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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why on earth did LAB select a candidate for the Stoke by-elect

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,034

    Nigel Farage Refuses To Campaign Anymore For Paul Nuttall In Stoke Amid Splits At Top Of Ukip

    The former Ukip leader is not happy with how the campaign is being run

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-stoke-ukip-duffy_uk_58a34272e4b03df370daac5d?

    Here we go. Who on PB was on about a book on how long Nuttall would last the other day?
    I am enjoying this book. Corbyn looks like the main villain right now.
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    One thing that strikes me on UKIP. When they no longer have MEPs thanks to Brexit, they will lose huge resources in staff and cash.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,254

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    middle class prude
    There is a far better programme to watch tonight on BBC4 at 9 pm: Life of a Mountain - A Year on Blencathra. He did the film about Scafell Pike. Glorious.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    The Midlands is a quadrilateral, with corners at The Wash, the Humber, the Mersey and the Severn. Outside of that is, going clockwise, is the North, East Anglia, the South and Wales.

    That puts Manchester just barely in the North, which doesn't seem right. The North/Midlands boundary should be somewhere between Macclesfield and Stoke.
    The North begins, precisely, half a mile north of Nantwich, Cheshire.

    You can actually hear the accents change, quite suddenly.
    Wrong. The North begins in Guildford.
    Guildford Street, Stoke?
    No. Stoke Park, Guildford. ;-)
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,222

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    The Midlands is a quadrilateral, with corners at The Wash, the Humber, the Mersey and the Severn. Outside of that is, going clockwise, is the North, East Anglia, the South and Wales.

    That puts Manchester just barely in the North, which doesn't seem right. The North/Midlands boundary should be somewhere between Macclesfield and Stoke.
    The North begins, precisely, half a mile north of Nantwich, Cheshire.

    You can actually hear the accents change, quite suddenly.
    Wrong. The North begins in Guildford.
    Guildford Street, Stoke?
    Or Stoke Park, Guildford?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    middle class prude
    There is a far better programme to watch tonight on BBC4 at 9 pm: Life of a Mountain - A Year on Blencathra. He did the film about Scafell Pike. Glorious.
    I had to laugh

    The Archbishop of Canterbury's father seemed to have a similar problem to Roger's deplorables
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,942
    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,034
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    Cameron hastened to close the container, but the whole contents had escaped except for one thing that lay at the bottom
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    you mean we should have pre-screened and disenfranchised anyone who would vote leave ?
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    Pulpstar said:

    SeanT said:

    The Midlands is a quadrilateral, with corners at The Wash, the Humber, the Mersey and the Severn. Outside of that is, going clockwise, is the North, East Anglia, the South and Wales.

    That puts Manchester just barely in the North, which doesn't seem right. The North/Midlands boundary should be somewhere between Macclesfield and Stoke.
    The North begins, precisely, half a mile north of Nantwich, Cheshire.

    You can actually hear the accents change, quite suddenly.
    When are we building a wall?
    Around Hull ?
    There's nothing wrong with Hull, a place I know well.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    edited February 2017
    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    The evidence is mounting that not only is Piers a total c***, he's also a pretty thick one.

    twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/831552409302339588

    Isn't the bragging part about her retweeting it? Not sure why the authorship of the list matters.
    No one would doubt that Piers is a fawning little creep when it suits him, and is unable to keep tabs on all the sycophantic drivel he pumps out.

    Piers, 2010: 'She would hate to be called a celebrity, and guards her private life intensely, so she doesn't play any part of the celebrity game. And that's why I've marked her quite far down my list. But by encouraging children to read, feel inspired and be creative, she has had a greater impact on the world than most of the other names on it.'

    Piers, 2016: 'Nobody plays the celebrity game more abusively or ruthlessly than you, Ms 'Intensely Private Billionaire'.'
    The endless, tedious Twitterspat between Morgan and Rowling does neither of them any favours. They should both shut up.

