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SystemSystem Posts: 12,598
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Getting a sense of proportion over rail fares: the overwhelming majority of voters not affected

Map by Ian Warren of @Election_data

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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    First!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    edited January 2017
    I'm a working class Northerner and I'm a daily train commuter
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    FPT
    tlg86 said:

    david_herdson said:

    Off topic, a few thoughts from me on the (probable) Copeland by-election.

    http://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-tories-should-not-try-be-too-canny-copeland

    Very interesting - I agree that the Tories would be silly to soft pedal in Copeland. Out of interest, if the by election never happened - because it was a general election - would the bets on Copeland be settled on the result of the seat?
    Bets would be voided.

    The markets say it is for the Copeland by-election.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,754
    This is a fantastic map
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    The fare rise has been higher than the 2% I've seen in the news, loads of my friends have had 7-9% fare rises on the London commuter belt. I gather the railway companies have picked a few unpopular routes where they have cut fares so they can raise them well above inflation on the commuter lines.

    Sadiq Khan is getting a right royal fucking in our WhatsApp group as well because season ticket prices have gone up after promising no fare rises.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,531
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I'm a working class Northerner and I'm a daily train commuter

    Just proving once again, how exceptional you are, on so many levels....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    CarlottaVance said:

    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....

    Season tickets as well.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,776
    Mr. Smithson, this chimes with what I thought of when I saw the news. Another aspect is the London-centric slant.

    Nobody talks about nationalising buses. For outlying villages in rural areas that would make far more of a difference.

    Mr. Eagles, you're about as working class as the Queen of Bithynia.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited January 2017
    This is one of those superbly misleading maps like those showing that nearly all the UK is represented by Conservative MPs. Adjust by population in each region and you'd get a very different impression.

    Edit: I see @CarlottaVance has already made the same point.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,189
    edited January 2017
    CarlottaVance said:

    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....

    Who buys a (paper) single these days on the tube? The prices have been set so much higher for many years. So it is a defacto rise for everybody.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited January 2017
    I'm very pleased that Sadiq Khan has weaselled out of his ridiculous promise to freeze fares. It shows that he's just a cynical politician, rather than a nutjob in denial of financial reality.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,996
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    david_herdson said:

    Off topic, a few thoughts from me on the (probable) Copeland by-election.

    http://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-tories-should-not-try-be-too-canny-copeland

    Very interesting - I agree that the Tories would be silly to soft pedal in Copeland. Out of interest, if the by election never happened - because it was a general election - would the bets on Copeland be settled on the result of the seat?
    Bets would be voided.

    The markets say it is for the Copeland by-election.
    Thank you.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,133
    fpt
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    david_herdson said:

    David_Evershed said:

    TOPPING said:

    David_Evershed said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    williamglenn said:

    isam said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    @isam - the Tories leading the Remain and Leave campaigns told many, many lies during the referendum campaign.

    They di

    Whereas the quote I linked to from Cameron, speaking in the House of Commons, has turned out to be an outright lie. The lack of stick he has taken for that is quite something
    Is it a lie to say that the British people would expect it to start straight away, or in fact the truth?
    "would rightly expect" is the quote, and yes, if you are in charge of the country and you say what he said, then immediately leaving of your own volition without doing it can be considered a lie.

    You would have to be a complete imbecile of the highest order not to understand that to mean "I as PM will invoke A50 immediately should we vote Leave". What would you understand it to mean?
    As King of Tonga I am going to invade Fiji.

    Oh but wait. I am not King of Tonga.

    Plus it was the right decision and of benefit to the country. So what's the complaint? Surely you're not one of these types that would prefer to win an argumentative point at the expense of the country?
    Cameron said he would stay on as King of Tonga if he lost the referendum but instead he resigned.

    So another lie.
    Surely we don't have to explain the realities of campaigning and political activity (or "politics" for short) on this of all sites.
    You are correct - that the political reality is that politicians deliberately lie.
    Most politicians don't lie. Outright lies are rare because they usually get found out and they are devastating for credibility when they are. Cameron presumably did in this case because (1) if Remain won, his 'promises' on what he'd do if it were Leave would never be called on, and (2) if Leave won, his credibility would be shot anyway.
    That's the point though - posters like William Glenn and Topping think it's really clever when politicians utterly convince the public they will do something and leave enough wiggle room to get out later. But you, I, and the dogs in the street know that the intent was to deceive. People are bored of it.
    Plus, as you (of all people) and the dogs in the street know what is going on I find it difficult to climb onto the outrage bus. Politics is a nuanced science and yet on here, of all places, people expect it to be all primary colours.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,776
    Mr. Nabavi, and Miss Vance, whilst that would alter things, worth noting that there's still a fifth at the most using trains, but they're also subsidised by general taxation.

