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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Getting a sense of proportion over rail fares: the overwhelmin

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
    edited January 2017
    You hear this a lot, Mrs May needs to rein in her staff

    While he had a longstanding relationship with Mrs May and was consulted by her on the government’s Brexit strategy, Sir Ivan’s relations with some of the prime minister’s team began to deteriorate in recent months.

    https://www.ft.com/content/b2ec4e31-1f15-3d00-95a2-2ba462fe98e3
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,370
    From the Bloomberg article:

    "It touts the city as the top hub in continental Europe for interest-rate swaps trading with some $141 billion of the derivatives changing hands in France every day. That compares with $1.18 trillion in the U.K."

    So I suppose the real question is whether Paris can stay 10% the size of London in this market. The trends would suggest otherwise.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    JonathanD said:

    "Trams are just inflexible buses taking up too much space. Why cities have an obsession with spending huge amounts on duplicating something that already works better can only be down to civic status symbols, I guess"

    If you think a tram is akin to a bus I think it highlights how rarely you use either a bus or a tram to be honest.

    I take the bus into work most days in Manchester and the tram occasionally. The tram as an inflexible, more expensive bus seems a fine description to me. GMPTE should have put the tram money into building more dedicated bus roads instead - Ottawa has a good example of this sort of system.

    Manchester trams seem plagued by delays and people driving onto the tracks and getting stuck.
    The biggest delays to Manchester trams is pedestrians walking onto the tram tracks, seems to be a real problem around Market Street.
    I'll wave next time I do :wink:
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    I don't know why any investment bank would want to head to Paris after the recent court case judgement there, French employment law is as ridiculous as our deportation laws are.

    Amsterdam I'd have thought was a better bet.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    'lure'

    Makes it sound like Paris is a paedo or some such...
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    DavidL said:

    From the Bloomberg article:

    "It touts the city as the top hub in continental Europe for interest-rate swaps trading with some $141 billion of the derivatives changing hands in France every day. That compares with $1.18 trillion in the U.K."

    So I suppose the real question is whether Paris can stay 10% the size of London in this market. The trends would suggest otherwise.
    It won't, we're all losing business to Singapore and HK. Only NY has been relatively safe, but that is down to the huge domestic market.
  • Options
    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD said:

    "Trams are just inflexible buses taking up too much space. Why cities have an obsession with spending huge amounts on duplicating something that already works better can only be down to civic status symbols, I guess"

    If you think a tram is akin to a bus I think it highlights how rarely you use either a bus or a tram to be honest.

    I take the bus into work most days in Manchester and the tram occasionally. The tram as an inflexible, more expensive bus seems a fine description to me. GMPTE should have put the tram money into building more dedicated bus roads instead - Ottawa has a good example of this sort of system.

    Manchester trams seem plagued by delays and people driving onto the tracks and getting stuck.
    The biggest delays to Manchester trams is pedestrians walking onto the tram tracks, seems to be a real problem around Market Street.
    I'll wave next time I do :wink:
    It's all those shoppers that come piling out of Primark.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,914
    malcolmg said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
    True.

    But I had no idea that so few people outside of London used trains to get to work.

    On a personal note... I dislike the bulging maps and much prefer the dot based ones that aim to scale for population.
    They should be getting charged full fares instead of the rest of the country subsidising london as usual. What a bunch of blood suckers London and environs are.
    I think there's a case for subsidising trains on environmental grounds? I'd be keen to see more investment in trains outside of London.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    Pulpstar said:

    'lure'

    Makes it sound like Paris is a paedo or some such...

    Chris Morris should do an EUgeddon spoof. :)
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    MaxPB said:

    If you knew even an ounce about the City then you'd realise why 20,000 is a nothing figure. It also reads like a press release from the mayor of Paris who has been desperately trying to talk up Paris vs Singapore and HK which are the real danger markets for London's dominance of finance. Paris is like the annoying fly in front of the alpha elephant that is London, Singapore and HK are two rival males who have teamed up to try and take down the alpha.
    Yes, Switzerland is surely preferable for financial refugees from Brexitland.
    Another non-EU market that is in much better shape than Paris.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD said:

    "Trams are just inflexible buses taking up too much space. Why cities have an obsession with spending huge amounts on duplicating something that already works better can only be down to civic status symbols, I guess"

    If you think a tram is akin to a bus I think it highlights how rarely you use either a bus or a tram to be honest.

    I take the bus into work most days in Manchester and the tram occasionally. The tram as an inflexible, more expensive bus seems a fine description to me. GMPTE should have put the tram money into building more dedicated bus roads instead - Ottawa has a good example of this sort of system.