    Twitter is great. My putting broadcasting right in the palm of celebrities (or politicians) it cuts through any carefully crafted veneer of PR.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RobD said:

    Nigel Farage Refuses To Campaign Anymore For Paul Nuttall In Stoke Amid Splits At Top Of Ukip

    The former Ukip leader is not happy with how the campaign is being run

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-stoke-ukip-duffy_uk_58a34272e4b03df370daac5d?

    He wants his old job back?
    The ironic thing is that Farage probably would have won this by-election if he'd been the UKIP candidate.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    First German poll I've seen giving SPD the lead ...
    https://twitter.com/danielberman2/status/831520590246846464

    First to show a left majority, too. What will the Express et al make of it if Angela is toppled from the left? Fortunately, there is a word...schadenfreude.
    Second poll giving SPD the lead but taken mainly before new scandal on Schulz spending I think and the combined left parties still under 50%. It of course still makes zero difference to Brexit which of Schulz or Merkel is Chancellor given May's commitment to controlling free movement and leaving the single market, the only party who would make a difference are the AfD who are still third
    You are correct. Meant majority in Bundestag. Combined left ahead of combined right. However, it is unlikely Die Linke would be invited into/accept a place in a coalition. A continuation of the Grand Coalition is most likely this far out, although it could be led by SPD.
    Given the SPD will not stomach Die Linke and the CDU will not stomach the AfD another Grand Coalition is almost inevitable yes
    I believe the SPD are in coalition with Die Linke in some Lander.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,942
    Could we be seeing the beginning of the end of Trump? Ch 4 News seem to think he's teetering and losing support fast
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    Nigel Farage Refuses To Campaign Anymore For Paul Nuttall In Stoke Amid Splits At Top Of Ukip

    The former Ukip leader is not happy with how the campaign is being run

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-stoke-ukip-duffy_uk_58a34272e4b03df370daac5d?

    He wants his old job back?
    The ironic thing is that Farage probably would have won this by-election if he'd been the UKIP candidate.
    Eighth time lucky?

    Nah!
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    I'm looking forward to GE 2020:


    "Labour sources warned earlier this month that Mr Corbyn is "not a plus on the doorstep" amid reports he has been asked not to visit Stoke again for fear of putting people off."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/14/jeremy-corbyn-has-given-fight-win-copeland-aides-confirm-has/
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    One thing that strikes me on UKIP. When they no longer have MEPs thanks to Brexit, they will lose huge resources in staff and cash.

    They strike me as a glorified walking corpse. A repository for a certain number of protest votes in the manner of a unfocused Liberal Democrat. Which is as is should be given that their work will be done once Art50 is through.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Roger said:

    Could we be seeing the beginning of the end of Trump? Ch 4 News seem to think he's teetering and losing support fast

    Fragged by his own troops is the way Trump exits the Whitehouse? I would love that, but can we have the State visit first?
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    The evidence is mounting that not only is Piers a total c***, he's also a pretty thick one.

    twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/831552409302339588

    Isn't the bragging part about her retweeting it? Not sure why the authorship of the list matters.
    No one would doubt that Piers is a fawning little creep when it suits him, and is unable to keep tabs on all the sycophantic drivel he pumps out.

    Piers, 2010: 'She would hate to be called a celebrity, and guards her private life intensely, so she doesn't play any part of the celebrity game. And that's why I've marked her quite far down my list. But by encouraging children to read, feel inspired and be creative, she has had a greater impact on the world than most of the other names on it.'

    Piers, 2016: 'Nobody plays the celebrity game more abusively or ruthlessly than you, Ms 'Intensely Private Billionaire'.'
    The endless, tedious Twitterspat between Morgan and Rowling does neither of them any favours. They should both shut up.

    Fame and wealth has really changed Rowling - this comes from my wife who met her and her publishers at the time that book 1 was just beginning to generating some momentum. Morgan has always been a complete weapon with no redeeming features.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193

    SeanT said:

    The Midlands is a quadrilateral, with corners at The Wash, the Humber, the Mersey and the Severn. Outside of that is, going clockwise, is the North, East Anglia, the South and Wales.

