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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With so much free polling data available LAB is wasting member

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With so much free polling data available LAB is wasting members’ money on the “should JC quit” 10k sample survey

The Mirror is reporting that Corbyn has commissioned a 10k sample poll to get views on his own future. It notes:-

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Ouch
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    This is starting to feel like the Gordon Brown era with Tory poll ratings that can't possibly be sustained.

    Except this is with them in government not opposition.

    This is a majority of c. 120 on existing boundaries and c. 130 on new boundaries...
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!
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    Never believe anything until has been officially denied?

    Labour denies conducting secret opinion poll to decide Jeremy Corbyn's future

    Party denies moves to canvass opinion on its leader as pressure mounts ahead of crucial by-elections

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-jeremy-corbyn-poll-secret-opinion-poll-mcdonnell-latest-a7589416.html
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    Labour is finished. Social democracy likewise. The political space is now monopolised by selfishness.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2017
    That new ICM poll again:

    Con 44% (+2)
    Lab 26% (-1)
    UKIP 13% (+1)
    LD 8% (-2)
    Green 4% (nc)
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    I expect this has been commissioned in the same way that most management consultancy is commissioned: the results will be well-known in advance but they will be used to bolster the position of the person who has commissioned it.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    I think Mike subconsciously wants Corbyn to be doing better. He has arranged the bars so that Corbyn's seem to be improving ... (over time, assuming a non-existent timeline x axis).
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    Hard to see how you could keep a poll with 10K respondents, and the questions asked, secret.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Am I right in saying thats the Tories biggest ICM lead ever? (since they started in 1992 anyway)
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    Majority of Britons opposed to Trump getting full state visit, poll suggests

    The Guardian/ICM poll also featured questions on Donald Trump, John Bercow and Brexit.

    This afternoon MPs will debate a petition signed by almost 2m people saying that, while Donald Trump should be free to visit the UK, he should not be honoured with a state visit.

    We asked about this, and it turns out a majority of Britons agree.

    Asked about the Trump visit, people were given three options.

    Trump should be prevented from visiting Britain: 18%

    Trump should be allowed to visit but not given a full state visit: 37%

    Trump should be given a full state visit: 32%

    Don’t know: 12%

    Majority of Britons (55%) are opposed to Donald Trump getting a full state visit, poll suggests.

    Bercow should stay as speaker because he is doing a good job: 30%

    Bercow should resign or be removed as speaker because he’s not impartial: 32%

    Don’t know: 38%

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/feb/20/paul-nuttall-ukip-chairmen-quit-in-protest-over-paul-nuttalls-hillsborough-falsehoold-politics-live
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    MTimT said:

    I think Mike subconsciously wants Corbyn to be doing better. He has arranged the bars so that Corbyn's seem to be improving ... (over time, assuming a non-existent timeline x axis).

    I've switched it round.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited February 2017
    Labour’s top secret 10k sample poll will not look far different from any other poll that we’ve seen over the past few month’s – unless of course, all 10K live in Islington.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    I think Mike subconsciously wants Corbyn to be doing better. He has arranged the bars so that Corbyn's seem to be improving ... (over time, assuming a non-existent timeline x axis).

    I've switched it round.
    :)
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    DeClareDeClare Posts: 483

    This is starting to feel like the Gordon Brown era with Tory poll ratings that can't possibly be sustained.

    Except this is with them in government not opposition.

    This is a majority of c. 120 on existing boundaries and c. 130 on new boundaries...
    Greens are on 4% so Centre-Right hegemony 57% Progressives (sic) 38% and the rest are presumably Scots or Welsh nationalists and Northern Irish.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Oh just re-read, highest lead since 1983! Mind boggling.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Applying the ICM poll to Stoke Central (which is a bit silly of course):

    Lab 34%
    Con 29%
    UKIP 23%
    LD 4%
    Green 4%
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,050
    edited February 2017

    Majority of Britons opposed to Trump getting full state visit, poll suggests

    The Guardian/ICM poll also featured questions on Donald Trump, John Bercow and Brexit.

    This afternoon MPs will debate a petition signed by almost 2m people saying that, while Donald Trump should be free to visit the UK, he should not be honoured with a state visit.

    We asked about this, and it turns out a majority of Britons agree.

