For context, the last *parliament* in which more than 5 Lab MPs quit for other jobs (whether political, diplomatic, administrative, private sector or whatever), was in the 1950s. We've already had four this time and Burnham will probably make the fifth.
Quincel's First Law of Political Betting: Exciting Things happen less, and happen more slowly, than generally expected.
I'd take 6 or fewer on those odds. Burnham taking it up to 3 is a quick start given we're only in January, but remember all the hype about 10-12 UKIP defections to follow Carswell. These things peter out more often than they ramp up.
For context, the last *parliament* in which more than 5 Lab MPs quit for other jobs (whether political, diplomatic, administrative, private sector or whatever), was in the 1950s. We've already had four this time and Burnham will probably make the fifth.
Mike seems to make Burnham the third... How have you got five? Or have I misunderstood?
Quincel's First Law of Political Betting: Exciting Things happen less, and happen more slowly, than generally expected.
I'd take 6 or fewer on those odds. Burnham taking it up to 3 is a quick start given we're only in January, but remember all the hype about 10-12 UKIP defections to follow Carswell. These things peter out more often than they ramp up.
There's someone else standing for a Mayorality. Give me a second.
Will defections count? And if a Labour member defects to CON/LD/IND/Whatever and then resigns to trigger a by election, will that count as a LAB resignation or a resignation from whichever party they defected to?
Assuming Corbyn remains in post, I'd expect to see at least a couple of Blairites jump ship this year (though they might 'do a Tristan' to save face I suppose)
For context, the last *parliament* in which more than 5 Lab MPs quit for other jobs (whether political, diplomatic, administrative, private sector or whatever), was in the 1950s. We've already had four this time and Burnham will probably make the fifth.
Mike seems to make Burnham the third... How have you got five? Or have I misunderstood?
Distinction between Parliament (from 2015) and year (from 1 Jan 2017). The extra two are Sadiq Khan and Huw Irrance-Davies, both in 2016.
For context, the last *parliament* in which more than 5 Lab MPs quit for other jobs (whether political, diplomatic, administrative, private sector or whatever), was in the 1950s. We've already had four this time and Burnham will probably make the fifth.
Mike seems to make Burnham the third... How have you got five? Or have I misunderstood?
Mike is counting 2017 departures. I'm going from the GE. Includes Tooting and Ogmore.
For context, the last *parliament* in which more than 5 Lab MPs quit for other jobs (whether political, diplomatic, administrative, private sector or whatever), was in the 1950s. We've already had four this time and Burnham will probably make the fifth.
Mike seems to make Burnham the third... How have you got five? Or have I misunderstood?
Mike is counting 2017 departures. I'm going from the GE. Includes Tooting and Ogmore.
Will defections count? And if a Labour member defects to CON/LD/IND/Whatever and then resigns to trigger a by election, will that count as a LAB resignation or a resignation from whichever party they defected to?
Assuming Corbyn remains in post, I'd expect to see at least a couple of Blairites jump ship this year (though they might 'do a Tristan' to save face I suppose)
I'm not convinced Lab MPs will defect. Maybe one in the whole of rest of this parliament. The tribal thing is strong.
Quincel's First Law of Political Betting: Exciting Things happen less, and happen more slowly, than generally expected.
I'd take 6 or fewer on those odds. Burnham taking it up to 3 is a quick start given we're only in January, but remember all the hype about 10-12 UKIP defections to follow Carswell. These things peter out more often than they ramp up.
There's someone else standing for a Mayorality. Give me a second.
Steve Rotheram
Hmm, good shout. From scanning other mayoral elections in 2017 I think that's the only other Labour MP standing, though I can't find the candidates for the Sheffield election with quick Googling.
Will defections count? And if a Labour member defects to CON/LD/IND/Whatever and then resigns to trigger a by election, will that count as a LAB resignation or a resignation from whichever party they defected to?
Assuming Corbyn remains in post, I'd expect to see at least a couple of Blairites jump ship this year (though they might 'do a Tristan' to save face I suppose)
According to @SharpEAngle on Twitter: No. They have to "resign their seat and stand down" (I wonder if a Carswell-esque situation would count?).
