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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Professor Anthony King, one of Britain’s leading psephologists

SystemSystem Posts: 12,264
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Professor Anthony King, one of Britain’s leading psephologists, dies at the age of 82

Prof Anthony King being awarded, alongside Prof Ivor Crewe, the 2014 Practical Politics Book of the Year award

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,563
    edited January 2017
    Primo?
    Sad news about Prof King, political and psephological science will be worse off after today. RIP and condolences to his family.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    The avuncular Anthony King. I always thought he'd make a good voice over
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    Who will now tell us that we are in for a te-rrrr-ible night for the Conservatives?

    RIP.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    edited January 2017
    PeterC said:

    Who will now tell us that we are in for a te-rrrr-ible night for the Conservatives?

    RIP.

    :+1:
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    A timely reminder that the Prince of Wales said that the Ivor Crewe building at the University of Essex looks like a dustbin. Living in the area and having been there for a lecture or two and a recording of Any Questions, I can attest to the correct nature of his remark.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7248749.stm
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,376
    I once heard Professor King speak. Very perceptive guy with a reservoir of knowledge and experience.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/engine/match/1075473.html

    Bit ominous, England smashed by the Indian reserves.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Iain
    By-election to take place in Oldham next month as local MP steps down https://t.co/ncRhPhllko
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,376
    Essexit said:

    A timely reminder that the Prince of Wales said that the Ivor Crewe building at the University of Essex looks like a dustbin. Living in the area and having been there for a lecture or two and a recording of Any Questions, I can attest to the correct nature of his remark.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7248749.stm

    Living in Essex surely that's symptomatic of living in a dustbin.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,563
    PlatoSaid said:

    Iain
    By-election to take place in Oldham next month as local MP steps down https://t.co/ncRhPhllko

    BTW that's a council by-election, the MP has decided to be a full time MP.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    edited January 2017
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Essexit said:

    A timely reminder that the Prince of Wales said that the Ivor Crewe building at the University of Essex looks like a dustbin. Living in the area and having been there for a lecture or two and a recording of Any Questions, I can attest to the correct nature of his remark.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7248749.stm

    Living in Essex surely that's symptomatic of living in a dustbin.
    It's not all like Tilbury, some parts are quite nice.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,376
    Sir David Butler is still as sharp as ever and in his 90s, clearly psephology increases your life span.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,991
    I agree with everything Mike's written (other than that he was 82).

    I have a copy of the 1964 election study (bought for an alternative history I never got round to writing, in which Douglas-Home wins), and it's amazingly detailed and a wonderful insight.

    Would that today's TV experts were able to know their subjects in as much depth and convey their thoughts and analyses to the public with such impartial accessibility.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Essexit said:

    A timely reminder that the Prince of Wales said that the Ivor Crewe building at the University of Essex looks like a dustbin. Living in the area and having been there for a lecture or two and a recording of Any Questions, I can attest to the correct nature of his remark.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7248749.stm

    Living in Essex surely that's symptomatic of living in a dustbin.
    It's not all Tilbury, some parts are quite nice.
    Even some parts of Tilbury are quite nice! (the villages anyway - though it's easy to miss them and end up in Chadwell St Mary by mistake, and Chadwell St Mary is a dump).
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Essexit said:

    A timely reminder that the Prince of Wales said that the Ivor Crewe building at the University of Essex looks like a dustbin. Living in the area and having been there for a lecture or two and a recording of Any Questions, I can attest to the correct nature of his remark.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7248749.stm

    Living in Essex surely that's symptomatic of living in a dustbin.
    Zing!
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited January 2017
    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Files on 23 people and organisations involved in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster have been passed to the Crown Prosecution Service.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-38582111

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    I feel like there should be a by election to replace him.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    SeanT said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.
    Love the braces though.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Anthony King's enthusiasm for the study of electoral politics permeated through all aspects of his journalism, academic writings and broadcasting.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    On a minor note, Andy Burnham is busy upsetting Councils in and around Manchester.