    Manchester trams seem plagued by delays and people driving onto the tracks and getting stuck.
    The biggest delays to Manchester trams is pedestrians walking onto the tram tracks, seems to be a real problem around Market Street.
    I'll wave next time I do :wink:
    It's all those shoppers that come piling out of Primark.
    Probably going to the bus stop!
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,691
    "interest-rate swaps trading"

    What shite is that? Can't these buffoons do something useful with their time?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    edited January 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't know why any investment bank would want to head to Paris after the recent court case judgement there, French employment law is as ridiculous as our deportation laws are.

    Amsterdam I'd have thought was a better bet.

    No, they will stay in London. There is just too much inertia and as you point out European law isn't exactly favourable to banking and finance.

    And whatever one thinks of the A50 case currently progressing through the courts, it is one of those cases which shows how much stock the rule of law holds in the UK. The government being bound by the courts is a new positive for banks IMO, and not specifically to A50 but in general terms.
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    All those derogating Paris forget the wonderful and protective French employment laws - a major magnet for employers!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    edited January 2017

    "interest-rate swaps trading"

    What shite is that? Can't these buffoons do something useful with their time?

    Is this where all that quantitative easing cash ends up ?

    With the banks so they can all shuffle the cash round each other and then the loser gets a bailout at the expense of the taxpayer ?
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    Odd question but any idea what the 'hot spot' in, errr, Wiltshire is?
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    From the Bloomberg article:

    "It touts the city as the top hub in continental Europe for interest-rate swaps trading with some $141 billion of the derivatives changing hands in France every day. That compares with $1.18 trillion in the U.K."

    So I suppose the real question is whether Paris can stay 10% the size of London in this market. The trends would suggest otherwise.
    It won't, we're all losing business to Singapore and HK. Only NY has been relatively safe, but that is down to the huge domestic market.
    Once London loses the rest of Europe as it's 'domestic market' Id imagine it will decline gently but steadily unless the government manages another big bang like deregulation or slashes taxes.
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    The latest report that we saw said one of the biggest risks to the UK financial services from Brexit is tax increases, both corporation and personal taxes.

    Scenario is that a hard Brexit/no deal is bad for the economy and tax revenues fall off a cliff, and the Treasury have to raise taxes to make up the shortfall.
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    @MaxPB - there are now big questions being asked about the rule of law and judicial independence in Hong Long. Unless things change, which is doubtful, business will move from there to Singapore or even Shanghai (the latter on the basis that if there is no predictable rule of law in HK you might as well be in the PRC where the action is).
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JonathanD said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    From the Bloomberg article:

    "It touts the city as the top hub in continental Europe for interest-rate swaps trading with some $141 billion of the derivatives changing hands in France every day. That compares with $1.18 trillion in the U.K."

    So I suppose the real question is whether Paris can stay 10% the size of London in this market. The trends would suggest otherwise.
    It won't, we're all losing business to Singapore and HK. Only NY has been relatively safe, but that is down to the huge domestic market.
    Once London loses the rest of Europe as it's 'domestic market' Id imagine it will decline gently but steadily unless the government manages another big bang like deregulation or slashes taxes.
    I would expect the decline of the City to be gradual (and my old flatmate suggesting already underway) with recruitment in London frozen, but scaled up at continental offices.

    Hopefully this will get our economy back intto balance rather than over reliant on financial services. It should in time reduce the importance of London relative to the rest of the UK. Long overdue.
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    On topic. and leaving aside the facts that the car causes deaths and maimings in the millions through pollution, physical inactivity and outright collisions, this graph might help us to understand why desperation, and not a supposed increase in efficiency by privatisation, may be the main reason for the increase in passenger numbers.

    I would label the difference, in suitable units, between the two curves "DE" for "desperation index".

    http://nosearmy.com/roadpricing/GettingAroundp2.htm
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Now that the vastly experienced EU ambassador who knows where all the bodies are buried has quit, to be replaced a Brexit approved replacement, when the inevitable negotiated fuckup occurs how long will it take Leavers to blame the guy that left?

    a. 1 month?
    b. 1 week?
    c. 1 day?
    d. Already happened?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420

    Odd question but any idea what the 'hot spot' in, errr, Wiltshire is?

    Looks like South West Wiltshire, and (I think), Chippenham
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    David Herdson said:
    'The polls over the last two years were broadly right and in some cases, virtually spot on. Cherry-picking the exceptions is as big an error as cherry-picking a poll for any other reason.

    And as MD has pointed out, it's usually been the left that's been overstated when there has been an error (though it's notable that the exception to that historic trend is, I think, 1983, and that also Boris was overstated vs Ken in 2012, suggesting that unpopular Labour candidates might outperform their polling when that polling is itself weak). '

    The polls also understated Labour in 2010 and February 1974.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,370

    "interest-rate swaps trading"

    What shite is that? Can't these buffoons do something useful with their time?

