2017 will be one long vampire scream from the liberal elite. That moment when Christopher Lee finally gets staked through the heart: this is how it’s going to sound all year as all those vested interests now swamped by the tide of history and crushed by fortune’s wheel — Remoaners, Davos Man, the Eurocrats, US Democrats, green activists, everyone on Quentin Letts’s Spectator list of the most annoying people, etc — rage, rage, rage against the dying of their light.
Is he channelling Sion Simon? This kind of stuff sounds more like the hubris of a political movement that is overreaching than coherent analysis.
I asked my father and mother why they voted leave they said immigration .They are both nearly 80.There is immigration in York but mainly Chinese students.They both read the daily mail I believe that had more influence than the effect of where they live.However York Harrogate and Leeds voted remain..I do not think the arguments regarding sovereignty had any cut through with the vast majority.Immigration won it for leave.
Doesn't polling suggest otherwise?
Do you think Xenophobes admit to being anti-foreigner ?
Yes.
Do you think non-xenophobes are really all just xenophobes?
I am thinking they really do which is quite odd. After all when a terrorist strikes we are constantly told by the same people they are not in any way representative of a certain religion and only a tiny minority thinks that way and takes it to extremes.
However this same approach does not ever apply if you happened to vote leave because as is shown daily on here and previously you are all apparently just tagged as xenophobic little Englanders. ( and Walesers I suppose as they voted out as well)
Leavers seem irked by my raising the £350 million a week for the NHS in the context of front page news about health crises. The trouble is that if you make preposterous promises, people have a habit of remembering them.
I don't think they were irked they merely pointed out that "We haven't left yet"
Mind you everyone is still waiting for the instant disasters prophesied by project fear for Day 1 after a leave vote. They are also remembered though rarely if ever mentioned now by Remainers
I think .
.................
No mention of project fear again then either? How unsurprising?
The basics of this are that Leave told a straight lie with forward effects. If you're telling me that rubbing the magic lamp isn't going to make my wishes come true for many years after you promised me that my wish would come true, I'm more likely to throw the lamp away than release the genie.
It is pointless even discussing this with you as you just wilfully refuse to accept any point but your own, refuse to accept the Remains lies in Project fear which also have not yet happened and that amongst other things ......in a nutshell .......is why people voted en mass to leave.
You want the genie to produce while you keep a cork in the spout. Well done!! this is taking utter hypocrisy to a whole new level.
Good day sir.
I will laugh so hard if the first Budget after we Leave actually does put £350m per week extra into the NHS...
It will have to deliver the fabled £350 million, partly as the voters of Leave are the ones most dependent on the NHS, and partly because the NHS is facing a grim future without substantial investment.
While the free marketeers would regard the collapse of the NHS to be a BOGOF special for Brexit, the voters are not likely to see it the same.
That bus slogan has the potential to be the #Edstone for the next election, though helpfully concise.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
Leavers seem irked by my raising the £350 million a week for the NHS in the context of front page news about health crises. The trouble is that if you make preposterous promises, people have a habit of remembering them.
I don't think they were irked they merely pointed out that "We haven't left yet"
Mind you everyone is still waiting for the instant disasters prophesied by project fear for Day 1 after a leave vote. They are also remembered though rarely if ever mentioned now by Remainers
I think .
.................
No mention of project fear again then either? How unsurprising?
The basics of this are that Leave told a straight lie with forward effects. If you're telling me that rubbing the magic lamp isn't going to make my wishes come true for many years after you promised me that my wish would come true, I'm more likely to throw the lamp away than release the genie.
It is pointless even discussing this with you as you just wilfully refuse to accept any point but your own, refuse to accept the Remains lies in Project fear which also have not yet happened and that amongst other things ......in a nutshell .......is why people voted en mass to leave.
You want the genie to produce while you keep a cork in the spout. Well done!! this is taking utter hypocrisy to a whole new level.
Good day sir.
I will laugh so hard if the first Budget after we Leave actually does put £350m per week extra into the NHS...
It will have to deliver the fabled £350 million, partly as the voters of Leave are the ones most dependent on the NHS, and partly because the NHS is facing a grim future without substantial investment.
While the free marketeers would regard the collapse of the NHS to be a BOGOF special for Brexit, the voters are not likely to see it the same.
That bus slogan has the potential to be the #Edstone for the next election, though helpfully concise.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
What bizarre logic. So by that argument any supporters of the Labour party are apologists for islamic extremism and Irish Republican terrorism, since prominent members of the party have voiced those views.... or maybe you are talking b*llocks ?
I asked my father and mother why they voted leave they said immigration .They are both nearly 80.There is immigration in York but mainly Chinese students.They both read the daily mail I believe that had more influence than the effect of where they live.However York Harrogate and Leeds voted remain..I do not think the arguments regarding sovereignty had any cut through with the vast majority.Immigration won it for leave.
Doesn't polling suggest otherwise?
Do you think Xenophobes admit to being anti-foreigner ?
Yes.
Do you think non-xenophobes are really all just xenophobes?
I am thinking they really do which is quite odd. After all when a terrorist strikes we are constantly told by the same people they are not in any way representative of a certain religion and only a tiny minority thinks that way and takes it to extremes.
However this same approach does not ever apply if you happened to vote leave because as is shown daily on here and previously you are all apparently just tagged as xenophobic little Englanders. ( and Walesers I suppose as they voted out as well)
Cherry picking at its very best.
I don't think that all Leavers are xenophobes. I do, however, think that far too many Leavers were entirely happy to pander to xenophobes in order to win the referendum and now are unhappy to be reminded of this disgraceful decision.
Leavers seem irked by my raising the £350 million a week for the NHS in the context of front page news about health crises. The trouble is that if you make preposterous promises, people have a habit of remembering them.
I don't think they were irked they merely pointed out that "We haven't left yet"
Mind you everyone is still waiting for the instant disasters prophesied by project fear for Day 1 after a leave vote. They are also remembered though rarely if ever mentioned now by Remainers
I think .
.................
No mention of project fear again then either? How unsurprising?
The basics of this are that Leave told a straight lie with forward effects. If you're telling me that rubbing the magic lamp isn't going to make my wishes come true for many years after you promised me that my wish would come true, I'm more likely to throw the lamp away than release the genie.
It is pointless even discussing this with you as you just wilfully refuse to accept any point but your own, refuse to accept the Remains lies in Project fear which also have not yet happened and that amongst other things ......in a nutshell .......is why people voted en mass to leave.
You want the genie to produce while you keep a cork in the spout. Well done!! this is taking utter hypocrisy to a whole new level.
Good day sir.
I will laugh so hard if the first Budget after we Leave actually does put £350m per week extra into the NHS...
It will have to deliver the fabled £350 million, partly as the voters of Leave are the ones most dependent on the NHS, and partly because the NHS is facing a grim future without substantial investment.
While the free marketeers would regard the collapse of the NHS to be a BOGOF special for Brexit, the voters are not likely to see it the same.
That bus slogan has the potential to be the #Edstone for the next election, though helpfully concise.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget - hundreds of thousands dead, and the fall-out reverberates around us now re ISIS - who appear to be another CIA Mujahideen.
Leavers seem irked by my raising the £350 million a week for the NHS in the context of front page news about health crises. The trouble is that if you make preposterous promises, people have a habit of remembering them.
I don't think they were irked they merely pointed out that "We haven't left yet"
Mind you everyone is still waiting for the instant disasters prophesied by project fear for Day 1 after a leave vote. They are also remembered though rarely if ever mentioned now by Remainers
I think .
.................
No mention of project fear again then either? How unsurprising?
The basics of this are that Leave told a straight lie with forward effects. If you're telling me that rubbing the magic lamp isn't going to make my wishes come true for many years after you promised me that my wish would come true, I'm more likely to throw the lamp away than release the genie.
It is pointless even discussing this with you as you just wilfully refuse to accept any point but your own, refuse to accept the Remains lies in Project fear which also have not yet happened and that amongst other things ......in a nutshell .......is why people voted en mass to leave.