    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/andy-burnham-green-belt-development-12441497
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    SeanT said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.
    I have to say, it's nice to have my stereotypes challenged from time to time. I'd naturally assumed all these lunatic snowflake types at universities were in the arts, and was surprised to learn that this guy's a physicist.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RIP always worth listening to, will be much missed.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    SeanT said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.
    He's beyond complacent smug too - I flinched.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Essexit said:

    SeanT said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.
    I have to say, it's nice to have my stereotypes challenged from time to time. I'd naturally assumed all these lunatic snowflake types at universities were in the arts, and was surprised to learn that this guy's a physicist.
    I know a lot of people (mostly academics and eminent lawyers) who are brilliant in their field but shouldn't be let out of the house alone, and this twerp reminds me of them.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT - curse of the new thread.
    david_herdson said:

    I've always been concerned by this. Polls have a natural margin of error (and 1 in 20 should even if perfect be outside the margin of error).

    If a polling company does 20 polls, 19 are accurate but the 20th is the final one and is outside margin of error (or even in margin of error but at the extreme end of it) then have they "failed"?

    It is a risk, although if their final poll produces a spike one way, counter to, or well beyond, the average then they can reasonably say that they hit an unlucky sample. But if every (or nearly every) pollster is out then that will be down to a systemic methodological flaw.

    Of course. I think the BPC should ban both methodology changes and selectively-deciding whether to publish* polls or not during the election campaign for instance.

    Decide on your format, decide on whether you're going to publish the poll or not, get your sample apply your pre-determined methodology then publish it. No pratting around "fixing" the result. Between elections not during them should be the time to change methodology.

    * Of course for privately-commissioned polls it wouldn't be their decision.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Number Cruncher
    Lib Dems select Rebecca Hanson for the #CopelandByElection
    https://t.co/SCrMl23rt6
  • madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    Essexit said:

    SeanT said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.
    I have to say, it's nice to have my stereotypes challenged from time to time. I'd naturally assumed all these lunatic snowflake types at universities were in the arts, and was surprised to learn that this guy's a physicist.
    Physicists usually rely on physical evidence to prove theories.. He seems a complete #### (rude word self censored) after seeing his car crash interview.. (May is also a racist apparently)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Philip_Thompson said:

    FPT - curse of the new thread.

    david_herdson said:

    I've always been concerned by this. Polls have a natural margin of error (and 1 in 20 should even if perfect be outside the margin of error).

    If a polling company does 20 polls, 19 are accurate but the 20th is the final one and is outside margin of error (or even in margin of error but at the extreme end of it) then have they "failed"?

    It is a risk, although if their final poll produces a spike one way, counter to, or well beyond, the average then they can reasonably say that they hit an unlucky sample. But if every (or nearly every) pollster is out then that will be down to a systemic methodological flaw.
    Of course. I think the BPC should ban both methodology changes and selectively-deciding whether to publish* polls or not during the election campaign for instance.

    Decide on your format, decide on whether you're going to publish the poll or not, get your sample apply your pre-determined methodology then publish it. No pratting around "fixing" the result. Between elections not during them should be the time to change methodology.

    * Of course for privately-commissioned polls it wouldn't be their decision.

    Good old Anthony Cooper :)
  • glwglw Posts: 10,010
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    FPT:
    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,379
    The view from the Alps.

    https://twitter.com/russian_market/status/819511086533771266
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Golly

    https://order-order.com/2017/01/12/watch-max-mosley-punches-policeman/
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    is there a link to the Neil vivisection?
    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,010
    madasafish said:

    Physicists usually rely on physical evidence to prove theories..

    "We didn't actually observe the effect, but we know someone who did." Really he's a tremendously gigantic berk.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    SquareRoot said:

    is there a link to the Neil vivisection?

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ILL1XRLVuA
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Essexit said:

    A timely reminder that the Prince of Wales said that the Ivor Crewe building at the University of Essex looks like a dustbin. Living in the area and having been there for a lecture or two and a recording of Any Questions, I can attest to the correct nature of his remark.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7248749.stm

    Living in Essex surely that's symptomatic of living in a dustbin.
    Oh, you!!