    Interest rate swaps have played an absolutely essential role in providing banks with enough money to pay their fines. If they had not so wilfully mis sold these to SMEs they had were would not have had the resources to pay for their last lot of misselling.

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    MattW said:

    Nice to see this topic covered. However :-)

    1 - The subsidies have not been dropped to "almost nothing". In 2014-15 the rail subsidy was £5 billion:
    http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/18842/rail-finance-statistical-release-2014-15.pdf

    (Snip)

    What price some factual data?

    Your post is not detailed enough. True, the rail subsidy was £4.8 billion. Money to and from train operators more that wipes its face, meaning the subsidy goes to Network Rail for infrastructure.

    What do Network Rail do with it? They spend in three main areas: maintenance (keeping existing infrastructure in order); renewals (renewing life-expired equipment) and enhancements (e.g. Crossrail, Great Western Electrification).

    It can certainly be argued that maintenance and renewals should come from the passengers' and operators' coffers. Enhancements, however, may be a different matter.

    Crossrail costs were over a billion, and HS2 a few hundred million more. Then there are other enhancement costs such as electrification.

    Basically: is commuters want ticket prices to go down, the easiest and quickest way to do so would be to stop all enhancements on the network.
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    Brexit: UK's top EU diplomat Sir Ivan Rogers resigns
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38498839

    I see the bbc doing a classic 0.1% massive / nothing routine again. Crucial role in brexit but was going to leave in Nov..how can you play a major role in a 2 year process if you are going to leave a few months in.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Odd question but any idea what the 'hot spot' in, errr, Wiltshire is?

    Swindon?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,517
    What is meant by 'Hot spot' - Reading surely has the most going on?
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    Odd question but any idea what the 'hot spot' in, errr, Wiltshire is?

    Something to do with the Bristol commute?
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    @foxinsoxuk - the problem is that what your old flatmate is predicting will not just happen in the City. All companies that do a lot of business in the single market will take measures to ensure that they remain a part of it. We will - and we are a million miles from being in finance. If the UK ends up leaving the single market in any meaningful way this will mean that jobs that would have been created in the UK and investments which would have been made here will now be enjoyed elsewhere in Europe. This won't lead to big job losses, but it does mean less growth than otherwise would have been the case and little or no chance of any standard of living boosts through much higher wages. Unless, that is, we do end up with those amazing trade deals we were promised (I am sceptical on that as I just don't see the incentives for others to play ball with us).
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited January 2017

    Odd question but any idea what the 'hot spot' in, errr, Wiltshire is?

    Something to do with the Bristol commute?
    I would guess Bristol <-> Bath & Bath <-> swindon as surprisingly the train connection within Bristol & from nearby places like avonmouth as basically non-exist.

    Also lot of human traffic flows both ways & road connection is terrible.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    JonathanD said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    From the Bloomberg article:

    "It touts the city as the top hub in continental Europe for interest-rate swaps trading with some $141 billion of the derivatives changing hands in France every day. That compares with $1.18 trillion in the U.K."

    So I suppose the real question is whether Paris can stay 10% the size of London in this market. The trends would suggest otherwise.
    It won't, we're all losing business to Singapore and HK. Only NY has been relatively safe, but that is down to the huge domestic market.
    Once London loses the rest of Europe as it's 'domestic market' Id imagine it will decline gently but steadily unless the government manages another big bang like deregulation or slashes taxes.
    I would expect the decline of the City to be gradual (and my old flatmate suggesting already underway) with recruitment in London frozen, but scaled up at continental offices.

    Hopefully this will get our economy back intto balance rather than over reliant on financial services. It should in time reduce the importance of London relative to the rest of the UK. Long overdue.
    I'd like to see evidence of a recruitment freeze in London. I haven't seen it, just as I was leaving we had a bunch of new starts coming into the junior teams from university. A friend recently took up a position at an American investment bank as well, and they are probably the most bearish on London. On the other side the team I'm moving to in Zurich has two people recruited out of Frankfurt and one from London (me) in it as new hires.

    Overall I don't think there is very much change at all in recruitment. What I have noticed is that remainers are much more likely to see what they want to see, take Samuel Tombs today on the PMI expectations smash, it is a true "despite Brexit" statement.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Odd question but any idea what the 'hot spot' in, errr, Wiltshire is?