    That puts Manchester just barely in the North, which doesn't seem right. The North/Midlands boundary should be somewhere between Macclesfield and Stoke.
    The North begins, precisely, half a mile north of Nantwich, Cheshire.

    You can actually hear the accents change, quite suddenly.
    That feels about right. Crewe and Nantwich, I would have to think about before I decided if they were North or Midlands.
    A line from Crewe to Chesterfield looks a pretty defensible boundary for the North. Lincoln isn't the north. Hull is in the North. Grimsby? Who cares....
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,942

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    you mean we should have pre-screened and disenfranchised anyone who would vote leave ?
    It should have been in a manifesto. If the Party proposing it could get it through parliament then it would have been scrutinised. This is madness. It's the equivalent of allowing Shannon Matthews to drive a Jumbo jet.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228
    edited February 2017
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    First German poll I've seen giving SPD the lead ...
    https://twitter.com/danielberman2/status/831520590246846464

    First to show a left majority, too. What will the Express et al make of it if Angela is toppled from the left? Fortunately, there is a word...schadenfreude.
    Second poll giving SPD the lead but taken mainly before new scandal on Schulz spending I think and the combined left parties still under 50%. It of course still makes zero difference to Brexit which of Schulz or Merkel is Chancellor given May's commitment to controlling free movement and leaving the single market, the only party who would make a difference are the AfD who are still third
    You are correct. Meant majority in Bundestag. Combined left ahead of combined right. However, it is unlikely Die Linke would be invited into/accept a place in a coalition. A continuation of the Grand Coalition is most likely this far out, although it could be led by SPD.
    Given the SPD will not stomach Die Linke and the CDU will not stomach the AfD another Grand Coalition is almost inevitable yes
    I believe the SPD are in coalition with Die Linke in some Lander.
    Only in East Germany, West Germany will not tolerate them
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    .
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    What an interesting point of view! So votes only for people with second houses abroad then ?
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    So Corbyn has been sent home from Stoke by his own party, and Nuttall has been disowned by Farage. Is this the most amateurish by-election in political history?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,675
    The man is a bullshitter. It's a shame, as I felt some of his ideas were worthwhile. UKIP in their current form don't really have much worth keeping.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,228
    Roger said:

    Could we be seeing the beginning of the end of Trump? Ch 4 News seem to think he's teetering and losing support fast

    Trump has 40% of the electorate even now, that is enough to form his own party a la Berlusconi if the GOP turn on him
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,254
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    Why not? Is a referendum more important than choosing a government, say?

    I know that there was a minimum majority in relation to one of the Scottish devolution referenda.

    But imposing a minimum bar that has to be reached has got nothing to with whether the people who would vote are incontinent in their procreative habits.

    Would you have been happy with a referendum result 60/40 in favour of Leave if that Leave vote got over the line with the votes of the people you've described?

  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    Ability to emphathise with a Guardian article on coping with the courgette and (imminent) olive oil crisis.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    The evidence is mounting that not only is Piers a total c***, he's also a pretty thick one.

    twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/831552409302339588

    Isn't the bragging part about her retweeting it? Not sure why the authorship of the list matters.
    No one would doubt that Piers is a fawning little creep when it suits him, and is unable to keep tabs on all the sycophantic drivel he pumps out.

    Piers, 2010: 'She would hate to be called a celebrity, and guards her private life intensely, so she doesn't play any part of the celebrity game. And that's why I've marked her quite far down my list. But by encouraging children to read, feel inspired and be creative, she has had a greater impact on the world than most of the other names on it.'

    Piers, 2016: 'Nobody plays the celebrity game more abusively or ruthlessly than you, Ms 'Intensely Private Billionaire'.'
    The endless, tedious Twitterspat between Morgan and Rowling does neither of them any favours. They should both shut up.