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
    In his view, merely voting to Leave itself is evidence of a hate crime.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    If you tell them that then I expect the invitation would soon be rescinded.

    Or you could be charitable. Didn't someone quite famous say something about turning cheeks and forgiveness?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,010
    Casino_Royale said:

    In his view, merely voting to Leave itself is evidence of a hate crime.

    Yes and it seems to be the very worst crime of all judging from the reaction of some people.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,379
    These bloody luvvies sticking their oar in, she's not even American ffs.
    NO ON CARES WHAT YOU THINK LUV!
    ™ The Right

    https://twitter.com/thehill/status/819553794329608192
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    SquareRoot said:

    is there a link to the Neil vivisection?

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
    What's more shocking is that, according to the youtube description, the police actually recorded it as hate speech in their statistics!! What?!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    and RIP King.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    RobD said:

    SquareRoot said:

    is there a link to the Neil vivisection?

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
    What's more shocking is that, according to the youtube description, the police actually recorded it as hate speech in their statistics!! What?!
    It's a hate incident, apparently that is just recognition of the complaint not any actual finding.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    RobD said:

    SquareRoot said:

    is there a link to the Neil vivisection?

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
    What's more shocking is that, according to the youtube description, the police actually recorded it as hate speech in their statistics!! What?!
    It's a hate incident, apparently that is just recognition of the complaint not any actual finding.
    But it wasn't, surely? It's more of a moron incident.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    RobD said:

    SquareRoot said:

    is there a link to the Neil vivisection?

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
    What's more shocking is that, according to the youtube description, the police actually recorded it as hate speech in their statistics!! What?!
    They didnt have any choice. That's the law.
    Is this another Hattie Harman imposition perchance ? ;)
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Theuniondivvie said:

    These bloody luvvies sticking their oar in, she's not even American ffs.
    NO ON CARES WHAT YOU THINK LUV!
    ™ The Right

    htps://twitter.com/thehill/status/819553794329608192

    She looks about 80 years old and as mad as a meataxe. But I am sure she means to be reassuring.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    *Grabs popcorn*
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Mortimer said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    If you tell them that then I expect the invitation would soon be rescinded.

    Or you could be charitable. Didn't someone quite famous say something about turning cheeks and forgiveness?
    As it happens I shall not be attending anyway- I live in Norfolk and the event will be in Pembrokeshire making it too far to travel. Forgiveness and 'turning the other cheek' hardly arise because the couple have never shown the vaguest hint of being religious. It strikes me that the event has probably been arranged for a bit of social recognition rather than anything else. Personally , I have never believed in baptism of infants - christening should be a decision taken by the individual upon reaching the appropriate age.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    RobD said:

    SquareRoot said:

    is there a link to the Neil vivisection?

    glw said:

    SeanT said:

    OMG. What a fool. What a stupid, red-trousered, lefty europhile fool. He admits it's all about Brexit - and then says he hasn't actually watched the speech??

    Remainers are just jackasses.

    Fool is too kind, he's an utter berk. Can he be charged with wasting police time?
    What's more shocking is that, according to the youtube description, the police actually recorded it as hate speech in their statistics!! What?!
    It's a hate incident, apparently that is just recognition of the complaint not any actual finding.
    Is there a parallel for any other kind of crime? For instance if I falsely report a burglary, do the police record it as a 'theft incident'?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    Aptitude for Physics no help in political debate. Who knew? Extraordinary that he also clearly lacks the self-awareness to know how limited he is.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Can we get Andrew Neil to a future PB drinks?

    It would be EPIC. All of our assumptions and predispositions could be challenged.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,734
    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    I don't think there's anyone whose standard of personal morality doesn't fall short of the teachings of Jesus Christ. It's still a good thing that they want their children to be baptised.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,010
    Essexit said:

    Is there a parallel for any other kind of crime? For instance if I falsely report a burglary, do the police record it as a 'theft incident'?

    A homicide incident would be the daftest.