You want the genie to produce while you keep a cork in the spout. Well done!! this is taking utter hypocrisy to a whole new level.
Good day sir.
I will laugh so hard if the first Budget after we Leave actually does put £350m per week extra into the NHS...
It will have to deliver the fabled £350 million, partly as the voters of Leave are the ones most dependent on the NHS, and partly because the NHS is facing a grim future without substantial investment.
While the free marketeers would regard the collapse of the NHS to be a BOGOF special for Brexit, the voters are not likely to see it the same.
That bus slogan has the potential to be the #Edstone for the next election, though helpfully concise.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
What bizarre logic. So by that argument any supporters of the Labour party are apologists for islamic extremism and Irish Republican terrorism, since prominent members of the party have voiced those views.... or maybe you are talking b*llocks ?
Vote Leave. Take Control. Evade Any Responsibility.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
What bizarre logic. So by that argument any supporters of the Labour party are apologists for islamic extremism and Irish Republican terrorism, since prominent members of the party have voiced those views.... or maybe you are talking b*llocks ?
Government needs people to run it. If you want to rule out prominent members of the Labour party you also need to rule out prominent members of the Leave campaign because they have no integrity.
Leavers seem irked by my raising the £350 million a week for the NHS in the context of front page news about health crises. The trouble is that if you make preposterous promises, people have a habit of remembering them.
I don't think they were irked they merely pointed out that "We haven't left yet"
Mind you everyone is still waiting for the instant disasters prophesied by project fear for Day 1 after a leave vote. They are also remembered though rarely if ever mentioned now by Remainers
I think .
.................
No mention of project fear again then either? How unsurprising?
The basics of this are that Leave told a straight lie with forward effects. If you're telling me that rubbing the magic lamp isn't going to make my wishes come true for many years after you promised me that my wish would come true, I'm more likely to throw the lamp away than release the genie.
It is pointless even discussing this with you as you just wilfully refuse to accept any point but your own, refuse to accept the Remains lies in Project fear which also have not yet happened and that amongst other things ......in a nutshell .......is why people voted en mass to leave.
You want the genie to produce while you keep a cork in the spout. Well done!! this is taking utter hypocrisy to a whole new level.
Good day sir.
I will laugh so hard if the first Budget after we Leave actually does put £350m per week extra into the NHS...
It will have to deliver the fabled £350 million, partly as the voters of Leave are the ones most dependent on the NHS, and partly because the NHS is facing a grim future without substantial investment.
While the free marketeers would regard the collapse of the NHS to be a BOGOF special for Brexit, the voters are not likely to see it the same.
That bus slogan has the potential to be the #Edstone for the next election, though helpfully concise.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
And will Skynet send you back in time to a date when re-telling it will make an actual difference?
First, the £350m 'promise' cannot (yet) be a lie as Brexit has not happened. Only after Brexit will we be able to identify the post-truth 'truth'!
The lie was that we send £350m to Brussels that could otherwise be spent here. That was provably a lie at the time. If post-Brexit we do spend £350m a week more on the NHS it will be at the expense of cutting other domestic spending, or adding to the national debt, not from some kind of Brexit dividend that doesn't exist.
First, the £350m 'promise' cannot (yet) be a lie as Brexit has not happened. Only after Brexit will we be able to identify the post-truth 'truth'!
The lie was that we send £350m to Brussels that could otherwise be spent here. That was provably a lie at the time. If post-Brexit we do spend £350m a week more on the NHS it will be at the expense of cutting other domestic spending, or adding to the national debt, not from some kind of Brexit dividend that doesn't exist.
You missed raising taxes. Far less likely under the Tories, but still an option.
Leavers seem irked by my raising the £350 million a week for the NHS in the context of front page news about health crises. The trouble is that if you make preposterous promises, people have a habit of remembering them.
I don't think they were irked they merely pointed out that "We haven't left yet"
Mind you everyone is still waiting for the instant disasters prophesied by project fear for Day 1 after a leave vote. They are also remembered though rarely if ever mentioned now by Remainers
I think .
.................
No mention of project fear again then either? How unsurprising?
The basics of this are that Leave told a straight lie with forward effects. If you're telling me that rubbing the magic lamp isn't going to make my wishes come true for many years after you promised me that my wish would come true, I'm more likely to throw the lamp away than release the genie.
It is pointless even discussing this with you as you just wilfully refuse to accept any point but your own, refuse to accept the Remains lies in Project fear which also have not yet happened and that amongst other things ......in a nutshell .......is why people voted en mass to leave.
You want the genie to produce while you keep a cork in the spout. Well done!! this is taking utter hypocrisy to a whole new level.
Good day sir.
I will laugh so hard if the first Budget after we Leave actually does put £350m per week extra into the NHS...
It will have to deliver the fabled £350 million, partly as the voters of Leave are the ones most dependent on the NHS, and partly because the NHS is facing a grim future without substantial investment.
While the free marketeers would regard the collapse of the NHS to be a BOGOF special for Brexit, the voters are not likely to see it the same.
That bus slogan has the potential to be the #Edstone for the next election, though helpfully concise.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
It wasn't even the biggest lie of the referendum campaign.
Putin's chess is most entertaining - I've just looked at Times comments under Obama story and most are saying he's acting like a petulant child and trying to cause trouble for his successor/after doing nothing himself for years. I was quite surprised - I totally agree.
When was the last time such expulsions got the 'turned the other cheek' response?
No mention of project fear again then either? How unsurprising?
The basics of this are that Leave told a straight lie with forward effects. If you're telling me that rubbing the magic lamp isn't going to make my wishes come true for many years after you promised me that my wish would come true, I'm more likely to throw the lamp away than release the genie.
It is pointless even discussing this with you as you just wilfully refuse to accept any point but your own, refuse to accept the Remains lies in Project fear which also have not yet happened and that amongst other things ......in a nutshell .......is why people voted en mass to leave.
You want the genie to produce while you keep a cork in the spout. Well done!! this is taking utter hypocrisy to a whole new level.
Good day sir.
I will laugh so hard if the first Budget after we Leave actually does put £350m per week extra into the NHS...
It will have to deliver the fabled £350 million, partly as the voters of Leave are the ones most dependent on the NHS, and partly because the NHS is facing a grim future without substantial investment.
While the free marketeers would regard the collapse of the NHS to be a BOGOF special for Brexit, the voters are not likely to see it the same.
That bus slogan has the potential to be the #Edstone for the next election, though helpfully concise.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget - hundreds of thousands dead, and the fall-out reverberates around us now re ISIS - who appear to be another CIA Mujahideen.
While many (including me) would list that as the biggest lie in post-WWII British political history - up there with only Eden's (very similar) 'There was not foreknowledge that Israel would attack Egypt. There was not.' - it wasn't an electoral lie.
On that score, Clegg's tuition fees has to rank pretty highly (although whether that was a lie as such - something said which was known to be untrue - is open to question. Then again, the same could be said of the £350m for the NHS.
To move off the EU and keep slightly on topic, I wonder if there's a nice counterfactual for someone to write over on alternatehistory.com.
Churchill is forced to resign in early 1953 under public indignation following the Smog which disrupted Christmas and caused thousands of deaths. A General Election is called for late February 1953 and Attlee is returned to office with a majority of 20.
Attlee retires in 1955 and Gaitskell becomes Prime Minister. My problem is working out how a Gaitskell Government would have handled Suez. Eden was very pro-intervention (with the French) and I suspect Gaitskell would have preferred to keep the Americans and the UN on side but while intervention destroyed Eden politically, what would no intervention look like - would it be seen as renewed appeasement ?
I just wonder whether even if the Labour Government didn't intervene the political cost would have been heavy and the Conservatives might have won under Butler in 1957 or 1958.
To go back off topic, a Gaitskell-led Government wouldn't have tried to join or be involved with the nascent EEC in the mid 50s.
There is the belief that it was the distraction of Suez which allowed the Russians to put down the Hungarian uprising without fear of western intervention. Could perhaps Churchill's resignation and Gaitskell's eventual succession have led to an early direct confrontation between the US and USSR?
