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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After last night Ukip has now made more net gains in local

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After last night Ukip has now made more net gains in local by-elections in 2013 than Labour

UKipwin NE Lincolnshire- Humberston & New Waltham from CON.UKIP 1098, CON 738 votes, LAB 470, LD 311. 3rd local gain in 4 wks

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    tim said:

    They've had a massive boost from Cameron's focus on Europe and immigration.

    Still, at least Cammie doesn't have a toxic incompetent liability to worry about.

    Apart from Osbrowne of course.


    image

    Poor old tea party tories, they never EVER learn.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It's a good story in the Mirror. And I don't have much sympathy with George Osborne about this story coming to light - I'd certainly notice as a passenger if the driver had parked in a disabled bay.

    I doubt it will change much though. The general public have never thought of George Osborne as a charmer, so this story is pretty much priced into the market.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    rEds train stuck in the sidings ?

    Luckily the Labourites are too busy with the class war to notice.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    An astute point by Nick Cohen on today's YouGov -


    @MSmithsonPB Interesting, public agrees with Tories on welfare, but not backing them. Old story of liking Tory policies but not Tory Party
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @antifrank

    "I'd certainly notice as a passenger if the driver had parked in a disabled bay."

    If you are not in the car at the time? How do you do that?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    An astute point by Nick Cohen on today's YouGov -


    @MSmithsonPB Interesting, public agrees with Tories on welfare, but not backing them. Old story of liking Tory policies but not Tory Party

    You mean Cleggs policy too right ?

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4874140/Nick-Clegg-twice-saved-IDS-Universal-Credit-welfare-plan.html
  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    I can see it now - Balls walks out of McDonalds; his walk turns into a run as he notices the distinct yellow markings of the disabled bay. He wakes his driver from his doze, banging on the window and pulling frantically at the door handle. "Get out!" he cries. He immediately throws the driver to the floor, makes a citizens' arrest and basks in the glare of camera phone flashes until the police arrive to take away the disgraced ex-driver.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good morning all.
    Yes, a good evening for Ukip and remember Ukip is the ONLY party now gaining members as opposed to losing them.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    antifrank said:

    The general public have never thought of George Osborne as a charmer, so this story is pretty much priced into the market.

    I'm curious, who do you think the tories should use to make their case on the economy while squarely putting the blame on labour for it? It will, after all, dominate the next election. So it's somewhat implausable to think that the chancellor can be hidden away from the voter while those economic arguments are in full flow. Nor is relying on Danny Alexander or Vince Cable to do it for him any kind of tenable strategy, amusing as that would no doubt be.

    Osborne's incompetence matters hugely, it's why little Ed and labour have a 10 point lead. Osborne's voter toxicity could actually get even worse. Never underestimate his master strategising ability to turn almost anything into an incompetent omnishambles.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    MikeK said:

    Good morning all.
    Yes, a good evening for Ukip and remember Ukip is the ONLY party now gaining members as opposed to losing them.

    What about the SNP?

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    A strategic disaster could be occuring here for the Conservatives.

    What this Conservative leadership doesn’t seem to understand is – and their personal backgrounds are important here – is that many Conservative voters have no love for the Conservative party.

    In particular those lower down the socioeconomic chain who often associate the Conservative party with the rich / bosses / bankers / landowners / officers.

    These people do vote Conservative but only because they hate Labour and the things they associate with ‘Labour’.

    Now if in their opinion the Conservative party shows itself insufficiently anti-’Labour’ and a new party arises which looks like it will be and perhaps will also be more competant then it will pick up these voters.

    The Conservative leadership were reported as thinking that they could target the 'metropolitans' politically as their own voters 'had nowhere else to go' - the sort of crass, complacent miscalculation which could only have come from a Notting Hill dinner party.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited April 2013

    MikeK said:

    Good morning all.
    Yes, a good evening for Ukip and remember Ukip is the ONLY party now gaining members as opposed to losing them.

    What about the SNP?

    I grant you that SNP is gaining members but UKIP was never going to do good in Scotland while the Nat's bandwagon is still rolling. I was thinking of recruitment below the border.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Mick_Pork said:

    antifrank said:

    The general public have never thought of George Osborne as a charmer, so this story is pretty much priced into the market.

    I'm curious, who do you think the tories should use to make their case on the economy while squarely putting the blame on labour for it? It will, after all, dominate the next election. So it's somewhat implausable to think that the chancellor can be hidden away from the voter while those economic arguments are in full flow. Nor is relying on Danny Alexander or Vince Cable any kind of tenable strategy, amusing as that would no doubt be.

    Osborne's incompetence matters hugely, it's why little Ed and labour have a 10 point lead. Osborne's voter toxicity could actually get even worse. Never underestimate his master strategising ability to turn almost anything into an incompetent omnishambles.
    The Conservatives still have a lead on economic competence. So your last paragraph is simply wrong. As is nearly everything you write, as it happens.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    'near perfect' incompetence.
    New Statesman ‏@NewStatesman

    A reminder of why Osborne is vulnerable: disabled families still aren't exempt from the bedroom tax http://bit.ly/13TFQvp
    We're all in this (disabled parking space) together.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited April 2013
    @Mike. "Old story of liking Tory policies but not Tory Party"

    Most people prefer those more compassionate than themselves. it's the Tory dilemma; However hard headed people think they need to be they are always seen as hard hearted bastards.

    It's all Thatcher's doing and they have as much chance of changing it as Gerald Ratner has of reopening as Asprey's
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    FPT

    More YouGov

    Is Lead by People of Real Ability:
    Labour Voters say: 45% Labour; 41% None of them.

    Is prepared to make tough and unpopular decisions:
    Labour Voters say: 37% Cons; 26% LAB; 3% LD: 22% None; 11% DK
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    FPT re the mentality behind the 'living wage':

    What Britain increasingly resembles is an old drunkard who is continually asking for free drinks on the rationale that he needs them to ‘drink himself sober’.

