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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The LEAVE campaign’s message on the NHS is still resonating strongly with those who voted for BREXIT

The latest YouGov out today, asks a question that has nor been put for some time – whether people think that leaving the EU will be good for the NHS.

Read the full story here

Floater

first

TheScreamingEagles

That £350m per week for the NHS has the potential to be the new 'Read my lips, no new taxes'

MaxPB

TheScreamingEagles said:

That £350m per week for the NHS has the potential to be the new 'Read my lips, no new taxes'

Which is why the Tories will promise an extra £70m per week per year in the manifesto. That's an additional £350m per week by the end of the period and it allows for inflation to cut into the real terms amount by well over half. That will satisfy almost everyone, including voters in Lab/Con marginals who voted Leave.

SandyRentool

So in the future Jamaican nurses with perfect English will not be disadvantaged versus Spanish nurses with so-so English when seeking work in the UK.

That sounds like something that would have a Good Effect on the NHS.

NickPalmer

I hink LEAVE voters have in mind not so much the £350m but the expected big drop in immigaion, coupled with unchanged levels of staffing. Good luck with that too.

FPT on the idle watch chatter (any advice?):

I have a 40-year-old manual Omega which still keeps reasonably good time, and have occasionally thoght about selling it - no idea where to go for that, though,or whether it's worth anything. There's no brand name - Seamaster or whatever - and I think my mum simply bought it in Switzerland as a boirthday present.

The people who irritate me are the ones who make a point of not wearing a watch, in a lofty I'm-modern way, and then frequently ask you the time.

FeersumEnjineeya

Nobody knows whether the promise can be achieved, and I imagine it's going to be pretty tricky to determine for sure whether it has been achieved or not. What would be the criteria? How will we know?

Scott_P

NickPalmer said:

I hink LEAVE voters have in mind not so much the £350m but the expected big drop in immigaion, coupled with unchanged levels of staffing. Good luck with that too.

The shameless advert that showed empty hospitals after Brexit (and no foreign medical staff...)

Scott_P

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Nobody knows whether the promise can be achieved, and I imagine it's going to be pretty tricky to determine for sure whether it has been achieved or not. What would be the criteria? How will we know?

This seems fairly easy to measure,,,

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1

David_Evershed

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

MaxPB

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Nobody knows whether the promise can be achieved, and I imagine it's going to be pretty tricky to determine for sure whether it has been achieved or not. What would be the criteria? How will we know?

Is £350m per week extra being spent on the NHS? If yes, then it has been achieved, if no then it hasn't. £70m additional per week per year for 5 years is what I'm sure the Tories will campaign on. It would be stupid not to.

philiph

Or do people think a reduction in immigration will alleviate some of the increasing demand and stress in the NHS?

The reasons for the responses may not be binary.

Philip_Thompson

Of course it will be good for the NHS. The Remainers were only able to dispute the rebated part of the £350mn that still leaves many hundreds of millions left to fund the NHS.

Without even considering the impact of supply and demand by potentially restricting low-skilled migration while continuing to allow the free movement of doctors and nurses.

SandyRentool

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

They still believe the crap spouted by Project Fear.

FeersumEnjineeya

Scott_P said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Nobody knows whether the promise can be achieved, and I imagine it's going to be pretty tricky to determine for sure whether it has been achieved or not. What would be the criteria? How will we know?

This seems fairly easy to measure,,,

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1

The promise is £350 million per week more than would otherwise be spent (if we remained in the EU). The tricky bit is determining the amount that would otherwise be spent. If you don't know that, you can't determine if the promise has been kept.

TOPPING

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

tpfkar

I'd have thought this would be a perfect amendment to put onto the Article 50 bill, should the Supreme Court require one to be tabled.

Of course it would be about preventing the Government from backsliding, showing commitment to the NHS, and demonstrating that the Leave campaign pledges will be fulfilled.

The bar chart is one of the starkest I've seen about the national divide on this.

TOPPING

NickPalmer said:

I hink LEAVE voters have in mind not so much the £350m but the expected big drop in immigaion, coupled with unchanged levels of staffing. Good luck with that too.

FPT on the idle watch chatter (any advice?):

I have a 40-year-old manual Omega which still keeps reasonably good time, and have occasionally thoght about selling it - no idea where to go for that, though,or whether it's worth anything. There's no brand name - Seamaster or whatever - and I think my mum simply bought it in Switzerland as a boirthday present.

The people who irritate me are the ones who make a point of not wearing a watch, in a lofty I'm-modern way, and then frequently ask you the time.