    When people argue for fares to be frozen, they're arguing for taxpayers who don't use trains to subsidise those who do. That's a legitimate position to hold, but the money has to come from somewhere.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,133
    MaxPB said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....

    Season tickets as well.
    It forms the basis of the current Cons campaign in London.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,189
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    I'm very pleased that Sadiq Khan has weaselled out of his ridiculous promise to freeze fares. It shows that he's just a cynical politician, rather than a nutjob in denial of financial reality.

    Is there anything he has stuck to, other than banning bikini pics?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,754
    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
    True.

    But I had no idea that so few people outside of London used trains to get to work.

    On a personal note... I dislike the bulging maps and much prefer the dot based ones that aim to scale for population.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....

    Season tickets as well.
    It forms the basis of the current Cons campaign in London.
    Yes, I think Labour are going to have a bit of a shock in the locals next year if there is another fare rise in January 2018. Someone in our WhatsApp group worked out that the only fares that have been frozen are bus and tram singles. Nobody gives a flying fuck about buses and trams. Most people who get those don't pay anyway I'd guess (kids and old people).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Is there anything he has stuck to, other than banning bikini pics?

    Fortunately not. He's therefore proving to be a quite reasonable mayor.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,531
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    I'm very pleased that Sadiq Khan has weaselled out of his ridiculous promise to freeze fares. It shows that he's just a cynical politician, rather than a nutjob in denial of financial reality.

    London's Magic Money Trees have had a poor crop this year, tiz all....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    I'm very pleased that Sadiq Khan has weaselled out of his ridiculous promise to freeze fares. It shows that he's just a cynical politician, rather than a nutjob in denial of financial reality.

    https://twitter.com/sadiqkhan/status/815895761237975040
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,776
    Mr. Max, I'm familiar with the pensioner bus pass, but why wouldn't children pay bus fare?

    Mr. Urquhart, if Morris Dancer were mayor, bikini pics would be free to delight the eye and arouse the consumer's interest.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/816256212316680192
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    tlg86 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    david_herdson said:

    Off topic, a few thoughts from me on the (probable) Copeland by-election.

    http://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-tories-should-not-try-be-too-canny-copeland

    Very interesting - I agree that the Tories would be silly to soft pedal in Copeland. Out of interest, if the by election never happened - because it was a general election - would the bets on Copeland be settled on the result of the seat?
    Bets would be voided.

    The markets say it is for the Copeland by-election.
    Thank you.
    I think it'll be easier for the Tories to take Copeland in a 2017 than in a 2017 by election
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,189
    edited January 2017
    Mail have named the guy from Bradford who the police shot last night. Mail hinting it is gangster related rather than terrorism.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Nabavi, and Miss Vance, whilst that would alter things, worth noting that there's still a fifth at the most using trains, but they're also subsidised by general taxation.

    When people argue for fares to be frozen, they're arguing for taxpayers who don't use trains to subsidise those who do. That's a legitimate position to hold, but the money has to come from somewhere.

    Indeed - and the usual headline 'UK train fares are three times (or some other outrageous multiple) of what they are in Europe' is usually comparing the most expensive fare - walk up, last minute, rather than the often much cheaper advanced fares.....I recently travelled from London to Birmingham, return, for £11.....I could have spent £176....
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,194
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/816256212316680192

    Causing our economic model of a vast trade deficit and ballooning public debt would be such a blow.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,531
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Urquhart, if Morris Dancer were mayor, bikini pics would be free to delight the eye and arouse the consumer's interest.

    But pictures of mankinis would be banned on grounds of protecting the public?

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mail have named the guy from Bradford who the police shot last night. Mail hinting it is gangster related rather than terrorism.

    On Look North this morning they said the police said it wasn't terrorist related.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Max, I'm familiar with the pensioner bus pass, but why wouldn't children pay bus fare?

    Mr. Urquhart, if Morris Dancer were mayor, bikini pics would be free to delight the eye and arouse the consumer's interest.

    School kids go free in London. Students get a reduction as well I think.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Max, I'm familiar with the pensioner bus pass, but why wouldn't children pay bus fare?

    Mr. Urquhart, if Morris Dancer were mayor, bikini pics would be free to delight the eye and arouse the consumer's interest.

    As a teenager in the early 80s - a child ticket on the Newcastle Metro was 5p. Paying for a ticket matters psychologically.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I'm a working class Northerner and I'm a daily train commuter

    I'm also one of the 2%.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    This is one of those superbly misleading maps like those showing that nearly all the UK is represented by Conservative MPs. Adjust by population in each region and you'd get a very different impression.

    Edit: I see @CarlottaVance has already made the same point.