    Likewise every problem we have will be solved by giving ourselves more money.

    Permanent trade deficit – give us more money
    Falling productivity – give us more money
    Collapsing infrastucture – give us more money
    Soaring debt – give us more money

    The only variance is within the ‘give us more money’ crowd – those on the right want tax cuts, those on the left want more public spending.

    We have as much chance of spending ourselves rich as the old drunkard has of drinking himself sober.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr/Miss Millsy, that's a rather good post. I would offer you a Malteser, but I've eaten them all.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    What about the SNP?

    Cammie decided to keep boosting the SNP membership numbers yesterday by telling scotland how jolly Trident was. No doubt that was another Osbrowne master strategy.

    Kipper membership numbers are also clearly being helped by Cammie every time he bangs on about immigration or the EU.

    He and Osbrowne seem intent on boosting the fortunes of almost every other party bar their own. Generous of them. ;)



  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: man who said Hamilton was mad to join Mercedes say he has the car to win the title:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22034083

    I must admit, I was wondering about backing Hamilton at 3.45 to finish in the top 3. However, he hasn't done that for a little while.

    Vettel, I think, is nearly guaranteed to be top 3. Alonso and Raikkonen will provide very stiff competition for Hamilton too, and Webber could as well [well...]. I'll probably wait until the end of the fly-aways. Just two races in, especially with one sometimes wet, at two very different circuits is not really enough to properly assess the cars.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @politicshomeuk: Former Labour chief sec to the Treasury Lord Myners admits he and Gordon Brown "got it wrong" on bank regulation. #5live
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    Good morning all.
    Yes, a good evening for Ukip and remember Ukip is the ONLY party now gaining members as opposed to losing them.

    What about the SNP?

    I grant you that SNP is gaining members but UKIP was never going to do good in Scotland while the Nat's bandwagon is still rolling. I was thinking of recruitment below the border.

    The Nats bandwagon will keep on rolling. The Scots have a very exciting opportunity next year to shape the entire course of UK politics for the next 10 to 15 years. Increasingly I am of the opinion that a Yes vote is what we all need.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    antifrank said:

    The Conservatives still have a lead on economic competence. So your last paragraph is simply wrong. As is nearly everything you write, as it happens.


    Calm down dear as Cammie would tell you. That lead simply isn't helping them where it mattters most, namely VI. Osbrowne's incompetence is undeniably toxic and resulted in this.


    image


    If you seriously think Osbrowne is an asset for an election campaign, which will clearly be dominated by the economy, then you are as laughably out of touch as the incompetent fops.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Scott_P said:

    @antifrank

    "I'd certainly notice as a passenger if the driver had parked in a disabled bay."

    If you are not in the car at the time? How do you do that?

    I would expect that it was very obvious to him as he walked up to the car , all the yellow lines and wheelchairs plastered over the parking spot would have given him a clue.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    "Most people prefer those more compassionate than themselves. it's the Tory dilemma; However hard headed people think they need to be they are always seen as hard hearted bastards."

    People want governments which are nice to them but nasty to foreigners.

    The voters Cameron is losing / has lost / didn't get in the first place think Cameron wants to be nasty to them and nice to foreigners.


  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    An astute point by Nick Cohen on today's YouGov -


    @MSmithsonPB Interesting, public agrees with Tories on welfare, but not backing them. Old story of liking Tory policies but not Tory Party

    The public agrees with Labour on the 50 pence tax cut. It's swings and roundabouts. The main Tory problem is the toxicity of the party's brand. Today's Osborne story will only reinforce that among the majority of the voting population inclined to dislike the Tories.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Usually when Pork exits a vehicle he has a blanket over his head...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @malcolmg

    "I would expect that it was very obvious to him as he walked up to the car "

    So it was only obvious to him after the fact. Why did he not know in advance his driver would park badly? How can he continue as chancellor?

    Back in the Real World...

    What should he have done at that point?

    Got in the car and driven away? Insisted the car was driven away before he got in?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @cameramanjimITV: Osborne might well be despicable, but not because his driver parked his car in a disabled bay. Mirror could do better than that?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    YouGov HEAT index shows improving economic activity for first time in three years

    The YouGov Household Economic Activity Tracker (HEAT) index climbed 2½ points to 100.4 in March, the highest reading in almost three years. Despite talk of an impending triple-dip recession the HEAT index has risen 6% since the start of the year.

    Crucially, the index is above 100 for the first time since June 2010. A reading above 100 indicates that more households think their economic situation is getting better than getting worse.

    Stephen Harmston, head of YouGov SixthSense, said: “A majority of British workers are feeling secure in their jobs, and many believe that business will either accelerate or hold steady over the coming months. Because of this we are seeing a cautiously optimistic outlook at the grassroots of the British economy.”

    British employees are detecting a pick-up in economic momentum at their places of work. When asked how they thought the level of business activity had changed between February and March, more than one in four (26%) said it increased, the greatest proportion since the survey began in February 2010. Meanwhile, 59% reported steady activity, with the remaining 15% saying it deteriorated.

    Employees are also optimistic about the coming financial year, with 37% of respondents expecting business activity to be higher in a year’s time, compared with just 14% who think it will be lower.

    A solid majority (59%) of British workers say they feel secure in their jobs, and that they are ‘unlikely’ to be laid off. Only 18% of respondents think it is ‘likely’ that they will lose their job in the next 12 months, which is a significant improvement on the 20% who said they were likely to be made redundant last month.

    Dominic White, Chief European Economist at ASR, said: “British households appear to be getting a bit more optimistic about the prospects for UK business, and this goes hand in hand with a feeling of greater job security among workers. For many households, finances are still tight, but if business activity continues to improve and job security holds steady then this could provide households with the confidence they need to start spending a bit more, which is crucial to getting the economy moving again.”