1. Keep it, it's a nice reminder of your family and won't be worth as much as to make it worth getting rid of.
2. "The people who irritate me are the ones who make a point of not wearing a watch, in a lofty I'm-modern way, and then frequently ask you the time" - do you meet many such people in your travels, Nick?

MaxPB

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Scott_P said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Nobody knows whether the promise can be achieved, and I imagine it's going to be pretty tricky to determine for sure whether it has been achieved or not. What would be the criteria? How will we know?

This seems fairly easy to measure,,,

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1

The promise is £350 million per week more than would otherwise be spent (if we remained in the EU). The tricky bit is determining the amount that would otherwise be spent. If you don't know that, you can't determine if the promise has been kept.

If the government spends an additional £350m per week on the NHS how many people do you think are going to quibble about where the money is coming from? The money is what's important, if that is fulfilled then no one is going to care how.

TheScreamingEagles

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/817367620441796609

Philip_Thompson

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

tpfkar

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

I'd suggest four main reasons, all dependent on the final deal:
1) General economic impact means less treasury resources to go round
2) Harder to recruit staff from Europe
3) Increased cost of medical equipment due to tariffs / having to find alternative suppliers
4) Increased regulatory costs if having to sustain our own systems (see the discussion on the European Medicines Agency the other day.)

edmundintokyo

SandyRentool said:

So in the future Jamaican nurses with perfect English will not be disadvantaged versus Spanish nurses with so-so English when seeking work in the UK.

That sounds like something that would have a Good Effect on the NHS.

The NHS won't be able to hire either of them, because even if the Department of Health think they need the people, they won't be able to get the Home Office to issue a bunch of new visas. The Home Office has immigration targets to meet, and NHS staffing isn't their problem.

Carolus_Rex

NickPalmer said:

I hink LEAVE voters have in mind not so much the £350m but the expected big drop in immigaion, coupled with unchanged levels of staffing. Good luck with that too.

FPT on the idle watch chatter (any advice?):

I have a 40-year-old manual Omega which still keeps reasonably good time, and have occasionally thoght about selling it - no idea where to go for that, though,or whether it's worth anything. There's no brand name - Seamaster or whatever - and I think my mum simply bought it in Switzerland as a boirthday present.

The people who irritate me are the ones who make a point of not wearing a watch, in a lofty I'm-modern way, and then frequently ask you the time.

I don't wear a watch in a lofty "I'm so clumsy I keep breaking them" way. But if I want to know the time, I look at my phone.

Unless you have a brand name and evidence of its provenance I'd be surprised if your watch was worth more than its sentimental value, so I'd keep it if I were you. You could always wait until they have a free listing day on Ebay and then put it on at a stupidly high reserve to see if it attracts any interest.

TOPPING

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

David_Evershed

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Ishmael_Z

Dromedary said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Dromedary said:

(snip)

It's true that you can't argue logically against the existence of absolute truth, but logic is conscious-mental and necessarily linguistic, and there are some truths that cannot be proved logically. Even logicians have recognised this, since Gödel proved it , although many had understood it, and knew it was true, for much longer. (Ask any woman!)

No. What Gödel showed was that for any given axiomatised logical or mathematical system there would be correct propositions which could not be proved or disproved within that system. A very different thing.

How is it different? "Correct propositions" are a kind of truth, and all logic is based on axioms. My formulation just points up that what he proved was a case of a wider truth.

You can't jump from "unprovable within system F" to "not provable at all". The statements with which G was concerned are in fact true, but not provably true in the specific systems in which they are made. I can't explain better than wiki does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorems

(In fact I couldn't now explain at all without a crib, but I could have done so 30 years ago when studying "Gödel , Escher, Bach")

williamglenn

David_Evershed said:

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Farage is less quotable.

FeersumEnjineeya

MaxPB said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Scott_P said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Nobody knows whether the promise can be achieved, and I imagine it's going to be pretty tricky to determine for sure whether it has been achieved or not. What would be the criteria? How will we know?

This seems fairly easy to measure,,,

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1

The promise is £350 million per week more than would otherwise be spent (if we remained in the EU). The tricky bit is determining the amount that would otherwise be spent. If you don't know that, you can't determine if the promise has been kept.

If the government spends an additional £350m per week on the NHS how many people do you think are going to quibble about where the money is coming from? The money is what's important, if that is fulfilled then no one is going to care how.

