There are now compromising photos of Macron circulating in Paris apparently after his denials of a homosexual affair
For the first time ever I'm tempted to put tuppence ha penny on a Le Pen.
I've been thinking the same this week.
Maybe she will do it after all. France's establishment can't really blame anyone but themselves if she does...
She has no chance whatsoever.
That seals it. Rogerdamus has spoken.
The thing about the French and their system is that there are alaways between 70-75% of the voting population who will vote against the National Front and they're made up of left right and centre. I wish I had as much confidence in this country
When you look at who has the least favourable view of Muslim immigration - the Polish - it makes me wonder what really bubbles beneath the surface in London.
Does tonight suggest Boundary changes have a bit more chance of passing than maybe we thought - ie good party management by Theresa May, MPs less inclined to rebel.
Still will be on a knife edge for sure, but maybe a pointer.
Imagine if France elects a female Pres before either of the 'progressive' parties in the U.K. Have had a female leader. FRANCE!
I think France electing a nationalist, protectionist, anti Euro President may be rather more dramatic than her gender though of course it would also be a story (albeit France has had a female PM, Edith Cresson)
I remember Mme. Cresson expressing the opinion that most English men were homosexual.
There are now compromising photos of Macron circulating in Paris apparently after his denials of a homosexual affair
For the first time ever I'm tempted to put tuppence ha penny on a Le Pen.
I've been thinking the same this week.
Maybe she will do it after all. France's establishment can't really blame anyone but themselves if she does...
She has no chance whatsoever.
That seals it. Rogerdamus has spoken.
The thing about the French and their system is that there are alaways between 70-75% of the voting population who will vote against the National Front and they're made up of left right and centre. I wish I had as much confidence in this country
60-65%, but it depends who the opponent is. Le Pen might win against Hamon.
There are now compromising photos of Macron circulating in Paris apparently after his denials of a homosexual affair
For the first time ever I'm tempted to put tuppence ha penny on a Le Pen.
I've been thinking the same this week.
Maybe she will do it after all. France's establishment can't really blame anyone but themselves if she does...
She has no chance whatsoever.
That seals it. Rogerdamus has spoken.
The thing about the French and their system is that there are alaways between 70-75% of the voting population who will vote against the National Front and they're made up of left right and centre. I wish I had as much confidence in this country
Who fills the role of the National Front equivalent in this country? If UKIP they got less than 13%, and any of the other options got far far less. Seems like we aren't doing too bad on that front.
There are now compromising photos of Macron circulating in Paris apparently after his denials of a homosexual affair
For the first time ever I'm tempted to put tuppence ha penny on a Le Pen.
I've been thinking the same this week.
Maybe she will do it after all. France's establishment can't really blame anyone but themselves if she does...
She has no chance whatsoever.
That seals it. Rogerdamus has spoken.
The thing about the French and their system is that there are alaways between 70-75% of the voting population who will vote against the National Front and they're made up of left right and centre. I wish I had as much confidence in this country
Not quite so true actually, the latest poll has hard left voters voting for Le Pen over Fillon and over a quarter of centre left voters too
Imagine if France elects a female Pres before either of the 'progressive' parties in the U.K. Have had a female leader. FRANCE!
I think France electing a nationalist, protectionist, anti Euro President may be rather more dramatic than her gender though of course it would also be a story (albeit France has had a female PM, Edith Cresson)
I remember Mme. Cresson expressing the opinion that most English men were homosexual.
Yes, probably about the one thing she is remembered for
This whole Trump state visit business and its aftermath seems to be a whole series of events where I intently dislike the focus of ire and his policies, that is to say Trump, but find myself erring on the side of those defending what happened, or at least not agreeing that the best response is to throw great big wobblies about it.
Therefore, while I didn't think May should have offered Trump a state visit quite as soon as she did (he's a US President, we'd have to at some point, probably), it's not really viable to take it away once it has been offered, since any of the reasons not to - he's a boorish racist, that sort of thing - applies to plenty of others who have been given a visit, and who usually lead even worse regimes.