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/04/04/
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    *** BETTING POST ***

    @clarebalding: Narrowing down Grand National shortlist to Chicago Grey, Seabass, Teaforthree, Rare Bob and Oscar Time as a lively outsider (66-1)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    FPT re the mentality behind the 'living wage':

    What Britain increasingly resembles is an old drunkard who is continually asking for free drinks on the rationale that he needs them to ‘drink himself sober’.

    Likewise every problem we have will be solved by giving ourselves more money.

    Permanent trade deficit – give us more money
    Falling productivity – give us more money
    Collapsing infrastucture – give us more money
    Soaring debt – give us more money

    The only variance is within the ‘give us more money’ crowd – those on the right want tax cuts, those on the left want more public spending.

    We have as much chance of spending ourselves rich as the old drunkard has of drinking himself sober.

    The menrality behind the living wage is

    1. We've splurged lots of money and people are no better off
    2. The government has no more money to splurge
    3. Let's see if companies are as stupid as government
    4. If they are we get more tax receipts and can spend it on some more garbage.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    After another long and cold winter Britons are more more persuaded by the concept of 'climate change' than 'global warming'

    In the Climate Change debate, as with so many others, terminology is key. When asked whether "the world is becoming warmer as a result of human activity", 39% of the UK population agrees, down from 43% in June 2012, and 55% in 2008.

    However, when asked whether "the world's climate is changing as a result of human activity", 53% of the population agrees.

    The shift in public support away from the idea that Earth is getting "warmer" however, is most likely explained (as some recent studies have suggested) by the current never-ending winter.

    Clear majorities of Brits believe that weather today is colder, wetter, more extreme and less predictable than it has been in decades past: 61% think the weather has gotten colder and more extreme, 69% say it's gotten less predictable, and nearly three quarters (71%) of the British public think weather in the UK has gotten wetter.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/04/03/climate-change/
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Porky set his alarm for 5am this morning, cut n pasted the Mirror front page image then sat in his y-fronts, sweating over the PC, waiting for the new thread so he could inbed the picture as the first post.

    Unluckily for him, timbo beat him to it, luckily for him nobody came into the polytechnic IT lab.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @markpack
    With all the other stories yesterday, who *really* thinks someone moving Osborne's car to a disabled space by mistake is page 1 news?

    Lots of numpties who post here obviously
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    @TGOHF Harry- Do you often fantasise about other posters 'sweating in their y-fronts'?

    As flattering as you may think it is I'm afraid I shall have to gently rebuff your clumsy overtures. Perhaps one of the tea-party tories could oblige you in your desperate quest for an intimate friend?
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    edited April 2013
    Mirror non story.

    Why didn't it wait to find out all the facts?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Financier said:

    After another long and cold winter Britons are more more persuaded by the concept of 'climate change' than 'global warming'

    In the Climate Change debate, as with so many others, terminology is key. When asked whether "the world is becoming warmer as a result of human activity", 39% of the UK population agrees, down from 43% in June 2012, and 55% in 2008.

    However, when asked whether "the world's climate is changing as a result of human activity", 53% of the population agrees.

    The shift in public support away from the idea that Earth is getting "warmer" however, is most likely explained (as some recent studies have suggested) by the current never-ending winter.

    Clear majorities of Brits believe that weather today is colder, wetter, more extreme and less predictable than it has been in decades past: 61% think the weather has gotten colder and more extreme, 69% say it's gotten less predictable, and nearly three quarters (71%) of the British public think weather in the UK has gotten wetter.

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/04/03/climate-change/

    more fun will be how do they react to "change". if we're getting colder weather how does shutting down power generation help us when we need to turn up the central heating ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Mick_Pork said:

    @TGOHF Harry- Do you often fantasise about other posters 'sweating in their y-fronts'?

    As flattering as you may think it is I'm afraid I shall have to gently rebuff your clumsy overtures. Perhaps one of the tea-party tories could oblige you in your desperate quest for an intimate friend?

    Would the rest of the chaps in D wing get jealous ?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Forecourt sales of petrol have plunged by more than 20% in five years, the AA has said.

    The motoring organisation said official government figures showed 17 billion litres were sold last year compared to 22 billion in 2007.

    The AA said rising prices and greater use of smaller and diesel vehicles had contributed to the fall in consumption.

    Combined with an increase in the sale of diesel, total vehicle fuel sales fell by 9% over the past five years.

    The AA said the decrease was the equivalent of 35 days of business being lost since the start of the economic crisis.

    Diesel sales increased from 14 billion litres in 2007 to 16 billion litres in 2012.

    More recently, petrol sales decreased from 18.27 billion litres in 2011 to 17.42 billion litres last year.
    'Huge toll'

    Petrol Retailers Association chairman Brian Madderson said: "It's amazing to think that just four years ago, in spring 2009, petrol was £1 a litre. For £20 you could get 20 litres. Today when you spend £20 at the forecourt you get less than 15 litres.

    "In 2000, 10% of new cars were diesel. Last year, over 50% of new cars were diesel and with that kind of change, and motorists cutting back on discretionary spending we do see right across the UK petrol sales in steep decline."

    AA president Edmund King said: "Greater take-up of diesel cars and smaller petrol vehicles has contributed to this overall decline in UK fuel sales over the long term.

    "However, soaring pump prices have taken a huge toll on petrol sales more recently - during the 10p-a-litre price surges last March and October, pump sales of petrol fell by up to 5%."

    "The trouble is that, with global economic recovery, the stock market will predict greater oil and fuel demand and push up commodity values accordingly.

    He added: "Drivers' fuel consumption and retail survivability are already precarious. What will happen when the speculators pump themselves up with bullish sentiment and send prices soaring yet again?"

    The AA highlighted figures produced by the Department of Energy and Climate Change.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22035949
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Financier, that'd be more impressive if the previous consensus had been a steady state/unchanging climate. It's always changed, and we've known this for ages.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Scott_P said:

    @markpack
    With all the other stories yesterday, who *really* thinks someone moving Osborne's car to a disabled space by mistake is page 1 news?