You're misunderstanding my argument. The problem is in determining the baseline from which to measure. Spending on the NHS has been increasing by about £2.5 billion each year for the last few years, and this rate of increase was already set to continue for the next few years. This equates to an increase of about £50 million per week each year before any additional income arising from leaving the EU is taken into account. Surely the public then have a right to expect this rate of increase to rise to 50 + 350 / 5 = £120 million per week for the next 5 years if the NHS promise is to be fulfilled?

isam

Recent anecdotes from NHS Hospital in East London where my Dad had his knee replaced

Nurse1.. voted Leave (although was Australian I think, maybe she said she "would" vote Leave), said all her workmates had as well. Too many people need treating, we need to cut immigration

Nurse2... Slovakian/Portuguese... said A&E should no longer be free of charge. People get pissed/high do themselves damage and they have to pick up pieces

Doctor... Asian British... said NHS has to be privatised to survive, but it is such a political sacred cow that no party dare lose votes by suggesting it

justin124

Today’s Yougov poll giving the Tories a GB lead of 13% would imply that Copeland is neck and neck – Labour would hold by 0.1%!

Philip_Thompson

tpfkar said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

I'd suggest four main reasons, all dependent on the final deal:
1) General economic impact means less treasury resources to go round
2) Harder to recruit staff from Europe
3) Increased cost of medical equipment due to tariffs / having to find alternative suppliers
4) Increased regulatory costs if having to sustain our own systems (see the discussion on the European Medicines Agency the other day.)

#2 and #3 we could unilaterally fix by the government saying they will cut tariffs on medical equipment (globally not just Europe) and make it easier to recruit staff (globally not just Europe).

I fail to see how the EU makes either of them easier if we are just fishing in a European rather than a global pool for the best talent and equipment.

TheScreamingEagles

Philip_Thompson said:

tpfkar said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

I'd suggest four main reasons, all dependent on the final deal:
1) General economic impact means less treasury resources to go round
2) Harder to recruit staff from Europe
3) Increased cost of medical equipment due to tariffs / having to find alternative suppliers
4) Increased regulatory costs if having to sustain our own systems (see the discussion on the European Medicines Agency the other day.)

#2 and #3 we could unilaterally fix by the government saying they will cut tariffs on medical equipment (globally not just Europe) and make it easier to recruit staff (globally not just Europe).

I fail to see how the EU makes either of them easier if we are just fishing in a European rather than a global pool for the best talent and equipment.

Robert will know better than me, but don't the WTO rules prevent exactly what you're proposing re cutting tariffs.

Philip_Thompson

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

If the Filipina nurse is more talented or qualified than the EU one then absolutely we would taken a huge step forwards. If the EU one is more talented or qualified then why hasn't she got the job?

I don't understand why we would only want Europe's nurses instead of the world's best nurses. Can you explain that to me?

isam

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Even the mighty Enoch, when it was Tory policy to pay immigrants to go home, wanted a visa system where 5-10k a year could come and work

edmundintokyo

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Yes, Britain is full of intelligent people, and lots of them work for the government, but the British government is institutionally stupid.

The specific mechanism behind this stupidity is that the voters don't like immigration, and the minister responsible for keeping making their low-immigration wishes come true isn't responsible for making sure there's someone to help them out when they get sick.

You see the same thing happening when it comes to letting in overseas students: The minister in charge of universities wants to let them in to help British students, the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants to let them in to help the economy, and the Foreign Office pays grants to the British Council to help encourage people to come to boost British soft power, but the Home Office wants them to go away, and they're the ones who get to decide.

Philip_Thompson

TheScreamingEagles said:

Philip_Thompson said:

tpfkar said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

I'd suggest four main reasons, all dependent on the final deal:
1) General economic impact means less treasury resources to go round
2) Harder to recruit staff from Europe
3) Increased cost of medical equipment due to tariffs / having to find alternative suppliers
4) Increased regulatory costs if having to sustain our own systems (see the discussion on the European Medicines Agency the other day.)

#2 and #3 we could unilaterally fix by the government saying they will cut tariffs on medical equipment (globally not just Europe) and make it easier to recruit staff (globally not just Europe).

I fail to see how the EU makes either of them easier if we are just fishing in a European rather than a global pool for the best talent and equipment.

Robert will know better than me, but don't the WTO rules prevent exactly what you're proposing re cutting tariffs.

If we cut tariffs for Europe-only not globally then the WTO rules prevent it yes. Under WTO Most Favoured Nation rules we have to apply the same tariffs to everyone (except those we have a special trade deal with).

To make the transition smoother we are maintaining the same tariff rates in the short term as we had in the EU but in the longer term I don't see why we couldn't put medical equipment as a zero-rated item globally.