    Yes and no. London and the SE would be bigger but there's virtually nowhere else in any of the bands above 5%.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited January 2017
    I notice the manufacturing "spike" doesn't make the front page of the Beeb. Shocked.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,996
    On topic: This fare:subsidy ratio of 75:25 has increased a lot in the last decade - I think it was about 50:50 at the turn of the century.

    Of course, this all varies by TOC:

    http://tinyurl.com/z8rvemf (statistical release)
    http://tinyurl.com/z379xv3 (data)

    If you travel on Southern (note: this is now part of GTR so will get absorbed into the super TOC), you are paying the government 6.2 pence per mile you travel.

    Meanwhile, rail users in Wales are subsidized 13.1 pence per mile, in Scotland the subsidy is 10.2 pence per mile and Northern users are subsidized 10.7 pence per mile.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,776
    Miss Plato, mine more than doubled during the course of time I was at secondary school.

    Mr. Max, .... luxury.

    Mr. Mark, pictures would be permitted. Advertising types who approved them would be flung into the North Sea by trebuchet, as reason dictates.

    Miss Vance, never use trains, but if I do I shall have to remember to ask advice on that sort of thing.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 931
    The map ignores tram and light rail systems, as such Manchester will have much heavier rail usage, but the numbers will not appear in that map since they are Metrolink and not heavy train commuters.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    O/T amusing double available today

    13:30 Musselburgh Proud Gamble
    14:10 Newcastle Glorious Politics
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    edited January 2017
    The form of public transport I don't use is the bus, I don't know why I'm so snobbish about them.

    Trains and trams is the way to go.

    Perhaps I'm just channelling my inner Thatcher when it comes to busses.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,776
    Nice to hear a the ex-MI6 boss speaking sense on electronic voting:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38408296
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mail have named the guy from Bradford who the police shot last night. Mail hinting it is gangster related rather than terrorism.

    On Look North this morning they said the police said it wasn't terrorist related.
    Looks like high-end cars:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4082864/Man-shot-dead-police-sliproad-M62-pre-planned-operation.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,996
    Worth saying that the ORR subsidy by TOC figures do not take account of the government funding of Network Rail. The DfT try to account for this in their publication:

    http://tinyurl.com/d8pjcwx

    Note: when this is taken into account, only SWT and Southern (as it was) were net contributors to the government coffers.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,658
    Nice to see this topic covered. However :-)

    1 - The subsidies have not been dropped to "almost nothing". In 2014-15 the rail subsidy was £5 billion:
    http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/18842/rail-finance-statistical-release-2014-15.pdf

    And does that include values for emissions etc as are included in calculations about road transport?

    2 - AFAIK rail investment in London is approximately 5x per head of that elsewhere. Needs attention.

    London commuters don't know they are born.

    At my local London mainline station - Alfreton Parkway - disabled people in wheel chairs have had to commute 20 miles to Nottingham and back again to cross to a different platform for the last several decades.

    3 - It was a wonderful exhbition of faked-up statistics forming fake news this morning. The Times headline claim about "fares are six times higher than Europe" and was Guardian's "workers spend 14% of their wages on a rail ticket" seem to be based on Action for Rail's theoretical claims about a single worker commuting from Luton to London.

    As far as I can tell the other parts of the media - BBC et al - swallowed the fake news without it touching the sides.

    What price some factual data?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357
    edited January 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
    True.

    But I had no idea that so few people outside of London used trains to get to work.

    On a personal note... I dislike the bulging maps and much prefer the dot based ones that aim to scale for population.
    Not only that they don't but also that they can't. I commute into Leeds and nearly all the trains are full by the time they arrive. Some could certainly be bigger but the scope to expand beyond 4-coach units is nil without a major investment upgrade: interim stations along the lines would need expanding and the terminal stations would need reconfiguring at a minimum. Congestion at the hub stations is also a limiting factor on running more frequent services.

    And then there's the simple fact that rail services are far more concentrated in London and the SE than in nearly all the rest of the country.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    ManchesterKurt said:

    The map ignores tram and light rail systems, as such Manchester will have much heavier rail usage, but the numbers will not appear in that map since they are Metrolink and not heavy train commuters.

    True, though presently I understand Metrolink numbers are roughly half the local heavy rail patronage, so it would only add 50%.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    ManchesterKurt said:

    The map ignores tram and light rail systems, as such Manchester will have much heavier rail usage, but the numbers will not appear in that map since they are Metrolink and not heavy train commuters.

    Sheffield, like Manchester are in the process of extending their tram network, as a regular user of both, I can say they are both dealing with more passengers each year.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,751
    CarlottaVance said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Nabavi, and Miss Vance, whilst that would alter things, worth noting that there's still a fifth at the most using trains, but they're also subsidised by general taxation.