    I think it may be Reading, Berkshire, rather than Wiltshire. Reading is one of the busiest hubs outside London IIRC.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MaxPB said:

    What I have noticed is that remainers are much more likely to see what they want to see, take Samuel Tombs today on the PMI expectations smash, it is a true "despite Brexit" statement.

    Brexit logic 101

    "The EU is a straight-jacket on our business, a declining trade block, a stranglehold on our manufacturing and exporting sectors"

    "Look at those PMIs !!"


    (despite still being in all of the EU institutions...)
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    @MaxPB - there are now big questions being asked about the rule of law and judicial independence in Hong Long. Unless things change, which is doubtful, business will move from there to Singapore or even Shanghai (the latter on the basis that if there is no predictable rule of law in HK you might as well be in the PRC where the action is).

    Yes the way China is undermining HK is very worrying. It's got so bad there that some wish for fat Chris Patten to come back.
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    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB - there are now big questions being asked about the rule of law and judicial independence in Hong Long. Unless things change, which is doubtful, business will move from there to Singapore or even Shanghai (the latter on the basis that if there is no predictable rule of law in HK you might as well be in the PRC where the action is).

    Yes the way China is undermining HK is very worrying. It's got so bad there that some wish for fat Chris Patten to come back.
    F##k me things must be really bad if they want that idiot back.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    What I have noticed is that remainers are much more likely to see what they want to see, take Samuel Tombs today on the PMI expectations smash, it is a true "despite Brexit" statement.

    Brexit logic 101

    "The EU is a straight-jacket on our business, a declining trade block, a stranglehold on our manufacturing and exporting sectors"

    "Look at those PMIs !!"


    (despite still being in all of the EU institutions...)
    As always, stick to copying people smarter than you, original thought is not your strength.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    The place in Wiltshire is centred on Westbury. The train that runs from South Wales to Portsmouth is notoriously busy. There has been talk of running revamped HSTs on this route once the IEPs enter service which would be good.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Brexit: UK's top EU diplomat Sir Ivan Rogers resigns
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38498839

    I see the bbc doing a classic 0.1% massive / nothing routine again. Crucial role in brexit but was going to leave in Nov..how can you play a major role in a 2 year process if you are going to leave a few months in.

    TBH, I find my distrust of the MSM really disconcerting. I've discounted bias for ages, but things have changed to outright propaganda.

    I don't want it to be true, yet it is. The Times is running an anti Impress series of articles. Many of the accompanying comments are eff off/you aren't truth tellers either.

    A year ago, I'd have jumped to support them - now nope. The MSM don't deserve to be a privileged class anymore. How very sad.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130

    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB - there are now big questions being asked about the rule of law and judicial independence in Hong Long. Unless things change, which is doubtful, business will move from there to Singapore or even Shanghai (the latter on the basis that if there is no predictable rule of law in HK you might as well be in the PRC where the action is).

    Yes the way China is undermining HK is very worrying. It's got so bad there that some wish for fat Chris Patten to come back.
    F##k me things must be really bad if they want that idiot back.
    That future awaits even us if Brexit goes to pot.

    The people in CCHQ cheering when he lost his seat in 1992 were a precursor of the way in which Tory Eurosceptics had completely lost touch with the national interest.
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    Out of curiosity, how far away from work do most PBers live?

    I'm about 40 odd miles away from work, and about 50 mins on the train/10 mins on the tram from work.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    tlg86 said:

    The place in Wiltshire is centred on Westbury. The train that runs from South Wales to Portsmouth is notoriously busy. There has been talk of running revamped HSTs on this route once the IEPs enter service which would be good.

    The IEP project is appearing increasingly disastrous for both passengers and taxpayers.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MaxPB said:

    As always, stick to copying people smarter than you, original thought is not your strength.

    As always, play the man, not the ball when you have no argument...
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    A useful tutorial for those seeking to understand the link between pricing and demand on the railways:
    https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/do-we-really-need-to-explain-supply-and-demand-again
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Out of curiosity, how far away from work do most PBers live?

    I'm about 40 odd miles away from work, and about 50 mins on the train/10 mins on the tram from work.

    7 miles. I used to cycle, but now drive.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    Toms said:

    On topic. and leaving aside the facts that the car causes deaths and maimings in the millions through pollution, physical inactivity and outright collisions, this graph might help us to understand why desperation, and not a supposed increase in efficiency by privatisation, may be the main reason for the increase in passenger numbers.

    I would label the difference, in suitable units, between the two curves "DE" for "desperation index".

    http://nosearmy.com/roadpricing/GettingAroundp2.htm

    Just a coincidence then, that passenger numbers have doubled since privatisation, after decades of decline (and, IIRC, passenger-miles have increased even more, to an all time high)?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314

    Out of curiosity, how far away from work do most PBers live?