Luckyguy1983

TheScreamingEagles said:

Philip_Thompson said:

tpfkar said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

I'd suggest four main reasons, all dependent on the final deal:
1) General economic impact means less treasury resources to go round
2) Harder to recruit staff from Europe
3) Increased cost of medical equipment due to tariffs / having to find alternative suppliers
4) Increased regulatory costs if having to sustain our own systems (see the discussion on the European Medicines Agency the other day.)

#2 and #3 we could unilaterally fix by the government saying they will cut tariffs on medical equipment (globally not just Europe) and make it easier to recruit staff (globally not just Europe).

I fail to see how the EU makes either of them easier if we are just fishing in a European rather than a global pool for the best talent and equipment.

Robert will know better than me, but don't the WTO rules prevent exactly what you're proposing re cutting tariffs.

That Economist article (I know) said not if they're global, only if they're preferential to one country or another.

Richard_Nabavi

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding, as regards the NHS specifically, is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

TheScreamingEagles

Philip_Thompson said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Philip_Thompson said:

tpfkar said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

I'd suggest four main reasons, all dependent on the final deal:
1) General economic impact means less treasury resources to go round
2) Harder to recruit staff from Europe
3) Increased cost of medical equipment due to tariffs / having to find alternative suppliers
4) Increased regulatory costs if having to sustain our own systems (see the discussion on the European Medicines Agency the other day.)

#2 and #3 we could unilaterally fix by the government saying they will cut tariffs on medical equipment (globally not just Europe) and make it easier to recruit staff (globally not just Europe).

I fail to see how the EU makes either of them easier if we are just fishing in a European rather than a global pool for the best talent and equipment.

Robert will know better than me, but don't the WTO rules prevent exactly what you're proposing re cutting tariffs.

If we cut tariffs for Europe-only not globally then the WTO rules prevent it yes. Under WTO Most Favoured Nation rules we have to apply the same tariffs to everyone (except those we have a special trade deal with).

To make the transition smoother we are maintaining the same tariff rates in the short term as we had in the EU but in the longer term I don't see why we couldn't put medical equipment as a zero-rated item globally.

Thanks (and to LuckyGuy too)

TOPPING

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

If the Filipina nurse is more talented or qualified than the EU one then absolutely we would taken a huge step forwards. If the EU one is more talented or qualified then why hasn't she got the job?

I don't understand why we would only want Europe's nurses instead of the world's best nurses. Can you explain that to me?

Europe's nurses are part of a much larger mutually beneficial package for the country.

Luckyguy1983

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

Philip_Thompson

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

If the Filipina nurse is more talented or qualified than the EU one then absolutely we would taken a huge step forwards. If the EU one is more talented or qualified then why hasn't she got the job?

I don't understand why we would only want Europe's nurses instead of the world's best nurses. Can you explain that to me?

Europe's nurses are part of a much larger mutually beneficial package for the country.

Why?

And why won't we be able to attract them post-Brexit?

AlastairMeeks

Richard_Nabavi said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

For now, I'd agree. The more useful question is how this will change over time, particularly if - as seems pretty likely - at some point the NHS is perceived to be struggling.

FeersumEnjineeya

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

If the Filipina nurse is more talented or qualified than the EU one then absolutely we would taken a huge step forwards. If the EU one is more talented or qualified then why hasn't she got the job?

I don't understand why we would only want Europe's nurses instead of the world's best nurses. Can you explain that to me?

Europe's nurses are part of a much larger mutually beneficial package for the country.

Why?

And why won't we be able to attract them post-Brexit?

Devaluation of the pound will make British wages less attractive.

Dromedary

daodao said:

The AfD won't do as well as they might hope without a charismatic F....r, but I do expect them to reach 20% (once parties that fail to reach the 5% threshold are excluded). The French are lucky that they have 2-stage elections, so charismatic radicals are much less likely to progress in the 2nd round.

The time is so ripe for the rise of a big-time "charismatic F....r", perhaps even, ironically, on the scale of a large portion of non-Russian Europe, with acolytes or avatars in several countries. And who knows, maybe even in the regions, warming the Evolists' hearts. The US and Russia have already got their charismatic F....rs. Give it a few years.

In France, a charismatic could seize the show at the TV debate that usually falls between the two rounds. I wouldn't call Jean-Marie Le Pen charismatic, but nonetheless in 2002 Jacques Chirac thought it best not to debate with him. His daughter has already learnt to stand with her arms out like Jesus on the cross.

isam

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

For now, I'd agree. The more useful question is how this will change over time, particularly if - as seems pretty likely - at some point the NHS is perceived to be struggling.

Both right I reckon.. "X" could be "The weather" and the split would be similar

Luckyguy1983

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

For now, I'd agree. The more useful question is how this will change over time, particularly if - as seems pretty likely - at some point the NHS is perceived to be struggling.