    "But's he alive!"
    "That doesn't matter."
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    justin124 said:

    Mortimer said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    If you tell them that then I expect the invitation would soon be rescinded.

    Or you could be charitable. Didn't someone quite famous say something about turning cheeks and forgiveness?
    As it happens I shall not be attending anyway- I live in Norfolk and the event will be in Pembrokeshire making it too far to travel. Forgiveness and 'turning the other cheek' hardly arise because the couple have never shown the vaguest hint of being religious. It strikes me that the event has probably been arranged for a bit of social recognition rather than anything else. Personally , I have never believed in baptism of infants - christening should be a decision taken by the individual upon reaching the appropriate age.
    Better hope St Augustine was wrong about original sin then.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387
    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    I don't think there's anyone whose standard of personal morality doesn't fall short of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
    The Buddha.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Mortimer said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    If you tell them that then I expect the invitation would soon be rescinded.

    Or you could be charitable. Didn't someone quite famous say something about turning cheeks and forgiveness?
    Nah - that wuz fake news in the bible! :)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Mortimer said:

    Can we get Andrew Neil to a future PB drinks?

    It would be EPIC. All of our assumptions and predispositions could be challenged.

    iirc some posters were a bit sniffy about Andrew Neil's home when he was filmed there. He might bear a grudge.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    justin124 said:

    Mortimer said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    If you tell them that then I expect the invitation would soon be rescinded.

    Or you could be charitable. Didn't someone quite famous say something about turning cheeks and forgiveness?
    As it happens I shall not be attending anyway- I live in Norfolk and the event will be in Pembrokeshire making it too far to travel. Forgiveness and 'turning the other cheek' hardly arise because the couple have never shown the vaguest hint of being religious. It strikes me that the event has probably been arranged for a bit of social recognition rather than anything else. Personally , I have never believed in baptism of infants - christening should be a decision taken by the individual upon reaching the appropriate age.
    you're a pompous prat and no credit to your religion
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,886
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    They're not messing around by the look of it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQwDkeFwL1g
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    felix said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    Aptitude for Physics no help in political debate. Who knew? Extraordinary that he also clearly lacks the self-awareness to know how limited he is.
    Prof Joshua Silver strikes me as the kind of chap who likes to pontificate on politics, but rarely gets called out on his dafter opinions. This time however, he’s bitten off more than he can chew by reporting this as a hate crime and made a ruddy great fool of himself in the process.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,944
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    glw said:

    Essexit said:

    Is there a parallel for any other kind of crime? For instance if I falsely report a burglary, do the police record it as a 'theft incident'?

    A homicide incident would be the daftest.

    "But's he alive!"
    "That doesn't matter."
    :lol:
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    felix said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    Aptitude for Physics no help in political debate. Who knew? Extraordinary that he also clearly lacks the self-awareness to know how limited he is.
    it was a politically based complaint imho.. which is even worse. Neil should have asked him about his political allegiance.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    logical_song said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
    I would have thought the range on those things was such that it didn't really matter if they were fired from Kaliningrad or from western Russia.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,010
    SimonStClare said:

    Prof Joshua Silver strikes me as the kind of chap who likes to pontificate on politics, but rarely gets called out on his dafter opinions. This time however, he’s bitten off more than he can chew by reporting this as a hate crime and made a ruddy great fool of himself in the process.

    He's deserves it, thank God that Andrew Neil exists.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    felix said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    Aptitude for Physics no help in political debate. Who knew? Extraordinary that he also clearly lacks the self-awareness to know how limited he is.
    Mrs may next on his hit list -lol
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited January 2017
    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    I don't think there's anyone whose standard of personal morality doesn't fall short of the teachings of Jesus Christ. It's still a good thing that they want their children to be baptised.
    Most people still do not have their children out of wedlock - and indeed there are still quite a few who abstain from pre-marital sex. In practice only the more devout of people tend to bother with a Christening service at all. This couple have fallen well below accepted Christian standards of morality - never attend church - yet suddenly decide to arrange this ceremony. Moreover my niece has never been Christened herself!
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
    I would have thought the range on those things was such that it didn't really matter if they were fired from Kaliningrad or from western Russia.