    I'm about 40 odd miles away from work, and about 50 mins on the train/10 mins on the tram from work.

    Currently working part-time at home. So about three yards from my bedroom in the morning!
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Out of your average season ticket - how much % wise goes on staff wages and pensions ?

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,370
    I am about 60 miles away but I work at home (or stay over in Edinburgh) at least 1 day a week. I could not hack it every day.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986

    Out of curiosity, how far away from work do most PBers live?

    I'm about 40 odd miles away from work, and about 50 mins on the train/10 mins on the tram from work.

    10 miles, car is 1/2 hr-40 mins each way; bus & walk would be 1 hr 30 with two or three changes I think.
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    @Scott_P we were told time and again that the expectation of leaving those EU institutions would cause an immediate and profound economic shock. It hasn't. How many times does this point have to be made?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    Out of curiosity, how far away from work do most PBers live?

    I'm about 40 odd miles away from work, and about 50 mins on the train/10 mins on the tram from work.

    I live about 30 miles from work. I cycle, train and walk.

    tlg86 said:

    The place in Wiltshire is centred on Westbury. The train that runs from South Wales to Portsmouth is notoriously busy. There has been talk of running revamped HSTs on this route once the IEPs enter service which would be good.

    The IEP project is appearing increasingly disastrous for both passengers and taxpayers.
    It's received very little attention outside of the railway press. It's scandalous.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,987
    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    As always, stick to copying people smarter than you, original thought is not your strength.

    As always, play the man, not the ball when you have no argument...
    Who are you quoting? They can't spell straitjacket
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Toms said:

    On topic. and leaving aside the facts that the car causes deaths and maimings in the millions through pollution, physical inactivity and outright collisions, this graph might help us to understand why desperation, and not a supposed increase in efficiency by privatisation, may be the main reason for the increase in passenger numbers.

    I would label the difference, in suitable units, between the two curves "DE" for "desperation index".

    http://nosearmy.com/roadpricing/GettingAroundp2.htm

    Just a coincidence then, that passenger numbers have doubled since privatisation, after decades of decline (and, IIRC, passenger-miles have increased even more, to an all time high)?
    That road mileage map doesn't seem to differentiate between B roads and motorways either.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Essexit said:

    @Scott_P we were told time and again that the expectation of leaving those EU institutions would cause an immediate and profound economic shock. It hasn't. How many times does this point have to be made?

    We haven't left...
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,517
    Is it considered out of the question to have double decker trains? I mean this one actually looks quite workable height-wise.
    image
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,691
    @tlg86 - There used to plenty of space on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services when they were loco-hauled services back in the day. Switching to DMU operation on many routes reduced capacity, taking away the flexibility to add extra coaches.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Suspect one reason people commute long distances to work are the eye watering rates of stamp duty - a massive disincentive to moving house.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,987
    Scott_P said:

    Essexit said:

    @Scott_P we were told time and again that the expectation of leaving those EU institutions would cause an immediate and profound economic shock. It hasn't. How many times does this point have to be made?

    We haven't left...
    "the expectation of leaving"
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    Essexit said:

    @Scott_P we were told time and again that the expectation of leaving those EU institutions would cause an immediate and profound economic shock. It hasn't. How many times does this point have to be made?

    We haven't left...
    "the expectation of leaving"
    Those expectations were dashed on June 24th when Cameron passed the buck. Everyone understood it was a poisoned chalice.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    TGOHF said:

    Suspect one reason people commute long distances to work are the eye watering rates of stamp duty - a massive disincentive to moving house.


    Agreed. Stamp duty should be abolished for anyone's main home.

    It just a (huge) Moving Tax.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    isam said:

    "the expectation of leaving"

    We haven't begun the process of leaving.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    As always, stick to copying people smarter than you, original thought is not your strength.

    As always, play the man, not the ball when you have no argument...
    A leave vote will cause a technical recession.

    I'm sure you copied and pasted that in the aftermath as well. Not leaving, but just the vote. Leaving may well cause a recession. I've not made up my mind either way, but the vote to leave was never going to cause a recession and idiots like Tombs (and you who blindly copy and paste from his rubbish) keep talking up that chance because it's what they want to happen. They want the UK to fail because the EU is so very dear to them. I don't know what will happen, I've never really claimed to know. What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway. You can either go by the data or by "experts" you love to quote who want the UK to fail. I'll stick to the data.
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    Out of curiosity, how far away from work do most PBers live?

    20 miles as crow flies. Walk, train, walk. 70 minutes! (Local chugger train into Waterloo stops bloody everywhere).
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited January 2017

    Brexit: UK's top EU diplomat Sir Ivan Rogers resigns
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38498839

    I see the bbc doing a classic 0.1% massive / nothing routine again. Crucial role in brexit but was going to leave in Nov..how can you play a major role in a 2 year process if you are going to leave a few months in.