    Fame and wealth has really changed Rowling - this comes from my wife who met her and her publishers at the time that book 1 was just beginning to generating some momentum. Morgan has always been a complete weapon with no redeeming features.
    .
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    edited February 2017
    Roger said:

    Could we be seeing the beginning of the end of Trump? Ch 4 News seem to think he's teetering and losing support fast

    No-one has more insight and the insider connections in the Trump White House than Channel Four news.

    That said. I read that somewhere else. Weird if actually true.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,552
    Just to be clear, the North consists of the three northern regions (North West, North East, Yorkshire & Humber), or, alternatively, the seven traditional northern counties (Cumberland, Westmorland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cheshire). (This is the definnition the RFU have always used - I fondly remember the days of watching the North v South and South West on Grandstand on a Saturday afternoon.) Arguably it also includes Northern Lincolnshire (i.e. Scunthorpe and Grimsby) which falls within the first definition anyway), and possibly also some of northern Derbyshire (Glossop, New Mills? Almost certainly. Buxton? Probably. Chesterfield, Bakewell? Perhaps. Matlock, Alfreton? Possibly. Ashbourne, Belper? Probably not.)

    It does include Nantwich by this definition, and also Crewe. But I concede that the two towns are stretching the north as farsouth as it will go, both in geography and in feel. Most of Cheshire is unequivocal in this regard though - I'm not having any doubt about Chester, Winsford, Middlewich, Congleton or Macclesfield - and I don't really want to cede any of Cheshire to the Midlands.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    Jobabob said:

    So Corbyn has been sent home from Stoke by his own party, and Nuttall has been disowned by Farage. Is this the most amateurish by-election in political history?

    I'm taking back my previous comments that surely UKIP can't lose. I no don't see how either Labour or uKIP win with these candidates....
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    you mean we should have pre-screened and disenfranchised anyone who would vote leave ?
    It should have been in a manifesto. If the Party proposing it could get it through parliament then it would have been scrutinised. This is madness. It's the equivalent of allowing Shannon Matthews to drive a Jumbo jet.
    The referendum was in the Conservative manifesto, it was subsequently voted on in Parliament and approved 316-53. The government then sent an expensive letter to all voters which promised to honor the result of that referendum. Then contemptible people like you and a couple of dozen MPs that voted for the referendum attempt to wriggle out because you don't like the answer.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,254
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    you mean we should have pre-screened and disenfranchised anyone who would vote leave ?
    It should have been in a manifesto. If the Party proposing it could get it through parliament then it would have been scrutinised. This is madness. It's the equivalent of allowing Shannon Matthews to drive a Jumbo jet.
    Er.... the EU referendum was in the Tory party's manifesto at the last election. And the referendum bill went through Parliament.



  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    you mean we should have pre-screened and disenfranchised anyone who would vote leave ?
    It should have been in a manifesto. If the Party proposing it could get it through parliament then it would have been scrutinised. This is madness. It's the equivalent of allowing Shannon Matthews to drive a Jumbo jet.
    Er.... the EU referendum was in the Tory party's manifesto at the last election. And the referendum bill went through Parliament.



    Although the bill was so poorly written it didn't actually grant the power to trigger Brexit.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Mortimer said:

    Jobabob said:

    So Corbyn has been sent home from Stoke by his own party, and Nuttall has been disowned by Farage. Is this the most amateurish by-election in political history?

    I'm taking back my previous comments that surely UKIP can't lose. I no don't see how either Labour or uKIP win with these candidates....
    It certainly is hard to call @Mortimer - what an absolute shambles these two clowns are
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    you mean we should have pre-screened and disenfranchised anyone who would vote leave ?
    It should have been in a manifesto. If the Party proposing it could get it through parliament then it would have been scrutinised. This is madness. It's the equivalent of allowing Shannon Matthews to drive a Jumbo jet.
    Er.... the EU referendum was in the Tory party's manifesto at the last election. And the referendum bill went through Parliament.