Not to mention the rumoured KGB assassination of Gaitskell to ease Harold Wilson into place. (Whether said rumours were ever believed outside the small cabal that saw snow on Wilson's boots is another matter entirely.)
Wait! We can combine this with Brexit.
Nigel Lawson claims he may have killed Gaitskell by arguing in favour of Europe.
[Gaitskell] was passionately opposed, and I [Lawson] was in favour of it. He became more and more exercised, his face got redder and redder, and I was afraid he was about to burst a blood vessel. Then, a few days later, and still only in his fifties, he dropped down dead. I was overcome with guilt, fearing that I may have precipitated his untimely end. Perhaps my present stance on the EU is some kind of penance.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
Biggest lie ever? I can think of many much bigger lies.
What about Tony Blair's pledge before elected of ensuring an "ethical foreign policy"? You think he honoured that? Tony Blair's pledge before 1997 of "no tuition fees" then upon getting elected in 1997 he introduced tuition fees? Tony Blair's pledge before 2001 of "no top up tuition fees" as they were then called? Then upon getting elected in 2001 topping up tuition fees to £3000? Deja vu. Tony Blair's pledge before 2005 of a referendum on the European Constitution. Subsequently rebranded the Lisbon Treaty and ratified without a referendum by Brown. Nick Clegg's pledge before 2010 of "no tuition fees" then upon getting elected immediately tripling tuition fees to £9000? Bit of deja vu all over again here.
Or how about Gordon Brown's repeated pledge in 1997, 2001, 2005 and other times to "abolish boom and bust"? Followed by the very biggest bust since the Great Depression of 1929? Or there was Gordon Brown's pledge of "prudence" only to have maxed out the national credit cards prior to the bust leading to the biggest debt crisis we've ever seen in the modern era?
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget - hundreds of thousands dead, and the fall-out reverberates around us now re ISIS - who appear to be another CIA Mujahideen.
Surely the biggest lie in UK political history is "24 hours to save the NHS"? That is about the whole existence of the NHS, whereas talk of an extra 350m a week in several years time (where the weekly budget is currently 2.2bn) is just tinkering. Inflation will help, and the figure will almost certainly be justifiable post-brexit. If Corbyn's successor wants to whine at pmqs that it is the wrong sort of 350m, good luck to him.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
What bizarre logic. So by that argument any supporters of the Labour party are apologists for islamic extremism and Irish Republican terrorism, since prominent members of the party have voiced those views.... or maybe you are talking b*llocks ?
Government needs people to run it. If you want to rule out prominent members of the Labour party you also need to rule out prominent members of the Leave campaign because they have no integrity.
That was rather my point. You feel able to tar all leavers with the views of a few people leading the campaign ("their supporters, therefore, are liars"), and yet you are rather shy about tarring all Labour supporters because of the views of a few people leaving that campaign ("their supports are all apologists of republican terrorism"), I wonder why ?
First, the £350m 'promise' cannot (yet) be a lie as Brexit has not happened. Only after Brexit will we be able to identify the post-truth 'truth'!
The lie was that we send £350m to Brussels that could otherwise be spent here. That was provably a lie at the time. If post-Brexit we do spend £350m a week more on the NHS it will be at the expense of cutting other domestic spending, or adding to the national debt, not from some kind of Brexit dividend that doesn't exist.
As was made quite clear many times at the time of the referendum by the Remain campaign. So either the public believed Remain and it had no effect, or the Remain campaign was such a bunch of liars as well that the public had already stopped listening to them. Take your pick.
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
What bizarre logic. So by that argument any supporters of the Labour party are apologists for islamic extremism and Irish Republican terrorism, since prominent members of the party have voiced those views.... or maybe you are talking b*llocks ?
Government needs people to run it. If you want to rule out prominent members of the Labour party you also need to rule out prominent members of the Leave campaign because they have no integrity.
That was rather my point. You feel able to tar all leavers with the views of a few people leading the campaign ("their supporters, therefore, are liars"), and yet you are rather shy about tarring all Labour supporters because of the views of a few people leaving that campaign ("their supports are all apologists of republican terrorism"), I wonder why ?
I'm not commenting on their supporters at all - only the leading players. Anyone who was on the board of a Leave campaign group pumping out lies can justifiably be called a liar. Even in victory they're still at it - you can find a list of the latest guilty parties here: https://www.changebritain.org/about/
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
The LibDems had an opt-out, negotiated as part of the coalition, but declined to use it.
"Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget ..."
Absolutely, Miss Plato, it was inconceivable to me that the Prime Minister would deceive Parliament and the Country about such an important matter as going to war.
You take your support where you can find it. There are saints and sinners among voters on either side.
There's a big difference between taking your support where you find it and actively seeking it out.
Until Leave come to terms with the way in which they won, this country is in for a grim time.
Actually no. A few crying metropolitan blowhards and their friends in the media are in for a grim time, most of the country has got on with its life. Even the politically obsessed on here are starting to find the petulant foot stamping of a few remain ultras a trifle embarrassing.
I voted B because it looks a more modern cover and presumably that style is considered more enticing to prospective purchasers.
But @Morris_Dancer do please check your results are appearing as they should. When I voted (after 1200) it showed me the results & claimed that 100% (3) had voted B.
You take your support where you can find it. There are saints and sinners among voters on either side.
There's a big difference between taking your support where you find it and actively seeking it out.
Until Leave come to terms with the way in which they won, this country is in for a grim time.
The problem is that you appear to be obsessed with you own interpretation of the facts
There is a serious chance that your inflexible and possibly minority view and interpretation is preventing your normally open, sharp and questioning mind from seeing the far more varied and less rigid interpretations that 90% of the population have adopted.
In my world I only know one person who gets anywhere near to sharing your dogmatic intransigence.
First, the £350m 'promise' cannot (yet) be a lie as Brexit has not happened. Only after Brexit will we be able to identify the post-truth 'truth'!
The point was whether it was acceptable to present a gross figure as the actual figure. I cleaved to the view that the net figure was more truthful - as did Farage, oddly enough. Others disagreed.
Second, is it acceptable to call posters liars? Does Smithson censorship (ie ; 'remoaners') only work in one direction?
As I pointed out at the time, OGH is not actually doing any censoring. He is exhorting posters to stop using slurs, but that's not the same thing. Until he decides to ban people and delete posts, he is not actually censoring. I think he's wasting his time appealing to people's better natures, but it's his site not mine.
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
If he didnt have it as a redline in his coalition negotiations he was a fool. If he did have it in as a red line in his negotiations, and then let it pass anyway without protest he was doubly a fool.
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
No he agreed to it as part of the cabinet negotiations and then they actually trooped through the lobby to go in favour of it they didn't even abstain. Nick Clegg could have said in the negotiations "no we made this commitment, we will compromise on our pledge for abolishing fees and just not touch them and leave them as they are" but they went into negotiations pledging abolition and came out with a fait accompli of having agreed to triple them. What is that if not the biggest whopper of a lie?
Clegg knew when he made the pledge the only way he'd get into office was as junior partner in a coalition too.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
What bizarre logic. So by that argument any supporters of the Labour party are apologists for islamic extremism and Irish Republican terrorism, since prominent members of the party have voiced those views.... or maybe you are talking b*llocks ?
Government needs people to run it. If you want to rule out prominent members of the Labour party you also need to rule out prominent members of the Leave campaign because they have no integrity.
That was rather my point. You feel able to tar all leavers with the views of a few people leading the campaign ("their supporters, therefore, are liars"), and yet you are rather shy about tarring all Labour supporters because of the views of a few people leaving that campaign ("their supports are all apologists of republican terrorism"), I wonder why ?
I'm not commenting on their supporters at all - only the leading players. Anyone who was on the board of a Leave campaign group pumping out lies can justifiably be called a liar. Even in victory they're still at it - you can find a list of the latest guilty parties here: https://www.changebritain.org/about/
Happy no one there is running the country, or even a cabinet minister, so we appear to be safe
All that from searching "350 million nhs fact check". From memory, BBC radios 2 and 4 hammered the point even harder than these links do. The claim that it changed the outcome is just laughable.