    Actually, that is a very fair point. How could Sir Ivan play a major role in such circumstances?

    Still, I don't think that that is the reason he's going in the way that he has announced; if it were, the announcement would have been something about working with his successor for a transitional period.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    TGOHF said:

    Suspect one reason people commute long distances to work are the eye watering rates of stamp duty - a massive disincentive to moving house.


    Agreed. Stamp duty should be abolished for anyone's main home.

    It just a (huge) Moving Tax.

    Agreed, triple it for second property and keep the 3% surcharge. Make the scum landlords pay through the nose.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,987
    Scott_P said:

    isam said:

    "the expectation of leaving"

    We haven't begun the process of leaving.

    "the expectation of leaving"
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403

    "interest-rate swaps trading"

    What shite is that? Can't these buffoons do something useful with their time?

    Look upon it as the law of comparative advantage for credit risk.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MaxPB said:

    What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway.

    I agree. The point though is that if all of that is "despite" anything, it can only be "despite" our membership of the EU, not despite something that hasn't happened.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403

    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB - there are now big questions being asked about the rule of law and judicial independence in Hong Long. Unless things change, which is doubtful, business will move from there to Singapore or even Shanghai (the latter on the basis that if there is no predictable rule of law in HK you might as well be in the PRC where the action is).

    Yes the way China is undermining HK is very worrying. It's got so bad there that some wish for fat Chris Patten to come back.
    F##k me things must be really bad if they want that idiot back.
    He was adored in HK.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway.

    I agree. The point though is that if all of that is "despite" anything, it can only be "despite" our membership of the EU, not despite something that hasn't happened.
    We voted to leave, that, according to your favourite "experts", was supposed to result in fire and brimstone for the UK economy. An immediate technical recession, please point me in the direction of that data.
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    @David_Herdson

    Well obviously the are many factors, and the phrase "tipping point" did pop into my mind. From the graph it looks like rail usage was fairly stable from about twenty years before Privatisation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail#/media/File:GBR_rail_passengers_by_year_1830-2015.png

    Also, I am well placed to comment that in England at least there has been a sort of "Toad of Toad Hall" love affair with the car (very roughly) 'till about the sixties or seventies. Now people take car ownership as a birth right just as have the Americans for a couple of generations before. When something becomes taken for granted its concomitant downsides begin to bite. This is the desperation to which I refer.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MaxPB said:

    We voted to leave, that, according to your favourite "experts", was supposed to result in fire and brimstone for the UK economy. An immediate technical recession, please point me in the direction of that data.

    We haven't left yet...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what will happen, I've never really claimed to know. What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway.

    Given the rosy picture you paint, if you were the one with the responsibility, would you push the Brexit button, not knowing what was going to happen, or would you hope someone else did it so you could avoid the burden?
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    @ rottenborough

    Bedroom to home office. About 50 feet.

    Unless I go into the office (rare event), in which case 30 miles or so.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    We voted to leave, that, according to your favourite "experts", was supposed to result in fire and brimstone for the UK economy. An immediate technical recession, please point me in the direction of that data.

    We haven't left yet...
    But it was supposed to happen after the vote, again you're avoiding that point because it completely undermines the whole of project doom which you so readily bought into and plugged on here for months before and after.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,696
    edited January 2017
    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    Suspect one reason people commute long distances to work are the eye watering rates of stamp duty - a massive disincentive to moving house.


    Agreed. Stamp duty should be abolished for anyone's main home.

    It just a (huge) Moving Tax.

    Agreed, triple it for second property and keep the 3% surcharge. Make the scum landlords pay through the nose.
    That seems rather oafish, bearing in mind that you just made 100s of k tax free from property speculation in a very short time.

    Osbo has significantly slowed down the market by hiking transaction taxes; a very bad idea.

    I'd say remove the CGT exemption inside the M25.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    edited January 2017
    Stamp Duty can normally just be added onto the mortgage. It's not as big a factor as people make out, especially since Osborne's excellent change to abolish the slab calculation reduced the bill for almost everyone.

    High house prices are a much more pressing factor.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what will happen, I've never really claimed to know. What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway.

    Given the rosy picture you paint, if you were the one with the responsibility, would you push the Brexit button, not knowing what was going to happen, or would you hope someone else did it so you could avoid the burden?
    I'd respect the will of the people and leave the EU but look to stay in the single market and fix the problem of unskilled immigration by eliminating all in working benefits and introducing social access charges for non-residents.
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    @MaxPB you'd be better off talking to a wall
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205

    @tlg86 - There used to plenty of space on the Cardiff-Portsmouth services when they were loco-hauled services back in the day. Switching to DMU operation on many routes reduced capacity, taking away the flexibility to add extra coaches.