    Although the bill was so poorly written it didn't actually grant the power to trigger Brexit.
    Happily it didn't need to, parliament approved that last week 498 to 114.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,106
    edited February 2017
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    Perhaps - some countries do put extra requirements in such situations- but for whatever reason we have settled on that in this country for referendums. That sort of thing should have been resolved first, if it was an issue. Like the government making clear in law it would implement the result, which would have avoided many a silly argument.
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,438
    I believe that this North South divide is all the problem of Mercia.

    Do you view the southern boundary of the North as the northern boundary of Mercia?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,106

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    you mean we should have pre-screened and disenfranchised anyone who would vote leave ?
    It should have been in a manifesto. If the Party proposing it could get it through parliament then it would have been scrutinised. This is madness. It's the equivalent of allowing Shannon Matthews to drive a Jumbo jet.
    Er.... the EU referendum was in the Tory party's manifesto at the last election. And the referendum bill went through Parliament.



    Although the bill was so poorly written it didn't actually grant the power to trigger Brexit.
    Happily it didn't need to, parliament approved that last week 498 to 114.
    And no bad thing too that they were required, for all it was a mistake by the government. And caused no appreciable delay either.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Going to be interesting next week when A50 gets to the Lords. How many ex EU Commissioners are in The Lord's atm ? Kinnock, Mandelson, Patten, Hill ? Will they be declaring their EU pensions, and the requirement that they maintain "duty of loyalty to the EU" in order to retain them ?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,027
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    Perhaps - some countries do put extra requirements in such situations- but for whatever reason we have settled on that in this country for referendums. That sort of thing should have been resolved first, if it was an issue. Like the government making clear in law it would implement the result, which would have avoided many a silly argument.
    I thought Parliament considered such an ammendment to the bill, but it was defeated?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,254
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    you mean we should have pre-screened and disenfranchised anyone who would vote leave ?
    It should have been in a manifesto. If the Party proposing it could get it through parliament then it would have been scrutinised. This is madness. It's the equivalent of allowing Shannon Matthews to drive a Jumbo jet.
    Er.... the EU referendum was in the Tory party's manifesto at the last election. And the referendum bill went through Parliament.



    Although the bill was so poorly written it didn't actually grant the power to trigger Brexit.
    Did anyone at the time put forward an amendment for a minimum percentage for a Yes vote?

  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I believe that this North South divide is all the problem of Mercia.

    Do you view the southern boundary of the North as the northern boundary of Mercia?

    Mercia included St Albans at one time.
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    matt said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    Ability to emphathise with a Guardian article on coping with the courgette and (imminent) olive oil crisis.
    Labour must rue the day they abolished the university constituencies in 1950.
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    Mortimer said:

    Jobabob said:

    So Corbyn has been sent home from Stoke by his own party, and Nuttall has been disowned by Farage. Is this the most amateurish by-election in political history?

    I'm taking back my previous comments that surely UKIP can't lose. I no don't see how either Labour or uKIP win with these candidates....
    Have they been taking inspiration from the 2012 Olympic badminton?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mortimer said:

    Jobabob said:

    So Corbyn has been sent home from Stoke by his own party, and Nuttall has been disowned by Farage. Is this the most amateurish by-election in political history?

    I'm taking back my previous comments that surely UKIP can't lose. I no don't see how either Labour or uKIP win with these candidates....
    Have they been taking inspiration from the 2012 Olympic badminton?
    Shadsy still has UKIP under 20% at 8/1...

    The reality is that most voters choose by party, no matter how crappy the candidate.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,106
    If it's a terrible candidate contest in Stoke, then short of a even-more-implausible-than-Richmond LD rise, surely Labour are are lock for the win? They've got a high base to fall from.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,027
    New thread!
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,942
    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    Why not? Is a referendum more important than choosing a government, say?

    I know that there was a minimum majority in relation to one of the Scottish devolution referenda.