Anyway, I thought all Leave voters (including the many black/asian ones) were rabid, hate-filled racists who were going to vote Leave on that basis anyway. So how can the NHS claim be said to have made a difference to anything?
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
What bizarre logic. So by that argument any supporters of the Labour party are apologists for islamic extremism and Irish Republican terrorism, since prominent members of the party have voiced those views.... or maybe you are talking b*llocks ?
Government needs people to run it. If you want to rule out prominent members of the Labour party you also need to rule out prominent members of the Leave campaign because they have no integrity.
That was rather my point. You feel able to tar all leavers with the views of a few people leading the campaign ("their supporters, therefore, are liars"), and yet you are rather shy about tarring all Labour supporters because of the views of a few people leaving that campaign ("their supports are all apologists of republican terrorism"), I wonder why ?
I'm not commenting on their supporters at all - only the leading players. Anyone who was on the board of a Leave campaign group pumping out lies can justifiably be called a liar. Even in victory they're still at it - you can find a list of the latest guilty parties here: https://www.changebritain.org/about/
Happy no one there is running the country, or even a cabinet minister, so we appear to be safe
Although it's amusing that Lord (David) Owen is listed simply as "former Labour Foreign Secretary" with no reference to the SDP for which I've always found him to be far more famous for.
I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again.
In 22 days time the pumps will turn on for US shale gas and half of 'big oil' senior management will be in the administration, I wouldn't bet on prices staying high for long.
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
Ha Ha Ha , the lying toad just broke his great public pledge and sold his principles for money and a car to the trough.
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget - hundreds of thousands dead, and the fall-out reverberates around us now re ISIS - who appear to be another CIA Mujahideen.
Suez?
In terms of the respective effects, Iraq was far more damaging than Suez.
Incidentally, "Skynet" is not just the name of the fictional AI, but is also the name of a real-life set of British military satellites, and the latter name predates the former by at least ten years.
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
Remind me again who the Secretary of State was that introduced the rise?
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget - hundreds of thousands dead, and the fall-out reverberates around us now re ISIS - who appear to be another CIA Mujahideen.
Suez?
In terms of the respective effects, Iraq was far more damaging than Suez.
Suez was a policy failure because it failed. Iraq was a policy failure because it succeeded.
Incidentally, "Skynet" is not just the name of the fictional AI, but is also the name of a real-life set of British military satellites, and the latter name predates the former by at least ten years.
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget - hundreds of thousands dead, and the fall-out reverberates around us now re ISIS - who appear to be another CIA Mujahideen.
Suez?
In terms of the respective effects, Iraq was far more damaging than Suez.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
Biggest lie ever? I can think of many much bigger lies.
What about Tony Blair's pledge before elected of ensuring an "ethical foreign policy"? You think he honoured that? Tony Blair's pledge before 1997 of "no tuition fees" then upon getting elected in 1997 he introduced tuition fees? Tony Blair's pledge before 2001 of "no top up tuition fees" as they were then called? Then upon getting elected in 2001 topping up tuition fees to £3000? Deja vu. Tony Blair's pledge before 2005 of a referendum on the European Constitution. Subsequently rebranded the Lisbon Treaty and ratified without a referendum by Brown. Nick Clegg's pledge before 2010 of "no tuition fees" then upon getting elected immediately tripling tuition fees to £9000? Bit of deja vu all over again here.
Or how about Gordon Brown's repeated pledge in 1997, 2001, 2005 and other times to "abolish boom and bust"? Followed by the very biggest bust since the Great Depression of 1929? Or there was Gordon Brown's pledge of "prudence" only to have maxed out the national credit cards prior to the bust leading to the biggest debt crisis we've ever seen in the modern era?
That's just off the top of my head.
That is not quite right. On Labour and tuition fees, the 1997 manifesto talked about repayable loans and then referenced the Dearing report which advocated fees, so it looks like that was a promise kept rather than a political lie. The 1997 manifestos for all parties can be read at: http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/man/man97.htm
An ethical foreign policy? Depends on your ethics. Remember that before Iraq, Britain under Labour had intervened in several foreign conflicts, including Kosovo, Afghanistan and Sierra Leone. See John Kaempfer's book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blairs-Wars-John-Kampfner/dp/0743248309
The point about Blair -- often missed by his critics -- is that he did put the controversial stuff in the manifesto, if only for the cynical reason that few voters would ever read it but the whips could use it to pressure recalcitrant backbenchers.
I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again.
In 22 days time the pumps will turn on for US shale gas and half of 'big oil' senior management will be in the administration, I wouldn't bet on prices staying high for long.
Isn't it in the interests of "'big oil' senior management" to have high oil prices? Low oil prices hurts "big oil".
Incidentally, "Skynet" is not just the name of the fictional AI, but is also the name of a real-life set of British military satellites, and the latter name predates the former by at least ten years.
Tangentially and OT, I was thinking about guns in films the other day while watching Inception. Hollywood is massively right-on about being anti-Republican, but the worst single thing about Republicans is the NRA and gun controls. Hollywood "Action" films are basically gun films. Inception is about stuff happening in four different depths of dream world, and in real life, and in each one of all 5 levels the plot depends on people shooting each other with pistols and ARs - not dreamy, strange variants on guns which wouldn't work in the real world, but the sort of stuff you can go out and buy to shoot your classmates with. And when people are walking about with automatic weapons, the weapons themselves are what the camera looks at. Same with the Matrix, same with Terminator, same with everything. Just like real life except that, weirdly, automatic weapons are virtually harmless as against hand guns wielded by the hero. The kid-let-loose-in-toyshop armoury scenes in T2 and the Matrix really spell it out: guns are the best toys in the world. It strikes me that if those scenes weren't there it would be worth $100ms to the NRA and firearms industry to put them in there; but right-on Hollywood does it for them, for free.
Alastair, the time to raise the argument about £350m for the NHS being a lie was during the referendum campaign.
What's that - you did? But you weren't believed? Now why would that be I wonder. Nothing to do with the rest of the Remain campaign being bogged down in lies and hyperbole of its own I'm sure.
We get it. Your Beautiful People and their Beautiful Minds lost out to a bunch scuzzy old thickoes with expanded waistlines and narrow minds. We've been getting that since June. Every conceivable opportunity to stick your hand-made loafers into the underbelly of the Leave voters has been taken. We get it. You're in pain yourself, so it' OK for you to lash out. No, you couldn't make a convincing argument at the time, because these Leavers were just too damn impervious to your perfectly crafted logic, too stupid to see nuance, too hate filled to see your carpet-bombing was just love-bombing, honestly. Therefore you have a burning need to keep re-running the Referendum in perpetuity. In homage to the way your beloved EU treats democracy. Re-run it often enough, and they'll get it right one day. Except, no, they won't. Because they're thickoes. As you keep telling us.
Suggestion. You have a little under 40 hours of 2016 to get it out your system. But then, please, for the sake of this site - knock off the Remain mono-mania in 2017. Or I will have to resort to the lowest blow of all against your ego.
And tell you you're just fucking boring. You make the site boring. You are that Faragista with his own pewter tankard hanging from a beam above the bar, giving forth to no-one in particular about your views on the EU.
There was a time you were better than that. I hope you refind your way next year.
I find the psychology of Leavers fascinating. They want their lies to be consequence free. They want their race baiting to be forgotten. But this isn't a game of cards where we shuffle the pack and move on to the next hand. The cards have memory.
For the next few years just about everything is going to be about Brexit. So the referendum campaign is going to be relevant for years. The lies, the pandering to xenophobia, that stuff.
So no, it won't be left behind. Long after those Leavers who thought leaving would be fun find the reality of it boring and frightening, Brexit will be dominating political conversation.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
Alastair, the time to raise the argument about £350m for the NHS being a lie was during the referendum campaign.
What's that - you did? But you weren't believed? Now why would that be I wonder. Nothing to do with the rest of the Remain campaign being bogged down in lies and hyperbole of its own I'm sure.