    Very true. I meant to reply to your comment on older stock in t' north. You lucky so and sos have these to look forward to:

    http://tinyurl.com/jjpceqk

    I am hoping whoever wins the South Western franchise proposes something similar to replace the 159s on the West of England line out of Waterloo.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MaxPB said:

    But it was supposed to happen after the vote, again you're avoiding that point

    Article 50 was supposed to happen after the vote.

    It hasn't happened yet. We haven't left. We haven't started leaving. We haven't scheduled the start of the process of beginning leaving.

    again you're avoiding that point...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what will happen, I've never really claimed to know. What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway.

    Given the rosy picture you paint, if you were the one with the responsibility, would you push the Brexit button, not knowing what was going to happen, or would you hope someone else did it so you could avoid the burden?
    I'd respect the will of the people and leave the EU but look to stay in the single market and fix the problem of unskilled immigration by eliminating all in working benefits and introducing social access charges for non-residents.
    What would you say to people who said that staying in the single market was not respecting the will of the people? Resort to a lawyerly interpretation of the referendum question?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Not sure how the Uk negotiation team will cope with the genius who thought Cameron's deal was a terrific one which would prevent Brexit...
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    I went to London recently from York 1 hour 58 mins non stop to Kings Cross.Good service.One of the national papers had a report regarding the rise in house prices near York station due to commuters to London ,do not know if this is the case or just hype.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    Is it considered out of the question to have double decker trains? I mean this one actually looks quite workable height-wise.
    image

    They have been used in the past on the Southern:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

    Although they were split-level, rather than true double-deckers.

    The costs of introducing them would be massive: it's proving expensive enough to alter parts of the network to cope with enhanced freight clearances.

    The following has details on UK loading gauge, if you're sad enough to be interested:
    https://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/groups-and-committees/2013-guide-vehicle-structure-sic-guide-to-british-gauging-t926.pdf

    People have been increasingly talking about bringing double-deckers back, using advantages of new technology. However there are significant issues. ISTR an underappreciated one is that they take much longer to load and unload at stations: a vital factor on the busy commuter lines on which they will be used. You gain passengers per train, but lose trains per hour.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    Suspect one reason people commute long distances to work are the eye watering rates of stamp duty - a massive disincentive to moving house.


    Agreed. Stamp duty should be abolished for anyone's main home.

    It just a (huge) Moving Tax.

    Agreed, triple it for second property and keep the 3% surcharge. Make the scum landlords pay through the nose.
    That is rather oafish, bearing in mind that you just made 100s of k tax free from property speculation in a very short time.

    I'd say remove the CGT exemption inside the M25.
    Much more than that actually, but I did live in my flat and spent a pretty large amount on converting the attic. Taxing people on where they live instead of taxing landlords will go down really well, you should suggest it at your next Labour meeting. A property tax for living in your own home, it looks and sounds like a perfect policy for Jez.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what will happen, I've never really claimed to know. What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway.

    Given the rosy picture you paint, if you were the one with the responsibility, would you push the Brexit button, not knowing what was going to happen, or would you hope someone else did it so you could avoid the burden?
    I'd respect the will of the people and leave the EU but look to stay in the single market and fix the problem of unskilled immigration by eliminating all in working benefits and introducing social access charges for non-residents.
    But that is not the will of the people. The will of the people is to leave the single market. So you want to respect the will of the people but ignore them when you think it makes sense.

    Of course I appreciate your view is that any kind of out is better than what we had when in but that any kind of out could be quite damaging, couldn't it. Otherwise you would want any kind of out (no single market, etc).
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    justin124 said:

    David Herdson said:
    'The polls over the last two years were broadly right and in some cases, virtually spot on. Cherry-picking the exceptions is as big an error as cherry-picking a poll for any other reason.

    And as MD has pointed out, it's usually been the left that's been overstated when there has been an error (though it's notable that the exception to that historic trend is, I think, 1983, and that also Boris was overstated vs Ken in 2012, suggesting that unpopular Labour candidates might outperform their polling when that polling is itself weak). '

    The polls also understated Labour in 2010 and February 1974.

    True, although only a little and not in relative terms vs the Conservatives in 2010, which was virtually spot on. In that case, it was the Lib Dems the pollsters found too much support for.

    I don't

    Out of curiosity, how far away from work do most PBers live?

    I'm about 40 odd miles away from work, and about 50 mins on the train/10 mins on the tram from work.