    When people argue for fares to be frozen, they're arguing for taxpayers who don't use trains to subsidise those who do. That's a legitimate position to hold, but the money has to come from somewhere.

    Indeed - and the usual headline 'UK train fares are three times (or some other outrageous multiple) of what they are in Europe' is usually comparing the most expensive fare - walk up, last minute, rather than the often much cheaper advanced fares.....I recently travelled from London to Birmingham, return, for £11.....I could have spent £176....
    One of the nice things about Japanese rail is that there's hardly any of this bullshit. Apart from a few weird tourist things they don't even have a different price for return trips. You just swipe the card, get on the train and go where you want to go, then swipe it again on the way out and that's how much it cost.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357
    CarlottaVance said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Nabavi, and Miss Vance, whilst that would alter things, worth noting that there's still a fifth at the most using trains, but they're also subsidised by general taxation.

    When people argue for fares to be frozen, they're arguing for taxpayers who don't use trains to subsidise those who do. That's a legitimate position to hold, but the money has to come from somewhere.

    Indeed - and the usual headline 'UK train fares are three times (or some other outrageous multiple) of what they are in Europe' is usually comparing the most expensive fare - walk up, last minute, rather than the often much cheaper advanced fares.....I recently travelled from London to Birmingham, return, for £11.....I could have spent £176....
    The cost of my own season ticket (or monthly card, which is my preferred means of advance buying) is firmly in the 2-4% band so favourably mentioned in the context of continental travel.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 931
    "True, though presently I understand Metrolink numbers are roughly half the local heavy rail patronage, so it would only add 50%."


    No, think those figures are well off.

    Mertolink is now carrying about 35m passengers / year, having risen from about 20m / year 5 or so years ago before the massive expansion of the network.

    I may be wrong, but doubt the Manc heavy rail network carries anything like 70m passengers / year, on the whole the heavy rail services in and around Manc are awful, other than the London trains.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    david_herdson said:

    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
    True.

    But I had no idea that so few people outside of London used trains to get to work.

    On a personal note... I dislike the bulging maps and much prefer the dot based ones that aim to scale for population.
    Not only that they don't but also that they can't. I commute into Leeds and nearly all the trains are full by the time they arrive. Some could certainly be bigger but the scope to expand beyond 4-coach units is nil without a major investment upgrade: interim stations along the lines would need expanding and the terminal stations would need reconfiguring at a minimum. Congestion at the hub stations is also a limiting factor on running more frequent services.

    And then there's the simple fact that rail services are far more concentrated in London and the SE than in nearly all the rest of the country:
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....

    Season tickets as well.
    It forms the basis of the current Cons campaign in London.
    Yes, I think Labour are going to have a bit of a shock in the locals next year if there is another fare rise in January 2018. Someone in our WhatsApp group worked out that the only fares that have been frozen are bus and tram singles. Nobody gives a flying fuck about buses and trams. Most people who get those don't pay anyway I'd guess (kids and old people).
    Kids do pay, don't they, albeit at a lower fare? It's one of the iniquities of the system.
    Nope, free for kids under 16.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/zip-oyster-photocards
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 931
    "Sheffield, like Manchester are in the process of extending their tram network, as a regular user of both, I can say they are both dealing with more passengers each year."

    Indeed, in August I got rid of my car as I now commute on the newly opened Manchester Airport Metrolink tram line to work which was not possible a couple of years ago.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357
    ManchesterKurt said:

    The map ignores tram and light rail systems, as such Manchester will have much heavier rail usage, but the numbers will not appear in that map since they are Metrolink and not heavy train commuters.

    Trams are just inflexible buses taking up too much space. Why cities have an obsession with spending huge amounts on duplicating something that already works better can only be down to civic status symbols, I guess.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The form of public transport I don't use is the bus, I don't know why I'm so snobbish about them.

    Trains and trams is the way to go.

    Perhaps I'm just channelling my inner Thatcher when it comes to busses.

    Peasant wagon. That's what it's know as in London anyway.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    ManchesterKurt said:

    "Sheffield, like Manchester are in the process of extending their tram network, as a regular user of both, I can say they are both dealing with more passengers each year."

    Indeed, in August I got rid of my car as I now commute on the newly opened Manchester Airport Metrolink tram line to work which was not possible a couple of years ago.

    The only downside to the Metrolink expansion is that it makes easier for the residents of Oldham and (Tr)Ashton to get to Manchester. :lol:
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,357
    MaxPB said:

    david_herdson said:

    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
    True.

    But I had no idea that so few people outside of London used trains to get to work.

    On a personal note... I dislike the bulging maps and much prefer the dot based ones that aim to scale for population.
    Not only that they don't but also that they can't. I commute into Leeds and nearly all the trains are full by the time they arrive. Some could certainly be bigger but the scope to expand beyond 4-coach units is nil without a major investment upgrade: interim stations along the lines would need expanding and the terminal stations would need reconfiguring at a minimum. Congestion at the hub stations is also a limiting factor on running more frequent services.