When has it not been perceived to be struggling?

TOPPING

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

Pulpstar

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

For now, I'd agree. The more useful question is how this will change over time, particularly if - as seems pretty likely - at some point the NHS is perceived to be struggling.

The NHS is permanently in crisis though ?

isam

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

Yorkcity

David_Evershed said:

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Brian Clough won two European cups with an unfashionable side.Maybe Farage will win two European referendums when we vote on Brexit deal.

logical_song

It's official - Brexit Street leads nowhere.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/france-beaucaire-circular-road-brexit-street-mayor-julien-sanchez-robert-schuman-2016-12

TOPPING

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

isam

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

TOPPING

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

Very wise man, Sam. Let me approach this from a different perspective. I find the idea of foreign NHS staff treating only the indigenous British deeply unattractive.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/817379028021563392

Tykejohnno

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

Very wise man, Sam. Let me approach this from a different perspective. I find the idea of foreign NHS staff treating only the indigenous British deeply unattractive.

Who said indigenous ?

isam

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

very wise man, Sam. Let me approach this from a different perspective. I find the idea of foreign NHS staff treating only the indigenous British deeply unattractive.

Well obviously, if they were ill, they would be treated on the NHS as well, as would their families. So what is so unattractive about it?

surbiton

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

It is noticeable that you did not answer the question and instead insulted TOPPING. Or, have you not got an answer ?

CarlottaVance

Luckyguy1983 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

For now, I'd agree. The more useful question is how this will change over time, particularly if - as seems pretty likely - at some point the NHS is perceived to be struggling.

When has it not been perceived to be struggling?

There were a couple of weeks just after it opened.....but since then it's been a struggle of infinite demand meeting finite supply....

AlastairMeeks

I see that Betfair has finally settled the US election turnout market.

isam

Tykejohnno said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

Very wise man, Sam. Let me approach this from a different perspective. I find the idea of foreign NHS staff treating only the indigenous British deeply unattractive.

Who said indigenous ?

I tend to take the unsubtle "you're a racist" jibes as a sign I am winning the argument

isam

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/817379028021563392

Because we haven't left probably. The public "rightly expected" Cameron to trigger A50, as he promised

http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/cameron-government-would-promptly-trigger-article-50-in-the-event-of-a-leave-vote/

Luckyguy1983

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think that's an appalling caricature, but at any rate I can't speak for anyone but me.

I think believe one of the absolute basic attributes of a sovereign nation is to control who comes within its borders. There may be future circumstances where we need more immigration, and circumstances where we need less, but either way it must be controlled, like a canal lock, not Niagara falls.

Luckyguy1983

CarlottaVance said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

For now, I'd agree. The more useful question is how this will change over time, particularly if - as seems pretty likely - at some point the NHS is perceived to be struggling.

When has it not been perceived to be struggling?

There were a couple of weeks just after it opened.....but since then it's been a struggle of infinite demand meeting finite supply....

Must have been quite something to see then. Spotless corridors, matron, nurses clicking along in starched uniforms (rather than slouching around in pyjamas like they do these days). Like you say, for about two weeks...

Floater

Priceless

http://order-order.com/2017/01/06/corbyns-economist-jibe-backfires/

TOPPING

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/817379028021563392

"I have asked the House to assemble because I wanted to clear the air. As we all know, the past few months have been unprecedented in our recent history as the British people voted to leave the EU.

"As you will understand, such an undertaking is enormous, and will require us all to put our shoulders to the wheel to bring about a good outcome for the UK. I am here to apologise that not enough planning was done for this outcome but I can assure you and the people of the UK that we will be allocating our best people, increasing the size of departments where needed, and sparing nothing in our attempt to succeed which I can assure you we will do.

"As a first step, we will be consulting widely with industry in order to understand more clearly what the country needs and how we can deliver it. Once we have done that, we will be in a very strong position to begin negotiations with our EU partners to ensure we arrive at a strong, enduring and favourable deal for us.

"As you would expect, these things take time and it is for that reason that I have decided to wait before I trigger Article 50. This will give us the maximum time to ensure we can provide the best solution for all of us.

"While this is ongoing, you will understand also that the situation will remain fluid. I will update the House as and when I am able but it will often be the case that our consultations will be ongoing and I don't want to prejudice their outcome. Be assured, in each industrial and service sector we will publish our findings as soon as we are able and I look forward to the support from everyone in the House as we move through these challenging, but very exciting times."

But no, it was just the "no running commentary" bollocks.

