib Dems used to come reasonably close here: students and Iraq-angry Labour voters. But those same groups are Corbyn's key appeal.
Predictions:
Labour will walk it. Probably even increase their majority. This seat was made for Corbyn's Labour, and the students provide loads of activists.
Lib Dems should come second from their national revival and good activist base which remains despite the Council wipe-out of 2014 (though we got one back last year!). 10% minimum, 20% would be an achievement.
The Greens have been making headway in bits of South Manchester the last few years, so they could come second - but I imagine they will struggle to hold a unique appeal given Corbyn leads Labour and the Lib Dems aren't in Coalition any more (many haven't forgiven them yet, but each week and month a few more do). Plus they just aren't as good at the ground game.
I suspect the Tories will have quite a disappointing result: there just isn't the market for them in this sort of seat. But they are very popular these days, so I wouldn't rule out a 3rd place for them.
No matter what his past reputation, his local association should have stopped him standing at the 1959 election. It wouldn't happen nowadays.
(And welcome to PB by the way, I haven't noticed you posting before)
Moved to Ireland yet?
I maintain that an 86 year old should make way for somebody more physically and mentally capable. There are reasons why the state provides a pension to people in their 60s
Robert Mugabe wants to run for another term, by which time he'll be in his mid 90s. I imagine a lot of day to day stuff is taken out of his hands thesedays.
Back then the deposit was smaller but you needed a bigger percentage to get your money back, I think 12.5% compared to 5% now.
Whether a person of that chronological age should do something that would give a younger person gainful employment is a different question.
The polarisation of the debate and the themes from both sides are so boring and predictable and everyone needs to let Theresa May serve A50 and get on with the process.
Blair, Heseltine, Mandleson, Major, Clarke, Gina Miller and the HOL's all doing their pro EU tirade are just confirming that the Metropolitan elite have not got the message and are likely to attrack anger from the vast majority who are weary of it all and just want the process to start
Bring it on.
http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/deported-singaporean-woman-vows-to-fight-on-in-bid-to-return-to-britain-will-take-case-to
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/bangor-university-student-deportation-order-12665768
Foxinsoxuk's title winners 3:1 Paul Nuttall's Klopp flops.
A great night to be a Leicester fan.
And I pointed out that the party wasn't particularly diverse prior to Cameron's leadership, which was the context of my statement. You've said the party has had Jewish and female leaders - okay, that's not something I ever denied. But having one Jewish or a Female leader does not mean your party is particularly diverse, or even all that inclusive. You can have one person that happens to be leader that is 'different', but still tend to have a party that overall isn't that inclusive or diverse.
Regarding the A-List. Whenever did I say it was a random list? If it's a list that is aimed at making the party more diverse then it's not going to be a random list for a start.
Liz Truss went to a comprehensive. Her dad had a white-collar job, but she was hardly posh. Going to Oxford doesn't make someone posh.
I agree that it's sad the way Shaun Bailey was treated. I would have liked to have seen him in parliament.
Helen Grant defecting from Labour doesn't really change the fact that that she did not come from a posh background.
Anyway goodnight.
We remainers are not going away.
That's a different matter from saying there is no debate.
I prefer my major cities intact.
Although after my effort in Stoke maybe not
UKIP, Farage, Banks, Reckless et all are yesterday's news and are heading to irrelevance
https://twitter.com/douglascarswell/status/836281119448444928
To be honest I would be more interested to read your critique if what John Major has said than just chanting "metropolitan elite" over and over.
Ancient peoples were more sophisticated than us in many ways. It is noticeable that all major religions antedate the printing press, or othe ways of mass communication. While often illiterate, these people were as intelligent as modern people, and substantially oral cultures. They explained the world in allegory and myth, and were usually sophisticated enough to understand the layers of meaning in a story. Ancient peoples spent a lot of time storytelling, and were much more skilled at it than we are as a result.
Take the feeding of the 5000. Does this make more sense if you take it literally (don't bother with a packed lunch if Jesus is preaching) or as an illustration that if we live adventurously, and are hungry for sustenance for our souls, then we will be fed? The bread and fishes are similtaneously real and symbolic, and have many further layers of meaning. Jesus taught in parables for this reason.
Storytelling, art, dance, music, and religion are nearly universal parts of human cultures, and while they can be explained anthropologically, they benefit from a more active participation. They need to be lived rather than studied.
They are entitled to express an opiinion but a co-ordinated onslaught on the Government who are acting on the will of the people can only be seen as an attempt to say 'we know best' and the people got it wrong
As for Skinner ... an awful self-obsessed little man in my view, but then I am no admirer of the far left. Ask some of his constituents what they think - far fewer are voting for him than 20 years ago. He was my MP for about 25 years.
The Labour leadership making excuses for Copeland because of "long term decline" should note that Dennis the Menace's vote share in Bolsover has fallen from 74% in 1997 to 51% in 2015. It will be vulnerable when he retires. I would say that Gloria de Piero in Ashfield has a better chance, despite the Devastation of Hoon. De Piero's main advantage is that she lives in the constituency and doesn't give an appearance of thinking she is better than her constituents.
Long term decline is significant as a background, but imo it contributed less to Lab losing Copeland than the Labour leadership omnishambles.
Lab just 86 present out of 202 - though I guess some may have been there and abstained..
LD 79 out of 102.
https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/lords/lords-divisions/
You don't have to accept their opinion but they are entitled to express them.
It only seems like their is a coordinated onslaught because there are so few heavyweight Leave politicians acting as a counterbalance. Farage now seems more interested in Trump and Boris, Gove, IDS rarely say much. I have respect for Major and am interested in hearing his perspective - it is also worth bearing in mind that as well as the last 2 Tory PMs the current one (and her Chancellor) also believe we are doing the wrong thing. They are committed to carrying out the referendum result but that is another thing entirely.
When Gibbon said "the people regarded every religion as equally true, the philosophers as equally false, the magistrates as equally useful" he described himself, not the Ronan Empire.
Nighty-night all.
Restarts on Wednesday.
Why would he need to do that in order to be committed to the EU? The EU was quite flexible and were perfectly OK with letting the UK opt out of Schengen and the Euro. There was no pressure to do either.
The highest Con turnout I can remember was on the Tax Credits vote and that was under 220 - about 217 I think.
So to have 209 at this time of night is an absolutely massive effort.
Suggests that whilst they know they can reverse amendments in the Commons, they are very, very keen to win in the Lords in the first instance - presumably to diffuse the situation and prevent any adverse momentum building.
The biggest votes are expected at Report Stage next Tuesday - looks like they may well have 220 present then, at least during the afternoon.
Before then there is one more day of Committee - this Wednesday.
http://helmuthetzel.com/mini-made-in-holland/