    Asked about the Trump visit, people were given three options.

    Trump should be prevented from visiting Britain: 18%

    Trump should be allowed to visit but not given a full state visit: 37%

    Trump should be given a full state visit: 32%

    Don’t know: 12%

    Majority of Britons (55%) are opposed to Donald Trump getting a full state visit, poll suggests.

    Bercow should stay as speaker because he is doing a good job: 30%

    Bercow should resign or be removed as speaker because he’s not impartial: 32%

    Don’t know: 38%

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/feb/20/paul-nuttall-ukip-chairmen-quit-in-protest-over-paul-nuttalls-hillsborough-falsehoold-politics-live

    What's a full vs partial state visit? As implied by qualifying the state visit as full, as though there's another kind. He's already been offered one, we cannot justifiably take it away given the sorts we allowed before, but that may not mean full bells and whistles everywhere.

    I'd have preferred more bercow option. I don't think he should be removed right now but I don't think he is doing a good job.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    ICM. Wow.

    Con 44%
    █████████████████████████
    Lab 26%
    ███████████████
    UKIP 13%
    ███████▌
    LD 8%
    ████▌
    Green 4%
    ██▌


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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited February 2017

    Majority of Britons opposed to Trump getting full state visit, poll suggests

    The "majority of Britons" can go hang. My 5-6 with Hills is the important thing here, and I think May recognises that.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
    so what?
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
    With all due respect I think the Tories will take losing a few parish councils on low turnouts if they can win a big Westminster majority. The Lib Dems are the party for Richmond Park but these figures suggest the Tories are a national party (and that now includes Scotland).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited February 2017
    AndyJS said:

    Applying the ICM poll to Stoke Central (which is a bit silly of course):

    Lab 34%
    Con 29%
    UKIP 23%
    LD 4%
    Green 4%

    Governing parties never do as well at BEs as at the GEs. So a result like that for the Tories should send Labour into panic.

    Copeland is well gone if the Tories get that close in Stoke too - local candidate exceptionalism just isn't that strong no matter how bad Snell is, or how good Troughton is.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2017

    ICM. Wow.

    Con 44%
    █████████████████████████
    Lab 26%
    ███████████████
    UKIP 13%
    ███████▌
    LD 8%
    ████▌
    Green 4%
    ██▌


    LDs, UKIP and Greens all the same as at GE2015. Tories up 6 points, Lab down 5.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "According to ICM’s Martin Boon, only three other polls in this series (dating from May 1983, when ICM was Marplan) have given the Tories a higher lead over Labour. Two of those polls were just before the 1983 general election, when Margaret Thatcher crushed Michael Foot, and the other was in June 2008, when Gordon Brown’s premiership was at a low point.
    At 26%, Labour is just one point above the lowest it has ever reached in this series (25%, which it hit in June 2008 and August 2009).
    But, at 44%, the Conservatives are some way off the highest they have reached in this series, the 47.5% they reached in May 1983."


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/feb/20/paul-nuttall-ukip-chairmen-quit-in-protest-over-paul-nuttalls-hillsborough-falsehoold-politics-live?page=with:block-58aaec1ce4b0aa06fafde7f6#block-58aaec1ce4b0aa06fafde7f6
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited February 2017
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
    With all due respect I think the Tories will take losing a few parish councils on low turnouts if they can win a big Westminster majority. The Lib Dems are the party for Richmond Park but these figures suggest the Tories are a national party (and that now includes Scotland).
    Several of the seats had high turnouts = 2 in excess of 50% and of course none were parish council elections . There seems to be some weird fixation amongst Conservatives on here to think keeping describing major council elections as parish elections makes the bad Conservative performance in them ok .
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited February 2017
    AndyJS said:

    ICM. Wow.

    Con 44%
    █████████████████████████
    Lab 26%
    ███████████████
    UKIP 13%
    ███████▌
    LD 8%
    ████▌
    Green 4%
    ██▌


    LDs, UKIP and Greens all the same as at GE2015. Tories up 6 points, Lab down 5.
    labour is still too high, a fair few of those 26% will not vote IMHO rather than vote for Corbyn. 20% is nearer the mark IMHO
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    Pulpstar said:

    Majority of Britons opposed to Trump getting full state visit, poll suggests

    The "majority of Britons" can go hang. My 5-6 with Hills is the important thing here, and I think May recognises that.
    I'm sure she recognises that you are vastly more important than the rest of us put together :o

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    Majority of Britons opposed to Trump getting full state visit, poll suggests

    The Guardian/ICM poll also featured questions on Donald Trump, John Bercow and Brexit.