And therefore while I don't want Trump to be invited to address parliament, Bercow getting up on his soapbox to talk about how he wouldn't permit it even if it was offered, which it hadn't, and deliberately didn't even give a heads up to the other people who consider such requests, struck me as diminishing the position of Speaker - if he merely wanted to reflect the will of the house, which is at best divided on whether Trump should be granted such an address, should one be offered, then he could and should have replied to the effect that he knew many members had concerns about such an event, which he shared, and that he would raise those concerns very seriously with the other two people involved in the decision.
And therefore while I think Bercow has undermined himself quite considerably through his behaviour, I don't know that leading a coup against him is the best move at this time, perhaps further enforcing the idea the instant a Speaker does something you don't like they should be ousted.
Now the third I am not settled on. Some would say Bercow has crossed the line before and enough is enough, and others even if he has, knifing him in this fashion would be disproportionate and more harmful than merely taking steps to ensure he is not re-elected as Speaker some day, even if that means waiting some while.
You omitted one quite important factor. Bercow becomes more turd-like by the day. We just have to hope that he doesn't start to grow.
Dwarfs don't grow silly, thats why there dwarfs.
Don't argue with stupid Dwarves, it's not big and it's not clever.........
Does tonight suggest Boundary changes have a bit more chance of passing than maybe we thought - ie good party management by Theresa May, MPs less inclined to rebel.
Still will be on a knife edge for sure, but maybe a pointer.
I'm pretty sure most of us expect it to pass. JustinShortStraw doesnt, but says it so often that it has become tiresome.
There are now compromising photos of Macron circulating in Paris apparently after his denials of a homosexual affair
For the first time ever I'm tempted to put tuppence ha penny on a Le Pen.
I've been thinking the same this week.
Maybe she will do it after all. France's establishment can't really blame anyone but themselves if she does...
She has no chance whatsoever.
That seals it. Rogerdamus has spoken.
The thing about the French and their system is that there are alaways between 70-75% of the voting population who will vote against the National Front and they're made up of left right and centre. I wish I had as much confidence in this country
Who fills the role of the National Front equivalent in this country? If UKIP they got less than 13%, and any of the other options got far far less. Seems like we aren't doing too bad on that front.
If there had been no EU referendum who knows what UKIP would have got in 2020
There are now compromising photos of Macron circulating in Paris apparently after his denials of a homosexual affair
For the first time ever I'm tempted to put tuppence ha penny on a Le Pen.
I've been thinking the same this week.
Maybe she will do it after all. France's establishment can't really blame anyone but themselves if she does...
She has no chance whatsoever.
That seals it. Rogerdamus has spoken.
The thing about the French and their system is that there are alaways between 70-75% of the voting population who will vote against the National Front and they're made up of left right and centre. I wish I had as much confidence in this country
I'm afraid this isn't 2002 anymore. The situation has worsened and Marine's nimbler than her father. She'll win.
There are now compromising photos of Macron circulating in Paris apparently after his denials of a homosexual affair
For the first time ever I'm tempted to put tuppence ha penny on a Le Pen.
I've been thinking the same this week.
Maybe she will do it after all. France's establishment can't really blame anyone but themselves if she does...
She has no chance whatsoever.
That seals it. Rogerdamus has spoken.
The thing about the French and their system is that there are alaways between 70-75% of the voting population who will vote against the National Front and they're made up of left right and centre. I wish I had as much confidence in this country
60-65%, but it depends who the opponent is. Le Pen might win against Hamon.
There is an outside chance she beats Fillon too now
All councils are free to apply. No special treatment.
That would depend on how desirable being in these pilots is perceived to be, how many did apply, and why of all those who did Surrey were chosen. It's likely to be above board but provide much fodder for comment, I'd guess.
Surely the good thing about being a Labour MP uncertain if you want to enter the Shadow Cabinet but knowing you are one of the few left who has not resigned from it or committed to not being in even if asked, is if things go badly something will come along in a few months which will give you a reason to resign as well, limiting the damage, and there are so many former shadow cabinet members most people probably won't remember you were in it, nor will you have spent that much time with Jeremy himself, since depending on your portfolio he probably ignored you anyway. And of course on the off chance things go well, you reap the reward for being a loyal trooper for that unlikely event.
If I may venture to say so without being rude, that post is an excellent and an amazing reflection of the state of the Labour party.
Imagine if France elects a female Pres before either of the 'progressive' parties in the U.K. Have had a female leader. FRANCE!