For context, the last *parliament* in which more than 5 Lab MPs quit for other jobs (whether political, diplomatic, administrative, private sector or whatever), was in the 1950s. We've already had four this time and Burnham will probably make the fifth.
Mike seems to make Burnham the third... How have you got five? Or have I misunderstood?
Distinction between Parliament (from 2015) and year (from 1 Jan 2017). The extra two are Sadiq Khan and Huw Irrance-Davies, both in 2016.
Thanks. Okay so three for purposes of bet (assuming Burnham does resign). Odds seem well chosen to me... Not sure which way to gotobe honest
For context, the last *parliament* in which more than 5 Lab MPs quit for other jobs (whether political, diplomatic, administrative, private sector or whatever), was in the 1950s. We've already had four this time and Burnham will probably make the fifth.
Mike seems to make Burnham the third... How have you got five? Or have I misunderstood?
Mike is counting 2017 departures. I'm going from the GE. Includes Tooting and Ogmore.
The bet is 2017 only.
I know. That's why I highlighted 'parliament' in the original, to emphasise the difference.
I see Ladbrokes are taking the rare step of offering doubles on the by-elections. Seeing as many of the same dynamics affect both races (chiefly, is Corbyn really toxic in Labour seats or not so bad) I think that's rather generous. I particularly like the 5/2 on Labour holding both seats, but the 13/8 on them losing both isn't too bad for the same logic as above.
I find it extraordinary that Ladbrokes thinks Labour losing both is more likely than Labour winning both.
Then what are the odds for Labour losing one of the two ?
FPT: Mr. Surbiton, I do wonder if we're underestimating the residual strength of Labour's brand, despite Corbyn.
There's no equivalent of the SNP south of the border. Lib Dems start from too low a base, UKIP's receding and the Conservatives can't leap in the same way because they're the Government and already have a majority.
FPT: Mr. Surbiton, I do wonder if we're underestimating the residual strength of Labour's brand, despite Corbyn.
There's no equivalent of the SNP south of the border. Lib Dems start from too low a base, UKIP's receding and the Conservatives can't leap in the same way because they're the Government and already have a majority.
I agree. The poll below shows labour on 30% - almost the same as under miliband. Corbyn isn't doing well... But I think the predictions of annihilation are overdone.
2015 General Election result. Corbyn Team will take it now.
Staying in the Single Market is becoming more popular.
Have they asked this question on the single market before? MORI has asked this question, and got the opposite answer, suggesting it is becoming less popular
2015 General Election result. Corbyn Team will take it now.
Staying in the Single Market is becoming more popular.
On those figures Labour would easily retain both seats.
Only because Opinium is the only pollster to have made no adjustments since the general election which is why it gets a repeat of the 2015 result and has Labour and UKIP higher than other pollsters and the LDs and Tories lower. I grant you Labour will probably hold Stoke but most polls show Copeland is too close to call
Strikes me from the numerous vox pops and media pieces that Copeland still has the vestiges of party loyalty, especially to Labour, whilst in Stoke that loyalty has disappeared. I'm finding Stoke really hard to call...
Strikes me from the numerous vox pops and media pieces that Copeland still has the vestiges of party loyalty, especially to Labour, whilst in Stoke that loyalty has disappeared. I'm finding Stoke really hard to call...
The Tories can win Copeland if they squeeze the UKIP vote and get their vote out and a few Labour voters go LD or stay at home, Labour will hold Stoke, UKIP are too far behind
Mr. D, to be fair, I've read two interesting and informative pieces on the Cyprus talks on the BBC website (streets ahead of the emotional claptrap on the broadcast news).
Mr. Mortimer, interesting, but tricky to get representative vox pops, perhaps?
Off topic - what an extremely sensible QT last night. Owen Patterson and Jeremy Whoever it was ex-LD talking an awful lot of sense on the NHS. Tezza should make one of them Health Secretary.
Strikes me from the numerous vox pops and media pieces that Copeland still has the vestiges of party loyalty, especially to Labour, whilst in Stoke that loyalty has disappeared. I'm finding Stoke really hard to call...