    And then there's the simple fact that rail services are far more concentrated in London and the SE than in nearly all the rest of the country:
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....

    Season tickets as well.
    It forms the basis of the current Cons campaign in London.
    Yes, I think Labour are going to have a bit of a shock in the locals next year if there is another fare rise in January 2018. Someone in our WhatsApp group worked out that the only fares that have been frozen are bus and tram singles. Nobody gives a flying fuck about buses and trams. Most people who get those don't pay anyway I'd guess (kids and old people).
    Kids do pay, don't they, albeit at a lower fare? It's one of the iniquities of the system.
    Nope, free for kids under 16.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/zip-oyster-photocards
    Fare enough. Is that paid for by the London or national authorities?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The form of public transport I don't use is the bus, I don't know why I'm so snobbish about them.

    Trains and trams is the way to go.

    Perhaps I'm just channelling my inner Thatcher when it comes to busses.

    Peasant wagon. That's what it's know as in London anyway.
    We call them peasant wagons oop North as well.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 931
    "Trams are just inflexible buses taking up too much space. Why cities have an obsession with spending huge amounts on duplicating something that already works better can only be down to civic status symbols, I guess."

    Because they are massively successful at getting people out of their cars and stimulating economic activity probably. Wythenshawe (huge council estate in south Manchester) got a new tram line 2 years ago, it is now seeing some of the fastest house price rises in the country.

    I have got rid of my car as a result of a new tram line.

    Metrolink have converted heavy rail lines to trams, Altrincham and Bury 25 years ago and the Rochdale loop in the last 10 years, those conversations have driven huge increases in passengers on those lines.

    If you think a tram is akin to a bus I think it highlights how rarely you use either a bus or a tram to be honest.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    david_herdson said:

    MaxPB said:

    david_herdson said:

    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
    True.

    But I had no idea that so few people outside of London used trains to get to work.

    On a personal note... I dislike the bulging maps and much prefer the dot based ones that aim to scale for population.
    Not only that they don't but also that they can't. I commute into Leeds and nearly all the trains are full by the time they arrive. Some could certainly be bigger but the scope to expand beyond 4-coach units is nil without a major investment upgrade: interim stations along the lines would need expanding and the terminal stations would need reconfiguring at a minimum. Congestion at the hub stations is also a limiting factor on running more frequent services.

    And then there's the simple fact that rail services are far more concentrated in London and the SE than in nearly all the rest of the country:
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....

    Season tickets as well.
    It forms the basis of the current Cons campaign in London.
    Yes, I think Labour are going to have a bit of a shock in the locals next year if there is another fare rise in January 2018. Someone in our WhatsApp group worked out that the only fares that have been frozen are bus and tram singles. Nobody gives a flying fuck about buses and trams. Most people who get those don't pay anyway I'd guess (kids and old people).
    Kids do pay, don't they, albeit at a lower fare? It's one of the iniquities of the system.
    Nope, free for kids under 16.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/zip-oyster-photocards
    Fare enough. Is that paid for by the London or national authorities?
    GLA I think. The other stupidity is the freedom pass starting at 60, it's just a massive sop to older workers. My dad got his last year and still works full time. It has just saved him £1800 per year for his annual pass.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    MaxPB said:

    Peasant wagon. That's what it's know as in London anyway.

    Full of Brexit voters with whom you are so deeply in touch?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The form of public transport I don't use is the bus, I don't know why I'm so snobbish about them.

    Trains and trams is the way to go.

    Perhaps I'm just channelling my inner Thatcher when it comes to busses.

    Peasant wagon. That's what it's know as in London anyway.
    We call them peasant wagons oop North as well.
    Isn't that just everyday travel for northerners?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I'm a working class Northerner and I'm a daily train commuter

    ..who can well afford to pay the true cost of your season ticket on the train. suck it up buttercup.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,192
    Not only has my fare increased, but my train this morning was a Class 142 Pacer (aka Bendy-Bus) instead of the usual Class 150 Sprinter. Hopefully not a sign of things to come. Northern passengers may be subsidised, but we have to put up with crappy old rolling stock.

    And to add to Ms P's earlier comment - For 5p you could buy a 'Transfare' ticket which allowed you to travel bus-metro-bus or bus-train*-bus all on the one ticket.

    *Newcastle - Sunderland line.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    williamglenn said:

    MaxPB said:

    Peasant wagon. That's what it's know as in London anyway.