    But imposing a minimum bar that has to be reached has got nothing to with whether the people who would vote are incontinent in their procreative habits.

    Would you have been happy with a referendum result 60/40 in favour of Leave if that Leave vote got over the line with the votes of the people you've described?

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Why don't we have a referendum on hanging or on the Guillotine for the murder of children? There are some very uncivilized people in this country and their instincts have to be resisted.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193
    I imagine the two resigning MPs must be thinking that it is all going nicely to plan.

    One factor in Stoke I haven't seen mentioned - and that is Tristram Hunt leaving the job of MP for a cushy post at the V&A. People generally don't like by-elections where someone has tazzed off for a better offer. I was active in the 1977 Ashfield by-election, a rock-solid Labour seat where David Marquand went off to a job in the EEC (as it then was) to work for Roy Jenkins. The Tories won the seat with a 20% swing - speaking to Labour folks afterwards, they just couldn't get their voters out. Anybody who has been to Stoke/phone banked for it found this given as a reason for changed votes?
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,438
    AndyJS said:

    I believe that this North South divide is all the problem of Mercia.

    Do you view the southern boundary of the North as the northern boundary of Mercia?

    Mercia included St Albans at one time.
    Indeed which is why it is a problem. Mercia is not just the midlands otherwise the great city of St Albans would also be in the midlands (shudder!)
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    Cyclefree said:


    It was more than "looking at me funny". The allegations were pretty serious and were more akin to what was alleged to have been practiced in Guantanamo and in Iraq: waterboarding, hooding, sleep deprivation etc.

    In 1976, the European Court ruled that the British government was guilty of torture and inhumane and degrading treatment.

    Concerned by the damage to its international reputation, the government appealed and two years later, in 1978, the European Court ruled that while the five techniques amounted to inhumane and degrading treatment, they did not constitute torture.

    That is pretty shaming for Britain.

    The actions which Britain took were worse, in my view, than banning people from entering a country and placing a temporary ban on others. They involved degrading treatment to its own citizens and detention without trial and miscarriages of justice to its own citizens. It's something far worse, IMO, than doing something that you might not agree with.

    Locking people up for 26 years on the basis of made up evidence, confessions beaten out of them, the withholding of evidence and risibly incompetent forensic work goes to the heart of the rule of law. A judicial system that shuts down a legal case because it cannot bear to contemplate what such a case might mean goes to the heart of the rule of law.

    It was shaming and it might be as well for us to look at the beams in our own eyes before taking the moral high ground about others.

    The picture and the sentiment are uninformed and do nothing to aid a debate - a difficult one - about how to deal with terrorist threats from those who live in and may also be citizens of a country.


    There are some things I find shaming for Britain but doing stuff that is not illegal at the time is certainly not one of them. Inhumane and degrading is not torture. And given what the European Court considers breaches of human rights these days I am afraid I do not hold them up as an example to follow for the moral high ground.

    As I say the UK did some things that it should be ashamed of. Diplock courts (which still exist by the way) and legal but harsh treatment are not things I think we should be apologising for. I am afraid your view is the one that leads to the Phil Shiners of this world.
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    Cookie said:

    Just to be clear, the North consists of the three northern regions (North West, North East, Yorkshire & Humber), or, alternatively, the seven traditional northern counties (Cumberland, Westmorland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cheshire). (This is the definnition the RFU have always used - I fondly remember the days of watching the North v South and South West on Grandstand on a Saturday afternoon.) Arguably it also includes Northern Lincolnshire (i.e. Scunthorpe and Grimsby) which falls within the first definition anyway), and possibly also some of northern Derbyshire (Glossop, New Mills? Almost certainly. Buxton? Probably. Chesterfield, Bakewell? Perhaps. Matlock, Alfreton? Possibly. Ashbourne, Belper? Probably not.)