The Tories can win Copeland if they squeeze the UKIP vote and get their vote out and a few Labour voters go LD or stay at home, Labour will hold Stoke, UKIP are too far behind
All very sensible sounding, but I'm struck by the impression in Shipper's Brexit book that local party apparatus is basically moribund in 'safe' seats which a) made Remain's canvassing difficult and b) made it difficult to judge how wrong their message was until too late.
Something makes me wonder whether laying Labour Inn stoke is the cannier bet...
FPT: Mr. Surbiton, I do wonder if we're underestimating the residual strength of Labour's brand, despite Corbyn.
There's no equivalent of the SNP south of the border. Lib Dems start from too low a base, UKIP's receding and the Conservatives can't leap in the same way because they're the Government and already have a majority.
I agree. The poll below shows labour on 30% - almost the same as under miliband. Corbyn isn't doing well... But I think the predictions of annihilation are overdone.
The Opinium numbers recently have tended to show Tory leads at the lower end of the range for all surveys. This might be something to do with methodology that is peculiar to them. In any event, whilst I certainly do think that the Labour brand is strong, I doubt if they're doing as well as 30%. The chasm in approval ratings between Corbyn and May, and other recent polls showing Tory leads on most policy areas, all suggest that a Labour value of 30% is just a little too generous.
Besides, a figure that high isn't necessarily what Labour will end up with in a General Election, of course. In fact, it would be unprecedented in modern times (for which, read the last half-century) for them to do so. We have already passed the point in this Parliament relative to which - when the election eventually occurred - a Labour Party in Opposition has ALWAYS polled lower. Even in the 92-97 Parliament, albeit that the fall was slight in that case.
Oppositions that are doing well - especially when faced with Governments beset by challenges - typically lead in mid-term. The Conservatives have been ahead in every single Westminster VI poll since May entered office, with a mean lead of almost 12%. This is somewhat sub-optimal for Labour.
Of course there won't be a massacre. Labour has such gargantuan majorities in most of its surviving seats that they're only really vulnerable to the kinds of swings that happened in Scotland, and there's no sign of that occurring. But it could be reduced to its lowest total of MPs since the 1930s. This would leave it as an impotent bystander in Parliament and almost certainly take more than one further electoral cycle to recover from - even if Labour proves both willing and able to make a comeback, which is far from certain to put it mildly.
Strikes me from the numerous vox pops and media pieces that Copeland still has the vestiges of party loyalty, especially to Labour, whilst in Stoke that loyalty has disappeared. I'm finding Stoke really hard to call...
The Tories can win Copeland if they squeeze the UKIP vote and get their vote out and a few Labour voters go LD or stay at home, Labour will hold Stoke, UKIP are too far behind
All very sensible sounding, but I'm struck by the impression in Shipper's Brexit book that local party apparatus is basically moribund in 'safe' seats which a) made Remain's canvassing difficult and b) made it difficult to judge how wrong their message was until too late.
Something makes me wonder whether laying Labour Inn stoke is the cannier bet...
Possibly but UKIP's campaign organisation is even worse than Labour's, unlike the Tories
Gosh Lib Dems now down to 9 -2 to win Stoke Central at William Hill.
We really should establish a principle of how to relate the price of a runner on here, and that principle should be to quote the biggest price available. Quoting the shortest price makes the site look very amateur.
Off topic - what an extremely sensible QT last night. Owen Patterson and Jeremy Whoever it was ex-LD talking an awful lot of sense on the NHS. Tezza should make one of them Health Secretary.
Off topic - what an extremely sensible QT last night. Owen Patterson and Jeremy Whoever it was ex-LD talking an awful lot of sense on the NHS. Tezza should make one of them Health Secretary.
Jeremy Browne. Excellent.
Very Orange. Classic neoliberal
Back from the dead?
Well they were both saying the unsayable about the NHS so I don't suppose Tezza will have the balls to employ or consult either. Shame, though - something needs to happen.
The NHS findings really are a kick in the nuts for Labour.
More people agree than disagree that the Red Cross was right to describe the NHS was experiencing a humanitarian crisis (47% to 36%) but on who do they think would be better at managing the NHS winter crisis
I think that a relevant question has to be how many Labour MPs could, with the best will in the world, hope to get a job paying anything like the package that they are on at the moment? Tristam Hunt was a possibility, the guy who has got the job in the nuclear industry was apparently another, how many are there?