    The closer they are, the less warning you get.

    A minor incident in Cuba was once caused by that concern.

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ReggieCide said:

    justin124 said:

    Mortimer said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    If you tell them that then I expect the invitation would soon be rescinded.

    Or you could be charitable. Didn't someone quite famous say something about turning cheeks and forgiveness?
    As it happens I shall not be attending anyway- I live in Norfolk and the event will be in Pembrokeshire making it too far to travel. Forgiveness and 'turning the other cheek' hardly arise because the couple have never shown the vaguest hint of being religious. It strikes me that the event has probably been arranged for a bit of social recognition rather than anything else. Personally , I have never believed in baptism of infants - christening should be a decision taken by the individual upon reaching the appropriate age.
    you're a pompous prat and no credit to your religion
    Perhaps you need to consult the mirror.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,991
    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    Society has yet to develop a recognised civil ceremony equivalent to a Christening yet people still want to have a social occasion to celebrate the birth and the new child (and why not? the Church has been vey adept over the centuries in marrying ceremony with religion precisely because people *want* ceremony).

    But from your comment, it doesn't sound as if you know much of Christian principles, the core of which is forgiveness.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,379
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    Trump's first 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' moment hurtling towards him at quite a rate.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    MarkHopkins said:

    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
    I would have thought the range on those things was such that it didn't really matter if they were fired from Kaliningrad or from western Russia.

    The closer they are, the less warning you get.

    A minor incident in Cuba was once caused by that concern.

    Can the flight time ever be so short that retaliation is not possible? I don't think so, and I don't see any other reason than avoiding retaliation for a swift first strike.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The test for a hate incident reminds me of the old football joke:

    "A player thinks that he has been badly treated by the ref, so he asks the official if it was allowed to call him a bastard.
    "No," said the ref.
    "Well, what if I just thought you were one," came the reply.
    "That's all right," said the ref.
    "Well then, I think you're a bastard," said the player."
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    Christening are about the child, not the parents
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,352
    edited January 2017
    It seems to me that Professor Joshua Silver believed the media rumour that Amber Rudd was talking about requiring firms to compile lists of foreigners working for them as happens in the USA re: working visas etc. IMO that would be entirely acceptable.

    I as a Landlord already have to check that people have a "Right to Rent", and check ids of foreigners, and store the information. So presumably the Prof thinks that the law compels me to be a hate criminal on pain of committing a criminal offence if I do not comply with the Law's directive.

    Personally I think the Prof deserves disciplinary action, and boy does Oxford Uni have a lot of highly intelligent stupid people therein.

    The same misunderstanding led the MP Mhairi Black to write an hysterical column comparing Tories to Nazis and Britain to Germany in the 1930s, here:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/mhairi-black-tory-policies-reminiscent-of-nazi-germany-1-4252825

    One problem is that we have ludicrously broad unverified recording criteria for Hate Incidents and Hate Crime. I think all it requires is for a criminal offence is somebody in a category to say that they are offended by somebody else's opinion.

    Here in Nuttinghamshire this is the definition:

    "Hate crime is any incident, which may or may not constitute a criminal offence, which is perceived by you or any other person, as being motivated by prejudice or hate."
    http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/hatecrime

    That seems to cover, for example, a person earwigging on the bus suddenly becoming a victim of hate crime if they overhear something they don't like.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    Christening are about the child, not the parents
    Nowadays it does feel like things are the other way around though!
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    AlastairMeeks said:

    The test for a hate incident reminds me of the old football joke:

    "A player thinks that he has been badly treated by the ref, so he asks the official if it was allowed to call him a bastard.
    "No," said the ref.
    "Well, what if I just thought you were one," came the reply.
    "That's all right," said the ref.
    "Well then, I think you're a bastard," said the player."


    Is this a joke incident?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    MattW said:

    It seems to me that Professor Joshua Silver believed the media rumour that Amber Rudd was talking about requiring firms to compile lists of foreigners working for them as happens in the USA re: working visas etc. IMO that would be entirely acceptable.

