"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."
Exactly. At no point did Cameron say Leavers were Little Englanders, unless Leavers are now claiming they were indeed disciples of Farage, which some of them have been vehemently denying for months
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
I think far too much is made of this comment. 'Little Englanders' is a term that's been around for a long time to characterise English isolationism.
Mr. Eagles, if Cameron had negotiated a deal worth the name, campaigned in a mediocre rather than abysmal fashion, had an answer at all on migration, avoided denigrating the half of the electorate considering voting for Leave or generally avoided being arrogant, complacent and incompetent regarding the referendum and the period prior (deal negotiation) Remain would've won.
Leave winning was like expecting eight heads in a row when tossing a coin. Not impossible, but long odds against. Cameron contrived to screw up the referendum horrendously. The vast majority of the UK electorate is English, so calling potential Leavers 'Little Englanders' was as daft as when Clinton referred to the 'basket of deplorables'.
When you want someone to vote your way, insulting them is a special kind of stupid.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Isam, point of order: a gaffe is an accident. Cameron made a choice, and a damned silly one.
Mr. P, that was undoubtedly Cameron's desire (for a couple of weeks he kept banging on about Farage) but it was about as successful as a broadsword of blancmange.
On a personal level, it is a tragedy that Gove, who was Ivan Cameron's godfather is on such bad terms now with David and Sam Cameron.
I'm afraid that says a lot about the Camerons.
I disagree, I know a bit more about it than most, and I don't wish to break personal confidences.
Put it this way, in late 2015, Gove assured Cameron that whilst he would be backing Leave, he would not campaign for Leave, nor criticise the government.
He failed to adhere to his promises.
Why do you think post referendum Boris and Dave bonded over a mutual betrayal by Gove?
And Cameron promised to get a good deal for Britain. Things change, if Cameron is so precious about these things he really shouldn't have gone into politics.
The day everything changed was that day in February when Cameron came back from Brussels with his supposed "deal", the reaction from 2/3 of the Conservatives on here that day should have told him the referendum was going to be a difficult sell.
On a personal level, it is a tragedy that Gove, who was Ivan Cameron's godfather is on such bad terms now with David and Sam Cameron.
I'm afraid that says a lot about the Camerons.
I disagree, I know a bit more about it than most, and I don't wish to break personal confidences.
Put it this way, in late 2015, Gove assured Cameron that whilst he would be backing Leave, he would not campaign for Leave, nor criticise the government.
He failed to adhere to his promises.
Why do you think post referendum Boris and Dave bonded over a mutual betrayal by Gove?
I also have personal testimony, from someone very involved in this, and I can say that this is not true.
We'll have to wait for Cameron's autobiography for the definitive account.
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
On a personal level, it is a tragedy that Gove, who was Ivan Cameron's godfather is on such bad terms now with David and Sam Cameron.
I'm afraid that says a lot about the Camerons.
I disagree, I know a bit more about it than most, and I don't wish to break personal confidences.
Put it this way, in late 2015, Gove assured Cameron that whilst he would be backing Leave, he would not campaign for Leave, nor criticise the government.
He failed to adhere to his promises.
Why do you think post referendum Boris and Dave bonded over a mutual betrayal by Gove?
I also have personal testimony, from someone very involved in this, and I can say that this is not true.
I'm more interested in the betrayal of Boris... Where was I reading that Osborne told Gove to run only to scupper Boris and not as a serious effort to win himself? Anyone know if there's any truth in that?
On a personal level, it is a tragedy that Gove, who was Ivan Cameron's godfather is on such bad terms now with David and Sam Cameron.
I'm afraid that says a lot about the Camerons.
I disagree, I know a bit more about it than most, and I don't wish to break personal confidences.
Put it this way, in late 2015, Gove assured Cameron that whilst he would be backing Leave, he would not campaign for Leave, nor criticise the government.
He failed to adhere to his promises.
Why do you think post referendum Boris and Dave bonded over a mutual betrayal by Gove?
I also have personal testimony, from someone very involved in this, and I can say that this is not true.