    I'm afraid that esteemed lib dem may not be the most reliable source when it comes to knowing what is and is not news when it comes to politicians and motoring stories. Mr Huhne's 'little mistake' being the prime example.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    TGOHF said:

    Would the rest of the chaps in D wing get jealous ?


    You shall have to ask them yourself Harry as sadly I cannot serve as an 'agony aunt' to you for your own convoluted 'friendships' with the chaps in D wing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,768
    @Financier

    Maybe they were all watching Horizon on BBC 4 this week about Weather Weirding.

    It was interesting because there was far, far less about anthropomorphic global warming than would have been taken for granted just a couple of years ago. That clearly had been put back on the unproven pile.

    What there was, which people will find a lot more convincing, was a greater emphasis on climate change with a different perspective. So it was pointed out by reference to ice samples that the last 8000 years whilst human civilisation developed were a remarkably stable time with the odd incident like the mini ice age 300 years ago; that hurricances were increasing in their frequency and power (not sure how up to date that was); the influence of the sun on our climate and our current weather and how the sensible thing to do now was to build and prepare for greater extremities in the weather.

    It struck me as an attempt to describe a new consensus on climate that made many of the old arguments fairly redundant. It would be nice if this fed into debate about the climate levy.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Scott_P said:

    @markpack
    With all the other stories yesterday, who *really* thinks someone moving Osborne's car to a disabled space by mistake is page 1 news?

    Lots of numpties who post here obviously

    The fact that thousands of disabled people have had their state support cut thanks to the recent welfare changes is a big story outside of PB. Obviously, a number of posters on here would prefer to sweep that under the carpet to concentrate instead on the depravity of a childkiller. But that's PB for you, I suppose.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Face it Pork - you got rumbled trying to put your own little special picture on the thread starting post. Are you a frustrated blogger ? Do you dream of people coming to a site made and set up by the famous Mr Pork ?

    Is that why you hate newspapers so much ? Do you dream of starting your own paper that will show those evil toffs up in a bad light - and will bring the truth to the sad little uneducated peons - who if only they new the facts would never write for a horrid right wing party ever again ??

    "Look at ye olde channel 4 data oh pitiful peasants - behold the truth from my own hand.."


  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    The fact that thousands of disabled people have had their state support cut thanks to the recent welfare changes is a big story

    and is not related in any way to someone who is not the chancellor parking a car.

    Obviously a number of posters on here would rather talk about parking and sweep under the carpet the depravity of a benefit funded childkiller. But that's PB for you, I suppose.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    But that's PB for you, I suppose

    To be more accurate that's PB tories for you. They just never learn.
    ITV News ‏@itvnews 3m

    Disability campaigner: Osborne mistake shows 'his contempt for disabled people' http://itv.co/13WzL2c
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    TGOHF said:

    "Look at ye olde channel 4 data oh pitiful peasants - behold the truth from my own hand.."

    Try not to get spittle all over the keyboard Harry, this is a most undignified display of demented hysteria from you. Calm down dear. :)

  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited April 2013
    Scott_P said:


    The fact that thousands of disabled people have had their state support cut thanks to the recent welfare changes is a big story

    and is not related in any way to someone who is not the chancellor parking a car.

    Obviously a number of posters on here would rather talk about parking and sweep under the carpet the depravity of a benefit funded childkiller. But that's PB for you, I suppose.
    It's a boneheaded move by the Chancellor and his team though. He should know better.

    Lots of people quickly park in free disabled bays or double yellow lines to rush to get something but none of those people are deeply unpopular CotE's or people with a hungry media looking at their every move.

    Dumb stuff from Osborne. You can spin it all you like (and I agree it isn't a story, really) but that won't stop the 24hr news media dragging up quotes from every disabled person in the northern hemisphere about how arrogant and shameful it is.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The Mirrror.."Despicable"..It certainly is as a newspaper..dreadful level of reporting,how does it survive,does anyone actually buy the thing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,768
    On topic (and why not) it seems to me that the success of UKIP is being driven by typical mid term blues for the government and the complete lack of a credible opposition. In past Parliaments the Lib Dems would have been making hay at this point but they are now tainted by the stains of office so people are turning elsewhere.

    The limiting factor for UKIP in the past has been the fact that they consisted almost entirely of arm chair generals and no foot soldiers giving them no ground operation. Success in local elections could begin to change that but they have an incredibly long way to go to match the Lib dems, for example.

    If they were able to tap into the general disaffection in May this would be their best chance, possibly ever, to put down some real roots and become a serious part of the political scene as opposed to a demonstration of Labour ineptitude.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    TGOHF said:

    Usually when Pork exits a vehicle he has a blanket over his head...

    Why would that be Harry? I'm not the one professing to have friends in D wing, you are.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Fenster

    If the chancellor was not driving, and was not in the car when it was parked, what exactly did he do that was boneheaded?

    "Chancellor should never get out of a car driven by someone else"

    That is the level of debate the Leftards are reduced to?

    "Dumb stuff from Osborne"

    What dumb stuff did Osborne, not his driver, do?

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Scott P: what Osborne should have done, when he saw the car was parked in a disabled bay, is simply to tell the driver not to do it again. If he had, the Treasury sources who responded to the media would have mentioned it. The public will probably suspect that his driver is used to his boss not being concerned about such things.

    That charmlessness is a crippling handicap for the Tories. Take this week: they clearly think they are on the popular side of the benefits argument, but when Osborne makes a widely-reported speech on the issue the impact on VI is zero (or negative, if you go by the latest twitch in YouGov).

    The public is following politics with detached interest, akin to people keeping an eye on the tennis while making lunch. They note that someone scores a point, but it doen't affect what appears to be their settled intention to change the governhment at the first opportunity.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    The Sun leader

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/4508014/The-Sun-says-Building-for-the-future.html

    "LABOUR predictably blew a fuse yesterday as George Osborne suggested the trial of child killer Mick Philpott highlighted the need for welfare reform.