Floater

Oh - just saw this too

https://twitter.com/InspGadgetBlogs/status/817265665899921408/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

williamglenn

isam said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/817379028021563392

Because we haven't left probably. The public "rightly expected" Cameron to trigger A50, as he promised

http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/cameron-government-would-promptly-trigger-article-50-in-the-event-of-a-leave-vote/

Which would have been unconstitutional of course.

TOPPING

isam said:

Tykejohnno said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

Very wise man, Sam. Let me approach this from a different perspective. I find the idea of foreign NHS staff treating only the indigenous British deeply unattractive.

Who said indigenous ?

I tend to take the unsubtle "you're a racist" jibes as a sign I am winning the argument

Not racist, Sam, just bizarre, frankly.

isam

williamglenn said:

isam said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/817379028021563392

Because we haven't left probably. The public "rightly expected" Cameron to trigger A50, as he promised

http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/cameron-government-would-promptly-trigger-article-50-in-the-event-of-a-leave-vote/

Which would have been unconstitutional of course.

Oh I see! When Cameron said we should "rightly expect" him to trigger A50, what he meant was "the public would rightly expect that.. but they'd be wrong, because they don't understand the constitution, and have forgotten that the referendum, which I have called "your decision, not mine, not politicians, yours" was only 'advisory' "

Cleverer man than I thought!

Floater

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

For now, I'd agree. The more useful question is how this will change over time, particularly if - as seems pretty likely - at some point the NHS is perceived to be struggling.

The NHS is permanently in crisis though ?

How many "x" days to save the NHS" campaigns are we up to now?

TOPPING

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think that's an appalling caricature, but at any rate I can't speak for anyone but me.

I think believe one of the absolute basic attributes of a sovereign nation is to control who comes within its borders. There may be future circumstances where we need more immigration, and circumstances where we need less, but either way it must be controlled, like a canal lock, not Niagara falls.

Which bit is the appalling caricature?

rottenborough

Floater said:

Priceless

http://order-order.com/2017/01/06/corbyns-economist-jibe-backfires/

Another fine day in Jezza's bunker.

Floater

Floater said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that the significance of this opinion poll finding is all that great.

Imagine an opinion poll which asked the question "Will leaving the EU have a good or bad effect on X?", where X was anything from 'the economy' to 'unemployment' or 'inequality' or 'the car industry'. You might well get similar answers as you do when X is 'the NHS': those who voted Leave think Brexit is a good thing for Britain, and those who voted Remain don't.

For now, I'd agree. The more useful question is how this will change over time, particularly if - as seems pretty likely - at some point the NHS is perceived to be struggling.

The NHS is permanently in crisis though ?

How many "x" days to save the NHS" campaigns are we up to now?

Amusingly I thought I would check via google - I got returns for 2016, 15, 14,13 etc


Shocked I tell you.

MikeSmithson

isam said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/817379028021563392

Because we haven't left probably. The public "rightly expected" Cameron to trigger A50, as he promised

http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/cameron-government-would-promptly-trigger-article-50-in-the-event-of-a-leave-vote/

Which would have been unconstitutional of course.

Oh I see! When Cameron said we should "rightly expect" him to trigger A50, what he meant was "the public would rightly expect that.. but they'd be wrong, because they don't understand the constitution, and have forgotten that the referendum, which I have called "your decision, not mine, not politicians, yours" was only 'advisory' "

Cleverer man than I thought!

Why didn't kippers kick up a fuss about it only being advisory when the Referendum bill was going through? The AV referendum legislation set out precisely what would happen if the vote had gone YES. More fool leavers for failing on this count

AlastairMeeks

I don't think that Theresa May's "no running commentary" is what's causing her the problems. It's what she has said (and permitted to be said by other government ministers) that's leading to problems.

Tykejohnno

TOPPING said:

isam said:

Tykejohnno said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

Very wise man, Sam. Let me approach this from a different perspective. I find the idea of foreign NHS staff treating only the indigenous British deeply unattractive.

Who said indigenous ?

I tend to take the unsubtle "you're a racist" jibes as a sign I am winning the argument

Not racist, Sam, just bizarre, frankly.

Well why did you put indigenous ? When sam wrote british.

TOPPING

Tykejohnno said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

Tykejohnno said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

David_Evershed said:

Why do REMAIN voters think leaving the EU will be bad for the NHS?

staffing

Because we're so stupid we're not going to give visa's to foreign staff?

Why?

Oh I'm sure we would give them visas. Swap an EU nurse for a Filipina one. We will have achieved a huge step forward in taking control of immigration.

You don't think we have more control over the immigration status of someone who has been issued a visa than we do over someone with freedom of movement?