I think France electing a nationalist, protectionist, anti Euro President may be rather more dramatic than her gender though of course it would also be a story (albeit France has had a female PM, Edith Cresson)
I remember Mme. Cresson expressing the opinion that most English men were homosexual.
Yes, probably about the one thing she is remembered for
Not quite. She's also remembered as the worst ever French PM, and for bringing down the entire European Commission. Not many can match that record of failure at the highest level.
@tnewtondunn: Breaking: Clive Lewis resigns. How long before he challenges Corbyn for leader?
By having been talked of as a potential successor, he has in effect challenged him by resigning. Formally challenge? After the locals maybe? (as I think Labour will win the parliamentary by-elections)
When you look at who has the least favourable view of Muslim immigration - the Polish - it makes me wonder what really bubbles beneath the surface in London.
Imagine if France elects a female Pres before either of the 'progressive' parties in the U.K. Have had a female leader. FRANCE!
I think France electing a nationalist, protectionist, anti Euro President may be rather more dramatic than her gender though of course it would also be a story (albeit France has had a female PM, Edith Cresson)
I remember Mme. Cresson expressing the opinion that most English men were homosexual.
Yes, probably about the one thing she is remembered for
Not quite. She's also remembered as the worst ever French PM, and for bringing down the entire European Commission. Not many can match that record of failure at the highest level.
Perhaps explains why the French were rather reluctant to elect another socialist female leader in 2007 when Sarkozy beat Royal
Surely the good thing about being a Labour MP uncertain if you want to enter the Shadow Cabinet but knowing you are one of the few left who has not resigned from it or committed to not being in even if asked, is if things go badly something will come along in a few months which will give you a reason to resign as well, limiting the damage, and there are so many former shadow cabinet members most people probably won't remember you were in it, nor will you have spent that much time with Jeremy himself, since depending on your portfolio he probably ignored you anyway. And of course on the off chance things go well, you reap the reward for being a loyal trooper for that unlikely event.
If I may venture to say so without being rude, that post is an excellent and an amazing reflection of the state of the Labour party.
Or, more succinctly, ... eh?
Well, perhaps I could have split it across more than 2 sentences, 90% of them in one sentence.
But in short:
A lot of people have resigned from the shadow cabinet Not many are left who are available to fill the posts Many who have filled previous vacancies have then resigned not long after Therefore one can accept a position, knowing a reason for resignation will come along if needed to save face So many have served in the shadow cabinet you can probably avoid criticism for doing so, since few will remember you amid the crowd
@paulwaugh: Lab MPs point out Clive Lewis voted for Govt clause + still resigned. They claim he didn't know what he'd voted for. "What a knob" one says
Does tonight suggest Boundary changes have a bit more chance of passing than maybe we thought - ie good party management by Theresa May, MPs less inclined to rebel.
Still will be on a knife edge for sure, but maybe a pointer.
I'm pretty sure most of us expect it to pass. JustinShortStraw doesnt, but says it so often that it has become tiresome.
Well I don't know.
DUP and UUP are against. Carswell may well vote against to keep his seat unchanged.
Effective majority is 14 assuming Con don't win Copeland or Stoke. Could go lower with any by-election loss in next 21 months.
I think it's knife-edge at best. Even if passes Commons, could lose in Lords.
No Ping Pong on Statutory Instruments - but I imagine they could reintroduce it, with a trivial change if legally required - eg change name of one seat.
When you look at who has the least favourable view of Muslim immigration - the Polish - it makes me wonder what really bubbles beneath the surface in London.
Yes, somewhat concerning
During the London Riots, up in Hoxton, the Polish and Vietnamese communities got on famously. At the back, behind the shops and restaurants, they were sitting together - the Vietnamese chefs (meat cleavers and machetes) the Polish off-license owners (baseball bats) - drinking beers and sharing cigarettes as they waited for the rioters to show up. It was a happy band of brothers....
There are now compromising photos of Macron circulating in Paris apparently after his denials of a homosexual affair
For the first time ever I'm tempted to put tuppence ha penny on a Le Pen.
I've been thinking the same this week.
Maybe she will do it after all. France's establishment can't really blame anyone but themselves if she does...
She has no chance whatsoever.
That seals it. Rogerdamus has spoken.