    I as a Landlord already have to check that people have a "Right to Rent", and check ids of foreigners, and store the information. So presumably the Prof thinks that the law compels me to be a hate criminal on pain of committing a criminal offence if I do not comply with the Law's directive.

    Personally I think the Prof deserves disciplinary action, and boy does Oxford Uni have a lot of highly intelligent stupid people therein.

    The same misunderstanding led the MP Mhairi Black to write an hysterical column comparing Tories to Nazis and Britain to Germany in the 1930s, here:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/mhairi-black-tory-policies-reminiscent-of-nazi-germany-1-4252825

    One problem is that we have ludicrously broad unverified recording criteria for Hate Incidents and Hate Crime. I think all it requires is for a criminal offence is somebody in a category to say that they are offended by somebody else's opinion.

    Here in Nuttinghamshire this is the definition:

    "Hate crime is any incident, which may or may not constitute a criminal offence, which is perceived by you or any other person, as being motivated by prejudice or hate."
    http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/hatecrime

    That seems to cover, for example, a person earwigging on the bus suddenly becoming a victim of hate crime if they overhear something they don't like.

    Have Nottinghamshire Police redefined the meaning of the word "crime"? Removing the word 'hate'....

    "crime is any incident, which may or may not constitute a criminal offence"

    Righty-ho.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
    I would have thought the range on those things was such that it didn't really matter if they were fired from Kaliningrad or from western Russia.
    Nah, Iskander has a range of about 300 miles, from Western Russia isn't not going to put any pressure on Poland, Belarus is in the way. Presumably the Bastions are there to keep nosey American carriers at arms length although they have been used against ground targets in Syria.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    AlsoIndigo said:

    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
    I would have thought the range on those things was such that it didn't really matter if they were fired from Kaliningrad or from western Russia.
    Nah, Iskander has a range of about 300 miles, from Western Russia isn't not going to put any pressure on Poland, Belarus is in the way. Presumably the Bastions are there to keep nosey American carriers at arms length although they have been used against ground targets in Syria.
    Ah okay, those do have very short range.
  • MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    edited January 2017
    just as I would not claim that all Leavers share Farage's, Gove's, Hoey's or Nuttall's opinions and points of view, please do not try to make out that all Remainers are idiots just because of one interview with one person.


    As for Plato's link to a news item about a by-election in Oldham, have now recovered enough from the minor heart attack she gave me to be able to point out that it appears to be a council by-election not a parliamentary one.
  • wasdwasd Posts: 276
    RobD said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
    I would have thought the range on those things was such that it didn't really matter if they were fired from Kaliningrad or from western Russia.

    The closer they are, the less warning you get.

    A minor incident in Cuba was once caused by that concern.

    Can the flight time ever be so short that retaliation is not possible? I don't think so, and I don't see any other reason than avoiding retaliation for a swift first strike.
    How long after Fylingdales disappeared would it take for US high command decided that an attack took it out rather than a power failure? A couple of minutes might be the difference between a President being able to retaliate using static US based assets (Minute Man et al) and those assets being eliminated in a first wave.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,991
    glw said:

    Essexit said:

    Is there a parallel for any other kind of crime? For instance if I falsely report a burglary, do the police record it as a 'theft incident'?

    A homicide incident would be the daftest.

    "But's he alive!"
    "That doesn't matter."
    That is pure Python.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    MattW said:

    It seems to me that Professor Joshua Silver believed the media rumour that Amber Rudd was talking about requiring firms to compile lists of foreigners working for them as happens in the USA re: working visas etc. IMO that would be entirely acceptable.

    I as a Landlord already have to check that people have a "Right to Rent", and check ids of foreigners, and store the information. So presumably the Prof thinks that the law compels me to be a hate criminal on pain of committing a criminal offence if I do not comply with the Law's directive.

    Personally I think the Prof deserves disciplinary action, and boy does Oxford Uni have a lot of highly intelligent stupid people therein.