    It does include Nantwich by this definition, and also Crewe. But I concede that the two towns are stretching the north as farsouth as it will go, both in geography and in feel. Most of Cheshire is unequivocal in this regard though - I'm not having any doubt about Chester, Winsford, Middlewich, Congleton or Macclesfield - and I don't really want to cede any of Cheshire to the Midlands.

    Historically, Cheshire was very much a border zone, with significant links to Staffs; 100 years ago, the main railway company serving Macclesfield was the North Staffs Rly. Only lands north of the Mersey in the semi-separate Duchy of Lancaster were clearly part of the North of England. It is only since the post-war establishment of regions for state-directed activities such as the NHS and former public utility companies that Cheshire has been lumped with the North-West of England, although Mid and South Cheshire residents still tend to be referred for highly specialist health care to Stoke.

    Suburban and overspill expansion from Manchester and Liverpool into places such as Wilmslow and Winsford has also altered perceptions. The High Peak area of Derbyshire (as far as Buxton) also tends to look towards Manchester rather than to the Midlands.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,556
    Roger said:

    Why don't we have a referendum on hanging or on the Guillotine for the murder of children? There are some very uncivilized people in this country and their instincts have to be resisted.

    There certainly are, but what you fail to realise is that you are one of them.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    edited February 2017

    Roger said:

    Could we be seeing the beginning of the end of Trump? Ch 4 News seem to think he's teetering and losing support fast

    Fragged by his own troops is the way Trump exits the Whitehouse? I would love that, but can we have the State visit first?
    Trouble is I can't really see anyway that Trump does leave the Whitehouse this side of the next Presidential election. As such I am not sure that leaving him isolated with only a few fanatics for counsel is a very good idea. What we need is for him to be broken but remain in power surrounded by wiser heads.
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    El_SidEl_Sid Posts: 145
    Cookie said:

    It does include Nantwich by this definition, and also Crewe. But I concede that the two towns are stretching the north as farsouth as it will go, both in geography and in feel. Most of Cheshire is unequivocal in this regard though - I'm not having any doubt about Chester, Winsford, Middlewich, Congleton or Macclesfield - and I don't really want to cede any of Cheshire to the Midlands.

    Rather than man-made boundaries I'd suggest natural ones - the Mersey basin is the North, the Trent basin is almost all Midlands (although the Ouse is clearly the North too, the Humber estuary is clearly the boundary on the east coast but I don't quite know how you draw the line between Nottingham and the North Sea). But the watersheds follow the county boundaries quite closely around Stoke and Crewe.

    Congleton's an interesting one as although it's normally grouped with Macclesfield it had more affinity with the outlying bits of the Potteries like Kidsgrove than with the Manchester-facing Macclesfield. But the influence of better commuter transport links and regional TV have made Congleton look far more towards Manchester than it used to 30 years ago.

    Another signifier of common culture is the colour of beer - Staffordshire drinks far more dark beer, whereas Cheshire definitely prefers beer that's the colour of Boddingtons (RIP)...
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Cyclefree said:

    MTimT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Apologies for the seriously bad language, but this amused me

    https://twitter.com/Unnamedinsider/status/830575797933060096

    Amusing but uninformed.

    - Internment without trial was imposed in a part of the United Kingdom.
    - Trial by jury was suspended in a part of the United Kingdom.
    - The British Government was found guilty by an international court of having committed acts against detainees which were one level below actual torture.
    - People travelling to and from Ireland were subject to increased checks.
    - The English police and judicial systems disgraced themselves in a series of miscarriages of justice which took far far too long to correct.
    - Innocent people were beaten up in prison and by the police
    - And Lord Denning blotted his copybook by coming out with a judgment which showed that he valued the reputation of the authorities above justice for individuals.
    - Irish people and Irish Catholics were not exactly popular in mainland Britain during the Troubles.

    What point precisely was this Twitter user seeking to make?

    I suspect that we are better than Trump and the deplorables.
    Are we? Or, rather, were we when we faced a serious terrorist threat? Britain did not exactly cover itself in glory during the Troubles. Look at those first two points. Is Trump's much maligned EO even remotely as bad as that?