    This afternoon MPs will debate a petition signed by almost 2m people saying that, while Donald Trump should be free to visit the UK, he should not be honoured with a state visit.

    We asked about this, and it turns out a majority of Britons agree.

    Asked about the Trump visit, people were given three options.

    Trump should be prevented from visiting Britain: 18%

    Trump should be allowed to visit but not given a full state visit: 37%

    Trump should be given a full state visit: 32%

    Don’t know: 12%

    Majority of Britons (55%) are opposed to Donald Trump getting a full state visit, poll suggests.

    That's bad analysis because of the bias to the middle option.
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    I expect this has been commissioned in the same way that most management consultancy is commissioned: the results will be well-known in advance but they will be used to bolster the position of the person who has commissioned it.

    If, as reported, "no-one is supposed to know about it", and "Even the people who signed off the contract aren’t allowed to see the questions, let alone the results" then who will be 'bolstering' Corbyn's position, as no-one will have seen the poll?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Applying the ICM poll to Stoke Central (which is a bit silly of course):

    Lab 34%
    Con 29%
    UKIP 23%
    LD 4%
    Green 4%

    Governing parties never do as well at BEs as at the GEs. So a result like that for the Tories should send Labour into panic.

    Copeland is well gone if the Tories get that close in Stoke too - local candidate exceptionalism just isn't that strong no matter how bad Snell is, or how good Troughton is.
    I'm not convinced Labour will lose Copeland. It's so isolated that it may buck the national trend in a big way.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Majority of Britons opposed to Trump getting full state visit, poll suggests

    The Guardian/ICM poll also featured questions on Donald Trump, John Bercow and Brexit.

    This afternoon MPs will debate a petition signed by almost 2m people saying that, while Donald Trump should be free to visit the UK, he should not be honoured with a state visit.

    We asked about this, and it turns out a majority of Britons agree.

    Asked about the Trump visit, people were given three options.

    Trump should be prevented from visiting Britain: 18%

    Trump should be allowed to visit but not given a full state visit: 37%

    Trump should be given a full state visit: 32%

    Don’t know: 12%

    Majority of Britons (55%) are opposed to Donald Trump getting a full state visit, poll suggests.

    That's bad analysis because of the bias to the middle option.
    Only 18% do not want Trump to visit would be the headline I'd draw from those results.
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    DeClareDeClare Posts: 483

    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
    Those are only council by-elections, they are virtually meaningless in determining national voting intentions.
    If a General Election were held this Thursday the LDs would get nothing like 26.2% although it's clear they would recoup a lot of their 2014 losses and probably end up with 30-40 seats.
    I know opinion polls can be wrong but not THAT wrong!
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    I expect this has been commissioned in the same way that most management consultancy is commissioned: the results will be well-known in advance but they will be used to bolster the position of the person who has commissioned it.

    If, as reported, "no-one is supposed to know about it", and "Even the people who signed off the contract aren’t allowed to see the questions, let alone the results" then who will be 'bolstering' Corbyn's position, as no-one will have seen the poll?
    I didn't name Jeremy Corbyn.
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    I suspect the Tories could win an overall majority even if their manifesto promised to kill all the Labour supporters.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    This is starting to feel like the Gordon Brown era with Tory poll ratings that can't possibly be sustained.

    Except this is with them in government not opposition.

    This is a majority of c. 120 on existing boundaries and c. 130 on new boundaries...
    Have you factored in swing back? ;)
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    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
    With all due respect I think the Tories will take losing a few parish councils on low turnouts if they can win a big Westminster majority. The Lib Dems are the party for Richmond Park but these figures suggest the Tories are a national party (and that now includes Scotland).
    Is Tedious Senior still claiming there were real elections in January and February? There haven't been any real elections since May and the next real elections are in May.
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    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    AndyJS said:

    Applying the ICM poll to Stoke Central (which is a bit silly of course):

    Lab 34%
    Con 29%
    UKIP 23%
    LD 4%
    Green 4%

    Only needs the Labour-LD and Tory-UKIP swings to be a bit bigger...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    May's not having a honeymoon. She's having a year-long holiday with her new husband, staying in the best hotels, and with lots of great sex. It's the ultra-honeymoon. It makes normal honeymoons seem like a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    May's not having a honeymoon. She's having a year-long holiday with her new husband, staying in the best hotels, and with lots of great sex. It's the ultra-honeymoon. It makes normal honeymoons seem like a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby.