    Ed Balls accused the Chancellor of “cynical” exploitation.
    Union boss Len McCluskey said he had “demonised” anyone who was on benefits.
    These are knee-jerk reactions that owe everything to political point-scoring and add precisely nothing to a vital debate about Britain’s future.

    No one is saying the welfare system created the monster that is Philpott. He is an evil man with a history of appalling violence that is utterly unrelated to his personal circumstances.
    But his six children died because of his desperation to continue milking a lax benefits system that allowed him to pocket close to £4,000 a month.

    A system that actively encourages an unscrupulous minority to view their children as cash-cows providing no-questions-asked access to public funds.
    The investigation into the Philpott children’s tragedy revealed a depravity and parental callousness that shocked the nation.

    It also shone a light on a world in which welfare is seen not as a helping hand when things get tough — but as a lifelong subsidy.

    Of course Balls and McCluskey don’t want to talk about that — because it doesn’t suit their political agenda.
    Which is truly cynical."

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    The Mirrror.."Despicable"..It certainly is as a newspaper..dreadful level of reporting,how does it survive,does anyone actually buy the thing.

    Its not quite up their with their fake torture pics. Or the Ulrika story they got from {CENSORED}
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    We're all in this together, aren't we Osbrowne?
    Andrew Rynham ‏@tpasandy 3 Apr

    Hey @George_Osborne here's different people & their 'ill-informed rubbish' http://bit.ly/Z0YOt2 NHF, Shelter, CAB, Mencap, Scope, RNIB...
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited April 2013
    AlanB



    "more fun will be how do they react to "change". if we're getting colder weather how does shutting down power generation help us when we need to turn up the central heating" ?


    Tut, tut. Obviously you do not worship at the altar of the Green/EU god. In fact you are a prime candidate to be sent away to the re-education camp where you will have to knit your own night-cap, wooly jumpers, bed socks, long johns etc.

    Seriously though, we all have to learn to use less energy and to use it more efficiently. It will be a long time before enough renewables come on stream to replace hydrocarbon energy sources - for that you have thank the inactivity by the last HMG and by recent Energy Secs.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This is the reason for the increasingly ludicrous desire to talk about parking

    @Sun_Politics: "Philpott's six children died because of his desperation to continue milking a lax benefits system", The Sun Says http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/article4508014.ece
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Scott_P said:


    The fact that thousands of disabled people have had their state support cut thanks to the recent welfare changes is a big story

    and is not related in any way to someone who is not the chancellor parking a car.

    Obviously a number of posters on here would rather talk about parking and sweep under the carpet the depravity of a benefit funded childkiller. But that's PB for you, I suppose.

    Thankfully, there is only one known childkilling welfare abuser in this country and he is now behind bars. Good. He deserves everything he gets and more. Unfortunately, there are literally thousands of disabled people who have seen their state support reduced because George Osborne wants to show he is on the side of people who do the right thing. What, I wonder, have the disabled adversely affected by the changes done wrong?

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    "Aspiration Nation"

    Benefit cuts are fuelling abuse of disabled people, say charities

    Rising public resentment blamed on government focus on alleged 'scrounger' fraud and inflammatory media coverage


    The government's focus on alleged fraud and overclaiming to justify cuts in disability benefits has caused an increase in resentment and abuse directed at disabled people, as they find themselves being labelled as scroungers, six of the country's biggest disability groups have warned.

    Some of the charities say they are now regularly contacted by people who have been taunted on the street about supposedly faking their disability and are concerned the climate of suspicion could spill over into violence or other hate crimes.

    While the charities speaking out – Scope, Mencap, Leonard Cheshire Disability, the National Autistic Society, Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB), and Disability Alliance – say inflammatory media coverage has played a role in this, they primarily blame ministers and civil servants for repeatedly highlighting the supposed mass abuse of the disability benefits system, much of which is unfounded.

    At the same time, they say, the focus on "fairness for taxpayers" has fostered the notion that disabled people are a separate group who don't contribute.

    Scope's regular polling of people with disabilities shows that in September two-thirds said they had experienced recent hostility or taunts, up from 41% four months before. In the last poll almost half said attitudes towards them had deteriorated in the past year.

    Tom Madders, head of campaigns at the National Autistic Society, said: "The Department for Work and Pensions is certainly guilty of helping to drive this media narrative around benefits, portraying those who receive benefits as workshy scroungers or abusing a system that's really easy to cheat."

    He added that ministers such as the work and pensions secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, were being "deeply irresponsible" in conflating Disability Living Allowance (DLA), which helps disabled people hold down jobs, and Employment and Support Allowance (ESA), a payment for those unable to work. This "scrounger rhetoric" was already having an impact on people's lives, Madders said, citing a woman who rang the charity to say a neighbour who formerly gave lifts to her autistic child had stopped doing so following press articles about disabled people receiving free cars under a government scheme.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/05/benefit-cuts-fuelling-abuse-disabled-people

    image

    Poster boys for the nasty party.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Financier said:

    AlanB

    "more fun will be how do they react to "change". if we're getting colder weather how does shutting down power generation help us when we need to turn up the central heating" ?


    Tut, tut. Obviously you do not worship at the altar of the Green/EU god. In fact you are a prime candidate to be sent away to the re-education camp where you will have to knit your own night-cap, wooly jumpers, bed socks, long johns etc.

    Seriously though, we all have to learn to use less energy and to use it more efficiently. It will be a long time before enough renewables come on stream to replace hydrocarbon energy sources - for that you have thank the inactivity by the last HMG and by recent Energy Secs.