We get it. Your Beautiful People and their Beautiful Minds lost out to a bunch scuzzy old thickoes with expanded waistlines and narrow minds. We've been getting that since June. Every conceivable opportunity to stick your hand-made loafers into the underbelly of the Leave voters has been taken. We get it. You're in pain yourself, so it' OK for you to lash out. No, you couldn't make a convincing argument at the time, because these Leavers were just too damn impervious to your perfectly crafted logic, too stupid to see nuance, too hate filled to see your carpet-bombing was just love-bombing, honestly. Therefore you have a burning need to keep re-running the Referendum in perpetuity. In homage to the way your beloved EU treats democracy. Re-run it often enough, and they'll get it right one day. Except, no, they won't. Because they're thickoes. As you keep telling us.
Suggestion. You have a little under 40 hours of 2016 to get it out your system. But then, please, for the sake of this site - knock off the Remain mono-mania in 2017. Or I will have to resort to the lowest blow of all against your ego.
And tell you you're just fucking boring. You make the site boring. You are that Faragista with his own pewter tankard hanging from a beam above the bar, giving forth to no-one in particular about your views on the EU.
There was a time you were better than that. I hope you refind your way next year.
I find the psychology of Leavers fascinating. They want their lies to be consequence free. They want their race baiting to be forgotten. But this isn't a game of cards where we shuffle the pack and move on to the next hand. The cards have memory.
For the next few years just about everything is going to be about Brexit. So the referendum campaign is going to be relevant for years. The lies, the pandering to xenophobia, that stuff.
So no, it won't be left behind. Long after those Leavers who thought leaving would be fun find the reality of it boring and frightening, Brexit will be dominating political conversation.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
And what do you think might happen if Miller, the Lib Dems et al succeed in overturning the referendum result?
I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again.
In 22 days time the pumps will turn on for US shale gas and half of 'big oil' senior management will be in the administration, I wouldn't bet on prices staying high for long.
Isn't it in the interests of "'big oil' senior management" to have high oil prices? Low oil prices hurts "big oil".
People buying Russian or Saudi oil rather than US oil hurts it more I would have thought ?
"I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again."
Short of a major war in the Middle East, I very much doubt we will see oil anywhere near $100 again in our lifetime, Mr. G. The Septic "frackers" have slashed their costs of production, have huge reserves to tap into and are very nimble in getting new wells going. As the price rises so more of them will pile-in thus increasing production and keeping costs down.
Deep sea oil is going to be priced out, I suspect. The costs of exploration and extraction are just too great. Scotland's oil is a declining asset already well past its peak.
Incidentally, "Skynet" is not just the name of the fictional AI, but is also the name of a real-life set of British military satellites, and the latter name predates the former by at least ten years.
"I find the psychology of Leavers fascinating. They want their lies to be consequence free. They want their race baiting to be forgotten. But this isn't a game of cards where we shuffle the pack and move on to the next hand. The cards have memory."
Unusual to see such a blatant witch-hunt proposed outside Africa these days. As it is seriously unlawful for anyone to prove to you which way they voted, you'll need a talented witch-finder to sniff them out. Unless you think that all those, and only those, who fly flags of St George during soccer tournaments are to blame.
Tangentially and OT, I was thinking about guns in films the other day while watching Inception. Hollywood is massively right-on about being anti-Republican, but the worst single thing about Republicans is the NRA and gun controls. Hollywood "Action" films are basically gun films. Inception is about stuff happening in four different depths of dream world, and in real life, and in each one of all 5 levels the plot depends on people shooting each other with pistols and ARs - not dreamy, strange variants on guns which wouldn't work in the real world, but the sort of stuff you can go out and buy to shoot your classmates with. And when people are walking about with automatic weapons, the weapons themselves are what the camera looks at. Same with the Matrix, same with Terminator, same with everything. Just like real life except that, weirdly, automatic weapons are virtually harmless as against hand guns wielded by the hero. The kid-let-loose-in-toyshop armoury scenes in T2 and the Matrix really spell it out: guns are the best toys in the world. It strikes me that if those scenes weren't there it would be worth $100ms to the NRA and firearms industry to put them in there; but right-on Hollywood does it for them, for free.
Alastair, the time to raise the argument about £350m for the NHS being a lie was during the referendum campaign.
What's that - you did? But you weren't believed? Now why would that be I We get it. Your Beautiful People and their Beautiful Minds lost out to a bunch scuzzy old thickoes with expanded waistlines and narrow minds. We've been getting that since June. Every conceivable opportunity to stick your hand-maden. We get it. You're in pain yourself, so it' OK for you to lash out. No, you couldn't make a convincing argument at the time, because these Leavers were just too damn impervious to your perfectly crafted logic, too stupid to see nuance, too hate filled to see your carpet-bombing was just love-bombing, honestly. Therefore you have a burning need to keep re-running the Referendum in perpetuity. In homage to the way your beloved EU treats democracy. Re-run it often enough, and they'll get it right one day. Except, no, they won't. Because they're thickoes. As you keep telling us.
Suggestion. You have a little under 40 hours of 2016 to get it out your system. But then, please, for the sake of this site - knock off the Remain mono-mania in 2017. Or I will have to resort to the lowest blow of all against your ego.
And tell you you're just fucking boring. You make the site boring. You are that Faragista with his own pewter tankard hanging from a beam above the bar, giving forth to no-one in particular about your views on the EU.
There was a time you were better than that. I hope you refind your way next year.
I find the psychology of Leavers fascinating. They want their lies to be consequence free. They want their race baiting to be forgotten. But this isn't a game of cards where we shuffle the pack and move on to the next hand. The cards have memory.
For the next few years just about everything is going to be about Brexit. So the referendum campaign is going to be relevant for years. The lies, the pandering to xenophobia, that stuff.
So no, it won't be left behind. Long after those Leavers who thought leaving would be fun find the reality of it boring and frightening, Brexit will be dominating political conversation.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
And what do you think might happen if Miller, the Lib Dems et al succeed in overturning the referendum result?
That wasn't what her case was about. Leavers already getting bored of parliamentary democracy I see.
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget - hundreds of thousands dead, and the fall-out reverberates around us now re ISIS - who appear to be another CIA Mujahideen.
Suez?
In terms of the respective effects, Iraq was far more damaging than Suez.
Suez was a policy failure because it failed. Iraq was a policy failure because it succeeded.
I'm not sure the nation-building thing worked in Iraq.
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
Remind me again who the Secretary of State was that introduced the rise?
Since there've been no takers, an easier question then: which party supplied the Secretary of State who introduced the tuition fees rise under the coalition government?
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
Remind me again who the Secretary of State was that introduced the rise?
Since there've been no takers, an easier question then: which party supplied the Secretary of State who introduced the tuition fees rise under the coalition government?
Alastair, the time to raise the argument about £350m for the NHS being a lie was during the referendum campaign.
What's that - you did? But you weren't believed? Now why would that be I We get it. Your Beautiful People and their Beautiful Minds lost out to a bunch scuzzy old thickoes with expanded waistlines and narrow minds. We've been getting that since June. Every conceivable opportunity to stick your hand-maden. We get it. You're in pain yourself, so it' OK for you to lash out. No, you couldn't make a convincing argument at the time, because these Leavers were just too damn impervious to your perfectly crafted logic, too stupid to see nuance, too hate filled to see your carpet-bombing was just love-bombing, honestly. Therefore you have a burning need to keep re-running the Referendum in perpetuity. In homage to the way your beloved EU treats democracy. Re-run it often enough, and they'll get it right one day. Except, no, they won't. Because they're thickoes. As you keep telling us.
Suggestion. You have a little under 40 hours of 2016 to get it out your system. But then, please, for the sake of this site - knock off the Remain mono-mania in 2017. Or I will have to resort to the lowest blow of all against your ego.
And tell you you're just fucking boring. You make the site boring. You are that Faragista with his own pewter tankard hanging from a beam above the bar, giving forth to no-one in particular about your views on the EU.
There was a time you were better than that. I hope you refind your way next year.