    The same misunderstanding led the MP Mhairi Black to write an hysterical column comparing Tories to Nazis and Britain to Germany in the 1930s, here:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/mhairi-black-tory-policies-reminiscent-of-nazi-germany-1-4252825

    One problem is that we have ludicrously broad unverified recording criteria for Hate Incidents and Hate Crime. I think all it requires is for a criminal offence is somebody in a category to say that they are offended by somebody else's opinion.

    Here in Nuttinghamshire this is the definition:

    "Hate crime is any incident, which may or may not constitute a criminal offence, which is perceived by you or any other person, as being motivated by prejudice or hate."
    http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/hatecrime

    That seems to cover, for example, a person earwigging on the bus suddenly becoming a victim of hate crime if they overhear something they don't like.

    I suspect his views are very common within Oxford University academic circles, and his colleagues may even have encouraged his actions.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    I don't think there's anyone whose standard of personal morality doesn't fall short of the teachings of Jesus Christ. It's still a good thing that they want their children to be baptised.
    Most people still do not have their children out of wedlock - and indeed there are still quite a few who abstain from pre-marital sex. In practice only the more devout of people tend to bother with a Christening service at all. This couple have fallen well below accepted Christian standards of morality - never attend church - yet suddenly decide to arrange this ceremony. Moreover my niece has never been Christened herself!
    I know they will appreciate it if you write to them pointing all this out.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    david_herdson said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    Society has yet to develop a recognised civil ceremony equivalent to a Christening yet people still want to have a social occasion to celebrate the birth and the new child (and why not? the Church has been vey adept over the centuries in marrying ceremony with religion precisely because people *want* ceremony).

    But from your comment, it doesn't sound as if you know much of Christian principles, the core of which is forgiveness.
    I have often been accused of being more right wing than most Tories when it comes to matters of personal morality - and I have to accept that I feel a certain affinity with the views of Ann Widdecombe and even Mary Whitehouse on this issue.I hate the personal hypocrisy of it all! I am utterly appalled when the Church agrees to marry couples who have been cohabiting - quite often with a kid or two in tow. Were I a church minister or vicar I would decline to marry them. At the end of the day the Church either has beliefs and principles or it does not. Putting the aside in this way totally undermines its credibility.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,148
    wasd said:

    RobD said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
    I would have thought the range on those things was such that it didn't really matter if they were fired from Kaliningrad or from western Russia.

    The closer they are, the less warning you get.

    A minor incident in Cuba was once caused by that concern.

    Can the flight time ever be so short that retaliation is not possible? I don't think so, and I don't see any other reason than avoiding retaliation for a swift first strike.
    How long after Fylingdales disappeared would it take for US high command decided that an attack took it out rather than a power failure? A couple of minutes might be the difference between a President being able to retaliate using static US based assets (Minute Man et al) and those assets being eliminated in a first wave.
    But the difference in flight time to England from Kaliningrad and from western Russia is probably not all that much. In any case, I'm imagining they would be relying on more than direct communication to assess the situation. Satellites, for example.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,991
    RobD said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    RobD said:

    logical_song said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    "Last October, Russia sent nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its exclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, followed a month later by Bastion anti-ship missile launchers."
    I would have thought the range on those things was such that it didn't really matter if they were fired from Kaliningrad or from western Russia.

    The closer they are, the less warning you get.

    A minor incident in Cuba was once caused by that concern.

    Can the flight time ever be so short that retaliation is not possible? I don't think so, and I don't see any other reason than avoiding retaliation for a swift first strike.
    If you were intent of a first strike, you'd be much better delivering them in Ford Transits.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    TOPPING said:

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    FPT:

    justin124 said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    It's not a big surprise views are changing given the experience of life people have. Thirty years ago divorce was kept very quiet, as was single parenting. My son is in a class of 28 only two children of which are living with both birth parents, and this is in the rural shires.