The thing about the French and their system is that there are alaways between 70-75% of the voting population who will vote against the National Front and they're made up of left right and centre. I wish I had as much confidence in this country
I'm afraid this isn't 2002 anymore. The situation has worsened and Marine's nimbler than her father. She'll win.
With Russia trying to game the election just as they did in the States, you might be right.
When you look at who has the least favourable view of Muslim immigration - the Polish - it makes me wonder what really bubbles beneath the surface in London.
I do find it amusing that Brexit Britain — almost like Nazi Germany if you listen to some people — is one of the less reactionary EU nations.
When you look at who has the least favourable view of Muslim immigration - the Polish - it makes me wonder what really bubbles beneath the surface in London.
Yes, somewhat concerning
During the London Riots, up in Hoxton, the Polish and Vietnamese communities got on famously. At the back, behind the shops and restaurants, they were sitting together - the Vietnamese chefs (meat cleavers and machetes) the Polish off-license owners (baseball bats) - drinking beers and sharing cigarettes as they waited for the rioters to show up. It was a happy band of brothers....
Sounds like the Koreans during the LA riots of '92.
@OwenJones84: Clive Lewis is genuinely one of the most principled people I've ever met, he resigned on a point of principle and that is commendable pic.twitter.com/39GVuh0DIn
I have spent the last 2 days in Copeland. I stayed overnight in the Trout Inn in Cockermouth where apparently Bing Crosby was a regular visitor back in the day (for the fishing apparently). My general observation is that you would not know there is a bye-election taken place. I drove the whole of the constituency on the A595 and saw precisely 3 posters: one for the LDs on the road out of Keswick, one for Labour in Whitehaven, and one for the Conservatives in Bootle - probably the home of the candidate. So expect a poor turnout. The local churches have arranged a hustings on Saturday but apparently the Labour candidate has refused to attend- replaced by tub of lard?
Has Lewis shot himself in the foot by voting for the Govt clauses?
He probably just thought he had to oppose 3rd Reading.
Shows how careful you need to be - it's a schoolboy error - some may say it's technical so who cares - but if you want to be PM you have to get the basics right.
When you look at who has the least favourable view of Muslim immigration - the Polish - it makes me wonder what really bubbles beneath the surface in London.
Yes, somewhat concerning
During the London Riots, up in Hoxton, the Polish and Vietnamese communities got on famously. At the back, behind the shops and restaurants, they were sitting together - the Vietnamese chefs (meat cleavers and machetes) the Polish off-license owners (baseball bats) - drinking beers and sharing cigarettes as they waited for the rioters to show up. It was a happy band of brothers....
Sounds like the Koreans during the LA riots of '92.
Nothing quite like explaining European fencing to a Vietnamese chef - with a Polish audience.
@paulwaugh: Debbie Abrahams voted for Brexit bill, despite having told shad cabinet this wk to do so wd be "morally untenable" (shadmn source tells me)
Has Lewis shot himself in the foot by voting for the Govt clauses?
Shot himself in the foot while digging a hole for himself perhaps?
Eh, who can predict thesedays, if he goes for it and looks and sounds credible, the technicalities or specifics of his positions will be easily overlooked.
I have spent the last 2 days in Copeland. I stayed overnight in the Trout Inn in Cockermouth where apparently Bing Crosby was a regular visitor back in the day (for the fishing apparently). My general observation is that you would not know there is a bye-election taken place. I drove the whole of the constituency on the A595 and saw precisely 3 posters: one for the LDs on the road out of Keswick, one for Labour in Whitehaven, and one for the Conservatives in Bootle - probably the home of the candidate. So expect a poor turnout. The local churches have arranged a hustings on Saturday but apparently the Labour candidate has refused to attend- replaced by tub of lard?
Posters have gone massively out of fashion since the 1990s when even safe seats used to be plastered with them. I don't think people like to be thought of as election anoraks these days.
I believe he loses his U.S. nationality automatically the moment he becomes the foreign minister of another country. The assumption is that his allegiance is to the country he is foreign minister of and as such would work against U.S. interests. This would be incompatible with his U.S. nationality.
I believe he loses his U.S. nationality automatically the moment he becomes the foreign minister of another country. The assumption is that his allegiance is to the country he is foreign minister of and as such would work against U.S. interests. This would be incompatible with his U.S. nationality.