I find the psychology of Leavers fascinating. They want their lies to be consequence free. They want their race baiting to be forgotten. But this isn't a game of cards where we shuffle the pack and move on to the next hand. The cards have memory.
For the next few years just about everything is going to be about Brexit. So the referendum campaign is going to be relevant for years. The lies, the pandering to xenophobia, that stuff.
So no, it won't be left behind. Long after those Leavers who thought leaving would be fun find the reality of it boring and frightening, Brexit will be dominating political conversation.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
And what do you think might happen if Miller, the Lib Dems et al succeed in overturning the referendum result?
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
This is why I pointed to the G7 summit in May as being crucial. If Trump comes over and says "Brexit-Shemexit - If it's too difficult just do a deal to stop it" where will it leave the British Right?
That wasn't what her case was about. Leavers already getting bored of parliamentary democracy I see.
(depending what the supreme court actually decides you mean)
They will find either that Parliament needs to be consulted or that it doesn't. If the former there will be an overwhelming vote in favour of triggering A50. If the latter then the point becomes moot.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
This is why I pointed to the G7 summit in May as being crucial. If Trump comes over and says "Brexit-Shemexit - If it's too difficult just do a deal to stop it" where will it leave the British Right?
That wasn't what her case was about. Leavers already getting bored of parliamentary democracy I see.
(depending what the supreme court actually decides you mean)
They will find either that Parliament needs to be consulted or that it doesn't. If the former there will be an overwhelming vote in favour of triggering A50. If the latter then the point becomes moot.
In the later case they will have found that leavers (or at least the PM) is exactly right about parliamentary democracy contrary to your suggestions above.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
This is why I pointed to the G7 summit in May as being crucial. If Trump comes over and says "Brexit-Shemexit - If it's too difficult just do a deal to stop it" where will it leave the British Right?
Electable
Yes, right-wing Remainers like Osborne, Hammond, Rudd, not to mention May will make a formidable election winning team.
"That wasn't what her case was about. Leavers already getting bored of parliamentary democracy I see."
I have no idea what you see, Mr. Topping, how can I? But who are these "leavers" of whom you speak? I voted to leave am I one who is bored of parliamentary democracy?
I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again.
In 22 days time the pumps will turn on for US shale gas and half of 'big oil' senior management will be in the administration, I wouldn't bet on prices staying high for long.
Isn't it in the interests of "'big oil' senior management" to have high oil prices? Low oil prices hurts "big oil".
"Credit for The Crown should go to the production company, not Netflix! It is Left Bank Pictures and Sony that made it happen, Netflix just purchased the rights. As Roger pointed out the other day, there is a lot of ex-BBC talent involved, but the BBC couldn't hold onto them. "
You make a very good point. The thing about the film industry is that it's 'an industry'. It's made up of somewhere between 100 and 150 different professions that are almost all highly skilled. The reputation of British crews actors and writers is extraordinarily high.
Big budget US movies are now routinely made here for the skill of the talent. It's not unusual to have US movies made over here using British actors playing Americans using well art directed British locations doubling as US cities. British directors and DOPs are the most sought after in the world. British studios and bulging at the seams
And this craft is learnt on TV and commercials. And at the heart of this is the BBC. The technical standards of their productions set the standard. You can always cut budgets and most people wont notice the difference. The story is the story. A grazing giraffe is a grazing giraffe But the difference is you wouldn't now have British studios bulging at the seams and British talent working in every country in the world
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
This is why I pointed to the G7 summit in May as being crucial. If Trump comes over and says "Brexit-Shemexit - If it's too difficult just do a deal to stop it" where will it leave the British Right?
Electable
Yes, right-wing Remainers like Osborne, Hammond, Rudd, not to mention May will make a formidable election winning team.
Compared to Corbyn, Abbott, McIRA, Watson, Eagle, Burgon, Lewis and Trickett, not to mention Lady Nugee I think they would be in with a chance
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
Remind me again who the Secretary of State was that introduced the rise?
Since there've been no takers, an easier question then: which party supplied the Secretary of State who introduced the tuition fees rise under the coalition government?
Your Cable-baiting question misses the point which is that the LibDems had already dropped their main campaign pledge during coalition negotiations. As Nick Clegg said, more or less in as many words, voters can't rely on LibDem manifesto promises because everything is up for negotiation the day after after polling day.
I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again.
In 22 days time the pumps will turn on for US shale gas and half of 'big oil' senior management will be in the administration, I wouldn't bet on prices staying high for long.
Isn't it in the interests of "'big oil' senior management" to have high oil prices? Low oil prices hurts "big oil".
People buying Russian or Saudi oil rather than US oil hurts it more I would have thought ?
Depends who you're talking about. Big oil and the US are not the same thing. Big oil like ExxonMobil, Chevron, Halliburton etc are global corporations with a global reach working with oil fields across the globe who benefit from high oil prices.
The US shale gas revolution has been the opposite of big oil. It has been lots of small corporations and American entrepreneurs unlocking the US's shale gas potential and driving down the oil price against the interests of big oil.
@williamglenn "where will it leave the British Right?"
You are at least consistent in the total crap you come up with. It will leave them in Britain, where they always were, working on regaining control of British laws and policy, as requested by the electorate. Brexit will not fall apart because of outside disinterest, only through lack of British will. There is no evidence that is dissipating. All the utterings of the government are consistent with being prepared for a hard Brexit if necessary, but hoping that continued very free trade can be negotiated.
And to stark_dawning's point, what is there left to say at this very moment on Brexit unless you are one of the few on the inside working on the position papers, in which case you damn well ought not to be posting here or elsewhere on any new elements to the process. The news cycle moving on does not mean that the will has dissipated.
"That wasn't what her case was about. Leavers already getting bored of parliamentary democracy I see."
I have no idea what you see, Mr. Topping, how can I? But who are these "leavers" of whom you speak? I voted to leave am I one who is bored of parliamentary democracy?
Hurst if you are unsure of whether you are bored of something or not then sadly I cannot help you. Why not test your boredom threshold first on a couple of simpler propositions.
That wasn't what her case was about. Leavers already getting bored of parliamentary democracy I see.
(depending what the supreme court actually decides you mean)
They will find either that Parliament needs to be consulted or that it doesn't. If the former there will be an overwhelming vote in favour of triggering A50. If the latter then the point becomes moot.
In the later case they will have found that leavers (or at least the PM) is exactly right about parliamentary democracy contrary to your suggestions above.
Exactly. Isn't it great that we can challenge and establish such principles in court.
"I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again."
Short of a major war in the Middle East, I very much doubt we will see oil anywhere near $100 again in our lifetime, Mr. G. The Septic "frackers" have slashed their costs of production, have huge reserves to tap into and are very nimble in getting new wells going. As the price rises so more of them will pile-in thus increasing production and keeping costs down.
Deep sea oil is going to be priced out, I suspect. The costs of exploration and extraction are just too great. Scotland's oil is a declining asset already well past its peak.
Hurst, of course and has had little or no impact on Scotland, apart from the speculators in Aberdeen who overpaid for property. However the point was it was made out to be such a burden at 100 and a disaster at 20 , we are back to 60 and the impact is next to nothing. Scotland was the only country on earth where oil was purported to be a burden by those who stole all the money. As we see , given the workers and money were mainly outside Scotland the changes are irrelevant. We have never benefitted and therefore had little to lose.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
This is why I pointed to the G7 summit in May as being crucial. If Trump comes over and says "Brexit-Shemexit - If it's too difficult just do a deal to stop it" where will it leave the British Right?
I don't quite understand you. In what way is Trump necessary for Brexit?
Frankly, going by the TTIP previously on offer, I'm far from convinced that we should be looking for a free trade deal with the US. Why can't we just work on current terms?
The biggest lie told in British electoral history was: you are only entering a common market, there will be no loss of soverereignty - as told to the British people in the EEC referendum of 1975.
I do hate to be a Eurobore, but I can't let that stand. In the biggest TV event of the 1975 campaign - a debate screened live on the Saturday night before the referendum and watched by 9 million people - Ted Heath said that what really mattered was 'moving beyond the nation state' and that as important as the economic arguments were, they were secondary.