    Sounds like a SeanT anecdote...
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    I see nobody has yet declared that ICM is the:

    GOLD STANDARD
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    I expect this has been commissioned in the same way that most management consultancy is commissioned: the results will be well-known in advance but they will be used to bolster the position of the person who has commissioned it.

    That is spot on.
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    I suspect the Tories could win an overall majority even if their manifesto promised to kill all the Labour supporters.

    Have you considered getting professional help?
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited February 2017
    In 18 months time the tories won't be on 44%.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    I suspect the Tories could win an overall majority even if their manifesto promised to kill all the Labour supporters.

    That might win round some of UKIP's 13%
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2017

    I suspect the Tories could win an overall majority even if their manifesto promised to kill all the Labour supporters.

    The Tories will probably lose Bath and Cheltenham to the LDs while gaining seats like Darlington and Scunthorpe from Labour.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited February 2017
    Re: Stoke

    If the Stoke 2015 start point is Lab 39 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 4, an eighteen point swing from Lab-Lib creates Lab 21 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 22.

    Is Corbyn that disastrous? Very possibly.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    Scott_P said:

    May's not having a honeymoon. She's having a year-long holiday with her new husband, staying in the best hotels, and with lots of great sex. It's the ultra-honeymoon. It makes normal honeymoons seem like a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby.

    Sounds like a SeanT anecdote...
    I was trying to work him into it, but decided the thought of SeanT and May on a sex-laden holiday together slightly too disturbing. Also, I doubt she does any drugs ... ;)
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983
    Pong said:

    In 18 months time the tories won't be on 44%.

    Maybe 50%.
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    Pong said:

    In 18 months time the tories won't be on 44%.

    Higher or lower?
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    MTimT said:

    This is starting to feel like the Gordon Brown era with Tory poll ratings that can't possibly be sustained.

    Except this is with them in government not opposition.

    This is a majority of c. 120 on existing boundaries and c. 130 on new boundaries...
    Have you factored in swing back? ;)
    https://www.ncpolitics.uk/2015/04/swingback-stasis-comparison-phone-vs-online-polls.html/

    From this point in the last parliament the swingback wasn't that great, the big plunge came between Feb and May 2012.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983

    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
    That's true, but also irrelevant. ICM are not asking people how they would vote in local council by-elections.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,050
    chestnut said:

    Re: Stoke

    If the Stoke 2015 start point is Lab 39 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 4, an eighteen point swing from Lab-Lib creates Lab 21 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 22.

    Is Corbyn that disastrous? Very possibly.

    People have been expecting his terrible leadership to impact on by-elections, and they haven't demonstrably IIRC. Stoke seems safe as houses as a result, and Copeland possibly safer than expected given some local issues and what is apparently a decent local candidate.
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    I suspect the Tories could win an overall majority even if their manifesto promised to kill all the Labour supporters.

    Makes winning future elections easier when you have carried out your promises :-)
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    May's not having a honeymoon. She's having a year-long holiday with her new husband, staying in the best hotels, and with lots of great sex. It's the ultra-honeymoon. It makes normal honeymoons seem like a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby.

    That's exactly the wrong way round. It's precisely because the honeymoon is a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby that the response is so enthusiastic. The groom isn't going to be distracted by what else is going on or the available alternatives.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Labour is finished. Social democracy likewise. The political space is now monopolised by selfishness.

    You think people vote for a party who promises to takes money away from people who are richer than and give some if it to themselves, is not selfish? Or to take money away from those that operate in the private sector to spend more on public services where they work ?

    Don't be under any illusion that many people vote for more taxation for anything other than hard pure self interest.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    FPT @Tykejohnno

    My personal favourite is this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZBLqkQLBb4
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    I suspect the Tories could win an overall majority even if their manifesto promised to kill all the Labour supporters.