We'll have to wait for Cameron's autobiography for the definitive account.
LOL HIs autobiography is unlikely to be a definitive account, more like a self-justification. Again, apply Nietzsche quote from earlier.
On a personal level, it is a tragedy that Gove, who was Ivan Cameron's godfather is on such bad terms now with David and Sam Cameron.
I'm afraid that says a lot about the Camerons.
I disagree, I know a bit more about it than most, and I don't wish to break personal confidences.
Put it this way, in late 2015, Gove assured Cameron that whilst he would be backing Leave, he would not campaign for Leave, nor criticise the government.
He failed to adhere to his promises.
Why do you think post referendum Boris and Dave bonded over a mutual betrayal by Gove?
I also have personal testimony, from someone very involved in this, and I can say that this is not true.
We'll have to wait for Cameron's autobiography for the definitive account.
That's a bit too starry-eyed even for you, Mr Eagles. We'll have to wait for the autobiography for the definitive version of Cameron's side of the story, you mean.
Honestly, I've seen it all, now. A lawyer who actually believes his own client...
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
Possibly, or more likely it made zero difference.
Even the murder of a pretty Remain MP by a right wing loon couldn't stop the Leave train, so you're almost certainly right
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."
Exactly. At no point did Cameron say Leavers were Little Englanders, unless Leavers are now claiming they were indeed disciples of Farage, which some of them have been vehemently denying for months
So what would your reaction be if I told you there were two options for interpreting what he said, and that you picked the moronic one? After all, I'm not calling you a moron...
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
Even the murder of a pretty Remain MP by a right wing loon couldn't stop the Leave train, so you're almost certainly right
I never thought that horrendous murder would make any difference at all to the vote. British voters are actually very mature and unsentimental about this kind of thing; they are quite capable of simultaneously being rightly horrified by the action of some loony thug, and realising that it is completely irrelevant to the question being asked on the ballot paper.
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
On a personal level, it is a tragedy that Gove, who was Ivan Cameron's godfather is on such bad terms now with David and Sam Cameron.
I'm afraid that says a lot about the Camerons.
I disagree, I know a bit more about it than most, and I don't wish to break personal confidences.
Put it this way, in late 2015, Gove assured Cameron that whilst he would be backing Leave, he would not campaign for Leave, nor criticise the government.
He failed to adhere to his promises.
Why do you think post referendum Boris and Dave bonded over a mutual betrayal by Gove?
I also have personal testimony, from someone very involved in this, and I can say that this is not true.
We'll have to wait for Cameron's autobiography for the definitive account.
LOL HIs autobiography is unlikely to be a definitive account, more like a self-justification. Again, apply Nietzsche quote from earlier.
Treachery, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
Talking of China, which we weren't, everyone knows I am bullish on its prospects, and have been so for ten years on this site, predicting its rise to power and preeminence when others scoffed.
A five year reduction in life expectancy? People trapped in their apartments?
China will still outstrip America in sheer size, but there are the seeds of great discontent here.
It is just horrible in China. I was in Shanghai in December and only saw the sky once in five days - the rest of the time the smog was too thick. It gets into your lungs and stings your skin. When you fly out you only get above it at around 10,000 feet and then it is there spreading out across the country for hundreds of miles inland. It's often the same now in Hong Kong as a result of the factories in Shenzhen, Guangdong etc.
Those footballers going out there for all that money are going to risk serious problems. Running around in what is essentially poison for two hours at a time is dangerous.
It's absolutey awful. I was in Shanghai in the summer for two days last year and breathing was tough. The air quality is terrible. The Chinese government needs to seriously step up air quality regulation and make dirty polluters look at scrubbing technology. They also need to seriously look at clean energy, renewables, hydro and even nuclear.
On a personal level, it is a tragedy that Gove, who was Ivan Cameron's godfather is on such bad terms now with David and Sam Cameron.
I'm afraid that says a lot about the Camerons.
I disagree, I know a bit more about it than most, and I don't wish to break personal confidences.