"Because there is no administrative presumption that U.S. nationals who hold policy-level positions in foreign governments necessarily intend to retain their U.S. nationality , efforts are made to adjudicate fully such cases to determine the individual's intent. Certain policy level positions are inherently incompatible with retaining U.S. nationality. Cases of this nature generally involve heads of state or foreign ministers. Except with respect to these positions, the Department will not typically consider employment in a policy-level position to lead to loss of nationality if the individual says that he or she did not intend to lose their U.S. nationality and if the individual’s actions were consistent with the retention of U.S. nationality. Actions consistent with the retention of U.S. nationality include, but are not limited to, travel on a U.S. passport, voting in U.S. elections, payment of U.S. taxes, maintenance of a residence in the United States, etc.. In any event each policy-level position case is fully evaluated on a case-by-case basis."
As soon as the US send him the letter, he'd have to give it up. T'was only a matter of time.
Still the Lords to go! And then possibly Ping Pong.
Well, yes. But if the Lords play silly buggers in the face of the votes of both the people and the Commons, the threat of certain measures can bring them in line.
I have spent the last 2 days in Copeland. I stayed overnight in the Trout Inn in Cockermouth where apparently Bing Crosby was a regular visitor back in the day (for the fishing apparently). My general observation is that you would not know there is a bye-election taken place. I drove the whole of the constituency on the A595 and saw precisely 3 posters: one for the LDs on the road out of Keswick, one for Labour in Whitehaven, and one for the Conservatives in Bootle - probably the home of the candidate. So expect a poor turnout. The local churches have arranged a hustings on Saturday but apparently the Labour candidate has refused to attend- replaced by tub of lard?
Posters have gone massively out of fashion since the 1990s when even safe seats used to be plastered with them. I don't think people like to be thought of as election anoraks these days.
I believe he loses his U.S. nationality automatically the moment he becomes the foreign minister of another country. The assumption is that his allegiance is to the country he is foreign minister of and as such would work against U.S. interests. This would be incompatible with his U.S. nationality.
What happens if you vote down all amendments, but then vote down the "put the bill as it stands to a vote" vote?
Then the Bill fails and never gets to the Lords.
So why not concentrate fire on that one then?
If you can defeat a Bill at third reading you should be able to defeat it at second reading.
The problem is that once it gets to the third reading the Commons has already agreed that the Bill should, in principle, be passed (as that's what giving the bill its second reading means). According to Wikipedia (yes, I know) only one post-war government Bill has been defeated in the Commons at third reading.
Surely the good thing about being a Labour MP uncertain if you want to enter the Shadow Cabinet but knowing you are one of the few left who has not resigned from it or committed to not being in even if asked, is if things go badly something will come along in a few months which will give you a reason to resign as well, limiting the damage, and there are so many former shadow cabinet members most people probably won't remember you were in it, nor will you have spent that much time with Jeremy himself, since depending on your portfolio he probably ignored you anyway. And of course on the off chance things go well, you reap the reward for being a loyal trooper for that unlikely event.
If I may venture to say so without being rude, that post is an excellent and an amazing reflection of the state of the Labour party.
Or, more succinctly, ... eh?
Well, perhaps I could have split it across more than 2 sentences, 90% of them in one sentence.
But in short:
A lot of people have resigned from the shadow cabinet Not many are left who are available to fill the posts Many who have filled previous vacancies have then resigned not long after Therefore one can accept a position, knowing a reason for resignation will come along if needed to save face So many have served in the shadow cabinet you can probably avoid criticism for doing so, since few will remember you amid the crowd
I think the 'eh' was because you started the second sentence with a conjunction ("And"): if you ever feel like doing that, change the full stop for a colon and omit the 'And'.
What happens if you vote down all amendments, but then vote down the "put the bill as it stands to a vote" vote?
Then the Bill fails and never gets to the Lords.
So why not concentrate fire on that one then?
If you can defeat a Bill at third reading you should be able to defeat it at second reading.
The problem is that once it gets to the third reading the Commons has already agreed that the Bill should, in principle, be passed (as that's what giving the bill its second reading means). According to Wikipedia (yes, I know) only one post-war government Bill has been defeated in the Commons at third reading.
I meant, of the two votes tonight - the actual vote and the preceding "put it to a vote" vote - presumably both kill the bill, so why is there a difference in opposition?