    Have you considered getting professional help?
    You may not want to kill lefties (not one of whom has ever created a penny's wealth - we consider it selfish to do so) but quite a few right-wingers I've met - on both sides of the pond - have certainly wanted to kill me. So have several black activists, Trots, radical feminists and others.

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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited February 2017
    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    Re: Stoke

    If the Stoke 2015 start point is Lab 39 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 4, an eighteen point swing from Lab-Lib creates Lab 21 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 22.

    Is Corbyn that disastrous? Very possibly.

    People have been expecting his terrible leadership to impact on by-elections, and they haven't demonstrably IIRC. Stoke seems safe as houses as a result, and Copeland possibly safer than expected given some local issues and what is apparently a decent local candidate.
    The leader's movements have been dead giveaways in the most recent UK GE, the referendum and in the POTUS election.

    What is May doing there?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075

    May's not having a honeymoon. She's having a year-long holiday with her new husband, staying in the best hotels, and with lots of great sex. It's the ultra-honeymoon. It makes normal honeymoons seem like a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby.

    That's exactly the wrong way round. It's precisely because the honeymoon is a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby that the response is so enthusiastic. The groom isn't going to be distracted by what else is going on or the available alternatives.
    Okay then. But as it's lasting longer than a weekend, it's a couple who went to Grimsby for their honeymoon and loved it so much they decided to chuck in their jobs and stay there for months.
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    This has the feel to the run up to Oldham.

    Pretty much pointer had it as Labour were deep in trouble, all the mood music was awful them.

    Yet they won with an increase majority.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    It's 45-25 pre-adjustment, and Labour's best group from the referendum is 'Did Not Vote'.

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,050
    edited February 2017
    chestnut said:

    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    Re: Stoke

    If the Stoke 2015 start point is Lab 39 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 4, an eighteen point swing from Lab-Lib creates Lab 21 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 22.

    Is Corbyn that disastrous? Very possibly.

    People have been expecting his terrible leadership to impact on by-elections, and they haven't demonstrably IIRC. Stoke seems safe as houses as a result, and Copeland possibly safer than expected given some local issues and what is apparently a decent local candidate.
    The leader's movements have been dead giveaways in the most recent UK GE, the referendum and in the POTUS election.

    What is May doing there?
    Hoping to kill the UKIP threat by showing the Tories are either the number one option or number two in all seats. WIth UKIP unlikely to win the seat, better the Tories come second. Just a guess. If UKIP is a busted flush the Tories will hope, particularly with Labour's current woes, that they are the biggest beneficiaries. That'd be better long term than UKIP winning the seat, and more probable than not he Tories winning
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    Lawks, UKIP last matched at 3.95 in Stoke Central.

    What would pbers regard as a fair price for UKIP in Stoke Central right now?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983

    This has the feel to the run up to Oldham.

    Pretty much pointer had it as Labour were deep in trouble, all the mood music was awful them.

    Yet they won with an increase majority.

    Labour's standing has deteriorated since then, but I'd still back them to hold Stoke (easily) and Copeland (narrowly).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    Re: Stoke

    If the Stoke 2015 start point is Lab 39 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 4, an eighteen point swing from Lab-Lib creates Lab 21 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 22.

    Is Corbyn that disastrous? Very possibly.

    People have been expecting his terrible leadership to impact on by-elections, and they haven't demonstrably IIRC. Stoke seems safe as houses as a result, and Copeland possibly safer than expected given some local issues and what is apparently a decent local candidate.
    The leader's movements have been dead giveaways in the most recent UK GE, the referendum and in the POTUS election.

    What is May doing there?
    Hoping to kill the UKIP threat by showing the Tories are either the number one option or number two in all seats. WIth UKIP unlikely to win the seat, better the Tories come second. Just a guess.
    Cementing UKIP to 3rd place does both Corbyn and May a favour.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited February 2017
    Dear Obama

    Wall Street Journal
    Murder rates in Chicago, Baltimore, Milwaukee and Memphis have returned to levels not seen since the 1990s https://t.co/Rzw0lYHrDY
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    This is starting to feel like the Gordon Brown era with Tory poll ratings that can't possibly be sustained.

    Except this is with them in government not opposition.