Put it this way, in late 2015, Gove assured Cameron that whilst he would be backing Leave, he would not campaign for Leave, nor criticise the government.
He failed to adhere to his promises.
Why do you think post referendum Boris and Dave bonded over a mutual betrayal by Gove?
I also have personal testimony, from someone very involved in this, and I can say that this is not true.
We'll have to wait for Cameron's autobiography for the definitive account.
That's a bit too starry-eyed even for you, Mr Eagles. We'll have to wait for the autobiography for the definitive version of Cameron's side of the story, you mean.
Honestly, I've seen it all, now. A lawyer who actually believes his own client...
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
A description not a million miles away from Farage..
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
A description not a million miles away from Farage..
Nope it is not, but Cameron's argument was that a vote for Leave was a vote for the Little England option.
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
A description not a million miles away from Farage..
Nope it is not, but Cameron's argument was that a vote for Leave was a vote for the Little England option.
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
"the right thing to do, the British thing to do, is to fight for a Great Britain inside a European Union and don't take the Nigel Farage Little England option."- David Cameron, June 2016
People will dance on the head of a pin on here about it, but undoubtedly it was a terrible gaffe that gave the oppo a free hit in terms of mock anger
Mock anger, possibly (although it's no different from Leavers claiming Cameron is a Europhile, or worse).
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
Yeah that's what I am saying. It gave Leave the chance to say to the public "He is calling you Little Englanders".. I believe he was trying to be smart by associating someone he thought was toxic with leaving, and wasn't calling everyone "little Englanders", but it was a crap strategy that backfired
But in the quip it's England that is little, not the people. The contrast is with Great Britain.
According to wikipedia (I know)...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
A description not a million miles away from Farage..
Nope it is not, but Cameron's argument was that a vote for Leave was a vote for the Little England option.
'the Nigel Farage Little England option'
Yeah, and didn't we just agree on what description wasn't a million miles away from Farage?
On a personal level, it is a tragedy that Gove, who was Ivan Cameron's godfather is on such bad terms now with David and Sam Cameron.
I'm afraid that says a lot about the Camerons.
I disagree, I know a bit more about it than most, and I don't wish to break personal confidences.
Put it this way, in late 2015, Gove assured Cameron that whilst he would be backing Leave, he would not campaign for Leave, nor criticise the government.
He failed to adhere to his promises.
Why do you think post referendum Boris and Dave bonded over a mutual betrayal by Gove?
I also have personal testimony, from someone very involved in this, and I can say that this is not true.
We'll have to wait for Cameron's autobiography for the definitive account.
LOL HIs autobiography is unlikely to be a definitive account, more like a self-justification. Again, apply Nietzsche quote from earlier.
Treachery, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Ah! I see. Everyone who cleaves to the cult of victimhood is right. And I thought you were a Tory, not a LibDem.
Even the murder of a pretty Remain MP by a right wing loon couldn't stop the Leave train, so you're almost certainly right
I never thought that horrendous murder would make any difference at all to the vote. British voters are actually very mature and unsentimental about this kind of thing; they are quite capable of simultaneously being rightly horrified by the action of some loony thug, and realising that it is completely irrelevant to the question being asked on the ballot paper.
I think that's right. The same applies to the intermittent ISIS atrocities unless they of 9/11 dimensions - the reason the Berlin attacks have had zero impact on polling is I think that the Germans say "Terrible thing, but not typical" and move on. What does shift opinion is if the same thing arises day after day - the long series of days when the refugee crisis was in the headlimnes did shift views.
This is all a good thing per se - it should discourage extremists that if they commit a hoirible atrocity it has zero medium-term effect.
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
That doesn't necessarily mean it is the only reason he supports it, just that he thought it wouldn't have happened without it.
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
is that in the same way Brexit will kill the economy ?
Even the murder of a pretty Remain MP by a right wing loon couldn't stop the Leave train, so you're almost certainly right
I never thought that horrendous murder would make any difference at all to the vote. British voters are actually very mature and unsentimental about this kind of thing; they are quite capable of simultaneously being rightly horrified by the action of some loony thug, and realising that it is completely irrelevant to the question being asked on the ballot paper.