You've been a victim of propaganda, but not from Ted Heath.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
This is why I pointed to the G7 summit in May as being crucial. If Trump comes over and says "Brexit-Shemexit - If it's too difficult just do a deal to stop it" where will it leave the British Right?
Electable
Yes, right-wing Remainers like Osborne, Hammond, Rudd, not to mention May will make a formidable election winning team.
I'm not sure the Lib Dems are in a position to give advice to anyone on that score, except perhaps Scottish Labour.
I don't quite understand you. In what way is Trump necessary for Brexit?
Because of the psychological blow it will deal to Farage and the loonier Atlanticists in the Tory party if Trump turns out not to share their disdain for the EU.
I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again.
In 22 days time the pumps will turn on for US shale gas and half of 'big oil' senior management will be in the administration, I wouldn't bet on prices staying high for long.
Isn't it in the interests of "'big oil' senior management" to have high oil prices? Low oil prices hurts "big oil".
People buying Russian or Saudi oil rather than US oil hurts it more I would have thought ?
Depends who you're talking about. Big oil and the US are not the same thing. Big oil like ExxonMobil, Chevron, Halliburton etc are global corporations with a global reach working with oil fields across the globe who benefit from high oil prices.
The US shale gas revolution has been the opposite of big oil. It has been lots of small corporations and American entrepreneurs unlocking the US's shale gas potential and driving down the oil price against the interests of big oil.
The hope (for Republicans) is that the oil men will be as ruthless for Uncle Sam as they were for their former employers. I will agree there is certainly the matter of their stocks and options to be got around some how, but assuming that is resolved satisfactorily is there any reason so suspect this wont be the case, they will be looking to make their mark in their new roles by gunning for the US of A ?
The biggest lie told in British electoral history was: you are only entering a common market, there will be no loss of soverereignty - as told to the British people in the EEC referendum of 1975.
I do hate to be a Eurobore, but I can't let that stand. In the biggest TV event of the 1975 campaign - a debate screened live on the Saturday night before the referendum and watched by 9 million people - Ted Heath said that what really mattered was 'moving beyond the nation state' and that as important as the economic arguments were, they were secondary.
You've been a victim of propaganda, but not from Ted Heath.
No question that we knew that we would move beyond a ‘common market’.
@ david herdson "In terms of the respective effects, Iraq was far more damaging than Suez."
LOL. One ended our nation's pretentions to be a top world power and pushed us firmly down to the second table, while simultaneously ending any international defence of colonialism, giving rise to a US-dominated international order, particularly in international organizations.
The other ... ??? Messed up and already messed up Middle East? Removed Labour from power (after a delay) for 3, 4, 5 elections/ever?
Just don't get how Iraq even comes close in significance, either to Britain or the world.
@philip_thompson Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
Remind me again who the Secretary of State was that introduced the rise?
Since there've been no takers, an easier question then: which party supplied the Secretary of State who introduced the tuition fees rise under the coalition government?
Your Cable-baiting question misses the point which is that the LibDems had already dropped their main campaign pledge during coalition negotiations. As Nick Clegg said, more or less in as many words, voters can't rely on LibDem manifesto promises because everything is up for negotiation the day after after polling day.
Although they did negotiate themselves the right to abstain and then still voted for the rise anyway! (And I'm sure it could have been negotiated to enable, say, the SoS for Education to lead the debate instead had the Lib Dems so chosen; Cable wasn't necessarily tied in).
But I was Cable-baiting in response to MrsB who said "Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it.", which is hardly a fair representation of the facts. And as you imply, the Lib Dems could (and should) have prioritised delivering on that promise over, say, the rise in the personal allowance (which would probably have been delivered at £10k anyway given how Osborne over-delivered anyway).
"Hurst if you are unsure of whether you are bored of something or not then sadly I cannot help you. Why not test your boredom threshold first on a couple of simpler propositions."
Well, old chap, I am not bored of parliamentary democracy, so I am in fact the counter- example that proves your original statement false. It was in the hope that you had something more to offer that I asked, "Who are these "leavers" of whom you speak?"
I am, I am sorry to say, very bored of PB.com. Thread after thread of the same small number of people saying what they have said goodness knows how many times before has become tedious beyond endurance. I hope that the site will pick-up in the new year and revert to something it used to be.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
This is why I pointed to the G7 summit in May as being crucial. If Trump comes over and says "Brexit-Shemexit - If it's too difficult just do a deal to stop it" where will it leave the British Right?
An interesting prospect and not impossible: now Farage is out of the way, Trump could easily do a volte-face on Brexit if the pro-Britain-in-EU forces of the US establishment get his ear. How would the British Right react? They'd declare Trump a two-bit uneducated hoodlum who couldn't even win a majority.
Leavers seem irked by my raising the £350 million a week for the NHS in the context of front page news about health crises. The trouble is that if you make preposterous promises, people have a habit of remembering them.
I don't think they were irked they merely pointed out that "We haven't left yet"
Mind you everyone is still waiting for the instant disasters prophesied by project fear for Day 1 after a leave vote. They are also remembered though rarely if ever mentioned now by Remainers
I think .
.................
No mention of project fear again then either? How unsurprising?
The basics of this are that Leave told a straight lie with forward effects. If you're telling me that rubbing the magic lamp isn't going to make my wishes come true for many years after you promised me that my wish would come true, I'm more likely to throw the lamp away than release the genie.
It is pointless even discussing this with you as you just wilfully refuse to accept any point but your own, refuse to accept the Remains lies in Project fear which also have not yet happened and that amongst other things ......in a nutshell .......is why people voted en mass to leave.
You want the genie to produce while you keep a cork in the spout. Well done!! this is taking utter hypocrisy to a whole new level.
Good day sir.
I will laugh so hard if the first Budget after we Leave actually does put £350m per week extra into the NHS...
It will have to deliver the fabled £350 million, partly as the voters of Leave are the ones most dependent on the NHS, and partly because the NHS is facing a grim future without substantial investment.
While the free marketeers would regard the collapse of the NHS to be a BOGOF special for Brexit, the voters are not likely to see it the same.
That bus slogan has the potential to be the #Edstone for the next election, though helpfully concise.
The £350m promise was the biggest lie ever told in our electoral history.
Their supporters, therefore, are liars. This will be told and re-told thousands of time, as it should be.
The biggest lie ever in our electoral history? Bearing in mind it goes back quite a long way!
It wasn't even the biggest lie of the referendum campaign.
Comments
However this same approach does not ever apply if you happened to vote leave because as is shown daily on here and previously you are all apparently just tagged as xenophobic little Englanders. ( and Walesers I suppose as they voted out as well)
Cherry picking at its very best.
Second, is it acceptable to call posters liars? Does Smithson censorship (ie ; 'remoaners') only work in one direction?
President Putin says no American diplomats will be expelled in retaliation for US expulsion of Russian envoys
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/814811768702767104
or from tariffs?
When was the last time such expulsions got the 'turned the other cheek' response?
On that score, Clegg's tuition fees has to rank pretty highly (although whether that was a lie as such - something said which was known to be untrue - is open to question. Then again, the same could be said of the £350m for the NHS.
You lost, these things happen. Wailing and sobs of despair won't help you.
The moving finger has writ. Man-up (or whatever the current phrase is).
You take your support where you can find it. There are saints and sinners among voters on either side.
Nigel Lawson claims he may have killed Gaitskell by arguing in favour of Europe.
[Gaitskell] was passionately opposed, and I [Lawson] was in favour of it. He became more and more exercised, his face got redder and redder, and I was afraid he was about to burst a blood vessel. Then, a few days later, and still only in his fifties, he dropped down dead. I was overcome with guilt, fearing that I may have precipitated his untimely end. Perhaps my present stance on the EU is some kind of penance.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2013/11/nigel-lawson-did-i-kill-hugh-gaitskell/
Until Leave come to terms with the way in which they won, this country is in for a grim time.
What about Tony Blair's pledge before elected of ensuring an "ethical foreign policy"? You think he honoured that?