    This is a majority of c. 120 on existing boundaries and c. 130 on new boundaries...
    Have you factored in swing back? ;)
    https://www.ncpolitics.uk/2015/04/swingback-stasis-comparison-phone-vs-online-polls.html/

    From this point in the last parliament the swingback wasn't that great, the big plunge came between Feb and May 2012.
    Still seems to be about +3%. So that would put the Tories on 47%. Close to the historic high.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Matthew Goodwin ‏@GoodwinMJ 2h2 hours ago

    In latest Opinion Way poll Marine Le Pen makes 2nd round & polls 42% (her highest yet vs Macron) or 44% (vs Fillon)"

    http://bit.ly/2m3xMVw
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Lawks, UKIP last matched at 3.95 in Stoke Central.

    What would pbers regard as a fair price for UKIP in Stoke Central right now?

    About 5.
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    This has the feel to the run up to Oldham.

    Pretty much pointer had it as Labour were deep in trouble, all the mood music was awful them.

    Yet they won with an increase majority.

    If I hadn't committed my maximum exposure, I'd be topping up on Labour in both by elections.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    edited February 2017
    tlg86 said:

    I see nobody has yet declared that ICM is the:

    GOLD STANDARD

    Sorry, I was away :smiley:

    Edit: 44%? Gold is too low of a standard for ICM :D
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    notme said:

    Labour is finished. Social democracy likewise. The political space is now monopolised by selfishness.

    You think people vote for a party who promises to takes money away from people who are richer than and give some if it to themselves, is not selfish? Or to take money away from those that operate in the private sector to spend more on public services where they work ?

    Don't be under any illusion that many people vote for more taxation for anything other than hard pure self interest.
    I am retired now but I always refused to work in the private sector. The only reason anyone works there is greed. What I didn't appreciate at the time was how many public sector workers were also full of greed.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    May's not having a honeymoon. She's having a year-long holiday with her new husband, staying in the best hotels, and with lots of great sex. It's the ultra-honeymoon. It makes normal honeymoons seem like a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby.

    Sounds like a SeanT anecdote...
    I was trying to work him into it, but decided the thought of SeanT and May on a sex-laden holiday together slightly too disturbing. Also, I doubt she does any drugs ... ;)
    HMM. At this very moment i am headed on a train down to drizzly Devon, where I am spending a week on my own in a cottage in the middle of Dartmoor. Researching the feeling of the isolating moorland winter for my new thriller. And I'll be writing the thriller, too.

    I doubt i will have a real human conversation, face to face, for the entire week.

    A boozy weekend in Grimsby doesn't seem so bad right now. As an alternative.
    The Widecombe-in-the-Moor area is very nice, I've been there a couple of times.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    AndyJS said:

    "Matthew Goodwin ‏@GoodwinMJ 2h2 hours ago

    In latest Opinion Way poll Marine Le Pen makes 2nd round & polls 42% (her highest yet vs Macron) or 44% (vs Fillon)"

    http://bit.ly/2m3xMVw

    Squeaky bum time for the French establishment?
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    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215

    This has the feel to the run up to Oldham.

    Pretty much pointer had it as Labour were deep in trouble, all the mood music was awful them.

    Yet they won with an increase majority.

    Labour had a good candidate in Oldham.

    Snell is an utter clown.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    notme said:

    Labour is finished. Social democracy likewise. The political space is now monopolised by selfishness.

    You think people vote for a party who promises to takes money away from people who are richer than and give some if it to themselves, is not selfish? Or to take money away from those that operate in the private sector to spend more on public services where they work ?

    Don't be under any illusion that many people vote for more taxation for anything other than hard pure self interest.
    I am retired now but I always refused to work in the private sector. The only reason anyone works there is greed. What I didn't appreciate at the time was how many public sector workers were also full of greed.
    Balls.

    The only reason most people work in either sector is to do what they need to to make a living.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    May's not having a honeymoon. She's having a year-long holiday with her new husband, staying in the best hotels, and with lots of great sex. It's the ultra-honeymoon. It makes normal honeymoons seem like a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby.

    Sounds like a SeanT anecdote...
    I was trying to work him into it, but decided the thought of SeanT and May on a sex-laden holiday together slightly too disturbing. Also, I doubt she does any drugs ... ;)
    HMM. At this very moment i am headed on a train down to drizzly Devon, where I am spending a week on my own in a cottage in the middle of Dartmoor. Researching the feeling of the isolating moorland winter for my new thriller. And I'll be writing the thriller, too.