The most likely reason for MPs standing down was a Mayoral sinecure. As far as I can see we have 2 likely candidates which gets us to 4. More than another 2? I just don't see it.
The NHS findings really are a kick in the nuts for Labour.
More people agree than disagree that the Red Cross was right to describe the NHS was experiencing a humanitarian crisis (47% to 36%) but on who do they think would be better at managing the NHS winter crisis
Theresa May/Tories - 43%
Jeremy Corbyn/Labour - 31%
So a 12% lead for the Tories on the NHS.
I know I'm a tory supporter, but how the flying f*** are they not being hammered on the NHS?
The NHS findings really are a kick in the nuts for Labour.
More people agree than disagree that the Red Cross was right to describe the NHS was experiencing a humanitarian crisis (47% to 36%) but on who do they think would be better at managing the NHS winter crisis
Theresa May/Tories - 43%
Jeremy Corbyn/Labour - 31%
So a 12% lead for the Tories on the NHS.
I know I'm a tory supporter, but how the flying f*** are they not being hammered on the NHS?
Corbyn is utter shite.
One would hope that people are beginning to realise that the largest injection of money into the NHS came under Tone & Gordo and that we are still where we are.
I appreciate that there is a huge social care dimension to the state of the NHS atm but nevertheless, perhaps people realise that spunking money up the (ward) wall isn't always the answer.
Gosh Lib Dems now down to 9 -2 to win Stoke Central at William Hill.
We really should establish a principle of how to relate the price of a runner on here, and that principle should be to quote the biggest price available. Quoting the shortest price makes the site look very amateur.
Lib Dems are 7/1 w b365 and 9.4-11 on Betfair
Is 9.4 - 11 an amateur price or a professional price?
Gosh Lib Dems now down to 9 -2 to win Stoke Central at William Hill.
We really should establish a principle of how to relate the price of a runner on here, and that principle should be to quote the biggest price available. Quoting the shortest price makes the site look very amateur.
Lib Dems are 7/1 w b365 and 9.4-11 on Betfair
Is 9.4 - 11 an amateur price or a professional price?
They are the prices available on the exchange to back & lay...quoting only one side of Betfair is another no no
The NHS findings really are a kick in the nuts for Labour.
More people agree than disagree that the Red Cross was right to describe the NHS was experiencing a humanitarian crisis (47% to 36%) but on who do they think would be better at managing the NHS winter crisis
Theresa May/Tories - 43%
Jeremy Corbyn/Labour - 31%
So a 12% lead for the Tories on the NHS.
In these sorts of surveys, everything depends on the exact question.
This question invites people to pass judgement on both the parties AND the leaders. In other recent surveys, when the leader names are omitted, Labour has been shown to retain a modest lead on health.
This demonstrates - as if we didn't know it already - that Theresa May is a significant asset to the Conservatives, Jeremy Corbyn a terrible handicap for Labour.
More generally, the survey gives both sides something to come away with, but the public do tend to have emotionally overwrought reactions to questions relating to the funding of the NHS (most of them reflexively say it should always have more cash thrown it at,) and the management of the NHS (Health Secretaries are almost invariably woefully unpopular, even if people have never really heard of them before.)
One of the results that most strikes me is the one suggesting, once again, that voters favour paying more tax if it were to be hypothecated for health spending. I don't believe that for a second. Any party which goes into an election promising tax rises to fund social goodies will pay a price.
People say they're willing to pay these extra taxes in order to make themselves sound nice and feel virtuous, but different impulses assert themselves in the privacy of the ballot box. Most voters do not support such measures - or if they do, what they really mean is that the extra tax should only be paid by people whose total income is at least £1 higher than theirs.
The NHS findings really are a kick in the nuts for Labour.
More people agree than disagree that the Red Cross was right to describe the NHS was experiencing a humanitarian crisis (47% to 36%) but on who do they think would be better at managing the NHS winter crisis
Theresa May/Tories - 43%
Jeremy Corbyn/Labour - 31%
So a 12% lead for the Tories on the NHS.