    Actually I don't have anything against a sensible renewables policy on the grounds of reducing energy dependency on imports. Oil will run out and we'll be left with another huge hole in our BOP unless we find alternative energy sources.I just think renewables should stand on their own two feet without needing susbsidy. In the meantime I'm left enjoying the irony of lefties demanding everything carbon based closes down and me a rightie shouting Coal not Dole :-).
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Scott_P said:

    This is the reason for the increasingly ludicrous desire to talk about parking

    @Sun_Politics: "Philpott's six children died because of his desperation to continue milking a lax benefits system", The Sun Says http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/article4508014.ece

    I disagree. I believe they died because Philpott is a wicked schemer who as far back as the 1970s demonstrated his depravity by attempting to murder his then girlfriend.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Would Philpott have benefited from the bedroom tax changes?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    @Financier

    That post seems to have merged with yours , reposted

    Actually I don't have anything against a sensible renewables policy on the grounds of reducing energy dependency on imports. Oil will run out and we'll be left with another huge hole in our BOP unless we find alternative energy sources.I just think renewables should stand on their own two feet without needing susbsidy. In the meantime I'm left enjoying the irony of lefties demanding everything carbon based closes down and me a rightie shouting Coal not Dole :-).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Observer, bedrooms are not being taxed.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited April 2013
    @Financier:

    "Forecourt sales of petrol have plunged by more than 20% in five years, the AA has said.

    The motoring organisation said official government figures showed 17 billion litres were sold last year compared to 22 billion in 2007.

    Diesel sales increased from 14 billion litres in 2007 to 16 billion litres in 2012."


    Given that Diesel cars are far more economical than those fuelled by petrol, this must surely mean that there are far more cars and vans on our roads which run on diesel as opposed to those run on petrol.

    That's amazing - at least to me it is - I would have thought that overall petrol outsold diesel fuelled vehicles by at least 2:1


  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Thankfully, there is only one known childkilling welfare abuser in this country and he is now behind bars.

    That is almost certainly not true.

    Given the gross enlargement of the welfare state under Gordo, the statistical likelihood is that most convicted childkillers were in receipt of benefits.

    The important question is whether the culture of welfare dependency is a contributory factor or healthy for the country, to which the Left's increasingly hysterical response is OSBORNE!! IN A CAR!!!!!

    It's infantile, but no more than we have come to expect.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    @DavidL - agree, too soon to say whether this is something more than "mid-term protest voting" as, as you observe, the previous recipients of protest votes are now in government too. Why ignoring immigration and the EU, as some seem to think Cameron should do will make these issues "go away" is yet to be explained - but I guess we've got as much chance of that as Labour explaining what their policy on welfare reform might be. The hysteria following the Mail article and Osborne comment suggests they know they are on the wrong side of public opinion on this - but can't work out how to get down off the back this tiger without getting eaten. And I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked, that today Daily Mirror readers might have had Osborne's reputation lowered in their estimation...
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349

    Many people vote against a party rather than for one, so the trick is to reduce the ammunition available against you. Reducing the 50p tax rate is an example. What solid evidence is there that it increases the tax take? The posh fop argument may be silly but it has a little traction, especially when you help exaggerate it.

    Labour's weakness is the hyperbole, especially from the more left wing unions and the SWP sort, and the welfare issue. Benefit-fiddling does go on, and relatively posh people denying it makes people even more angry.

    No wonder UKIP is thriving.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited April 2013
    @NickP

    "what Osborne should have done, when he saw the car was parked in a disabled bay....."

    It wasn't that he parked in a disabled bay that particularly made me think that Osborne was behaving like a despicable Tory (I see young fit people bouncing out of cars with disabled badges all the time which is just as bad) but that he was driving one of those huge 4x4 'fu*k-off' Torymobiles.
  • Another Labour supporting writer (Philip Collins) joins Riddell, Rentoul, Rawnsley & Peter Watt in pointing out that Ed Milliband is bereft of policy substance and needs to fix it quickly.

    "The voters have decided that we spend too much on welfare. Miliband must offer them more than silence in reply " "Seven out of ten people agree that the country needs to spend less on welfare. To this unanswerable fact there has come silence from the Labour Party and vituperation from the Labour movement. The party has no policy to speak of."

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/philipcollins/article3731420.ece
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,768
    @Mick_Pork

    I am sorry Mick but if you wanted clear, unequivocal evidence of the state beyond the state that was built by the last government of charities that are dependent upon government funds and grants and have become politically motivated pressure groups seeking to drive spending of borrowed money higher you really could not do much better than that article.

    It certainly makes the government's task more difficult, it makes the media coverage more hostile and it has a political effect on the standing of the government.

    What they do not do is offer any solutions except spend. After the quangoes there is another layer of Labour placemen to be dismantled and professionalised, high paying charities are going to find themselves very vulnerable.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Mr. Observer, bedrooms are not being taxed.

    Would Philpott have benefited from the changes? The answer is yes: he had a big family living in cramped conditions and needed a bigger house. Given that the consensus among right wing posters on here seems to be that Philpott is an extreme example of a large number of feckless, child-breeding benefit dependent scroungers, it seems as if the government has created a new incentive for them to carry on behaving as they are. Clearly, they are doingt he right thing. The Tories must be courting their votes. That's why these things are done, isn't it?

  • There are more writers from the SNP supporting Labour's position of opposing every welfare change (at least on here) than the people that are in that party!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Roger said:

    he was driving one of those huge black 4x4 'fu*k-off' Torymobiles.

    He wasn't driving.

    This is just getting painful
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Scott_P said:

    @Fenster

    If the chancellor was not driving, and was not in the car when it was parked, what exactly did he do that was boneheaded?

    "Chancellor should never get out of a car driven by someone else"

    That is the level of debate the Leftards are reduced to?

    "Dumb stuff from Osborne"

    What dumb stuff did Osborne, not his driver, do?

    The 'dumb stuff' he did was get himself coverage on the 24hr news cycle about parking in disabled bays. It's leading the ITV news!

    This is not good. George and his people should be spectacularly aware of every potential pitfall. Can you imagine this happening to, say, Gordon Brown, if Alastair Campbell had been in the car with him?