Did Lindsay Hoyle just give some MPs a rollocking for singing Ode to Joy?
By "some MPs" you mean the SNP mob - the same lot who applaud as if they were at a county council meeting or something like that.
Yes, they should be showing respect for the mother of parliaments in the prescribed way. Barking, bellowing, jeering, finger pointing and the like.
Getting really mad at clapping is perhaps overdone. Getting precious and deliberately flouting a convention of the house (and it is, admittedly, not a firm rule as far as I know) as though it is some grand stand is not exactly an amazing act of defiance either.
The convention on generally not clapping is a quirk of the house, and harmless to boot, but if due to more frequent exception the custom dies out, it won't be the end of the world. Quite why the SNP, en masse, think it is such a big deal as to flout it with regularity in the first place I cannot quite figure out. It's not like, objectively, banging one's hands together is any more or less dignified than jeering or cheering. They just disrupt in a different way.
A pedant will be along shortly to say the expression mother of parliaments was a reference to england, not the parliament of the uk, but I would counter the pedant by saying that may have been what it was first used for, but that the term is and has been more broadly used for a long time.
Still the Lords to go! And then possibly Ping Pong.
Well, yes. But if the Lords play silly buggers in the face of the votes of both the people and the Commons, the threat of certain measures can bring them in line.
I doubt that anything would make Theresa May happier than Lib Dem and Labour lords blocking the Brexit Bill. Hello April election and a 150 majority.
Comments
So odds on really :-)
must resist
Still will be on a knife edge for sure, but maybe a pointer.
Or, more succinctly, ... eh?
Good evening everyone.
But in short:
A lot of people have resigned from the shadow cabinet
Not many are left who are available to fill the posts
Many who have filled previous vacancies have then resigned not long after
Therefore one can accept a position, knowing a reason for resignation will come along if needed to save face
So many have served in the shadow cabinet you can probably avoid criticism for doing so, since few will remember you amid the crowd
"What a knob" one says
https://media.giphy.com/media/pmpTiiqJlgccU/giphy.gif
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/829421270693449729
DUP and UUP are against. Carswell may well vote against to keep his seat unchanged.
Effective majority is 14 assuming Con don't win Copeland or Stoke. Could go lower with any by-election loss in next 21 months.
I think it's knife-edge at best. Even if passes Commons, could lose in Lords.
No Ping Pong on Statutory Instruments - but I imagine they could reintroduce it, with a trivial change if legally required - eg change name of one seat.
Difficult to read movement in next few days, though in truth it's too short.
@OwenJones84: Clive Lewis is genuinely one of the most principled people I've ever met, he resigned on a point of principle and that is commendable pic.twitter.com/39GVuh0DIn
He probably just thought he had to oppose 3rd Reading.
Shows how careful you need to be - it's a schoolboy error - some may say it's technical so who cares - but if you want to be PM you have to get the basics right.
A grand bunch.
Eh, who can predict thesedays, if he goes for it and looks and sounds credible, the technicalities or specifics of his positions will be easily overlooked.
Still the Lords to go! And then possibly Ping Pong.
I believe he loses his U.S. nationality automatically the moment he becomes the foreign minister of another country. The assumption is that his allegiance is to the country he is foreign minister of and as such would work against U.S. interests. This would be incompatible with his U.S. nationality.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/citizenship-and-seeking-public-office.html
As soon as the US send him the letter, he'd have to give it up. T'was only a matter of time.
Barking, bellowing, jeering, finger pointing and the like.
The problem is that once it gets to the third reading the Commons has already agreed that the Bill should, in principle, be passed (as that's what giving the bill its second reading means). According to Wikipedia (yes, I know) only one post-war government Bill has been defeated in the Commons at third reading.
The convention on generally not clapping is a quirk of the house, and harmless to boot, but if due to more frequent exception the custom dies out, it won't be the end of the world. Quite why the SNP, en masse, think it is such a big deal as to flout it with regularity in the first place I cannot quite figure out. It's not like, objectively, banging one's hands together is any more or less dignified than jeering or cheering. They just disrupt in a different way.
A pedant will be along shortly to say the expression mother of parliaments was a reference to england, not the parliament of the uk, but I would counter the pedant by saying that may have been what it was first used for, but that the term is and has been more broadly used for a long time.