    I doubt i will have a real human conversation, face to face, for the entire week.

    A boozy weekend in Grimsby doesn't seem so bad right now. As an alternative.
    Hope you enjoy the trip. I'm quite jealous - after two and a half years looking after a child, I'd love to get away for a week on my own, even if it meant staying in a tent on Dartmoor. In fact, especially if it involved staying in a tent on Dartmoor ... :)

    I recently read The Fire Child. Sadly I didn't find it anywhere near as good as the Ice Twins: oddly you didn't really capture the essence of Cornwall well, at least in my eyes. Perhaps you were overly familiar with it? Also, the underlying mystery didn't feel as strong.

    Still an enjoyable read though. Thanks.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    notme said:

    Labour is finished. Social democracy likewise. The political space is now monopolised by selfishness.

    You think people vote for a party who promises to takes money away from people who are richer than and give some if it to themselves, is not selfish? Or to take money away from those that operate in the private sector to spend more on public services where they work ?

    Don't be under any illusion that many people vote for more taxation for anything other than hard pure self interest.
    I am retired now but I always refused to work in the private sector. The only reason anyone works there is greed. What I didn't appreciate at the time was how many public sector workers were also full of greed.
    What a load of unvarnished bollocks. I think you view says more about yourself than about others.

    There are plenty of people in, say, the drug discovery business, or any number of innovative product and service companies, where the personal drive is to improve the world.

    Indeed, most of the research on the matter I've seen is that people who tend to be financially successful in innovative fields are so not because they seek profit, but that they are doing what they like to do and what they are driven to do, and it is that passion that helps them succeed (putting in the effort, shrugging off the setbacks, overcoming the obstacles).

    So you have it exactly the wrong way around. People who tend to be most financially successful in innovation fields are so because they were not driven by money but by passion.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,399
    ICM truly catastrophic for Labour. I wonder if their cheque has been cashed? Might save a few bob.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Brom said:

    Oh just re-read, highest lead since 1983! Mind boggling.

    Mori also had a lead of 18% last Autumn.
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    DeClareDeClare Posts: 483
    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:

    Re: Stoke

    If the Stoke 2015 start point is Lab 39 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 4, an eighteen point swing from Lab-Lib creates Lab 21 UKIP 23 Con 23 LD 22.

    Is Corbyn that disastrous? Very possibly.

    People have been expecting his terrible leadership to impact on by-elections, and they haven't demonstrably IIRC. Stoke seems safe as houses as a result, and Copeland possibly safer than expected given some local issues and what is apparently a decent local candidate.
    The leader's movements have been dead giveaways in the most recent UK GE, the referendum and in the POTUS election.

    What is May doing there?
    Hoping to kill the UKIP threat by showing the Tories are either the number one option or number two in all seats. WIth UKIP unlikely to win the seat, better the Tories come second. Just a guess. If UKIP is a busted flush the Tories will hope, particularly with Labour's current woes, that they are the biggest beneficiaries. That'd be better long term than UKIP winning the seat, and more probable than not he Tories winning
    UKIP winning at Stoke would mean that Corbyn is finished and gone before the end of this year,
    It's in the Tory party's interests to keep him there as long as possible, if he's still there on this date in 2020 it will be too late to replace him and he will lead Labour to Armourgeddon.
    Even if Brexit turns out badly and the EU is seen as a success by then, it still won't help Labour if Corbyn is their leader.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    notme said:

    Labour is finished. Social democracy likewise. The political space is now monopolised by selfishness.

    You think people vote for a party who promises to takes money away from people who are richer than and give some if it to themselves, is not selfish? Or to take money away from those that operate in the private sector to spend more on public services where they work ?

    Don't be under any illusion that many people vote for more taxation for anything other than hard pure self interest.
    I am retired now but I always refused to work in the private sector. The only reason anyone works there is greed. What I didn't appreciate at the time was how many public sector workers were also full of greed.
    The only reason anyone works there is greed.

    what guff

    convenience, child care, lifestyle for starters

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    What's really notable about this poll is its normality. You don't look at it and think "wow, it must be an outlier".
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    justin124 said:

    Brom said:

    Oh just re-read, highest lead since 1983! Mind boggling.