Maybe... the polls and betting markets seemed to think it made a difference. I had one of my biggest ever bets, backing Leave, about an hour before the attack, and the odds moved from 2.4 to 5 within a few days
I see that Alastair Meeks' point about the bitterness of the referendum winners is being fully vindicated here today.
Meanwhile, I've just noticed something in Phil Hammond's Die Welt interview which is important and hasn't got much attention:
We are going to serve the [Article 50] notice in spring. We would expect that we start with substantive negotiations with the EU before the summer. The treaty is clear that the negotiation of an exit agreement has to take account of the future relationship between the parties. To do that we have to talk about the future relationship. So we would expect that we would discuss the topics in parallel.
That flatly contradicts the EU position that the negotiations are separate. It's also entirely logical - how can you discuss exit terms if you don't have any idea what you are exiting to? - and, as he points out, is clear in Article 50:
the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union..
I can't see that aspect of the EU battleplan surviving contact with the enemy.
There was a piece in the FT a few weeks back about each side's Article 50 strategy. Their take was that both sides have an interest in a transition agreemen to avoid disruption to their own trade. Tactically however the EU could take advantage from a last minute agreement, so those companies needing planning certainty move their investments away from the UK and towards the EU doing the interim period. For the opposite reason, the UK wants a transition agreement settled as soon as possible. That being so, the EU can say, first agree the €50 million before we discuss anything else. And then set the clock ticking.
I found find it amusing that Euro fanatics think that 7% of the world's population is the be all and end all of internationalism.
Is it as amusing as Brexiteers who think that closing our borders is Internationalist?
Who is suggesting closing borders? Another Remaniac myth.
Any attempt to have anything but completely unfettered immigration is 'closing our borders and turning away from the world'. Honestly, I thought you'd have got your auto-translator working by now .
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
That doesn't necessarily mean it is the only reason he supports it, just that he thought it wouldn't have happened without it.
He cares not a jot and will do nothing but talk, even in the remote chance he wants to do anything, congress will kick it into long grass. He will have a four year tussle with the establishment and get nowhere.
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
How long do you expect until the refugee crisis is seen to be under control, and do you expect the UK to have become the 51st state by then?
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
How long do you expect until the refugee crisis is seen to be under control, and do you expect the UK to have become the 51st state by then?
It will happen as soon as it's politically convenient for him to be seen to have 'fixed' Syria, and when he wants something from Merkel. Probably later this year.
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
How long do you expect until the refugee crisis is seen to be under control, and do you expect the UK to have become the 51st state by then?
It will happen as soon as it's politically convenient for him to be seen to have 'fixed' Syria, and when he wants something from Merkel. Probably later this year.
Rubbish, and how on earth is he meant to "reverse" brexit with or without support from Merkel?
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
Of which you are one.
I backed him before his flirtation with Brexit (and his election). I'm talking about the recent converts.
I make it 6 weeks. About the minimum to sort out a campaign. Do we expect any significant changes ... will the UUP replace the DUP for example? Or the SDLP replace Sinn Fein?
I make it 6 weeks. About the minimum to sort out a campaign. Do we expect any significant changes ... will the UUP replace the DUP for example? Or the SDLP replace Sinn Fein?
nothing will change though , they could do it in a day
I make it 6 weeks. About the minimum to sort out a campaign. Do we expect any significant changes ... will the UUP replace the DUP for example? Or the SDLP replace Sinn Fein?
Telegraph article suggested balance of power would remain the same, although the Assembly has been reduced from 108 to 90 seats.
Typical inefficient useless government processes, need a couple of months to max out the expenses.
You'd have no campaigning period?
As above , what will change there, zilch , nada, zero. It is just a waste of time and effort. It does allow Martin McG to retire or at least take back seat.
Typical inefficient useless government processes, need a couple of months to max out the expenses.