    The Tories are on thin ice. Making reforms which are hurting. Cutting money from people who hate them anyway. If they are to carry the wider public with them through these reforms they need to tread more carefully. As Nick Palmer says below, a little charm and humility wouldn't go amiss.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Observer, that's a good argument for limiting child benefit to the first X children (whether, 2, 3 or 4) and for an absolute benefits cap (opposed by Labour) of £26,000.

    Well. £26,000 is still far too high, but at least it's a start.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Mr. Observer, bedrooms are not being taxed.

    Would Philpott have benefited from the changes? The answer is yes: he had a big family living in cramped conditions and needed a bigger house. Given that the consensus among right wing posters on here seems to be that Philpott is an extreme example of a large number of feckless, child-breeding benefit dependent scroungers, it seems as if the government has created a new incentive for them to carry on behaving as they are. Clearly, they are doingt he right thing. The Tories must be courting their votes. That's why these things are done, isn't it?

    But the point remains bedrooms are not being taxed. I have four bedrooms in my house of which two are not occupied, I haven't received a tax demand.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Scott_P said:


    Thankfully, there is only one known childkilling welfare abuser in this country and he is now behind bars.

    That is almost certainly not true.

    Given the gross enlargement of the welfare state under Gordo, the statistical likelihood is that most convicted childkillers were in receipt of benefits.

    The important question is whether the culture of welfare dependency is a contributory factor or healthy for the country, to which the Left's increasingly hysterical response is OSBORNE!! IN A CAR!!!!!

    It's infantile, but no more than we have come to expect.

    I understand why you would want to ignore the fact that thousands of disabled people - who clearly do not do the right thing - have had their state support reduced. But it has happened and today's Osborne story is a perfect hook to use to highlight that point.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    DavidL said:

    @Mick_Pork

    I am sorry Mick but if you wanted clear, unequivocal evidence of the state beyond the state that was built by the last government of charities that are dependent upon government funds and grants and have become politically motivated pressure groups seeking to drive spending of borrowed money higher you really could not do much better than that article.

    It certainly makes the government's task more difficult, it makes the media coverage more hostile and it has a political effect on the standing of the government.

    What they do not do is offer any solutions except spend. After the quangoes there is another layer of Labour placemen to be dismantled and professionalised, high paying charities are going to find themselves very vulnerable.

    All those who criticise the Tories must be eliminated ...

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    I wonder if Osborne has asked for a chance to prove that he is really effective when given some promising issues to run with, and Cameron has told his old friend he can have a go, but if it doesn't work out, then...? Otherwise it is indeed baffling that he's fronting a welfare issue, when (a) it's IDS's brief and (b) even lefties like me credit IDS with some good intentions on this.

    pfp - most lorries run on diesel, I think, and probably consume more fuel than several cars put together? Just guessing.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Fenster said:


    The 'dumb stuff' he did was get himself coverage on the 24hr news cycle

    What did Osborne do to get himself on the news, and what could he have done differently?

    He wasn't driving. He wasn't in the car when it was parked.

    Are you really suggesting he should never get in a car ever again in case the driver does something really stupid?

    Blaming Osborne for the actions of his driver is feeble, and you know it.

    Yachtgate. Traingate. Cargate.

    It is not going to end his career. Give it up already.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Mr. Observer, bedrooms are not being taxed.

    Would Philpott have benefited from the changes? The answer is yes: he had a big family living in cramped conditions and needed a bigger house. Given that the consensus among right wing posters on here seems to be that Philpott is an extreme example of a large number of feckless, child-breeding benefit dependent scroungers, it seems as if the government has created a new incentive for them to carry on behaving as they are. Clearly, they are doingt he right thing. The Tories must be courting their votes. That's why these things are done, isn't it?

    But the point remains bedrooms are not being taxed. I have four bedrooms in my house of which two are not occupied, I haven't received a tax demand.

    And Labour was never proposing to tax death.

    The main point here is that the changes will benefit the thousands of feckless, baby-breeding scroungers that we are told are out there abusing the system. They have now been given further incentives to breed.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    DavidL said:

    @Mick_PorkI am sorry Mick but if you wanted clear, unequivocal evidence of the state beyond the state that was built by the last government of charities that are dependent upon government funds and grants and have become politically motivated pressure groups seeking to drive spending of borrowed money higher you really could not do much better than that article


    I am sorry you have a curiously tea party style understanding of things. Everyone who opposes your view must be members of the librul meeja or a vested interest of the 'state', is that it? The 'Big Society' rhetoric passed you by did it? Understandable since the voter certainly didn't find it remotely plausable considering it's source.

    Who do you suppose the voters trust more on such things?
    MPs like Osbrowne and Cammie or disability charities?

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    I wonder if Osborne has asked for a chance to prove that he is really effective when given some promising issues to run with, and Cameron has told his old friend he can have a go, but if it doesn't work out, then...? Otherwise it is indeed baffling that he's fronting a welfare issue, when (a) it's IDS's brief and (b) even lefties like me credit IDS with some good intentions on this.

    pfp - most lorries run on diesel, I think, and probably consume more fuel than several cars put together? Just guessing.

    Indeed - the contrast between IDS and Osborne is always hugely telling.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Mr. Observer, bedrooms are not being taxed.

    Would Philpott have benefited from the changes? The answer is yes: he had a big family living in cramped conditions and needed a bigger house. Given that the consensus among right wing posters on here seems to be that Philpott is an extreme example of a large number of feckless, child-breeding benefit dependent scroungers, it seems as if the government has created a new incentive for them to carry on behaving as they are. Clearly, they are doingt he right thing. The Tories must be courting their votes. That's why these things are done, isn't it?

    But the point remains bedrooms are not being taxed. I have four bedrooms in my house of which two are not occupied, I haven't received a tax demand.

    And Labour was never proposing to tax death.

    The main point here is that the changes will benefit the thousands of feckless, baby-breeding scroungers that we are told are out there abusing the system. They have now been given further incentives to breed.