It's a view.

I am saying that as it stands we have a large number of EU nationals in the NHS. Part of the motivation for Brexit was to reduce immigration. Now of course Brexiters such as yourself are at pains to point out it is not the number, it is the control.

But the reality for "those people out there" is that it is the number of furriners walking our streets. For such people, whether nurses are Latvian or Jamaican will not alter matters much. It is a phantom "control" because although you will have achieved your aim, a large number of people will feel that not much has changed, certainly not what they thought they were voting for.

I think for a large number of people out there, they don't care if the nurses are Jamaican or Latvian as long as the patients are British.

The NHS employs 1.2m people. What happens when they get ill if they are all foreign?

You cant be that stupid, I will have to take it you are being smart by playing dumb

Very wise man, Sam. Let me approach this from a different perspective. I find the idea of foreign NHS staff treating only the indigenous British deeply unattractive.

Who said indigenous ?

I tend to take the unsubtle "you're a racist" jibes as a sign I am winning the argument

Not racist, Sam, just bizarre, frankly.

Well why did you put indigenous ? When sam wrote british.

Carried away by my own hyperbole. The point stands with it removed.

TheWhiteRabbit

Floater said:

Oh - just saw this too

https://twitter.com/InspGadgetBlogs/status/817265665899921408/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Who needs a study? This guy has it sussed in 140 characters.

TOPPING

AlastairMeeks said:

I don't think that Theresa May's "no running commentary" is what's causing her the problems. It's what she has said (and permitted to be said by other government ministers) that's leading to problems.

All of which would have been seen in a more sparing light if she had prefaced everything with a "farkin' ell we're in a right two an' eight".

Innocent_Abroad

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

That £350m per week for the NHS has the potential to be the new 'Read my lips, no new taxes'

Which is why the Tories will promise an extra £70m per week per year in the manifesto. That's an additional £350m per week by the end of the period and it allows for inflation to cut into the real terms amount by well over half. That will satisfy almost everyone, including voters in Lab/Con marginals who voted Leave.

It will only satisfy those who admire creative accounting.

isam

MikeSmithson said:

isam said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/817379028021563392

Because we haven't left probably. The public "rightly expected" Cameron to trigger A50, as he promised

http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/cameron-government-would-promptly-trigger-article-50-in-the-event-of-a-leave-vote/

Which would have been unconstitutional of course.

Oh I see! When Cameron said we should "rightly expect" him to trigger A50, what he meant was "the public would rightly expect that.. but they'd be wrong, because they don't understand the constitution, and have forgotten that the referendum, which I have called "your decision, not mine, not politicians, yours" was only 'advisory' "

Cleverer man than I thought!

Why didn't kippers kick up a fuss about it only being advisory when the Referendum bill was going through? The AV referendum legislation set out precisely what would happen if the vote had gone YES. More fool leavers for failing on this count

Snappy! Put it on a Lib Dem poster Mike!

Floater

Scott probably missed this one

http://order-order.com/2017/01/06/brexit-support-soars-among-over-50s/

logical_song

Yorkcity said:

David_Evershed said:

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Brian Clough won two European cups with an unfashionable side.Maybe Farage will win two European referendums when we vote on Brexit deal.

Did Farage win the Referendum? Wasn't it mainly the Boris/Gove show?

SandyRentool

logical_song said:

Yorkcity said:

David_Evershed said:

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Brian Clough won two European cups with an unfashionable side.Maybe Farage will win two European referendums when we vote on Brexit deal.

Did Farage win the Referendum? Wasn't it mainly the Boris/Gove show?

Nah, it was Labour Leave wot won it:

"Wipe the smile off their faces", and all that.

isam

logical_song said:

Yorkcity said:

David_Evershed said:

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Brian Clough won two European cups with an unfashionable side.Maybe Farage will win two European referendums when we vote on Brexit deal.

Did Farage win the Referendum? Wasn't it mainly the Boris/Gove show?

Has there ever been polling on this? I would say it went Boris, Farage, Gove

Ishmael_Z

logical_song said:

Yorkcity said:

David_Evershed said:

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Brian Clough won two European cups with an unfashionable side.Maybe Farage will win two European referendums when we vote on Brexit deal.

Did Farage win the Referendum? Wasn't it mainly the Boris/Gove show?

No Farage, no referendum. Like it or not, the two most influential politicians in the UK since Tony Blair have been Salmond and Farage.

TheWhiteRabbit

isam said:

logical_song said:

Yorkcity said:

David_Evershed said:

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Brian Clough won two European cups with an unfashionable side.Maybe Farage will win two European referendums when we vote on Brexit deal.