I know I'm a tory supporter, but how the flying f*** are they not being hammered on the NHS?
Corbyn is utter shite.
One would hope that people are beginning to realise that the largest injection of money into the NHS came under Tone & Gordo and that we are still where we are.
I appreciate that there is a huge social care dimension to the state of the NHS atm but nevertheless, perhaps people realise that spunking money up the (ward) wall isn't always the answer.
Despite the constant negative stories on the NHS I do believe that people are beginning to question the constant demand for billions more and even if it is forthcoming how it is spent will be of most concern.
Sky reporting this morning big support for Theresa May on withholding funds on doctors not opening 8 - 8 - 7 days a week. How many know the Government has allocated in excess of 500,000 million for this improved GP service
There will be a big clamour to increase salaries but that will not address the massive increase in demand and you can bet that if Corbyn was given cart blanche it would go on salaries.
The NHS findings really are a kick in the nuts for Labour.
More people agree than disagree that the Red Cross was right to describe the NHS was experiencing a humanitarian crisis (47% to 36%) but on who do they think would be better at managing the NHS winter crisis
Theresa May/Tories - 43%
Jeremy Corbyn/Labour - 31%
So a 12% lead for the Tories on the NHS.
I know I'm a tory supporter, but how the flying f*** are they not being hammered on the NHS?
Corbyn is utter shite.
As an opinion pollster put it to me earlier on this week (to annoy me)
'Jeremy Corbyn is so dire, even George Osborne or IDS would win a landslide against him'
If leadership ratings really are the best indicator then we're heading for a massive Tory majority at the next.
To the put it all into context (figures are Ipsos Mori)
In December 2011 Cameron had a 9% lead over Ed Miliband in the leader ratings.
In May 2015 Cameron's lead over Ed was 17% in the leader ratings.
In December 2016 May's lead over Corbyn was 47% in the leader ratings.
Comments
I'd take 6 or fewer on those odds. Burnham taking it up to 3 is a quick start given we're only in January, but remember all the hype about 10-12 UKIP defections to follow Carswell. These things peter out more often than they ramp up.
"He must be the most unpopular populist in modern British politics."
Steve Rotheram
Assuming Corbyn remains in post, I'd expect to see at least a couple of Blairites jump ship this year (though they might 'do a Tristan' to save face I suppose)
Odds seem well chosen to me... Not sure which way to gotobe honest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0zNWswcqMg
Items 6 & 7 on the BBC:
Is it OK to watch porn in public?
How to get a pension of £20,000 a year
There's no equivalent of the SNP south of the border. Lib Dems start from too low a base, UKIP's receding and the Conservatives can't leap in the same way because they're the Government and already have a majority.
https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/820311441072910337
Con 38 (nc) Lab 30 (-1) Lib Dems 7 (+1) UKIP 14 (+1)
And
If the government has to choose between staying in the single market or ending free movement, 41% would opt for the latter, and 32% the former.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/labour-struggling-build-voter-support-poll-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Staying in the Single Market is becoming more popular.
Corbyn isn't doing well... But I think the predictions of annihilation are overdone.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/13/william-hill-tells-staff-to-shine-torches-through-rival-bookies-windows-racing-partnership
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/07/civil-servants-told-make-patriotic-case-brexit/
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/constitution/european-integration/news/80051/public-lean-towards-single-market-over-reduced
Mr. Mortimer, interesting, but tricky to get representative vox pops, perhaps?
Rocket time.
Hopefully more succesful thant he last try !
*Crosses fingers*
Something makes me wonder whether laying Labour Inn stoke is the cannier bet...
Fingers crossed indeed.
They didn't even *try* for a launch with the last one; it explodedcaught fire during a test.
I think they're trying to launch ten satellites at once, so if they have a problem I reckon it'll be in the second-stage orbital part of the mission.
Besides, a figure that high isn't necessarily what Labour will end up with in a General Election, of course. In fact, it would be unprecedented in modern times (for which, read the last half-century) for them to do so. We have already passed the point in this Parliament relative to which - when the election eventually occurred - a Labour Party in Opposition has ALWAYS polled lower. Even in the 92-97 Parliament, albeit that the fall was slight in that case.