    About 15 miles. On a perfect run, I can do door-to-desk in about 35 mins but more usually I'd give it 45 mins to avoid risking missing my usual train.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what will happen, I've never really claimed to know. What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway.

    Given the rosy picture you paint, if you were the one with the responsibility, would you push the Brexit button, not knowing what was going to happen, or would you hope someone else did it so you could avoid the burden?
    I'd respect the will of the people and leave the EU but look to stay in the single market and fix the problem of unskilled immigration by eliminating all in working benefits and introducing social access charges for non-residents.
    What would you say to people who said that staying in the single market was not respecting the will of the people? Resort to a lawyerly interpretation of the referendum question?
    They are free to campaign to leave the single market. As long as we leave the political EU it doesn't really matter after that. Over time I think we'd leave the single market anyway, or at least the single market won't hold the same attractive quality it does at the moment.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    But it was supposed to happen after the vote, again you're avoiding that point

    Article 50 was supposed to happen after the vote.

    It hasn't happened yet. We haven't left. We haven't started leaving. We haven't scheduled the start of the process of beginning leaving.

    again you're avoiding that point...
    The vote to leave was supposed to cause a recession. Please point me in the direction of that data. It's put up or shut up time.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Scott ,"we have not left yet " very true maybe we should stay as long as we can then if the economy is so good.10 years might be a good bet.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    Suspect one reason people commute long distances to work are the eye watering rates of stamp duty - a massive disincentive to moving house.


    Agreed. Stamp duty should be abolished for anyone's main home.

    It just a (huge) Moving Tax.

    Agreed, triple it for second property and keep the 3% surcharge. Make the scum landlords pay through the nose.
    That is rather oafish, bearing in mind that you just made 100s of k tax free from property speculation in a very short time.

    I'd say remove the CGT exemption inside the M25.
    Much more than that actually, but I did live in my flat and spent a pretty large amount on converting the attic. Taxing people on where they live instead of taxing landlords will go down really well, you should suggest it at your next Labour meeting. A property tax for living in your own home, it looks and sounds like a perfect policy for Jez.
    Vince's Mansion Tax went down a storm with his voters...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what will happen, I've never really claimed to know. What I do know is that right now the economy is booming, savings are up, the trade deficit is finally falling and now manufacturing is booming due to overseas demand. That's what the data says anyway.

    Given the rosy picture you paint, if you were the one with the responsibility, would you push the Brexit button, not knowing what was going to happen, or would you hope someone else did it so you could avoid the burden?
    I'd respect the will of the people and leave the EU but look to stay in the single market and fix the problem of unskilled immigration by eliminating all in working benefits and introducing social access charges for non-residents.
    What would you say to people who said that staying in the single market was not respecting the will of the people? Resort to a lawyerly interpretation of the referendum question?
    They are free to campaign to leave the single market.
    They just have. They think they've won a referendum on the subject.

    Staying in the single market would require rejoining EFTA - did anyone vote for that, and is it even diplomatically possible?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @patrickwintour: Clegg: "If the reports are true Sir Ivan has been hounded out by hostile Brexiteers in Government, it counts as a spectacular own goal".
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    Totally agree

    @JWoodcockMP: New level of craven from Daniel Kawczynski MP: email invite to his parliament event on Russian soft power. Hosted on behalf of Russia Today.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MaxPB said:

    The vote to leave was supposed to cause a recession.

    The vote to leave was supposed to be followed by Article 50

    Please point me in the direction of that happening
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,696
    edited January 2017
    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    Suspect one reason people commute long distances to work are the eye watering rates of stamp duty - a massive disincentive to moving house.


    Agreed. Stamp duty should be abolished for anyone's main home.

    It just a (huge) Moving Tax.

    Agreed, triple it for second property and keep the 3% surcharge. Make the scum landlords pay through the nose.
    That is rather oafish, bearing in mind that you just made 100s of k tax free from property speculation in a very short time.

    I'd say remove the CGT exemption inside the M25.
    Much more than that actually, but I did live in my flat and spent a pretty large amount on converting the attic. Taxing people on where they live instead of taxing landlords will go down really well, you should suggest it at your next Labour meeting. A property tax for living in your own home, it looks and sounds like a perfect policy for Jez.
    That's quite funny.

    It is called Capital Gains Tax because it is on the Capital Gain, not on living there.

    There are plenty of places with a tax on % of the value (not least Council Tax here in part).

    As for the Osborne Tax on rented property; the incidence is unfortunately on the Tenant.

    Politically I think it is about Mr Osborne eating Labour's lunch - a decision which cannot be faulted *politically*.
This discussion has been closed.