Did Farage win the Referendum? Wasn't it mainly the Boris/Gove show?

Has there ever been polling on this? I would say it went Boris, Farage, Gove

I don't think you could ever poll that meaningfully.

People regularly underestimate how viewing any sort of advertisement has changed their perception.

isam

Ishmael_Z said:

logical_song said:

Yorkcity said:

David_Evershed said:

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Brian Clough won two European cups with an unfashionable side.Maybe Farage will win two European referendums when we vote on Brexit deal.

Did Farage win the Referendum? Wasn't it mainly the Boris/Gove show?

No Farage, no referendum. Like it or not, the two most influential politicians in the UK since Tony Blair have been Salmond and Farage.

But Farage lost 7 times trying to be an MP so, although he has achieved his lifetimes ambition and changed the face of British politics, he is still a loser....

dr_spyn

Diversity Manager, Corbynite & Parish Councillor are Labour hoping to lose? http://labourlist.org/2017/01/corbynista-and-nhs-manager-named-as-labours-candidate-in-west-of-england/

Richard_Tyndall

There are two separate points being made by the thread header and only one of them is addressed in the poll quoted.

The first - which is not referenced in the poll and which Mike adds in - is the question of the £350 million a week. This was a dumb move by Leave from start to finish. The real number that could realistically be available was around £210 million. Even if we reasonably accept that not all of that money would be put to the NHS it was at least a number that could be proved was a potential saving fro leaving the EU and is still a vast amount of money. The £350 million could not reasonably defended by anyone with a modicum of integrity.

But that aside the second point is whether or not any extra money will be available from leaving the EU. Obviously most people, quite reasonably, believe that it will be and I do not share Mike's view that this will be difficult to fulfil. Remain supporters seem to be under the mistaken impression that because the £350 million figure is garbage then the alternative is that there will be no benefit for the NHS at all. I suspect they are the ones who will find this a difficult position to maintain.

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Philip_Thompson

logical_song said:

It's official - Brexit Street leads nowhere.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/france-beaucaire-circular-road-brexit-street-mayor-julien-sanchez-robert-schuman-2016-12

You think the industrial estate with the businesses and jobs etc there that the Rue leads to is nowhere?

It's a thought. Who needs industry or jobs? Not people like @logical_song ...

isam

Regarding the "advisory" wheeze, is what those who lost the referendum wish us to believe, that had Cameron campaigned for Leave, but Remain had won, they would be ok with him triggering A50 and us leaving anyway?

Scott_P

Richard_Tyndall said:

the second point is whether or not any extra money will be available from leaving the EU. Obviously most people, quite reasonably, believe that it will be

Only if you believe in the Brexit dividend bullshit.

If we take a financial hit from leaving there will not be any extra money for anything, especially the NHS

Richard_Tyndall

Scott_P said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

the second point is whether or not any extra money will be available from leaving the EU. Obviously most people, quite reasonably, believe that it will be

Only if you believe in the Brexit dividend bullshit.

If we take a financial hit from leaving there will not be any extra money for anything, especially the NHS

You really don't pay any attention to actual news at all do you. I am afraid the only one spouting bullshit around here is you.

Philip_Thompson

isam said:

Ishmael_Z said:

logical_song said:

Yorkcity said:

David_Evershed said:

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/817358268712493056

Nigel Farage is the Brian Clough of politics.

Discuss.

Brian Clough won two European cups with an unfashionable side.Maybe Farage will win two European referendums when we vote on Brexit deal.

Did Farage win the Referendum? Wasn't it mainly the Boris/Gove show?

No Farage, no referendum. Like it or not, the two most influential politicians in the UK since Tony Blair have been Salmond and Farage.

But Farage lost 7 times trying to be an MP so, although he has achieved his lifetimes ambition and changed the face of British politics, he is still a loser....

People like John Redwood, Douglas Carswell and the rest of the 81 Tory rebels that forced Cameron to hold a referendum also achieved their ambitions while managing to get elected.

dr_spyn

Re Labour Metro Mayor in Bristol, Bath ex MP no she's a Diversity Manager tick, Corbinite tick, Parish Councillor tick.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/bristol-metro-mayor-election-2017-labour-candidate-revealed/story-30036003-detail/story.html

Ishmael_Z

Scott_P said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

the second point is whether or not any extra money will be available from leaving the EU. Obviously most people, quite reasonably, believe that it will be

Only if you believe in the Brexit dividend bullshit.

If we take a financial hit from leaving there will not be any extra money for anything, especially the NHS

If.

(© Sparta)