    Full of Brexit voters with whom you are so deeply in touch?
    Have you ever taken a bus in London? Brexit voters, on London buses. I'll add that to the list of your delusional ideas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,194
    After this fares freeze controversy Khan could be vulnerable if someone like Alan Sugar decided to run for Mayor in 2020
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The form of public transport I don't use is the bus, I don't know why I'm so snobbish about them.

    Trains and trams is the way to go.

    Perhaps I'm just channelling my inner Thatcher when it comes to busses.

    Peasant wagon. That's what it's know as in London anyway.
    We call them peasant wagons oop North as well.
    Isn't that just everyday travel for northerners?
    Nah, most Northerners travel by chariots pulled by whippets.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    felix said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I'm a working class Northerner and I'm a daily train commuter

    ..who can well afford to pay the true cost of your season ticket on the train. suck it up buttercup.
    If this was ever enacted, I'd start driving to work every day.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/first-class-allocation-on-trains-could-be-reduced-to-ease-overcrowding
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    david_herdson said:

    MaxPB said:

    david_herdson said:

    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
    True.

    But I had no idea that so few people outside of London used trains to get to work.

    On a personal note... I dislike the bulging maps and much prefer the dot based ones that aim to scale for population.
    Not only that they don't but also that they can't.

    And then there's the simple fact that rail services are far more concentrated in London and the SE than in nearly all the rest of the country:
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    I see Mr Khan's 'Fares Freeze' has come unstuck when its transpired that the daily caps on Oyster Cards are going up.....so 'Fares Freeze' for people who buy single tickets.....

    Season tickets as well.
    It forms the basis of the current Cons campaign in London.
    Yes, I think Labour are going to have a bit of a shock in the locals next year if there is another fare rise in January 2018. Someone in our WhatsApp group worked out that the only fares that have been frozen are bus and tram singles. Nobody gives a flying fuck about buses and trams. Most people who get those don't pay anyway I'd guess (kids and old people).
    Kids do pay, don't they, albeit at a lower fare? It's one of the iniquities of the system.
    Nope, free for kids under 16.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/zip-oyster-photocards
    Fare enough. Is that paid for by the London or national authorities?
    Which is where we have paradox. Outside the great Wen buslines are being cut back as no longer economic. I have had tales of this from relatives in Leics, Hants and IOWight over Christmas. Only a small minority of passengers on the bus to my suburb pay at all, the rest use passes. The bus company only gets 50p for these passengers, so 2 months ago reduced the services by 50% and are threatening to stop entirely.

    The paradox is that by the time that I am eligible to travel free, there will be no buses to travel on...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    HYUFD said:

    After this fares freeze controversy Khan could be vulnerable if someone like Alan Sugar decided to run for Mayor in 2020

    I think the Tories need to convince Karren Brady to stand down from West Ham sooner rather than later and run in 2020. The only issue might be the dodgy West Ham stadium deal which could hurt her a lot in 2020, a lot of people really don't like the idea of a profitable football club being gifted a £600m stadium.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,658
    edited January 2017
    Just for info, Nottingham's passenger figures for the tram system are 12.2 million journeys per year.

    Does that map include light rail and trams on rail?

    And have they finished the Edinburgh one, yet?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,000
    edmundintokyo said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Nabavi, and Miss Vance, whilst that would alter things, worth noting that there's still a fifth at the most using trains, but they're also subsidised by general taxation.

    When people argue for fares to be frozen, they're arguing for taxpayers who don't use trains to subsidise those who do. That's a legitimate position to hold, but the money has to come from somewhere.

    Indeed - and the usual headline 'UK train fares are three times (or some other outrageous multiple) of what they are in Europe' is usually comparing the most expensive fare - walk up, last minute, rather than the often much cheaper advanced fares.....I recently travelled from London to Birmingham, return, for £11.....I could have spent £176....
    One of the nice things about Japanese rail is that there's hardly any of this bullshit. Apart from a few weird tourist things they don't even have a different price for return trips. You just swipe the card, get on the train and go where you want to go, then swipe it again on the way out and that's how much it cost.
    You know, if we had a system like that I might actually use trains. The extortion of monies from those who have to make their trips at short notice or run the risk of the trip being cancelled means I drive nearly all the time.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    david_herdson said:

    ManchesterKurt said:

    The map ignores tram and light rail systems, as such Manchester will have much heavier rail usage, but the numbers will not appear in that map since they are Metrolink and not heavy train commuters.

    Trams are just inflexible buses taking up too much space. Why cities have an obsession with spending huge amounts on duplicating something that already works better can only be down to civic status symbols, I guess.
    The Metrolink trams mostly run on segregated lines, some converted heavy rail. On the converted lines patronage is 3 times what it was previously. The big reason is they allow a metro-like frequency without the high cost.