You'd have no campaigning period?
As above , what will change there, zilch , nada, zero. It is just a waste of time and effort. It does allow Martin McG to retire or at least take back seat.
So what do you propose instead? At least with the Assembly they have some control over their own fate.
Typical inefficient useless government processes, need a couple of months to max out the expenses.
You'd have no campaigning period?
As above , what will change there, zilch , nada, zero. It is just a waste of time and effort. It does allow Martin McG to retire or at least take back seat.
So what do you propose instead? At least with the Assembly they have some control over their own fate.
Not proposing anything , just stating facts that it will be several generations at least before anything changes. We still have hassles in the west of Scotland with the same numpties.
Typical inefficient useless government processes, need a couple of months to max out the expenses.
You'd have no campaigning period?
As above , what will change there, zilch , nada, zero. It is just a waste of time and effort. It does allow Martin McG to retire or at least take back seat.
So what do you propose instead? At least with the Assembly they have some control over their own fate.
Not proposing anything , just stating facts that it will be several generations at least before anything changes. We still have hassles in the west of Scotland with the same numpties.
Well it has already come a long way in the last few decades.
Typical inefficient useless government processes, need a couple of months to max out the expenses.
You'd have no campaigning period?
As above , what will change there, zilch , nada, zero. It is just a waste of time and effort. It does allow Martin McG to retire or at least take back seat.
So what do you propose instead? At least with the Assembly they have some control over their own fate.
Not proposing anything , just stating facts that it will be several generations at least before anything changes. We still have hassles in the west of Scotland with the same numpties.
Well it has already come a long way in the last few decades.
You have evidence of that, apart from the bombing has stopped.
Typical inefficient useless government processes, need a couple of months to max out the expenses.
You'd have no campaigning period?
As above , what will change there, zilch , nada, zero. It is just a waste of time and effort. It does allow Martin McG to retire or at least take back seat.
So what do you propose instead? At least with the Assembly they have some control over their own fate.
Not proposing anything , just stating facts that it will be several generations at least before anything changes. We still have hassles in the west of Scotland with the same numpties.
Well it has already come a long way in the last few decades.
You have evidence of that, apart from the bombing has stopped.
Trump is already teeing up a Brexit reversal by saying that it wouldn't have happened without the refugee crisis. Once that is seen to be under control he can pull the rug out from under his British cheerleaders.
He is wrong ofcourse. But that is how Americans see Brexit they think it happened because of the refugee crisis. Whilst that was THE main reason for a few it shows how little Americans pay attention to politics outside their shores.
For instance Mattis - one of the few good Trump picks - is very pro-NATO. Somehow, I don't think Trump is going to get to shift US Foreign policy in the way he'd like to on these issues, with so many on his own side being anti-Russia.
Talking of China, which we weren't, everyone knows I am bullish on its prospects, and have been so for ten years on this site, predicting its rise to power and preeminence when others scoffed.
A five year reduction in life expectancy? People trapped in their apartments?
China will still outstrip America in sheer size, but there are the seeds of great discontent here.
It is just horrible in China. I was in Shanghai in December and only saw the sky once in five days - the rest of the time the smog was too thick. It gets into your lungs and stings your skin. When you fly out you only get above it at around 10,000 feet and then it is there spreading out across the country for hundreds of miles inland. It's often the same now in Hong Kong as a result of the factories in Shenzhen, Guangdong etc.
Those footballers going out there for all that money are going to risk serious problems. Running around in what is essentially poison for two hours at a time is dangerous.
It's absolutey awful. I was in Shanghai in the summer for two days last year and breathing was tough. The air quality is terrible. The Chinese government needs to seriously step up air quality regulation and make dirty polluters look at scrubbing technology. They also need to seriously look at clean energy, renewables, hydro and even nuclear.
Odd. I've spent quite a lot of time in the Pudong and East Nanjing Road areas and never found it a problem (other than on very still winters days, which are unusual). Beijing on the other hand has a real problem.