    What about the third point? I felt pretty ashamed at the time that the British government was pleased to have that result rather than the infinitely worse finding of torture.

    And what was the Labour government's response to the threat of Islamic terrorism in more recent times? Detention without trial for 90 days. Very liberal that.

    I dislike Trump intensely. But when people on Twitter make jejeune and ill-informed comments without bothering to do some basic research, it gets my goat, frankly.

    By all means let's have a debate. But posting pictures, using swear words and making a frankly risible point is for children not grown ups.

    I agree with you, Cyclefree. Re-reading my post, it looks as though I agree with that position - I do not.

    I find it one of the most distasteful things about a large chunk of the European elite - their totally unfounded, automatic, knee-jerk supposition of moral and intellectual superiority over all things American. It is a belief rooted in ignorance of the fundamental differences in world view of the US vs Europe - an ignorance which is lacking (at least in the elites) on the other foot.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,245
    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    The evidence is mounting that not only is Piers a total c***, he's also a pretty thick one.

    twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/831552409302339588

    Isn't the bragging part about her retweeting it? Not sure why the authorship of the list matters.
    No one would doubt that Piers is a fawning little creep when it suits him, and is unable to keep tabs on all the sycophantic drivel he pumps out.

    Piers, 2010: 'She would hate to be called a celebrity, and guards her private life intensely, so she doesn't play any part of the celebrity game. And that's why I've marked her quite far down my list. But by encouraging children to read, feel inspired and be creative, she has had a greater impact on the world than most of the other names on it.'

    Piers, 2016: 'Nobody plays the celebrity game more abusively or ruthlessly than you, Ms 'Intensely Private Billionaire'.'
    The endless, tedious Twitterspat between Morgan and Rowling does neither of them any favours. They should both shut up.

    Fame and wealth has really changed Rowling - this comes from my wife who met her and her publishers at the time that book 1 was just beginning to generating some momentum. Morgan has always been a complete weapon with no redeeming features.
    I was intrigued to hear that Rowling flattened a £1m house next door to hers, just so she could "extend her garden".

    Hm.
    Did she force the people out of their house via a compulsory purchase order?

    If not, so what?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380

    I imagine the two resigning MPs must be thinking that it is all going nicely to plan.

    One factor in Stoke I haven't seen mentioned - and that is Tristram Hunt leaving the job of MP for a cushy post at the V&A. People generally don't like by-elections where someone has tazzed off for a better offer. I was active in the 1977 Ashfield by-election, a rock-solid Labour seat where David Marquand went off to a job in the EEC (as it then was) to work for Roy Jenkins. The Tories won the seat with a 20% swing - speaking to Labour folks afterwards, they just couldn't get their voters out. Anybody who has been to Stoke/phone banked for it found this given as a reason for changed votes?

    No, I was looking out for it. One voter said that in general terms he hadn't much liked recent MPs and was pleased the candidate was a local bloke though he didn't know him. Nobody else commente positively or negatively about any candidate except Nuttall (about whom comments were 100% negative, even from people still planning to vote for him).

    But I think everyone is going to struggle to get their vote out, frankly. It didn't feel like a constituency panting for the chance to cast February votes.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Could we be seeing the beginning of the end of Trump? Ch 4 News seem to think he's teetering and losing support fast

    No-one has more insight and the insider connections in the Trump White House than Channel Four news.

    That said. I read that somewhere else. Weird if actually true.
    Calm down, there was a Fox News poll showing him with a net positive rating still. People just don't pay that much attention to this stuff. It has to affect then personally.


    11h
    Nate Cohn‏ @Nate_Cohn
    Trump's best live interview poll yet (RVs helps some) puts his approval at +1; ban at -6 (link: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2017/02/14/fox-news-poll-february-14-2017/) foxnews.com/politics/inter…
This discussion has been closed.