    If you have ever been to Manchester you'd know the last thing it needs is even more buses on the main routes.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Britain's EU ambassador has resigned... Probably punishment for saying negotiations could take 10 years.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    Since we're talking about busses, gives me an excuse to post this, from Beaver Busses.

    image
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    felix said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I'm a working class Northerner and I'm a daily train commuter

    ..who can well afford to pay the true cost of your season ticket on the train. suck it up buttercup.
    If this was ever enacted, I'd start driving to work every day.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/first-class-allocation-on-trains-could-be-reduced-to-ease-overcrowding
    One of the worst features of the m/c entitlement culture shown there by your utter and apparently shameless selfishness.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,754
    Is it true that travel card fares are not set by Sadiq? And if so... Arguably he has tried to keep his promise?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    williamglenn said:

    Britain's EU ambassador has resigned... Probably punishment for saying negotiations could take 10 years.

    I should have joined the Diplomatic Service, I would have made an excellent Ambassador.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,000
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    After this fares freeze controversy Khan could be vulnerable if someone like Alan Sugar decided to run for Mayor in 2020

    I think the Tories need to convince Karren Brady to stand down from West Ham sooner rather than later and run in 2020. The only issue might be the dodgy West Ham stadium deal which could hurt her a lot in 2020, a lot of people really don't like the idea of a profitable football club being gifted a £600m stadium.
    On the plus side their home performances are very poor.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    rkrkrk said:

    Is it true that travel card fares are not set by Sadiq? And if so... Arguably he has tried to keep his promise?

    He has control over all TFL fares, including zone based season tickets. He's frozen the cost of tickets nobody cares about.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    williamglenn said:

    Britain's EU ambassador has resigned... Probably punishment for saying negotiations could take 10 years.

    I should have joined the Diplomatic Service, I would have made an excellent Ambassador.
    Well if Samantha Power can be an Ambassador, anyone can.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    SandyRentool said:

    Not only has my fare increased, but my train this morning was a Class 142 Pacer (aka Bendy-Bus) instead of the usual Class 150 Sprinter. Hopefully not a sign of things to come. Northern passengers may be subsidised, but we have to put up with crappy old rolling stock.

    And to add to Ms P's earlier comment - For 5p you could buy a 'Transfare' ticket which allowed you to travel bus-metro-bus or bus-train*-bus all on the one ticket.

    *Newcastle - Sunderland line.

    Tyne&Wear PTE were outstanding - modern, on time very clean buses that went everywhere/safe/polite, the Metro was lovely - and no one abused it. No Smoking signs were observed without a single guard. The stations were spotless and any graffiti promptly removed.

    I last visited in 2007 and the Metro had gone right down hill - grubby, and unloved. The stations were the same and felt like passengers were unwelcome fare dodgers, especially the awkward football stadium style barriers. I was really rather sad.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,194
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    williamglenn said:

    Britain's EU ambassador has resigned... Probably punishment for saying negotiations could take 10 years.

    I should have joined the Diplomatic Service, I would have made an excellent Ambassador.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs7gAxsfK5U
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    After this fares freeze controversy Khan could be vulnerable if someone like Alan Sugar decided to run for Mayor in 2020

    I think the Tories need to convince Karren Brady to stand down from West Ham sooner rather than later and run in 2020. The only issue might be the dodgy West Ham stadium deal which could hurt her a lot in 2020, a lot of people really don't like the idea of a profitable football club being gifted a £600m stadium.
    Not going to happen, back in 2015 when there was talk of Sol Campbell running to be the Tory candidate for London Mayor, there was private polling undertaken, and it was found London football fans wouldn't vote for another team's player. I reckon the same would apply to Lady Brady.

    I reckon if Sol Campbell had been the Tory candidate, you'd have campaigned for Sadiq Khan.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    ManchesterKurt said:

    "Trams are just inflexible buses taking up too much space. Why cities have an obsession with spending huge amounts on duplicating something that already works better can only be down to civic status symbols, I guess"

    If you think a tram is akin to a bus I think it highlights how rarely you use either a bus or a tram to be honest.

    I take the bus into work most days in Manchester and the tram occasionally. The tram as an inflexible, more expensive bus seems a fine description to me. GMPTE should have put the tram money into building more dedicated bus roads instead - Ottawa has a good example of this sort of system.

    Manchester trams seem plagued by delays and people driving onto the tracks and getting stuck.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    *Leaver trigger warning*

    https://twitter.com/business/status/816267386139607040
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    Ah that this might explain my views about busses

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/816260360172896256
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    ManchesterKurt said:

    "True, though presently I understand Metrolink numbers are roughly half the local heavy rail patronage, so it would only add 50%."

    I may be wrong, but doubt the Manc heavy rail network carries anything like 70m passengers / year, on the whole the heavy rail services in and around Manc are awful, other than the London trains.