Surely the solution for China (and indeed, to a lesser extent us) is going to be electric vehicles. I suspect that in as little as 20 years the suggestion that anyone would ever have let a diesel engine pump out its exhaust in a place where people were breathing will seem as incredible as allowing selfish barstewards breath smoke over us as we try to eat in a restaurant does today. It will be just inconceivable.
China has a massive incentive to get on with this. Will we see the breakthrough in the east? It would not surprise me at all.
“There is a link between America’s flawed interventionist policy, especially the Iraq war, and the refugee crisis, that’s why my advice would be that we shouldn’t tell each other what we have done right or wrong, but that we look into establishing peace in that region and do everything to make sure people can find a home there again,” Gabriel said.
“There is a link between America’s flawed interventionist policy, especially the Iraq war, and the refugee crisis, that’s why my advice would be that we shouldn’t tell each other what we have done right or wrong, but that we look into establishing peace in that region and do everything to make sure people can find a home there again,” Gabriel said.
I cant help but think the German car industry will regret Gabriels statement
“There is a link between America’s flawed interventionist policy, especially the Iraq war, and the refugee crisis, that’s why my advice would be that we shouldn’t tell each other what we have done right or wrong, but that we look into establishing peace in that region and do everything to make sure people can find a home there again,” Gabriel said.
I cant help but think the German car industry will regret Gabriels statement
Diesel engines anyone ?
If you think VW were the only people with defeat devices, I have a bridge to sell you.
Comments
Leave winning was like expecting eight heads in a row when tossing a coin. Not impossible, but long odds against. Cameron contrived to screw up the referendum horrendously. The vast majority of the UK electorate is English, so calling potential Leavers 'Little Englanders' was as daft as when Clinton referred to the 'basket of deplorables'.
When you want someone to vote your way, insulting them is a special kind of stupid.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Isam, point of order: a gaffe is an accident. Cameron made a choice, and a damned silly one.
Mr. P, that was undoubtedly Cameron's desire (for a couple of weeks he kept banging on about Farage) but it was about as successful as a broadsword of blancmange.
But to be genuinely angry about that comment is completely barking mad.
He was right though, people did vote for the Nigel Farage Little England option (though many deny it, presumably out of shame and embarrassment)
if Mrs May wants to silence the opposition all she has to do is ban the word "could" after that the remainers have nothing to say
Honestly, I've seen it all, now. A lawyer who actually believes his own client...
Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish".
The OED definition:
A person who opposes an international role or policy for England (or, in practice, for Britain).
May more trusted than Corbyn
Their solution for better results?
Charge or Privatise
This is all a good thing per se - it should discourage extremists that if they commit a hoirible atrocity it has zero medium-term effect.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/01/16/imf-makes-u-turn-britains-economic-prospects-brexit-fears-prove/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/01/16/british-bosses-upbeat-business-prospects-year-almost-every-major/
He will have a four year tussle with the establishment and get nowhere.
https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/821056857116647428
http://www.dw.com/en/turkish-mps-back-constitutional-reforms-in-first-parliament-vote/a-37141529
@PolhomeEditor: Corbyn to PLP: "We will get the results we deserve in Copeland and Stoke if we campaign hard."
For instance Mattis - one of the few good Trump picks - is very pro-NATO. Somehow, I don't think Trump is going to get to shift US Foreign policy in the way he'd like to on these issues, with so many on his own side being anti-Russia.
China has a massive incentive to get on with this. Will we see the breakthrough in the east? It would not surprise me at all.
"Asked what Trump could do to make sure German customers bought more American cars, Gabriel said: “Build better cars.”"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/16/germany-hits-back-at-trump-criticism-of-refugee-policy-and-bmw-tariff-threat?CMP=fb_gu
A very valid point too on Syrian refugees:
“There is a link between America’s flawed interventionist policy, especially the Iraq war, and the refugee crisis, that’s why my advice would be that we shouldn’t tell each other what we have done right or wrong, but that we look into establishing peace in that region and do everything to make sure people can find a home there again,” Gabriel said.
Diesel engines anyone ?