Tony Blair's pledge before 1997 of "no tuition fees" then upon getting elected in 1997 he introduced tuition fees?
Tony Blair's pledge before 2001 of "no top up tuition fees" as they were then called? Then upon getting elected in 2001 topping up tuition fees to £3000? Deja vu.
Tony Blair's pledge before 2005 of a referendum on the European Constitution. Subsequently rebranded the Lisbon Treaty and ratified without a referendum by Brown.
Nick Clegg's pledge before 2010 of "no tuition fees" then upon getting elected immediately tripling tuition fees to £9000? Bit of deja vu all over again here.
Or how about Gordon Brown's repeated pledge in 1997, 2001, 2005 and other times to "abolish boom and bust"? Followed by the very biggest bust since the Great Depression of 1929?
Or there was Gordon Brown's pledge of "prudence" only to have maxed out the national credit cards prior to the bust leading to the biggest debt crisis we've ever seen in the modern era?
That's just off the top of my head.
"this country is in for a grim time."
the country isn't, but you may be if you don't recover a little poise. Whistle a merry tune - see if that helps.
Always happy to help.
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/814815022169866240
Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it. Not quite the same thing.
The LibDems had an opt-out, negotiated as part of the coalition, but declined to use it.
"Iraq War II under Blair is the clear winner - it destroyed faith in politics in a way I'll never forget ..."
Absolutely, Miss Plato, it was inconceivable to me that the Prime Minister would deceive Parliament and the Country about such an important matter as going to war.
But @Morris_Dancer do please check your results are appearing as they should. When I voted (after 1200) it showed me the results & claimed that 100% (3) had voted B.
There is a serious chance that your inflexible and possibly minority view and interpretation is preventing your normally open, sharp and questioning mind from seeing the far more varied and less rigid interpretations that 90% of the population have adopted.
In my world I only know one person who gets anywhere near to sharing your dogmatic intransigence.
Clegg knew when he made the pledge the only way he'd get into office was as junior partner in a coalition too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36040060
Why Vote Leave's £350m weekly EU cost claim is wrong Guardian 10 June 2016
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/may/23/does-the-eu-really-cost-the-uk-350m-a-week
Fact check: 'EU membership costs Britain £350 million a week' ITV news 9 June 2016
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-09/fact-check-eu-membership-costs-britain-350-million-a-week/
All that from searching "350 million nhs fact check". From memory, BBC radios 2 and 4 hammered the point even harder than these links do. The claim that it changed the outcome is just laughable.
Anyway, I thought all Leave voters (including the many black/asian ones) were rabid, hate-filled racists who were going to vote Leave on that basis anyway. So how can the NHS claim be said to have made a difference to anything?
Incidentally, "Skynet" is not just the name of the fictional AI, but is also the name of a real-life set of British military satellites, and the latter name predates the former by at least ten years.
https://www.wired.com/2015/05/nsa-actual-skynet-program/
http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/man/man97.htm
An ethical foreign policy? Depends on your ethics. Remember that before Iraq, Britain under Labour had intervened in several foreign conflicts, including Kosovo, Afghanistan and Sierra Leone. See John Kaempfer's book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blairs-Wars-John-Kampfner/dp/0743248309
The point about Blair -- often missed by his critics -- is that he did put the controversial stuff in the manifesto, if only for the cynical reason that few voters would ever read it but the whips could use it to pressure recalcitrant backbenchers.
I get the feeling that the British Right is getting bored with Brexit now - the campaign was jolly good fun, but the grind and tedium of the post-Brexit settlement is proving too much like hard work. Look at the Spectator at the moment, and it's clear that Trump is the new fascination. Brexit is now someone else's problem.
"I see Oil heading for $60 a barrel, will not be long till it is expensive enough to be a burden to Scotland again."
Short of a major war in the Middle East, I very much doubt we will see oil anywhere near $100 again in our lifetime, Mr. G. The Septic "frackers" have slashed their costs of production, have huge reserves to tap into and are very nimble in getting new wells going. As the price rises so more of them will pile-in thus increasing production and keeping costs down.
Deep sea oil is going to be priced out, I suspect. The costs of exploration and extraction are just too great. Scotland's oil is a declining asset already well past its peak.
Unusual to see such a blatant witch-hunt proposed outside Africa these days. As it is seriously unlawful for anyone to prove to you which way they voted, you'll need a talented witch-finder to sniff them out. Unless you think that all those, and only those, who fly flags of St George during soccer tournaments are to blame.
I have no idea what you see, Mr. Topping, how can I? But who are these "leavers" of whom you speak? I voted to leave am I one who is bored of parliamentary democracy?
"Credit for The Crown should go to the production company, not Netflix! It is Left Bank Pictures and Sony that made it happen, Netflix just purchased the rights. As Roger pointed out the other day, there is a lot of ex-BBC talent involved, but the BBC couldn't hold onto them. "
You make a very good point. The thing about the film industry is that it's 'an industry'. It's made up of somewhere between 100 and 150 different professions that are almost all highly skilled. The reputation of British crews actors and writers is extraordinarily high.
Big budget US movies are now routinely made here for the skill of the talent. It's not unusual to have US movies made over here using British actors playing Americans using well art directed British locations doubling as US cities. British directors and DOPs are the most sought after in the world. British studios and bulging at the seams
And this craft is learnt on TV and commercials. And at the heart of this is the BBC. The technical standards of their productions set the standard. You can always cut budgets and most people wont notice the difference. The story is the story. A grazing giraffe is a grazing giraffe But the difference is you wouldn't now have British studios bulging at the seams and British talent working in every country in the world
The US shale gas revolution has been the opposite of big oil. It has been lots of small corporations and American entrepreneurs unlocking the US's shale gas potential and driving down the oil price against the interests of big oil.
You are at least consistent in the total crap you come up with. It will leave them in Britain, where they always were, working on regaining control of British laws and policy, as requested by the electorate. Brexit will not fall apart because of outside disinterest, only through lack of British will. There is no evidence that is dissipating. All the utterings of the government are consistent with being prepared for a hard Brexit if necessary, but hoping that continued very free trade can be negotiated.
And to stark_dawning's point, what is there left to say at this very moment on Brexit unless you are one of the few on the inside working on the position papers, in which case you damn well ought not to be posting here or elsewhere on any new elements to the process. The news cycle moving on does not mean that the will has dissipated.
As we see , given the workers and money were mainly outside Scotland the changes are irrelevant. We have never benefitted and therefore had little to lose.
Frankly, going by the TTIP previously on offer, I'm far from convinced that we should be looking for a free trade deal with the US. Why can't we just work on current terms?
You've been a victim of propaganda, but not from Ted Heath.
LOL. One ended our nation's pretentions to be a top world power and pushed us firmly down to the second table, while simultaneously ending any international defence of colonialism, giving rise to a US-dominated international order, particularly in international organizations.
The other ... ??? Messed up and already messed up Middle East? Removed Labour from power (after a delay) for 3, 4, 5 elections/ever?
Just don't get how Iraq even comes close in significance, either to Britain or the world.
But I was Cable-baiting in response to MrsB who said "Nick Clegg did not triple tuition fees. The Conservatives tripled them and under collective cabinet responsibility he felt he had to go along with it.", which is hardly a fair representation of the facts. And as you imply, the Lib Dems could (and should) have prioritised delivering on that promise over, say, the rise in the personal allowance (which would probably have been delivered at £10k anyway given how Osborne over-delivered anyway).
"Hurst if you are unsure of whether you are bored of something or not then sadly I cannot help you. Why not test your boredom threshold first on a couple of simpler propositions."
Well, old chap, I am not bored of parliamentary democracy, so I am in fact the counter- example that proves your original statement false. It was in the hope that you had something more to offer that I asked, "Who are these "leavers" of whom you speak?"
I am, I am sorry to say, very bored of PB.com. Thread after thread of the same small number of people saying what they have said goodness knows how many times before has become tedious beyond endurance. I hope that the site will pick-up in the new year and revert to something it used to be.