    I may be wrong too but that's the figure I remember. It's definitely not much smaller than that, Piccadilly alone is 25m. Either way the point is even Metrolink included total rail use is still much smaller than the South East.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PickardJE: Perhaps Donald Trump could think of a potential contender for Britain's new ambassador to the EU....?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    After this fares freeze controversy Khan could be vulnerable if someone like Alan Sugar decided to run for Mayor in 2020

    I think the Tories need to convince Karren Brady to stand down from West Ham sooner rather than later and run in 2020. The only issue might be the dodgy West Ham stadium deal which could hurt her a lot in 2020, a lot of people really don't like the idea of a profitable football club being gifted a £600m stadium.
    Not going to happen, back in 2015 when there was talk of Sol Campbell running to be the Tory candidate for London Mayor, there was private polling undertaken, and it was found London football fans wouldn't vote for another team's player. I reckon the same would apply to Lady Brady.

    I reckon if Sol Campbell had been the Tory candidate, you'd have campaigned for Sadiq Khan.
    Which is why she'd have to leave now and do something else high profile for a few years.

    On Judas Campbell, I probably would have. The idiot started up his campaign in Hackney as well iirc, lots of doors slammed in his face hopefully.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Ah that this might explain my views about busses

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/816260360172896256

    The preferred form of transport for Leavers?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    JonathanD said:

    ManchesterKurt said:

    "Trams are just inflexible buses taking up too much space. Why cities have an obsession with spending huge amounts on duplicating something that already works better can only be down to civic status symbols, I guess"

    If you think a tram is akin to a bus I think it highlights how rarely you use either a bus or a tram to be honest.

    I take the bus into work most days in Manchester and the tram occasionally. The tram as an inflexible, more expensive bus seems a fine description to me. GMPTE should have put the tram money into building more dedicated bus roads instead - Ottawa has a good example of this sort of system.

    Manchester trams seem plagued by delays and people driving onto the tracks and getting stuck.
    The biggest delays to Manchester trams is pedestrians walking onto the tram tracks, seems to be a real problem around Market Street.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    @PickardJE: Perhaps Donald Trump could think of a potential contender for Britain's new ambassador to the EU....?

    Farage as Trumps lapdog once more?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,874
    I'd take the bus if it was as quick and convenient as my car.

    It isn't though - couldn't give a hoot if it means people think I'm poor or whatnot.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,575
    edited January 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    rkrkrk said:

    This is a fantastic map

    While its a great map, what would be more meaningful would be a map scaled by population......which would paint a somewhat different picture.....

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/02/article-1217571-06A7BEE6000005DC-875_470x505.jpg
    True.

    But I had no idea that so few people outside of London used trains to get to work.

    On a personal note... I dislike the bulging maps and much prefer the dot based ones that aim to scale for population.
    They should be getting charged full fares instead of the rest of the country subsidising london as usual. What a bunch of blood suckers London and environs are.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,377
    williamglenn said:

    *Leaver trigger warning*

    https://twitter.com/business/status/816267386139607040

    If you knew even an ounce about the City then you'd realise why 20,000 is a nothing figure. It also reads like a press release from the mayor of Paris who has been desperately trying to talk up Paris vs Singapore and HK which are the real danger markets for London's dominance of finance. Paris is like the annoying fly in front of the alpha elephant that is London, Singapore and HK are two rival males who have teamed up to try and take down the alpha.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,020
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd take the bus if it was as quick and convenient as my car.

    It isn't though - couldn't give a hoot if it means people think I'm poor or whatnot.

    I reckon my issue about busses is the lack of seatbelts on them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,575
    edited January 2017
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Ah that this might explain my views about busses

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/816260360172896256

    Subsidies for rich t**** and even higher if London centric, it was ever thus. Yet they still cannot stop whining.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,754
    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Is it true that travel card fares are not set by Sadiq? And if so... Arguably he has tried to keep his promise?

    He has control over all TFL fares, including zone based season tickets. He's frozen the cost of tickets nobody cares about.
    Hmm... I'm reading that travelcards include non TFL services - and he doesn't have control over those.

    As to no one cares about the freeze... It seems that most people do not reach the travelcard limit - so will pay less?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MaxPB said:

    williamglenn said:

    *Leaver trigger warning*

    https://twitter.com/business/status/816267386139607040

    If you knew even an ounce about the City then you'd realise why 20,000 is a nothing figure. It also reads like a press release from the mayor of Paris who has been desperately trying to talk up Paris vs Singapore and HK which are the real danger markets for London's dominance of finance. Paris is like the annoying fly in front of the alpha elephant that is London, Singapore and HK are two rival males who have teamed up to try and take down the alpha.
    Yes, Switzerland is surely preferable for financial refugees from Brexitland.
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