Oppositions that are doing well - especially when faced with Governments beset by challenges - typically lead in mid-term. The Conservatives have been ahead in every single Westminster VI poll since May entered office, with a mean lead of almost 12%. This is somewhat sub-optimal for Labour.
Of course there won't be a massacre. Labour has such gargantuan majorities in most of its surviving seats that they're only really vulnerable to the kinds of swings that happened in Scotland, and there's no sign of that occurring. But it could be reduced to its lowest total of MPs since the 1930s. This would leave it as an impotent bystander in Parliament and almost certainly take more than one further electoral cycle to recover from - even if Labour proves both willing and able to make a comeback, which is far from certain to put it mildly.
Now about tomorrow when England play India in the cricket and I go see Liverpool take on Manchester United at Old Trafford.
[Afraid I don't know the German verb 'to claim'].
Although wouldn't it be 'behaupte'?
Blinking past participles
Lib Dems are 7/1 w b365 and 9.4-11 on Betfair
Anyway, I must be off.
Very Orange. Classic neoliberal
Back from the dead?
New Comres poll finds 57% of the public support Jeremy Corbyn's wage cap policy with even Tory voters backing it by 49% to 41%.
Can someone let Justin know, once again this ComRes poll DOES NOT include any VI before he gets overexcited again.,
More people agree than disagree that the Red Cross was right to describe the NHS was experiencing a humanitarian crisis (47% to 36%) but on who do they think would be better at managing the NHS winter crisis
Theresa May/Tories - 43%
Jeremy Corbyn/Labour - 31%
So a 12% lead for the Tories on the NHS.
(Except on Brexit).
Do you think its value? People on here are saying they expect UKIP and Cons to be close or even Cons in front.... 5/2 plays 20/1!
That'd make the match bet 2/13 UKIP 13/2 Cons
Tristam Hunt was a possibility, the guy who has got the job in the nuclear industry was apparently another, how many are there?
The most likely reason for MPs standing down was a Mayoral sinecure. As far as I can see we have 2 likely candidates which gets us to 4. More than another 2? I just don't see it.
Corbyn is utter shite.
I appreciate that there is a huge social care dimension to the state of the NHS atm but nevertheless, perhaps people realise that spunking money up the (ward) wall isn't always the answer.
Good luck with that.
This question invites people to pass judgement on both the parties AND the leaders. In other recent surveys, when the leader names are omitted, Labour has been shown to retain a modest lead on health.
This demonstrates - as if we didn't know it already - that Theresa May is a significant asset to the Conservatives, Jeremy Corbyn a terrible handicap for Labour.
More generally, the survey gives both sides something to come away with, but the public do tend to have emotionally overwrought reactions to questions relating to the funding of the NHS (most of them reflexively say it should always have more cash thrown it at,) and the management of the NHS (Health Secretaries are almost invariably woefully unpopular, even if people have never really heard of them before.)
One of the results that most strikes me is the one suggesting, once again, that voters favour paying more tax if it were to be hypothecated for health spending. I don't believe that for a second. Any party which goes into an election promising tax rises to fund social goodies will pay a price.
People say they're willing to pay these extra taxes in order to make themselves sound nice and feel virtuous, but different impulses assert themselves in the privacy of the ballot box. Most voters do not support such measures - or if they do, what they really mean is that the extra tax should only be paid by people whose total income is at least £1 higher than theirs.
Terribly cynical of me, I know.
Sky reporting this morning big support for Theresa May on withholding funds on doctors not opening 8 - 8 - 7 days a week. How many know the Government has allocated in excess of 500,000 million for this improved GP service
There will be a big clamour to increase salaries but that will not address the massive increase in demand and you can bet that if Corbyn was given cart blanche it would go on salaries.
'Jeremy Corbyn is so dire, even George Osborne or IDS would win a landslide against him'
If leadership ratings really are the best indicator then we're heading for a massive Tory majority at the next.
To the put it all into context (figures are Ipsos Mori)
In December 2011 Cameron had a 9% lead over Ed Miliband in the leader ratings.
In May 2015 Cameron's lead over Ed was 17% in the leader ratings.
In December 2016 May's lead over Corbyn was 47% in the leader ratings.