    Mori also had a lead of 18% last Autumn.
    Mori has always been susceptible to outliers, it was them who came up with the 52% "Con Gain Glasgow" poll in the Gordon Brown era.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,050
    DanSmith said:

    This has the feel to the run up to Oldham.

    Pretty much pointer had it as Labour were deep in trouble, all the mood music was awful them.

    Yet they won with an increase majority.

    Labour had a good candidate in Oldham.

    Snell is an utter clown.
    In donkey rosette country, and where the stated prime challenger is a bigger clown, that won't matter.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144

    Labour is finished. Social democracy likewise. The political space is now monopolised by selfishness.

    Welcome to the Old Reality.....
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Finally, we have clarification on just how many hours remain to save the NHS (spoiler alert, it's 72):

    http://labourlist.org/2017/02/exclusive-three-days-to-save-the-nhs-in-west-cumbria-by-election-candidate-says/
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Sean_F said:

    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
    That's true, but also irrelevant. ICM are not asking people how they would vote in local council by-elections.
    True , ICM are asking people how they would vote in a non existent General Election .
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    May's not having a honeymoon. She's having a year-long holiday with her new husband, staying in the best hotels, and with lots of great sex. It's the ultra-honeymoon. It makes normal honeymoons seem like a wet winter's weekend in Grimsby.

    Sounds like a SeanT anecdote...
    I was trying to work him into it, but decided the thought of SeanT and May on a sex-laden holiday together slightly too disturbing. Also, I doubt she does any drugs ... ;)
    HMM. At this very moment i am headed on a train down to drizzly Devon, where I am spending a week on my own in a cottage in the middle of Dartmoor. Researching the feeling of the isolating moorland winter for my new thriller. And I'll be writing the thriller, too.

    I doubt i will have a real human conversation, face to face, for the entire week.

    A boozy weekend in Grimsby doesn't seem so bad right now. As an alternative.
    The Widecombe-in-the-Moor area is very nice, I've been there a couple of times.
    That's exactly where I'm going (nearly). A little cottage about a mile from Widecombe.
    Very nice. I stayed in a farmhouse just outside Kingsbridge, last week.

    The thing about Devon is that you don't need to stray far from a main road to be really isolated (admittedly, there is only one main road, the M5/A38).
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    edited February 2017

    What's really notable about this poll is its normality. You don't look at it and think "wow, it must be an outlier".

    Probably is a tad too high for the Tories, I just can't see them getting that high of a vote in a GE.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    PlatoSaid said:

    Dear Obama

    Wall Street Journal
    Murder rates in Chicago, Baltimore, Milwaukee and Memphis have returned to levels not seen since the 1990s https://t.co/Rzw0lYHrDY

    Yet the first paragraph of the report says: "even as crime nationally is near historic lows."

    The story is much more complex than can be detailed in a tweet, or in your stupidly pointless two-word addition.

    I'm unsure why you appear to wish to blame Obama for this. You might want to at least partially blame the gun-obsessed Republicans.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    RobD said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see nobody has yet declared that ICM is the:

    GOLD STANDARD

    Sorry, I was away :smiley:

    Edit: 44%? Gold is too low of a standard for ICM :D
    Double Platinum?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,050
    RobD said:

    Finally, we have clarification on just how many hours remain to save the NHS (spoiler alert, it's 72):

    http://labourlist.org/2017/02/exclusive-three-days-to-save-the-nhs-in-west-cumbria-by-election-candidate-says/

    With all these times there's only hours to save it, this has the feel of a patient that is circling the drain and cannot be truly saved.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    Sean_F said:

    Brom said:

    Tories on 44%, Lib Dems on 8%. Wow!

    Real elections Jan/Feb Con 20.5% Lib Dem 26.2%
    Conservatives defended 7 seats in Jan/Feb held 2 lost 5 1 to Inds 4 to Lib Dems . 4 more seats being defended this week
    That's true, but also irrelevant. ICM are not asking people how they would vote in local council by-elections.
    True , ICM are asking people how they would vote in a non existent General Election .
    Yawn. Do you expect the Tories to be closer to 20.5% or 44% when the next GE comes?
This discussion has been closed.