    The stigma of divorce has really gone by the 60s. Havig kids out of wedlock is a different matter - and remains far from being universally accepted.
    Oddly here in the Philippines, a place where when I was courting my wife 20-odd years ago, young ladies were still chaperoned by aunties, almost the opposite is now true. This is the only country in the world where divorce is still illegal, a view which is widely supported, and yet having children out of wedlock now hardly raises an eyebrow even in the most rural of communities.

    That is very interesting and obviously reflects a different culture.
    As it happens , I have been taken aback in just the last hour to receive an invitation from my niece and her husband to the double Christening of their two children - boys of 3 years and 6 months old.. The couple are not churchgoers and their first child was born out of wedlock more than a year before their marriage. To be honest , I find it highly hypocritical that they wish to go down this road when their previous conduct reveals how far their standards of personal morality fall short of Christian principles.
    I don't think there's anyone whose standard of personal morality doesn't fall short of the teachings of Jesus Christ. It's still a good thing that they want their children to be baptised.
    Most people still do not have their children out of wedlock - and indeed there are still quite a few who abstain from pre-marital sex. In practice only the more devout of people tend to bother with a Christening service at all. This couple have fallen well below accepted Christian standards of morality - never attend church - yet suddenly decide to arrange this ceremony. Moreover my niece has never been Christened herself!
    I know they will appreciate it if you write to them pointing all this out.
    I will not be attending as it happens - but my niece's parents are perfectly aware of my views. I make no effort to hide them.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    I think he will almost certainly do something.

    The US military will try and convince him to just reduce the numbers, reduce the deployment period, or even just send them to Germany instead.

    But, Trump may go further.
  • SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 238
    RIP Anthony King. The undisputed master of coming up with the angle first, then trying to make the statistics fit...
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,556
    Casino_Royale said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    I think he will almost certainly do something.

    The US military will try and convince him to just reduce the numbers, reduce the deployment period, or even just send them to Germany instead.

    But, Trump may go further.
    So, time to buy a generator and start stocking the bunker?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    SquareRoot said:

    felix said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    Aptitude for Physics no help in political debate. Who knew? Extraordinary that he also clearly lacks the self-awareness to know how limited he is.
    it was a politically based complaint imho.. which is even worse. Neil should have asked him about his political allegiance.
    Didn't need asking did it?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,944
    Casino_Royale said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Putin wasting no time in calling in favours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

    OK I am now officially frightened. 8 days till it is up to Donald Trump to decide whether those troops stay in Poland.

    Up to Donald Trump.
    I think he will almost certainly do something.

    The US military will try and convince him to just reduce the numbers, reduce the deployment period, or even just send them to Germany instead.

    But, Trump may go further.
    So, Trump does what Putin wants and the Baltic states get really worried?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,991
    MattW said:

    It seems to me that Professor Joshua Silver believed the media rumour that Amber Rudd was talking about requiring firms to compile lists of foreigners working for them as happens in the USA re: working visas etc. IMO that would be entirely acceptable.

    I as a Landlord already have to check that people have a "Right to Rent", and check ids of foreigners, and store the information. So presumably the Prof thinks that the law compels me to be a hate criminal on pain of committing a criminal offence if I do not comply with the Law's directive.

    Personally I think the Prof deserves disciplinary action, and boy does Oxford Uni have a lot of highly intelligent stupid people therein.

    [snip].

    While I think the referral stupid, unless it was done in the name of the university, I don't see a valid reason to discipline. Freedom of speech and action, and all that.

    Whether the police have reason to prosecute for Wasting Police Time is another matter.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,886
    ReggieCide said:

    SquareRoot said:

    felix said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Marcher Lord
    "No, I haven't actually seen the speech"

    This is toe-curling https://t.co/DQCpxqWTRL

    Sebastian Payne
    Watch @afneil demolish Joshua Silver of Oxford University on Amber Rudd's Tory conference speech
    https://t.co/Bt0yQM7TnM

    Aptitude for Physics no help in political debate. Who knew? Extraordinary that he also clearly lacks the self-awareness to know how limited he is.
    it was a politically based complaint imho.. which is even worse. Neil should have asked him about his political allegiance.
    Didn't need asking did it?
    The Natural Law Party?
This discussion has been closed.