    Which just shows how getting the govewrnment involved in micro decisions is nonsense. Politicians and civil servants can never foresee all the unintended consequences of their actions. Get people in to work let them keep their money and let them look after themselves.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pointed out yesterday that the demographics in NE Lincs are about as good as it gets for UKIP so no surprise to see them winning there.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    DavidL said:

    After the quangoes there is another layer of Labour placemen to be dismantled and professionalised, high paying charities are going to find themselves very vulnerable.

    You do realise how paranoid that sounds, don't you?

    BTW You simply have it wrong on quangos. It is yet another example of govt. incompetence.

    MPs condemn coalition's bonfire of the quangos as botched

    Respected parliamentary select committee brands coalition plans as naive and badly managed, and that flagship policy will cost more than it saves


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jan/07/mps-committee-bonfire-quangos-botched
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    tim said:

    @SouthamObserver

    Given that The decision was taken by Osborne to exempt pensioners from cuts and the bedroom tax and target the disabled instead he can't really whinge when he reaps the consequences.
    It's a deliberate strategy he thought through, looking at voter turnout - the PB Tories whining wont change that.

    I am still puzzled as to why Osbornew would want to create further incentives for the thousands, nay tens of thousands, of feckless, welfare scrounger wasters out there to breed more children. Does he really want to see disabled people evicted from their homes so that all those Philpott-like families can get the homes of their dreams at the expense of the taxpayer, even if those disabled people have not done the right thing?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Spot on, Mr. Brooke.

    A simpler system of lower taxation and fewer handouts would diminish the scope for abuse, reduce the cost to the taxpayer and be far more transparent. In fairness to the Coalition, they have cut income tax (effectively).

    I'd extend that principle to MPs, too. Give them a pay rise to circa £100,000 and no expenses at all beyond a small number of staff.
  • @Financier:

    "Forecourt sales of petrol have plunged by more than 20% in five years, the AA has said.

    The motoring organisation said official government figures showed 17 billion litres were sold last year compared to 22 billion in 2007.

    Diesel sales increased from 14 billion litres in 2007 to 16 billion litres in 2012."


    Given that Diesel cars are far more economical than those fuelled by petrol, this must surely mean that there are far more cars and vans on our roads which run on diesel as opposed to those run on petrol.

    That's amazing - at least to me it is - I would have thought that overall petrol outsold diesel fuelled vehicles by at least 2:1


    Petrol fuelled vehicles might possibly outsell diesel fuelled. The issue here is that a lorry (which will be diesel) will use more (it is heavier) and do more miles.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Roger said:

    he was driving one of those huge black 4x4 'fu*k-off' Torymobiles.

    Silver British built Land Rover - a British success story - which you seem keen to denigrate:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/land-rover/9785115/Jaguar-Land-Rovers-record-year-in-the-UK.html

    "All this from a car-maker that was sold by Ford in 2008 to Indian company Tata, and was then refused state loans from the UK Government in 2009. It was hard to imagine that by 2012 JLR could be on target for pre-tax profits of £1.5 billion, but that's exactly what's happened."
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Mr. Observer, bedrooms are not being taxed.

    Would Philpott have benefited from the changes? The answer is yes: he had a big family living in cramped conditions and needed a bigger house. Given that the consensus among right wing posters on here seems to be that Philpott is an extreme example of a large number of feckless, child-breeding benefit dependent scroungers, it seems as if the government has created a new incentive for them to carry on behaving as they are. Clearly, they are doingt he right thing. The Tories must be courting their votes. That's why these things are done, isn't it?

    But the point remains bedrooms are not being taxed. I have four bedrooms in my house of which two are not occupied, I haven't received a tax demand.

    And Labour was never proposing to tax death.

    The main point here is that the changes will benefit the thousands of feckless, baby-breeding scroungers that we are told are out there abusing the system. They have now been given further incentives to breed.


    Which just shows how getting the govewrnment involved in micro decisions is nonsense. Politicians and civil servants can never foresee all the unintended consequences of their actions. Get people in to work let them keep their money and let them look after themselves.

    But I thought that Labour had deliberately created a system so that people like Philpott would vote for them. Or is it just Tories that cannot "foresee all the unintended consequences of their actions"?

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    An astute point by Nick Cohen on today's YouGov -


    @MSmithsonPB Interesting, public agrees with Tories on welfare, but not backing them. Old story of liking Tory policies but not Tory Party

    Mid term yes, general elections are another matter.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Scott_P said:

    Roger said:

    he was driving one of those huge black 4x4 'fu*k-off' Torymobiles.

    He wasn't driving.

    This is just getting painful
    It just like the train story. If George Osborne personally did ANYTHING untoward to anyone right now the papers, BBC, Mirror would be all over it in a flash. Instead we have this story that is quite obviously the fault of his driver. Did anyone demand Straw's resignation over his 100 mph police outdriver ?

    Because whilst plenty of people probably wanted to see Straw out and plenty don't like Osborne to cast so much shit over Ministers due to their driver's actions is quite pathetic.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Spot on, Mr. Brooke.

    A simpler system of lower taxation and fewer handouts would diminish the scope for abuse, reduce the cost to the taxpayer and be far more transparent. In fairness to the Coalition, they have cut income tax (effectively).

    I'd extend that principle to MPs, too. Give them a pay rise to circa £100,000 and no expenses at all beyond a small number of staff.


    The weakness remains they have yet to make the kind of simplification of benefits that need to happen. IDS has made some progress but he still has a mountain to move.
  • I wonder if Osborne has asked for a chance to prove that he is really effective when given some promising issues to run with, and Cameron has told his old friend he can have a go, but if it doesn't work out, then...?

    I did wonder the same. It may be make or break.

  • @NickP
    "most lorries run on diesel, I think, and probably consume more fuel than several cars put together? Just guessing."

    A normal 44 tonne artic is 8-10mpg. A Special types low loader is about 4mpg
This discussion has been closed.